February 3, 2025 • 60 mins
Whether you're just starting a new OT business, or considering developing a new product, technology, or moving in the direction of retirement, I think you'll find a lot of value in this episode. I am excited to be talking to my friend and colleague, Ruth Duggan.
In this episode, we talk about a lot of parallels between the process of starting a business or a product and the familiar assessment and intervention process we use as OTs.
We share about our experiences in the early days of starting our businesses and how we've developed new offers and products. Ruth gives us a peek into how she is preparing for that next phase of her business where she's less active in it, and how she is leaving a legacy by transferring her knowledge through the development of an app and related training.
In this episode, we talk about a lot of parallels between the process of starting a business or a product and the familiar assessment and intervention process we use as OTs.
We share about our experiences in the early days of starting our businesses and how we've developed new offers and products. Ruth gives us a peek into how she is preparing for that next phase of her business where she's less active in it, and how she is leaving a legacy by transferring her knowledge through the development of an app and related training.
You are invited to connect with Ruth at:
ruth@cornerstoneot.ca
Cornerstone Occupational Therapy Consultants
Cornerstone OT Consulting for Therapists
ruth@cornerstoneot.ca
Cornerstone Occupational Therapy Consultants
Cornerstone OT Consulting for Therapists
Transferable Skills Analysis Online Education
______________________________________
We are still looking for participants for our research on the Cognitive Behavioural and Sensory Job Demands Analysis digital assessment tool. Learn more here: CoBS-JDA
______________________________________
OT Business Owners Need Community
The ACTivate Vitality program is opening up in March, 2025 for our next cohort. It is a thriving community of OT business owners who support each other, collaborate, co-conspire, co-regulate, and help you not be alone in private practice.
Together we build core skills from acceptance and commitment therapy to be more grounded and mindful in our practices, in our work, in our lives, aligning our actions in all domains with our values. We create community so that we can move forward in blazing some trails and doing the things that really matter, building more flow and satisfaction in our lives.
Book a Clarity Call with Carlyn to explore this possibility.
______________________________________
To see how Jane can help you reclaim your evenings and weekends, book your personalized demo today. Or if you're ready to get started, you can use the code VITALITY at the time of signup for a one-month grace period applied to your new account.
______________________________________
We are still looking for participants for our research on the Cognitive Behavioural and Sensory Job Demands Analysis digital assessment tool. Learn more here: CoBS-JDA
______________________________________
OT Business Owners Need Community
The ACTivate Vitality program is opening up in March, 2025 for our next cohort. It is a thriving community of OT business owners who support each other, collaborate, co-conspire, co-regulate, and help you not be alone in private practice.
Together we build core skills from acceptance and commitment therapy to be more grounded and mindful in our practices, in our work, in our lives, aligning our actions in all domains with our values. We create community so that we can move forward in blazing some trails and doing the things that really matter, building more flow and satisfaction in our lives.
Book a Clarity Call with Carlyn to explore this possibility.
______________________________________
To see how Jane can help you reclaim your evenings and weekends, book your personalized demo today. Or if you're ready to get started, you can use the code VITALITY at the time of signup for a one-month grace period applied to your new account.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So there's some challenges inbeing, I suppose it would be a
trailblazer in some ways, but yeah,
It's not easy.
I think I always think abouttrailblazing as hacking your way through
the jungle with a machete, right?
It's resistance and resistance andoh shoot, I went down the wrong way.
Yes, exactly.
I still don't feel I've gone down thewrong road, but I totally get that having
(00:23):
seen the machete action in real life.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
(00:45):
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
Today's episode is sponsored by Jane,a clinic management software and EMR.
(01:07):
The Jane team knows that when your workdayis spent providing care to your patients
or clients, it can feel like therearen't enough hours in the day for the
rest of your admin This can mean thatscheduling appointments becomes an after
hours task, turning what should be restfulevenings into extra long work days.
That's why Jane designeduser friendly online booking.
So you can give your patients thefreedom to book their appointments
(01:29):
at their own convenience, whetherthat's after hours or on weekends.
Patients can also manage theirappointments, fill out intake forms, and
enable text messaging and email remindersfrom their secure online portal, which
saves you from having to do it manually.
To see how Jane can help you reclaimyour evenings and weekends, head
to the show notes for the linkand book your personalized demo.
(01:52):
Or if you're ready to get started,you can use the code VITALITY at the
time of signup for a one month graceperiod applied to your new account.
Whether you're just starting out a newOT business, or considering developing a
new product, technology, or transitioningin your career, I think you'll find
a lot of value in this episode.
(02:13):
I am excited to be talking to myfriend and colleague Ruth Duggan.
In this episode, we talk about alot of parallels in the process of,
starting a business or a product andthe process we're familiar with as OTs.
First, we identify a need, then weexplore what the obstacles are, what
(02:34):
the challenges are, what's gettingin the way we assess, and from
there, create solutions, reassess,re evaluate, adjust the solutions.
This is how we go about assessingour clients, and this is a way we go
about assessing offering a new serviceor product in our OT businesses.
(02:54):
This So I hope you will find somecomfort in hearing this iterative,
creative process that is familiar.
We share a little bit about whenwe were getting started in our
businesses very long ago, and how we'vedeveloped new offers and products.
And Ruth talks about how she ispreparing for that next phase of her
(03:15):
business where she's less active in it.
and part of that is starting anapp, which I think you'll find
really interesting to hear about.
Hi Ruth.
Thank you for being here.
Oh, thank you for having me.
We get to talk almost, for, it was oncea week for quite a time and now we're
down to every other week with the otherproject we're working on together.
(03:38):
So this feels natural.
Yeah, that's right.
And, it's amazing to me how you can havemeetings with people that you've never
met, over years, and it's as a groupof OT, and you get to know each other.
You do
really nicely in both aprofessional way, but also personal.
Absolutely.
We will let people in a moment onexactly what we've been working on
(04:01):
together, but let's start with you.
Can you tell us a little bit about you?
Sure.
I'll start, I live in Nova Scotia,just outside of Halifax and I have
a partner and we live on the oceanand it's really beautiful here.
I've worked practically since I was 12years old as an occupational therapist.
(04:24):
Not really.
I just,
unofficially for a few years.
Yes.
I became an OT, when I was like 21years old, back in the 80s, and I've
been doing it for more than 35 years,and I've gotten the opportunity to
work in a lot of different settings.
You start off in something where youthink you want to be in pediatrics,
(04:46):
and then I went to a rehab jobwhere I worked for seven or eight
years, and then I went overseas, andworked in the Middle East for three
years as part of a Canadian team.
And, in doing that, that wasprobably the first risky thing
I've ever done in my life.
The Ministry of Health was lookingat improving rehab services.
(05:09):
And so a team of Canadian therapists,OTs, physios, speech therapists, nurses,
we had a full roster, and we went andset up a rehab center and we taught local
therapists, and we provided services.
my role was to help to establish an adultneuro program with the therapist there.
(05:30):
So we did, seating education, we didstroke education, spinal cord injury,
and then I got partnered up withone of the therapists and we started
to make some inroads into an acuteneuro hospital where I had never
worked before, you know what OT does.
(05:50):
And so I went in with this one therapistand six months or a year, every week we
went in and Went for rounds and said wherewe could help and, really starting to
gradually, increase the services there.
Now that was a long time ago.
And since then Kuwaitnow has an OT school.
So it's come a really a long way.
(06:12):
I think there were seven OTs whenwe first went in the whole country.
Wow.
So it was a big deal.
Yeah.
It was kind of a good thing to do.
And anyway, that was a sidebar.
When I came back, I couldn't imagineworking in a traditional setting anymore,
so I went into private practice and didthat on my own for a couple years, but
(06:36):
then joined a group of OTs, and we'vebuilt a really nice practice here in
Nova Scotia of, we've got 12 or 13 in ourgroup, and we do all kinds of services.
We're community based and, you know.
when you're in private practice, yousee where needs are, and you go to them.
Yeah, it's filling in gaps, right?
(06:57):
That's right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So you learn a lot over the years.
And, as you've done, if you learnsomething, you apply it in new settings.
So let's, and that's what you dowith your activate work, right?
Yeah.
and my private practice also,translating some things to the ACTivate
Vitality, stuff and coaching has beenone thing too, but yeah, that finding
(07:19):
ways of adapting and iterating.
I remember when I first was dipping mytoe into going into private practice,
and I remember going to Alberta meetingof, OTs who are in private practice.
And at that time it was almost allmedical legal OTs, which wasn't an
area I was really interested in, buthow am I connecting with the other
(07:39):
people who are doing private work?
What's needed?
I needed to information gather.
And so somebody noticed me as anewbie coming into that meeting.
They'd been meeting for 10 yearsor something at that point.
And I said, they'relike, Oh, what do you do?
I'm like, I don't even know.
Here's what I know how to do.
Like I had worked at CBI for years before.
And, and then I worked in home care.
(08:00):
I'm like, here's what I know how todo, but I'm not even sure what people
are looking for here cause a lot of my,Private work had been in Ontario also
and needed to get the lay of the land.
And somebody said, Oh, Iwould call what you do this.
I'm like, okay, sure.
I'll do that.
And, but just getting to know peopleand just humanizing that experience and
then finding, okay, I ended up doing alot of long term disability work in the
(08:21):
end, but that wasn't, I didn't know thatthere was a big demand for it at the time.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I, and what you probably foundwas that's the work that happens
to be there, so that's what you do.
Yeah.
And then you start to find a nichewhere you're good at mental health and
then you get drawn into that, area.
So yeah, that's true.
Kind of what happens.
And now you are in the, this phase of yourcareer where you're starting to look at
(08:47):
that occupational shift for yourself inwhat that wind down looks like or what,
and I know you already take time off andtravel a lot and have gone to lots of
interesting places, but you're not wantingto, just cut it off and be done with work.
What's this, tell me about this phase.
Well, it started a long timeago, probably 10 years ago.
(09:10):
When my business partner and I werestarting to look at that transition shift,
because you know it's coming, right?
and, one of the things that we talkedabout with our business consultant
back then was setting up somethings for, some opportunities for
passive income, as well as Which,
P. S. is never passive.
(09:30):
No, I know, I was going tosay, it's a mountain of work.
Yeah that, and one of the things thatwas suggested was also this transfer
of knowledge because what we weretrying to do was make our company
be less about us as individuals andmore about us as a group that we
would all have the same knowledge.
(09:51):
And setting up educationprograms was part of that.
So how do we, teach the therapiststhat are working with us that are
more junior how to do the samethings that we've been doing, and
some of the more challenging work.
So it's specifically in my case, this isnot all I've done, but I've done a lot
of it, is the vocational types of work.
So job demands analysis, ergonomicassessments, and then some of that medical
(10:16):
legal stuff, the transferable skillsanalysis and employability assessments.
And so that's has beenmy corner in our company.
And, so as people, as we've hadtherapists come through, I teach them
what I can, but what I decided to dowas put together education programs.
(10:37):
So it's less about, again, lessabout me, and more about, 'how can
I transfer that knowledge without mebeing there all the time?' So I was
putting together protocols that peoplecould look at and, and as I was doing
one specific one for transferableskills analysis, I said, 'if I'm doing
this for my team, I should probablyalso just put it out there for other
(11:00):
people to do.' And that snowballed intosomething much bigger than a nice idea.
Yeah.
Cause there are so many ways to do this,like even backing up a little bit too,
thinking about, okay, as I prepare formy business to not be about me before
the end of my involvement, There wasan episode I did with Gary Thorne,
(11:22):
who does business advising with, smalltherapy businesses, clinical businesses.
And he was talking too about if youwere preparing to sell it, which isn't
what you've described, but you need todo that too, where you detach it from,
everybody likes to work with Ruth.
That's why Ruth's business is busy.
Nobody's going to buy Ruth's businesswithout Ruth, because it's all
about Ruth and her relationships.
Exactly.
(11:44):
You need to prepare ahead of timefor that being not about you.
It's about processes and waysthat you do things and that
other people can replicate that.
And so as you think about transferringyourself out of the business,
you're not necessarily selling itto a third party, but how is that
replicated within the business?
That's right.
Yeah.
(12:04):
Yeah.
And it makes it moresaleable, if that's a word.
That's the financialpeople use that as a word.
But if we did decide to sell, thenhaving those protocols and education
programs in place, it's a hugeselling factor, or it's an advantage
to somebody who wants to buy it.
Yes, indeed.
(12:25):
And so then you start thinking too, you'relike, wait a minute, I can teach other
people this, it doesn't have to staynecessarily all of it within the business.
The business has a structure and away of going from start to finish.
But there are skills that you're teachingclinicians that you can then translate.
And there are many waysone could do that, right?
That's right.
(12:45):
You could teach at a university,you could put on your own courses,
you could write a book, you could.
Yeah.
Create an app.
Yeah.
That's right.
You, and you've donea few of those things.
And I have done a few of those things.
And so yes, part of that is specificallywith the TSA, the transferable
skills analysis is there are appsout there that help with the process.
(13:09):
They don't do it for you, butit helped with the process.
And in my experience, none of the onesthat were available were reliable, so
that led me to, I can't teach aboutthis unless I can see, products out
there that are reliable, which ledto me wanting to develop my own app.
Tell us about it.
(13:29):
Tell us about the job.
It actually I got really lucky, ifthat's a good way to look at it,
is we use the National OccupationalClassification or the NOC.
Here in Canada.
Here in Canada.
Most OTs know about that already.
And that's a database that'sused to describe jobs.
And so we've always used thisfor transferable skills analysis.
(13:54):
And so my idea was I was going tobuild an app to do a search of the NOC.
But then just as I was starting theapp, the NOC changed its entire way of
classifying jobs and describing them.
So I got lucky there in a waythat now the new app is brand new.
(14:16):
There's nothing else that doesthis yet, which is super lucky.
It also meant that I had to do a lotof figuring out how we were going to
use that, the new structure in the NOC.
So I had to adapt my wayof doing the assessments.
Also, then there's a gap too inpeople going, ah, they're disoriented.
I don't know how to use the NOC anymore.
(14:38):
That's right.
You're then also providing athing that helps them navigate it.
That's right.
Exactly.
Beautiful timing.
Do you know that this, isn'tthere a saying about luck
only finds you in action?
that you have to be alreadyin motion to get that lucky.
That's right.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And I had already committed tobuilding an app with the developers,
(15:00):
because I don't have those skills.
And then like within the firstmonth we shifted because I went,
Oh, we can't do it that way.
We should do it this way.
And now that it's there, it'sfunny because I am coming
up with some resistance.
And, all my good intentions of puttingit out there, the people who have been
using the old way of using the NOC havebeen saying, we don't do it that way.
(15:23):
We don't do it this new way.
We do it this old way.
There's always the
old way.
So there's some challenges inbeing, I suppose it would be a
trailblazer in some ways, but yeah,
It's not easy.
I think I always think abouttrailblazing as hacking your way through
the jungle with a machete, right?
It's resistance and resistance andoh shoot, I went down the wrong way.
(15:43):
Yes, exactly.
I still don't feel I've gone down thewrong road, but I totally get that having
seen the machete action in real life.
Oh my.
And it's not good for everybody, right?
that's right.
You're innovating, you'redeveloping technology.
There's always going to bepeople who are like, nope, I
like the way I've always done it.
I'm comfortable there.
(16:04):
That's right.
Perfect.
You are not my customer.
That's right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I'm sure that you find that samething for you with the work that you're
doing with OTs in that, the people aredrawn to you because they want change.
Even though they say they wantchange, I'm just going to imagine
that sometimes they think they wantit, but it's really hard to change.
(16:26):
Sometimes they don'tknow what needs changing.
I find that's the challengewith my ACTivate Vitality stuff.
So often the thing they're seekingis not the thing they need.
so often I find, that, my niche isOT, or OT assistants, I support OT
assistants, I support PTs and socialworkers, but mostly it's OTs who come.
(16:48):
And generally they're business ownerswho are stuck in a pattern of some sort.
And in that stuckness, usuallythere's some self doubt.
There's some, uncertainty, there'ssome fear of failure, some overworking
perfectionism, like those aresome of the themes that are pretty
common in the people that I support.
And often the solutions they're lookingfor as achievers who want to do it
(17:10):
right is more clinical education,more certifications, more that sort
of thing, where the thing that's goingto get them feeling different about
things in unstuck is, it's actuallymore of an inside job and so I'm
really talking about that intersectionbetween personal and professional
development, where that high achieverwho's working too much is Oh, no.
Like I need something different.
(17:31):
Yes.
Trying to convince people of or helppeople identify when they're ready, that
here is actually where the potential is.
The struggle probably is, andthen the rest will work itself
out once you work on this.
Yeah,
And you would use your counseling skillsto get people to figure that out, right?
Yeah, which is tricky over theinternet with just easy if I can get
(17:53):
somebody on a call, but sometimespeople are spending a lot of money on
direct business coaching or clinicaleducation that isn't going to work.
I'm really just dealing with the placethat they're stuck and yeah, but I just,
I need to keep showing up and beingmyself, And that's all I do is, some
in the last batch of clients who justjoined in October, I think at least four
of them said they've been watching andwaiting for one, two, three and four
(18:17):
years, and just, they needed to be ready.
Yeah, absolutely.
it's just like motivational interviewing,a type of, intervention that we can
use is you have to be ready and youhave to identify the need yourself.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Anyway, you've done something I thinkI really admire because you're doing.
(18:40):
You're helping the profession byhelping OTs, and you're helping
OTs by doing, just being an OT.
Which ironically, Ican't call it OT though.
Because if the OTs that I'm supportingare outside of where I'm allowed to
practice, it's not allowed to be OT.
Oh man.
(19:02):
Do you know what?
You still use your OT skills.
I can't ever not not.
Honestly, I use my OT skills whenI'm shuffling the driveway or when
I'm talking to someone on the bus ormy OT brain doesn't ever shut off.
And so we navigate ethically throughthe systems that we are with.
I think that regulation isimportant and I'm proud to be a
(19:23):
regulated health professional.
I don't want to jeopardize that.
And if I can be serving the professionin a way that's ethical and I'm
drawing some clear lines where Ican, and keep checking in on that,
then I think I'm doing a good thing.
I think you are.
And, you never turn your OT brain off.
You use it with your kids, you use it withtheir teachers, you use it when you're
(19:47):
in the grocery store and you're, tryingto organize yourself to be efficient.
So yeah.
And it's that, when I'm sure thatwhen you set up your practice and
started moving into the, work withother therapists and that sort of
group stuff, you probably didn'treally know that it was going to work.
(20:07):
I had no idea.
Actually, I had a differentconcept in mind, right?
And I think that's a kind of thewhole thing about that hacking your
way with the machete trailblazingis that you have to take some steps
forward and Learn what's there.
Sort of like even me showing up atthat meeting of these med legal OTs and
going, I'm starting in private practice.
(20:28):
I don't even know what to do.
Like I needed to get a senseof the environment, right.
and what is needed and what peopleare looking for and what people are
paying for and then make the next bestdecision and the next best decision.
And similarly with these outof the box things that aren't
in our clinical practice, Okay.
You identified a need for, therewas a gap in this tool missing.
(20:48):
Okay, I'm going to goabout figuring this out.
Oh, the landscape changed because theresource that the primary resource.
Oh, okay, great.
Like we can adapt.
We're good at adapting, andfiguring it out as we go.
And we iterate, we evolve, we shift, wechange, and we respond by being in tune.
Yeah.
and that, like I say, that samething happened with my project is I
(21:09):
was getting feedback from people andthen I saw that things were shifting
and you just have to go with it.
Yeah.
Another thing that just came to mind.
As we're talking is, because I knowpeople are going to be listening to
this, and this is something that Iheard you say that you did, is you
surround yourself with people whocan be supportive of your goals.
(21:29):
And that might be other OTs, butthat could also be a business
center, business consultant.
if you want to develop an app, getthe people who, you've got to talk
to the techy people, because they,I know you spend a lot of money
on those things, but there's alsofunding programs out there that can
help with all of that.
And so it does it, like you say,it's that hacking your way through.
(21:53):
But if you get aligned with people,for me in Nova Scotia, we have the
Center for Women in Business andthey have business advisors, but they
also have programs for people who aredeveloping technology based businesses.
And so I squeezed in there becauseit was all online and it was a
different way of providing education.
(22:15):
And I got a wealth of informationfrom them on how to run a
business, even though I'm runninga business for 20 some odd years.
It's a different kind of business.
And, I don't know how to get to thecustomers that I need to get to.
And they set me up with people, Idon't know how to market myself.
And they set you up with somebodywho can teach you how to do that.
(22:37):
And in that case for the Center forWomen in Business, it's all free.
Yeah.
It's government funded thenthat you get this benefit.
And in addition, they probablyknow about the grants and things
that you should be applying for.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And they can give you ideasof how to, apply for grants.
And I even went to them when I saidI was looking for a tech company
(23:00):
and they gave me suggestions.
They didn't say who to use, but gaveme suggestions on how to find somebody.
And, yeah, just surroundingyourself with the right people,
I think is really important.
Yeah.
When you're trying something that'snew and different, especially
because it's not, the groundhas not been laid out for you.
And I don't know if you find thiswith yours is, one of the things that
(23:21):
I'm finding is that because I'm goingto be marketing this across Canada
is the privacy rules are slightlydifferent in each of the provinces.
Yeah, and I found, so through my contacts,not a very direct route, but, you go this
way and then turn this way and then turnthat way, and I'm using my hands here to
(23:41):
show that, I found a lawyer who's, knowsall about privacy all across Canada.
Yeah.
And so she can give me the guidelineson how to set up my privacy policies
and my standards and what's expected.
Finding all of those people can sometimesfeel like hacking, but you know, you
just gotta, you gotta hack a little bit.
(24:03):
It's, how do you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time.
Bite at a time.
Yeah.
And asking lots of questions, which canfeel vulnerable when you've got this novel
idea that sometimes people can get intoa bit of a scarcity mode that if I tell
people somebody's going to steal my idea.
And it's important to be cautious,but at the same time, you got to talk
to people to find out who the expertsare, who you need to talk to next.
(24:27):
That's right.
Yes, that's right.
And it's a balance in businessdecisions that you make.
And now I'm sounding more like a businessperson than an OT, but it's okay.
I'm both.
Well, yeah, and that's the amazing thingis I've been in business for 24 years.
That's a really long time.
(24:47):
You learned a few things.
Yeah.
And when we started, you know, 24years ago, no idea what we were doing.
you just see where the work is andgo that way and just keep doing it.
But then that's evolved into learning,wanting to fill gaps, like there is no
cognitive job demands analysis out there.
That is a gap we've beenworking on, isn't it?
(25:08):
That's right.
And that's how we know each other and,how it started that, and, again, get
that group of people together becauseit's, it, you can't do it in isolation.
So what Ruth's talking about isthat Ruth and I first met, I think
it was around five years ago, wouldyou say, or was it a little longer?
I think we, the very firstmeeting was in 2017, maybe 2018.
(25:32):
And we were met as a kind of abigger group of people who were
all seeing this gap that we are, wehave lots of tools to assess people,
and their functional abilities.
We have tools to assess physicaldemands of jobs, but when it came to
matching people with job, people'sfunctional abilities with their jobs,
(25:55):
when it came to cognitive, specificallycognitive demands of jobs, but also
as we got got a little further downthe line, we're recognizing that it's
not just a gap in cognitive demands.
Job demands, it's sensory, it'ssocial, it's behavioral, it's
psychological, it's stress tolerance,like so many things came up as we
(26:15):
go about, rating jobs in, a somewhatinconsistent way from each other, right?
But we're all doing our best withthe tools that are available.
Many of us have been using theCity of Toronto, which gives some
questions that are helpful, right?
But at the same time, nothing'sbeen standardized and we're
all doing this differently.
So a couple of different OTs might goabout seeing about a job fit between
(26:39):
a person with a disability Any, maybeit's long COVID, like COVID didn't
exist when we first met, right?
And maybe it's, but it's cognitive,like it could be mild cognitive
impairment and people are justgoing, I can't focus quite as well.
And a neuropsych assessmentisn't necessarily going to tell
the story for whether or notthis person can do their job.
(26:59):
it's these little kind of matches andmismatches with how their fatigue is,
how their migraine is, how their visionis how their pain is and how does that
impact their ability to then do the job?
But how do we have agood summary of the job?
Not just a go check it out, hearwhat the employee says the job is
and the manager says the job is.
So we ended up over time narrowing downto a group of a handful of us who've been
(27:25):
started meeting once a week to build thistool, to help us, summarize job demands.
Cognitive, behavioral, and sensoryjob demands is how we've labeled it.
it's been a big job.
it's another big job.
And again, it's that, one bit at a time.
And that's it.
Meeting weekly, and not doing awhole lot of extra work in between.
(27:49):
We do now, but, back at the beginning,we really only did the work while we were
meeting and brainstorming and, we just didit and we were very methodical about it,
and I think that's just knowing that wecan't move on to the next part until we've
done that, hash out what is the problem,then hash out what are we looking at.
And then how we assess that.
(28:11):
And we spent a lot of time on howare we going to assess these things.
And, yeah, I think it turnedout pretty well so far.
The part where we are right nowwith the COBS JDA, that's the name
of our tool that we've built, iswe're working on some research.
Can you describe where we arefor the research for those who
are listening and interested?
(28:32):
So right now we're at a stage wherewe're getting feedback from, users.
So people who would be, doing theassessment, but also people who would
be buying the assessment and peoplewho would be using it as a tool.
Stakeholders like employers or,lawyers, plus, clinicians who would
actually be doing the assessment.
(28:53):
And we've broken it into three groups.
And so each of them have differentways of reviewing the assessment
tool and then providing feedback.
and so right now we're almostdone collecting all of that
feedback from our test group.
We're just looking fora few more, clinicians.
I think to complete that first phase ofreviewing a report and, and looking at
(29:19):
the tool itself to see if it's usable.
And it's a validating it right now,and seeing if people would use it.
And if it's, if people agreewith how we've set it up,
it's the kinds of feedback thatwe're looking for right now.
And then we'll take that and do someimprovements and test it a little
(29:41):
bit more and, which is that processthat we were talking about, right?
How we've approached businesses, how we'veapproached offering different services
and, we'll put a link in the show notestoo, if people wanted to learn more about
that, but it's Cognitive demands analysis.
ca for Canada.
And we call it, actually my partnercalls it our cross country checkup
because we're from all the way fromhere in Nova Scotia, right out to BC
(30:05):
It was a lifeline throughthe lockdowns too, right?
Where we were so isolated and itwas so heartening to be working on
something that was future oriented,that was making use of this downtime.
And then, but this check in, okay, how arethings in BC? How are things in Alberta?
How are things in Ontario?
The middle provinces.
(30:25):
We don't have anybody inSaskatchewan or Manitoba.
How are things in Quebec?
But it was, yeah.
And then you and the Maritimesand sharing those experiences.
A lot of it was that building connectionin our team in the beginning too.
Yeah.
And having the lockdowns actuallygave us more opportunity to meet
and that's where we did a lot ofour work because we had the time.
(30:48):
A lot of our other worksort of slid to the side.
Absolutely.
I think there's a common theme here too ofembracing technology but that feels really
daunting to a lot of people thinking aboutbuilding technology because technology
becomes outdated, technology is outdated.
causes us headaches, but ultimately,it's a beautiful way to reach many
(31:12):
people and now that I feel like nowthat AI has exploded in the last
year or so, it's become much morein people's hands in the last year.
There's just this almost like a tsunamithat's overwhelming when we think of tech.
How do you feel about it all?
it's interesting that you ask about thatbecause what I approach the tech and the
(31:36):
technical people who do the building inthe same way that I would approach, an
OT assistant or a wheelchair technician.
I want something that does this.
And I don't care how you build it, becauseI don't know how any of that works.
But as long as it does this for me, Iwant it to go get information, bring
(31:56):
it back to me, allow me to adjustit, and then allow me to choose how
I'm going to do my reverse search.
And they did that, and and, They'd trysomething and say, nah, quite like that.
Just a little more to the left or,just like you would with anything else
as an OT, I want something, I want,a spoon that is angled just this way.
(32:22):
And, that's going right back to grassrootsOT, and somebody would build it for you.
And so that's, you're the expertin what you want to see in the end.
And that's how I approach it.
You don't have to know,
You don't have to know what the tech is.
You have to know how to find somepeople to talk about this and
go, this is what I'm looking for.
I don't even know what thatend product looks like.
let's talk about it.
(32:42):
That's right.
And I don't need to know, I've learneda lot about technology and how to ask
questions and, how to frame things,for people, and and I've learned also
about some of the background needs.
That are there, like how systemswork, we can do it this way,
but we can't do it that way.
And so I would have to adapt,how I got the information out.
(33:07):
And also working with design people, itneeds to be, designed in a way that's
friendly for people and easy to navigate.
And they don't always think about that.
some of those things,
yeah, that user interface is importantfor us because we're thinking about
the person interacting with it.
And so absolutely we can collaborateand fine tuning what we want that to be.
(33:28):
Absolutely.
So yeah, that's how I approachedit is, I wanted to learn, but
I don't have to, I'm an OT.
And I'm really good at being an OT.
So I don't need to also knowhow to do to build technology.
I also don't know how to do accounting.
That's why you seek somebodyelse out to help you.
That's right.
(33:48):
Yeah, that's right.
Because we, OTs are
such good DIYers.
That's where we go first, right?
And we need to start.
Start there, right?
Like you're not going to just startyour business and go, Oh, I'm going
to hire a giant web developer.
I'm going to we need to start playingwith some things, but there comes a
point where I remember with my planner,actually, I was showing, somebody came
(34:09):
here the other day and I showed her, Ihad bought a big coil binding machine
because I was going to make these things.
I even got really curious about.
Like binding, like stitch binding too.
Like more as a, I love todo things with my hands.
I love to create.
(34:29):
I love to make pottery andgarden and that sort of thing.
And I never had a vision of stitchbinding all of these things myself, but
I was like, I want to play with, whatdo I want this to look and feel like?
I wanted to build something with my hands.
And then somebody pointed me to Hey,it's only a couple dollars a planner.
If you wanted to print themon Amazon, I'm like, shoot.
Okay.
(34:51):
Absolutely.
Which again, goes back to surroundingyourself with people who know about this,
because there's somebody else has done it.
You're not the first person, eventhough you feel like a trailblazer.
You're not the first person to set up.
It's maybe it's that, that yourcertain activity or your certain
technology that's new and awesomeand makes you feel really great, but
(35:15):
you're not the first person to writea book or to put something on, publish
something or to work with Developers.
So there are people whoknow how to do that.
There are.
Yeah.
We don't have to do it all ourselves.
That's right.
And you talk to them about it.
And I can say a lot of this time, a lotof the time, it's somebody, I reached
(35:35):
out to you and I very first said, Ithink I'm thinking about publishing this.
what do you do?
you gave me lots of good feedbackyeah, I reached out to a couple
of other people cause you needto get different perspectives.
I've seen lots of videos about you though,in doing the that reflective practice.
Yeah.
And so in Alberta, actually, it'sin a lot of our regulatory stuff.
(35:56):
I see you come up as Ido different searches.
I go, Oh, that's right.
I know her.
So yes, that's, I'll talk for asecond about that because that's
going to be another educationprogram that I'm going to put out
there is when I did my master's, itwas a post professional master's.
I was living in Kuwait when I startedand, I wanted to learn more about
(36:19):
how to be more client centered.
And so, when you're doing amaster's, you boil something down
to a small, you get more and morefocused as you do your planning.
And what I ended up doing was a,education group with a small group of
OTs, and we used reflective practiceprinciples for, to teach ourselves
(36:42):
how to become more client centered.
And so through that, Ideveloped some ideas of how to
be a reflective practitioner.
. And then I presented at CAOT one year.
I presented at a couple of nationalconferences, and then the Alberta
Association of OTs, contacted me.
(37:03):
Boy, it was quite a long time ago now,probably 10 years ago, and, asked me
to do a couple of one day workshops.
And so I did, I developed workshops.
So again, you go, Oh, do I even knowhow to do this, but you just do it.
And you put it out thereand you get the feedback.
And then I was asked again to do,I have done a couple of those.
(37:24):
And then I did some webinars in the lastsix months or so, for a completely, not
even OTs, like another health profession.
And so what I've decided to do is tomake a sort of a one hour Take care.
Webinar on Reflective Practice forHealth Professionals, and so that I
(37:45):
take people through the history and ofreflective practice and how it came to
be, and then some different exercises forpeople to do that they can do on their
own, and then come back to the lessons.
That I'm going to put together.
So yeah, you take something that youknow about, people are interested,
Yeah.
Yeah.
(38:05):
You find a way.
I feel like that, I want to talk fora minute about the value of reflective
practice in being a practitioner.
But I think there, that, that littlepoint of, that once you know how
to, almost like a container to beable to sell products and services.
You can fill it with many things.
(38:26):
And so being able to go, Oh, okay,people want to hear about this.
Okay.
Like I know when I started talkingabout ACT, in OT places and online,
people were really curious about ACT.
Oh, okay, great.
So I, thought I would, you I was goingto do maybe a clinical course, but then
I was like, no, not a clinical course.
I ended up doing a clinical course,but, you start to just go, okay,
yeah, now I can create this.
I can create a webinar.
(38:47):
I can sell that.
I can, maybe do I want to dothat once, see how it goes.
Maybe that's somethingpeople can buy always.
And, it's very liberating to figureout how to create a product and
sell it and then be able to usethat process over and over again.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause now, now that I know about, howto set up the online program, it's easy.
(39:08):
I just need the content and that contentis just getting it out of my head.
And,
Yes, absolutely.
And it doesn't have to be fancy, right?
people want to hear you talk.
People want to engage in conversation.
People want to ask questions, right?
I wanted to just share that, I knowhere in Alberta, our Continuing
Competency Program, I really love howthey keep iterating it, and I was a
(39:33):
part of, revising it several years ago.
It's been revised since, but a corething is that we are, self directed
learners, that we need to be accountableto ourselves also as, I need to be
checking in on how my practice is,where are my gaps, where could I
learn a little bit more, where couldI do a little bit better, and that
(39:53):
there's this sense of creating asafe space to question ourselves.
And reflect on, how did that go?
That was a bit of a challenge.
Okay, I need to figure that out.
That was what was challenging about that.
What could I learn from that?
And it used to be, okay, tell us whichcompetencies you need, you're not doing
well enough at, is what it felt like.
And it's been an evolution to, okay,if we can create some Safety in
(40:16):
Reflection in Autonomous Learning, thenI can choose my learning activities.
So, is it meeting with another group ofclinicians where we can really define
what, client centered learning is?
Is it following a structurefor reflective practice?
Because truly me sitting down andjournaling about my struggles and
reflecting and discussing and seeing whichother things that I can learn from that's
(40:38):
much more powerful than signing up for theCEU course thing and just putting those
things on play to check off some boxes.
That's actually not necessarily going tocontribute to And, so I really value this
kind of spirit of reflective practicebecause it truly is at the core of getting
curious and opening up to what's there.
(41:00):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and part of that reflectivepractice process is noticing things.
So it's very much in line with, themindfulness practices that we see now.
the mindfulness has been
thousands of years,
thousands of years.
We just didn't in our Westernworld, really only started
(41:22):
becoming more mainstream inprobably the last 20, 25 years.
And even then it's really blossomedin the last 10 years or so.
And, that whole, the whole thing,and we teach this to our clients,
is that if you're feeling stressed,then, stop, take a breath.
(41:43):
What's happening to me right now?
and to do that analysis, with a clearhead, helps us, it helps our clients
to be able to get through their day.
It will help us to be ableto see where the problems are
and where we can, move ahead.
At the same time, it goes backto what you were talking about.
Sometimes we don't know whatwe don't know, so it's good
(42:04):
to check in with other people.
Yeah.
So that doing it ourselvesand being autonomous is great.
We also need to have otherpeople as sounding boards.
And you do that, that part of your,business is being a sounding board
and have, you know, setting upa safe space for OTs to do that.
(42:25):
Yeah.
and, they may be more focused towardsbusiness issues, but It could be with
anything with our clients, why isn't thisbathtub bench not working properly or,
just and just slowing our brains downbecause as you know , we're just, we
just, especially in the public system,we tend to just go on super fast.
(42:47):
You just need to get your work done.
Yeah.
And I find a private practice we,if we give ourselves the space.
Yeah.
We can slow down and, andbe more conscious of the
decisions that we're making.
Yeah.
Yes.
If we allow ourselves to.
Some people just continue that busy,busy in their private practice to more,
(43:07):
more, more, more, grow, grow, grow, grow.
I gotta, crank it out.
I've got to write 10 page notes.
Who's reading your 10 page notes?
does that serve?
what's the best way to serve?
while maintaining yourprofessional responsibilities
and doing what's effective.
But a lot of people stay in the,I've always done it this way.
I even think about something likesilly, like I remember working for
(43:29):
AHS, like we had to use black pens.
I don't think there's anything actuallyin our regulatory, anything that
says we have to use black pens, butI think I bought the black pens when
I first started my private practice.
and so it is, it's good to pauseand check in on what's necessary.
What's effective?
What's the goal?
What's serving the goal with this client?
(43:51):
What's what are the needs?
What can I revise?
What can I change?
And, and what's new out there, right?
I found I've been using, an AI thathelps me with my session notes.
And it's been a game changer.
It's the thing I've beenwishing for for 20 years.
And it's secure.
And it's You know, likeall of these things.
And I've learned how to get itto write me a progress note, a
(44:11):
progress report, which is amazing.
And yeah, but we need to, wedo need to pause and go, ah,
this part's really not working.
And, whereas a lot of people tend togo, ah, like I'm not good at that.
I don't want to even look at that.
let's That's right.
Or never take that kind of referralagain or get away from distress, get
away from places I'm not good enough.
(44:33):
Like it's good to pause and check in andgo, what could, what could change here?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think a lot of people shy awaybecause things are challenging and,
and you start to move through it andit's, it's been one, one thing in my
career over 35 years is seeing it.
(44:56):
people get stuck in just one way of doingthings and I think that's really great for
people who want to do that kind of work.
That's never been my way of being.
I like to do lots of different things.
I like to learn aboutlots of different things.
And so I don't just dovocational assessments.
(45:17):
I don't just do mental health.
I don't just do medical legal.
I want to do all of it.
You're a very typicalOT in that way, right?
Many of us were drawn to OTbecause of the variety of things.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's right.
and that's the, and taking thosechances taking those referrals that
you're not 100 percent confident with.
(45:38):
I think that is whereyour bravery comes in.
That's being just taking thatdeep breath can give you bravery.
Yes.
This is figureoutable.
Yeah.
What are my resources?
What are, where can I learn more?
What can I figure out?
(45:58):
We're OTs, and that's what we're goodat, is problem solving, is finding
out where are those barriers, assessthe situation, are the barriers,
where are the barriers coming from?
Are they coming from the person?
Are they coming from the environment?
and what part of the environment?
I see this in a lot of Facebook groups,but a lot of clinicians going, Ooh,
I just got this referral for this.
(46:18):
Where can I take a course on that?
And I often, think, no, go meetthe client and see the situation.
You may not need to take a course on that.
You may go in and go, actually, weneed to move this thing over an inch.
There's the solution, right?
Very often, solutions are practical,but you need to go in and assess the
(46:39):
situation and go, okay, in context,this person in their environment.
This element of their functionthat they're struggling with.
Yeah, I can see the answer.
It didn't need a course.
Yeah, we, you've already taken thecourse, you've learned to be an OT.
And so we need to trust ourselves,that we're going to know what to do.
(47:01):
And, I found that when I didinternational work, I was doing
volunteer work in some really needyareas, and people would ask, what are
you going to do when you get there?
And I'd say, I don't know.
And they'd say, how am Igoing to know if I can do it?
And I tell them, you know what, you'll go.
and you'll see what needs to be done andit'll be obvious to you because you're an
(47:25):
OT or because you're a physio or becauseyou're a speech therapist, you're going
to know exactly what needs to be done.
Our magic is in how weapproach that knowing.
that's where all this training comes inand it seems, I think people discount
their own value in that very often wherethat just seems easy like they're like
(47:45):
that can't be valuable, but it is, it'sour way of problem solving and approaching
situations is the unique thing.
So go do that.
Exactly.
Yeah, we can't just goin and be rash about it,
but,
but, go in with that, mindful brainand be aware of what's happening and
not think that, ahead of time, whatneeds to be done, because we always
(48:09):
have to get the feedback from theclients, from the customers, from, to
see what the environment actually is.
And it's not very client centeredto go in before anything and think
you've got it all figured out.
I know.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can I ask you my last questions?
Of course.
Yes.
what does being brave mean to you?
(48:30):
Being brave means to me is doingsomething, even if you're not 100
percent sure that you can do it.
I don't know if other people haveused that same kind of a definition.
I'm actually planning to do a compilationof all the responses and that one's
(48:51):
going to be tricky because it's actuallyvery similar response that everybody
gives slightly different variationon words, but that's, it's the truth.
Yeah.
And to me, being, brave is tostep out of the mainstream, to try
something different when you'renot sure of what's going to happen.
Like when you can't see around the corner.
(49:12):
The only way you can see around thecorner is by taking a couple steps, right?
That's right.
Yeah.
It's okay.
You can always go back.
That's beautiful.
I feel like that's thelittle soundbite right there.
That's great.
And what's something bravethat you've done recently?
Boy, it's tough because I may be a personwho's been pretty rash all my life,
(49:33):
but because I make calculated risks.
I think something brave recently that I'vedone, it just did putting together this
whole app thing is that's brave in that.
It's been a lot of work, and I can'teven overestimate the amount of work
that it's been for, getting an apptogether and an education program
(49:56):
and now it has to be marketed,which is, another hill to go over.
Hey, you're doing it right nowand it just seems like fun.
Persisting and being, so beingpersistent, I think is being,
that's what I'm doing now.
That's the BRAVE thing is just, Iknow that it's going to be okay.
It will be, however it turns outin the end, it's going to be okay.
(50:16):
You'll make it if it's notokay, it's not the end.
That's right.
How would you like to see otherOTs get a little bit more brave?
I would like to see OTs being morebrave in, as we just said, being,
being confident in their core skills,and not underestimating the value
(50:37):
that we have, as OTs in the world.
Everybody can use a little bit of OT.
Even OTs can use a little OT,
right?
I think taking on some of those nontraditional roles, looking around and
seeing what needs to be done, looking atmore vulnerable populations, because in
(51:00):
general, we the least vulnerable peopletend to get the most attention, I'm
afraid, and I've seen that in the world.
I would like to see people do moreof that, do more of working in our
own communities with vulnerablepopulations, but also in the big world.
You know, I mentioned that I havedone some volunteer work in developing
(51:21):
countries and, and in some risky areas.
Did I ever feel unsafe doing that?
No I didn't.
Because it was a methodical, calculatedthing to do, you know, and trusting
that what, like we just said, whateverhappens, it's going to be what happens.
(51:46):
And that's okay.
And you trust in your resourcefulnessfor handling what happens.
Absolutely.
What about you?
What have you done lately that's brave?
Hmm,
sorry.
Not everybody turns myown questions on me.
I did not plan for that.
(52:07):
Sorry.
No, this is good.
This is good.
Ooh, something.
Oh, it's coming up that feels brave.
I am going to be teaching, a moduleat the U of A, to the Occupational
Therapy students, the, this spring,and that feels really, I'm quite
nervous and excited at the same time.
(52:27):
Like, I'm very willing to take this on.
I agreed to it, but it feels so different.
So when I go and do a webinaronline or I write stuff.
Something an article or ablog or something like that.
There's this sort of underunderstanding that I haven't
published this anywhere formal.
I haven't, you know, that this is oneperson's take on what I see or observe
(52:48):
and I'm putting my own stamp on it.
And so there's something verydifferent about put doing this in
an academic setting where I feellike I've gotta have it right.
That feels a little bit intimidating.
And I mean, I think I don't have to haveit any more right than anywhere else.
But, what's the reason they'vebrought me in is because I am
doing some trailblazing, right?
(53:09):
So the module I'm going to be teachingis, on entrepreneurship and coaching and
it's basically about sharing what I'velearned along the way and, and being able
to, and I talked to them about this senseof, ah, I can't necessarily find evidence
for everything that I'm going to share.
And they said, no, that's whywe're bringing in subject matter
experts, people who have experiencebecause it's that experience.
And that's why we have these moduleswhere there are people out there
(53:31):
doing the things who can share.
What they've learned and what theyknow, where the resources are and where
you're not sure you say you're not sure.
And so that feels like it feelsvery brave to have said yes to that.
That's that is brave.
Academia is a tough world.
Yeah.
And I think there, the, that mylittle tiny segment of it is small
(53:54):
and low pressure, so at this point,
And if it gives you any encouragement,they asked you because you are
a subject matter expert, and youprobably know way more about this.
You certainly know way more about yourexperience than anybody else there.
About my experience, yes, it's true.
It's true.
And
hopefully that's comforting.
(54:15):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that.
So for people to reach out to you, peoplewho are interested, in, using your app
or reaching out to you more generally,how should they connect with you?
probably the easiest is to, isby email ruth at cornerstoneot.
com.
but we can put that inthe, in our website.
(54:38):
and then I can give you linksto the education program
that's is up and running.
It's just not fully launched yet.
And then the app, so that people canfind out more about it if they want to.
and can, if they look on the,education site, there will be
more things coming up there.
right now there's just that one program.
What are they called?
(54:58):
Give us the names of youreducation, site and app.
Okay.
So the education is, it's based outof Kajabi, but it's, a transferable
skills analysis online education.
Very descriptive.
Very descriptive.
Very simple.
Very to the point.
And the app that goes with that is theTransitions Vocational Assessment Service.
(55:24):
And that app really just is a way oforganizing your assessment process,
and it helps to search the NOCfor skills, but also job matches.
Thanks.
And will this be something thatwill be helpful to OTs doing this
type of work outside of Canada?
It could be eventually.
(55:45):
At this point, it's being justmarketed to Canadian OTs because
it's using the Canadian database.
However, the principles, again, goingback to the principles of the assessment
process are the same no matter whereyou are, whether you're in the UK
or Australia or the United States.
And, and so the, using the appis just one very small part.
(56:08):
And, so the education program looks athow do you actually analyze the data
and some guidelines on how to do that?
And how do you do yourinterview with your client?
And so it, it could be helpful to anybody.
Who wants to do that kind of work,there would just probably need to
be a little bit more work on theuser's end to, figure out how they're
(56:32):
going to do it with the systems thatthey have, like the Dictionary of
Occupational Titles in the United States.
They could always use the Canadian app,because it's still going to give results.
It just might not
match up exactly with how yourcountry, defines occupations.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
(56:53):
The CAOT conference thisyear is in Edmonton.
I know.
Are you coming to shareyour new things with people?
Goodness.
I should submit, shouldn't I?
I think our submissiondeadline has passed.
but maybe you could come anyways.
And you were, you handed outstickers like a mad woman at, I did.
For the BRAVE OT Podcastwhen we were there.
(57:16):
There are lots of ways to connect.
Yes.
Yes.
And there are tons of ways of connecting.
And, I might even at that pointset up a booth, In the trade show.
It feels like we were
just recently in Halifaxtogether at the last one.
It seems too early to beplanning the next one.
It may have been a little subconsciousway of my mind telling me to slow
down and not do too much right now.
(57:39):
And it's hard to know this far in advancewhat, yeah, what you're ready to, which
stage you're at and what's needed,or will you be overwhelmed with too
much and you don't want to be bringinga lot more people in just yet until
you've Figured out that next thing.
Yeah,
exactly.
Thank you.
So grateful that you cameand had this discussion.
I want to thank you for the opportunityto see and speak with you in your
(58:03):
professional, area, because this is, it'salways nice to see people do and they're.
job
Yeah, there is something about whenyou know people and you can see them
in, in flow in like truly doing thething that's they're meant to be
doing it, it is, I always feel reallyuplifted so I really appreciate that
in you as a friend and colleague.
(58:25):
And having known you, I knewthat this was going to be easy.
So it wasn't that brave to do it.
No, Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
totally.
Thank you.
Thank you, the listener, forlistening to The BRAVE OT Podcast.
I would love to hear how Related to thisepisode, if there was anything interesting
(58:46):
or great takeaways, please share it onsocial media, subscribe, give us a review.
These things go a long way to reaching thepeople who need to hear these messages.
reach out to Ruth, if you haveany questions about the things
she's talked about, her links arein the show notes so that you can
learn more about the TransitionsVocational Assessment Service and app.
(59:10):
I'll also include a link to ourCoBS-JDA website, so the Cognitive
Behavioral and Sensory Job DemandsAnalysis tool that we've built.
We're looking for participantsto test and review the
assessment outputs at this point.
We'd love to have you if you're aCanadian OT And last but not least, the
(59:31):
ACTivate Vitality program is opening up inFebruary for our next cohort to join us.
So this is a community of OTbusiness owners who support each
other, collaborate, co conspire, coregulate, and create a sense of not
being so alone in private practice.
(59:51):
We often feel really siloed and on ourown, and we can really get in our heads.
So the ACTivate Vitality community reallysupports us in building those core skills
from acceptance and commitment therapyto be more grounded and mindful in our
practices, in our work, in our lives.
And we create community aroundthis so that we can move forward in
(01:00:12):
blazing some trails and doing thethings that really matter, building
businesses that create that sense offlow and satisfaction in our lives.
So I will include a linkto book a call with me.
That's the process for gettinginto the ACTivate Vitality
program is booking a clarity call.
As always, be BRAVE, OTs.
So there's some challenges inbeing, I suppose it would be a
trailblazer in some ways, but yeah,
It's not easy.
I think I always think abouttrailblazing as hacking your way through
the jungle with a machete, right?
It's resistance and resistance andoh shoot, I went down the wrong way.
Yes, exactly.
I still don't feel I've gone down thewrong road, but I totally get that having
(00:23):
seen the machete action in real life.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
(00:45):
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
Today's episode is sponsored by Jane,a clinic management software and EMR.
(01:07):
The Jane team knows that when your workdayis spent providing care to your patients
or clients, it can feel like therearen't enough hours in the day for the
rest of your admin This can mean thatscheduling appointments becomes an after
hours task, turning what should be restfulevenings into extra long work days.
That's why Jane designeduser friendly online booking.
So you can give your patients thefreedom to book their appointments
(01:29):
at their own convenience, whetherthat's after hours or on weekends.
Patients can also manage theirappointments, fill out intake forms, and
enable text messaging and email remindersfrom their secure online portal, which
saves you from having to do it manually.
To see how Jane can help you reclaimyour evenings and weekends, head
to the show notes for the linkand book your personalized demo.
(01:52):
Or if you're ready to get started,you can use the code VITALITY at the
time of signup for a one month graceperiod applied to your new account.
Whether you're just starting out a newOT business, or considering developing a
new product, technology, or transitioningin your career, I think you'll find
a lot of value in this episode.
(02:13):
I am excited to be talking to myfriend and colleague Ruth Duggan.
In this episode, we talk about alot of parallels in the process of,
starting a business or a product andthe process we're familiar with as OTs.
First, we identify a need, then weexplore what the obstacles are, what
(02:34):
the challenges are, what's gettingin the way we assess, and from
there, create solutions, reassess,re evaluate, adjust the solutions.
This is how we go about assessingour clients, and this is a way we go
about assessing offering a new serviceor product in our OT businesses.
(02:54):
This So I hope you will find somecomfort in hearing this iterative,
creative process that is familiar.
We share a little bit about whenwe were getting started in our
businesses very long ago, and how we'vedeveloped new offers and products.
And Ruth talks about how she ispreparing for that next phase of her
(03:15):
business where she's less active in it.
and part of that is starting anapp, which I think you'll find
really interesting to hear about.
Hi Ruth.
Thank you for being here.
Oh, thank you for having me.
We get to talk almost, for, it was oncea week for quite a time and now we're
down to every other week with the otherproject we're working on together.
(03:38):
So this feels natural.
Yeah, that's right.
And, it's amazing to me how you can havemeetings with people that you've never
met, over years, and it's as a groupof OT, and you get to know each other.
You do
really nicely in both aprofessional way, but also personal.
Absolutely.
We will let people in a moment onexactly what we've been working on
(04:01):
together, but let's start with you.
Can you tell us a little bit about you?
Sure.
I'll start, I live in Nova Scotia,just outside of Halifax and I have
a partner and we live on the oceanand it's really beautiful here.
I've worked practically since I was 12years old as an occupational therapist.
(04:24):
Not really.
I just,
unofficially for a few years.
Yes.
I became an OT, when I was like 21years old, back in the 80s, and I've
been doing it for more than 35 years,and I've gotten the opportunity to
work in a lot of different settings.
You start off in something where youthink you want to be in pediatrics,
(04:46):
and then I went to a rehab jobwhere I worked for seven or eight
years, and then I went overseas, andworked in the Middle East for three
years as part of a Canadian team.
And, in doing that, that wasprobably the first risky thing
I've ever done in my life.
The Ministry of Health was lookingat improving rehab services.
(05:09):
And so a team of Canadian therapists,OTs, physios, speech therapists, nurses,
we had a full roster, and we went andset up a rehab center and we taught local
therapists, and we provided services.
my role was to help to establish an adultneuro program with the therapist there.
(05:30):
So we did, seating education, we didstroke education, spinal cord injury,
and then I got partnered up withone of the therapists and we started
to make some inroads into an acuteneuro hospital where I had never
worked before, you know what OT does.
(05:50):
And so I went in with this one therapistand six months or a year, every week we
went in and Went for rounds and said wherewe could help and, really starting to
gradually, increase the services there.
Now that was a long time ago.
And since then Kuwaitnow has an OT school.
So it's come a really a long way.
(06:12):
I think there were seven OTs whenwe first went in the whole country.
Wow.
So it was a big deal.
Yeah.
It was kind of a good thing to do.
And anyway, that was a sidebar.
When I came back, I couldn't imagineworking in a traditional setting anymore,
so I went into private practice and didthat on my own for a couple years, but
(06:36):
then joined a group of OTs, and we'vebuilt a really nice practice here in
Nova Scotia of, we've got 12 or 13 in ourgroup, and we do all kinds of services.
We're community based and, you know.
when you're in private practice, yousee where needs are, and you go to them.
Yeah, it's filling in gaps, right?
(06:57):
That's right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So you learn a lot over the years.
And, as you've done, if you learnsomething, you apply it in new settings.
So let's, and that's what you dowith your activate work, right?
Yeah.
and my private practice also,translating some things to the ACTivate
Vitality, stuff and coaching has beenone thing too, but yeah, that finding
(07:19):
ways of adapting and iterating.
I remember when I first was dipping mytoe into going into private practice,
and I remember going to Alberta meetingof, OTs who are in private practice.
And at that time it was almost allmedical legal OTs, which wasn't an
area I was really interested in, buthow am I connecting with the other
(07:39):
people who are doing private work?
What's needed?
I needed to information gather.
And so somebody noticed me as anewbie coming into that meeting.
They'd been meeting for 10 yearsor something at that point.
And I said, they'relike, Oh, what do you do?
I'm like, I don't even know.
Here's what I know how to do.
Like I had worked at CBI for years before.
And, and then I worked in home care.
(08:00):
I'm like, here's what I know how todo, but I'm not even sure what people
are looking for here cause a lot of my,Private work had been in Ontario also
and needed to get the lay of the land.
And somebody said, Oh, Iwould call what you do this.
I'm like, okay, sure.
I'll do that.
And, but just getting to know peopleand just humanizing that experience and
then finding, okay, I ended up doing alot of long term disability work in the
(08:21):
end, but that wasn't, I didn't know thatthere was a big demand for it at the time.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I, and what you probably foundwas that's the work that happens
to be there, so that's what you do.
Yeah.
And then you start to find a nichewhere you're good at mental health and
then you get drawn into that, area.
So yeah, that's true.
Kind of what happens.
And now you are in the, this phase of yourcareer where you're starting to look at
(08:47):
that occupational shift for yourself inwhat that wind down looks like or what,
and I know you already take time off andtravel a lot and have gone to lots of
interesting places, but you're not wantingto, just cut it off and be done with work.
What's this, tell me about this phase.
Well, it started a long timeago, probably 10 years ago.
(09:10):
When my business partner and I werestarting to look at that transition shift,
because you know it's coming, right?
and, one of the things that we talkedabout with our business consultant
back then was setting up somethings for, some opportunities for
passive income, as well as Which,
P. S. is never passive.
(09:30):
No, I know, I was going tosay, it's a mountain of work.
Yeah that, and one of the things thatwas suggested was also this transfer
of knowledge because what we weretrying to do was make our company
be less about us as individuals andmore about us as a group that we
would all have the same knowledge.
(09:51):
And setting up educationprograms was part of that.
So how do we, teach the therapiststhat are working with us that are
more junior how to do the samethings that we've been doing, and
some of the more challenging work.
So it's specifically in my case, this isnot all I've done, but I've done a lot
of it, is the vocational types of work.
So job demands analysis, ergonomicassessments, and then some of that medical
(10:16):
legal stuff, the transferable skillsanalysis and employability assessments.
And so that's has beenmy corner in our company.
And, so as people, as we've hadtherapists come through, I teach them
what I can, but what I decided to dowas put together education programs.
(10:37):
So it's less about, again, lessabout me, and more about, 'how can
I transfer that knowledge without mebeing there all the time?' So I was
putting together protocols that peoplecould look at and, and as I was doing
one specific one for transferableskills analysis, I said, 'if I'm doing
this for my team, I should probablyalso just put it out there for other
(11:00):
people to do.' And that snowballed intosomething much bigger than a nice idea.
Yeah.
Cause there are so many ways to do this,like even backing up a little bit too,
thinking about, okay, as I prepare formy business to not be about me before
the end of my involvement, There wasan episode I did with Gary Thorne,
(11:22):
who does business advising with, smalltherapy businesses, clinical businesses.
And he was talking too about if youwere preparing to sell it, which isn't
what you've described, but you need todo that too, where you detach it from,
everybody likes to work with Ruth.
That's why Ruth's business is busy.
Nobody's going to buy Ruth's businesswithout Ruth, because it's all
about Ruth and her relationships.
Exactly.
(11:44):
You need to prepare ahead of timefor that being not about you.
It's about processes and waysthat you do things and that
other people can replicate that.
And so as you think about transferringyourself out of the business,
you're not necessarily selling itto a third party, but how is that
replicated within the business?
That's right.
Yeah.
(12:04):
Yeah.
And it makes it moresaleable, if that's a word.
That's the financialpeople use that as a word.
But if we did decide to sell, thenhaving those protocols and education
programs in place, it's a hugeselling factor, or it's an advantage
to somebody who wants to buy it.
Yes, indeed.
(12:25):
And so then you start thinking too, you'relike, wait a minute, I can teach other
people this, it doesn't have to staynecessarily all of it within the business.
The business has a structure and away of going from start to finish.
But there are skills that you're teachingclinicians that you can then translate.
And there are many waysone could do that, right?
That's right.
(12:45):
You could teach at a university,you could put on your own courses,
you could write a book, you could.
Yeah.
Create an app.
Yeah.
That's right.
You, and you've donea few of those things.
And I have done a few of those things.
And so yes, part of that is specificallywith the TSA, the transferable
skills analysis is there are appsout there that help with the process.
(13:09):
They don't do it for you, butit helped with the process.
And in my experience, none of the onesthat were available were reliable, so
that led me to, I can't teach aboutthis unless I can see, products out
there that are reliable, which ledto me wanting to develop my own app.
Tell us about it.
(13:29):
Tell us about the job.
It actually I got really lucky, ifthat's a good way to look at it,
is we use the National OccupationalClassification or the NOC.
Here in Canada.
Here in Canada.
Most OTs know about that already.
And that's a database that'sused to describe jobs.
And so we've always used thisfor transferable skills analysis.
(13:54):
And so my idea was I was going tobuild an app to do a search of the NOC.
But then just as I was starting theapp, the NOC changed its entire way of
classifying jobs and describing them.
So I got lucky there in a waythat now the new app is brand new.
(14:16):
There's nothing else that doesthis yet, which is super lucky.
It also meant that I had to do a lotof figuring out how we were going to
use that, the new structure in the NOC.
So I had to adapt my wayof doing the assessments.
Also, then there's a gap too inpeople going, ah, they're disoriented.
I don't know how to use the NOC anymore.
(14:38):
That's right.
You're then also providing athing that helps them navigate it.
That's right.
Exactly.
Beautiful timing.
Do you know that this, isn'tthere a saying about luck
only finds you in action?
that you have to be alreadyin motion to get that lucky.
That's right.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And I had already committed tobuilding an app with the developers,
(15:00):
because I don't have those skills.
And then like within the firstmonth we shifted because I went,
Oh, we can't do it that way.
We should do it this way.
And now that it's there, it'sfunny because I am coming
up with some resistance.
And, all my good intentions of puttingit out there, the people who have been
using the old way of using the NOC havebeen saying, we don't do it that way.
(15:23):
We don't do it this new way.
We do it this old way.
There's always the
old way.
So there's some challenges inbeing, I suppose it would be a
trailblazer in some ways, but yeah,
It's not easy.
I think I always think abouttrailblazing as hacking your way through
the jungle with a machete, right?
It's resistance and resistance andoh shoot, I went down the wrong way.
(15:43):
Yes, exactly.
I still don't feel I've gone down thewrong road, but I totally get that having
seen the machete action in real life.
Oh my.
And it's not good for everybody, right?
that's right.
You're innovating, you'redeveloping technology.
There's always going to bepeople who are like, nope, I
like the way I've always done it.
I'm comfortable there.
(16:04):
That's right.
Perfect.
You are not my customer.
That's right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I'm sure that you find that samething for you with the work that you're
doing with OTs in that, the people aredrawn to you because they want change.
Even though they say they wantchange, I'm just going to imagine
that sometimes they think they wantit, but it's really hard to change.
(16:26):
Sometimes they don'tknow what needs changing.
I find that's the challengewith my ACTivate Vitality stuff.
So often the thing they're seekingis not the thing they need.
so often I find, that, my niche isOT, or OT assistants, I support OT
assistants, I support PTs and socialworkers, but mostly it's OTs who come.
(16:48):
And generally they're business ownerswho are stuck in a pattern of some sort.
And in that stuckness, usuallythere's some self doubt.
There's some, uncertainty, there'ssome fear of failure, some overworking
perfectionism, like those aresome of the themes that are pretty
common in the people that I support.
And often the solutions they're lookingfor as achievers who want to do it
(17:10):
right is more clinical education,more certifications, more that sort
of thing, where the thing that's goingto get them feeling different about
things in unstuck is, it's actuallymore of an inside job and so I'm
really talking about that intersectionbetween personal and professional
development, where that high achieverwho's working too much is Oh, no.
Like I need something different.
(17:31):
Yes.
Trying to convince people of or helppeople identify when they're ready, that
here is actually where the potential is.
The struggle probably is, andthen the rest will work itself
out once you work on this.
Yeah,
And you would use your counseling skillsto get people to figure that out, right?
Yeah, which is tricky over theinternet with just easy if I can get
(17:53):
somebody on a call, but sometimespeople are spending a lot of money on
direct business coaching or clinicaleducation that isn't going to work.
I'm really just dealing with the placethat they're stuck and yeah, but I just,
I need to keep showing up and beingmyself, And that's all I do is, some
in the last batch of clients who justjoined in October, I think at least four
of them said they've been watching andwaiting for one, two, three and four
(18:17):
years, and just, they needed to be ready.
Yeah, absolutely.
it's just like motivational interviewing,a type of, intervention that we can
use is you have to be ready and youhave to identify the need yourself.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Anyway, you've done something I thinkI really admire because you're doing.
(18:40):
You're helping the profession byhelping OTs, and you're helping
OTs by doing, just being an OT.
Which ironically, Ican't call it OT though.
Because if the OTs that I'm supportingare outside of where I'm allowed to
practice, it's not allowed to be OT.
Oh man.
(19:02):
Do you know what?
You still use your OT skills.
I can't ever not not.
Honestly, I use my OT skills whenI'm shuffling the driveway or when
I'm talking to someone on the bus ormy OT brain doesn't ever shut off.
And so we navigate ethically throughthe systems that we are with.
I think that regulation isimportant and I'm proud to be a
(19:23):
regulated health professional.
I don't want to jeopardize that.
And if I can be serving the professionin a way that's ethical and I'm
drawing some clear lines where Ican, and keep checking in on that,
then I think I'm doing a good thing.
I think you are.
And, you never turn your OT brain off.
You use it with your kids, you use it withtheir teachers, you use it when you're
(19:47):
in the grocery store and you're, tryingto organize yourself to be efficient.
So yeah.
And it's that, when I'm sure thatwhen you set up your practice and
started moving into the, work withother therapists and that sort of
group stuff, you probably didn'treally know that it was going to work.
(20:07):
I had no idea.
Actually, I had a differentconcept in mind, right?
And I think that's a kind of thewhole thing about that hacking your
way with the machete trailblazingis that you have to take some steps
forward and Learn what's there.
Sort of like even me showing up atthat meeting of these med legal OTs and
going, I'm starting in private practice.
(20:28):
I don't even know what to do.
Like I needed to get a senseof the environment, right.
and what is needed and what peopleare looking for and what people are
paying for and then make the next bestdecision and the next best decision.
And similarly with these outof the box things that aren't
in our clinical practice, Okay.
You identified a need for, therewas a gap in this tool missing.
(20:48):
Okay, I'm going to goabout figuring this out.
Oh, the landscape changed because theresource that the primary resource.
Oh, okay, great.
Like we can adapt.
We're good at adapting, andfiguring it out as we go.
And we iterate, we evolve, we shift, wechange, and we respond by being in tune.
Yeah.
and that, like I say, that samething happened with my project is I
(21:09):
was getting feedback from people andthen I saw that things were shifting
and you just have to go with it.
Yeah.
Another thing that just came to mind.
As we're talking is, because I knowpeople are going to be listening to
this, and this is something that Iheard you say that you did, is you
surround yourself with people whocan be supportive of your goals.
(21:29):
And that might be other OTs, butthat could also be a business
center, business consultant.
if you want to develop an app, getthe people who, you've got to talk
to the techy people, because they,I know you spend a lot of money
on those things, but there's alsofunding programs out there that can
help with all of that.
And so it does it, like you say,it's that hacking your way through.
(21:53):
But if you get aligned with people,for me in Nova Scotia, we have the
Center for Women in Business andthey have business advisors, but they
also have programs for people who aredeveloping technology based businesses.
And so I squeezed in there becauseit was all online and it was a
different way of providing education.
(22:15):
And I got a wealth of informationfrom them on how to run a
business, even though I'm runninga business for 20 some odd years.
It's a different kind of business.
And, I don't know how to get to thecustomers that I need to get to.
And they set me up with people, Idon't know how to market myself.
And they set you up with somebodywho can teach you how to do that.
(22:37):
And in that case for the Center forWomen in Business, it's all free.
Yeah.
It's government funded thenthat you get this benefit.
And in addition, they probablyknow about the grants and things
that you should be applying for.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And they can give you ideasof how to, apply for grants.
And I even went to them when I saidI was looking for a tech company
(23:00):
and they gave me suggestions.
They didn't say who to use, but gaveme suggestions on how to find somebody.
And, yeah, just surroundingyourself with the right people,
I think is really important.
Yeah.
When you're trying something that'snew and different, especially
because it's not, the groundhas not been laid out for you.
And I don't know if you find thiswith yours is, one of the things that
(23:21):
I'm finding is that because I'm goingto be marketing this across Canada
is the privacy rules are slightlydifferent in each of the provinces.
Yeah, and I found, so through my contacts,not a very direct route, but, you go this
way and then turn this way and then turnthat way, and I'm using my hands here to
(23:41):
show that, I found a lawyer who's, knowsall about privacy all across Canada.
Yeah.
And so she can give me the guidelineson how to set up my privacy policies
and my standards and what's expected.
Finding all of those people can sometimesfeel like hacking, but you know, you
just gotta, you gotta hack a little bit.
(24:03):
It's, how do you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time.
Bite at a time.
Yeah.
And asking lots of questions, which canfeel vulnerable when you've got this novel
idea that sometimes people can get intoa bit of a scarcity mode that if I tell
people somebody's going to steal my idea.
And it's important to be cautious,but at the same time, you got to talk
to people to find out who the expertsare, who you need to talk to next.
(24:27):
That's right.
Yes, that's right.
And it's a balance in businessdecisions that you make.
And now I'm sounding more like a businessperson than an OT, but it's okay.
I'm both.
Well, yeah, and that's the amazing thingis I've been in business for 24 years.
That's a really long time.
(24:47):
You learned a few things.
Yeah.
And when we started, you know, 24years ago, no idea what we were doing.
you just see where the work is andgo that way and just keep doing it.
But then that's evolved into learning,wanting to fill gaps, like there is no
cognitive job demands analysis out there.
That is a gap we've beenworking on, isn't it?
(25:08):
That's right.
And that's how we know each other and,how it started that, and, again, get
that group of people together becauseit's, it, you can't do it in isolation.
So what Ruth's talking about isthat Ruth and I first met, I think
it was around five years ago, wouldyou say, or was it a little longer?
I think we, the very firstmeeting was in 2017, maybe 2018.
(25:32):
And we were met as a kind of abigger group of people who were
all seeing this gap that we are, wehave lots of tools to assess people,
and their functional abilities.
We have tools to assess physicaldemands of jobs, but when it came to
matching people with job, people'sfunctional abilities with their jobs,
(25:55):
when it came to cognitive, specificallycognitive demands of jobs, but also
as we got got a little further downthe line, we're recognizing that it's
not just a gap in cognitive demands.
Job demands, it's sensory, it'ssocial, it's behavioral, it's
psychological, it's stress tolerance,like so many things came up as we
(26:15):
go about, rating jobs in, a somewhatinconsistent way from each other, right?
But we're all doing our best withthe tools that are available.
Many of us have been using theCity of Toronto, which gives some
questions that are helpful, right?
But at the same time, nothing'sbeen standardized and we're
all doing this differently.
So a couple of different OTs might goabout seeing about a job fit between
(26:39):
a person with a disability Any, maybeit's long COVID, like COVID didn't
exist when we first met, right?
And maybe it's, but it's cognitive,like it could be mild cognitive
impairment and people are justgoing, I can't focus quite as well.
And a neuropsych assessmentisn't necessarily going to tell
the story for whether or notthis person can do their job.
(26:59):
it's these little kind of matches andmismatches with how their fatigue is,
how their migraine is, how their visionis how their pain is and how does that
impact their ability to then do the job?
But how do we have agood summary of the job?
Not just a go check it out, hearwhat the employee says the job is
and the manager says the job is.
So we ended up over time narrowing downto a group of a handful of us who've been
(27:25):
started meeting once a week to build thistool, to help us, summarize job demands.
Cognitive, behavioral, and sensoryjob demands is how we've labeled it.
it's been a big job.
it's another big job.
And again, it's that, one bit at a time.
And that's it.
Meeting weekly, and not doing awhole lot of extra work in between.
(27:49):
We do now, but, back at the beginning,we really only did the work while we were
meeting and brainstorming and, we just didit and we were very methodical about it,
and I think that's just knowing that wecan't move on to the next part until we've
done that, hash out what is the problem,then hash out what are we looking at.
And then how we assess that.
(28:11):
And we spent a lot of time on howare we going to assess these things.
And, yeah, I think it turnedout pretty well so far.
The part where we are right nowwith the COBS JDA, that's the name
of our tool that we've built, iswe're working on some research.
Can you describe where we arefor the research for those who
are listening and interested?
(28:32):
So right now we're at a stage wherewe're getting feedback from, users.
So people who would be, doing theassessment, but also people who would
be buying the assessment and peoplewho would be using it as a tool.
Stakeholders like employers or,lawyers, plus, clinicians who would
actually be doing the assessment.
(28:53):
And we've broken it into three groups.
And so each of them have differentways of reviewing the assessment
tool and then providing feedback.
and so right now we're almostdone collecting all of that
feedback from our test group.
We're just looking fora few more, clinicians.
I think to complete that first phase ofreviewing a report and, and looking at
(29:19):
the tool itself to see if it's usable.
And it's a validating it right now,and seeing if people would use it.
And if it's, if people agreewith how we've set it up,
it's the kinds of feedback thatwe're looking for right now.
And then we'll take that and do someimprovements and test it a little
(29:41):
bit more and, which is that processthat we were talking about, right?
How we've approached businesses, how we'veapproached offering different services
and, we'll put a link in the show notestoo, if people wanted to learn more about
that, but it's Cognitive demands analysis.
ca for Canada.
And we call it, actually my partnercalls it our cross country checkup
because we're from all the way fromhere in Nova Scotia, right out to BC
(30:05):
It was a lifeline throughthe lockdowns too, right?
Where we were so isolated and itwas so heartening to be working on
something that was future oriented,that was making use of this downtime.
And then, but this check in, okay, how arethings in BC? How are things in Alberta?
How are things in Ontario?
The middle provinces.
(30:25):
We don't have anybody inSaskatchewan or Manitoba.
How are things in Quebec?
But it was, yeah.
And then you and the Maritimesand sharing those experiences.
A lot of it was that building connectionin our team in the beginning too.
Yeah.
And having the lockdowns actuallygave us more opportunity to meet
and that's where we did a lot ofour work because we had the time.
(30:48):
A lot of our other worksort of slid to the side.
Absolutely.
I think there's a common theme here too ofembracing technology but that feels really
daunting to a lot of people thinking aboutbuilding technology because technology
becomes outdated, technology is outdated.
causes us headaches, but ultimately,it's a beautiful way to reach many
(31:12):
people and now that I feel like nowthat AI has exploded in the last
year or so, it's become much morein people's hands in the last year.
There's just this almost like a tsunamithat's overwhelming when we think of tech.
How do you feel about it all?
it's interesting that you ask about thatbecause what I approach the tech and the
(31:36):
technical people who do the building inthe same way that I would approach, an
OT assistant or a wheelchair technician.
I want something that does this.
And I don't care how you build it, becauseI don't know how any of that works.
But as long as it does this for me, Iwant it to go get information, bring
(31:56):
it back to me, allow me to adjustit, and then allow me to choose how
I'm going to do my reverse search.
And they did that, and and, They'd trysomething and say, nah, quite like that.
Just a little more to the left or,just like you would with anything else
as an OT, I want something, I want,a spoon that is angled just this way.
(32:22):
And, that's going right back to grassrootsOT, and somebody would build it for you.
And so that's, you're the expertin what you want to see in the end.
And that's how I approach it.
You don't have to know,
You don't have to know what the tech is.
You have to know how to find somepeople to talk about this and
go, this is what I'm looking for.
I don't even know what thatend product looks like.
let's talk about it.
(32:42):
That's right.
And I don't need to know, I've learneda lot about technology and how to ask
questions and, how to frame things,for people, and and I've learned also
about some of the background needs.
That are there, like how systemswork, we can do it this way,
but we can't do it that way.
And so I would have to adapt,how I got the information out.
(33:07):
And also working with design people, itneeds to be, designed in a way that's
friendly for people and easy to navigate.
And they don't always think about that.
some of those things,
yeah, that user interface is importantfor us because we're thinking about
the person interacting with it.
And so absolutely we can collaborateand fine tuning what we want that to be.
(33:28):
Absolutely.
So yeah, that's how I approachedit is, I wanted to learn, but
I don't have to, I'm an OT.
And I'm really good at being an OT.
So I don't need to also knowhow to do to build technology.
I also don't know how to do accounting.
That's why you seek somebodyelse out to help you.
That's right.
(33:48):
Yeah, that's right.
Because we, OTs are
such good DIYers.
That's where we go first, right?
And we need to start.
Start there, right?
Like you're not going to just startyour business and go, Oh, I'm going
to hire a giant web developer.
I'm going to we need to start playingwith some things, but there comes a
point where I remember with my planner,actually, I was showing, somebody came
(34:09):
here the other day and I showed her, Ihad bought a big coil binding machine
because I was going to make these things.
I even got really curious about.
Like binding, like stitch binding too.
Like more as a, I love todo things with my hands.
I love to create.
(34:29):
I love to make pottery andgarden and that sort of thing.
And I never had a vision of stitchbinding all of these things myself, but
I was like, I want to play with, whatdo I want this to look and feel like?
I wanted to build something with my hands.
And then somebody pointed me to Hey,it's only a couple dollars a planner.
If you wanted to print themon Amazon, I'm like, shoot.
Okay.
(34:51):
Absolutely.
Which again, goes back to surroundingyourself with people who know about this,
because there's somebody else has done it.
You're not the first person, eventhough you feel like a trailblazer.
You're not the first person to set up.
It's maybe it's that, that yourcertain activity or your certain
technology that's new and awesomeand makes you feel really great, but
(35:15):
you're not the first person to writea book or to put something on, publish
something or to work with Developers.
So there are people whoknow how to do that.
There are.
Yeah.
We don't have to do it all ourselves.
That's right.
And you talk to them about it.
And I can say a lot of this time, a lotof the time, it's somebody, I reached
(35:35):
out to you and I very first said, Ithink I'm thinking about publishing this.
what do you do?
you gave me lots of good feedbackyeah, I reached out to a couple
of other people cause you needto get different perspectives.
I've seen lots of videos about you though,in doing the that reflective practice.
Yeah.
And so in Alberta, actually, it'sin a lot of our regulatory stuff.
(35:56):
I see you come up as Ido different searches.
I go, Oh, that's right.
I know her.
So yes, that's, I'll talk for asecond about that because that's
going to be another educationprogram that I'm going to put out
there is when I did my master's, itwas a post professional master's.
I was living in Kuwait when I startedand, I wanted to learn more about
(36:19):
how to be more client centered.
And so, when you're doing amaster's, you boil something down
to a small, you get more and morefocused as you do your planning.
And what I ended up doing was a,education group with a small group of
OTs, and we used reflective practiceprinciples for, to teach ourselves
(36:42):
how to become more client centered.
And so through that, Ideveloped some ideas of how to
be a reflective practitioner.
. And then I presented at CAOT one year.
I presented at a couple of nationalconferences, and then the Alberta
Association of OTs, contacted me.
(37:03):
Boy, it was quite a long time ago now,probably 10 years ago, and, asked me
to do a couple of one day workshops.
And so I did, I developed workshops.
So again, you go, Oh, do I even knowhow to do this, but you just do it.
And you put it out thereand you get the feedback.
And then I was asked again to do,I have done a couple of those.
(37:24):
And then I did some webinars in the lastsix months or so, for a completely, not
even OTs, like another health profession.
And so what I've decided to do is tomake a sort of a one hour Take care.
Webinar on Reflective Practice forHealth Professionals, and so that I
(37:45):
take people through the history and ofreflective practice and how it came to
be, and then some different exercises forpeople to do that they can do on their
own, and then come back to the lessons.
That I'm going to put together.
So yeah, you take something that youknow about, people are interested,
Yeah.
Yeah.
(38:05):
You find a way.
I feel like that, I want to talk fora minute about the value of reflective
practice in being a practitioner.
But I think there, that, that littlepoint of, that once you know how
to, almost like a container to beable to sell products and services.
You can fill it with many things.
(38:26):
And so being able to go, Oh, okay,people want to hear about this.
Okay.
Like I know when I started talkingabout ACT, in OT places and online,
people were really curious about ACT.
Oh, okay, great.
So I, thought I would, you I was goingto do maybe a clinical course, but then
I was like, no, not a clinical course.
I ended up doing a clinical course,but, you start to just go, okay,
yeah, now I can create this.
I can create a webinar.
(38:47):
I can sell that.
I can, maybe do I want to dothat once, see how it goes.
Maybe that's somethingpeople can buy always.
And, it's very liberating to figureout how to create a product and
sell it and then be able to usethat process over and over again.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause now, now that I know about, howto set up the online program, it's easy.
(39:08):
I just need the content and that contentis just getting it out of my head.
And,
Yes, absolutely.
And it doesn't have to be fancy, right?
people want to hear you talk.
People want to engage in conversation.
People want to ask questions, right?
I wanted to just share that, I knowhere in Alberta, our Continuing
Competency Program, I really love howthey keep iterating it, and I was a
(39:33):
part of, revising it several years ago.
It's been revised since, but a corething is that we are, self directed
learners, that we need to be accountableto ourselves also as, I need to be
checking in on how my practice is,where are my gaps, where could I
learn a little bit more, where couldI do a little bit better, and that
(39:53):
there's this sense of creating asafe space to question ourselves.
And reflect on, how did that go?
That was a bit of a challenge.
Okay, I need to figure that out.
That was what was challenging about that.
What could I learn from that?
And it used to be, okay, tell us whichcompetencies you need, you're not doing
well enough at, is what it felt like.
And it's been an evolution to, okay,if we can create some Safety in
(40:16):
Reflection in Autonomous Learning, thenI can choose my learning activities.
So, is it meeting with another group ofclinicians where we can really define
what, client centered learning is?
Is it following a structurefor reflective practice?
Because truly me sitting down andjournaling about my struggles and
reflecting and discussing and seeing whichother things that I can learn from that's
(40:38):
much more powerful than signing up for theCEU course thing and just putting those
things on play to check off some boxes.
That's actually not necessarily going tocontribute to And, so I really value this
kind of spirit of reflective practicebecause it truly is at the core of getting
curious and opening up to what's there.
(41:00):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and part of that reflectivepractice process is noticing things.
So it's very much in line with, themindfulness practices that we see now.
the mindfulness has been
thousands of years,
thousands of years.
We just didn't in our Westernworld, really only started
(41:22):
becoming more mainstream inprobably the last 20, 25 years.
And even then it's really blossomedin the last 10 years or so.
And, that whole, the whole thing,and we teach this to our clients,
is that if you're feeling stressed,then, stop, take a breath.
(41:43):
What's happening to me right now?
and to do that analysis, with a clearhead, helps us, it helps our clients
to be able to get through their day.
It will help us to be ableto see where the problems are
and where we can, move ahead.
At the same time, it goes backto what you were talking about.
Sometimes we don't know whatwe don't know, so it's good
(42:04):
to check in with other people.
Yeah.
So that doing it ourselvesand being autonomous is great.
We also need to have otherpeople as sounding boards.
And you do that, that part of your,business is being a sounding board
and have, you know, setting upa safe space for OTs to do that.
(42:25):
Yeah.
and, they may be more focused towardsbusiness issues, but It could be with
anything with our clients, why isn't thisbathtub bench not working properly or,
just and just slowing our brains downbecause as you know , we're just, we
just, especially in the public system,we tend to just go on super fast.
(42:47):
You just need to get your work done.
Yeah.
And I find a private practice we,if we give ourselves the space.
Yeah.
We can slow down and, andbe more conscious of the
decisions that we're making.
Yeah.
Yes.
If we allow ourselves to.
Some people just continue that busy,busy in their private practice to more,
(43:07):
more, more, more, grow, grow, grow, grow.
I gotta, crank it out.
I've got to write 10 page notes.
Who's reading your 10 page notes?
does that serve?
what's the best way to serve?
while maintaining yourprofessional responsibilities
and doing what's effective.
But a lot of people stay in the,I've always done it this way.
I even think about something likesilly, like I remember working for
(43:29):
AHS, like we had to use black pens.
I don't think there's anything actuallyin our regulatory, anything that
says we have to use black pens, butI think I bought the black pens when
I first started my private practice.
and so it is, it's good to pauseand check in on what's necessary.
What's effective?
What's the goal?
What's serving the goal with this client?
(43:51):
What's what are the needs?
What can I revise?
What can I change?
And, and what's new out there, right?
I found I've been using, an AI thathelps me with my session notes.
And it's been a game changer.
It's the thing I've beenwishing for for 20 years.
And it's secure.
And it's You know, likeall of these things.
And I've learned how to get itto write me a progress note, a
(44:11):
progress report, which is amazing.
And yeah, but we need to, wedo need to pause and go, ah,
this part's really not working.
And, whereas a lot of people tend togo, ah, like I'm not good at that.
I don't want to even look at that.
let's That's right.
Or never take that kind of referralagain or get away from distress, get
away from places I'm not good enough.
(44:33):
Like it's good to pause and check in andgo, what could, what could change here?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think a lot of people shy awaybecause things are challenging and,
and you start to move through it andit's, it's been one, one thing in my
career over 35 years is seeing it.
(44:56):
people get stuck in just one way of doingthings and I think that's really great for
people who want to do that kind of work.
That's never been my way of being.
I like to do lots of different things.
I like to learn aboutlots of different things.
And so I don't just dovocational assessments.
(45:17):
I don't just do mental health.
I don't just do medical legal.
I want to do all of it.
You're a very typicalOT in that way, right?
Many of us were drawn to OTbecause of the variety of things.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's right.
and that's the, and taking thosechances taking those referrals that
you're not 100 percent confident with.
(45:38):
I think that is whereyour bravery comes in.
That's being just taking thatdeep breath can give you bravery.
Yes.
This is figureoutable.
Yeah.
What are my resources?
What are, where can I learn more?
What can I figure out?
(45:58):
We're OTs, and that's what we're goodat, is problem solving, is finding
out where are those barriers, assessthe situation, are the barriers,
where are the barriers coming from?
Are they coming from the person?
Are they coming from the environment?
and what part of the environment?
I see this in a lot of Facebook groups,but a lot of clinicians going, Ooh,
I just got this referral for this.
(46:18):
Where can I take a course on that?
And I often, think, no, go meetthe client and see the situation.
You may not need to take a course on that.
You may go in and go, actually, weneed to move this thing over an inch.
There's the solution, right?
Very often, solutions are practical,but you need to go in and assess the
(46:39):
situation and go, okay, in context,this person in their environment.
This element of their functionthat they're struggling with.
Yeah, I can see the answer.
It didn't need a course.
Yeah, we, you've already taken thecourse, you've learned to be an OT.
And so we need to trust ourselves,that we're going to know what to do.
(47:01):
And, I found that when I didinternational work, I was doing
volunteer work in some really needyareas, and people would ask, what are
you going to do when you get there?
And I'd say, I don't know.
And they'd say, how am Igoing to know if I can do it?
And I tell them, you know what, you'll go.
and you'll see what needs to be done andit'll be obvious to you because you're an
(47:25):
OT or because you're a physio or becauseyou're a speech therapist, you're going
to know exactly what needs to be done.
Our magic is in how weapproach that knowing.
that's where all this training comes inand it seems, I think people discount
their own value in that very often wherethat just seems easy like they're like
(47:45):
that can't be valuable, but it is, it'sour way of problem solving and approaching
situations is the unique thing.
So go do that.
Exactly.
Yeah, we can't just goin and be rash about it,
but,
but, go in with that, mindful brainand be aware of what's happening and
not think that, ahead of time, whatneeds to be done, because we always
(48:09):
have to get the feedback from theclients, from the customers, from, to
see what the environment actually is.
And it's not very client centeredto go in before anything and think
you've got it all figured out.
I know.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can I ask you my last questions?
Of course.
Yes.
what does being brave mean to you?
(48:30):
Being brave means to me is doingsomething, even if you're not 100
percent sure that you can do it.
I don't know if other people haveused that same kind of a definition.
I'm actually planning to do a compilationof all the responses and that one's
(48:51):
going to be tricky because it's actuallyvery similar response that everybody
gives slightly different variationon words, but that's, it's the truth.
Yeah.
And to me, being, brave is tostep out of the mainstream, to try
something different when you'renot sure of what's going to happen.
Like when you can't see around the corner.
(49:12):
The only way you can see around thecorner is by taking a couple steps, right?
That's right.
Yeah.
It's okay.
You can always go back.
That's beautiful.
I feel like that's thelittle soundbite right there.
That's great.
And what's something bravethat you've done recently?
Boy, it's tough because I may be a personwho's been pretty rash all my life,
(49:33):
but because I make calculated risks.
I think something brave recently that I'vedone, it just did putting together this
whole app thing is that's brave in that.
It's been a lot of work, and I can'teven overestimate the amount of work
that it's been for, getting an apptogether and an education program
(49:56):
and now it has to be marketed,which is, another hill to go over.
Hey, you're doing it right nowand it just seems like fun.
Persisting and being, so beingpersistent, I think is being,
that's what I'm doing now.
That's the BRAVE thing is just, Iknow that it's going to be okay.
It will be, however it turns outin the end, it's going to be okay.
(50:16):
You'll make it if it's notokay, it's not the end.
That's right.
How would you like to see otherOTs get a little bit more brave?
I would like to see OTs being morebrave in, as we just said, being,
being confident in their core skills,and not underestimating the value
(50:37):
that we have, as OTs in the world.
Everybody can use a little bit of OT.
Even OTs can use a little OT,
right?
I think taking on some of those nontraditional roles, looking around and
seeing what needs to be done, looking atmore vulnerable populations, because in
(51:00):
general, we the least vulnerable peopletend to get the most attention, I'm
afraid, and I've seen that in the world.
I would like to see people do moreof that, do more of working in our
own communities with vulnerablepopulations, but also in the big world.
You know, I mentioned that I havedone some volunteer work in developing
(51:21):
countries and, and in some risky areas.
Did I ever feel unsafe doing that?
No I didn't.
Because it was a methodical, calculatedthing to do, you know, and trusting
that what, like we just said, whateverhappens, it's going to be what happens.
(51:46):
And that's okay.
And you trust in your resourcefulnessfor handling what happens.
Absolutely.
What about you?
What have you done lately that's brave?
Hmm,
sorry.
Not everybody turns myown questions on me.
I did not plan for that.
(52:07):
Sorry.
No, this is good.
This is good.
Ooh, something.
Oh, it's coming up that feels brave.
I am going to be teaching, a moduleat the U of A, to the Occupational
Therapy students, the, this spring,and that feels really, I'm quite
nervous and excited at the same time.
(52:27):
Like, I'm very willing to take this on.
I agreed to it, but it feels so different.
So when I go and do a webinaronline or I write stuff.
Something an article or ablog or something like that.
There's this sort of underunderstanding that I haven't
published this anywhere formal.
I haven't, you know, that this is oneperson's take on what I see or observe
(52:48):
and I'm putting my own stamp on it.
And so there's something verydifferent about put doing this in
an academic setting where I feellike I've gotta have it right.
That feels a little bit intimidating.
And I mean, I think I don't have to haveit any more right than anywhere else.
But, what's the reason they'vebrought me in is because I am
doing some trailblazing, right?
(53:09):
So the module I'm going to be teachingis, on entrepreneurship and coaching and
it's basically about sharing what I'velearned along the way and, and being able
to, and I talked to them about this senseof, ah, I can't necessarily find evidence
for everything that I'm going to share.
And they said, no, that's whywe're bringing in subject matter
experts, people who have experiencebecause it's that experience.
And that's why we have these moduleswhere there are people out there
(53:31):
doing the things who can share.
What they've learned and what theyknow, where the resources are and where
you're not sure you say you're not sure.
And so that feels like it feelsvery brave to have said yes to that.
That's that is brave.
Academia is a tough world.
Yeah.
And I think there, the, that mylittle tiny segment of it is small
(53:54):
and low pressure, so at this point,
And if it gives you any encouragement,they asked you because you are
a subject matter expert, and youprobably know way more about this.
You certainly know way more about yourexperience than anybody else there.
About my experience, yes, it's true.
It's true.
And
hopefully that's comforting.
(54:15):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that.
So for people to reach out to you, peoplewho are interested, in, using your app
or reaching out to you more generally,how should they connect with you?
probably the easiest is to, isby email ruth at cornerstoneot.
com.
but we can put that inthe, in our website.
(54:38):
and then I can give you linksto the education program
that's is up and running.
It's just not fully launched yet.
And then the app, so that people canfind out more about it if they want to.
and can, if they look on the,education site, there will be
more things coming up there.
right now there's just that one program.
What are they called?
(54:58):
Give us the names of youreducation, site and app.
Okay.
So the education is, it's based outof Kajabi, but it's, a transferable
skills analysis online education.
Very descriptive.
Very descriptive.
Very simple.
Very to the point.
And the app that goes with that is theTransitions Vocational Assessment Service.
(55:24):
And that app really just is a way oforganizing your assessment process,
and it helps to search the NOCfor skills, but also job matches.
Thanks.
And will this be something thatwill be helpful to OTs doing this
type of work outside of Canada?
It could be eventually.
(55:45):
At this point, it's being justmarketed to Canadian OTs because
it's using the Canadian database.
However, the principles, again, goingback to the principles of the assessment
process are the same no matter whereyou are, whether you're in the UK
or Australia or the United States.
And, and so the, using the appis just one very small part.
(56:08):
And, so the education program looks athow do you actually analyze the data
and some guidelines on how to do that?
And how do you do yourinterview with your client?
And so it, it could be helpful to anybody.
Who wants to do that kind of work,there would just probably need to
be a little bit more work on theuser's end to, figure out how they're
(56:32):
going to do it with the systems thatthey have, like the Dictionary of
Occupational Titles in the United States.
They could always use the Canadian app,because it's still going to give results.
It just might not
match up exactly with how yourcountry, defines occupations.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
(56:53):
The CAOT conference thisyear is in Edmonton.
I know.
Are you coming to shareyour new things with people?
Goodness.
I should submit, shouldn't I?
I think our submissiondeadline has passed.
but maybe you could come anyways.
And you were, you handed outstickers like a mad woman at, I did.
For the BRAVE OT Podcastwhen we were there.
(57:16):
There are lots of ways to connect.
Yes.
Yes.
And there are tons of ways of connecting.
And, I might even at that pointset up a booth, In the trade show.
It feels like we were
just recently in Halifaxtogether at the last one.
It seems too early to beplanning the next one.
It may have been a little subconsciousway of my mind telling me to slow
down and not do too much right now.
(57:39):
And it's hard to know this far in advancewhat, yeah, what you're ready to, which
stage you're at and what's needed,or will you be overwhelmed with too
much and you don't want to be bringinga lot more people in just yet until
you've Figured out that next thing.
Yeah,
exactly.
Thank you.
So grateful that you cameand had this discussion.
I want to thank you for the opportunityto see and speak with you in your
(58:03):
professional, area, because this is, it'salways nice to see people do and they're.
job
Yeah, there is something about whenyou know people and you can see them
in, in flow in like truly doing thething that's they're meant to be
doing it, it is, I always feel reallyuplifted so I really appreciate that
in you as a friend and colleague.
(58:25):
And having known you, I knewthat this was going to be easy.
So it wasn't that brave to do it.
No, Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
totally.
Thank you.
Thank you, the listener, forlistening to The BRAVE OT Podcast.
I would love to hear how Related to thisepisode, if there was anything interesting
(58:46):
or great takeaways, please share it onsocial media, subscribe, give us a review.
These things go a long way to reaching thepeople who need to hear these messages.
reach out to Ruth, if you haveany questions about the things
she's talked about, her links arein the show notes so that you can
learn more about the TransitionsVocational Assessment Service and app.
(59:10):
I'll also include a link to ourCoBS-JDA website, so the Cognitive
Behavioral and Sensory Job DemandsAnalysis tool that we've built.
We're looking for participantsto test and review the
assessment outputs at this point.
We'd love to have you if you're aCanadian OT And last but not least, the
(59:31):
ACTivate Vitality program is opening up inFebruary for our next cohort to join us.
So this is a community of OTbusiness owners who support each
other, collaborate, co conspire, coregulate, and create a sense of not
being so alone in private practice.
(59:51):
We often feel really siloed and on ourown, and we can really get in our heads.
So the ACTivate Vitality community reallysupports us in building those core skills
from acceptance and commitment therapyto be more grounded and mindful in our
practices, in our work, in our lives.
And we create community aroundthis so that we can move forward in
(01:00:12):
blazing some trails and doing thethings that really matter, building
businesses that create that sense offlow and satisfaction in our lives.
So I will include a linkto book a call with me.
That's the process for gettinginto the ACTivate Vitality
program is booking a clarity call.
As always, be BRAVE, OTs.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!