Ep. 29: Defining Entrepreneurial Success on Your Own Terms with Guest, Ashley Ballou

My guest, Ashley Ballou, is someone that I really admire for her deep commitment to enhancing the wellbeing of clients, caregivers, and therapists. 

In this conversation, we take a deep dive into the holistic approach of occupational therapy discussing the vital role it plays, not only in daily activities, but also in mental health and spiritual wellbeing. 

We explore the importance of servant leadership, the intersection of personal values and professional practice and the different challenges OTs face in Canada and the US, particularly in the area of mental health. 

Ashley opens up about her personal journey, sharing compelling experiences from caring for her grandmother to juggling professional life, while being the mother of five.

We also touch upon the essential need for occupational therapists to embody bravery, authenticity, and encourage them to trust their clinical intuition, and to align their actions with their true purposes. This conversation is packed with heartfelt insights, practical advice, and unwavering encouragement to pursue your calling with courage.

You can find Ashley on Instagram @caregiver_thrive

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I know a lot of people are wantingto get into the mental health

(00:03):
space, but they don't know whereto put like their footing in.
And you talk a lot about values.
Where do you see places and spacesfor occupational therapists to either
embedded into their practice or to createtheir own version of the Brave OT you.

(00:25):
I think there's we can't talk aboutOT and mental health without also
addressing that there are somedifferences based on like how we're
funded here in Canada versus in the USor UK or Australia, for instance, right.
We're always doing mental health whetherwe're working with a kid on, sensory

(00:47):
processing or some emotional regulation,this is their mental health, right?
If you're working with a person who'sgoing home after a hip replacement,
there are mental health aspectsthere that you're addressing, right?
You're never just lookingfrom a phys med perspective.
You're never just looking from theproblem of what the referral said, right?
You're always lookingat the whole person and.

(01:09):
Yeah.
And almost always, if we're thinkingabout people in the hospital or
people who, are working through somechallenges, their disabilities, at the
point we get them, they're often inone of the hardest spots in their life.
And with that often comes grief and stressand anxiety and fear and so many things
that, that OTs are addressing it, likethat, that nurses are addressing it,

(01:31):
that other health care professionals are.
You can't help but address it
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,

(01:52):
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
My guest today is Ashley Ballou.

(02:12):
Somebody that I really admire for herdeep commitment to enhancing the wellbeing
of clients, caregivers, and therapists.
In this conversation, we take a deepdive into the holistic approach of
occupational therapy discussing thevital role it plays, not only in
daily activities, but also in mentalhealth and spiritual wellbeing.
We explore the importance of servantleadership, the intersection of personal

(02:35):
values and professional practice
and the different challenges OTs facein Canada and the U S particularly
in the area of mental health.
Ashley opens up about her personaljourney, sharing compelling experiences
from caring for her grandmotherto juggling professional life.
While being the mother of five,we also touch upon the essential

(02:55):
need for occupational therapiststo embody bravery authenticity.
And encourage them to trust theirclinical intuitions and align.
Their actions with their true purposes.
This conversation is packed withheartfelt insights, practical advice,
and unwavering encouragement topursue your calling with courage.

(03:17):
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(04:18):
Hey, Ashley, I am really, really excitedthat we are having this conversation.
We've been talking aboutit for a while, haven't we?
I know it's been a long time coming.
I'm so elated to be invited.
Thank you so much for having me.
My pleasure.
May I ask you to tell the listenersa little bit about yourself?

(04:38):
Yeah, sure.
So my name is Ashley Ballou.
I'm an occupational therapist ofa little bit over 10 plus years.
I own a mobile private practice calledMy Potential Therapy and Wellness.
And it is mostly, in Houston, Texas,but we do see individuals virtually.

(05:01):
I also have some, I call themauxiliary things that I do.
I have many.
Spin offs, exciting, exciting sidequests.
Exactly.
I'm a woman of many sidequests.
So I am a lead servant for a groupcalled Black Allied Health Therapist.

(05:23):
I also have a group that I cater to theTLC or the Therapy, Leisure and Needs
of the OT Therapist called TLC for OTs.
I also have a therapist bible studygroup where we meet to just discuss.

(05:46):
The world in which we live in andhow we can support each other to
be better spiritually fed for thequest of being a therapy servant.
And I also have a group to caterthat is like a spinoff to my
business called Caregiver Thrive.

(06:07):
So Caregiver Thrive focuses on thequality of life needs of just the
caregiver and just really want topour into that caregiver making sure
that their wellness needs as well astheir personal leisure needs are met.
Oh, I love that.
I love that you're multi passionateand that you are giving yourself

(06:31):
room to do all these things.
But I really love the way thatyou being an OT shines through
in the way you're seeing this.
So I think OTs, we're reallygood at stepping back and
seeing the whole picture.
And we're never just like, well, thisis the client or patient and this
is me and that's all that matters.
Like we look at the context, welook at the people in their lives.

(06:54):
We look at the therapist and whatthey're coming with and their
beliefs and resources and how they'reempowered and the environment.
Like you have chosen servicesthat hit on so many of those areas
because they're all important.
Yeah, they're all important.
Just for various reasons.
A lot of times we start, youknow, dibbling and dabbling and
things, starting our career routesin things that we've experienced

(07:17):
personally, kind of working backwards.
I've been a caregiverfor my late grandmother.
This is actually her birthday,her heavenly birthday today.
And, I know I love my granny.
She's amazing, but I was her, longdistance caregiver for eight plus years.
And I just remember like my motherand I, we were, this is like, that's

(07:42):
how big our family, like that's bigand how we really needed support.
And it took us a longtime to find balance.
And to find not only occupationalbalance, but just balance in
understanding the healthcare system.
And so it just, it spoke tomy heartstrings to be able to

(08:07):
care, you know, pay it forward.
So I really am thankful for theopportunity to serve caregivers.
But then I'm also thinking about like thetherapist, a lot of us as therapists, a
lot of us OTs are not taking full careof ourselves because we're constantly

(08:28):
serving and giving and pouring out.
And I feel that one of my, I call itsuperpowers, is to pour in to others
and not neglect myself, but to pourinto others while I'm pouring into
myself and really help therapists getfrom a place of distress to a place

(08:55):
of thriving and higher potential.
So I love that.
And then with my practice.
I've been a dual therapist, kindof like generalist, I would say.
I've seen school aged kids and I'veseen geriatrics for my entire career.
And I absolutely love doingboth at the same time.

(09:20):
I don't know why mymind is wired that way.
I'm just thinking it'sa gift of some sort.
But
You love people and you love peoplewho are more vulnerable, right?
Yeah.
The most vulnerable populations, right?
To take care of children andto take care of our elderly.
I find it as a blessing to serve them andsee that their needs are met and even why

(09:46):
I even chose occupational therapy, youknow, it's a servant like place to be.
And interestingly, I servethe people in the middle.
I don't work in pediatrics or geriatrics.
I'm an adult, I don't, I'mreally comfortable there.
Yeah.
I love that you serve the middlebecause the middle needs love too.

(10:09):
I just, and, but you can speak tothat because you've experienced
probably middle like thing.
Yeah.
And you have older children and thoseneeds change as your life needs change.
So it's a blessing to havesomeone in that space as well.

(10:30):
And I think for me, it's the, that,my focus has been on mental health
and certainly children and seniorshave mental health challenges as well.
And there's something aboutthat middle, I mean, the middle
people are often caring for both.
Right.
So there's that often that sandwichgeneration and mental health challenges
also really impacting their productivity.

(10:51):
And the, then there's sort of been acycle from there that if the person
who earns the money and takes careof all the people and does all the
things is not well and can't work.
Then the others aren'twell taken care of either.
I really, yeah, I'm good in that middle.
And I think it probably even goes back toa lot of my family upbringing and things
like that too, where the needs were.

(11:12):
But I always thought Iwould actually work in peds.
That was actually my intentionwhen I went to OT school.
And
Yeah, and it's okay.
Like, I typically, I don'twork with like all kids.
I work with school aged kids.
I have a something about being ableto advocate for a child in school and

(11:34):
making sure that their needs are met.
You know, all the educationalsystems are different.
I rarely, work within just the home,and if I do work in the home, I ask
the family like, "hey, how can Isupport them at the school level, too?"
Because that's their form of work, right?
And sometimes, like you were saying,the responsibilities of that middle

(11:57):
they're pulled in different areas.
Well, a student or a child is pulledin so many different areas in school
and it can impact their, the waythat they see their home life or they
react or respond to their familiesor respond or react in the community.
And so it's just very vital for meto see that area is taken care of.

(12:20):
And maybe it's a glitch becauseI have five kids, right?
So I'm, I would want someoneto do that for my children.
So if they see like a red flag and somaybe I'm just a sucker for, you know,
making sure people are taken care of well.
And I think I mentioned to you before westarted, this is my grandmother's birthday

(12:43):
and, she was like my best friend, whenshe was alive, and I know even before I
started becoming like her caregiver I knewthat I would always go make sure like her
needs were met and made sure that, shehad everything she could possibly have
to make her quality of life better and, Ialways told myself, if I was thinking in

(13:06):
healthcare she would be the inspiration.
I would want to meet a wholebunch of people and treat them
like they were my grandparents.
That's probably another thingthat pulls at our heartstrings.
It's just wanting to see those needs met.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's really good.
You use the term servant, can youdefine um, how you see that term

(13:29):
servant and how that, that fits for you?
Well, I'm looking at it almost likein the context of servant leadership,
Occupational therapists are managers.
We are all managers of whetheryou can say it in the technical
sense, caseload or workload, butwe are all managers of people.
You know, it's our job to take careof them, but it's also our job to

(13:53):
also use that therapeutic use of self.
And it's when I think oftherapeutic use of self, I think
of humbling being a humble servant.
So I am bringing myself downfrom my credentials and bringing
myself down from my degrees.

(14:14):
And I'm bringing myself down to wherethey are and even lower and seeing
how can I be a blessing and serve you.
Serve you as the person that, is inthis, you know, condition or crisis.
When I think about my therapy groupfor Black Allied Health Therapists,

(14:39):
there are a variety of needs amongstthe therapists, they're not only OTs,
they're their PTs and speech therapists,and they have dynamic needs related
to their job, their roles, and even,just like on the national level, just
thinking about what our environmentlooks like on the outside world.

(15:02):
And a lot of pressures, and I feelthat anyone that's in leadership or
moderating or me myself as the leader,it's not my job to say, hey, I know it
all, I founded this group, et cetera.
It's my job to say, how can I bestserve you to create solutions, to

(15:24):
connect you with people, to help walkalongside you to manage whatever problem
or issue or concern you are having.
How can I, as a former student, becausewe also have students on our platform,
how can I, as a former student, serve you,make sure that your needs are met, that

(15:49):
you're not just walking this life alone.
I think that's a big theme of mylife is that no one walks alone.
And this is adopted froma church I used to attend.
I no longer attend only becauseof geographical differences, but
I remember that pastor would, youknow, it wasn't like a huge church,

(16:15):
but it was like huge enough to belike meet some parking attendants.
So I remember he would park people,he would meet you out in the sun.
I remember when he would have days wherewe would have to go do landscaping at the
church, and he would be also landscaping.

(16:35):
He would be the parking attendant,and he would still have to teach the
sermon, but he was an example of what
the servant leadershiplooks like and looked like.
And I was so impressed because atthat time I had yet not seen anyone do
such and was consistent with it, veryconsistent with, no matter how big the

(16:57):
church grew And I was just so impressed,like it was just a level of humbleness.
And I just feel that sometimes when weget our letters and our credentials and
our certifications, I never, ever want toget so, informed or so, so credentialed,

(17:21):
if you will, that I never forget whereI came from and what I've seen in the
younger years of my time as a clinician.
So really saying, yeah,you're not better than anyone.
You're there in there with the peoplewho need your support, who you're
working with collaborating equals.

(17:41):
Your collaborators.
You're bringing a unique skill set toit but if you are positioning yourself
above anybody, you can't fully meet them.
Exactly.
And it may make it hard for apatient or a client to relate to you.
It's only sometimes when you share yourstory or you show a level of humbleness
that people tend to really open up.

(18:03):
I feel like with this podcast, theBrave OT, I've listened to a few
episodes and I feel like when Ihear your guests open up it makes
me to be like, oh, they're my equal.
Like you just said, they'renot too high to be reached
out to via email or something.

(18:25):
Totally.
Yeah.
I think we do share that value.
I haven't used the term servant,but I do talk about those I serve.
And so I, yeah, I like towork that language in, cause I
think that's really important.
And I also think like a lot ofmy friends are psychologists.
And they have a lot more regulationaround boundaries than we do.

(18:46):
and I really appreciate that,but, you know, in a lot of ways,
they are required to maintainboundaries and have limitations on
how much of that therapeutic useof self or how much they can share.
And while we also need to respectboundaries and that we're not, dumping
our stuff on people, I appreciatethat it's not so regulated that we
can really customize and there is somuch gray, especially when we're doing

(19:09):
different types of things, like I'vegot my mental health OT practice.
But I've also got, you know, whereI'm coaching other OTs and it is gray.
Like as much as, I'dlove to call it all OT
there's regulations thatdon't allow me to do so.
So I have to be careful aboutseparating and clarifying.
And so I can appreciate that.

(19:29):
Like I do tend to share a lot moreof myself in my coaching business
because that is more natural andpeople are they are my peers and
they are, their other professionalpeers and it makes a lot of sense.
And so then to sort of put alot of my stuff on someone who's
really struggling with their mentalhealth wouldn't be appropriate.
So we have to be careful in.
Oh,
yeah, definitely use wisdomand discretion, right?

(19:54):
With how you share your story.
That's another I think thing isnot to be self serving when you
are in a leadership role or in amanager role as we all OTs are.
To not be self serving when you're, andthen also when you're saying servant, lead

(20:17):
servant or servant leader, to look at itas, okay, I'm sharing me, but I'm also
sharing this only to help you to get to aspace in this therapeutic process that you
are comfortable that you are safe in, inwhere we're going, you know, it's almost

(20:43):
used to navigate the therapeutic process.
Yeah, definitely
I totally agree about thediscussion that is used when
sharing your story, definitelynot just blurting everything out.
It's not about you.
That's
exactly,
that's the filter.
Is this about me or is this about them?
And I'll catch myself too.

(21:04):
Like I'll pause and go, you know,and I'll even say, hey, like I'm
inclined to share a story with you.
And then pause, and the questionI'm asking myself is, is this
for me, or is it for you?
And so I'll often even clearlysay, I'm sharing this story because
I think it might be helpful, ormight be validating, or might
give hope, or I don't know, right?

(21:25):
But, I actually kind of make myselfpause, consider, and then even reveal my
intention ahead of time, so they're notkind of going, man, I thought this session
was about me, then it's all about you.
Exactly.
And even letting them know in advance,like that helps, you know, just facilitate
community and cohesiveness that weunderstand that this is a safe place,

(21:51):
but I might ask you questions to kindof gear you into the right direction.
So that is exactly, I love it.
I love all, we're vibing here.
You're vibing.
No surprise.
And I think that's kind of, itcomes back to values, right?
Like that, I know that, everybodyhas individual values and everybody's

(22:12):
values are important for them.
But we do tend to gravitate more to peoplewith whom we have more values overlap.
And so we were, before we startedrecording, we were having a little love
in about this, how I really appreciatethat overlap in each other and the way
we show up in the online community,the way we show up in the OT community,

(22:34):
I know, and we want to celebratethose types of values, not
because also, obviously,
it helps so much to like share values, butwe want to celebrate everyone's, you know,
victories, we want to celebrate that.
We want to address their needsand things of that nature.
And I found that with being a groupleader it's an interesting balance to

(22:59):
find like out the needs because youhave to build like so much trust, but
once you kind of set the boundariesof like, okay, these are my values,
these are the values of the group
and if that resonates with you stay,if not, there's other places to go.
For sure.
You don't have to be everything foreverybody and people don't have to be

(23:20):
perfectly aligned with your values either.
And I want you to find this,the kind of support you need to.
Yeah.
So I'm curious to ask you, in thisseason of life, not, I guess, per se,
not like middle age, or younger, older,but in this season of life and where
you see occupational therapy, I know alot of people are wanting to get into

(23:46):
the mental health space, but they don'tknow where to put like their footing in.
And you talk a lot about values.
Where do you see places and spacesfor occupational therapists to either
embedded into their practice or to createtheir own version of the Brave OT you.

(24:09):
I think there's we can't talk aboutOT and mental health without also
addressing that there are somedifferences based on like how we're
funded here in Canada versus in the USor UK or Australia, for instance, right.
I think you guys have more obstacles tofully going into mental health in the

(24:32):
US, or there needs to be more workaroundsor understanding how to bill for things
and we tend not to, we don't need tothink about that so much here in Canada.
And so I want to acknowledge myprivilege, I suppose, in, in that
way, and at the same time, acknowledgethat we're always doing mental health

(24:53):
whether we're working with a kid on,like, if you're doing some sensory
processing or some emotional regulation,this is their mental health, right?
If you're working with a person who'sgoing home after a hip replacement,
there are mental health aspectsthere that you're addressing, right?
You're never just lookingfrom a phys med perspective.
You're never just looking from theproblem of what the referral said, right?

(25:17):
You're always lookingat the whole person and.
Yeah.
And almost always, if we're thinkingabout people in the hospital or
people who, are working through somechallenges, their disabilities, at the
point we get them, they're often inone of the hardest spots in their life.
And with that often comes grief and stressand anxiety and fear and so many things
that, that OTs are addressing it, likethat, that nurses are addressing it,

(25:42):
that other health care professionals are.
You can't help but address it, right?
Like I think of some of the most beautifulmoments I've had with doctors in my life
have been when they truly saw me and forwhat I was feeling and experiencing and
the whole me in this difficult moment.
Oh, yeah.
anyone that like takes a littlebit more time to hear you out and

(26:04):
hear what your needs are is alwayslike the primary care individual.
Yeah.
For sure.
That's the number one.
Yeah.
And I asked that because that's somethingthat I even see is a struggle for me
to make suggestions on, you are right.

(26:26):
There are so many barriersthat we face as occupational
therapists here in the states.
When it comes to at least in the statewhere I live, which is Texas, we're not
considered as mental health professional,and that is very disheartening when I

(26:47):
meet a social worker or a psychologistor just A licensed counselor.
And they say, oh, I did not know thatoccupational therapists did that.
Yeah.
and it's
heartbreaking because it's truly wherewe started right as a profession and
Exactly.
And it just adds into that sense of, well,can I then, if the rest of the healthcare

(27:11):
team doesn't think I can do this, can I?
there's so many layers of, well it'smy scope of practice, I know that,
but then I get into a job where I'm
not seen in that way.
And they're not seeing me in thatway because the insurance company
won't pay for me to do that.
And then I could go on a whole thingabout how backward it is that insurance is

(27:33):
determining your scope of practice, right?
Yeah,
but you made a point to say that, youcan embed that into your evaluation.
You can embed that intoyour treatment sessions.
There's ways to embed it.
Right.
Even on just a conversational level,even though it may not be billable,
having that knowledge allows us to bebrave clinicians and brave OTs to be

(27:56):
able to tap into that mental healthcomponent, because you never know what
questions are not being asked to family.
And you might be the only oneand you are shown as caring.
And we always talk about like advocacyof the profession and you, by asking
those unique questions, really opensthe door for occupational therapists.

(28:20):
They're going to needtherapy to shine through.
I literally just had a conversation with acaregiver of a patient of mine, and she's
going to be discharged soon from a lowerlevel of care to a moderate level care.
And I was just checking in onher and just making sure that
her discharge date was the same.

(28:41):
And I didn't start off with theconversation like, oh, miss so and so
should be discharged Thursday, Friday.
Oh, okay.
Well, thank you so much.
Take care, you know, click.
Okay.
And oh, I'm, by the way, I'mthe occupational therapist
that will be receiving her.
But I stayed on the phone likean extended amount of time.

(29:02):
And she eventually shared with me,she was like, my sister doesn't
really want to receive occupationaltherapy and I just sat there and
listened just to see if she was goingto ever share the why and she did.
She was saying that she didn't havea favorable experience with a prior

(29:23):
therapist and she didn't understandour scope, so she didn't see the value.
And I feel like that was mental healthto some regard, you know, embedding that.
Even just
thinking about how we motivate peopleand how we understand the motivation,
how we understand how they're acceptingwhat we're offering like all of

(29:44):
those aspects of, you know, mentalhealth, we're looking at people's
emotions and behaviors and thoughts.
And how all of these things are workingtogether so that they can engage in
the occupations that are meaningful.
And, so you're just, you're asking thosequestions like you, I don't think you
can do a proper assessment without askingeven if it's starting with, well, what

(30:06):
are you not engaging in and, in your dayto day life, are you doing these things?
And no, I know, I, I don't evenknow where to start with that.
Oh, okay.
Well, what's that all about?
And I can't imagine not, you know,or, oh, well that's motivation.
I can't deal with that.
Right.
Like let's go onto.
Just solving problems with real people.

(30:27):
I think it tends to be well receivedif people feel that you hear what
their challenge is and you go, oh, okay
I want to understandwhy that's challenging.
And I want to understand why that'schallenging so that I can then help you.
What do we need to do?
Do we need to adapt?
Do we need support?
Do we need to figure outwhy that's frustrating?
Do we need to choose something similarthat's, it's more accessible for you?

(30:50):
Like
what is it right.
And I simply at the end,yeah, people do want that.
But if they, if we don't take outthe time to listen, we won't even get
there and yes, I know, I guess in theStates, like time is of the essence,
but maybe that's where we shouldstart is just the listening part.

(31:10):
If you don't get to those layers,you often won't find out why it's
not working or why that person'snot safe or why they didn't follow
through with their home treatment.
And those things lead to readmissionsand costing more money and, them not
getting back to a level of functionthat they might have otherwise.
And you have to listento uncover those things.

(31:32):
things, right?
Exactly.
As she mentioned prior, while I wasbeing, trying to be a good listener,
she mentioned prior that she was like,oh, I have to go to the assisted living,
to pay the bill because she's still notthere, but we have to still pay the bill.
And I was like, okay,you know, I'm listening.
And I was like, we understandthat different levels of care

(31:55):
cost different amounts of money.
I said, well, occupational therapy is hereto make sure that you stay at the lowest
level of required care as possible, sothat way you're not expending more money.
And I, shared with her my job to bea caregiver training and carry over.

(32:20):
And I said at the end, I waslike, just give OT a chance.
We won't
let you down.
Yeah.
We try really hard not to at least.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's hard to be in a profession though,where it's sort of that common, thing
we hear among our peers that it's hardto be having to essentially justify

(32:43):
our existence to our clients and ourpeers in order to provide the service.
I think it's gotten better.
Like I've been at this for 20years now and definitely I do way
less needing to explain my valuethan I did 15 years ago, for sure.

(33:03):
Do you find it in the 10 yearsyou've been at it that...
Yes, I have found thatI have to explain less.
And it could be potentially, I'mjust, this is a loose thought, because
everything was virtual during the pandemic
that people act like caregivers and lovedones had to actually sit and maybe watch

(33:27):
what they were actually experiencing,like their loved ones were actually
experiencing in therapy, and they wereable to actually sit in our session.
And so, for what it's worth, wordspread about what type of therapy
they were receiving and voila!
Voila!

(33:48):
Voila!
Voila!
We are known.
And then I also feel like we are alsoserving our community better not only
through, like in person where we aredoing screenings and things, but even
virtually with all the groups that are,ever growing, we have these groups that

(34:11):
invite parents and invite loved ones andwe have specific groups where therapists
are now trained to pour in into thesegroups and that's encouraged, right?
We are supposed to be serving.
If we're not self serving, weare serving in community groups.
We're giving answers and solutions toproblems and we are being recognized

(34:36):
through, you know, oh, this person isout here sharing a lot of information.
I wonder what they know about it?
Oh, they're occupational therapistsand, we are getting recognized
for the types of informationwe're delivering to the community.
I like that.
And I think that they're like, I'mthinking about, I think some, maybe it

(34:59):
was a Facebook post or something thatI commented on or, but I think this
conversation happens in different ways,but, I tend to take the approach too that,
I'll show you the value of occupationaltherapy rather than try to sell it up
front that, sort of, let me explain allthe full scope of OT and confuse the heck

(35:21):
out of you with models and then you go,okay, I don't even know, like, no, thanks.
I don't know.
Right.
And instead I try to, I'm thinkingabout phoning and calling a new
client who's been referred to mefor my mental health services.
I often will say, hey, I aman occupational therapist.
I received a referral from so and so,were you expecting a call from me?

(35:44):
And they'll say, yeah, so and so
said you could help me with this andthis, or, yeah, I've been wondering what
the heck an occupational therapist is.
Yes, indeed.
I've had many of those calls.
Totally.
Totally.
And so rather than jump into all of the,like, proper definition, I often say,
often I've read the referral already.

(36:06):
But if, even if I don't have a lot ofinformation, I'll tend to say something
along the lines of, right, well, Iknow you're seeing a psychologist or,
you know, you've done this before.
And so occupational theory is a littledifferent because we focus on the things
that you want to and need to be doing andwhat's making it challenging to do some
of those things that you're not doingright now, figure out what the gap is

(36:29):
between here and where you'd like to be.
And then work on a plan together andfigure out how to help you do that.
And they all go, oh, I need that.
I didn't know
what I didn't know I need, right.
I love those aha moments.
Yeah.
I think I'll give you a try.
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
And in this case too, they're oftenmandated to see me by a third party

(36:53):
payer, which is interesting too.
They're like, all right, they toldme, but usually they do a good
sell
job or they'll say, yeah, no, Ialready have a psychologist for that.
And I say, yeah, you know, I'llactually work with your psychologist.
So you're seeing the psychologistin the clinic and you guys are
talking about, your thoughts andyour feelings and your history and
you're, what you're trying to do.
And there's so many layers of that.
And then when I focus on sort of,well, what are you doing day to day and

(37:16):
what are you wanting to do day to day?
And how can we apply what you'relearning from the psychologist?
Maybe I've got some other tools, but howdo you take that into your, day to day
activity and really live it is my job.
And they're like, well, I need that.
Yeah.
Someone, a client actually told methat she said you, because her, child

(37:37):
was seeing a psychologist and shewas like, oh, you're the doing part.
I was like, yeah, pretty much,yeah, I'm the doing part.
Whatever they're learning, Iwill collaborate with them.
And I am the doing part wherewe generalize the skills in all

(38:04):
different settings, whateversetting is meaningful to you guys.
And whatever setting you would foresee,because this was a child, foresee,
would like to see that child thrive in.
Yeah.
I found it.
It also goes the other way too.
When I'm working with the psychologist,not always, but I'm not always working

(38:26):
with psychologists often I'm the onlyperson seeing them and I'm teaching
them a lot of those tools to managethe thoughts and the feelings and
the internal experiences that aregetting in the way of the doing.
And I use a lot of acceptanceand commitment therapy in that.
And I love that.
And, but what's really interestingwhen I am working with a psychologist,
if I'm seeing the client out in thecommunity, I'm seeing a different version

(38:47):
of the client than the psychologistsees when they come into the office.
So they're seeing a personwho got dressed, got in the
car, drove to the office.
They are sitting in somebody else'sspace being a different version than
the natural person I maybe saw intheir home that's turned upside down.
And, and I can see why it's difficultto maybe clean the kitchen because

(39:09):
it's actually months of dirtykitchen, not just that they didn't
clean up after supper, right?
And being able to be able toshare that information back.
Or if I've met the client at a coffeeshop and they had like a really heightened
emotional response to struggling to findparking or, got to the time to order and

(39:29):
they got so overwhelmed and they couldn'tlook the cashier in the eye or um, problem
solving broke down or they couldn'tfind the words or the opposite happened.
They did great.
Like suddenly it was on and we didn'tthink they were functioning as well.
They observed them functioning, to beable to share that information back too,
is it's really helpful to have thosekind of, the psychologists I work with

(39:50):
often will say, wow, you're like myeyes and ears out there in the world.
Could you try this next?
Like I've been trying to teachthis to them and they don't,
they're not applying it.
Could you, it sounds like youcould maybe apply it here or there.
Perfect.
Yeah, that's truly the collaborationthat we as therapists want to see, or at
least I hope everyone that's listeningwould like to engage in, because this

(40:15):
is truly looking at the whole person.
This is truly making sure thattheir quality of life is top notch.
And you should want every teamplayer to be on the, on one accord.
Yeah, I absolutely love that.
And I think the same thing is goingto be for, my student, who, she is in

(40:41):
band and, band has a lot of differentrequirements, especially if you're higher
ranked or higher up and, those demands donot get easier as you go up, and so it's
my job to even reach out to the schoolsand, make sure that their needs are met.

(41:02):
And yeah, it's a little nervewracking because you have to meet
with people that are not necessarilyin the same professional field.
Like let's say, you know, OTsusually work with PTs or speech
therapists or case managers or nurses.
Well, you may have to meet with,the teacher or the band teacher and,

(41:22):
sometimes that can be a little nervewracking, for, us who might be introverted
But when you are taking on the valueof being a servant and not being,
you have to sometimes step out ofyour comfort zones to do the things
that you must do to make sure thatthe client is well taken care of.
So yeah.

(41:42):
Do you
identify as an
introvert?
Yeah, a little bit.
I would say because
I was raised as the only childfor 10 years, so I was kind of
like a inborn like introvert.
I do like spending time alone.
I'm an extrovert to the regardof making sure that everyone

(42:05):
is okay and well taken care of.
And of course, like as a therapist,I'm always wanting to make sure
people feel comfortable and safe.
So I would say that I'm definitelyoutspoken in that regard, but I
like to do a lot of alone things.
So would that make me an introvert person?
I think that, I don't know, likeI think that it doesn't do us a

(42:28):
service to have a binary definition.
I think the definition tends to bewhere do you derive energy and so
if we're an introvert and we can doextroverted things but need to recharge
our social battery or that we kind of
recharge with alone time rather thanrecharge with more social engagement.

(42:51):
That's, I think that's the definition,but I can think of examples on both sides.
I'm feeling like I'm more introvertedas I get older and also, though,
I'm thinking there's this shiftin people pleasing behavior, to
be honest, is a lot behind that.
Perhaps a lot of my extroversionat a younger time was about fitting

(43:12):
in and connecting and community.
And I like connecting and community.
I'm less about fitting in at this point.
And if I'm not for you, I'm not for you.
That's fine.
I don't actually have to sellyou on me being everything that
you could possibly need me to be.
I
think I can, I care toregard to not fitting in.

(43:33):
I don't, let me say, I don't care.
I do care to some regard only becauseI feel like if the way I want to serve
people is not being reached becauseof my inability to be understood, then
that poses a barrier on my purpose, onme carrying out my purpose driven life.

(43:57):
However, do I care?
Do I care about what people aresaying about me, how my approach
is, or maybe how different it is?
No, because the bottom line is everyoneis given a God given ability and talent.
And if you are true to that, then theonly person that you really should worry

(44:22):
about is in my opinion, like how Godjudges you, how God would say you have,
carried out your mission in life, andso everyone wasn't given your mission.
You have your own uniquerole here to play.
And if you're carrying out yourrole and staying focused, then

(44:44):
everyone else's thoughts andfeelings about you are not relevant.
And I love hearing your spiritualvalues coming out in that.
In clinical settings, how doyou bring that to the table?
Like thinking that maybe noteverybody would feel the same.
Right.
And how do you read that?
And how do you engage?

(45:05):
Bringing that spiritual side of you orspiritual side of them into therapy.
That's a great question.
I am very big on letting peopleknow that during our evaluation,
it's okay not to be okay.
As long as you're on your wayto being okay, as long as you're

(45:26):
making that one step forward.
And I always re remind them howthroughout our sessions, let's
just say, how they have grown.
And growth is ongoing.
It's never like evaluationdischarge kind of thing.
It's forever growing.
So let's just say we discharge.
That doesn't mean that you're not donegrowing, and I am a big advocate of

(45:51):
even when they're feeling like downor down on themselves or in lots of
pain, or let's just say oh, I can'tdo therapy today because I had an
unexpected, you know, I feel so bad.
I feel so guilty.
I just say hey, it's okay,things, give yourself grace.
This is the season in which you're in.

(46:13):
I'm here to meet you where you are.
And so I use words and terms likegrace, grow, and just really sitting
and listening and re telling them orrecalling them of where they came from.
Look how much growth you've had, lookhow three weeks ago you were bruised and

(46:35):
couldn't lift your arm and look at younow like, oh my gosh, I'm so proud of you.
I do a lot of I'm so proud of youbecause people don't hear that,
people don't get celebrated as adults.
I mean, kids might, but adults don'tget celebrated with the good jobs.
And oh my gosh, I'm so proud of you.
And I don't sound like, like flat,like I really make it a big deal.

(47:00):
I tell someone that they confide inor family, like, oh my gosh, I'm super
proud of miss so and so because missso and so, walked from here to there
and oh my gosh, she is just a rockstar.
And I think those terms don't haveto, let's just say, if you don't

(47:24):
believe in spiritual things, thoseacts of love, those words, and those
moments of appreciation is spiritual.
It speaks to our mindset thatyes, I can give myself grace.
Yes, I can show myself love.
Yes, I have gone.

(47:45):
I have been through a lot, but I amgoing, I'm going, I'm still striving.
I'm still in a work in progress andthat speaks to our spirit being.
And those are ways that I incorporatemy spirituality with my clients.
I
love that.

(48:06):
Do you have, I know a lot of workyou're doing is around helping
other professionals fill theirbuckets, as they're filling
others and taking care of others.
There's a spiritual question inhere somewhere, I want to hear
more about that in general, butalso how are you encouraging other
therapists to engage in theirspiritual selves, other professionals?

(48:28):
I do it several ways.
I have been just starting with, sometimesyou have to start with something that
is like concrete and understandable.
So I really start with theeight aspects of wellness.
And within that, you carryin that spiritual component.

(48:51):
And tapping into what they feel andthey know about their spiritual self
or their spirit being or their mentalbeing, I encourage them to incorporate
practices, whatever that might look likefor them, Practices that would in turn

(49:13):
strengthen their spiritual wellness.
Yeah.
And so it may look different for everyone.
It's really hard to kind of giveanswer to like specific strategies
and ways, but it's really
You're meeting them wherethey are, I'm hearing and
encouraging some practice, right?
So for somebody, it mightbe focusing on breathing.

(49:35):
Somebody might be focusingon getting out into nature.
Another person that might be prayer.
It might be reading scripture.
Meditation.
Yeah.
there's so many things.
It doesn't have to be religious, right?
But helping that person identify waysthey're connecting to their source,
to, to what's important, to, to ground.
Right, right.

(49:55):
Because it's important to be still enoughto take in what's disconnecting you from
the mind body and, spirit connection?
What is that?
And if you're unable to get to aspace to do that, then let's help you.

(50:18):
Just start with just sitting for like30 seconds, awkward silence is also okay
when I'm with a client.
That you don't have to fill thevoid with words, just because
there's an awkward silence..
It's okay.
Yeah.
Truly holding space for people.

(50:39):
Most definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love it.
Yeah.
I'm curious how, I mean, a lot ofreally multi passionate OTs, right?
We, I think we just can'thelp but be multi passionate.
We want to do a lot of things.
We've got ideas and, just,there's like, bing, bing, bing.
I want to do all these things.
I could see all of theseopportunities to make a difference.

(51:02):
And you're doing many.
How are you attending to settinglimitations on, how much you're
giving away and making sure thatyou're maintaining your well being.
How do you navigate that withmany different projects on the go?
I really appreciate youasking that question.
So I had to start this backin 2020 before the pandemic.

(51:25):
I had my set of twins.
I have, like I mentioned earlier, Ihave five children and, thankfully
one husband but, I started thatjourney, probably back in 2019 when
I was just overwhelmed.
And I was overwhelmed becauseI was, I had so many kids.

(51:45):
I was like the little womanwho lived in the shoe.
I was the little young woman wholived in the shoe and so many
children, she didn't know what to do.
Exactly.
So I said something had to giveand going to Maladaptive Exo, you
know, behavior is not the answer.
So wine, shopping, avoidance.

(52:10):
What are we eating?
Exactly, exactly I'm not gonna saybut for what it's worth, I asked
my husband, I know everyone thathas a different relationship with
their spouse, but I asked him forpermission to leave my full time job.
And I took a leap, and at that time my jobwas bringing in 75 percent of the income.

(52:34):
Wow.
Yeah.
And so I took a leap and I waslike, I need to leave because it
is weighing heavy on my mental andhe gave me permission to leave.
And so I left, I put a resignation in, amonth before the pandemic became COVID.
Oh my goodness, no way.

(52:55):
And, I was like, you know, I haveto create a boundary of protecting
my mental health before mentalhealth became mental health
and I think I had two things.
I think I, I don't want to call it likea panic attack or anything, but I just

(53:15):
got to a space that I just got tired.
And I was just like, I cannot be inthis space and care for twin infants.
I had at that time, she was like one, oneyear old, and then I have two other kids.
I was like, there's no way I can be aneffective mother and be a present mother.

(53:35):
So I had to make that decision earlybecause of just the circumstance.
Now, fast forward, obviouslythey're much, they're older and
they're all in school, thankfully.
No, daycare for us, thankfully.
And I still am here in thisspace of the boundary and why?
Because I, I value being a present mother.

(53:58):
My mom, she was a teacher.
She's retired now, but she was a teacher.
And of course with summers off, like mymother was just like a present mother.
And I know how valuablethat was to me as a youth.
With that, I was like, there'sjust no way I can be a present,

(54:19):
and know my children and I was willing,and sometimes still willing to sacrifice
the comfort of finances and luxuries,for the sake of being present for my
children and being present for myself.
Being able, I think I mentioned earlierabout being willing to stay in a quiet,

(54:42):
needing quiet time to think and be.
And we've realized the investment of notshowing up for a rigid nine to five has
had a better return on investment whenit comes to my wellness, my physical
wellness, as well as the wellnessof my children, because my children

(55:06):
know, my husband knows that I can bepresent, a little bit more present, not
to say that I'm able to do all things
and my house is clean.
My house is still a mess, but stillI'm able to do the things that I'm
passionate about and it brings mejoy and there's a higher return on

(55:27):
investment outside of what money can buy.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
So you made a very intentionalvalues aligned choice and then
found a way to make it work.
So it sounds like having the flexibilityof having a few moving parts allows
you to pursue passions and things thatalign, pursue interests and also have

(55:50):
a bit of a variety of income sources.
And then it's easier also to turn thedial down on somewhere, okay, we need,
I need to be more present at home whereit's easier to kind of do that rather than
when you're like all in on one commitment.
Exactly.
And not to say that dialing in evenmore is not a future goal for me.

(56:14):
But I'm pacing myself and I'm okaywith pacing myself and as long as
my family understands it, it goesback to being brave, like as long as
the people that you value the mostkind of understand it, it's okay.
But even when they don't understand,I have to be okay with myself.

(56:38):
I have to be okay with my values andmy needs at that time and that season.
My season will change where I'm not goingto be engrossed in multiple passions.
My kids will grow older and moreindependent and they may not need me
to be present for supervision or needme for a lot of different things.

(57:04):
They'll need me, but in a different way.
And I'm okay with that.
And I think it's important forus all OTs to assess what season
they're in, which season they are in.
And identify the needs of that season.
And, like, you alwaystalk about alignment.

(57:25):
You always speak of alignment.
And making sure, , that sometimeswith alignment, it comes with a cost.
Yeah.
And are you okay with that cost to have abetter return on investment for yourself?
I think
it's like, because what I'm hearing inyour story is a true tuning into what

(57:48):
your needs as a family, you being partof that family are and matching your
work to those needs As best as you can.
I know it's not perfect, right?
I think I see so often, a lot of theOTs I talk to who have businesses,
they're pretty high achievers, right?
And so there's this cultural normof constant growth and success and

(58:13):
success looks like, well, I'm, doing20 percent better than last year in
all of these metrics or 50 percentLike I get caught up in that too.
And it's not my values, but I'llnotice like, wasn't I supposed
to be more successful by now?
Exactly.
No, I totally, I mean.
I care about numbers too.
I call myself that I'm a typeB with like type A undertones.

(58:35):
So I really want in my, I really wantthe numbers to match up to the effort
that I've put in or the work I've put in.
And yeah, I feel the same way.
I'm like, by now, should Ibe making this much money?
Or you know, should I be havinglike a bigger place or doing

(58:56):
bigger things or whatever.
But then it's almost like you'relooking to the left and to the right.
You're looking at what otherpeople are doing and it's going
back to, what is your purpose?
What are you called here to do?
Yeah.
What were you called here to do?
Like you to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(59:16):
There's that sort of calling andanother sort of just a different
kind of spiritual lens as well.
Why did you start this?
What was behind yourintention to start this?
And I know for me oftenthat's a really good reset.
When I go back to my vision was clearwhen I started, I wanted to be flexible
so that I could be present with my family.

(59:37):
And I also wanted to earn more for myeffort than I would have, essentially
work part time earning full time salary.
And
have the flexibility to changethat up as my family needed.
And so my kids were small when Istarted and now they're teenagers.
One just graduated from high school.

(59:58):
The other one's just starting high school.
Yeah.
Very exciting.
But that need is still the same.
I still want flexibility andI want more bang for my buck.
Right?
that effort I'm putting in, there'searning potential by being self employed.
And I'd like to keep that in check, notbecause that I want all the money and all
the dollars, but in a lot of ways, it'seasier to have a part time job than a

(01:00:22):
part time business or full time business.
And, there's trade offs.
but there's lots of other ways
it's hard too, but thatthere's that payoff.
That's a bit better that you'recompensated for the risk of starting
a business, compensated for thedifferent challenges of all of the
hats and the instability and theunpredictability and all of those things.
So there's that potential but thefundamental reasons was so that I

(01:00:44):
could have the flexibility to bewith my family as the needs changed.
And so when I'm going, oh, but why is thatnot aligning or I'm working so hard here
and that's not paying off and I'm working.
So what's that definition of successby somebody else's definition?
What's the true definition of successis going back to that initial model.

(01:01:05):
I don't have to be earning exactlywhat I would have in a full time job.
But that metric of, are myefforts, equaling a similar
compensation while maintaining thefundamental goal of flexibility.
And by those definitions, I'm usuallydoing just fine and got caught up
in some other definition of successor what I thought would be here.

(01:01:27):
I didn't predict all of the problemswe've had with inflation and,
getting more expensive and peoplebeing tighter with their dollars
and that does affect business.
It can't help but affect business.
Yeah.
And it's impacting those who travel andmove and, and in, in my business too.
It's impacting every component, butit's, and it does play a question to

(01:01:51):
like, why, to if anyone's listeningwith us, aspiring to be an entrepreneur
or even entrepreneurs that want tokeep going, like, why keep going
when all these things are happening?
Well, I think we're going to alwaysface problems and we always are
having to pivot, but we, like youmentioned, going back to your why.

(01:02:12):
My why was and currently isflexibility, just like you, in
making sure that I have a clarityin my mental and my physical health.
And I've had so many, physical healthcare that it's vital for me to make
sure that I'm pacing myself anddoing the things that are meaningful,

(01:02:36):
that I'm not chasing the dollar.
And I also want to encouragelike even people that are scared
to jump, like they're probablyquestioning oh my gosh, well, how
did you pay for your, pay for this?
And how do you pay for that?
Like, I didn't know.
I don't know.
I mean, do you have a rich family?

(01:02:56):
No.
Was my husband rich?
No.
But opportunities do comefor those who take leaps.
Yeah.
And , while I have not been active inmy business for not a long, very long
time, I had to make a decision thatI'm going to fail forward because it's

(01:03:19):
worth my freedom and it's worth theclarity and the mental clarity and my
physical health and my family's worth it.
Yeah.
And those that love you and thatsupport you are usually the ones
that are like, yeah, go ahead anddo, what you're passionate about.

(01:03:39):
Go and do what you've been,you, you have so many gifts and
talents, like you should do that.
Go do that already, and stop sayingwhat you wish you could do, just do it.
And no, it's scary.
It's scary as hell.
Totally.
That's why we're here.
Exactly.

(01:03:59):
It's scary.
And it's, we don't know wherethe money is going to come from.
Like you said, inflationis impacting everywhere.
Do we know what our projection might be?
You might, but things happen.
And I've learned from having a familyof seven, things are always going
to happen, but it's okay to failforward, those losses are lessons,

(01:04:24):
and you can incorporate all ofthe components of what you value
into what you're pursuing andincorporate occupational therapy into it.
what better life is that is tolive an authentic you, pursuing
the thing that you love.

(01:04:44):
It can be basket weaving, butyou'll be a happy basket weaver
living authentically you.
And if you mess up.
Just, it's okay.
I heard this analogy, like alittle story about a baby and the
baby's trying to learn how to walk.

(01:05:05):
Like babies don't fall and thenstart getting mad at yourself.
Like, oh, I wish I , you know.
I should be a better
walker.
Like what the heck?
Exactly.
You all are walking
just fine.
And
How am I going to takethis next step again?
Oh my gosh, I cannot understand.
But they just get upand do it again, right?

(01:05:26):
And they might be running into the wall.
Guess what?
I'm about to run into the wallor into a table or something.
I'm sure there's a mom or dad pivotingthem away from those walls and
sometimes mom and dad may not be thereand they might run into a wall, but
that doesn't stop them from walking.
It might startle them, but it might, youknow, I think we should all take on the

(01:05:48):
mind of a child or a baby in this case.
Pursuing things that you love are scary.
There are things, there are so many scarycomponents, but to not do it is to not
have be authentic to yourself and just.
That's how I feel.
I like that a lot.
And there's elements of curiosity.
There's elements of growth mindset.

(01:06:09):
There's elements of just approachingeverything as a, an opportunity to learn
and expecting yourself to be a learnerrather than an expert at everything.
It's just, it's so freeing toshow up to a situation and go,
all right, what can I learn here?
Not going to do this perfectly.
So let's figure this outand I can figure things out.

(01:06:31):
And if I can't, well,there's resources, right?
And what's next?
Yeah.
Cause what you're doing is not selfserving, which whatever you're going
out to pursue, it's not self serving.
You're going to be serving someone else.
And if the bottom, if your bottomline is to like impact, make in true
impact, if your real bottom line isto make true impact in whatever you're

(01:06:53):
pursuing, then you should be okaywith reaching out to those resources.
You should be okay with making mistakes,but saying, hey, I don't know the answer,
but I can get back with you on that.
Because at the end of the day,if your heart is in the right
place you're gonna win anyway.
You know, something that I've beenreflecting on a pattern, how our

(01:07:18):
brains are good at finding patterns.
I feel like I've stumbledupon the meaning of life.
And the frustrating it's so dang obviousthat people are going to be like,
oh yeah, Carlyn, earth shattering.

(01:07:38):
Thanks for the tip.
Not but grappling with bigchallenges, big stressors, big
obstacles, what do I do with my life?
What do I do with my business?
What do I do with this family decision?
How do I handle this situation?
Almost always if not always, the answeris to be more you, almost always, right?

(01:08:04):
If, like where we often struggle is inthe places where it's, what we're trying
to do isn't aligned with who we are.
We're trying to be something better ordifferent or other, or figure out what
the other person wants us to be, orwhere do we fit into a different mold?
And then when we settle into, who amI like knowing ourselves more deeply,

(01:08:25):
knowing our values more deeply,knowing our strengths and challenges.
Being able to show up in the mostreal us, that real you is open and
doesn't know everything and wantsto learn, well, maybe that's not
everybody, but I think coming back
to our fundamental.
We people, we want to
Thinking about even as a child, right?

(01:08:46):
Like we all started that way, being openand curious and wanting to learn and
being humble and that can change butI think when we come back to our most
essential self, we do just show up andbe you and things should start to align.
That should solve a lot ofproblems, back to your values,
you're letting go of ego, letting go ofexpectation, and just more so tuning into

(01:09:11):
what's real, it solves so many problems.
Yeah.
And that's so funny.
I was thinking when you were sayingthat I could see someone saying, like
my spouse may not agree with that.
My, I've tried to share with my spousethat my vision and my dreams and
they batted it down.
Or this is not going to work for myfamily, we're too pressed right now,

(01:09:37):
or, you know, we're talking aboutlike the external chatter too well.
And I would say this, likegoing back to seasons, there are
seasons to start anything, right?
And if it's not your season, it's okay.
You can always revisit it later on.
Because I kid you not, a year prior,probably a year or so prior to me

(01:09:59):
asking my husband, hey, can I leavemy full time job, I had asked him,
hey, can I leave my full time job?
And he told me no.
And I was so.
We may have had
similar conversations in our house.
I can relate.
He told me, no, I was like, what?

(01:10:21):
And of course that conversationdidn't go exactly what the podcast
listeners will sit here, but Icouldn't leave my job at that moment.
And I really felt like I had definitivethings or reasons why this would be
helpful to the family or vital to me
or whatever.
But at that time, there was noreal significant change from

(01:10:45):
the year to the following year.
It was just simply merely,it was just the season.
It was time to transition and beingokay with, if this is not your season
to transition, that's important.
Totally.
Totally.
For
those who might be listening and,
You need to understand that component.
Well, I
think we think that, well, yeah.

(01:11:06):
I couldn't even think of earlier messaging
I used to like, go for it, leap.
And, but it's, there's needsto be a readiness, right.
And my husband and I have a lot of yinand yang and he is more like predictable
steady freddie, like risk averse.
And I'm more dreamy and like, it'sgoing to work out I can do this and
it's important to have that balance.

(01:11:28):
And yeah.
Similarly, I was like, Ineed to get out of this job.
And my husband's like, what?
What?
How is one plus two equal three?
I don't know how that's gonna happen.
If you believe one's not even there.
Totally.
But similarly, we then, I went backto, okay, I can appreciate that you're
not feeling ready, and what do you need

(01:11:50):
to feel ready, right?
And we worked on that.
And there came a timewhere it was a better time.
And there was a clearer opportunitythat allowed him to feel more comfort
and that this wasn't as big a risk.
I knew I was going to get work, butit was more tangible in that moment.
And it was easier for, and I respect that
Like it would put a ton of pressure onhim and create a lot of stress for him.

(01:12:12):
If I, then didn't get the workthat, that I thought I would.
Right and so I appreciate that.
That's respectful.
I wouldn't want him to leave his job,to come home and be like, hey I quit.
I'm out of there.
I couldn't do it anymore.
I'd be like,
Yeah, at least.
Like you didn't even consult with me.
At least I asked to leave my job.

(01:12:33):
Yeah.
I think it's also important to alsoknow, even if it's not your sea...,
let's just say it is your season.
But something else is the barrier,which is character building.
I feel like in this time eraof entrepreneurship and people
stepping away from their fulltime jobs maybe to pursue passion.

(01:12:55):
And you may not see thingsworking out in your favor.
Sometimes these seasons are there tostop you in your tracks to help you
with character building, to prepareyou for the future client you might
be receiving or to prepare you tojust be ready for the nuances of

(01:13:17):
entrepreneurship to slow you down.
I've interacted with so many therapistswho, they would love to pursue
entrepreneurship and they may havethe money and the resources, the
connections to make it a seamless process.
But if your character is not prepared,maybe this is a conversation for
another day, but if your character isnot prepared for what you will receive,

(01:13:42):
it will quickly slip from your fingers.
And then if you don't have a value systemconnected to what you're bringing to the
table or bringing to the market, that toocan deter people from, connecting with
your business or connecting with you.
And and that's important too.
And it's not always about the dollar orthe freedom, those things are important.

(01:14:05):
Yup.
But those are not the end all beall, especially if we're out here,
serving people and serving andmaking sure that their needs are met.
They need to know, they need tohave some concrete foundational
thing that they can relate to.
Yeah.
I think too, there's sometimes,maybe it's, you know, hindsight and

(01:14:26):
connecting dots, but others mightsay it's divine timing, right?
That sometimes that door thatdidn't open that we thought should
open, right now it's becausethere was another path for you.
There was something morealigned around the corner or a
different need around the corner.
Last year, my son wasdiagnosed with in August.
And, and I had been in a bit of aslump with building my online program

(01:14:48):
and, or just I was running my onlineprogram, it was going great, but I
wasn't having as many people enter it.
And I was feeling stressed about that.
And I had booked a sessionwith my psychologist, after his
diagnosis, just knowing it's a bigadjustment, there was grief involved.
There's like many, many things involvedand just adjusting Right I understand.

(01:15:08):
I said to the psychologist, I said,oh, and I'm she's like, how's work?
And I said, I'm stressed.
It's, you know, I'm working sohard on this and this and this.
And it's frustrating.
And I said, I'm just not, it's justnot as much interest right now.
And she's like, well, thank god, likeyou've got enough on your plate right
now to not have overflowing work.
And I was like,
Right.
Right.
And I looking now it's been one yearand it's been a full year transition.

(01:15:34):
There are a lot of parts that are stillhard and I'm grateful that I've had
the flexibility to make the time to, beup a few times in the night, and then
not getting back to sleep right away.
But thank goodness I didn't have eighthours of back to back the next day.
Right.
By the way I work, even when I'mbusy, I don't have eight hours.
I've got back to back clients all day bydesign, but also just, there being times

(01:15:58):
of it being a little bit slower sometimes.
And it chose me ratherthan me choosing it.
I love that.
And relating to just, like you said, thetiming of everything like so many things
have happened, for my family members.
I had five of, out of the wholegamut of the pandemic, five of

(01:16:19):
seven family members fought COVID.
I mean, not at the same time,but still, So we are caregivers,
it is a different, life.
Then I think about my children andone transitioned two years ago to high
school, and then I had one in elementary,we moved, in the past three years

(01:16:40):
ago, and we've had, and that's just alittle bit, you know, we've had so many
different things that have happened.
And they're not bad, these are not badthings, these are just life things, right?
Yeah.
It's important to going backto that know your season.
Assess your season, assess where youare, it's kind of hard to assess like
your per se your character, someone elsemight have to assess that too, but, but

(01:17:03):
just knowing, when is the right time.
I mean, it may never be the right time,but when things are in flow and good
rhythm and everything is in alignment,then you'll see the abundance of things.
The jump, but you know, howprofitable, the return on
investment, your jump can be.
And I think that there, there'sso much, it's a lot of freedom in

(01:17:26):
just doing it in stages too, right?
That there are times where it is a bigjump and then there are times where
it's just kind of slowly growing intosomething while you slowly taper something
else off and, or maybe you're justtesting the waters, or trying something
on the side and seeing what happens.
And then maybe I can reduce my FTE alittle bit or whatever that is, but being

(01:17:48):
able to go, or I've had some clientstoo, where they did take the leap.
They left the job that was reallydetrimental to their well being,
started the thing, and then it didn'tgrow as quickly as they thought.
And that sense of permissionto take on PRN work or in
Canada, we call it casual work.
And that's not a failure, actually, that'screating safety and security so they

(01:18:12):
can continue to grow this thing, right.
If I'm feeling frightened anddysregulated because my business
hasn't grown as quickly as I thought,then I'm not going to be actually
great at growing this business.
So how can I create a sense of thatI value security and stability, and
that can create a sense of, where Ican be more curious and creative and
that's a beautiful thing that it's, youknow, see things in black and white.

(01:18:36):
What do you need?
What do you need?
Maybe you need a little bit of thisand you need a little bit of that.
Maybe having, maintaining a 0.
5 job so that you've got benefitsand enough money to cover the
basis is what you need and thatyou're always going to want that.
And that they may be doingsomething entrepreneurial on the
side is, is something that Needsto be this big because that's

(01:18:57):
that proper balance for you.
Great.
That's not like self employmentisn't better than being an employee.
It's what do you need whatin this stage of life?
And we've talked aboutseasons a lot here today.
Yeah.
Whatever is required, for youto maintain like your purpose.
If your, business is not growing, okay.

(01:19:18):
Well, how else can you serve?
How else can you serve your community?
How else can you serve in a waythat you feel that you're being
valued for what you're providing.
I really hope that more and more OTs,while it's so cool that so many OTs are
seeking entrepreneurship and servingand, connecting with their niches and

(01:19:44):
really building some significant brands,it's so important to always have a
moment to reflect on the value system.
Reflect on the why.
Why are you even called to do this?
And it may steer youback to your business.
It may steer you into somethingelse, but don't be afraid.

(01:20:08):
Don't be afraid to be steeredinto a different direction.
I'm just so thankful for theopportunity to be able to, and
I know you are definitely, to
explore those options, and explore, evenit might be to the point of sacrifice
in other areas to be able to explorethe options of how best you can serve.

(01:20:31):
Like it's a phenomenal opportunity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thankful.
Me too.
So thankful.
There's something too around thatsense of gratitude, is about being
thankful for what is, which isvery different than an aspirational
goal, but rather what is here.

(01:20:52):
Can I be grateful for that?
And that creates so much more room forjoy and satisfaction and fulfillment.
Right.
Whether it meets what you thoughtit would be by now or not, it
doesn't really impact your joy.
Like the joy is aboutthat gratitude for what
is.
Yeah.
I agree how people look at happiness.

(01:21:15):
I guess the traditional look ofhappiness is, what you have, what
you, are, you have achieved, etcetera, but those things are fleeting.
Those things are not concrete.
And when you establish like yourbusiness or you establish your career
on something of your values andwhat if everybody canceled on you

(01:21:42):
and every patient didn't show, whatwould you still be in gratitude for?
I'm in gratitude of having askill set that I can serve people.
I'm in gratitude that I wasable to make it to work today.
I could have been hospitalized.
I could have been in a caraccident, and those are just
like surface level of gratitudes.
And I don't want to belittle gratitudebecause gratitudes are very much like

(01:22:06):
one thing can take away, change yourwhole life, but you are so right.
Like those gratitudes leadto joy, just pure joy,
Well, I am grateful that weare having this conversation.
May I ask you four more questions?
Yes,
ma'am.
I
What does being brave mean to you?

(01:22:30):
Being brave is being able to tell yourself
I am okay with not being okaybut I'm going to do it anyway.
Yeah.
That is very brave.
And what's something braveyou've done recently?
So right now I am hosting a therapystudent empowerment week where

(01:22:56):
we've invited several guests,for each day of this week to
pour into our therapy students.
And I've never had an empowermentweek a day in my life.
I just knew that after looking atfellow therapy students and their

(01:23:21):
needs and just assessing the thingsthat they're experiencing and going
through, there had to be a space wheretherapy students could be poured into
and had a safe space to ask questions.
And I really sought out individuals,and there are more people, trust
me, but I really sought outindividual speakers that could

(01:23:42):
really speak to their specific needs.
And I was super, super nervous because Ididn't know if I was going to get a yes
or no from a speaker, or I didn't knowif I was going to pull it off because
I too have a business and, youknow, kids and life, right.
But things are working itself out.

(01:24:04):
And I'm thankful that Iwent ahead and pursued it.
I was discouraged actually by someone tonot necessarily pursue it in its entirety.
And I did it anyway,because I just knew my why.
I had a strong why.
And if no one showed, I was like, you knowwhat, as long as it's recorded, I will

(01:24:25):
share it sporadically and someone willhear this and the timing will be perfect.
So yeah, that was my brave thing I'vedone and I'm happy that I started it.
That's good.
That's great.
Yes.
And I think it is easier to bebrave when it is aligned with your,
your values, your purpose, your intention.

(01:24:47):
It's like, okay, well, there'sreally no way to go wrong
if there is that alignment.
You're resilient, you're creative,you'll find other ways to use things.
And so it'll never be a loss,even if it's just a good
conversation with a few people.
It's never a
loss.
Yeah, never a loss.
Yeah.
Good.
What would you like to see OTsget a little bit more brave

(01:25:10):
about in the coming years?
That's a good question.
I'm gonna say two things.
Clinical judgment whenit comes to new grads.
Just be brave.
Just do, just go out there.
Just do it.
Just do it.
rather than
trying to find that perfectanswer sort of thing,
not trusting

(01:25:30):
their judgment?
Yes.
Yes, ma'am.
So yeah.
So just not trusting their judgmentor, just, you know, nervous, sometimes
it's just nerve like, oh my gosh,I'm about to treat my first patient.
And that nervous energy is great.
It's fine.
I'm not saying that it'slike, oh, don't be nervous.
You'll be fine.
I still get that way.
I still get nervous.

(01:25:51):
Right.
So in treating.
Especially when I'm treating a newpatient, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I
hope everything works itself out,but I really want them to trust
their intuition and trust theirgut, that everything will be okay.
As long as safety is a priority,everything will work itself out, Yeah.
You don't want them to be irresponsible.

(01:26:12):
Oh, most definitely don't want that.
No.
As for clinicians probably thatare not novice clinicians, I wasn't
going to be brave at just pursuingthe things or the thing that they've
been called to be to the world.

(01:26:32):
I think we all innately knowwhat we would be good at.
I really feel that we have some idea.
We may not know it in its full entirescope and how it looks, but I think
we all have an idea of what we aregood at and what we have been called
to bring to the world we live in.

(01:26:54):
I would hope that each OT becomesbrave in pursuing what they've
already been called to become.
And if they're operating in that,then keep doing that brave thing.
Yeah.
Very good.
Yeah.
Because some days wefeel a little less oomph.
Even if we are working in our calling,sometimes we can feel a bit beaten

(01:27:16):
down or is this the right thingor have I changed or has the world
changed or something else needed and.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And those things might havechanged and it's okay to pivot,
but that doesn't really ever reallychange the core of the calling.
It's true.
It's
very true.
Now, if people would like to connect withyou for any reason, where do you hang out?

(01:27:39):
How should they find you?
I tend to post, pretty much allof my handles, if you will, on
Instagram under Ebony_OT ebonymeans black, and I'm a black OT.
You sure are!
It's @ebony_OT.
And if anyone is interested in,my Black Allied Health Group,

(01:28:02):
it's @bahtherapist on Instagram.
And then also if anyone's interested inthe TLC for OTs group, where we talk about
tender love and care for our therapist,therapy OTs, it's TLC for OTs on Facebook.

(01:28:25):
I will put those in the show notesso that people can access them.
Thank you so much, Ashley.
I'm really grateful to have you inmy online OT world and so nice to
have this extended conversation.
I enjoy every time we talk.
Yes, indeed.
I thank you so much.
Thank you so much for this opportunity.

(01:28:47):
It's been really fun and we talkedabout a gamut of things and I'm just
so thankful that you are in this space,that you are showing up in this space
and that this podcast even exists.
So thank you so much.
My pleasure.
I don't know what the heckwe're going to call this.
I know.

(01:29:09):
I've learned that's sort of my styleis to go with the flow on this podcast.
And so usually when I re listen,I can find a string to pull out.
But I love how these conversations wander.
And I hope that the listener does as well.
if I had a mission and an objective andkept us on task we wouldn't have gotten
into some of the beautiful corners we did.

(01:29:30):
And I like that way ofallowing it to unfold.
Yeah.
If it's meant to be for the personwho's listening, they'll hear
the right part at the right time.
And I'm hopeful that it willempower them to be braver.
Oh, thank you.

(01:29:50):
I hope you enjoyed listeningto that discussion as much as
Ashley and I enjoyed having it.
If you're enjoying the podcast,please do share it with your friends.
Post it on social media.
Be sure to tag me, I'mmost active on Facebook.
Carlyn OT-Coach
but you can also find me on.Instagram @balanceworksot.
Thanks for listening andas always be brave OTs.