In this episode of The BRAVE OT Podcast, I’m thrilled to bring you a highly motivating conversation with two trailblazing occupational therapists, Alyson Stover and Karen Jacobs, and their courageous journey in reshaping the landscape of occupational therapy by putting a very important occupational therapy stamp on artificial intelligence.
Alyson is the president of the American Occupational Therapy Association, an associate professor at the University of Pittsburgh in their Department of Occupational Therapy, and is an occupational therapist and clinic owner at Capable Kids in Pennsylvania.
Karen's occupational therapy practice spans over four decades. She is Associate Dean of Digital Learning & Innovation, Program Director of the post-professional doctorate in Occupational Therapy (OT) program, and Clinical Professor at Boston University’s Sargent College of Health & Rehabilitation Sciences.
Through this conversation, Alyson shares her how she is embracing bravery through accountability, advocacy, and self-care, while Karen highlights the pivotal role of intentionality and the exciting intersection of occupational therapy and artificial intelligence. We'll explore the transformative potential of AI in healthcare, including the groundbreaking Korro app, which is revolutionizing therapy for children.
I encourage you to listen through the lens of your own area of practice. How might you hear what they are doing with this technology and consider how you might embrace AI similarly or differently in your work.
OTs have a unique lens, skill set, and collaborative nature that is highly valuable in AI development, which positions us to become leaders in the AI revolution.
Whether you're an experienced practitioner or a student, I know you’ll feel inspired by this discussion of bravery and dedication. We also touch on the importance of setting boundaries, leaning into emotional intelligence, and the invaluable connections forged through global OT networks like OT4OT.
This conversation highlights the power and potential that lies within our profession—whether it’s advocating for ourselves and our clients, embracing new technologies like AI, or simply taking those brave steps to do what matters in our personal lives.
Follow Alyson and Karen through their upcoming blog on the Capable Kids website, where they'll continue empowering the OT community with valuable insights and support. You can also reach out to them here by email or social media.
Alyson Stover - adstover@pitt.edu, LinkedIn
Karen Jacobs - kjacobs@bu.edu, LinkedIn
If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider leaving us a review and sharing the podcast with your friends and colleagues. Together, we can continue to build a brave, informed, and connected occupational therapy community.
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I will be accepting applications for enrolment from OT practitioners for the ACTivate Vitality program until June 15/24, when I pause enrolment. Book a Clarity Call Here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
so I have incredible excitement about AI,and I believe so deeply that occupational
therapy must embrace it for two reasons.
One, because it will, if utilized anddesigned in the best way, it will make
our jobs so much stronger, while notadding more energy, effort, exhaustion
(00:28):
than we're already pouring into it.
And then on the flip side of that, Ibelieve that the only way that AI is going
to be able to achieve being a meaningful,powerful investment in health and
wellness is if the occupational therapyprofession is present in the design,
(00:51):
the development, and the implementation.
In this episode of The BRAVE OTPodcast, I'm thrilled to bring you a
highly motivating conversation with twotrailblazing occupational therapists,
Alyson Stover and Karen Jacobs.
In this conversation, we get into theircourageous journey in reshaping, the
landscape of occupational therapy byputting a very important occupational
(01:14):
therapy stamp on artificial intelligence.
We'll refer to it as AIthroughout the conversation.
Alyson shares her efforts in embracingbravery through accountability, advocacy,
and self care, while, Karen highlightsher pivotal role in intentionality and
the exciting intersection of occupationaltherapy and artificial intelligence.
(01:34):
We'll explore the transformativepotential of AI in healthcare, including
the groundbreaking Korro App, which isrevolutionizing therapy for children.
Now, when we get to that part, Iencourage you to listen through the
lens of your own area of practice.
How might you hear what they'redoing with this technology and
consider how you could embrace AIsimilarly or differently in your work?
(01:57):
We have a great discussion aheadabout how OTs have a unique lens,
skillset and collaborative nature thatis highly valuable in AI development
right now, which positions us tobecome leaders in the AI revolution.
I know you'll feel inspired by theirpersonal acts of bravery and their
dedication to advancing the field.
(02:18):
Stay tuned as we also touch on theimportance of setting boundaries, leaning
into emotional intelligence authenticityand the invaluable connections forged
through global OT networks, like OT4OT.
Did you know that it doesn'tstand for occupational therapists
for occupational therapy?
Whether you're an experienced practitioneror a student, this episode is packed
(02:39):
with insights on embracing innovation,taking risks and advocating for
the future of occupational therapy.
Don't miss out on this powerfuldiscussion, that's sure to ignite
passion and courage in your OT journey.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
(03:00):
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
(03:23):
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
Before we jump into today's episode, let'sgive a shout out to our sponsor, Jane,
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Welcome, both of you.
(04:26):
Welcome, Alyson and Karen.
I'm so grateful and humbled to haveyou here on The BRAVE OT Podcast.
Thanks for having us.
We're delighted to be here.
My pleasure.
My pleasure.
Would you be comfortable starting withtelling a little bit about yourself?
Alyson, would you like to go first?
(04:46):
Sure, I will go first.
And I want to just echo Karenand say thank you for having us.
I always think it's this like excitingpinch me moment when you are talking
on a podcast that you listen to, right?
It's like this weird, excitingevent, but I'm Alyson Stover and
(05:07):
I am an Occupational Therapist.
I have a private pediatric practicein a rural county in Pennsylvania.
I also work, at the Universityof Pittsburgh in their Department
of Occupational Therapyas an Associate Professor.
And I am beginning my final year in mytenure as the President of the American
(05:29):
Occupational Therapy Association.
Wow.
Talk about pinch me.
You listen to my podcast.
Your history and experience and theway you're contributing to OT really,
I really feel very grateful to, toget to have conversations with you.
This one included.
And Karen, your turn, please tellus a little bit about yourself.
(05:53):
Well, it's exciting to be theguest, because I host two podcasts.
So it's fun to have questions asked of me.
So thank you for that opportunity.
I am a professor at Boston University.
I'm also the Associate Dean of DigitalLearning and Innovation and the
Clinical, it's a clinical professor,but I'm also the program director
(06:16):
of the online post professionaldoctorate in occupational therapy.
Very proud of that.
I had a consulting practice for a very,very long time in, Theory of Ergonomics.
And I'm an early adopter, and soI love embracing new technology.
And you and I crossed paths in someways with a group of people that,
(06:40):
we both know, the beloved OT4OT.
And that's a perfect exampleof embracing technology.
Oh, yes, we had a little pre conversationa couple days ago about that crossover and
I had no idea OT4OT and the suite for OTsites have really been influential in the
(07:04):
way I've been able to shape my businessoutside of the traditional boundaries
of my private practice and being able toconnect with OTs and have such a ready
made curious and willing and open andcollaborative group of international
OTs to connect with has made such adifference in being able to develop
(07:26):
services and, and this whole coaching andmentorship I do with international OTs.
And so, I had no ideayou were behind that.
That is so exciting.
And I'm so grateful to you and thegroup of people who created that.
Oh, thank you.
And you know, I thought I would justgive a little bit of background on that
because OT4OT does stand for something.
(07:47):
It's the Online Technologyfor Occupational Therapy.
And that's what it stands for.
And it was founded by Merrolee, Sarah,Angela, Anita, Susan, and myself.
And we came together in different ways,and were all in different countries.
(08:10):
A few of them were in New Zealand,one was in New Zealand, Australia.
Canada, the UK, the US, and wecame together to form OT4OT.
And our goal was to help occupationaltherapy practitioners and
students to embrace technology.
And we're talking about 2009.
(08:32):
And so our first venture that wedid to the community, was to have
something that we called, 24VX.
Okay, ahead of our time becausewe're all used to Zoom and
being
on technology, but we created this 24hour virtual exchange, and we invited
(08:54):
people from all over the world.
And we all took turns so wemight start in Australia.
And then we would go around theworld and someone else would pick
up, and then another one of uswould pick up and it was remarkable.
So we are very excited about, we think,maybe, the beginnings of the virtual
(09:19):
world in communication of the evidenceand the science in occupational therapy.
So you gave me the opportunityto talk about this.
And it's a great memory.
Oh, I hadn't, I, Online technology for OT.
I thought it was OT4OT.
OT supporting OTs.
(09:40):
That's not it.
That's amazing.
It is.
It is in essence.
Yeah.
But it's online technology foroccupational therapy because in the,
you know, 2009 or so, we really weren'tembracing technology and some are early
adopters, but a lot of people sortof, sat back and said, I'm not sure
(10:01):
what I want to do.
And so we really wanted to be acatalyst to get the occupational therapy
profession globally on board withexchanging our knowledge and skills.
And we thought the best way to dothat was forming OT4OT and then
having our 24 hour virtual exchange.
And we did many of them.
(10:22):
We collected data on it.
We published on that as well.
So we're all still around.
And as you said, OT4OT has a suite ofdifferent groups on Facebook, and you're
active in one of them in particular.
Yes, I'm pretty, I'm quite active inOT4OT and MH4OT, Mental Health for OT.
(10:44):
I do a lot of talking there.
My private practice is in mental health,and I've had that since 2007, also
before a lot of the technology that weuse and, yeah, I definitely appreciate.
I notice too, because it'sinternational, actually there
are a lot of UK OTs in that one.
And I notice those themes, where dueto our different healthcare systems,
(11:05):
there's different representation of,or ability to engage fully in mental
health OT across different countries.
So it's always interesting to see howthese conversations come up, and then you
have to check which country are you in?
And I can see where that mightbe more of a limitation for you.
For instance, in the U.S., compared toCanada, Australia, or New Zealand, where
we have more socialized healthcare.
(11:26):
So it's very, very interesting to havethis international perspective, because
we can feel really, siloed or, if ourframe of reference is very small, we lose
sight of what is regulation by employeror, payer or, program and lose sight of
the fact that it's not OT that limits.
(11:48):
Sometimes it's it, but being connectedto other OTs who we do share a
fundamentally same frame of referenceabout occupation and helping people.
And it starts to help to tease outwhere people are getting stuck or where
some of those limitations might lie.
You're
totally right.
(12:09):
And I really think it enrichesour lives to learn from each other
and we become global citizens.
So I want to give a perfectexample of technology.
Anita is in Australia, the Sunshine Coast,and I sent her a WhatsApp earlier today.
She was sleeping, but now she's up.
And I said, do you have theexact numbers on OT4OT for me?
(12:35):
I just got her WhatsApp.
So thank you, Anita.
OT4OT has 33, 800 members.
We have 80 active groups thathave branched from our original
OT4OT, with a total of 200,706 members across all groups.
(13:00):
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
And, and it's being brave.
And let me say how that became brave.
I was at the CanadianAssociation of Occupational
Therapy Conference a while ago.
I think it must have been 2008.
(13:22):
And I've done some work with theassociation and they, through my journal
work, and they invited me there to getthe Award of Merit, which I'm so honored.
And so I went to different workshops.
And I was intrigued by this workshop.
And I don't remember thetitle, but Anita was giving it.
I was so inspired.
(13:43):
And I didn't know Anita beforehand.
I was brave in going up to her andsaying, I want to work with you.
And that started our friendship.
And working relationship thathas gone on for a long time.
Wow, I love that.
And that's a neat tie in.
(14:05):
You just never know, right?
You walk up and strike up aconversation where you feel a
kindred spirit professionally andgo, yeah, this needs to go somewhere.
And we don't get that when we'redoing online conferences, right?
There's really something prettyspecial and magical about it in person.
Alyson and I got to meettwice in person, actually.
(14:26):
And I kind of walked up to youa little bit bravely and said, I
think I'm the only Canadian here.
So can I, on behalf,
somehow I feel like I could representall of Canada in that moment, can I
just say how inspired I felt by whatyou speak, Alyson in such a way that is,
just rallies our inner brave OT that justwants to go and make a big difference.
(14:51):
Well, I appreciate that.
And, I appreciate that, that youwere brave and came up to me.
I would say even thinkingabout bravery, right?
When I was thinkingabout, when am I brave?
It is when I'm up and speaking, becausethere is a passion and a fire that I
believe lives in everyone across theglobe who pursues this profession,
(15:15):
who commits to learning how to do it,and then sharing it with consumers and
clients in so many different spaces.
And sometimes we don't always know, right?
If that passion and that firethat is sparked inside of us is
really representative of what ourcommunity is experiencing, what our
(15:38):
community wants to see move forward.
And so I always have a moment of pauseand try to build up a place of bravery
before I walk out or before I speak tosay, trust in the profession and trust in
how you experience the profession becausescary, it's scary to share your love and
your passion and not quite know if it'sthe same love and passion that your peers
(16:03):
and your colleagues, are experiencing too.
So I appreciate that, that you'vefound some inspiration, which is
great because it always seems totake a tremendous amount of courage
to, to walk up and say those words.
Oh, Alyson just made me think of abeautiful quote, and I want to share
that if that's okay, that NelsonMandela shared, and it's so wise, and
(16:29):
I quote, courage is not the absenceof fear, but the triumph over it.
And that's what, you know, that couragein being brave, I think is so critical.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I think it is something that isdefinitely required of OTs because
(16:49):
so much of the work we do, is, itappears subjective on the outside.
It appears that we're approachingjust with common sense.
Anybody else could do this.
And so often OTs lose sight of thefact that our value is our way of
seeing things, our framework, the waywe get curious, the way we observe,
(17:12):
the way we see things in context,we, the way we see people as whole
people inside of their context, socialenvironment, and all of the things and
I, a lot of the OTs that I support, arereally struggling with self doubt and
struggling to lean into that uncertainty.
And actually that was one of the, myfavorite at the CAOT conference that
(17:33):
Alyson and I were just at in Halifaxthis year and a few weeks ago, there
was a session on uncertainty thatwas really, really, really inspiring.
And it was uncertainty in the context ofeducation, but truly it goes beyond where
we're, where our lifelong learners werealways, we're always learning and, and the
sense of, I think OTs do a really good jobof getting really curious with our clients
(17:57):
in service of helping solve a problem.
And we get that, we cansee, okay, that worked out.
But I think I, I see a lot of selfdoubt coming in when standing up
and saying, well, I think we needto maybe look at this differently,
develop this differently, shift thisprogram, bring another perspective.
(18:17):
And when we get sort of out of our usand our client, I see a lot more courage
required because sometimes it's like, oh,well I don't know, does anybody agree?
I don't know.
It's hard to, it's hard to stand upand stand up for innovation and change.
And it's necessary.
I, I agree completely.
And sometimes, we're frightenedto make a mistake and fail, but
(18:40):
we've learned so much from that.
Yeah, I
remember many years ago when I wasthinking about some of the professions
that I had might want to do.
And I was young and my mother, she taughtspecial education, for individuals with
learning disabilities as well as withwhat was classified then in the U.S.
(19:02):
as emotional disturbance.
And she had seventh andeighth graders, right?
Challenging age as it is.
Yeah.
And I remember talking to her aboutthe various different things that
really interested me in healthcare.
And I have been interested inoccupational therapy for, since
I was about 10 or 11 years old.
And I said, but mom, like, how do you,I don't want to walk into a session, and
(19:24):
I don't want to spend this individual'stime, energy, and effort, and what if
it's, what if it's the wrong thing?
What if it's not what's going tobring about the change that individual
wants, or that individual needs?
What if I target the wrong thing?
And she said, Alyson never forget thatmedicine, health, and well being is
(19:45):
a practice, and if you don't fail,then you're actually not doing it.
And
so, when you walk in, and you havethe best session of your life, be
joyful and grateful that you hadknowledge that influenced how you
could build that just right session.
But when you fail, remember thatpractice requires failure because you
(20:11):
need to learn what you don't yet know.
And so pause and think about, whatis it that I am to learn in this
failure that will make me betterfor everybody moving forward?
And it's really those moments when you,about to walk into a client's room or
those moments when you're about to say,no, I'm ready to say that this is what
(20:32):
OT needs to be involved in and say itloudly to anyone willing to listen.
It's that pause of saying, hey, I mightnot say everything right, might not be
the best session, but I'm practicing withwhat I know, and if I fail, I'll learn,
and it'll make it even better next time.
And so I think that is, it kind ofaligns with what Karen was sharing
(20:55):
of Nelson Mandela's comment, right?
Like, it isn't not having fear, it'sbeing courageous amongst that fear.
And then being confident in what weknow, and what we see, and how we say
it, I think those are the pieces thatcan really help us to move forward.
And I think that, you know, avenueslike OT4OT is the perfect example
(21:22):
of how we can be in a community thatsays, you're not thinking this alone.
I so I have incredible excitementabout AI, and I believe so deeply
that occupational therapy mustembrace it for two reasons.
One, because it will, if utilized anddesigned in the best way, it will make
(21:49):
our jobs so much stronger, while notadding more energy, effort, exhaustion
than we're already pouring into it.
And then on the flip side of that, Ibelieve that the only way that AI is going
to be able to achieve being a meaningful,powerful investment in health and
(22:14):
wellness is if the occupational therapyprofession is present in the design,
the development, and the implementation.
And so, we owe it to ourselves sothat we can have the opportunity
to practice in a way that isstronger without overwhelming us.
(22:35):
And we owe it to the consumers ofoccupational therapy to be so heavily
involved in the design and rollout ofartificial intelligence and the ways that
it can impact healthcare interventions,that we owe it to them, because without
our lens, without those very things wewere just talking about, it could never
(22:55):
be designed to really see and captureall the things that we see and capture.
So really, Alyson, that was so eloquent.
I think if we're looking at how we canimpart occupational therapy practitioners
and students being brave right now,it's to open themselves up to all the
(23:18):
possibilities in artificial intelligence.
And I think if you step back,we're not talking about being,
looking at gen GPT or a Gemini,
or co pilot, we're really looking atartificial intelligence, again, that
can be brought into our interventionsthat we can help design, like Alyson
(23:41):
said, and to work collaboratively.
So, I want to challenge your listenersand all occupational therapy practitioners
and students around the globe toembrace how they can see and be brave
with embracing artificial intelligenceso that we can have a revolution
(24:05):
in occupational therapy, where we'rethe leaders in the use of artificial
intelligence to really make a differencein healthcare, which will have a positive
impact on all the people we serve.
Yes, yes.
I really feel this.
I feel that we have a responsibilityto be early adopters and shape it.
(24:29):
It's, it could be easy to sit back and letthe kinks work out and watch what happens,
But, we do bring such a unique way ofseeing the world and AI is learning.
And if we can be shaping the wayit's used and the way it's seeing
people, I think it's so much betteras so much a better resource.
Right.
We're used to working with,technologies or models that don't
(24:52):
quite fit exactly how we work.
And so being a part of this revolutionand making AI really good and fit
really well because of our uniqueway of seeing people in context.
It, I think we do have thisresponsibility and it's a little scary
because it's uncertain and it's newand, but OT is not new to innovation.
(25:13):
OT isn't new to technology.
We have always been innovating,and we have always been using
technology right back to our WorldWar II, early trailblazers, right?
Technology.
World War I.
World War I,
yes, yes.
And you know, it's interesting because Iwas reading a book and I'm looking around
at my mess of a desk with a million bookson it because I'm always reading, but
(25:38):
it's a book written by a physician veryrecently, about a year ago, discussing
like the transformation that AI willbring to healthcare delivery and that
really, it's an inevitable sort of routeor road or pathway that's going to emerge.
And the author made thisreally incredible statement.
(25:59):
And he said, the profession thatwill excel at leading this movement
is the profession that is bestequipped in collaboration and
working in a collaborative capacity.
And I think about that, and I thinkthis is where occupational therapy has
(26:24):
been the most incredible professionincluded in healthcare teams,
because we are natural collaborators.
Like, just that idea, right?
When we walk in and we talk to our client,we're not, it's not about even the idea
(26:44):
of let me hear about what you need to doand want to do and then give you some of
the resources or knowledge that I have.
It's literally walking next to our clientsand saying, let's try it together, right?
And then thinking about when we look intothe world of practice itself, particularly
as I look in the United States, right?
(27:05):
In home health, inoutpatient pediatrics, right?
We often see things like co treatments,but the consistent profession that's
always there is occupational therapy.
It might be OT and speech.
It might be OT and PT.
It might be OT and nursing.
(27:25):
It might be OT and an educatoror a paraprofessional.
But the consistent collaborator, theconsistent member of the team, is the
occupational therapy practitioner.
And so, if AI, to really have theability to affect outcomes and create
(27:46):
health and wellness is going to requirethe profession that knows how to
collaborate best, then it's almost like,yes, we must be brave, but we must be
brave in accepting our responsibility.
We have a responsibility to be the leadersin this, and it will be a little bit
scary, and sometimes a lot a bit scary.
(28:08):
But we will do it together andit's our responsibility because
of the lens we use, because of ourunique method of collaboration.
Alyson, I totally agree.
So one of the things that I thinkwe all need to be brave in anything
we do is to learn how to advocate,to learn how to communicate, to know
(28:31):
how to define occupational therapy.
And to be able to share and communicateso other people understand what
it is, and then they begin toadvocate for occupational therapy
being something that they receive.
I do think being brave is embracinginnovation and AI certainly is the
(28:55):
innovation that we need to embrace.
And we need to be the people outthere conducting research so that
we have evidence to support theefficacy of what we're doing with
AI, and any kind ofinnovation that we're using.
I love that you said about theinterprofessional collaboration.
(29:16):
That's so important.
And we need to be able toarticulate clearly our place
there, our distinct value.
Lifelong learning, you were talkingabout that at the beginning.
That's really important becausethere's that continuous knowledge.
We all need to be, I think, AI literate,that's basic, knowing the terminology
(29:39):
and all of that, and being part of that.
And it's part of also challengingthe status quo of what's going on.
We really need to be out there.
And saying, we know what's best.
And just like your mom said, maybewe'll learn some lessons from that,
(30:00):
but at least we'll be out there trying.
And I think that's so important.
I want to just add one morething about being brave.
We need to take care of ourselves.
We take care of so many people.
And I think one of the messages I'dlike to convey to your listeners
is to be brave and prioritize yourwell being too, because that will
(30:25):
allow you to better serve the peoplethat are so important in our lives.
Yes.
Yes.
And I really think there is a lotof potential for AI to help us to
reach more people and to do more.
But I also think we need to resistthe urge to go into hyper productivity
(30:50):
and just feel like we're workingharder to do many more things, right?
So embracing it as a tool to supportus in helping people, to support us
in reaching people, but resisting thaturge to now just like zoom up and ramp
up and feel more stressed than ever,because we're trying to juggle more
things because we can reach more people.
(31:11):
There's that sort of senseof technology should help us.
Right.
And not create more demands for us.
And so being able to take careof ourselves in that, I know that
it's, that was sort of just beforethe holidays, a couple of years ago
that I learned about ChatGPT andmy nervous system was vibrating.
Like there was excitement.
(31:32):
And ChatGPT isn't thebe all end all of AI.
There's so much more, right.
And we're going to talk moreabout, some ways you guys are
using AI here in a moment.
But I remember feeling this sense of, ohmy gosh, there, this is groundbreaking.
Like I need to get on board.
I also need to sit down and be calm and beintentional and be aware and curious and
(31:54):
open, but it felt, it felt overwhelmingcause the possibilities were endless.
And so it felt like this, almostthis pressure to like, I need
to get on board, I need tounderstand, I need to run with it.
And I've since kind of, yeah,keep slowing down and going, okay,
what can this tool do for me?
How can this tool help?
How can we embrace?
How can we improve what we'redoing without a pressure to
(32:18):
really be hyper productive?
Yeah, and I agree with you.
And that's why I brought up the self care.
Because if we look at and this is global,
many people are saying in ourprofession, I have compassion fatigue.
I'm burnt out.
Yeah.
I'm seeing so many clients.
(32:39):
And it's hard and here'swhere I think AI can help us.
And if it's okay with you, I'd love toshare the experience that we're having.
I've been very fortunate to be,conducting a research study in two places,
Alyson's Clinic, Capable Kids is one,and Gallant Therapy Services in Maine
(33:02):
is another, where we're looking at thefeasibility of using Korro AI, which is
a gaming experience app with children.
And this is to enrich occupationaltherapy, maybe give a little bit
of a break to the occupationaltherapy practitioner between
(33:23):
children that they're seeing.
And this gaming technology in ourstudy, we have the occupational therapy
practitioner using it for about 10 to 15minutes at the beginning of their therapy.
We have a control groupand experimental groups.
It's the experimental groupthat is using the Korro AI.
(33:45):
They're using it over a 15 week period.
Most of the children are seenonce a week for about an hour.
And then, what I think is going to bereally interesting to see the data,
we haven't analyzed anything yetbecause the study is still going, is
that, we have the children encouragedto use the Korro AI app at home.
(34:08):
So it's amplifying what we're doingin occupational therapy when we're
seeing the child just once a week.
And we're quite excited aboutwhat that home use will be like.
We have the control group where thechildren are having their regular
occupational therapy, and the workthey do at home would be what we would
(34:30):
traditionally send the child home to do.
And so I don't have any results thatare objective at this moment, but I can
share with you some qualitative thingsthat I'm hearing from the therapists.
They're sharing with me from parentsand what the kids are saying too.
And we have some objective datathat Alyson actually has observed
(34:52):
and she'll share that in a moment,maybe one of the cases that
you've observed yourself, Alyson.
But what we're hearing from thetherapists is that it is helping
them be more effective and efficient.
And effective in the way that theKorro app is actually giving objective
data from the algorithm that it has.
(35:13):
We could look at the child andestimate what they're doing.
And now, by using computer vision,where the app is actually seeing the
child, we're getting objective data.
That will be really helpful when wesubmit our documentation to show that
where the child is progressing or wherethe challenges are for the child as well.
(35:38):
So Alyson, I'm wondering, could youmaybe share what you've observed when
you've seen some of your occupationaltherapy practitioners using the app?
Yeah, yes, I would love to.
It's always exciting conversation forme and it brings about, to me, this
idea of two other places where weneed to be brave when embracing this.
(35:58):
and one is, sometimes we have to bebrave in letting some of those things go.
We don't have to be totallyin control of them, right?
And that's hard for us.
I know I personally struggle sometimeswith thinking that there is anyone or
anything that could possibly care andput as much energy and effort into
(36:19):
what you're doing with the child, as Iam doing right at that moment, right?
So letting go takes bravery sometimes.
Trusting that, and then at the sametime there's that bravery in trusting.
And so one of the most amazing thingsthat we have seen just very, almost
in a very concrete manner is we have achild that's been coming to the clinic
(36:41):
for a little over three years now.
He was in a car accident andhe has some, he has some pretty
substantial remaining deficits.
So there's a lot of tone, verylimited mobility on his left side,
particularly his left upper extremity.
But one of the things that's great abouthim is he's always been a motivated child.
(37:03):
So he's always been the childthat we know what we send him
home with, he's gonna do, right?
And he has a great motivated familyalso, they are regularly the reason
that my clinicians and myself go up acouple pounds every few weeks because
of all the sweets they send in for us,but they, they're committed, right?
(37:24):
He's committed, they're committed,he attends sessions regularly, and we
definitely have seen and continue tosee gains, but there were certain things
that we were starting to discuss anddesign because we really recognized
that after three plus years, that thismobility that we were hoping to really
generate in that left upper extremity,it likely wasn't going to happen.
(37:49):
And we have been, he has beenparticipating in Korro and for
the first time ever, we saw himspontaneously, intentionally lift his
left upper extremity up into a full,his shoulder was at full 90 degrees.
And, one of those things that, likeeverybody just starts screaming in the
(38:11):
room because you just, it, it shockedyou, and he was kind of like, what?
I'm just trying to getup the ladder, you know?
And there's two things that I think havebeen really great about this program
Korro that's really helped this, and oneis that it is occupation based, right?
Our children, this is what they do, theygame, they game on iPads and iPhones and
(38:34):
the computer and various technologies.
So he's engaging in an occupationthat his peers are engaging in also.
But when we sent him home with it,because of the incredible technology
and intellect that these sensors havewhen he is doing something where I, in
(38:58):
person, would say, oh gotta stand a littlebit taller, or, oh no, don't move your
shoulder while you're doing that, right?
Like, the very cues that I would give sothat he's definitely doing the movement
in a way that is correct and will producethe response we want, The AI Korro was
doing that for me when he's at home.
(39:18):
So even though he would go home and do allhis exercises, we never had a guarantee
that it was really being done in theway that was going to best encourage
the development of the skill, right?
He could obviously without even knowingit, be doing some modifications, and
no one at home is really going to beable to understand or observe that.
(39:41):
Korro app does.
And so not only is it engaging him,getting him excited, and making him
want to do movements that he couldn'tbefore, not because we're saying and
he can see like, oh yeah, this isall about getting my shoulder up, but
really because that's how I get the,that's how I move my astronaut, right?
(40:03):
But then on top of it, when we send himhome, we know that he's doing it in the
right way, with the right form, gettingfeedback so that we are reiterating
that motor plan in the right manner,instead of maybe building on some
of the modifications or adaptationsthat they're just naturally doing.
(40:26):
And then, we're seeing it, right?
So then we're getting this incrediblereport result that is literally evaluating
and measuring and sharing with usinformation that we can't see with our own
eyes, or that maybe just by human errorsometimes has some inconsistencies in it.
(40:49):
So I know that when we look at thingslike inhibition, there's this great
one that we report on often for himof movement dissociation, right?
So like, I don't know, sometimes I thinkthat he is dissociating his movement
and he recognizes that's his arm.
And then, I'll have another clinician nextto me that totally thinks oh no, I can see
(41:11):
how he's just kind of moving as a unit.
Well, now these sensors aremeasuring it the same way every time.
And they're telling me when he'sdissociating movement, when he's not.
And so it's really generating, thetherapists say we have better ideas
for more targeted, more effective,more efficient approaches to the
(41:33):
interventions that we're doing.
We have this incredible, consistentdata that I can be brave and take
vacation time because I know myfill in is going to be reporting on
the exact same data because they'recoming through the sensor collection.
And then on top of it, I know that whenthey go home and they're doing that follow
(41:54):
up, if they're doing it in a way that isincorrect or inaccurate that might build
a, maybe a more difficult motor plan, butthey're being corrected, and corrected
in a way that I would correct them.
And, it has just, I still, youknow, we all just jumped screaming
as he, brings that arm up.
We had not seen in three plus years,we had not seen more than maybe a 10
(42:17):
degree and very rarely was it spontaneouswhile he was engaged in an activity.
It was more like when he was reallytrying, when we were asking him to,
more of that like sort of exercise way.
Here, he's doing it, he's playingand he's up at 90 degrees and we're
shouting and I have to say, I thinkthe funniest part of that whole moment
(42:39):
was afterwards he said, you know what,I think you guys got something here.
You should let otherpeople try this thing out.
The children are really giving greatfeedback on what they want to see.
So the games are an astronautgoing to Mars, and there's lots of
different missions that they do.
(43:00):
Parents are reporting that theirchild who perhaps wasn't doing that
work at home is now asking for theirmobile device right away so that they
can continue on their daily mission.
So it's become a win win for theclinics, the occupational therapy
practitioners working with the child.
(43:23):
The child their self and the family.
So we're very excited and I am eagerlylooking forward to analyzing the
data so that we can have objectiveoutcomes that we can share with others.
That
is really, really neat.
I'm curious, how does Korroknow what to watch for?
(43:47):
Because I can imagine if you've got10 different clients in a day, you're
working on 10 different things.
So how does it know what thetargets are and what to watch for?
The Korro games were designedby occupational therapy
practitioners in pediatrics.
So they identified the skillsthat they were seeing, they were
(44:09):
doing in occupational therapy.
And they've worked with data scienceand computer science scientists to
help them create this algorithm.
And then the computer visioncomes in with sensors all over
the body that they're seeing.
So we're not wearing any sensors.
The computer vision is actuallyseeing this to give the feedback.
(44:35):
So there were occupational therapistsinvolved in essentially working
with these technical people tothen create something very useful.
How does one, like how does one
into that?
Yes.
And I love that because here'swhere we have to be brave.
(44:56):
And that's what I'm hoping,listeners will hear.
We were very lucky to begin towork with a company Korro, that
embraced occupational therapy.
And one of the reasons it did,because the person who owns the
company loves children and ismarried to an occupational therapist.
(45:17):
So here's where talking about occupationaltherapy, always explaining, Hi, I'm Karen
Jacobs, I'm an occupational therapist, andexplaining what it is over and over again.
I'm sure this owner of the company's wifeshared that with him over and over again.
(45:38):
But one of the things that Alyson sharedat the beginning is that we're everywhere.
We are the profession that sees theclients, In this case it's pediatrics,
but we're the profession that has theselonger term relationships with our
clients and the caregivers as well.
(46:00):
And so we're there to be able tosay, we need this or we need that.
So I want occupational therapypractitioners to be brave and to
contact companies that are beginning tocreate these innovations and say, hi,
I would like to be part of your team.
(46:23):
Maybe I'll be an advisor.
Maybe I'll be a consultant.
I have these skills.
I'm an occupational therapy practitionerand I have a distinct value.
I'm ready to work with you.
And that takes courage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have to knock on the, you know, maybewe knock on the door the first time and
(46:46):
guess what's going to happen after that?
They're going to be after us to help them.
I, that's, there's many places you canhear Erik Johnson and Kaitlyn Jones's
story about designing and developingadaptive gaming for Microsoft, right?
They, they literally Erikand some engineers were just
(47:06):
kind of doing it for fun.
And they, there was like this call fromMicrosoft, like a hey, try it we just want
to see what people are doing out there.
And they brought it.
And now Microsoft is employing multipleoccupational therapy professionals
in not just adaptive gaming, but likein all the spaces of how they are
(47:29):
developing and designing products, right?
And it took this idea of saying,that bravery, why not me?
Why not
me?
I'm doing it, and and as Erik alwayssays, his clients were loving it,
and Microsoft had like, hey, here'sa challenge to everybody, and so
he was like, why wouldn't I submit?
And it's catapulted, and I'vealways said, it doesn't take long
(47:54):
for anyone who is truly engagingwith a member of the occupational
therapy community to value it.
Our value is easily recognized.
It's getting in front, havingthe bravery to say, you actually
have to see it and hear it.
We have to be engaged in thisreciprocal kind of experience because
(48:17):
within minutes people fall in love.
They say, this is what we need.
But if we don't, if we don't makethe call, if we don't send the
email, if we don't submit for thejob then they're not going to know.
to call on us.
And so we have to be brave andsay, I'm going to submit it.
And I always say sometimes thatmeans bravery and like submitting
(48:39):
for that job that has nothingrelated to occupational therapy in
the title and being okay with that.
But just making sure that you'realways describing yourself as an
Occupational Therapy Professional.
So go ahead, take thatjob of like design expert.
And say, the reason I'm good at beinga design expert is because I have
(49:02):
the training of occupational therapy.
Yes, I think that this is,it's so exciting too, because
I've heard you guys say this.
I heard you first talk on the OTPotential Podcast, and we made sure
not to make this a direct copy of that.
So if a person wants to go listento more of you guys speaking, go
listen to the OT Potential Podcast.
(49:23):
But also I'm hearingthis from other people.
So at the CAOT conference a coupleweeks ago, part of the closing ceremony
is Rosalie Wang was talking about justthis, that she is finding that in these
AI spaces, they are loving the OT voice.
They're loving what wehave to bring to the table.
They're really appreciating ourcontribution and I love hearing
(49:45):
this from different sources.
It's not just you guys excitedabout this one project.
This is, I'm hearing it in other places.
And it's really indifferent countries, right?
It's really exciting.
It's exciting.
And we'll probably see an OT4OT with AI.
And maybe we'll be theones that get it going.
One of the things that I've beendoing is, I'm very active on LinkedIn.
(50:11):
And I've put in my skill set ArtificialIntelligence, and that has been a magnet
of people who are interested in AI,people in AI, and people who are looking
for people to work with them in AI.
So people are reaching out to me now.
(50:31):
I'm signing up to join other groupsthat are AI groups and newsletters.
So I guess what I'd like to encourage,if this is something that you want to
get involved in and you're nervous,you're not quite brave yet, That
might be a really easy step to take.
Not necessarily putting down that youhave the skills in AI, unless that
(50:53):
is true, but seeking out on LinkedInand some of the other social media
sites, people who are doing AI andbringing together this community
of practice in AI, in occupationaltherapy, but also interprofessionally.
I think we can be part of this revolutionand be out there and creating the products
(51:17):
that will really make a differencein the lives of people that we serve.
Well, that is a great
call to action.
I like it a lot.
Yeah, Karen and I wererecently talking about this, I
think, with just one another.
And, you know, we were reallysaying that AI in healthcare
(51:37):
has the ability to be what thecalculator became, to the accountant.
This idea that we, that the bankerno longer, they're not doing
most of the math on their own.
My, my husband was a bankerprior to us opening the clinic.
That's when he was brave.
He was brave when he quithis job to jump on my dreams.
(51:59):
But, he would say to me often, youactually do math like in your head
and on paper much better than I do,because I'm always using the calculator.
And it frees your brain so that youcan pay attention to some of those
other more complex things, right?
AI, it's going to be the calculatorto Healthcare Delivery, And so it is
(52:20):
going to be a revolutionary change.
It's going to transform, the way peoplecan interact, engage, seek, and find
healthcare, and the delivery of it.
I think when there are revolutionsto be excited about that can bring
about such optimal opportunities theexperience to enhance and expand equity,
(52:48):
then why not be the early adopter?
Why not come in?
And why not put our namesright along with it?
That it is not just an AI revolution,it's the OT and AI revolution.
Yeah, and Alyson I'm going todo a little bit of a reveal.
Alyson and I are going to start a blog.
(53:11):
And we'll have it on Capable Kids, andwe're going to just explore all the
potential in AI from our lens, but wewant to share, we want to, also call to
action again others to share with us.
And I know you'll let us give ourcontact information at the end but we
(53:31):
really would like to bring everyone in.
We want a community of practice.
We want all of you to be part of this.
And just like you started out, maybeyou can feel overwhelmed right now.
Just put a little toein and see how it feels.
Be brave.
(53:53):
We're going to take opportunities toalso share where some of the difficulties
that were encountered by individuals.
It's a practice where wecan learn from one another.
And so we'll certainly talk about whatwere some of those learning curve pieces.
I joke regularly no one in mypersonal circle would tell you
(54:15):
that I'm like a tech savvy person.
That was like never my, itwasn't really my interest.
I just, it wasn't really, I was neverthe one that could set up your TV or
set up my own computer, but there'ssomething beautiful about AI that takes
it outside of tech and that AI is this,it's like my own version of occupational
(54:42):
therapy walking alongside of me.
It's not just technology.
It's an opportunity to do everything Ialready engage in better and stronger.
And so it, you can be that personthinking, well, I don't know.
I've never really been into tech or that.
Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
(55:03):
AI is an opportunity for us to embracenew ways of doing things that make us
stronger as the person we already are.
Yeah.
And Alyson I love that.
It's in some ways our thought partner.
Yeah.
And I also want to do a shout outthat Alyson is quite a few years
(55:26):
younger than me, and we're twodifferent really generations of being
occupational therapy practitioners.
And I think that, it's not just forpeople who are coming out and entry
level, or five years into the profession.
It's for all of us.
Any generation, any age of an occupationaltherapy practitioner, we can all
(55:52):
learn and have AI as, as our thoughtpartner to enrich what we're doing.
And it's here.
So whether we resist it, it's goingto take a lot of energy to resist it.
It's already integrated intoso many parts of our lives.
And so why not, yeah, why notuse it as a therapy partner?
Why not use it as an assistant, whynot use it as that objective extra
(56:17):
pair of eyes or ability to extendour reach to, to help clients more
frequently and in different environments.
And yeah, I think that is really, yeah,really, really beautiful call to action.
May I ask you questions thatI ask everybody at the end
of the OT pod, the Brave OT?
(56:40):
What does being brave mean to you?
I've put a lot of thought to beingbrave because I have to say when I
started my career as an occupationaltherapy practitioner, I wasn't brave.
I didn't have the courage, that Isee evolved in myself over the years.
(57:01):
And I've been an occupationaltherapy practitioner for 45 years.
So for me, it helped in becomingcompetent in what I was doing
and becoming more confident.
I do think being brave encompassesmore than just like a physical courage.
(57:23):
I think it involves speaking out,having a voice against injustices
that we're seeing, taking calculatedrisks now, acting despite being
fearful, and that's what I'm doing now.
And for me, it was an evolution.
(57:45):
It took a while to become.
But I think being curious has helpeda lot, and also finding my voice and
feeling like I have something to say,but also looking at what's happening
in the world and making sure that I'mnot a passenger, but I'm a driver.
(58:10):
And that's really important to me.
Beautiful.
That was beautiful.
Wow, Karen.
But you haven't seen me drive yet, Alyson.
Yes, I rode in the car with you.
You haven't seen me putmy, my pedal to the metal.
Yeah.
(58:31):
So I'm a fast driver.
Some of those decisionscame from that too.
So I, when I think about whatdoes being brave mean to me,
being brave means I'm scared.
Every time that I'm brave, I amscared, and so it's about being scared.
it is about those risks, andfailure and, and finding your
(58:57):
voice in each one of those.
Finding your voice in your fear,finding your voice in the risks, finding
your voice in the failures, because Ithink for a long time, we have really
approached things from speaking fromour strengths and our successes and
(59:20):
that's not necessarily the way thatwe can continue to evolve into an
effective anything, profession, society.
I think being brave is trusting yourselfand, and not looking for anyone else to
validate what you believe, or what youthink, or how you want to move forward.
(59:45):
And I think being brave is engagingin the discourse and the dialogue.
And saying, I'm brave in not justtrusting myself, but trusting that
what others believe is what isright for their path right now.
And that we can exist in a world wherebravery comes from accepting what is mine
(01:00:14):
and where I am and accepting that can bepolar opposite of what is you and where
you are and that bravely we can stilljust walk the journey of life together.
Brave to me, I guess, is just the ideaof always having that awareness that
(01:00:37):
life is scary, but scary is not bad.
Scary is growth and scary is brave.
And you have given us a brave spaceand we thank you for your podcast that
(01:00:57):
is allowing us and others, to be braveand to listen and to have more courage.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I think that it is, we do perceivefear to be bad, and our nervous
systems are designed to respond tofear and get us to stop moving toward
(01:01:20):
the thing that makes us fearful.
And in that way it's obviouslyperceived as negative, but ultimately,
without fear, you aren't being brave.
If you have no fear, you'rejust doing something, right?
And so that sense of their needing tobe that sense of, okay, this is scary.
This is taking a risk, but atthe same time, I'm a scientist.
And I am collecting data.
(01:01:43):
And I am approaching this asan objective, curious, party.
And this is how we observeour clients, right?
If we only see them succeeding atthings, not struggling with things, we
don't know what to help with, right?
We need to see where they'refaltering or where they're struggling.
And we get that, right, we get that.
And I've seen my consent form.
(01:02:04):
I say to people, I workin adult mental health.
And so I often say too that, the realmagic of what happens here is actually
what you do in between our sessions.
Like, we're going to work in oursessions to, to build skills and problem
solve and come up with strategies andideas, but you have to go use them.
And, so and I want to hear how it went.
And if it doesn't go well, Iespecially want to hear about it
(01:02:25):
because I learned so much more aboutwhat didn't go well than what did.
So please don't tell me, yeah,I did it it was fine even if it
wasn't, I want to hear about it.
Like let's, that's where the nittygritty juicy problem solving, let's
get in there and see, okay, wellwhat made that harder than this?
And what, okay, now I seethe influence of that.
How do we manage that?
(01:02:46):
And none of that is failure.
All of that is data.
That's where we thrive.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, you know, what you're describingis the lessons that we learn.
And I think if we embrace thatconstruct more, we might be happier.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
(01:03:07):
I totally agree with you.
Okay.
The next question is, what issomething brave you've done recently?
I was thinking a couple of things.
One was how I've embracedartificial intelligence.
And then I was thinking about personally,
I decided that I want a legacyfor my family, where my children
(01:03:32):
and grandchildren can experienceliving in a country outside the US.
I did that when I was a child.
My parents had us living in Italyand as an adult I lived in Iceland on
a Fulbright, which changed my life.
So I bought a little teenypiece of land in the Azores.
And I'm building a house there.
(01:03:52):
Eventually I'll probably make it intoan Airbnb or something like that.
But that was really brave.
And, it was intentional and veryscary and it isn't built yet.
So I'm still in thatfear mode of being brave.
So I'd like to encourage peopleto think about being brave in
(01:04:13):
all aspects of their lives.
I have largely been one of thoseindividuals that doesn't like to share
excitement about work that I'm doingor things that we're bringing into the
clinic until I have like incrediblevalidation that it worked, right?
And so the idea of even sharingthe research that Karen has been
(01:04:39):
conducting in Capable Kids and some ofthe things that we're seeing, I just
that was brave for me.
I, I, it's scary to say whatyou're excited about or what you're
trialing, early on in that phase.
And I was excited, and my cliniciansat work at Capable Kids are amazing,
(01:04:59):
and they were excited, and theywanted it right away, but I feel
an ownership to, engaging, I don'twant people to perceive that, there
was some error on their part, right?
So I never want to talk about anythinguntil I know that it's going to
represent the work that they do so well.
And It's been a brave space to talkabout AI, even thinking about just my
(01:05:23):
appreciation of AI being in settings.
There's a lot of chaosand noise around AI.
There's a lot of controversy anddiscourse and, it's been real bravery
to say, I am excited for this.
And so I think that's one placethat I've been, that I've been
really expressing bravery.
(01:05:44):
And I would say another place that I'vebeen expressing bravery is personally,
I had been thinking about this, isaccountability without invalidating me.
So I've been really entering somespaces of dialogue and discourse.
And sometimes it's in meetings with,members of the OT community where
(01:06:06):
we're trying to make decisions, andsometimes it's in my family room with
my children, but, I have often foundthat I can say I'm sorry and I can
take the accountability, but then Ipersonally begin to invalidate myself.
I made that error and so I withdraw and Idon't continue to give my contributions.
(01:06:31):
And, and lately I've been,trying to take on that space
of bravery to say, I'm sorry.
When I have done things that wereerrors, mistakes, or harms, but that's
still okay for me to continue to bean equal member of this conversation.
And so that's, I think, personally where Ihave been trying to journey in my bravery,
(01:06:53):
and, I think that it's reflective,like Karen said, it's reflective
across, personal and professional.
I think bravery to me right now meanstaking care of myself, meaning it's okay
to not read email for a day or not answera phone call, and just, that's what
bravery looks like, and then being ableto not have to say I'm sorry for that,
(01:07:16):
to say I was taking care of me, and I'mhopeful that we could connect again soon.
Alyson, you said something that's reallyimportant, and it's something I went to a
workshop today about, work life balance.
It's setting boundaries and beingbrave in setting boundaries.
And that's something I alwaysfeel I'm a work in progress.
(01:07:39):
So we can help each other.
Yes.
So what I'm hearing in what you'retalking about is, when both of what you
are talking about is that sense of reallyleaning into knowing what's important to
you and pursuing that, really also thesense of, I'm hearing themes of emotional
intelligence in this as well, right?
(01:08:00):
And that sense of being able to releaseego and really stand in uncertainty
and willingness and openness and Ithink a great leader or, somebody
who's really grounded in themselvesand who they are can say, I don't know.
And that's okay, right?
They can say, oh, I messed up.
(01:08:22):
And I'd like to continue and figurethis out and learn from this experience.
And that doesn't make us weak or fallible.
That makes us actually more respectedand stronger, if we can say that.
I much more respect somebody whocan acknowledge their errors rather
than profess to know everythingand not acknowledge any difficulty.
And it's interesting onthe boundary side, too.
(01:08:43):
So in my ACTivate Vitality program, Icreated this program because I really
love helping super smart, super sensitivepeople who get stuck, and often get stuck
in overthinking and fear of failure andperfectionism and that sort of thing.
And so I drew in a crowd and, what'sreally interesting is the stuff we end
up working on is a lot around boundaries,a lot around releasing some of those
(01:09:08):
people pleasing things, standing inour values and our integrity, and
making intentional moves rather thanreactive moves that are fear driven.
And so I'm using a lot of acceptanceand commitment therapy actually
to empower these OTs to stand talland strong in what's important.
And that's really uncomfortable and reallylean into the curiosity and vulnerability
(01:09:31):
and, and work and live intentionally.
And so I've heard all of those themescome out in what both of you just said,
Thank you.
I made a big decision about my life20 years ago to be intentional.
And that has been, you wanted somethingmore recent about being brave.
(01:09:52):
So 20 years was far away.
But I think the intentionalityis extremely important.
And it takes time to reflect to havethat intentionality and journaling
helps a lot, being observant aboutthe world and stepping back and
saying, what did that mean to me?
(01:10:13):
And I do think another thing that's reallyimportant is social participation, having
friends, having colleagues, being partof the world, engaging in the world.
whatever that might be is critical.
Yeah, that's a good life.
So I
think it helps being brave, too.
Yeah.
(01:10:34):
What is something you would liketo see OTs be a little bit more
brave about in the coming years?
I want them to be advocates.
I, obviously I want them tobe brave in, looking at what's
really important for themselvesand the clients that they serve.
I'd like them to open themselves up to theopportunities in artificial intelligence
(01:10:57):
and see how they can be a driver, not apassenger, in this and be part of this
I think revolution that we're seeing,that can really make a difference.
And some of the things I shared before,being lifelong learners and making sure
there's work life balance, which takestime and bravery to do, and challenging
(01:11:18):
the status quo is really important.
I'd like people to be educated consumers.
There's a lot going on in theworld now, and there's so much
information that's accurate anda lot that may not be accurate.
And I think really making a concertedeffort to look at where their values
(01:11:41):
are in making some decisions and whatthey're seeing happening in the world.
And I think that in doing all of thosethings, I, so I want us to be brave
in, as you said, not always havingto be liked, not always having to
(01:12:02):
be the people pleasers, but as Karensaid, be an advocate, and sometimes
an advocate sits you in a space ofdiscomfort or uncomfort for a little
bit, but, be brave in that advocacy.
I want us to be brave in our attempts ofdoing the advocacy and doing the work.
And, yeah, I would echo Karen again.
(01:12:23):
I want us to be brave intaking care of ourselves.
We're really good attaking care of others.
I want us to be brave in takingcare of ourselves and taking care
of each other as a community.
No one will ever know, the cognitiveload or what we carry with us day to day,
(01:12:45):
like our colleagues who are doing it too.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
How can people reach you if theywould like to learn a little
bit more or have a conversation?
Sure.
Easy to reach me, on email.
Okay.
kjacobs@bu.edu and I'm onjust about all social media.
(01:13:14):
Still a little reluctant to go on TikTok
And likewise, I'm usuallyquite accessible via email.
And that would be, adstover@pitt.edu andI would say, also, I'm usually available
(01:13:37):
on most of the social media platforms.
I would say that LinkedIn is probably theone I spend the most time on, so please
reach out, connect, send a message.
I love to just sometimes start there andcatapult the conversation to other places.
Wonderful.
And when you have a link for the blogthat you're starting, will you share it
(01:13:58):
and I can add it to this podcast episode?
Yeah, so we are www.capablekidsrehab.com.
And when you go on there, there'llbe a tab for blog and, click on that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Really appreciate it.
Well OTs, that wraps up another insightfulepisode of The BRAVE OT Podcast.
(01:14:23):
A heartfelt, thank youto our incredible guests.
Alyson Stover and Karen Jacobs.
For sharing their wisdom, experiencesand tales of courage with us.
Today's conversation highlightedthe power and potential that
lies within our profession.
Whether it's advocating for ourselvesand our clients embracing new
technologies like AI, or simplytaking those brave steps to do what
(01:14:45):
matters most in our personal lives.
Remember, you can follow Alyson and Karenthrough their upcoming blog on the Capable
Kids website, where they'll continueempowering the OT community with valuable
insights and support as they ventureinto this application and research in AI.
Now at the time, this episode airsin early June of 2024, I am accepting
(01:15:07):
OT practitioners into the ACTivateVitality program for only a couple
more weeks before pausing enrollment.
I'm not sure how long the pausewill be to be really honest.
In reflecting on my life, I noticed aneed to heed my own advice and create
space to focus on what matters most.
I'm creating space by pausing my salesand marketing efforts for awhile so that
(01:15:29):
I can fully focus on the clients insidethe program, my health and wellbeing,
and my mental health OT practice.
I absolutely love being with thisgorgeous group of humans in the
ACTivate Vitality program whoelevate each other on every call.
It has members like Jessica Miller,who shared this beautiful review.
She says, "The ACTivate Vitality programchanged my life, Carlyn and the community
(01:15:52):
and act helped me to listen to my bodyand take so many courageous steps.
I quit my traditional job incorporate healthcare and created a
unique OT business model that fitsmy life, my interests and my skills.
My career now adds to my vitalityand the community continues to
support each other in unwinding ourself-worth from our productivity.
(01:16:13):
I'm honored now to offer a monthlyembodied practice nourishing your nervous
system to the ACTivate Vitality community.
This is just one more way Carlyn hasdeeply listened and has helped encourage
me to step into my authentic self.
I highly recommend the program to anyOT entrepreneur looking for support in
creating or adjusting their businessto match their internal values and
(01:16:34):
find a path that is honoring andsustainable to your true self."
Thank you, Jessica.
. If you'd like to join us, pleaseset up a clarity call with the
link in the show notes before thegreat pause on June 15th, 2024.
Now, If you're enjoying The BRAVE OTpodcast, please consider leaving us a
review and sharing the podcast episodewith your friends and colleagues.
(01:16:57):
Together, we can continue to builda brave informed and connected
occupational therapy community.
Until next time be brave OTs.
so I have incredible excitement about AI,and I believe so deeply that occupational
therapy must embrace it for two reasons.
One, because it will, if utilized anddesigned in the best way, it will make
our jobs so much stronger, while notadding more energy, effort, exhaustion
(00:28):
than we're already pouring into it.
And then on the flip side of that, Ibelieve that the only way that AI is going
to be able to achieve being a meaningful,powerful investment in health and
wellness is if the occupational therapyprofession is present in the design,
(00:51):
the development, and the implementation.
In this episode of The BRAVE OTPodcast, I'm thrilled to bring you a
highly motivating conversation with twotrailblazing occupational therapists,
Alyson Stover and Karen Jacobs.
In this conversation, we get into theircourageous journey in reshaping, the
landscape of occupational therapy byputting a very important occupational
(01:14):
therapy stamp on artificial intelligence.
We'll refer to it as AIthroughout the conversation.
Alyson shares her efforts in embracingbravery through accountability, advocacy,
and self care, while, Karen highlightsher pivotal role in intentionality and
the exciting intersection of occupationaltherapy and artificial intelligence.
(01:34):
We'll explore the transformativepotential of AI in healthcare, including
the groundbreaking Korro App, which isrevolutionizing therapy for children.
Now, when we get to that part, Iencourage you to listen through the
lens of your own area of practice.
How might you hear what they'redoing with this technology and
consider how you could embrace AIsimilarly or differently in your work?
(01:57):
We have a great discussion aheadabout how OTs have a unique lens,
skillset and collaborative nature thatis highly valuable in AI development
right now, which positions us tobecome leaders in the AI revolution.
I know you'll feel inspired by theirpersonal acts of bravery and their
dedication to advancing the field.
(02:18):
Stay tuned as we also touch on theimportance of setting boundaries, leaning
into emotional intelligence authenticityand the invaluable connections forged
through global OT networks, like OT4OT.
Did you know that it doesn'tstand for occupational therapists
for occupational therapy?
Whether you're an experienced practitioneror a student, this episode is packed
(02:39):
with insights on embracing innovation,taking risks and advocating for
the future of occupational therapy.
Don't miss out on this powerfuldiscussion, that's sure to ignite
passion and courage in your OT journey.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
(03:00):
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
(03:23):
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
Before we jump into today's episode, let'sgive a shout out to our sponsor, Jane,
a clinic management software and EMR.
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switching your software for a whilenow, the Jane team understands that
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Welcome, both of you.
(04:26):
Welcome, Alyson and Karen.
I'm so grateful and humbled to haveyou here on The BRAVE OT Podcast.
Thanks for having us.
We're delighted to be here.
My pleasure.
My pleasure.
Would you be comfortable starting withtelling a little bit about yourself?
Alyson, would you like to go first?
(04:46):
Sure, I will go first.
And I want to just echo Karenand say thank you for having us.
I always think it's this like excitingpinch me moment when you are talking
on a podcast that you listen to, right?
It's like this weird, excitingevent, but I'm Alyson Stover and
(05:07):
I am an Occupational Therapist.
I have a private pediatric practicein a rural county in Pennsylvania.
I also work, at the Universityof Pittsburgh in their Department
of Occupational Therapyas an Associate Professor.
And I am beginning my final year in mytenure as the President of the American
(05:29):
Occupational Therapy Association.
Wow.
Talk about pinch me.
You listen to my podcast.
Your history and experience and theway you're contributing to OT really,
I really feel very grateful to, toget to have conversations with you.
This one included.
And Karen, your turn, please tellus a little bit about yourself.
(05:53):
Well, it's exciting to be theguest, because I host two podcasts.
So it's fun to have questions asked of me.
So thank you for that opportunity.
I am a professor at Boston University.
I'm also the Associate Dean of DigitalLearning and Innovation and the
Clinical, it's a clinical professor,but I'm also the program director
(06:16):
of the online post professionaldoctorate in occupational therapy.
Very proud of that.
I had a consulting practice for a very,very long time in, Theory of Ergonomics.
And I'm an early adopter, and soI love embracing new technology.
And you and I crossed paths in someways with a group of people that,
(06:40):
we both know, the beloved OT4OT.
And that's a perfect exampleof embracing technology.
Oh, yes, we had a little pre conversationa couple days ago about that crossover and
I had no idea OT4OT and the suite for OTsites have really been influential in the
(07:04):
way I've been able to shape my businessoutside of the traditional boundaries
of my private practice and being able toconnect with OTs and have such a ready
made curious and willing and open andcollaborative group of international
OTs to connect with has made such adifference in being able to develop
(07:26):
services and, and this whole coaching andmentorship I do with international OTs.
And so, I had no ideayou were behind that.
That is so exciting.
And I'm so grateful to you and thegroup of people who created that.
Oh, thank you.
And you know, I thought I would justgive a little bit of background on that
because OT4OT does stand for something.
(07:47):
It's the Online Technologyfor Occupational Therapy.
And that's what it stands for.
And it was founded by Merrolee, Sarah,Angela, Anita, Susan, and myself.
And we came together in different ways,and were all in different countries.
(08:10):
A few of them were in New Zealand,one was in New Zealand, Australia.
Canada, the UK, the US, and wecame together to form OT4OT.
And our goal was to help occupationaltherapy practitioners and
students to embrace technology.
And we're talking about 2009.
(08:32):
And so our first venture that wedid to the community, was to have
something that we called, 24VX.
Okay, ahead of our time becausewe're all used to Zoom and
being
on technology, but we created this 24hour virtual exchange, and we invited
(08:54):
people from all over the world.
And we all took turns so wemight start in Australia.
And then we would go around theworld and someone else would pick
up, and then another one of uswould pick up and it was remarkable.
So we are very excited about, we think,maybe, the beginnings of the virtual
(09:19):
world in communication of the evidenceand the science in occupational therapy.
So you gave me the opportunityto talk about this.
And it's a great memory.
Oh, I hadn't, I, Online technology for OT.
I thought it was OT4OT.
OT supporting OTs.
(09:40):
That's not it.
That's amazing.
It is.
It is in essence.
Yeah.
But it's online technology foroccupational therapy because in the,
you know, 2009 or so, we really weren'tembracing technology and some are early
adopters, but a lot of people sortof, sat back and said, I'm not sure
(10:01):
what I want to do.
And so we really wanted to be acatalyst to get the occupational therapy
profession globally on board withexchanging our knowledge and skills.
And we thought the best way to dothat was forming OT4OT and then
having our 24 hour virtual exchange.
And we did many of them.
(10:22):
We collected data on it.
We published on that as well.
So we're all still around.
And as you said, OT4OT has a suite ofdifferent groups on Facebook, and you're
active in one of them in particular.
Yes, I'm pretty, I'm quite active inOT4OT and MH4OT, Mental Health for OT.
(10:44):
I do a lot of talking there.
My private practice is in mental health,and I've had that since 2007, also
before a lot of the technology that weuse and, yeah, I definitely appreciate.
I notice too, because it'sinternational, actually there
are a lot of UK OTs in that one.
And I notice those themes, where dueto our different healthcare systems,
(11:05):
there's different representation of,or ability to engage fully in mental
health OT across different countries.
So it's always interesting to see howthese conversations come up, and then you
have to check which country are you in?
And I can see where that mightbe more of a limitation for you.
For instance, in the U.S., compared toCanada, Australia, or New Zealand, where
we have more socialized healthcare.
(11:26):
So it's very, very interesting to havethis international perspective, because
we can feel really, siloed or, if ourframe of reference is very small, we lose
sight of what is regulation by employeror, payer or, program and lose sight of
the fact that it's not OT that limits.
(11:48):
Sometimes it's it, but being connectedto other OTs who we do share a
fundamentally same frame of referenceabout occupation and helping people.
And it starts to help to tease outwhere people are getting stuck or where
some of those limitations might lie.
You're
totally right.
(12:09):
And I really think it enrichesour lives to learn from each other
and we become global citizens.
So I want to give a perfectexample of technology.
Anita is in Australia, the Sunshine Coast,and I sent her a WhatsApp earlier today.
She was sleeping, but now she's up.
And I said, do you have theexact numbers on OT4OT for me?
(12:35):
I just got her WhatsApp.
So thank you, Anita.
OT4OT has 33, 800 members.
We have 80 active groups thathave branched from our original
OT4OT, with a total of 200,706 members across all groups.
(13:00):
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
And, and it's being brave.
And let me say how that became brave.
I was at the CanadianAssociation of Occupational
Therapy Conference a while ago.
I think it must have been 2008.
(13:22):
And I've done some work with theassociation and they, through my journal
work, and they invited me there to getthe Award of Merit, which I'm so honored.
And so I went to different workshops.
And I was intrigued by this workshop.
And I don't remember thetitle, but Anita was giving it.
I was so inspired.
(13:43):
And I didn't know Anita beforehand.
I was brave in going up to her andsaying, I want to work with you.
And that started our friendship.
And working relationship thathas gone on for a long time.
Wow, I love that.
And that's a neat tie in.
(14:05):
You just never know, right?
You walk up and strike up aconversation where you feel a
kindred spirit professionally andgo, yeah, this needs to go somewhere.
And we don't get that when we'redoing online conferences, right?
There's really something prettyspecial and magical about it in person.
Alyson and I got to meettwice in person, actually.
(14:26):
And I kind of walked up to youa little bit bravely and said, I
think I'm the only Canadian here.
So can I, on behalf,
somehow I feel like I could representall of Canada in that moment, can I
just say how inspired I felt by whatyou speak, Alyson in such a way that is,
just rallies our inner brave OT that justwants to go and make a big difference.
(14:51):
Well, I appreciate that.
And, I appreciate that, that youwere brave and came up to me.
I would say even thinkingabout bravery, right?
When I was thinkingabout, when am I brave?
It is when I'm up and speaking, becausethere is a passion and a fire that I
believe lives in everyone across theglobe who pursues this profession,
(15:15):
who commits to learning how to do it,and then sharing it with consumers and
clients in so many different spaces.
And sometimes we don't always know, right?
If that passion and that firethat is sparked inside of us is
really representative of what ourcommunity is experiencing, what our
(15:38):
community wants to see move forward.
And so I always have a moment of pauseand try to build up a place of bravery
before I walk out or before I speak tosay, trust in the profession and trust in
how you experience the profession becausescary, it's scary to share your love and
your passion and not quite know if it'sthe same love and passion that your peers
(16:03):
and your colleagues, are experiencing too.
So I appreciate that, that you'vefound some inspiration, which is
great because it always seems totake a tremendous amount of courage
to, to walk up and say those words.
Oh, Alyson just made me think of abeautiful quote, and I want to share
that if that's okay, that NelsonMandela shared, and it's so wise, and
(16:29):
I quote, courage is not the absenceof fear, but the triumph over it.
And that's what, you know, that couragein being brave, I think is so critical.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I think it is something that isdefinitely required of OTs because
(16:49):
so much of the work we do, is, itappears subjective on the outside.
It appears that we're approachingjust with common sense.
Anybody else could do this.
And so often OTs lose sight of thefact that our value is our way of
seeing things, our framework, the waywe get curious, the way we observe,
(17:12):
the way we see things in context,we, the way we see people as whole
people inside of their context, socialenvironment, and all of the things and
I, a lot of the OTs that I support, arereally struggling with self doubt and
struggling to lean into that uncertainty.
And actually that was one of the, myfavorite at the CAOT conference that
(17:33):
Alyson and I were just at in Halifaxthis year and a few weeks ago, there
was a session on uncertainty thatwas really, really, really inspiring.
And it was uncertainty in the context ofeducation, but truly it goes beyond where
we're, where our lifelong learners werealways, we're always learning and, and the
sense of, I think OTs do a really good jobof getting really curious with our clients
(17:57):
in service of helping solve a problem.
And we get that, we cansee, okay, that worked out.
But I think I, I see a lot of selfdoubt coming in when standing up
and saying, well, I think we needto maybe look at this differently,
develop this differently, shift thisprogram, bring another perspective.
(18:17):
And when we get sort of out of our usand our client, I see a lot more courage
required because sometimes it's like, oh,well I don't know, does anybody agree?
I don't know.
It's hard to, it's hard to stand upand stand up for innovation and change.
And it's necessary.
I, I agree completely.
And sometimes, we're frightenedto make a mistake and fail, but
(18:40):
we've learned so much from that.
Yeah, I
remember many years ago when I wasthinking about some of the professions
that I had might want to do.
And I was young and my mother, she taughtspecial education, for individuals with
learning disabilities as well as withwhat was classified then in the U.S.
(19:02):
as emotional disturbance.
And she had seventh andeighth graders, right?
Challenging age as it is.
Yeah.
And I remember talking to her aboutthe various different things that
really interested me in healthcare.
And I have been interested inoccupational therapy for, since
I was about 10 or 11 years old.
And I said, but mom, like, how do you,I don't want to walk into a session, and
(19:24):
I don't want to spend this individual'stime, energy, and effort, and what if
it's, what if it's the wrong thing?
What if it's not what's going tobring about the change that individual
wants, or that individual needs?
What if I target the wrong thing?
And she said, Alyson never forget thatmedicine, health, and well being is
(19:45):
a practice, and if you don't fail,then you're actually not doing it.
And
so, when you walk in, and you havethe best session of your life, be
joyful and grateful that you hadknowledge that influenced how you
could build that just right session.
But when you fail, remember thatpractice requires failure because you
(20:11):
need to learn what you don't yet know.
And so pause and think about, whatis it that I am to learn in this
failure that will make me betterfor everybody moving forward?
And it's really those moments when you,about to walk into a client's room or
those moments when you're about to say,no, I'm ready to say that this is what
(20:32):
OT needs to be involved in and say itloudly to anyone willing to listen.
It's that pause of saying, hey, I mightnot say everything right, might not be
the best session, but I'm practicing withwhat I know, and if I fail, I'll learn,
and it'll make it even better next time.
And so I think that is, it kind ofaligns with what Karen was sharing
(20:55):
of Nelson Mandela's comment, right?
Like, it isn't not having fear, it'sbeing courageous amongst that fear.
And then being confident in what weknow, and what we see, and how we say
it, I think those are the pieces thatcan really help us to move forward.
And I think that, you know, avenueslike OT4OT is the perfect example
(21:22):
of how we can be in a community thatsays, you're not thinking this alone.
I so I have incredible excitementabout AI, and I believe so deeply
that occupational therapy mustembrace it for two reasons.
One, because it will, if utilized anddesigned in the best way, it will make
(21:49):
our jobs so much stronger, while notadding more energy, effort, exhaustion
than we're already pouring into it.
And then on the flip side of that, Ibelieve that the only way that AI is going
to be able to achieve being a meaningful,powerful investment in health and
(22:14):
wellness is if the occupational therapyprofession is present in the design,
the development, and the implementation.
And so, we owe it to ourselves sothat we can have the opportunity
to practice in a way that isstronger without overwhelming us.
(22:35):
And we owe it to the consumers ofoccupational therapy to be so heavily
involved in the design and rollout ofartificial intelligence and the ways that
it can impact healthcare interventions,that we owe it to them, because without
our lens, without those very things wewere just talking about, it could never
(22:55):
be designed to really see and captureall the things that we see and capture.
So really, Alyson, that was so eloquent.
I think if we're looking at how we canimpart occupational therapy practitioners
and students being brave right now,it's to open themselves up to all the
(23:18):
possibilities in artificial intelligence.
And I think if you step back,we're not talking about being,
looking at gen GPT or a Gemini,
or co pilot, we're really looking atartificial intelligence, again, that
can be brought into our interventionsthat we can help design, like Alyson
(23:41):
said, and to work collaboratively.
So, I want to challenge your listenersand all occupational therapy practitioners
and students around the globe toembrace how they can see and be brave
with embracing artificial intelligenceso that we can have a revolution
(24:05):
in occupational therapy, where we'rethe leaders in the use of artificial
intelligence to really make a differencein healthcare, which will have a positive
impact on all the people we serve.
Yes, yes.
I really feel this.
I feel that we have a responsibilityto be early adopters and shape it.
(24:29):
It's, it could be easy to sit back and letthe kinks work out and watch what happens,
But, we do bring such a unique way ofseeing the world and AI is learning.
And if we can be shaping the wayit's used and the way it's seeing
people, I think it's so much betteras so much a better resource.
Right.
We're used to working with,technologies or models that don't
(24:52):
quite fit exactly how we work.
And so being a part of this revolutionand making AI really good and fit
really well because of our uniqueway of seeing people in context.
It, I think we do have thisresponsibility and it's a little scary
because it's uncertain and it's newand, but OT is not new to innovation.
(25:13):
OT isn't new to technology.
We have always been innovating,and we have always been using
technology right back to our WorldWar II, early trailblazers, right?
Technology.
World War I.
World War I,
yes, yes.
And you know, it's interesting because Iwas reading a book and I'm looking around
at my mess of a desk with a million bookson it because I'm always reading, but
(25:38):
it's a book written by a physician veryrecently, about a year ago, discussing
like the transformation that AI willbring to healthcare delivery and that
really, it's an inevitable sort of routeor road or pathway that's going to emerge.
And the author made thisreally incredible statement.
(25:59):
And he said, the profession thatwill excel at leading this movement
is the profession that is bestequipped in collaboration and
working in a collaborative capacity.
And I think about that, and I thinkthis is where occupational therapy has
(26:24):
been the most incredible professionincluded in healthcare teams,
because we are natural collaborators.
Like, just that idea, right?
When we walk in and we talk to our client,we're not, it's not about even the idea
(26:44):
of let me hear about what you need to doand want to do and then give you some of
the resources or knowledge that I have.
It's literally walking next to our clientsand saying, let's try it together, right?
And then thinking about when we look intothe world of practice itself, particularly
as I look in the United States, right?
(27:05):
In home health, inoutpatient pediatrics, right?
We often see things like co treatments,but the consistent profession that's
always there is occupational therapy.
It might be OT and speech.
It might be OT and PT.
It might be OT and nursing.
(27:25):
It might be OT and an educatoror a paraprofessional.
But the consistent collaborator, theconsistent member of the team, is the
occupational therapy practitioner.
And so, if AI, to really have theability to affect outcomes and create
(27:46):
health and wellness is going to requirethe profession that knows how to
collaborate best, then it's almost like,yes, we must be brave, but we must be
brave in accepting our responsibility.
We have a responsibility to be the leadersin this, and it will be a little bit
scary, and sometimes a lot a bit scary.
(28:08):
But we will do it together andit's our responsibility because
of the lens we use, because of ourunique method of collaboration.
Alyson, I totally agree.
So one of the things that I thinkwe all need to be brave in anything
we do is to learn how to advocate,to learn how to communicate, to know
(28:31):
how to define occupational therapy.
And to be able to share and communicateso other people understand what
it is, and then they begin toadvocate for occupational therapy
being something that they receive.
I do think being brave is embracinginnovation and AI certainly is the
(28:55):
innovation that we need to embrace.
And we need to be the people outthere conducting research so that
we have evidence to support theefficacy of what we're doing with
AI, and any kind ofinnovation that we're using.
I love that you said about theinterprofessional collaboration.
(29:16):
That's so important.
And we need to be able toarticulate clearly our place
there, our distinct value.
Lifelong learning, you were talkingabout that at the beginning.
That's really important becausethere's that continuous knowledge.
We all need to be, I think, AI literate,that's basic, knowing the terminology
(29:39):
and all of that, and being part of that.
And it's part of also challengingthe status quo of what's going on.
We really need to be out there.
And saying, we know what's best.
And just like your mom said, maybewe'll learn some lessons from that,
(30:00):
but at least we'll be out there trying.
And I think that's so important.
I want to just add one morething about being brave.
We need to take care of ourselves.
We take care of so many people.
And I think one of the messages I'dlike to convey to your listeners
is to be brave and prioritize yourwell being too, because that will
(30:25):
allow you to better serve the peoplethat are so important in our lives.
Yes.
Yes.
And I really think there is a lotof potential for AI to help us to
reach more people and to do more.
But I also think we need to resistthe urge to go into hyper productivity
(30:50):
and just feel like we're workingharder to do many more things, right?
So embracing it as a tool to supportus in helping people, to support us
in reaching people, but resisting thaturge to now just like zoom up and ramp
up and feel more stressed than ever,because we're trying to juggle more
things because we can reach more people.
(31:11):
There's that sort of senseof technology should help us.
Right.
And not create more demands for us.
And so being able to take careof ourselves in that, I know that
it's, that was sort of just beforethe holidays, a couple of years ago
that I learned about ChatGPT andmy nervous system was vibrating.
Like there was excitement.
(31:32):
And ChatGPT isn't thebe all end all of AI.
There's so much more, right.
And we're going to talk moreabout, some ways you guys are
using AI here in a moment.
But I remember feeling this sense of, ohmy gosh, there, this is groundbreaking.
Like I need to get on board.
I also need to sit down and be calm and beintentional and be aware and curious and
(31:54):
open, but it felt, it felt overwhelmingcause the possibilities were endless.
And so it felt like this, almostthis pressure to like, I need
to get on board, I need tounderstand, I need to run with it.
And I've since kind of, yeah,keep slowing down and going, okay,
what can this tool do for me?
How can this tool help?
How can we embrace?
How can we improve what we'redoing without a pressure to
(32:18):
really be hyper productive?
Yeah, and I agree with you.
And that's why I brought up the self care.
Because if we look at and this is global,
many people are saying in ourprofession, I have compassion fatigue.
I'm burnt out.
Yeah.
I'm seeing so many clients.
(32:39):
And it's hard and here'swhere I think AI can help us.
And if it's okay with you, I'd love toshare the experience that we're having.
I've been very fortunate to be,conducting a research study in two places,
Alyson's Clinic, Capable Kids is one,and Gallant Therapy Services in Maine
(33:02):
is another, where we're looking at thefeasibility of using Korro AI, which is
a gaming experience app with children.
And this is to enrich occupationaltherapy, maybe give a little bit
of a break to the occupationaltherapy practitioner between
(33:23):
children that they're seeing.
And this gaming technology in ourstudy, we have the occupational therapy
practitioner using it for about 10 to 15minutes at the beginning of their therapy.
We have a control groupand experimental groups.
It's the experimental groupthat is using the Korro AI.
(33:45):
They're using it over a 15 week period.
Most of the children are seenonce a week for about an hour.
And then, what I think is going to bereally interesting to see the data,
we haven't analyzed anything yetbecause the study is still going, is
that, we have the children encouragedto use the Korro AI app at home.
(34:08):
So it's amplifying what we're doingin occupational therapy when we're
seeing the child just once a week.
And we're quite excited aboutwhat that home use will be like.
We have the control group where thechildren are having their regular
occupational therapy, and the workthey do at home would be what we would
(34:30):
traditionally send the child home to do.
And so I don't have any results thatare objective at this moment, but I can
share with you some qualitative thingsthat I'm hearing from the therapists.
They're sharing with me from parentsand what the kids are saying too.
And we have some objective datathat Alyson actually has observed
(34:52):
and she'll share that in a moment,maybe one of the cases that
you've observed yourself, Alyson.
But what we're hearing from thetherapists is that it is helping
them be more effective and efficient.
And effective in the way that theKorro app is actually giving objective
data from the algorithm that it has.
(35:13):
We could look at the child andestimate what they're doing.
And now, by using computer vision,where the app is actually seeing the
child, we're getting objective data.
That will be really helpful when wesubmit our documentation to show that
where the child is progressing or wherethe challenges are for the child as well.
(35:38):
So Alyson, I'm wondering, could youmaybe share what you've observed when
you've seen some of your occupationaltherapy practitioners using the app?
Yeah, yes, I would love to.
It's always exciting conversation forme and it brings about, to me, this
idea of two other places where weneed to be brave when embracing this.
(35:58):
and one is, sometimes we have to bebrave in letting some of those things go.
We don't have to be totallyin control of them, right?
And that's hard for us.
I know I personally struggle sometimeswith thinking that there is anyone or
anything that could possibly care andput as much energy and effort into
(36:19):
what you're doing with the child, as Iam doing right at that moment, right?
So letting go takes bravery sometimes.
Trusting that, and then at the sametime there's that bravery in trusting.
And so one of the most amazing thingsthat we have seen just very, almost
in a very concrete manner is we have achild that's been coming to the clinic
(36:41):
for a little over three years now.
He was in a car accident andhe has some, he has some pretty
substantial remaining deficits.
So there's a lot of tone, verylimited mobility on his left side,
particularly his left upper extremity.
But one of the things that's great abouthim is he's always been a motivated child.
(37:03):
So he's always been the childthat we know what we send him
home with, he's gonna do, right?
And he has a great motivated familyalso, they are regularly the reason
that my clinicians and myself go up acouple pounds every few weeks because
of all the sweets they send in for us,but they, they're committed, right?
(37:24):
He's committed, they're committed,he attends sessions regularly, and we
definitely have seen and continue tosee gains, but there were certain things
that we were starting to discuss anddesign because we really recognized
that after three plus years, that thismobility that we were hoping to really
generate in that left upper extremity,it likely wasn't going to happen.
(37:49):
And we have been, he has beenparticipating in Korro and for
the first time ever, we saw himspontaneously, intentionally lift his
left upper extremity up into a full,his shoulder was at full 90 degrees.
And, one of those things that, likeeverybody just starts screaming in the
(38:11):
room because you just, it, it shockedyou, and he was kind of like, what?
I'm just trying to getup the ladder, you know?
And there's two things that I think havebeen really great about this program
Korro that's really helped this, and oneis that it is occupation based, right?
Our children, this is what they do, theygame, they game on iPads and iPhones and
(38:34):
the computer and various technologies.
So he's engaging in an occupationthat his peers are engaging in also.
But when we sent him home with it,because of the incredible technology
and intellect that these sensors havewhen he is doing something where I, in
(38:58):
person, would say, oh gotta stand a littlebit taller, or, oh no, don't move your
shoulder while you're doing that, right?
Like, the very cues that I would give sothat he's definitely doing the movement
in a way that is correct and will producethe response we want, The AI Korro was
doing that for me when he's at home.
(39:18):
So even though he would go home and do allhis exercises, we never had a guarantee
that it was really being done in theway that was going to best encourage
the development of the skill, right?
He could obviously without even knowingit, be doing some modifications, and
no one at home is really going to beable to understand or observe that.
(39:41):
Korro app does.
And so not only is it engaging him,getting him excited, and making him
want to do movements that he couldn'tbefore, not because we're saying and
he can see like, oh yeah, this isall about getting my shoulder up, but
really because that's how I get the,that's how I move my astronaut, right?
(40:03):
But then on top of it, when we send himhome, we know that he's doing it in the
right way, with the right form, gettingfeedback so that we are reiterating
that motor plan in the right manner,instead of maybe building on some
of the modifications or adaptationsthat they're just naturally doing.
(40:26):
And then, we're seeing it, right?
So then we're getting this incrediblereport result that is literally evaluating
and measuring and sharing with usinformation that we can't see with our own
eyes, or that maybe just by human errorsometimes has some inconsistencies in it.
(40:49):
So I know that when we look at thingslike inhibition, there's this great
one that we report on often for himof movement dissociation, right?
So like, I don't know, sometimes I thinkthat he is dissociating his movement
and he recognizes that's his arm.
And then, I'll have another clinician nextto me that totally thinks oh no, I can see
(41:11):
how he's just kind of moving as a unit.
Well, now these sensors aremeasuring it the same way every time.
And they're telling me when he'sdissociating movement, when he's not.
And so it's really generating, thetherapists say we have better ideas
for more targeted, more effective,more efficient approaches to the
(41:33):
interventions that we're doing.
We have this incredible, consistentdata that I can be brave and take
vacation time because I know myfill in is going to be reporting on
the exact same data because they'recoming through the sensor collection.
And then on top of it, I know that whenthey go home and they're doing that follow
(41:54):
up, if they're doing it in a way that isincorrect or inaccurate that might build
a, maybe a more difficult motor plan, butthey're being corrected, and corrected
in a way that I would correct them.
And, it has just, I still, youknow, we all just jumped screaming
as he, brings that arm up.
We had not seen in three plus years,we had not seen more than maybe a 10
(42:17):
degree and very rarely was it spontaneouswhile he was engaged in an activity.
It was more like when he was reallytrying, when we were asking him to,
more of that like sort of exercise way.
Here, he's doing it, he's playingand he's up at 90 degrees and we're
shouting and I have to say, I thinkthe funniest part of that whole moment
(42:39):
was afterwards he said, you know what,I think you guys got something here.
You should let otherpeople try this thing out.
The children are really giving greatfeedback on what they want to see.
So the games are an astronautgoing to Mars, and there's lots of
different missions that they do.
(43:00):
Parents are reporting that theirchild who perhaps wasn't doing that
work at home is now asking for theirmobile device right away so that they
can continue on their daily mission.
So it's become a win win for theclinics, the occupational therapy
practitioners working with the child.
(43:23):
The child their self and the family.
So we're very excited and I am eagerlylooking forward to analyzing the
data so that we can have objectiveoutcomes that we can share with others.
That
is really, really neat.
I'm curious, how does Korroknow what to watch for?
(43:47):
Because I can imagine if you've got10 different clients in a day, you're
working on 10 different things.
So how does it know what thetargets are and what to watch for?
The Korro games were designedby occupational therapy
practitioners in pediatrics.
So they identified the skillsthat they were seeing, they were
(44:09):
doing in occupational therapy.
And they've worked with data scienceand computer science scientists to
help them create this algorithm.
And then the computer visioncomes in with sensors all over
the body that they're seeing.
So we're not wearing any sensors.
The computer vision is actuallyseeing this to give the feedback.
(44:35):
So there were occupational therapistsinvolved in essentially working
with these technical people tothen create something very useful.
How does one, like how does one
into that?
Yes.
And I love that because here'swhere we have to be brave.
(44:56):
And that's what I'm hoping,listeners will hear.
We were very lucky to begin towork with a company Korro, that
embraced occupational therapy.
And one of the reasons it did,because the person who owns the
company loves children and ismarried to an occupational therapist.
(45:17):
So here's where talking about occupationaltherapy, always explaining, Hi, I'm Karen
Jacobs, I'm an occupational therapist, andexplaining what it is over and over again.
I'm sure this owner of the company's wifeshared that with him over and over again.
(45:38):
But one of the things that Alyson sharedat the beginning is that we're everywhere.
We are the profession that sees theclients, In this case it's pediatrics,
but we're the profession that has theselonger term relationships with our
clients and the caregivers as well.
(46:00):
And so we're there to be able tosay, we need this or we need that.
So I want occupational therapypractitioners to be brave and to
contact companies that are beginning tocreate these innovations and say, hi,
I would like to be part of your team.
(46:23):
Maybe I'll be an advisor.
Maybe I'll be a consultant.
I have these skills.
I'm an occupational therapy practitionerand I have a distinct value.
I'm ready to work with you.
And that takes courage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have to knock on the, you know, maybewe knock on the door the first time and
(46:46):
guess what's going to happen after that?
They're going to be after us to help them.
I, that's, there's many places you canhear Erik Johnson and Kaitlyn Jones's
story about designing and developingadaptive gaming for Microsoft, right?
They, they literally Erikand some engineers were just
(47:06):
kind of doing it for fun.
And they, there was like this call fromMicrosoft, like a hey, try it we just want
to see what people are doing out there.
And they brought it.
And now Microsoft is employing multipleoccupational therapy professionals
in not just adaptive gaming, but likein all the spaces of how they are
(47:29):
developing and designing products, right?
And it took this idea of saying,that bravery, why not me?
Why not
me?
I'm doing it, and and as Erik alwayssays, his clients were loving it,
and Microsoft had like, hey, here'sa challenge to everybody, and so
he was like, why wouldn't I submit?
And it's catapulted, and I'vealways said, it doesn't take long
(47:54):
for anyone who is truly engagingwith a member of the occupational
therapy community to value it.
Our value is easily recognized.
It's getting in front, havingthe bravery to say, you actually
have to see it and hear it.
We have to be engaged in thisreciprocal kind of experience because
(48:17):
within minutes people fall in love.
They say, this is what we need.
But if we don't, if we don't makethe call, if we don't send the
email, if we don't submit for thejob then they're not going to know.
to call on us.
And so we have to be brave andsay, I'm going to submit it.
And I always say sometimes thatmeans bravery and like submitting
(48:39):
for that job that has nothingrelated to occupational therapy in
the title and being okay with that.
But just making sure that you'realways describing yourself as an
Occupational Therapy Professional.
So go ahead, take thatjob of like design expert.
And say, the reason I'm good at beinga design expert is because I have
(49:02):
the training of occupational therapy.
Yes, I think that this is,it's so exciting too, because
I've heard you guys say this.
I heard you first talk on the OTPotential Podcast, and we made sure
not to make this a direct copy of that.
So if a person wants to go listento more of you guys speaking, go
listen to the OT Potential Podcast.
(49:23):
But also I'm hearingthis from other people.
So at the CAOT conference a coupleweeks ago, part of the closing ceremony
is Rosalie Wang was talking about justthis, that she is finding that in these
AI spaces, they are loving the OT voice.
They're loving what wehave to bring to the table.
They're really appreciating ourcontribution and I love hearing
(49:45):
this from different sources.
It's not just you guys excitedabout this one project.
This is, I'm hearing it in other places.
And it's really indifferent countries, right?
It's really exciting.
It's exciting.
And we'll probably see an OT4OT with AI.
And maybe we'll be theones that get it going.
One of the things that I've beendoing is, I'm very active on LinkedIn.
(50:11):
And I've put in my skill set ArtificialIntelligence, and that has been a magnet
of people who are interested in AI,people in AI, and people who are looking
for people to work with them in AI.
So people are reaching out to me now.
(50:31):
I'm signing up to join other groupsthat are AI groups and newsletters.
So I guess what I'd like to encourage,if this is something that you want to
get involved in and you're nervous,you're not quite brave yet, That
might be a really easy step to take.
Not necessarily putting down that youhave the skills in AI, unless that
(50:53):
is true, but seeking out on LinkedInand some of the other social media
sites, people who are doing AI andbringing together this community
of practice in AI, in occupationaltherapy, but also interprofessionally.
I think we can be part of this revolutionand be out there and creating the products
(51:17):
that will really make a differencein the lives of people that we serve.
Well, that is a great
call to action.
I like it a lot.
Yeah, Karen and I wererecently talking about this, I
think, with just one another.
And, you know, we were reallysaying that AI in healthcare
(51:37):
has the ability to be what thecalculator became, to the accountant.
This idea that we, that the bankerno longer, they're not doing
most of the math on their own.
My, my husband was a bankerprior to us opening the clinic.
That's when he was brave.
He was brave when he quithis job to jump on my dreams.
(51:59):
But, he would say to me often, youactually do math like in your head
and on paper much better than I do,because I'm always using the calculator.
And it frees your brain so that youcan pay attention to some of those
other more complex things, right?
AI, it's going to be the calculatorto Healthcare Delivery, And so it is
(52:20):
going to be a revolutionary change.
It's going to transform, the way peoplecan interact, engage, seek, and find
healthcare, and the delivery of it.
I think when there are revolutionsto be excited about that can bring
about such optimal opportunities theexperience to enhance and expand equity,
(52:48):
then why not be the early adopter?
Why not come in?
And why not put our namesright along with it?
That it is not just an AI revolution,it's the OT and AI revolution.
Yeah, and Alyson I'm going todo a little bit of a reveal.
Alyson and I are going to start a blog.
(53:11):
And we'll have it on Capable Kids, andwe're going to just explore all the
potential in AI from our lens, but wewant to share, we want to, also call to
action again others to share with us.
And I know you'll let us give ourcontact information at the end but we
(53:31):
really would like to bring everyone in.
We want a community of practice.
We want all of you to be part of this.
And just like you started out, maybeyou can feel overwhelmed right now.
Just put a little toein and see how it feels.
Be brave.
(53:53):
We're going to take opportunities toalso share where some of the difficulties
that were encountered by individuals.
It's a practice where wecan learn from one another.
And so we'll certainly talk about whatwere some of those learning curve pieces.
I joke regularly no one in mypersonal circle would tell you
(54:15):
that I'm like a tech savvy person.
That was like never my, itwasn't really my interest.
I just, it wasn't really, I was neverthe one that could set up your TV or
set up my own computer, but there'ssomething beautiful about AI that takes
it outside of tech and that AI is this,it's like my own version of occupational
(54:42):
therapy walking alongside of me.
It's not just technology.
It's an opportunity to do everything Ialready engage in better and stronger.
And so it, you can be that personthinking, well, I don't know.
I've never really been into tech or that.
Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
(55:03):
AI is an opportunity for us to embracenew ways of doing things that make us
stronger as the person we already are.
Yeah.
And Alyson I love that.
It's in some ways our thought partner.
Yeah.
And I also want to do a shout outthat Alyson is quite a few years
(55:26):
younger than me, and we're twodifferent really generations of being
occupational therapy practitioners.
And I think that, it's not just forpeople who are coming out and entry
level, or five years into the profession.
It's for all of us.
Any generation, any age of an occupationaltherapy practitioner, we can all
(55:52):
learn and have AI as, as our thoughtpartner to enrich what we're doing.
And it's here.
So whether we resist it, it's goingto take a lot of energy to resist it.
It's already integrated intoso many parts of our lives.
And so why not, yeah, why notuse it as a therapy partner?
Why not use it as an assistant, whynot use it as that objective extra
(56:17):
pair of eyes or ability to extendour reach to, to help clients more
frequently and in different environments.
And yeah, I think that is really, yeah,really, really beautiful call to action.
May I ask you questions thatI ask everybody at the end
of the OT pod, the Brave OT?
(56:40):
What does being brave mean to you?
I've put a lot of thought to beingbrave because I have to say when I
started my career as an occupationaltherapy practitioner, I wasn't brave.
I didn't have the courage, that Isee evolved in myself over the years.
(57:01):
And I've been an occupationaltherapy practitioner for 45 years.
So for me, it helped in becomingcompetent in what I was doing
and becoming more confident.
I do think being brave encompassesmore than just like a physical courage.
(57:23):
I think it involves speaking out,having a voice against injustices
that we're seeing, taking calculatedrisks now, acting despite being
fearful, and that's what I'm doing now.
And for me, it was an evolution.
(57:45):
It took a while to become.
But I think being curious has helpeda lot, and also finding my voice and
feeling like I have something to say,but also looking at what's happening
in the world and making sure that I'mnot a passenger, but I'm a driver.
(58:10):
And that's really important to me.
Beautiful.
That was beautiful.
Wow, Karen.
But you haven't seen me drive yet, Alyson.
Yes, I rode in the car with you.
You haven't seen me putmy, my pedal to the metal.
Yeah.
(58:31):
So I'm a fast driver.
Some of those decisionscame from that too.
So I, when I think about whatdoes being brave mean to me,
being brave means I'm scared.
Every time that I'm brave, I amscared, and so it's about being scared.
it is about those risks, andfailure and, and finding your
(58:57):
voice in each one of those.
Finding your voice in your fear,finding your voice in the risks, finding
your voice in the failures, because Ithink for a long time, we have really
approached things from speaking fromour strengths and our successes and
(59:20):
that's not necessarily the way thatwe can continue to evolve into an
effective anything, profession, society.
I think being brave is trusting yourselfand, and not looking for anyone else to
validate what you believe, or what youthink, or how you want to move forward.
(59:45):
And I think being brave is engagingin the discourse and the dialogue.
And saying, I'm brave in not justtrusting myself, but trusting that
what others believe is what isright for their path right now.
And that we can exist in a world wherebravery comes from accepting what is mine
(01:00:14):
and where I am and accepting that can bepolar opposite of what is you and where
you are and that bravely we can stilljust walk the journey of life together.
Brave to me, I guess, is just the ideaof always having that awareness that
(01:00:37):
life is scary, but scary is not bad.
Scary is growth and scary is brave.
And you have given us a brave spaceand we thank you for your podcast that
(01:00:57):
is allowing us and others, to be braveand to listen and to have more courage.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I think that it is, we do perceivefear to be bad, and our nervous
systems are designed to respond tofear and get us to stop moving toward
(01:01:20):
the thing that makes us fearful.
And in that way it's obviouslyperceived as negative, but ultimately,
without fear, you aren't being brave.
If you have no fear, you'rejust doing something, right?
And so that sense of their needing tobe that sense of, okay, this is scary.
This is taking a risk, but atthe same time, I'm a scientist.
And I am collecting data.
(01:01:43):
And I am approaching this asan objective, curious, party.
And this is how we observeour clients, right?
If we only see them succeeding atthings, not struggling with things, we
don't know what to help with, right?
We need to see where they'refaltering or where they're struggling.
And we get that, right, we get that.
And I've seen my consent form.
(01:02:04):
I say to people, I workin adult mental health.
And so I often say too that, the realmagic of what happens here is actually
what you do in between our sessions.
Like, we're going to work in oursessions to, to build skills and problem
solve and come up with strategies andideas, but you have to go use them.
And, so and I want to hear how it went.
And if it doesn't go well, Iespecially want to hear about it
(01:02:25):
because I learned so much more aboutwhat didn't go well than what did.
So please don't tell me, yeah,I did it it was fine even if it
wasn't, I want to hear about it.
Like let's, that's where the nittygritty juicy problem solving, let's
get in there and see, okay, wellwhat made that harder than this?
And what, okay, now I seethe influence of that.
How do we manage that?
(01:02:46):
And none of that is failure.
All of that is data.
That's where we thrive.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, you know, what you're describingis the lessons that we learn.
And I think if we embrace thatconstruct more, we might be happier.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
(01:03:07):
I totally agree with you.
Okay.
The next question is, what issomething brave you've done recently?
I was thinking a couple of things.
One was how I've embracedartificial intelligence.
And then I was thinking about personally,
I decided that I want a legacyfor my family, where my children
(01:03:32):
and grandchildren can experienceliving in a country outside the US.
I did that when I was a child.
My parents had us living in Italyand as an adult I lived in Iceland on
a Fulbright, which changed my life.
So I bought a little teenypiece of land in the Azores.
And I'm building a house there.
(01:03:52):
Eventually I'll probably make it intoan Airbnb or something like that.
But that was really brave.
And, it was intentional and veryscary and it isn't built yet.
So I'm still in thatfear mode of being brave.
So I'd like to encourage peopleto think about being brave in
(01:04:13):
all aspects of their lives.
I have largely been one of thoseindividuals that doesn't like to share
excitement about work that I'm doingor things that we're bringing into the
clinic until I have like incrediblevalidation that it worked, right?
And so the idea of even sharingthe research that Karen has been
(01:04:39):
conducting in Capable Kids and some ofthe things that we're seeing, I just
that was brave for me.
I, I, it's scary to say whatyou're excited about or what you're
trialing, early on in that phase.
And I was excited, and my cliniciansat work at Capable Kids are amazing,
(01:04:59):
and they were excited, and theywanted it right away, but I feel
an ownership to, engaging, I don'twant people to perceive that, there
was some error on their part, right?
So I never want to talk about anythinguntil I know that it's going to
represent the work that they do so well.
And It's been a brave space to talkabout AI, even thinking about just my
(01:05:23):
appreciation of AI being in settings.
There's a lot of chaosand noise around AI.
There's a lot of controversy anddiscourse and, it's been real bravery
to say, I am excited for this.
And so I think that's one placethat I've been, that I've been
really expressing bravery.
(01:05:44):
And I would say another place that I'vebeen expressing bravery is personally,
I had been thinking about this, isaccountability without invalidating me.
So I've been really entering somespaces of dialogue and discourse.
And sometimes it's in meetings with,members of the OT community where
(01:06:06):
we're trying to make decisions, andsometimes it's in my family room with
my children, but, I have often foundthat I can say I'm sorry and I can
take the accountability, but then Ipersonally begin to invalidate myself.
I made that error and so I withdraw and Idon't continue to give my contributions.
(01:06:31):
And, and lately I've been,trying to take on that space
of bravery to say, I'm sorry.
When I have done things that wereerrors, mistakes, or harms, but that's
still okay for me to continue to bean equal member of this conversation.
And so that's, I think, personally where Ihave been trying to journey in my bravery,
(01:06:53):
and, I think that it's reflective,like Karen said, it's reflective
across, personal and professional.
I think bravery to me right now meanstaking care of myself, meaning it's okay
to not read email for a day or not answera phone call, and just, that's what
bravery looks like, and then being ableto not have to say I'm sorry for that,
(01:07:16):
to say I was taking care of me, and I'mhopeful that we could connect again soon.
Alyson, you said something that's reallyimportant, and it's something I went to a
workshop today about, work life balance.
It's setting boundaries and beingbrave in setting boundaries.
And that's something I alwaysfeel I'm a work in progress.
(01:07:39):
So we can help each other.
Yes.
So what I'm hearing in what you'retalking about is, when both of what you
are talking about is that sense of reallyleaning into knowing what's important to
you and pursuing that, really also thesense of, I'm hearing themes of emotional
intelligence in this as well, right?
(01:08:00):
And that sense of being able to releaseego and really stand in uncertainty
and willingness and openness and Ithink a great leader or, somebody
who's really grounded in themselvesand who they are can say, I don't know.
And that's okay, right?
They can say, oh, I messed up.
(01:08:22):
And I'd like to continue and figurethis out and learn from this experience.
And that doesn't make us weak or fallible.
That makes us actually more respectedand stronger, if we can say that.
I much more respect somebody whocan acknowledge their errors rather
than profess to know everythingand not acknowledge any difficulty.
And it's interesting onthe boundary side, too.
(01:08:43):
So in my ACTivate Vitality program, Icreated this program because I really
love helping super smart, super sensitivepeople who get stuck, and often get stuck
in overthinking and fear of failure andperfectionism and that sort of thing.
And so I drew in a crowd and, what'sreally interesting is the stuff we end
up working on is a lot around boundaries,a lot around releasing some of those
(01:09:08):
people pleasing things, standing inour values and our integrity, and
making intentional moves rather thanreactive moves that are fear driven.
And so I'm using a lot of acceptanceand commitment therapy actually
to empower these OTs to stand talland strong in what's important.
And that's really uncomfortable and reallylean into the curiosity and vulnerability
(01:09:31):
and, and work and live intentionally.
And so I've heard all of those themescome out in what both of you just said,
Thank you.
I made a big decision about my life20 years ago to be intentional.
And that has been, you wanted somethingmore recent about being brave.
(01:09:52):
So 20 years was far away.
But I think the intentionalityis extremely important.
And it takes time to reflect to havethat intentionality and journaling
helps a lot, being observant aboutthe world and stepping back and
saying, what did that mean to me?
(01:10:13):
And I do think another thing that's reallyimportant is social participation, having
friends, having colleagues, being partof the world, engaging in the world.
whatever that might be is critical.
Yeah, that's a good life.
So I
think it helps being brave, too.
Yeah.
(01:10:34):
What is something you would liketo see OTs be a little bit more
brave about in the coming years?
I want them to be advocates.
I, obviously I want them tobe brave in, looking at what's
really important for themselvesand the clients that they serve.
I'd like them to open themselves up to theopportunities in artificial intelligence
(01:10:57):
and see how they can be a driver, not apassenger, in this and be part of this
I think revolution that we're seeing,that can really make a difference.
And some of the things I shared before,being lifelong learners and making sure
there's work life balance, which takestime and bravery to do, and challenging
(01:11:18):
the status quo is really important.
I'd like people to be educated consumers.
There's a lot going on in theworld now, and there's so much
information that's accurate anda lot that may not be accurate.
And I think really making a concertedeffort to look at where their values
(01:11:41):
are in making some decisions and whatthey're seeing happening in the world.
And I think that in doing all of thosethings, I, so I want us to be brave
in, as you said, not always havingto be liked, not always having to
(01:12:02):
be the people pleasers, but as Karensaid, be an advocate, and sometimes
an advocate sits you in a space ofdiscomfort or uncomfort for a little
bit, but, be brave in that advocacy.
I want us to be brave in our attempts ofdoing the advocacy and doing the work.
And, yeah, I would echo Karen again.
(01:12:23):
I want us to be brave intaking care of ourselves.
We're really good attaking care of others.
I want us to be brave in takingcare of ourselves and taking care
of each other as a community.
No one will ever know, the cognitiveload or what we carry with us day to day,
(01:12:45):
like our colleagues who are doing it too.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
How can people reach you if theywould like to learn a little
bit more or have a conversation?
Sure.
Easy to reach me, on email.
Okay.
kjacobs@bu.edu and I'm onjust about all social media.
(01:13:14):
Still a little reluctant to go on TikTok
And likewise, I'm usuallyquite accessible via email.
And that would be, adstover@pitt.edu andI would say, also, I'm usually available
(01:13:37):
on most of the social media platforms.
I would say that LinkedIn is probably theone I spend the most time on, so please
reach out, connect, send a message.
I love to just sometimes start there andcatapult the conversation to other places.
Wonderful.
And when you have a link for the blogthat you're starting, will you share it
(01:13:58):
and I can add it to this podcast episode?
Yeah, so we are www.capablekidsrehab.com.
And when you go on there, there'llbe a tab for blog and, click on that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Really appreciate it.
Well OTs, that wraps up another insightfulepisode of The BRAVE OT Podcast.
(01:14:23):
A heartfelt, thank youto our incredible guests.
Alyson Stover and Karen Jacobs.
For sharing their wisdom, experiencesand tales of courage with us.
Today's conversation highlightedthe power and potential that
lies within our profession.
Whether it's advocating for ourselvesand our clients embracing new
technologies like AI, or simplytaking those brave steps to do what
(01:14:45):
matters most in our personal lives.
Remember, you can follow Alyson and Karenthrough their upcoming blog on the Capable
Kids website, where they'll continueempowering the OT community with valuable
insights and support as they ventureinto this application and research in AI.
Now at the time, this episode airsin early June of 2024, I am accepting
(01:15:07):
OT practitioners into the ACTivateVitality program for only a couple
more weeks before pausing enrollment.
I'm not sure how long the pausewill be to be really honest.
In reflecting on my life, I noticed aneed to heed my own advice and create
space to focus on what matters most.
I'm creating space by pausing my salesand marketing efforts for awhile so that
(01:15:29):
I can fully focus on the clients insidethe program, my health and wellbeing,
and my mental health OT practice.
I absolutely love being with thisgorgeous group of humans in the
ACTivate Vitality program whoelevate each other on every call.
It has members like Jessica Miller,who shared this beautiful review.
She says, "The ACTivate Vitality programchanged my life, Carlyn and the community
(01:15:52):
and act helped me to listen to my bodyand take so many courageous steps.
I quit my traditional job incorporate healthcare and created a
unique OT business model that fitsmy life, my interests and my skills.
My career now adds to my vitalityand the community continues to
support each other in unwinding ourself-worth from our productivity.
(01:16:13):
I'm honored now to offer a monthlyembodied practice nourishing your nervous
system to the ACTivate Vitality community.
This is just one more way Carlyn hasdeeply listened and has helped encourage
me to step into my authentic self.
I highly recommend the program to anyOT entrepreneur looking for support in
creating or adjusting their businessto match their internal values and
(01:16:34):
find a path that is honoring andsustainable to your true self."
Thank you, Jessica.
. If you'd like to join us, pleaseset up a clarity call with the
link in the show notes before thegreat pause on June 15th, 2024.
Now, If you're enjoying The BRAVE OTpodcast, please consider leaving us a
review and sharing the podcast episodewith your friends and colleagues.
(01:16:57):
Together, we can continue to builda brave informed and connected
occupational therapy community.
Until next time be brave OTs.
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