April 22, 2024 • 56 mins
In this episode, we're joined by Mel Homan, a fellow OT who has turned her experiences with burnout into a transformative program for others. Whether you're an OT, a helping professional, or anyone navigating the challenges of a demanding career, this episode is packed with insights just for you. We share invaluable insights on overcoming hustle, nurturing our mental health, and the significance of building strong community ties.
Mel is extending an invitation for you to join her Facebook group, Building Fulfillment and Transformation, which is a great place to continue these discussions on getting out of burnout and you can learn more about her offerings at melhoman.com.
If you are an OT...
who has been listening and today’s discussion resonated with you, I’d love to know about it. A really great way to do this is to share the episode Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn and tag me in the post with any points on what you found helpful about it.
If you’re looking for more ways to enhance your vitality and well-being, I invite you to explore my ACTivate Vitality program. It’s designed specifically to create a community of support for OT business owners like you, aiming to get out of the things that hook us into overworking like self-doubt, perfectionism, and fear of failure and get on with loving how you live and work. https://www.balanceworks.online/avprogram
Remember, you’re not alone in your journey. Let’s continue to build on what we’ve learned today and support each other along the way. You learn from the people around you so make sure you’re surrounding yourself with media and peers who nudge you in the direction you want to be going. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this episode with a colleague or friend who might benefit from our conversation.
Jane would love to help carry some of the load in your practice. Check out the features that could make your life easier by booking a call with Jane. Listeners of The BRAVE OT Podcast will receive a one month grace period on a new Jane account by using the code VITALITY at the time of signup.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
To some degree, it's that distresstolerance because often when we are
(00:02):
alone with our thoughts all the thingswe don't want to deal with arise.
And it's, it's that process andI have to do that regularly.
And sometimes I lose track, right?
Sometimes days, weeks cango by and I haven't done it.
It always comes to the surface eventually.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
(00:23):
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
(00:46):
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
In today's episode, we'rejoined by Mel Homan.
She's a fellow occupational therapist whohas turned her experiences and burnout
into a transformative program for others.
We'll discuss how to step away from hustleculture, the importance of grounding
(01:09):
in our daily activities in our dailylives, and the power of community in
fostering recovery and personal growth.
Whether you're an OT, another typeof helping professional or someone
who was drawn to this podcast episodebecause of your own burnout journey.
This episode is packedwith insights just for you.
(01:33):
Before we jump into today's episode, let'sgive a shout out to our sponsor, Jane,
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(02:16):
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Thank you, Mel, for joining me.
I'm really excited to have youhere on the Brave OT podcast.
Absolutely.
I'm excited to be here.
Thanks for inviting me along.
(02:37):
My pleasure.
For context, you and I, for the listeners,you and I had a conversation last week
where I put out some feelers about mentalhealth, private practice, and asking
some questions and a lot of the content.
You and I ended up booking a chatjust to discuss and found we had
lots of overlaps and synergiesand ways of approaching the world.
(02:59):
So I invited you here totalk about those things.
Yeah, that's right.
It was exciting to connect witha fellow kindred spirit, I think.
And that's, that gives you a lot of joyin life when you have a meeting of souls.
Totally.
I often feel when I read your postson social media that I think, ah, yes,
yes, yes, yes, I so agree because we'reboth we're both supporting people to
(03:23):
get off of that burnout cycle and getout of the hustle culture and resist the
pressure to be productive, productive,productive, achieve, achieve, achieve.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I echo that very deeply.
Partly because I considermyself a recovering hustler who
practices daily practices toremain in recovery essentially.
(03:45):
So that's where, that's what sparks joyfor me is working with people on that.
Yeah, I love that you admit to thatneeding to work at it because I
definitely in my own work that defaultof like it just kind of I ended up
defaulting there over and over again,and having to actually pull myself out
because, and I think there's so many
(04:07):
reasons for that, right?
we're on social media talking to people.
And so you see what appearsto be everybody else going
higher and higher and higher.
And then whether you want to or not,your nervous system is responding
to what you're seeing, what you'reconsuming, what you're picking up.
And we look at our own truth.
And compare our own kind of low light reelto someone else's highlight reel and just
(04:32):
it sneaks up on us at a more foundationallevel and not an intentional level.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know if this is somethingthat you find useful, but I do a
lot of grounding because when we areworking online a lot, you can build a
very artificial concept of the world.
So I very much focus on the people, myneighbors, who's physically around me,
(04:52):
what are people living, how is lifegoing, what does the world look like?
Because it can become incrediblydistorted when you're online.
And something I love and that I foundwith my work online is the concept around
latent energy, which is that being aroundpeople gives you the energy and the
boom and the drive to do what you do.
And you're around similar minded people.
(05:13):
You're wanting to buildtowards the same kind of ethos.
And that's why it's so great to meetwith people and connect with people
like yourself, because we have asimilar ethos and it builds us up.
It helps us collaborate andunderstand and be authentic.
And yeah, I consider myself the onewho has to tap into things every
day to stay on the right track.
(05:33):
And that's why I'm sopassionate about what I do.
Yeah, and I think that makes you moreskilled at working at it and helping
people who are struggling with it becauseif you didn't have that experience, if
you couldn't relate, and you just wereeasily Zen all the time without effort.
You're actually no use to the peoplewho need to learn, how to get from
(05:55):
that dysregulated or state or hustleor burnout to where they'd like to be.
You just were there.
You have nothing to teach.
Absolutely.
And for me, I'm a kind of a Myers Briggs,ESTJ, goal driven, go, go, go person.
And it has taken me until kind ofpretty much my 40th year to really
(06:16):
recognize that that's been, that'sa wonderful blessing in some ways
and a terrible curse in others.
And actually there is, it's ajoy and a blessing to be found
in understanding yourself.
And then connecting with your feelingsand understanding more about that,
because that was the piece I was missing.
Other people are missing differentpieces, but for me, that was the
big piece of work I had to do.
(06:36):
And I still have to do that as adaily practice as much as I can.
So what does that look like?
Yeah, so I've had to,I've slowed life down.
So, you know, I stillam a very early riser.
I like to get my hardcore workout in.
That's always been a partof my start of my day.
And that's something that brings me joy.
That's not something I sayother people need to do.
(06:56):
But it's really about stoppingregularly and thinking and
feeling, actively choosing to feel.
That's really difficult.
You don't really want to do that.
In fact, I was listeningto a podcast yesterday.
Especially if it feels yucky.
Oh, yeah.
I'm too busy.
I want to get things done.
Yeah.
I was listening to a study about, theyput people in a room and they gave
(07:20):
them 30 minutes for their own thoughts.
Or they could shock themselveswith a machine in the corner.
80 percent chose to shockthemselves because, yeah, being
left with your own thoughts.
And I think one of the biggestchallenges and most wonderful things
we can do is be alone in our thoughtsand manage that and experience it and
feel how we feel and think it through.
(07:43):
To some degree, it's that distresstolerance because often when we are
alone with our thoughts all the thingswe don't want to deal with arise.
And it's, it's that process andI have to do that regularly.
And sometimes I lose track, right?
Sometimes days, weeks cango by and I haven't done it.
It always comes to the surface eventually.
And
that's why it has tobe as much as possible
a daily thing.
Oh, that's so valuable becauseso much of when people are in
(08:07):
unhealthy patterns, it's driven bythe avoidance of a negative feeling.
Absolutely.
Right.
That I don't want to feel bored.
I don't want to feel hungry.
I want to feel more to feel that,I don't want to feel stressed.
I'm going to, maybe they'll keepthemselves too busy to avoid
feeling any of the other feelings.
(08:28):
Right.
And they're not in charge.
Their feelings are in charge.
And I think, you know, as aclassic, feelings that matter,
get things done for a while.
And, actually wars havebeen started from feelings.
Global changes come from feelings ofpride being hurt or, being undermined,
or a whole range of things, right?
A lot of it stems from feelings,so they are absolutely pinnacle
(08:49):
for us to, we must pay attention.
And that's something Ihave learned the hard way.
And that I like to hopefully getpeople ahead of where I got to so
they can maybe not go through thechallenges I went through before I
start to connect with that much more.
Yeah, for sure.
Now, we jumped straight into theconversation, and I forgot the part
where you tell us about what you do.
That's right, yeah, I know, we'realready really excited and on it, right?
(09:12):
Yeah, so it's, yeah, I, at the moment,I run 12 week burnout recovery programs,
I've cultivated a curriculum, it'scome from research and study and
personal experience and longstandingexperience in mental health and
various therapies I'm trained in.
And I take people through a curriculumthat brings them from burnout and
(09:33):
depletion to hope and renewal.
And by the end of it, they have aroadmap of the steps to take in life
to maintain being out of burnout.
Which is the challenge.
We don't want to just be out ofburnout for a period of time.
We want that to be along term life change.
So that's something I've developedand absolutely feel passionate about
and love to do absolutely love to do
(09:53):
it.
I love that.
And who is your ideal client?
Really it's someone who'sin a little bit of crisis.
Maybe they've just come to arealization that maybe the direction
of travel in their life isn'twhere they want to go anymore, but
they're not quite sure what to do.
And they are wanting to takesteps, but they're not sure
what those steps look like.
(10:13):
And I guess I get a bitof a mix of demographics.
I get a lot of public sector workers.
I have a couple of, more executiverole people, but really the common
theme is this, they've hit aroadblock in their life and they
don't know which direction to go in.
And that stuckness is depletingthem, overwhelming them, and maybe
they're burnt out because of theirjob, their life circumstances, or
(10:36):
even mindset and personal challenges.
So, people come from all walks oflife, but they have that commonality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Before you started this coaching,what was your background?
what kind of work wereyou doing before that?
Yeah, I've had a, mostly kind of mentalhealth background in occupational
therapy, so different areas.
(10:58):
Obviously, I'm a Brit, as you mayhear from my accent, and I work
mostly in the United Kingdom.
But then I relocated to theUnited States and worked.
I've worked in, I've workedin the United Kingdom.
I've worked in schools as well.
I also had a bit of a private practice.
I worked for a small therapy company.
I developed a blanket to sail,I've done quite a lot of things.
And then I moved to the UnitedStates and spent some time working
in behavioral health and in schools.
(11:19):
Before kind of making, and I've been onthis meandering journey for some time.
Yeah.
But then fully stepped into that andreally have just felt that is what
I'm supposed to be doing in life.
And there's nothing more pleasingand doing what you feel you're
supposed to be doing in life Yeah.
I'm thinking about that quote,not all who wander are lost.
Absolutely.
(11:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You weren't lost at any point inthat journey you were exploring.
I was exploring and I, I think, Imean, I think much like you that
exploration has led me to where I amand it's been a beautiful journey.
And I think facing fear and doubt hasbeen part of that journey and overcoming
my own self limiting beliefs, my ownchallenges has been a huge piece of that.
(12:02):
And as you know, right, when youstep into the entrepreneurial fields,
where you're just stepping out on theedges and the margins, you have to be
strong in yourself to take that step.
Yeah.
It doesn't mean you have to haveeverything figured out, but you have
to have raised your self belief enoughand your confidence enough to do it
because many people unintentionally,we'll have that flicker in their eye of
(12:23):
doubt or confusion about what is that?
What do you do again?
What is it you're doing on the internet?
And you have to be able tostand and be like, this is what
I do and this is why I do it.
So I think that kind of entrepreneurialpiece has always been within me and
I imagine it's always been in you.
Carlyn, do you feel like, kind ofon your journey, has that been part
of what's been going on for you?
(12:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I think that about all of the waysI've adjusted my niche over the years,
it's been based on my own journey.
And so much of, I think that the bestway to learn where we need to grow
personally is to start a business.
Yeah.
Cracks are where the insecurities are.
(13:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's a growth experience, isn't it?
When you step into business, it really is.
And the skillsets required are verydifferent, there's no doubt about it.
And there's no way to learn thingsother than jumping in and doing it.
just start.
Yeah.
Let's see where you go.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you and I are both
a bit anti perfectionist.
I call myself a good enoughist.
(13:25):
Oh, me
too.
Yeah, I kind of pride myself alittle bit on it because Yeah.
Otherwise, if you know, taking a coupleof steps in the wrong direction is
better than taking no steps at all.
You have to have momentum and movement.
And if you take steps, even inthe wrong direction, you're going
to learn and grow and experience.
And that's what you need for development.
(13:45):
Comfort does not grow you.
And so you have to have failingsand challenges to grow you.
And part of my journey has beenagain, redefining failure to myself.
And I've had to fail.
multiple things to trulyunderstand that it's, this is okay.
This isn't a part of my identityand this is a wonderful experience.
(14:06):
And I find, I'm very confident you findthis too, that many of the people we
work with are struggling with theirfear of failure, they are struggling
with what that would mean about whothey are and what people would think.
There's definitely, you can link the,intelli- like, well, go all the way back
to the good girl, who's intelligent, who'san achiever, who works really hard, who
(14:31):
gets lots of feedback for being successfuland effective and all of those things,
forgiving, And that perfectionism then,that kind of achieving, leaning into
more perfectionism when the going getstough, that those come to us with burnout
almost always.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And when your identity is completelybuilt into that way of life and
(14:53):
thinking and so is your family's,it's really hard to think differently.
And the place, I mean, I love to getinspiration from listening to podcasts,
other people online like yourself,but something I found really good to
listen to is the Diary of a CEO podcast.
Because, oh, Steven Bartlett isthe CEO in the United Kingdom
and he interviews other CEOs.
And it is incredibly raw and authentic.
(15:15):
But when you listen to the journeysof these different people, they
are from all walks of life.
You know, some of them dropped out ofschool and got into drugs and didn't
have any qualifications and then blah,blah, found their ways to success.
Some of them followed this traditionalroute, but many, many, many of them
quit something, pivoted in their lifein a different direction, Risked losing
(15:35):
things, Just they, they stepped out.
And I think, I mean, I'm, I am thatclassic good girl, I was just good at
school and I went to university and Igot my degree and then I worked really
hard and there's nothing wrong with thatat all, except that it's just one set
of values and one way of doing things.
And the more I exposed myself to allthis difference, the more I learned that
(15:56):
journeys can be so beautiful and varied,and there's so much power in that.
So I like to fill my mind withthese resources to, build and grow
my own understanding of the world.
I
love that.
I think about, I did a YouTube videomore probably two years ago maybe.
And it was about thinking aboutmindfulness as a traveler.
(16:18):
And so I think about the way I prefer totravel is to have a loose sense of where
I, what I'd like to see of a place, butleave room for magic, leave room for
exploration, leave room to be able tostop at the festival that you happened
upon, leave room, like you want to haveenough security that you kind of know
generally where you're going or have somehotel reservations somewhere along the
(16:40):
way, But leave room for that exploration.
And anytime I'm traveling.
I'm experiencing the moment.
I'm there in the present moment,listening to the sounds and the music
and the language and the bustle andtasting the food and smelling the
smells and seeing these unique sites.
And if we can live more of our lives, ourbusinesses, our day to day lives, if we
(17:05):
can live that way in, in more ways whereyou're kind of letting go of this sort
of sense of, well, it's about gettingto a specific destination, you'll get
to some amazing destinations if you letthat exploration be, perhaps better than
you knew was there before you got there.
A hundred percent.
I love that because I'm very similarto you in terms of the perspective on
(17:26):
travel, and I like to not schedule orplan too much, but just, you know, enough
to know you've got a bed to sleep inand what you want to see, like you said.
But I spent time living abroad, alittle bit of time in Argentina.
I spent time living in France and,for me, I love to get into the
underbelly of a culture and unpickthe values of that culture, right?
Because we are so tuned in thinkingour own culture's values are correct.
(17:50):
And I love to unpick that, tochallenge my own perceptions of
how something should be, right?
It can be so vastly different.
And one of the things I lovedin Argentina was that they, you
know, they were not scheduled.
Our culture it's highly relational.
So if you bump into somebody in England,we often would be like, oh no, look away.
I don't have time to talkto this person right now.
(18:12):
But in Argentina, they're like,hey, let's go grab coffee right now.
And then you talk for three hours.
It's very immediate and relational.
And I valued that beautifulcomponent of that country.
So I feel like that is something that wecan use to enrich our lives all the time.
Oh, That's so good.
you were in the U.K., U.S.
(18:33):
You're coaching for burnout.
Are you practicing as amental health OT in the U.S.
as well?
Yeah, I have a small private practicein my local area, where I tend to do,
mental health OT with adults, teens,and I have a master's degree in sensory
integration, so I use that as well.
(18:53):
Often I find it's a big overlap withpeople that are having some sensory
challenges and obviously experiencingthe world, in a highly anxious
state or feeling quite depressed.
I work with individualsin that, way as well.
So I like to carry both, butI consider all of it to be OT.
In reality, and I think I'vetouched on this with you, is
about how we talk about OT, right?
(19:15):
And how we use language,to convey what we do.
And for me, the Burnout RecoveryProgram is essentially OT.
And many of the components of OT, butI use language that more people can
follow and understand and identify with.
So if somebody signs up, let's sayfrom Canada, and wants to see you for
(19:35):
burnout, would there be obstacles interms of defining it as OT or not OT?
I don't think so because I keepthe two components separate.
One is very much under coachingand I'm just in the middle
of completing a differentaccreditation for that specifically.
And then the other is kindof custom to the OT domain.
(19:56):
But I also am, licensed in the UnitedKingdom as an OT, which I think also
provides an extra string to my bow.
Yeah, I think it is a complexarea in terms of it's, in
terms of how we define it.
But I do, I sit the recovery program underthe umbrella of coaching and I sit the OT
mental health, specificallyin the OT mental health.
(20:16):
Yeah, it is really tricky because,the OT advocate in me, is saying
on the one hand, we're OTs throughand through in everything we do.
Yeah.
And why not allow us to step intothese international, audiences
standing fully in our OTness as wesupport people on a larger scale.
(20:37):
And there's sort of thosejurisdictional limitations where,
where we can't like, it'shard to regulate that.
It's hard to license that.
And I can appreciate that a lot ofthe regulations were created before
we were so internationally connected.
even five years ago, we weren'tas connected as we are now.
Sure, sure.
And I think for me, this hasbeen highlighted mostly from
(20:59):
being in the United States.
This wasn't really a barrier tomy practice in the United Kingdom.
And I've been on a fast trackof learning, OT in the U.S.
I suppose.
And still have much to learn but I alsohave businesses registered in the...
it's all very complicated.
Yeah, Yeah, for sure.
It is complicated.
And I think it's an evolving scene.
I definitely would love for allof this work, for us to be able to
(21:21):
stand in OT and all of this work.
And then at the same time, I don't wantto hold back and only coach clients in the
provinces where I'm allowed to practice.
I've got clients all over the world.
That's important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I do too.
And I like to have that, thatglobal reach, I really don't
want to turn people away.
And that's why I've createdlike two separate streams.
(21:44):
But I'm sure that's going tocontinue evolving and changing
as things change, right.
Yeah, and I think it's importantbecause it's increasing visibility,
the louder we be about increasingvisibility for OT, and if we're doing
so responsibly, it can be, it canreally help kind of progress things.
Help increase that visibility of OT,help people understand OT and I think
(22:07):
that there's room for that and we'renot quite there yet because all of our
regulatory bodies haven't quite figuredout how we can continue to regulate.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We can absolutely just keep campaigningthat they move forward with progression, I
think is, is the hope.
Yeah, totally.
And then where we stand then responsiblybecause I too have my two separated.
(22:31):
And so that I've very clearly documentedand get feedback from my local regulatory
body on a regular basis to about, okay,well, where is the blurry line and what,
how here's I'm trying to do in the absenceof a clear distinction and, but also
proving that professional responsibility.
Right.
Yeah.
At the same time, because Idon't want to lose my OT license.
(22:55):
I very much want to continue to be an OT.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Are the challenges in Canada for you?
I definitely feel that in Canada it'smuch easier to work in mental health, much
like it probably was for you in the UK.
Yeah, I mean, the difference inhow it operates between the U.K.
and the U.S.
is huge.
It's huge.
(23:15):
Really huge.
So that's been a huge learning curve.
But yeah, I get the impressionthat OT is more prevalent in the
field of mental health in Canada.
It is.
And like it, it's very, very commonto be able to get a mental health
OT job, but I don't want one.
I don't want a job.
I think I'm essentially unemployableat this stage of independence.
I feel that, I feel that,
(23:35):
yeah.
And I think, do you think that'spartly because, did you hit a
point where you felt that you'retired of systems a little bit?
Yes, it was exactly that.
And you know, it's a funny, I was tiredof redundant paperwork, for instance,
like document something in threedifferent places and then recount it
(23:58):
in my statistics at the end of the day.
And then kind of like that I wasspending, it felt like about half
of the day, not serving clients.
And then also having so many obstaclesto doing the right thing was really hard.
And so those were frustrating things,but I navigated them because I was
working in home care in my last job.
And I navigated them because I stillhad that freedom and flexibility of
(24:22):
location and time that I would go outand see my clients, but I could also
work from my kitchen table in between.
I could, I could move my breaks around andgo and drop off the kids and pick them up.
And I had that flexibility or even beable to squeeze in an appointment during
the day by moving my breaks aroundor scheduling around those things.
So that flexibility made it okay, butthere came a point, actually, that was
(24:44):
a tipping point that just kind of tippedthat discomfort of staying the same versus
the discomfort of leaving, and therewas a requirement to sign in and out at
815 and 415 at an office that wasn'tnear my home or area that I was working.
And I was like, oop.
Yup.
Nope.
I think that tip, I think that tippingpoint is fantastic and painful and hard,
(25:08):
but that tipping point is powerful becauseactually when we sit, when things are
just ticking along, okay, we keep goingin something that somewhat feels mediocre.
And when we hit that tipping point oflike, this is an absolute no for me now.
We are then sufficientlywilling to jump off the cliff
and see if we're ready to fly.
And that is almost the point whereI want clients to be at, right?
(25:30):
Because that was a, I had a similarexperience where I just actually realized
like, I just could no longer work insystems that did not serve people well.
Where I could not deliver therapy in theway that I knew it needed to be delivered.
And where I did not have autonomy, andto be honest, that, that came crashing
towards me as I moved to the UnitedStates, because there is a huge increase
(25:53):
in paperwork and regulation in terms of,this is a different health system, right?
And I just thought, this is justnot where my soul is happy anymore.
It's just not what feeds me.
And I started to listen to that andthat was the tipping point for me.
And I started to think what willfeed me, instead of doing what was
the right thing or what would fit.
Or what works, or what fits my skill set.
(26:16):
I just broke it all away.
And that, I'm sure you, you hadthis similar experience, right,
where then you were like, actually,the world's my oyster now.
I can do so much.
I have so much reach.
You know what I love about what you'vejust described is that it circles back
to something you said earlier is thatyou had to pause and feel it like that
(26:36):
there was that sense offeeling, did it feel heavy?
Did it feel constricting?
Did you feel, you know, like at oddswith your values and that pause to
feel rather than just busy throughit or quit and find another job
or find a superficial solution.
Right.
And I think I've been busying throughlife for a long time and, you know,
(26:58):
just making logical choices, right?
That fits this, and this fits that, andthat'll fit my times picking the kids
up and taking them to this activity.
You know, just, at no point didI say, what does my soul want?
What do I need?
And when I hit that point,I start to listen to myself.
That's when, even if I even saw a job Ithought, no, I just, I actually can't,
(27:20):
I feel physically sick at this idea now.
It's just, I'm gone, I've gone somewhereelse inside of me now where this is
not where I'm going to be at anymore.
And I think that can feel terrifying,but actually I just felt this huge,
like a wall came down and I justsaw the opportunity before me, like
the world is full of opportunity andpeople and connections and beauty.
(27:42):
And when you flip to that.
It's amazing.
And just to give some context, andI say this to my clients, they can't
believe that, But yeah, it wasn'tthat long ago where I was in constant
illness, like virus after virus aftervirus, constant exhaustion, insomnia,
and fatigue, and really quite, sort ofa mild level of depression, just not
(28:05):
feeling life, and life is beautiful.
If you
we're told you can't wake uptomorrow unless you give me
a million dollars right now.
You would want to be ableto give that million dollars
because you want another day.
And so I try, I mean, it sounds verydramatic, but I try and be like,
yeah, I'm going to, I get another day.
This is awesome.
You know, really flip that perception.
(28:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, I just feel superexcited most of the time.
That is so good.
I think OTs, we are excellent atidentifying where the problems lie
and solving problems creatively.
And that makes us reallygood entrepreneurs.
And I've talked about this on thepodcast before, there are actually
(28:46):
like eight different traits of goodentrepreneurs that OTs possess.
And when we can see that, when we cansee that we can see where something could
be better and where if somebody made asmall tweak or a small thing that many
of those solutions can be businessesand ways of doing things and ways of
(29:07):
creating flexibility in our own lives.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think that was the crunch pointwhen you're working in systems, right.
And you can speak differently or better.
I think this is an interesting reflection,but I remember, and I worked with
lovely people throughout my life.
I'm not bringing any particulargroup of people out there.
But I started to think about, whatkind of people do I want to be around?
(29:29):
And I'd never had that thought before.
What kind of people, like, what kind ofpeople do I vibe really well with, and get
energy from, and move forward on projects?
I realized that in certain workingenvironments, they have not been around,
you can always choose people, right?
But the demographic of people thatI want, that gives me the biggest
burst of energy and help propel me.
(29:49):
And once I started to, again, bereally truthful with myself about
that, I started to be intentionalabout who I connect with.
And that has, again, just rooted mefurther down in my dreams, my desires,
my goals, my hopes, and also justmine, but then how I reach other
people that need that and want thatand are ready, they're hungry for it.
And I think again, as you havediscovered, I believe from your
(30:12):
process of doing this, you're alsogrounding yourself further and further.
You're meeting more and more peoplewho align with your kind of vision and
dreams and goals of what gets you going.
Yeah.
Totally.
I think of, sort of on the more wooside, people kind of say like people
that are on that same vibe, have thatsame vibe as you, same vibrational level.
(30:32):
I don't typically describe it thatway, but if you're kind of, if
you're with other people who aremoving and shaking and seeing that
sense of possibility and abundance,
all
of those things, then.
Because really one could saythat you and I are competitors.
But like, no, there'sno room for competition.
Like you do your business.
I do my business.
(30:53):
There's plenty of people out there.
Let's collaborate and do each other.
I'm a huge collaborator.
I, and the world's justso full of people, right?
I just don't feel, I'm not onethat feels, threatened in any way
or concerned about competition.
I just feel like the rightpeople will find the right path.
And different people areright for different people.
So that's really important that there isvariety and opportunity for people out
(31:15):
there to find what their needs are becauseI'm not the right coach for everybody.
No.
There are some people where I'm notgonna be the right person for them.
My approach doesn't workfor their character.
And that's fine.
And that's great and that's beautifulbecause once we establish that, and
that's why I get people on calls isto actually really just establish
what their needs are, can I help them?
And not just that, but arewe right for each other?
(31:38):
And that's, and there are times whenI say, you know, I don't think I'm
the right, I'm the right coach foryou, because that's really important.
It's a really importantpiece of the puzzle.
Because then the workis actually quite awful.
if it's just, if the fit isn't good,you're working hard to overcome obstacles
that aren't really things you can overcomeand feeling yucky about that person
feeling, like they're not moving forwardand the whole relationship is not good.
(32:02):
You
don't
want the wrong people.
No, and that's why you need to becontinually building on your self
awareness of your, I think about myskill set, my character, and if it's
going to interplay with somebody else's.
And at no point does it causeme offense or upset that it just
isn't going to because it's not areflection of myself or yourself.
If that's the case for you.
(32:22):
It's just differentpeople on different paths.
And that's fine.
Yeah.
I was thinking when you were talkingabout being around people who are
moving in a similar direction.
I've found that's been the part of mygroup coaching program that's been the
most impactful I put together thesefantastic modules and I've got this
(32:44):
planner and it's based in ACT and allof these great evidence based things
and it takes people in a purpose.
And people value that for sure.
But when I ask my clients, what's beenthe most impactful part, they always say
that it was a safe space in a community ofpeople that were supporting their growth,
that there was this sense of safety,community, reflection, observation,
(33:06):
collaborative problem solving.
And it's really neat because.
I can often just sit backand watch the magic happen.
I'm certainly, as a coach, but,if all of these people are using
their mirror neurons and that senseof social alignment and creating
fitting
in and moving in that direction ofunhustling and finding more values
(33:29):
alignment and getting out of thathabitual burnout cycle, and where
there's that just natural socialmovement toward that it's less effortful
for each individual and for me.
Yeah.
And I think that's, what's wonderfulabout online work because sometimes
people are, you know, they're stuckin a geographical location with a
certain circle of people that are nottraveling in the same direction as them.
(33:51):
Maybe they're swimmingupstream somewhere else.
And so having that camaraderie onlinewith a group or a person is powerful.
And I don't underestimatethe power of that.
We're meant to be in groups, we'remeant to be in community as humans.
And I think it justpropels us further forward.
Yeah, most definitely.
What is, what's on the horizon for you?
(34:11):
What do you kind of see in thenext few years for your evolution?
Oh gosh,
yeah.
I mean, on the one hand,I'm just super open, right?
I'm just in this where my river flows,and I'm not a sort of natural hippie,
so that's quite an unusual thing forme to say, but it's, it really is
like where everything's going to flow.
I'm going to remain open because in thepast, I've always been quite linear.
(34:32):
This is what I'm going to do.
This is how I'm going to do it.
And now I'm like, well,I've got multiple options.
Let's see where it goes.
But I see opportunity locally inworking and building women in business.
I'm on a panel for, local womenin business here, and I'm doing
some speaking events there.
I also see myself building intofurther executive coaching with some
(34:53):
organizations I've connected with.
And I want to continue to build, thefollowing around Burnout Recovery, because
I'm sure you also maybe come across this.
I meet many people who are burnt out.
And they know it, or they'restruggling in some way.
They're not quite ready tostep out for themselves yet.
sometimes they're just not quite there.
And I want to build more strength andmore trust and more community so that
(35:18):
people can feel super safe doing that.
And just, you know, people, sometimespeople come to me in a very fragile place.
And I always say my program,my, my program is one on one.
So it's very individualized.
So I have a curriculum that I verymuch, bend the curriculum to meet people
where they're at and help them flowthrough the process in a very natural
(35:38):
manner and people can be very fragile.
So I want to be very gentle with peopleand build them but continue to just allow
people space to step out of themselves.
That's
my hope and dream for the future
Oh, I love that
How about you Carlyn?
What's your?
(35:59):
Where's your river flowing?
Where's your Kawa river going?
Well, it's actually right here.
It's on the wall, it's in a chart.
But actually, before, before I go there,I wanted to share a bit of a thought
on the fragile people in burnout.
Because a lot of my work over theyears has been third party payer funded
(36:22):
work with people who are off work dueto even very often it is a burnout.
And very often I have to actually holdthe reins a little bit because some people
want to achieve their way out of burnout.
Yes.
Yes.
At a point where they're experiencingillness, they're experiencing severe
(36:42):
depression that started out asburnout, where their nervous system
is essentially, all dysregulated.
They need to rest first, and theyhaven't allowed themselves to rest
because they're trying to tick allthe boxes for all the self care and do
all the challenges and those things.
It's really hard to convincethem to slow down because that
feels really uncomfortable.
(37:03):
Right.
I was one of those people once.
And you're right, you're absolutely right.
It's the idea around rest.
And some of my work in the UnitedKingdom was very similar to yours
where I would actually be contractedin by a company to work with
somebody who's off long term sick andreally support them back into work.
But through an individualized programthat was independent of the employer.
(37:23):
And I would love to get, do moreof that here in the United States.
I'm just trying to figure out how theUnited States works all of the time.
That's an area of growth thatI have connected with HR needs
and the laws are different, etc.
But I found, you know, when Iwas doing that work in the United
Kingdom, that, yeah, you're right,people have tried really hard, right?
And I like to say they logic their way outof it, they're trying, they're checking
(37:46):
the box, and actually they haven't donethe piece, of how am I actually feeling?
Yeah.
and why?
And sometimes it's stuff that's beenbrought up for them that happened a
long time ago, or that, they're justfeeling rubbish about themselves, right?
They just, for some people they have areally deep wound that's already open.
And that one project that didn't workout, work brought everything up and then
(38:08):
they just couldn't cope with going in.
And I unpick that with them aswell because like I say, as you do,
you meet people where they're at.
That's been a big piece of work.
But yeah, people can be very fragile andwe have to be very, very gentle with them.
That's where the therapeuticunderlying skill set comes from, right?
As I said, OTs, we use those therapeuticskills in our coaching practice.
(38:32):
It's so true.
And we with that, yeah, with that lifeexperience and that clinical experience,
we can't not bring it along with us.
Yeah.
You asked me about wheremy river is flowing.
so Kathryn Wise, she's an OT in,she's from Canada and she's a
professor at both a universityin Canada and one in California.
She and I, she had me comeand do a talk in a healthcare
(38:54):
leadership master's program.
And we just did one sessiontogether on burnout.
actually by the time this isreleased, I'll have released the
podcast interview I did with her.
But she came into my group coachingprogram and we did a little workshop
on helping OTs look at their ownjourney of business and called it
(39:16):
Burnout Through the Kawa Model.
And so everybody looked back, but did itthrough their business and look back to
our journey and different kind of turnsand twists and obstacles in the journey.
And, for me, it was how they, influenceddifferent pieces and thinking about
when I first started, actually, mydad was, he became palliative within
(39:37):
a couple of months of me startingmy business and so I had this
flexibility that I was so grateful for.
At the same time, that wasthe early days of my business.
And I hadn't reflected on thatintersection, because at the
time I was just in survival mode.
But then yeah, kind of that, thatevolution further down at different
things that there was the pandemic thatcreated a shift in a disruption, there
(40:01):
was some values misalignment before that.
There was a sense of wanting more kind ofpeace and ease for myself and to be less.
busy.
And different things I've done alongthe way there's kind of economic
changes in the last year or twointerest rates are up like things are.
Right.
Yeah.
More expensive.
That's impacting the way peopleare purchasing things, the way
(40:23):
they're investing in themselves.
Impacting my own bottom line tooin our family and things like that.
And so as I kind of look at movingforward, what I actually came up
as a conclusion, which wasn't,isn't necessarily a direction,
but a sense of defining it is
that
you can't speed up the river.
It is what it is.
Let the river care.
(40:44):
Your effort to change itis what's exhausting you.
Oh, so true.
So true.
That is so powerful, and I think ifpeople take time to truly dwell on that
and really think about their lives, yourealize that you can be trying to swim
up creek in some way or other, right,and then you have to really recognize it.
Yeah,
so true.
That's really, really powerful.
(41:05):
So I don't know where the river's going.
But.
Yeah.
I am flowing with it as well.
And, you know, sort of getting thatsense of continuing with that effort
of, or that, that direction, thatintentional direction of allowing
that flow, listening, tuninginto what feels aligned, pausing.
And, that sort of idea of therebeing a stressor and your response
(41:30):
in between is, is that power sothat it's not just a stressor and
a reaction, but stressor, pause,
reflect, align with yourvalues, and then respond.
And so, space, creating that, pausingto feel and reflect and choose
the next action intentionally.
It's not passive, but it's
(41:51):
allowing, down stream
movement
right?
Yeah, and I've done a lot oftrying to swim up the river.
Yeah.
Me too.
And I see, and I've known it and I'vedone it and I was like, it doesn't matter.
Just keep going.
You have to keep learning your lifelessons over and over again, right?
You learn them and then they slipaway and you gotta learn them again.
So it's, I almost find myselfa source of amusement at times.
(42:14):
Have you seen the, the analogy of thespiral that very often we were like, why
am I here learning this lesson again?
I thought I already learned this one.
I'm back here again.
And we can shame ourselves for it.
And the idea is that if we turn that upon its side, it's actually a spiral, like
a spiral staircase that's going up andwe're coming back to old lessons with new
(42:35):
experiences and differently and all ofthese things still are forward movement.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think as well, some of usjust need to keep growing and
learning the same thing because wehave a hard time with it, you know?
Yeah.
So yeah, but it's all forward motion.
It's
all forward motion.
Yeah, it is.
(42:56):
Now, do you screen for that morekind of severe end of burnout?
That's something that I've played aroundwith using like burnout scales, because my
sweet spot for helping people is somewherein the middle, actually, not, The full,
full, full burnout and not just inthat, oh, I'm getting a little stressed.
Like people can find someindependent resources for that,
(43:18):
but that sweet spot in the middle.
How about you?
Yeah, I do use the burnout scale, but I,for me, and I think people sometimes may
find that, frustrating, they're just like,I just want to know what it is, but I
do like to connect with people on calls.
And the reason for that is toreally understand where they are at
and if this is going to fit them.
Because as you say, some peoplecan be, they can be so fragile.
(43:39):
This just isn't the right time.
And I can give them, and I dokind of a bit of a roadmap or
signposting or just, this is what Ireally recommend for you right now.
Maybe come back to me when X, Y, and Zhas happened or when these things because,
I do have that strong ethical drive,that we're taught to have, right which
is about doing what is best for people.
And what I find is that there'ssome people who, like you said,
(44:01):
they're just a bit stressed.
I tend to, you know, I connect withthem and I establish, they don't
probably need a whole program.
They probably just need that road backagain and we just tend to get that
done together and I wish them well andI'm always, my door is open, So, yeah,
that sweet spot that you describe andI do take people that, who are really
struggling, but I also take people whoare, they're struggling but they're ready.
(44:23):
They're ready for the steps.
I take both of those demographics, andit's a slightly different journey in
terms of the program, but ultimately,for me it's my skill in teasing out
where they're at, and what their needsare, and how I can meet that, or if not.
That's a really importantpart of the step.
Yep.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I imagine too, like I know I oftenam also evaluating that environment, like
(44:48):
how much ability do they have to change?
Is there, are they in a phaseof life where, there's not a
lot that can actually change?
There's a high level of responsibilityand certainly we can impact
their coping and their ability.
Yeah.
to manage the situation.
But sometimes that can be reallyhard as you consider those.
Everybody has the choice to goand start a business and switch
(45:12):
and, you know, delegate to all thethings that are overwhelming them.
Absolutely.
But I do, Sometimes I do freewebinars as well and I find some of
those capture that audience well.
Maybe they're not in a place where theycan do something fairly transformative
at this current time, but they can applysome of the lessons, skills, ideologies
(45:34):
that
are in the webinar.
They can keep it, they can watchit back and they can start to just
have some experience of relief.
I think little pockets of reliefof being seen is powerful and
some people need to be seen.
Oh, so true.
I have a few last questions if youare ready for them that I ask people
(45:54):
at the end of the podcast, always.
What does being brave mean to you?
Yeah, I feel being brave is justfeeling all the feels and doing
something anyway, and vulnerability.
You know, people fear vulnerability,and vulnerability is, to me,
beautiful and powerful in the rightplaces, in the safe places, right?
(46:17):
Yeah, and being brave is just that,willingness to do something and a risk.
And maybe fail, and be okaywith it, and do it again.
Yes, That ability to get back up.
Fall trip, get back up.
You're not going to die.
Just keep going.
In fact, just a quick one on that theme.
I actually talk with my childrensometimes at dinner, and I say,
(46:39):
what did you guys fail today?
And they look at me, what?
What do you mean?
I'm like what, you know, I wantyou to fail at something this week.
And I want to change theirinterpretation and experience of failure.
Because if I can give them theidea that it's okay to fail,
they're more likely to try.
That doesn't mean I'm not celebratingsuccess and doing well, but I really
want, I did not grow up with thatidea around failure, and I really
(47:02):
would like to instill that in my kids.
So I try and practicethat in my daily life.
My eldest son just graduated from highschool and the speaker they had, come to
teach give the big speech was their formerband teacher and he called it the anti
motivational speech and said, hey, likego try things, screw up, go take an arts
(47:26):
class, take a, take something and drop it,like try something out, change your major.
These are all really good thingsto do and, and it's freeing and it
allows for creativity and it allows.
It absolutely does.
New experiences and flexibility.
Absolutely.
(47:46):
Yeah, I love that.
What is something braveyou've done recently?
Oh gosh, I feel like it'squite a long list to be honest.
It's like never ending list of scarythings I have to keep doing in life.
I think building a business has beenquite brave and stepping into that fully.
Yeah, I've worked really hardon building my self belief and
(48:07):
understanding my capacity is hugeand my capability is fantastic.
and I don't say that in an egoistical wayor a prideful way, just in a realization
that I have a huge ability to do things.
And that's really freeing.
And so that's something I'vehad to be brave, but I've also.
moved country and moved to differentplaces and had different jobs and that's
(48:30):
all been very very trying and requiring
a lot of bravery in many differentareas and I'm hearing from you that
huge ability to do things gives you acertain amount of confidence, faith,
like sense that it's going to workout that you have the ability to make
things work out and take risks Yeah.
(48:52):
Is that a fair interpretation?
Yeah, I think it is.
And one of the things that I, Imean, I can tangent all day on
this, so I'll try and keep short.
One of the things I really feel passionateabout is, is supporting women to
understand what it would feel like towalk into a room and truly believe in
who they are and have confidence in that,
to imagine it.
Many, many, many women cannotimagine it and we're not as women
(49:16):
and I don't just coach women.
I coach all people, but often it'swomen just because of my connections
and background experiences.
Women are not taught tosay, I feel great today.
I have good things to say.
I'm going to help people.
I'm bringing something to the tableand I'm confident in what I'm doing.
There's a journey to that place.
There's absolutely a journey,and there's a journey beyond it.
(49:37):
Okay, that's not the end point.
But I would love to buildthat much more in women.
And I, again, I model thiswith my kids, you know.
I will actively say in front of mydaughter, Mommy looks great today.
I feel wonderful.
I'm having a lovely morning.
You know, really trying to model thenotion of I, I'm confident, I have
(49:58):
strengthened myself, I'm capable, andI just want all women to feel that way.
I really do.
Yeah, again, I could keep yougoing for many hours, but I
won't.
I love that.
I've also spoken to people who takethat same confidence and knowledge
and then that feels like a pressureto then realize their full potential,
(50:20):
that they need to do all the thingsthey need to, because they're capable,
they must achieve all of the things.
And therefore playingsmall is not acceptable.
Rest is not, I have this capacityand I need to, I need to reach my
full potential, it's a differentspin on the same experience.
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
(50:41):
Thankfully I don'tstruggle with not resting.
No.
It's just not, it's just not a problem.
I'll happily take a nap in my hammock.
I love it.
But yes, you're right,people do struggle with that
and I think, again, it's a lotabout culture, our perception,
how we feel we need to be.
But again, there's been a lot of workin my journey and a lot of it's involved
(51:03):
freedom, freedom from those things.
And I think I just wish forother people to have freedom.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
And I think that there's that culturalsense to, whether it's cultural or
personal or family of origin, I suppose.
But if our self worth and our value istied to achievement, then we, don't feel
valuable as we are that often drives that
(51:26):
hustle.
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's where you often That'swhere I often, I see that a lot,
especially in the women I work withthat are kind of at an executive level.
They have been living accordingto that script, and that
hustle, and that capacity.
And then suddenly, there'sthat, wall hitting point where
they're like, hang on a minute.
(51:46):
What am I doing?
Who am I?
What does this mean about meif I don't do this anymore?
And that becomes the pieceof work that we, we focus on.
Very much a midlife
thing, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
I didn't get a sports car yet.
I think the female version, themale version tends to be the sports
car and the female version tendsto be, I'm going to run away and
stop taking care of all the people.
(52:07):
My girlfriends and I have a visionof our commune that we're going to
start when we run away from it all.
Absolutely.
Sounds great.
Sounds great.
I'll invite you.
You definitely would fit in.
Oh, good.
I'm in.
What would you like the OT listenersto be a little more brave about?
Oh, I want them to be braveabout being confident in OT.
(52:34):
We spend energy on talking about howpeople don't understand OT, or they
don't understand our roles, or etc, etc.
And actually, I would love forus to cut through the noise
and speak really confidently.
And be in spaces online talking aboutour skills, our strength, what we
bring to the table in a powerful way.
(52:56):
And I'm hoping and believing that,and again, it's been a long time
since I did my degrees, but thatthere is more language around business
and marketing in undergrad degrees,because I feel like that is key
for OTs to build their confidenceand strength in what we deliver.
Because what we deliver, Ibelieve, is absolutely fantastic.
Absolutely life changing.
(53:17):
And I don't think any other demographicis doing it, not like we do it.
So I'm super proud of ourprofession and what we achieve.
And I'm sure, I'm really aware that we'rekind of talking about entrepreneur OTs,
but I want OTs who are working in hipand knee replacements and orthopedics
to believe and understand that theyare stepping into opportunity to
(53:38):
connect with those people and transformtheir lives as they do, maybe some
more generic activities or they'rein the systems that they maybe don't
always love or, whatever it might be.
You can be an entrepreneur in whichevery area you are working in, and it
doesn't mean you're setting up a business.
It means you're blazingaway forward, right?
And whatever that might be.
Yeah,
most definitely.
(53:58):
If somebody wants to reach outto you, connect with you, consume
some of your resources, wherecan they find these things?
Yeah, I am, I'm so a Facebookperson and I'm trying on Instagram.
But I have a websitewhich is melhoman.com.
And there's an inquiry page on there.
Or you just drop me a DM on Facebook.
(54:19):
I'm very friendly.
And I'm, I love just to chat with people.
You do.
You do.
I love it.
And you're, you are soresponsive on Facebook.
We, I feel like I know you fromjust the way we interact on
different posts on Facebook.
And yeah, I appreciate you very much.
I appreciate you being here.
I'm going to put thoselinks in the show notes.
And I look forward tofurther collaborations.
(54:41):
I think that yes, at the beginning of our
Rivers will flow, right?
Yeah, most definitely.
Well, thank you very much.
Thank
you.
At the beginning of thisepisode, Mel referred to our
discussion as a meeting of souls.
And I think that's what happened here.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I thank you for listening.
It's a pleasure having Mel Homanwith us, sharing her insights on
(55:05):
overcoming hustle, nurturing ourmental health and the significance
of building strong community ties.
Mel is extending an invitation foryou to join her Facebook group.
It is now called buildingfulfillment and transformation.
I'll link it in the shownotes and it's a great place
to continue these discussionson getting out of burnout.
I'll also included a link to her website.
(55:26):
Now, if you're an occupationaltherapist who's been listening to
today's discussion and it resonatedwith you, I'd love to know about it.
A really great way to do this is to sharethe episode on Facebook on Instagram or
LinkedIn, and tag me in the post withany points on what you found helpful.
This helps the right people.
See it.
The people who need to hear this message.
(55:46):
And if you're looking for moreways to enhance your vitality and
wellbeing, I invite you to exploremy ACTivate Vitality program.
It's designed specifically tocreate a community of support for
OT business owners, just like you
aiming to get out of the types of patternsthat hook us into overworking, such as
self-doubt perfectionism, fear of failure.
And I want to get you on withloving how you live and work.
(56:08):
I'll link the activate vitality pagein the show notes for you to explore.
And then you can book a call.
I'd love to talk to you.
Remember, you're notalone in this journey.
Let's continue to build on whatwe've learned today and support
each other along the way.
You learn from the people aroundyou, from what you're listening
to the media you're consuming,the peer as you spend time with.
So you want to be surrounding yourselfwith peers who nudge you in the
(56:30):
direction that you want to be going.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast,to leave a review and share the
episode with a colleague or friend whomight benefit from the conversation.
Until next time,
be brave OTs.
To some degree, it's that distresstolerance because often when we are
(00:02):
alone with our thoughts all the thingswe don't want to deal with arise.
And it's, it's that process andI have to do that regularly.
And sometimes I lose track, right?
Sometimes days, weeks cango by and I haven't done it.
It always comes to the surface eventually.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
(00:23):
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
(00:46):
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
In today's episode, we'rejoined by Mel Homan.
She's a fellow occupational therapist whohas turned her experiences and burnout
into a transformative program for others.
We'll discuss how to step away from hustleculture, the importance of grounding
(01:09):
in our daily activities in our dailylives, and the power of community in
fostering recovery and personal growth.
Whether you're an OT, another typeof helping professional or someone
who was drawn to this podcast episodebecause of your own burnout journey.
This episode is packedwith insights just for you.
(01:33):
Before we jump into today's episode, let'sgive a shout out to our sponsor, Jane,
a clinic management software and EMR.
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Thank you, Mel, for joining me.
I'm really excited to have youhere on the Brave OT podcast.
Absolutely.
I'm excited to be here.
Thanks for inviting me along.
(02:37):
My pleasure.
For context, you and I, for the listeners,you and I had a conversation last week
where I put out some feelers about mentalhealth, private practice, and asking
some questions and a lot of the content.
You and I ended up booking a chatjust to discuss and found we had
lots of overlaps and synergiesand ways of approaching the world.
(02:59):
So I invited you here totalk about those things.
Yeah, that's right.
It was exciting to connect witha fellow kindred spirit, I think.
And that's, that gives you a lot of joyin life when you have a meeting of souls.
Totally.
I often feel when I read your postson social media that I think, ah, yes,
yes, yes, yes, I so agree because we'reboth we're both supporting people to
(03:23):
get off of that burnout cycle and getout of the hustle culture and resist the
pressure to be productive, productive,productive, achieve, achieve, achieve.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I echo that very deeply.
Partly because I considermyself a recovering hustler who
practices daily practices toremain in recovery essentially.
(03:45):
So that's where, that's what sparks joyfor me is working with people on that.
Yeah, I love that you admit to thatneeding to work at it because I
definitely in my own work that defaultof like it just kind of I ended up
defaulting there over and over again,and having to actually pull myself out
because, and I think there's so many
(04:07):
reasons for that, right?
we're on social media talking to people.
And so you see what appearsto be everybody else going
higher and higher and higher.
And then whether you want to or not,your nervous system is responding
to what you're seeing, what you'reconsuming, what you're picking up.
And we look at our own truth.
And compare our own kind of low light reelto someone else's highlight reel and just
(04:32):
it sneaks up on us at a more foundationallevel and not an intentional level.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know if this is somethingthat you find useful, but I do a
lot of grounding because when we areworking online a lot, you can build a
very artificial concept of the world.
So I very much focus on the people, myneighbors, who's physically around me,
(04:52):
what are people living, how is lifegoing, what does the world look like?
Because it can become incrediblydistorted when you're online.
And something I love and that I foundwith my work online is the concept around
latent energy, which is that being aroundpeople gives you the energy and the
boom and the drive to do what you do.
And you're around similar minded people.
(05:13):
You're wanting to buildtowards the same kind of ethos.
And that's why it's so great to meetwith people and connect with people
like yourself, because we have asimilar ethos and it builds us up.
It helps us collaborate andunderstand and be authentic.
And yeah, I consider myself the onewho has to tap into things every
day to stay on the right track.
(05:33):
And that's why I'm sopassionate about what I do.
Yeah, and I think that makes you moreskilled at working at it and helping
people who are struggling with it becauseif you didn't have that experience, if
you couldn't relate, and you just wereeasily Zen all the time without effort.
You're actually no use to the peoplewho need to learn, how to get from
(05:55):
that dysregulated or state or hustleor burnout to where they'd like to be.
You just were there.
You have nothing to teach.
Absolutely.
And for me, I'm a kind of a Myers Briggs,ESTJ, goal driven, go, go, go person.
And it has taken me until kind ofpretty much my 40th year to really
(06:16):
recognize that that's been, that'sa wonderful blessing in some ways
and a terrible curse in others.
And actually there is, it's ajoy and a blessing to be found
in understanding yourself.
And then connecting with your feelingsand understanding more about that,
because that was the piece I was missing.
Other people are missing differentpieces, but for me, that was the
big piece of work I had to do.
(06:36):
And I still have to do that as adaily practice as much as I can.
So what does that look like?
Yeah, so I've had to,I've slowed life down.
So, you know, I stillam a very early riser.
I like to get my hardcore workout in.
That's always been a partof my start of my day.
And that's something that brings me joy.
That's not something I sayother people need to do.
(06:56):
But it's really about stoppingregularly and thinking and
feeling, actively choosing to feel.
That's really difficult.
You don't really want to do that.
In fact, I was listeningto a podcast yesterday.
Especially if it feels yucky.
Oh, yeah.
I'm too busy.
I want to get things done.
Yeah.
I was listening to a study about, theyput people in a room and they gave
(07:20):
them 30 minutes for their own thoughts.
Or they could shock themselveswith a machine in the corner.
80 percent chose to shockthemselves because, yeah, being
left with your own thoughts.
And I think one of the biggestchallenges and most wonderful things
we can do is be alone in our thoughtsand manage that and experience it and
feel how we feel and think it through.
(07:43):
To some degree, it's that distresstolerance because often when we are
alone with our thoughts all the thingswe don't want to deal with arise.
And it's, it's that process andI have to do that regularly.
And sometimes I lose track, right?
Sometimes days, weeks cango by and I haven't done it.
It always comes to the surface eventually.
And
that's why it has tobe as much as possible
a daily thing.
Oh, that's so valuable becauseso much of when people are in
(08:07):
unhealthy patterns, it's driven bythe avoidance of a negative feeling.
Absolutely.
Right.
That I don't want to feel bored.
I don't want to feel hungry.
I want to feel more to feel that,I don't want to feel stressed.
I'm going to, maybe they'll keepthemselves too busy to avoid
feeling any of the other feelings.
(08:28):
Right.
And they're not in charge.
Their feelings are in charge.
And I think, you know, as aclassic, feelings that matter,
get things done for a while.
And, actually wars havebeen started from feelings.
Global changes come from feelings ofpride being hurt or, being undermined,
or a whole range of things, right?
A lot of it stems from feelings,so they are absolutely pinnacle
(08:49):
for us to, we must pay attention.
And that's something Ihave learned the hard way.
And that I like to hopefully getpeople ahead of where I got to so
they can maybe not go through thechallenges I went through before I
start to connect with that much more.
Yeah, for sure.
Now, we jumped straight into theconversation, and I forgot the part
where you tell us about what you do.
That's right, yeah, I know, we'realready really excited and on it, right?
(09:12):
Yeah, so it's, yeah, I, at the moment,I run 12 week burnout recovery programs,
I've cultivated a curriculum, it'scome from research and study and
personal experience and longstandingexperience in mental health and
various therapies I'm trained in.
And I take people through a curriculumthat brings them from burnout and
(09:33):
depletion to hope and renewal.
And by the end of it, they have aroadmap of the steps to take in life
to maintain being out of burnout.
Which is the challenge.
We don't want to just be out ofburnout for a period of time.
We want that to be along term life change.
So that's something I've developedand absolutely feel passionate about
and love to do absolutely love to do
(09:53):
it.
I love that.
And who is your ideal client?
Really it's someone who'sin a little bit of crisis.
Maybe they've just come to arealization that maybe the direction
of travel in their life isn'twhere they want to go anymore, but
they're not quite sure what to do.
And they are wanting to takesteps, but they're not sure
what those steps look like.
(10:13):
And I guess I get a bitof a mix of demographics.
I get a lot of public sector workers.
I have a couple of, more executiverole people, but really the common
theme is this, they've hit aroadblock in their life and they
don't know which direction to go in.
And that stuckness is depletingthem, overwhelming them, and maybe
they're burnt out because of theirjob, their life circumstances, or
(10:36):
even mindset and personal challenges.
So, people come from all walks oflife, but they have that commonality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Before you started this coaching,what was your background?
what kind of work wereyou doing before that?
Yeah, I've had a, mostly kind of mentalhealth background in occupational
therapy, so different areas.
(10:58):
Obviously, I'm a Brit, as you mayhear from my accent, and I work
mostly in the United Kingdom.
But then I relocated to theUnited States and worked.
I've worked in, I've workedin the United Kingdom.
I've worked in schools as well.
I also had a bit of a private practice.
I worked for a small therapy company.
I developed a blanket to sail,I've done quite a lot of things.
And then I moved to the UnitedStates and spent some time working
in behavioral health and in schools.
(11:19):
Before kind of making, and I've been onthis meandering journey for some time.
Yeah.
But then fully stepped into that andreally have just felt that is what
I'm supposed to be doing in life.
And there's nothing more pleasingand doing what you feel you're
supposed to be doing in life Yeah.
I'm thinking about that quote,not all who wander are lost.
Absolutely.
(11:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You weren't lost at any point inthat journey you were exploring.
I was exploring and I, I think, Imean, I think much like you that
exploration has led me to where I amand it's been a beautiful journey.
And I think facing fear and doubt hasbeen part of that journey and overcoming
my own self limiting beliefs, my ownchallenges has been a huge piece of that.
(12:02):
And as you know, right, when youstep into the entrepreneurial fields,
where you're just stepping out on theedges and the margins, you have to be
strong in yourself to take that step.
Yeah.
It doesn't mean you have to haveeverything figured out, but you have
to have raised your self belief enoughand your confidence enough to do it
because many people unintentionally,we'll have that flicker in their eye of
(12:23):
doubt or confusion about what is that?
What do you do again?
What is it you're doing on the internet?
And you have to be able tostand and be like, this is what
I do and this is why I do it.
So I think that kind of entrepreneurialpiece has always been within me and
I imagine it's always been in you.
Carlyn, do you feel like, kind ofon your journey, has that been part
of what's been going on for you?
(12:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I think that about all of the waysI've adjusted my niche over the years,
it's been based on my own journey.
And so much of, I think that the bestway to learn where we need to grow
personally is to start a business.
Yeah.
Cracks are where the insecurities are.
(13:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's a growth experience, isn't it?
When you step into business, it really is.
And the skillsets required are verydifferent, there's no doubt about it.
And there's no way to learn thingsother than jumping in and doing it.
just start.
Yeah.
Let's see where you go.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you and I are both
a bit anti perfectionist.
I call myself a good enoughist.
(13:25):
Oh, me
too.
Yeah, I kind of pride myself alittle bit on it because Yeah.
Otherwise, if you know, taking a coupleof steps in the wrong direction is
better than taking no steps at all.
You have to have momentum and movement.
And if you take steps, even inthe wrong direction, you're going
to learn and grow and experience.
And that's what you need for development.
(13:45):
Comfort does not grow you.
And so you have to have failingsand challenges to grow you.
And part of my journey has beenagain, redefining failure to myself.
And I've had to fail.
multiple things to trulyunderstand that it's, this is okay.
This isn't a part of my identityand this is a wonderful experience.
(14:06):
And I find, I'm very confident you findthis too, that many of the people we
work with are struggling with theirfear of failure, they are struggling
with what that would mean about whothey are and what people would think.
There's definitely, you can link the,intelli- like, well, go all the way back
to the good girl, who's intelligent, who'san achiever, who works really hard, who
(14:31):
gets lots of feedback for being successfuland effective and all of those things,
forgiving, And that perfectionism then,that kind of achieving, leaning into
more perfectionism when the going getstough, that those come to us with burnout
almost always.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And when your identity is completelybuilt into that way of life and
(14:53):
thinking and so is your family's,it's really hard to think differently.
And the place, I mean, I love to getinspiration from listening to podcasts,
other people online like yourself,but something I found really good to
listen to is the Diary of a CEO podcast.
Because, oh, Steven Bartlett isthe CEO in the United Kingdom
and he interviews other CEOs.
And it is incredibly raw and authentic.
(15:15):
But when you listen to the journeysof these different people, they
are from all walks of life.
You know, some of them dropped out ofschool and got into drugs and didn't
have any qualifications and then blah,blah, found their ways to success.
Some of them followed this traditionalroute, but many, many, many of them
quit something, pivoted in their lifein a different direction, Risked losing
(15:35):
things, Just they, they stepped out.
And I think, I mean, I'm, I am thatclassic good girl, I was just good at
school and I went to university and Igot my degree and then I worked really
hard and there's nothing wrong with thatat all, except that it's just one set
of values and one way of doing things.
And the more I exposed myself to allthis difference, the more I learned that
(15:56):
journeys can be so beautiful and varied,and there's so much power in that.
So I like to fill my mind withthese resources to, build and grow
my own understanding of the world.
I
love that.
I think about, I did a YouTube videomore probably two years ago maybe.
And it was about thinking aboutmindfulness as a traveler.
(16:18):
And so I think about the way I prefer totravel is to have a loose sense of where
I, what I'd like to see of a place, butleave room for magic, leave room for
exploration, leave room to be able tostop at the festival that you happened
upon, leave room, like you want to haveenough security that you kind of know
generally where you're going or have somehotel reservations somewhere along the
(16:40):
way, But leave room for that exploration.
And anytime I'm traveling.
I'm experiencing the moment.
I'm there in the present moment,listening to the sounds and the music
and the language and the bustle andtasting the food and smelling the
smells and seeing these unique sites.
And if we can live more of our lives, ourbusinesses, our day to day lives, if we
(17:05):
can live that way in, in more ways whereyou're kind of letting go of this sort
of sense of, well, it's about gettingto a specific destination, you'll get
to some amazing destinations if you letthat exploration be, perhaps better than
you knew was there before you got there.
A hundred percent.
I love that because I'm very similarto you in terms of the perspective on
(17:26):
travel, and I like to not schedule orplan too much, but just, you know, enough
to know you've got a bed to sleep inand what you want to see, like you said.
But I spent time living abroad, alittle bit of time in Argentina.
I spent time living in France and,for me, I love to get into the
underbelly of a culture and unpickthe values of that culture, right?
Because we are so tuned in thinkingour own culture's values are correct.
(17:50):
And I love to unpick that, tochallenge my own perceptions of
how something should be, right?
It can be so vastly different.
And one of the things I lovedin Argentina was that they, you
know, they were not scheduled.
Our culture it's highly relational.
So if you bump into somebody in England,we often would be like, oh no, look away.
I don't have time to talkto this person right now.
(18:12):
But in Argentina, they're like,hey, let's go grab coffee right now.
And then you talk for three hours.
It's very immediate and relational.
And I valued that beautifulcomponent of that country.
So I feel like that is something that wecan use to enrich our lives all the time.
Oh, That's so good.
you were in the U.K., U.S.
(18:33):
You're coaching for burnout.
Are you practicing as amental health OT in the U.S.
as well?
Yeah, I have a small private practicein my local area, where I tend to do,
mental health OT with adults, teens,and I have a master's degree in sensory
integration, so I use that as well.
(18:53):
Often I find it's a big overlap withpeople that are having some sensory
challenges and obviously experiencingthe world, in a highly anxious
state or feeling quite depressed.
I work with individualsin that, way as well.
So I like to carry both, butI consider all of it to be OT.
In reality, and I think I'vetouched on this with you, is
about how we talk about OT, right?
(19:15):
And how we use language,to convey what we do.
And for me, the Burnout RecoveryProgram is essentially OT.
And many of the components of OT, butI use language that more people can
follow and understand and identify with.
So if somebody signs up, let's sayfrom Canada, and wants to see you for
(19:35):
burnout, would there be obstacles interms of defining it as OT or not OT?
I don't think so because I keepthe two components separate.
One is very much under coachingand I'm just in the middle
of completing a differentaccreditation for that specifically.
And then the other is kindof custom to the OT domain.
(19:56):
But I also am, licensed in the UnitedKingdom as an OT, which I think also
provides an extra string to my bow.
Yeah, I think it is a complexarea in terms of it's, in
terms of how we define it.
But I do, I sit the recovery program underthe umbrella of coaching and I sit the OT
mental health, specificallyin the OT mental health.
(20:16):
Yeah, it is really tricky because,the OT advocate in me, is saying
on the one hand, we're OTs throughand through in everything we do.
Yeah.
And why not allow us to step intothese international, audiences
standing fully in our OTness as wesupport people on a larger scale.
(20:37):
And there's sort of thosejurisdictional limitations where,
where we can't like, it'shard to regulate that.
It's hard to license that.
And I can appreciate that a lot ofthe regulations were created before
we were so internationally connected.
even five years ago, we weren'tas connected as we are now.
Sure, sure.
And I think for me, this hasbeen highlighted mostly from
(20:59):
being in the United States.
This wasn't really a barrier tomy practice in the United Kingdom.
And I've been on a fast trackof learning, OT in the U.S.
I suppose.
And still have much to learn but I alsohave businesses registered in the...
it's all very complicated.
Yeah, Yeah, for sure.
It is complicated.
And I think it's an evolving scene.
I definitely would love for allof this work, for us to be able to
(21:21):
stand in OT and all of this work.
And then at the same time, I don't wantto hold back and only coach clients in the
provinces where I'm allowed to practice.
I've got clients all over the world.
That's important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I do too.
And I like to have that, thatglobal reach, I really don't
want to turn people away.
And that's why I've createdlike two separate streams.
(21:44):
But I'm sure that's going tocontinue evolving and changing
as things change, right.
Yeah, and I think it's importantbecause it's increasing visibility,
the louder we be about increasingvisibility for OT, and if we're doing
so responsibly, it can be, it canreally help kind of progress things.
Help increase that visibility of OT,help people understand OT and I think
(22:07):
that there's room for that and we'renot quite there yet because all of our
regulatory bodies haven't quite figuredout how we can continue to regulate.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We can absolutely just keep campaigningthat they move forward with progression, I
think is, is the hope.
Yeah, totally.
And then where we stand then responsiblybecause I too have my two separated.
(22:31):
And so that I've very clearly documentedand get feedback from my local regulatory
body on a regular basis to about, okay,well, where is the blurry line and what,
how here's I'm trying to do in the absenceof a clear distinction and, but also
proving that professional responsibility.
Right.
Yeah.
At the same time, because Idon't want to lose my OT license.
(22:55):
I very much want to continue to be an OT.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Are the challenges in Canada for you?
I definitely feel that in Canada it'smuch easier to work in mental health, much
like it probably was for you in the UK.
Yeah, I mean, the difference inhow it operates between the U.K.
and the U.S.
is huge.
It's huge.
(23:15):
Really huge.
So that's been a huge learning curve.
But yeah, I get the impressionthat OT is more prevalent in the
field of mental health in Canada.
It is.
And like it, it's very, very commonto be able to get a mental health
OT job, but I don't want one.
I don't want a job.
I think I'm essentially unemployableat this stage of independence.
I feel that, I feel that,
(23:35):
yeah.
And I think, do you think that'spartly because, did you hit a
point where you felt that you'retired of systems a little bit?
Yes, it was exactly that.
And you know, it's a funny, I was tiredof redundant paperwork, for instance,
like document something in threedifferent places and then recount it
(23:58):
in my statistics at the end of the day.
And then kind of like that I wasspending, it felt like about half
of the day, not serving clients.
And then also having so many obstaclesto doing the right thing was really hard.
And so those were frustrating things,but I navigated them because I was
working in home care in my last job.
And I navigated them because I stillhad that freedom and flexibility of
(24:22):
location and time that I would go outand see my clients, but I could also
work from my kitchen table in between.
I could, I could move my breaks around andgo and drop off the kids and pick them up.
And I had that flexibility or even beable to squeeze in an appointment during
the day by moving my breaks aroundor scheduling around those things.
So that flexibility made it okay, butthere came a point, actually, that was
(24:44):
a tipping point that just kind of tippedthat discomfort of staying the same versus
the discomfort of leaving, and therewas a requirement to sign in and out at
815 and 415 at an office that wasn'tnear my home or area that I was working.
And I was like, oop.
Yup.
Nope.
I think that tip, I think that tippingpoint is fantastic and painful and hard,
(25:08):
but that tipping point is powerful becauseactually when we sit, when things are
just ticking along, okay, we keep goingin something that somewhat feels mediocre.
And when we hit that tipping point oflike, this is an absolute no for me now.
We are then sufficientlywilling to jump off the cliff
and see if we're ready to fly.
And that is almost the point whereI want clients to be at, right?
(25:30):
Because that was a, I had a similarexperience where I just actually realized
like, I just could no longer work insystems that did not serve people well.
Where I could not deliver therapy in theway that I knew it needed to be delivered.
And where I did not have autonomy, andto be honest, that, that came crashing
towards me as I moved to the UnitedStates, because there is a huge increase
(25:53):
in paperwork and regulation in terms of,this is a different health system, right?
And I just thought, this is justnot where my soul is happy anymore.
It's just not what feeds me.
And I started to listen to that andthat was the tipping point for me.
And I started to think what willfeed me, instead of doing what was
the right thing or what would fit.
Or what works, or what fits my skill set.
(26:16):
I just broke it all away.
And that, I'm sure you, you hadthis similar experience, right,
where then you were like, actually,the world's my oyster now.
I can do so much.
I have so much reach.
You know what I love about what you'vejust described is that it circles back
to something you said earlier is thatyou had to pause and feel it like that
(26:36):
there was that sense offeeling, did it feel heavy?
Did it feel constricting?
Did you feel, you know, like at oddswith your values and that pause to
feel rather than just busy throughit or quit and find another job
or find a superficial solution.
Right.
And I think I've been busying throughlife for a long time and, you know,
(26:58):
just making logical choices, right?
That fits this, and this fits that, andthat'll fit my times picking the kids
up and taking them to this activity.
You know, just, at no point didI say, what does my soul want?
What do I need?
And when I hit that point,I start to listen to myself.
That's when, even if I even saw a job Ithought, no, I just, I actually can't,
(27:20):
I feel physically sick at this idea now.
It's just, I'm gone, I've gone somewhereelse inside of me now where this is
not where I'm going to be at anymore.
And I think that can feel terrifying,but actually I just felt this huge,
like a wall came down and I justsaw the opportunity before me, like
the world is full of opportunity andpeople and connections and beauty.
(27:42):
And when you flip to that.
It's amazing.
And just to give some context, andI say this to my clients, they can't
believe that, But yeah, it wasn'tthat long ago where I was in constant
illness, like virus after virus aftervirus, constant exhaustion, insomnia,
and fatigue, and really quite, sort ofa mild level of depression, just not
(28:05):
feeling life, and life is beautiful.
If you
we're told you can't wake uptomorrow unless you give me
a million dollars right now.
You would want to be ableto give that million dollars
because you want another day.
And so I try, I mean, it sounds verydramatic, but I try and be like,
yeah, I'm going to, I get another day.
This is awesome.
You know, really flip that perception.
(28:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, I just feel superexcited most of the time.
That is so good.
I think OTs, we are excellent atidentifying where the problems lie
and solving problems creatively.
And that makes us reallygood entrepreneurs.
And I've talked about this on thepodcast before, there are actually
(28:46):
like eight different traits of goodentrepreneurs that OTs possess.
And when we can see that, when we cansee that we can see where something could
be better and where if somebody made asmall tweak or a small thing that many
of those solutions can be businessesand ways of doing things and ways of
(29:07):
creating flexibility in our own lives.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think that was the crunch pointwhen you're working in systems, right.
And you can speak differently or better.
I think this is an interesting reflection,but I remember, and I worked with
lovely people throughout my life.
I'm not bringing any particulargroup of people out there.
But I started to think about, whatkind of people do I want to be around?
(29:29):
And I'd never had that thought before.
What kind of people, like, what kind ofpeople do I vibe really well with, and get
energy from, and move forward on projects?
I realized that in certain workingenvironments, they have not been around,
you can always choose people, right?
But the demographic of people thatI want, that gives me the biggest
burst of energy and help propel me.
(29:49):
And once I started to, again, bereally truthful with myself about
that, I started to be intentionalabout who I connect with.
And that has, again, just rooted mefurther down in my dreams, my desires,
my goals, my hopes, and also justmine, but then how I reach other
people that need that and want thatand are ready, they're hungry for it.
And I think again, as you havediscovered, I believe from your
(30:12):
process of doing this, you're alsogrounding yourself further and further.
You're meeting more and more peoplewho align with your kind of vision and
dreams and goals of what gets you going.
Yeah.
Totally.
I think of, sort of on the more wooside, people kind of say like people
that are on that same vibe, have thatsame vibe as you, same vibrational level.
(30:32):
I don't typically describe it thatway, but if you're kind of, if
you're with other people who aremoving and shaking and seeing that
sense of possibility and abundance,
all
of those things, then.
Because really one could saythat you and I are competitors.
But like, no, there'sno room for competition.
Like you do your business.
I do my business.
(30:53):
There's plenty of people out there.
Let's collaborate and do each other.
I'm a huge collaborator.
I, and the world's justso full of people, right?
I just don't feel, I'm not onethat feels, threatened in any way
or concerned about competition.
I just feel like the rightpeople will find the right path.
And different people areright for different people.
So that's really important that there isvariety and opportunity for people out
(31:15):
there to find what their needs are becauseI'm not the right coach for everybody.
No.
There are some people where I'm notgonna be the right person for them.
My approach doesn't workfor their character.
And that's fine.
And that's great and that's beautifulbecause once we establish that, and
that's why I get people on calls isto actually really just establish
what their needs are, can I help them?
And not just that, but arewe right for each other?
(31:38):
And that's, and there are times whenI say, you know, I don't think I'm
the right, I'm the right coach foryou, because that's really important.
It's a really importantpiece of the puzzle.
Because then the workis actually quite awful.
if it's just, if the fit isn't good,you're working hard to overcome obstacles
that aren't really things you can overcomeand feeling yucky about that person
feeling, like they're not moving forwardand the whole relationship is not good.
(32:02):
You
don't
want the wrong people.
No, and that's why you need to becontinually building on your self
awareness of your, I think about myskill set, my character, and if it's
going to interplay with somebody else's.
And at no point does it causeme offense or upset that it just
isn't going to because it's not areflection of myself or yourself.
If that's the case for you.
(32:22):
It's just differentpeople on different paths.
And that's fine.
Yeah.
I was thinking when you were talkingabout being around people who are
moving in a similar direction.
I've found that's been the part of mygroup coaching program that's been the
most impactful I put together thesefantastic modules and I've got this
(32:44):
planner and it's based in ACT and allof these great evidence based things
and it takes people in a purpose.
And people value that for sure.
But when I ask my clients, what's beenthe most impactful part, they always say
that it was a safe space in a community ofpeople that were supporting their growth,
that there was this sense of safety,community, reflection, observation,
(33:06):
collaborative problem solving.
And it's really neat because.
I can often just sit backand watch the magic happen.
I'm certainly, as a coach, but,if all of these people are using
their mirror neurons and that senseof social alignment and creating
fitting
in and moving in that direction ofunhustling and finding more values
(33:29):
alignment and getting out of thathabitual burnout cycle, and where
there's that just natural socialmovement toward that it's less effortful
for each individual and for me.
Yeah.
And I think that's, what's wonderfulabout online work because sometimes
people are, you know, they're stuckin a geographical location with a
certain circle of people that are nottraveling in the same direction as them.
(33:51):
Maybe they're swimmingupstream somewhere else.
And so having that camaraderie onlinewith a group or a person is powerful.
And I don't underestimatethe power of that.
We're meant to be in groups, we'remeant to be in community as humans.
And I think it justpropels us further forward.
Yeah, most definitely.
What is, what's on the horizon for you?
(34:11):
What do you kind of see in thenext few years for your evolution?
Oh gosh,
yeah.
I mean, on the one hand,I'm just super open, right?
I'm just in this where my river flows,and I'm not a sort of natural hippie,
so that's quite an unusual thing forme to say, but it's, it really is
like where everything's going to flow.
I'm going to remain open because in thepast, I've always been quite linear.
(34:32):
This is what I'm going to do.
This is how I'm going to do it.
And now I'm like, well,I've got multiple options.
Let's see where it goes.
But I see opportunity locally inworking and building women in business.
I'm on a panel for, local womenin business here, and I'm doing
some speaking events there.
I also see myself building intofurther executive coaching with some
(34:53):
organizations I've connected with.
And I want to continue to build, thefollowing around Burnout Recovery, because
I'm sure you also maybe come across this.
I meet many people who are burnt out.
And they know it, or they'restruggling in some way.
They're not quite ready tostep out for themselves yet.
sometimes they're just not quite there.
And I want to build more strength andmore trust and more community so that
(35:18):
people can feel super safe doing that.
And just, you know, people, sometimespeople come to me in a very fragile place.
And I always say my program,my, my program is one on one.
So it's very individualized.
So I have a curriculum that I verymuch, bend the curriculum to meet people
where they're at and help them flowthrough the process in a very natural
(35:38):
manner and people can be very fragile.
So I want to be very gentle with peopleand build them but continue to just allow
people space to step out of themselves.
That's
my hope and dream for the future
Oh, I love that
How about you Carlyn?
What's your?
(35:59):
Where's your river flowing?
Where's your Kawa river going?
Well, it's actually right here.
It's on the wall, it's in a chart.
But actually, before, before I go there,I wanted to share a bit of a thought
on the fragile people in burnout.
Because a lot of my work over theyears has been third party payer funded
(36:22):
work with people who are off work dueto even very often it is a burnout.
And very often I have to actually holdthe reins a little bit because some people
want to achieve their way out of burnout.
Yes.
Yes.
At a point where they're experiencingillness, they're experiencing severe
(36:42):
depression that started out asburnout, where their nervous system
is essentially, all dysregulated.
They need to rest first, and theyhaven't allowed themselves to rest
because they're trying to tick allthe boxes for all the self care and do
all the challenges and those things.
It's really hard to convincethem to slow down because that
feels really uncomfortable.
(37:03):
Right.
I was one of those people once.
And you're right, you're absolutely right.
It's the idea around rest.
And some of my work in the UnitedKingdom was very similar to yours
where I would actually be contractedin by a company to work with
somebody who's off long term sick andreally support them back into work.
But through an individualized programthat was independent of the employer.
(37:23):
And I would love to get, do moreof that here in the United States.
I'm just trying to figure out how theUnited States works all of the time.
That's an area of growth thatI have connected with HR needs
and the laws are different, etc.
But I found, you know, when Iwas doing that work in the United
Kingdom, that, yeah, you're right,people have tried really hard, right?
And I like to say they logic their way outof it, they're trying, they're checking
(37:46):
the box, and actually they haven't donethe piece, of how am I actually feeling?
Yeah.
and why?
And sometimes it's stuff that's beenbrought up for them that happened a
long time ago, or that, they're justfeeling rubbish about themselves, right?
They just, for some people they have areally deep wound that's already open.
And that one project that didn't workout, work brought everything up and then
(38:08):
they just couldn't cope with going in.
And I unpick that with them aswell because like I say, as you do,
you meet people where they're at.
That's been a big piece of work.
But yeah, people can be very fragile andwe have to be very, very gentle with them.
That's where the therapeuticunderlying skill set comes from, right?
As I said, OTs, we use those therapeuticskills in our coaching practice.
(38:32):
It's so true.
And we with that, yeah, with that lifeexperience and that clinical experience,
we can't not bring it along with us.
Yeah.
You asked me about wheremy river is flowing.
so Kathryn Wise, she's an OT in,she's from Canada and she's a
professor at both a universityin Canada and one in California.
She and I, she had me comeand do a talk in a healthcare
(38:54):
leadership master's program.
And we just did one sessiontogether on burnout.
actually by the time this isreleased, I'll have released the
podcast interview I did with her.
But she came into my group coachingprogram and we did a little workshop
on helping OTs look at their ownjourney of business and called it
(39:16):
Burnout Through the Kawa Model.
And so everybody looked back, but did itthrough their business and look back to
our journey and different kind of turnsand twists and obstacles in the journey.
And, for me, it was how they, influenceddifferent pieces and thinking about
when I first started, actually, mydad was, he became palliative within
(39:37):
a couple of months of me startingmy business and so I had this
flexibility that I was so grateful for.
At the same time, that wasthe early days of my business.
And I hadn't reflected on thatintersection, because at the
time I was just in survival mode.
But then yeah, kind of that, thatevolution further down at different
things that there was the pandemic thatcreated a shift in a disruption, there
(40:01):
was some values misalignment before that.
There was a sense of wanting more kind ofpeace and ease for myself and to be less.
busy.
And different things I've done alongthe way there's kind of economic
changes in the last year or twointerest rates are up like things are.
Right.
Yeah.
More expensive.
That's impacting the way peopleare purchasing things, the way
(40:23):
they're investing in themselves.
Impacting my own bottom line tooin our family and things like that.
And so as I kind of look at movingforward, what I actually came up
as a conclusion, which wasn't,isn't necessarily a direction,
but a sense of defining it is
that
you can't speed up the river.
It is what it is.
Let the river care.
(40:44):
Your effort to change itis what's exhausting you.
Oh, so true.
So true.
That is so powerful, and I think ifpeople take time to truly dwell on that
and really think about their lives, yourealize that you can be trying to swim
up creek in some way or other, right,and then you have to really recognize it.
Yeah,
so true.
That's really, really powerful.
(41:05):
So I don't know where the river's going.
But.
Yeah.
I am flowing with it as well.
And, you know, sort of getting thatsense of continuing with that effort
of, or that, that direction, thatintentional direction of allowing
that flow, listening, tuninginto what feels aligned, pausing.
And, that sort of idea of therebeing a stressor and your response
(41:30):
in between is, is that power sothat it's not just a stressor and
a reaction, but stressor, pause,
reflect, align with yourvalues, and then respond.
And so, space, creating that, pausingto feel and reflect and choose
the next action intentionally.
It's not passive, but it's
(41:51):
allowing, down stream
movement
right?
Yeah, and I've done a lot oftrying to swim up the river.
Yeah.
Me too.
And I see, and I've known it and I'vedone it and I was like, it doesn't matter.
Just keep going.
You have to keep learning your lifelessons over and over again, right?
You learn them and then they slipaway and you gotta learn them again.
So it's, I almost find myselfa source of amusement at times.
(42:14):
Have you seen the, the analogy of thespiral that very often we were like, why
am I here learning this lesson again?
I thought I already learned this one.
I'm back here again.
And we can shame ourselves for it.
And the idea is that if we turn that upon its side, it's actually a spiral, like
a spiral staircase that's going up andwe're coming back to old lessons with new
(42:35):
experiences and differently and all ofthese things still are forward movement.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think as well, some of usjust need to keep growing and
learning the same thing because wehave a hard time with it, you know?
Yeah.
So yeah, but it's all forward motion.
It's
all forward motion.
Yeah, it is.
(42:56):
Now, do you screen for that morekind of severe end of burnout?
That's something that I've played aroundwith using like burnout scales, because my
sweet spot for helping people is somewherein the middle, actually, not, The full,
full, full burnout and not just inthat, oh, I'm getting a little stressed.
Like people can find someindependent resources for that,
(43:18):
but that sweet spot in the middle.
How about you?
Yeah, I do use the burnout scale, but I,for me, and I think people sometimes may
find that, frustrating, they're just like,I just want to know what it is, but I
do like to connect with people on calls.
And the reason for that is toreally understand where they are at
and if this is going to fit them.
Because as you say, some peoplecan be, they can be so fragile.
(43:39):
This just isn't the right time.
And I can give them, and I dokind of a bit of a roadmap or
signposting or just, this is what Ireally recommend for you right now.
Maybe come back to me when X, Y, and Zhas happened or when these things because,
I do have that strong ethical drive,that we're taught to have, right which
is about doing what is best for people.
And what I find is that there'ssome people who, like you said,
(44:01):
they're just a bit stressed.
I tend to, you know, I connect withthem and I establish, they don't
probably need a whole program.
They probably just need that road backagain and we just tend to get that
done together and I wish them well andI'm always, my door is open, So, yeah,
that sweet spot that you describe andI do take people that, who are really
struggling, but I also take people whoare, they're struggling but they're ready.
(44:23):
They're ready for the steps.
I take both of those demographics, andit's a slightly different journey in
terms of the program, but ultimately,for me it's my skill in teasing out
where they're at, and what their needsare, and how I can meet that, or if not.
That's a really importantpart of the step.
Yep.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I imagine too, like I know I oftenam also evaluating that environment, like
(44:48):
how much ability do they have to change?
Is there, are they in a phaseof life where, there's not a
lot that can actually change?
There's a high level of responsibilityand certainly we can impact
their coping and their ability.
Yeah.
to manage the situation.
But sometimes that can be reallyhard as you consider those.
Everybody has the choice to goand start a business and switch
(45:12):
and, you know, delegate to all thethings that are overwhelming them.
Absolutely.
But I do, Sometimes I do freewebinars as well and I find some of
those capture that audience well.
Maybe they're not in a place where theycan do something fairly transformative
at this current time, but they can applysome of the lessons, skills, ideologies
(45:34):
that
are in the webinar.
They can keep it, they can watchit back and they can start to just
have some experience of relief.
I think little pockets of reliefof being seen is powerful and
some people need to be seen.
Oh, so true.
I have a few last questions if youare ready for them that I ask people
(45:54):
at the end of the podcast, always.
What does being brave mean to you?
Yeah, I feel being brave is justfeeling all the feels and doing
something anyway, and vulnerability.
You know, people fear vulnerability,and vulnerability is, to me,
beautiful and powerful in the rightplaces, in the safe places, right?
(46:17):
Yeah, and being brave is just that,willingness to do something and a risk.
And maybe fail, and be okaywith it, and do it again.
Yes, That ability to get back up.
Fall trip, get back up.
You're not going to die.
Just keep going.
In fact, just a quick one on that theme.
I actually talk with my childrensometimes at dinner, and I say,
(46:39):
what did you guys fail today?
And they look at me, what?
What do you mean?
I'm like what, you know, I wantyou to fail at something this week.
And I want to change theirinterpretation and experience of failure.
Because if I can give them theidea that it's okay to fail,
they're more likely to try.
That doesn't mean I'm not celebratingsuccess and doing well, but I really
want, I did not grow up with thatidea around failure, and I really
(47:02):
would like to instill that in my kids.
So I try and practicethat in my daily life.
My eldest son just graduated from highschool and the speaker they had, come to
teach give the big speech was their formerband teacher and he called it the anti
motivational speech and said, hey, likego try things, screw up, go take an arts
(47:26):
class, take a, take something and drop it,like try something out, change your major.
These are all really good thingsto do and, and it's freeing and it
allows for creativity and it allows.
It absolutely does.
New experiences and flexibility.
Absolutely.
(47:46):
Yeah, I love that.
What is something braveyou've done recently?
Oh gosh, I feel like it'squite a long list to be honest.
It's like never ending list of scarythings I have to keep doing in life.
I think building a business has beenquite brave and stepping into that fully.
Yeah, I've worked really hardon building my self belief and
(48:07):
understanding my capacity is hugeand my capability is fantastic.
and I don't say that in an egoistical wayor a prideful way, just in a realization
that I have a huge ability to do things.
And that's really freeing.
And so that's something I'vehad to be brave, but I've also.
moved country and moved to differentplaces and had different jobs and that's
(48:30):
all been very very trying and requiring
a lot of bravery in many differentareas and I'm hearing from you that
huge ability to do things gives you acertain amount of confidence, faith,
like sense that it's going to workout that you have the ability to make
things work out and take risks Yeah.
(48:52):
Is that a fair interpretation?
Yeah, I think it is.
And one of the things that I, Imean, I can tangent all day on
this, so I'll try and keep short.
One of the things I really feel passionateabout is, is supporting women to
understand what it would feel like towalk into a room and truly believe in
who they are and have confidence in that,
to imagine it.
Many, many, many women cannotimagine it and we're not as women
(49:16):
and I don't just coach women.
I coach all people, but often it'swomen just because of my connections
and background experiences.
Women are not taught tosay, I feel great today.
I have good things to say.
I'm going to help people.
I'm bringing something to the tableand I'm confident in what I'm doing.
There's a journey to that place.
There's absolutely a journey,and there's a journey beyond it.
(49:37):
Okay, that's not the end point.
But I would love to buildthat much more in women.
And I, again, I model thiswith my kids, you know.
I will actively say in front of mydaughter, Mommy looks great today.
I feel wonderful.
I'm having a lovely morning.
You know, really trying to model thenotion of I, I'm confident, I have
(49:58):
strengthened myself, I'm capable, andI just want all women to feel that way.
I really do.
Yeah, again, I could keep yougoing for many hours, but I
won't.
I love that.
I've also spoken to people who takethat same confidence and knowledge
and then that feels like a pressureto then realize their full potential,
(50:20):
that they need to do all the thingsthey need to, because they're capable,
they must achieve all of the things.
And therefore playingsmall is not acceptable.
Rest is not, I have this capacityand I need to, I need to reach my
full potential, it's a differentspin on the same experience.
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
(50:41):
Thankfully I don'tstruggle with not resting.
No.
It's just not, it's just not a problem.
I'll happily take a nap in my hammock.
I love it.
But yes, you're right,people do struggle with that
and I think, again, it's a lotabout culture, our perception,
how we feel we need to be.
But again, there's been a lot of workin my journey and a lot of it's involved
(51:03):
freedom, freedom from those things.
And I think I just wish forother people to have freedom.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
And I think that there's that culturalsense to, whether it's cultural or
personal or family of origin, I suppose.
But if our self worth and our value istied to achievement, then we, don't feel
valuable as we are that often drives that
(51:26):
hustle.
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's where you often That'swhere I often, I see that a lot,
especially in the women I work withthat are kind of at an executive level.
They have been living accordingto that script, and that
hustle, and that capacity.
And then suddenly, there'sthat, wall hitting point where
they're like, hang on a minute.
(51:46):
What am I doing?
Who am I?
What does this mean about meif I don't do this anymore?
And that becomes the pieceof work that we, we focus on.
Very much a midlife
thing, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
I didn't get a sports car yet.
I think the female version, themale version tends to be the sports
car and the female version tendsto be, I'm going to run away and
stop taking care of all the people.
(52:07):
My girlfriends and I have a visionof our commune that we're going to
start when we run away from it all.
Absolutely.
Sounds great.
Sounds great.
I'll invite you.
You definitely would fit in.
Oh, good.
I'm in.
What would you like the OT listenersto be a little more brave about?
Oh, I want them to be braveabout being confident in OT.
(52:34):
We spend energy on talking about howpeople don't understand OT, or they
don't understand our roles, or etc, etc.
And actually, I would love forus to cut through the noise
and speak really confidently.
And be in spaces online talking aboutour skills, our strength, what we
bring to the table in a powerful way.
(52:56):
And I'm hoping and believing that,and again, it's been a long time
since I did my degrees, but thatthere is more language around business
and marketing in undergrad degrees,because I feel like that is key
for OTs to build their confidenceand strength in what we deliver.
Because what we deliver, Ibelieve, is absolutely fantastic.
Absolutely life changing.
(53:17):
And I don't think any other demographicis doing it, not like we do it.
So I'm super proud of ourprofession and what we achieve.
And I'm sure, I'm really aware that we'rekind of talking about entrepreneur OTs,
but I want OTs who are working in hipand knee replacements and orthopedics
to believe and understand that theyare stepping into opportunity to
(53:38):
connect with those people and transformtheir lives as they do, maybe some
more generic activities or they'rein the systems that they maybe don't
always love or, whatever it might be.
You can be an entrepreneur in whichevery area you are working in, and it
doesn't mean you're setting up a business.
It means you're blazingaway forward, right?
And whatever that might be.
Yeah,
most definitely.
(53:58):
If somebody wants to reach outto you, connect with you, consume
some of your resources, wherecan they find these things?
Yeah, I am, I'm so a Facebookperson and I'm trying on Instagram.
But I have a websitewhich is melhoman.com.
And there's an inquiry page on there.
Or you just drop me a DM on Facebook.
(54:19):
I'm very friendly.
And I'm, I love just to chat with people.
You do.
You do.
I love it.
And you're, you are soresponsive on Facebook.
We, I feel like I know you fromjust the way we interact on
different posts on Facebook.
And yeah, I appreciate you very much.
I appreciate you being here.
I'm going to put thoselinks in the show notes.
And I look forward tofurther collaborations.
(54:41):
I think that yes, at the beginning of our
Rivers will flow, right?
Yeah, most definitely.
Well, thank you very much.
Thank
you.
At the beginning of thisepisode, Mel referred to our
discussion as a meeting of souls.
And I think that's what happened here.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I thank you for listening.
It's a pleasure having Mel Homanwith us, sharing her insights on
(55:05):
overcoming hustle, nurturing ourmental health and the significance
of building strong community ties.
Mel is extending an invitation foryou to join her Facebook group.
It is now called buildingfulfillment and transformation.
I'll link it in the shownotes and it's a great place
to continue these discussionson getting out of burnout.
I'll also included a link to her website.
(55:26):
Now, if you're an occupationaltherapist who's been listening to
today's discussion and it resonatedwith you, I'd love to know about it.
A really great way to do this is to sharethe episode on Facebook on Instagram or
LinkedIn, and tag me in the post withany points on what you found helpful.
This helps the right people.
See it.
The people who need to hear this message.
(55:46):
And if you're looking for moreways to enhance your vitality and
wellbeing, I invite you to exploremy ACTivate Vitality program.
It's designed specifically tocreate a community of support for
OT business owners, just like you
aiming to get out of the types of patternsthat hook us into overworking, such as
self-doubt perfectionism, fear of failure.
And I want to get you on withloving how you live and work.
(56:08):
I'll link the activate vitality pagein the show notes for you to explore.
And then you can book a call.
I'd love to talk to you.
Remember, you're notalone in this journey.
Let's continue to build on whatwe've learned today and support
each other along the way.
You learn from the people aroundyou, from what you're listening
to the media you're consuming,the peer as you spend time with.
So you want to be surrounding yourselfwith peers who nudge you in the
(56:30):
direction that you want to be going.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast,to leave a review and share the
episode with a colleague or friend whomight benefit from the conversation.
Until next time,
be brave OTs.
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