Ep. 42: Navigating Competition and Collaboration as OT Copywriters with Guests, Jenny Gill and Krista Frahm

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When I like found Jenny, I,part of me was like, oh no,

(00:03):
there's already another OT here.
I need to kibosh this whole thing.
Like she's got the corner on themarket, totally catastrophizing.
And then like on the flip side, I waslike, oh, there's proof that an OT
can do this and this is going to work.
In this episode, you'll hear me have agreat conversation with Jenny and Krista.
They're both occupational therapists, turncopywriters and they discuss the dynamics

(00:25):
of their professional relationship andthe balance between collaboration and
competition in this very small niche.
It could really be easy to fall into this.
Scarcity mindset, but they've workedreally intentionally to maintain a good
relationship that brings much abundance.
they explore their individual journeysin the field, the importance of finding

(00:48):
one's niche and the challenges thatthey faced when their paths intersected.
The conversation delves into dealing withprofessional insecurities, the role of AI
in copywriting and practical advice formarketing occupational therapy services.
You will gain insights into thevalue of collaboration, the nuances
of creating effective marketingstrategies, and the necessity of

(01:11):
being courageous in your business.
both Krista and Jenny have put togethera free resource for you, and I'm going
to drop that in our new Facebook group.
there's a new Facebook groupspecifically for The BRAVE OT Podcast,
and it's called :The BRAVE OT Podcast- Let's Discuss", so jump in there.
We're gonna have some conversations.

(01:31):
We can keep that conversation going.
Now, before we get into theepisode, I wanna take a quick
moment to talk about Jane, aclinic management software and EMR.
a clinic owner or practitioner, yourmain priority should be caring for your
clients, not worrying about EMR costs.
That's why Jane has come up with the newbalance plan, which includes the essential

(01:52):
features you need to run your clinicwithout all of the extra fluff you don't.
With the balance plan, you'll getreally helpful features, like one-on-one
telehealth, email appointment reminders,and unlimited customer support.
And I have to admit, I really enjoycalling the customer support people.
They're really great to talk to.
The Balance Plan is a great fit fornew growing practitioners who are

(02:13):
booking up to 20 appointments a month.
And the best part is thatJane pays for itself with the
cost of just one appointment.
Head over to Jane.app/pricingto check out their plans.
Starting at $39 a month inthe us, $54 a month in Canada.
And if you're ready to get started,don't forget to use my Code
Vitality at signup for a one monthgrace period on your new account.

(02:36):
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.

(02:58):
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
Jenny and Krista, I'm reallyexcited that you guys reached out.
I adore you both and we have lotsof online interactions, but I was

(03:22):
really excited when you reachedout with a particular mission.
Does one of you care to explainwhat the intention of this
particular podcast episode is?
this is Krista, and for those ofyou listening audio only and can't
see our faces, I guess it almosthas to start with who we are.
We're both copywriters, we're bothoccupational therapists, and we're both

(03:44):
working within the same pool of clients.
And we've been, we've known each otherand both been working for, let's see, over
four years now, like at least that long.
And as anybody who has a businessknows, it's hard to navigate the waters
of competition and collaboration and,trying to set yourself apart while

(04:07):
not stepping on other people's toes.
And so really our goal was to sharehow we have navigated that over time
and hopefully help inspire otherclinicians to e embrace more of that
abundance and collaboration instead ofreally worrying about, you know, fear

(04:28):
of copying or copying someone else or.
not wanting to be in community withother people doing similar things,
but Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
Go ahead, Jenny.
Did you have something to add to that?
Yeah, what I would add is apart of the conversation came
out of a separate conversation.
Somebody you had asked me, what issomething that you're really proud that
you've accomplished in your business?

(04:51):
And what immediately came to mind was, myrelationship with Krista and saying I'm
really proud of what we've achieved andthe journey that it took to get there.
And I could look back and reflect on,there was a version of me before my
business and, working as an occupationaltherapist, would, I would've never
been able to do that and to see thatgrowth in such a tangible area and

(05:14):
say, yeah, I'm really proud of thisrelationship and the steps and the, like,
missteps along the way to achieve it.
But it was something that was difficult.
Like it wasn't just automatic or easyand that was why I was proud of it.
And so that, that's another reason wewanna kind of get, come on and share
and say, this is something special.
let's talk about it.

(05:36):
That is fantastic.
Okay.
We are going to get into all of thoselayers and 'cause there's so many
things in there about the relationshipand that mindset of competition versus
collaboration and what our mindsnaturally do when we're trying to
figure it out and doing something newand how you've navigated that because

(05:58):
there are some, like a lot of overlapin your journeys and at the same time
you guys do some slightly different,have slightly different focuses now.
so maybe let's get into alittle bit more introducing, of.
Who you are, what you do.
and we'll
start with you this time, Jenny.
All right.
So I'm an occupational therapist turnedcopywriter, and I actually began about

(06:21):
five years ago and shifted into, I'm gonnawrite copy and landed into writing copy
for, occupational therapy business owners.
sticking with kind of my professionand kind of using the skills and
the knowledge that I had to write.
So copywriting is writing to get people totake action, or to build a relationship.

(06:42):
and it essentially is the writingof marketing, but it tends
to be so much more than that.
And especially in, therapy land wherewe really do love building relationships
and That's the beginning of the story.
now I would expand to say Ispecialize in writing websites.
And so that might come uplater in the conversation when
we talk about diversifying.

(07:02):
So it's like general copywritingand then picking a specialty.
So then I'll let Krista introduce herself.
Perfect.
That's
great.
And you helped me with, that we workedtogether in 2020, maybe it was 2021.
but in those early days where we wereboth new on the scene and you helped me
with my website writing and some emailsand some themes and like I had come up

(07:26):
with an ideal client kind of profile,but then what was I gonna do with that?
It was Hannah and you took my Hannahand turned that into all sorts
of cool stuff that I couldn't, Ididn't know how to write and it
was so helpful to get me rolling.
So I appreciate you.
Oh, awesome.
Okay, Krista, your turn.

(07:47):
Tell
us more about you.
Yes.
I have a very similar journey,which is most of the overlap.
I also was an occupational or aman occupational therapist, and then
I transitioned into copywriting.
And oddly enough, how we met was we bothtook the same first copywriting course and
found each other inside that community.

(08:08):
what are the chances two OTsshow up in a copywriting course?
It was a mixed feelings for me.
When I like found Jenny, I,part of me was like, oh no,
there's already another OT here.
There's I need to kibosh this whole thing.
Like she's got the corner on themarket, totally catastrophizing.
And then like on the flip side, I waslike, oh, there's proof that like an OT

(08:29):
can do this and this is going to work.
So those were like competingthoughts inside my head.
Understandable.
Yeah, I think I, I think I started likemaybe six months or so after Jenny did.
So I've just, I've been officiallycopywriting a little bit less time, but
actually found copywriting because Iwas writing all of the marketing for a

(08:50):
nonprofit school, and that's how I endedup even realizing that copywriting was a
thing that, that people would like, wouldpay for instead of just doing it for free.
Yeah.
And now what is your focus?
And now I've really transitioned moreinto the launch strategy, email marketing
and sales funnels side of things.

(09:12):
I generally will refer websites overto Jenny over to another copywriter
because I just, I haven't done them in.
Probably two years since I'vewritten a website and they're
just very different skill sets.
it's a lot like traditional clinicaltherapy where you start out as a
generalist and then as you refineyour skills, ideally you would be

(09:35):
able to just see more and more ofthat specific population or whatever
it is that you're specializing into.
And because I never got to do thatclinically, 'cause I worked rural
healthcare, I'm so excited to be ableto actually specialize the, in this like
version of my career now because I dolove specializing and just getting really

(09:56):
good at a smaller scope of work insteadof being the Jack or Jill of all trades.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's great.
And you've also helped me with alot of my copywriting as well, and,
you and I met in person in Florida,At the OT Entrepreneur Summit.
And Jenny was there too.
We met in person too.
But Jenny and I had alreadyknown each other from, from

(10:19):
our previous interactions.
And then you and I met there andwe you joined ACTivate Vitality and
we did some service exchange too.
And so that's been super helpful forme too, because you've been inside
my program and it's helpful for youto, tell others what the magic is in
there, that I have trouble to others.
So you can't see it.
I feel it.
I can't describe it.
And so that's been a helpfulongoing relationship too.

(10:41):
I'm grateful for you.
And the
hardest copy that anybody willwrite, like the hardest marketing
materials is your own marketing.
It's, It's ridiculously hard towrite about your own self, your
own program, your services, it.
It's just really hard.
yeah,
totally.
Now, did you two, choose to differentiatebased on differentiating from each other

(11:04):
or was it a more of a natural evolutionthat your interest just took you in a
couple slightly different directions?
That's a great question and itwas a key part of our journey.
so when we met, we werelike at similar stages.
Like I was writing maybe a littlebit before Krista, and, but we
were not to the stage yet wherewe had really differentiated.

(11:27):
And I think it's a littlebit like OT, like you said.
Like we, we start as generalistand then you figure out where your
interests are and it's a similarpath almost for copywriting.
So when we met, we were both in that very,like trying out different things and we
didn't have that differentiation and.
That was a challenge because I thinkduring that stage we were stepping

(11:50):
on each other's toes a little bitmore, but being conscious that
we did wanna build relationships.
that was tricky and I rememberthinking, 'cause we were going back
over ideas and like we didn't havesomething specific to be separate for.
And I remember thinking, we'retriggering each other right now.
Like we could be open about that.
Which I think was very special andunique, of not just ignoring it,

(12:12):
but like to give it a voice and say,oh, this is where we are right now.
And it's hard.
we have to figure out how to navigate it.
'cause we don't know.
And I remember thinking in thattime of we just have to be patient.
Like we have to give each othera chance to grow up in, in
some ways, not grow up like.
But grow into our business, grow intothis identity that we're working on.

(12:36):
And so at that point we could actuallyshare maybe a little bit less about
what we were doing or thinkingbecause we had to give each other
that space to find it and to put wordsto that and do it and implement it.
And then it was a relief when we eachkind of settled into a different area.
But we knew that it was organic.
It was not necessarily Krista has pickedlaunch, I need to pick something else.

(12:59):
It was, we gave each other spaceto do that independently and
then we kind of landed on our ownanswers and that was beautiful.
and then our relationship couldshift again, and then we could refer.
'cause when you know what your areaof specialty is, you and what somebody
else's is, that's when referrals becomemuch more powerful of like, oh, I know

(13:20):
somebody who's better at that than me.
You know, go over there and it's a goodfeeling versus a competitive feeling.
Yeah, that's it.
We can't, there is plentyof work to go around.
and, but at the same time when you'rebuilding a business, you're still
trying to be seen and get a bit of it.
And so it can feel more scarce inthose times, which can feed those kind

(13:43):
of ego driven, Ooh, this can't be myfriend, this is my foe sort of thing.
But at the same time, you guys havethis natural, like both of you have
a personality that is naturallycollaborative and naturally not
one to overpower anybody else.
That there's a gentle kind,supportiveness to the way you
do all things in my observation.

(14:05):
and so I like that you
come in with those personalitiesthat help fuel that intentionality.
But there's something in there too.
'cause I wanna talk more about therelationship, but I really like
that, kind of characterizationof, when we're getting started, we
haven't figured it all out, right?
Of course not, right?
It's that we need to go take action,try things, experiment, see what

(14:30):
works, see what feels good, seewhat sells, see what feels aligned.
And in that journeywe're creating, a niche.
We're creating an identity for ourbusiness and so many OTs that we all
encounter think we've gotta have thatwhole thing nailed before we start.
and
Like the idea of starting with a veryspecific $5,000 website to get you

(14:55):
started before you've even had a client.
I generally advise against it.
What's your take?
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
And I think early on we may havesaid no, you need a copywriter,
like to help you write your website.
But as as I've gained more experienceand I think we've, Jenny and I have had
conversations about it too, we do saydo the bare minimum or just start first

(15:19):
and then build your website later afteryou figure out like exactly where you
are going because where am I and wheredo I fit in this world of business?
And yeah.
Because a lot of times what we think we'regonna do is not what we end up doing.
I originally thought Iwill just write blogs.
And that was the onlything I was going to write.
I was like, oh, I won't even worry aboutlearning all these other forms of copy.

(15:41):
Like I will just write blogs for people.
And now I don't accept, it's a rarecircumstance if I am writing a blog
for somebody, it has to be within agreater package and for a business that I
already know a lot about because I just,they're not the most fun thing to write.
and some people probably love them,but it's good that you didn't hang

(16:02):
your hat all on that in the beginning.
And it was just a bunch in developingadvertising and marketing for all of that.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
I would say that, oh, sorry.
I was, I would say the exactsame thing of you do figure out.
A lot, whether it's your marketingor anything about your brand or how
you're gonna do processes by doing, andso you just start with what's there.

(16:27):
it doesn't always meanyou don't have a website.
Maybe you just have a simple one.
But it's the idea of, I'mgonna put this up and I know
that I am going to improve it.
I'm not just, it, there's a mindsetshift of, okay, I'm not gonna check this
off the list and it's done for the nextfive years of, I know it's not perfect.
I put it up.
I mean, it could be asales page or anything.
I put it up there, I'm gonna getfeedback, I'm gonna grow and I'm,

(16:49):
I know that I'm gonna improveit in whatever the timeframe is.
It.
It's a different way of working.
I think.
We love the, I nailed it and it's done.
You know, like the a plus paper,I'm done with that project.
It's done, but it doesn'ttend to work that way if we've
gone along and figured it out.
Yeah.
I would, I would say that, I alsoremember when you were talking
about finding our way and then.

(17:12):
That, that for a while we had to stay moreseparate and Jenny had talked about, like
we, we almost had to, I think I remember,like I was not on your email list.
I would not go to your website becauseI like, did not want to see what you
had written or be influenced by it.
And I think I even didn'tfollow your social media.

(17:32):
I was trying to just be as like,separate as possible because then
I could figure out where I wantedto go without having everything you
did or said influenced my direction.
Because it's hard when you're new andyou're just trying to make it work
and you're so easily influenced by.
By other people.
Yeah.
And then like a sponge,
right?
there's
that
social learning that it's like, Oh, okay.

(17:54):
It just, it comes in and you mighteven go to type, and I've seen
this happen with a few therapiststoo that are hearing each other.
Then they end up using some of the samewords and the other person goes, oh,
wait a minute, did you just copy me?
and I felt that way too.
I've seen my words elsewhere andI went, oh no, we're just, we're
all going in these same circles.
Nobody's intending to copy anybody.
But I appreciate the intentionalityof actually insulating yourself

(18:16):
from, accidentally doing it.
Yeah.
'cause it felt like itcould be so easily done.
And I even be, before I knew Jennyvery well and more about her journey,
I ended up in the same like pond avery small pond, and realized that
I was like pitching all the peoplethat she had been working with.

(18:37):
And I was like.
Wow, how?
How did I even get here?
But I think it's just because we dohave similar personalities, similar
lifestyles, similar backgrounds.
even to the point where we've both workedin critical access hospitals, which a lot
of people don't even know what those are.
And I'm like, what are the odds of this?
And so I had to really be like, okay,figure out what that group was and then

(18:58):
step out and go find a different group.
Because I was like, this is ater, this is bad pond of fishing.
This is not where I need to be.
You can't have twosharks in the same pond.
Yeah.
It was awkward.
And that would be awkward.
and I've had that experience too,where somebody's interviewing different
coaches and they've already talked to soand so and they're here talking to me.

(19:22):
And my mind always goes to, well, Ireally want them to find the right fit.
And truly if that other coach is whatthey need, like maybe we should just
maybe say, Hey, thanks this was a niceconversation, but actually go over there.
'cause if it's not the right fit,we're both gonna be frustrated.
You know, it's not about justgetting the most clients, it's
about, yeah, finding that.

(19:44):
But it can feel awkward like incompetition, in a place where
you don't wanna feel competitive.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It's totally true.
And I think it just, it takes time.
And I think that's where in the midstof being separate or whatever, we really
did have genuine, good relationship andto lean into that and then begin to say.

(20:05):
It was through, I mean, so we sharedthat copywriting program and one
of the really good benefits wasthis idea of collaboration and
getting away from scarcity mindsetwas like a part of the program.
And I remember, because it doesalign with me personally, I
said, I want to embody that.
that sounds great, but it's very differentwhen you have to put it into action.

(20:26):
And you're like, oh, like I knowthat there's somebody new who's
talented and you know, they willget clients and that's okay.
And to take steps of okay, so ifthat's, if I wanna be the person
who collaborates, how do I do that?
And I really benefited from thatprogram and people talking about
how they acknowledged that jealousywould come up or that they would get

(20:48):
triggered and then they laid out thepath of okay, what did I think instead?
And that really helpedme, in that time okay.
All, you know, the tide rises all boats.
If, yeah, if occupational therapistsdon't know about copywriting, and I'm
the only one who could ever possiblytell them, that's gonna take a long time.
But if we have more people talkingabout copywriting, it validates

(21:11):
what I says and it's anotherperson who's talking about it.
And I think of OT, you know, we getso frustrated, nobody knows what we're
gonna do, but if your competition orwhatever you wanna call them is talking
about the same thing, that's more peoplewho are understanding what you do.
Mm-hmm.
Um, more referrals and just again,reminding yourself like there is more

(21:31):
than enough to go around and exactlywhat you said, like it comes down to fit.
It's not always about being better than,or, achieving more or your personality.
Like it's not personal.
there, there just is differentversions and I want people to find.
What's the right fit for them, whetherit's someone more expensive, less
expensive, more, you know, experienced orhas this other, service that they offer.

(21:55):
Just really broadening your mind, andI think you have to actively remind
yourself of that in those hard momentsof oh no, I can't possibly write every
single private practice website out there.
that's ridiculous when you thinkabout it and actively refeeding
those different thoughts.
So true.
That is so true.
Yes.

(22:15):
There's yeah, that, that dualityof there being so much out there
and yet you don't have it all yet.
And can we actually, amplify that andboth of us have a lot of work if we're
both out there putting that message out.
I think that's really smart andDescribing that, bit about how
the insecurities do come up andneeding to actively practice it.

(22:40):
Now, you don't have to share, butit would, I would be very curious
if every, anybody has a, eitherof you have a specific example of
a moment when you went, oh, no.
Like just that sinking, andthen how did you handle it?
Is it, do you have any specific examples?
I think we both do,
and we've talked about them sincethen, which is, it's a cool one.

(23:01):
Sure.
Yeah.
I'll let you go first, Krista,and then I can share mine.
I feel like I would know what yours wasbetter than mine, but I do remember I
was working ongoing with a client anddoing quite a bit of work together.
And then that client mentioned thatthey hired Jenny to write their website.

(23:22):
And I had a moment ofwhat, but you're my client.
And I had to really check myselfto be like, okay, but do you
really wanna write the website?
Do you really think you're thebest person for the website?
Or do you think where you'reworking is your zone of genius?
And it does make complete and perfectsense to bring Jenny on to do the website.

(23:43):
And but the initialreaction, gut reaction.
Was that I wasn't good enough.
They didn't trust me, just all the,like, all the feelings about it.
And then, I had to kind of step away fromthose and be like, but that's not even the
copy that you're trying to write more of.
that's not the direction you'reheading, so why are you getting

(24:04):
a little wigged out about it?
it didn't even make sense when Iactually stepped back and looked
at it, you know, inside myself.
So I'm hearing that
you felt the feels And then optedin that moment to step back to gain
perspective and then re-approach withkind of some like co cognitive reframing,

(24:25):
I suppose that would be like, okay,realistically, here's another take on it.
and that, that felt true to you.
And this wise person named CarlynNeek taught me how to do these things.
What unsolicited plug.
But it's true, I think before yourprogram, just as little aside, I did

(24:47):
not have the abilities and the skillsas much to really pause and look at it
from that more like outside perspectiveand analyze and be does this make sense?
It was more reactive.
that's and a staying
in freak out mode a littlelonger sort of thing.
Yes.
it's not that those things don't stillcome up, but now you know, okay, this
doesn't have to define how it all is.

(25:07):
Right.
I can, yeah.
Take, you don't have to stayspiraling on it for as long until
the merry-go-round shoots you off.
Yeah,
that's great.
Jenny, do you have a specific example?
Yeah.
Now I'm curious if it's the oneKrista is thinking of, but, so
the example that comes to mind is.

(25:27):
Earlier in the process, Kristacame out with a course that
was website in a weekend.
and so this was before she'dreally leaned hard into sales page.
And, but it overlapped intokind of my area and I had a
course idea in mind as well.
and so she sent me her idea and said, I'dlike feedback on this course I'm creating.

(25:49):
And so again, youimmediately have feels of
yeah,
oh no.
Like she beat me and she did.
And I think that there is a element of.
When you take action andyou're the first one to do it.
that's how ideas work.
and it makes sense.
Like she was working with clientsand this is the problem and

(26:10):
this was the logical solution.
So you come to the same answerswhen you're working with similar
clients doing similar things.
And so again, feelings of oh no,she beat me to it and this is
where it got got interesting.
I was like, what am I gonna do?
So I'm like looking at the emailand I'm like, do I open it?
do I open the resourceand provide the feedback?

(26:31):
Because it was very conflicting as ahelper and somebody who understood, I was
like, I can provide a really good advice.
I could open this and do that.
that felt like the right answer.
But then it also felt like the wronganswer and I had to think about it.
And I said no.
Knowing how ideas work, if I everwanted to create a course in the
future, I would be worried that I'dbe copying what she's already done.

(26:54):
Like I don't wanna close that.
Path for myself.
And so I sent her a message and I said,I would love to provide you feedback,
but honestly, I don't think I can.
And so I did not openyour document at all.
It is safe and sound.
Your ideas are safe with you,and my ideas are safe with me.
And I don't know, it waslike the harder option.

(27:15):
Like it felt easier just togive the feedback and move on.
Yeah.
But at the end, I'mstill glad with You chose
not to read it.
You just, I chose not,not to read it, let, but I
communicated.
I didn't just ignore it.
I just told her honestlywhy I couldn't do it.
and the really cool thing isthat she accepted that, like,
oh yeah, that makes sense.
We just move forward.

(27:35):
That is so smart.
And I love that you chose therelationship, like the communication
in the relationship that honoringthat, hey, what's most important here?
I need to maintain theintegrity of my own idea.
'cause that's being evolving.
And, also honor and respect thisrelationship and communicate that,
hey, this doesn't make sense.
And similar to Krista where shedidn't follow your stuff 'cause

(27:57):
she didn't wanna absorb that.
I really love
that.
Mm-hmm.
And then when she responded inthat way, it was, it opened my
eyes to like the bigger situation.
'cause I had really been like head down.
We had, we talked about the problemtogether where therapists are starting
up and they just, they can't afforda website, but they don't really

(28:18):
know what to do and yada, yada, yada.
We talked about the problem andthen at some point I just like.
Dove in and started creating theresource and it It hadn't fully, it
hadn't emerged in my mind like how thatmay play out with Jenny's business.
And so when she responded Iwas like, oh, that makes sense.
Like why?
Why would I have you look throughall of this and then you're also

(28:41):
potentially creating something similar.
I was like, yeah, that doesn't make sense.
But we get so focused and head down onwhat we're doing that sometimes that
other perspective is we forget that.
I know was super and there wasan super proud of her for that.
Totally.
And there was an efficiency on yourpart too, going, you know what, I've
got an idea, I'm gonna run with it.
Like I could create this fairly quickly.

(29:01):
I don't need to ponderthis for a long time.
you were taking action and that'sreally That's really brave.
And then Yeah.
In that momentum.
Oh, all Yeah, that, that makes sense.
And I remember when you were doingthat, 'cause I think that's where, yeah,
that's where you guys started to go.
Okay.
Like you were actually not reallyloving websites, I think, right?
And creating this course was a wayof going, Hey, you want a website?

(29:23):
Go to Jenny, or go to my starter course.
that's get you your kind of quickfirst one in a weekend and as a way
of actually removing yourself from it.
It was a DIY sort of thing,not a done for you thing.
And so I'm hearing too thoseseeds of, okay, maybe that's where
we're separating a little bit.
Jenny's doing more websitey stuff.
I'm doing more of these other things.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that wasthe one I was thinking of.

(29:45):
Yeah.
Oh, it was, yeah.
Example of how you like get startedand sometimes it doesn't lead
anywhere but it, and it's okay.
And I was totally, that's whereit's like when you have a good
relationship, it's like genuine lens.
I think it's awesome that you createdthis and I admire, like you took action,
but at the same time it's oh, I'm justnot the right person to give feedback.
And
yeah.
That's really cool.

(30:06):
I have a question for you experts.
on the way OTs, Pitch their services.
What I see happening a lot thatI, my opinion is it's not the most
effective, but I'd like your opinionis the, Hey, here's how awesome
occupational therapy is, and all ofthe awesomeness of all of the million

(30:28):
things occupational therapy can do,and I can help you with many things.
And that doesn't work a lot.
But there, you can appreciatea person starting out.
They don't necessarily have a niche yet.
but that piece of, am I marketingoccupational therapy or am I
marketing the services I can provide?

(30:49):
What's your, what do youhave to say about that?
We've had so manyconversations about this.
And yeah, you're spot on with that.
I think even when I'm like in a coachingrole, that's something that I say to
people all the time, I'm like, stoptrying to sell occupational therapy.
they want the outcome, they want thebenefits, they want the solution.

(31:13):
they don't want occupational therapy,even though we love it and we know
it's powerful and we just inherentlyknow it leads to all those outcomes.
But they're always trying tosell OT instead of the outcome.
I see it in sales funnels a lot andsales pages and I'm sure that Jenny
also battles that with websites.

(31:35):
Yeah, it totally true.
And one of benefits of.
Like Kristen and I can talk throughthese, some of these things that are so
specific, there's not very many peoplewho you can come to these problems with.
and we've come to the same solution.
It's like when you're trying to sellall of copywriting, that could be any
number of things, but when you getdown to what it is as an individual,

(31:55):
that's where you can really start movingpeople forward in the sales process.
for OT it's yeah, you canexplain what OT is like.
There's the elevator pitch for OT.
People don't wanna make it toospecific, but you gotta like
totally remove yourself from that.
When you are networking at a conferenceor at your local community event, your

(32:17):
elevator pitch needs to be about whatyour practice does and the problems there.
And you don't wanna lead with explaining.
The elevator pitch for OT becauseit's not gonna lead them back to
whatever it is that you offer.
And so I think we really justneed to separate the two.
there is a place to promote OT asa profession and talk about it.
OT month is great, if you're gonna doyour marketing, like maybe you do some

(32:41):
posts on what is OT during that time.
But it's a separate bucket in yourmind of okay, how do I sell my business
and the problems and solutions.
And it's just way easier.
Like you can go broad, it can be done,especially when you're first starting, but
it is so much easier when you get specificand come up with specific problems and

(33:04):
solutions, relate it to your business.
It you'll just make your life easier.
So if we were to think about somebodywho has, let's say they've specialized
in postpartum care, So should theirwebsite say, I'm an occupational
therapist who practices postpartum careand here are the things I can offer.

(33:28):
if we're thinking about the websiteor an introduction or something like
that, like what should they lead with?
They should probably lead with.
Whoever their person is to start with.
I think you, you can wrap all of theseideas in, so like you can introduce
yourself, I'm an occupational therapistwho, and then really position it as who

(33:49):
does what and they can grasp onto that.
So I think our profession does giveus a certain amount of credibility
and so that's where you're gonnainsert it of it adds credibility.
I have a degree, I'm trained inthis, but always coming back to these
are the people that I best serve.
These are how I can help you and makesure that is maybe most prominent.

(34:12):
So it, it's not either or, butit's just understanding what is
the purpose of saying you're an OT.
and you could incorporate thatin there as long as you don't
make it the main point, right?
this is what OT does for you.
Like just positioning it thatway makes a huge difference.
But yeah, a lot of ourmarketing is in layers, right?

(34:32):
we wanna do everything again withone thing, but we can layer it in
different spots and it's more abouthow much you talk about something
and what is the main focus.
Yeah.
I feel like I could see your SEO wheelsturning as well over there, Jenny, as
you were trying to decide how to answer.
There's like the messaging part, and thenthere's SEO or search engine optimization

(34:57):
so that people actually find your websitewhen they are searching for things.
And so that can sometimes conflict.
And then that's where you do wanna haveoccupational therapy in there somewhere,
if that's what they're looking for.
But it does, it gets tricky.
That's.
That's why we do what we do is
'cause there's, it really is,
yeah.
Lots of layers and lots of nuances.

(35:18):
Whereas in a sales page If that's lesslikely to be something that somebody
Googles for and then just finds,usually they find you on social media
or YouTube channel and they go along thejourney and then get to the sales page.
So they're already a little bit moreeducated when they get to the sales page.
So you put the pieces togetherdifferently because I'm not trying to
get Google to bring you straight there,

(35:40):
Right.
Whereas on a website, you have to thinkof what are they searching for and then
how can I get them here based on that?
So speaking of our, tools, the AI boom,everybody thinks that them in chat GBT
are great copywriters now, actually, Idon't think everybody thinks that, but
that was certainly the initial oh wow, Ican get it to write so much copy for me.

(36:02):
But it often falls a little bit shortunless you're really good at that and
really have nailed a lot of things.
how has that affected you guys and,'cause I know initially it was like a,
AI can't do what I do, but now I see moreof a, okay, how do I embrace AI in a way
to make this effective and efficient?

(36:23):
It is changing
so fast.
So what we answer today will probablybe different by the time this podcast
launches and then three monthslater it'll be completely different.
'cause Yeah, initially.
There was like a pullback and peoplewere thinking, I don't have to invest
in copy and they were doing it allthemselves, but then we all very quickly

(36:44):
realized like that was not very good.
Like the output was not great,but it has come so far since then
that it is getting a lot better.
So it, it's a tool and I still, what Isee with, with therapists, especially
newer, is that they are going to ChatGPTfirst and like really trying that

(37:04):
route, but if they don't put enough oftheir own thoughts and own perspectives
in, then they're getting the samekind of outputs as everybody else is.
And then that feeling of copyingand oh, they're saying the same
thing I am, they stole my post.
There's a lot more of that becauseit's all just generic out of ChatGPT

(37:25):
it's telling us all the same things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially if you haven'treally put in a lot of your own
information and perspectives, so
There
may or may not be something comingsoon from my business to help
support therapists in this area.
Absolutely.
that's it.
If we can, there's great ways to, yeah.

(37:46):
Create chat box can be a lead magnetor create different ways of setting
it up to do a better job for us.
It doesn't replace somebody doing atop to bottom campaign with strategy
and all of that, but, yeah, beingable to have a tool to do a better job
is a great idea, however that looks.
And you have to know what the output issupposed to look like and feel like, so

(38:08):
that you can, you can even go to ChatGPTand say make a sensory diet for my kid.
And it'll make something, butyou don't know if that's right
or wrong or if it's effective.
You
have to understand like what the outputis and what good copy is and what, like
Jenny was saying, like good websitestructure and what is the goal of this?
And just so many things in orderto know if it's good copy or not.

(38:29):
Just 'cause it sounds fancywhen it comes out doesn't mean
that it's gonna be effective
for sure.
Jenny, how has AI impacted things for you?
It does impact, I think it, there,there's good and there's bad.
So like from a work perspective,like I'm not gonna get as many
maybe smaller projects that maybepeople would have offloaded before.

(38:51):
Kind of like those lower level things.
so things that ChatGPT is pretty goodat is like social media posts and like
those very, practical emails, likeresponses that maybe would be templates
or whatever before that you get hired.
ChatGPT is really good atwriting emails like that.
So work like that is, is basically gone.
I think one of the big benefits is itcan bridge that gap, especially for entry

(39:18):
business owners who are getting started.
It probably can write better copythan what they would originally
come up with just off their head.
And they're probably not buying myservices for the most part anyway.
'cause money is a factor in that point.
and so I think there is huge wins thereof can it help business owners succeed
earlier and then maybe be ready to investin upgrading earlier That's possible.

(39:44):
I think it's bridging thegap, but then there's still
room for a copywriter who can
really drill down into what it isthat makes you unique and what is your
perspective and like really helpingsomebody hone that because that is what
you're not gonna get from an output.
you have to as a business owner, maybewith some guidance of a copywriter

(40:04):
or coach or whoever that guidance isof get to that level of perspective.
And then once you get there,maybe you could uplevel again
and use ChatGPT more effectively.
But I think there's alwaysroom for human writing.
I think you can tell the difference.
You can tell the difference when somebodywrites with passion or excitement or
they really believe in their offer.
Like you can feel that in writing.

(40:27):
And I don't think that ChatGPT willever be able to duplicate that.
So for like really important things,I think there's always gonna be
room for the higher level and theemotional aspect of a copywriter
who really cares and works, worksclosely with a client to achieve that.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And it still takes a lot of time,'cause I've had people say why

(40:48):
won't they just use chat JPT?
And I was like, the people I work withare extremely busy business owners.
Like usually they have a practiceand then they also have an
online branch to their business.
And the reason they're reaching outto me is because they're maxed out
and they, so they don't really wannasit down with ChatGPT and go through

(41:08):
enough like renditions and feedback andchanges and to then put it together on
a sales page and know that structure is.
The right way to go.
Like they just, they don't wannado it 'cause they're maxed out
and they have better things to do.
It's so true.
I've really wanted to use my podcastto be my long form content that

(41:30):
I enjoy making and then use AI toturn that into short form content.
And that seems like reallyreasonable and should be easy.
It's not, it's really not.
Or I'll get reams of stuff that isn'tquite right and then where do I put that?
And then I did that already a couplemonths ago and there's another
chart somewhere with a whole bunchof ideas that kind of miss the mark

(41:53):
and I can't even find one to use.
They all need some refining and I love theidea, but I'm finding It's, there's just,
yeah, it's just often misses and I stillneed somebody to help me do those things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so hard when it misses to figureout like, why does it miss the mark?
It's like really hard to figure that out.

(42:14):
I had a like email that I wrote awhile back, and I use it for editing,
so like to find my typos and commas orwhatever, and it, I get it in a chart.
So it's like what you had before.
And then it gives its recommendation.
And I went through and I rejectedalmost all of the options because what
it took out was like how my clienttalked and wrote that was more natural.

(42:36):
or like terminology that reallymattered to their things.
So it was pulling out allthese things that was actually
what made the email special.
And I, that's when I knew,I was like, oh, it's done.
like I'm not gonna change to that.
And I didn't find editing errors, soI, those are the key things to keep.
interesting how that works.

(42:56):
Yeah, and it can get so close on somethings and then when you read it the first
time, you feel like it's good, but thenwhen you actually walk away, come back
and reread it, you have this feeling likeyou're saying where you're like, what?
This isn't quite right, but what is right?
And you like almost can'treword it yourself and it.
It's hard.

(43:17):
I had, I had that where I did apreliminary, like I was working with a
virtual assistant, and so I did that.
I did a whole bunch of back and forthwith an AI that's actually trained
for marketing too, and did a bunchof stuff and it gave me a bunch of
themes that I could then give to myVA to turn into useful posts where
she's got more knowledge of my brandand what those types of things.

(43:39):
And she was, and I looked at it, Iwas like, Hey, this is really good.
Okay, this is a really good, there's,she could do a lot with this.
And she started producingall of these posts from it.
I'm like, what?
No, What, how, did you like?
and I went back and looked at theoutput and sure enough there was, yeah,
there was some stuff in there whereI'm like, oh, I don't use that word.
we don't talk about that.
And it was like, yeah, work lifebalance and burnout are two words

(44:02):
that I'm like, don't, I don't.
Love like that.
I think that work-lifebalance is a bit mythical.
and I've just been trying tosteer away from having clients
that are in full burnout.
So if I talk about burnout, it's maybethat burnout's looming or there's
like on and off the burnout cycle, butactually people actively in burnout need
to do something different than I offer.

(44:23):
And so there were, I was gettinga bunch of posts about work-life
balance and burnout and I waslike, oh, we can't use those and
I missed that they were in there.
Because you get so much sometimes toothat we just, we can't sift through it.
And just more and moreinformation is not always helpful.
but I do think it's improving.
So we'll see in six, like sixmonths from now where we're at,

(44:46):
it's way better than it was a year
ago, that's for
sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we're better prompters.
They do yeah, we are better promptersand I like creating those specific
GPTs for very specific tasks I think.
Those do much better job atwhatever that little tiny task is.
You know, like a subject line one and ablog writer and an email writer, and just

(45:06):
like a different GPT for all the differenttasks works better if you can make those.
That's the tricky part right now.
So for people who don't know what thatso in the paid version of chat GPT,
You can use these different gpt whereyou could create some gpt that are
custom for you and then there's a bunchof gpt that other people have created

(45:27):
for all kinds of things under the sun.
and so those are pre-programmed toget chat GPT to show up in a certain
way and people load it with a bunchof instructions so that it will,
give you a certain type of input.
And so Krista, are you saying go createsome of your own GPTs for different tasks?

(45:50):
Um, if, you know how, like that'sthe, that's the hard part because
they do take a lot of very explicitinstructions and a lot of trial
and error like everything else.
try it a bunch of times and seewhat kinds of outputs you get.
I think, and you can ask chatGPT to tell you how to make
the GPT like we with chat, GPT.
Just keep going more meta too.

(46:11):
Okay.
Tell me how I do this.
How do I do this better?
Before you answer, Uhhuh, ask meall the questions you need to do.
So yeah, things like that.
Yeah, I think an easier reach,like on the paid ChatGPT still is
to create a project and all yourmarketing lives inside that project.
And so you've just loaded a bunch offiles of like email examples and a

(46:35):
bunch of files of social media postexamples, and so it, it has all of that
and all about your brand, like yourwhole brand identity and all of that.
All inside that project.
And then it can get you, most of theway there on some different things.
But again, you have to put inquality copy and examples in

(46:55):
order to get out quality copy.
So
yeah, that's tough and that's supersmart because I think I, I find too, I'll
often go into chat GPT to help a clientand I'll say, help me, help my client.
'cause it's learning who I am inthe world, And And so if I, if
it thinks that I've had it, yeah.
Confuses somebody else's story orbrand or something with me and I

(47:17):
was just like, no, that's not me.
That was me helping somebody else.
So containing it in a project, Ithink helps insulate it a little
bit from those other influences.
Yeah.
And then when you're doing dreaming andbrainstorming and like maybe future stuff,
you can have that outside the project.
So then it doesn't start pullingthat into your marketing when
you're like, wait, wait, wait.
I did not create that yet.

(47:38):
I have not yet trying to of the world.
Yes.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I had to go through and clean out allof the memories, in my ChatGPT, because
it was doing the same thing beforeI really got clear with projects.
It had all of my clients allmashed together for one really
crazy business that I was running.

(47:58):
Like I do not do all those things at once.
So by deleting those previousconversations, it takes it out
of it's storing them in thatway that you remove it and it
doesn't remember
it.
you actually have to go up into thememories and read through the memories
and delete those out separately inorder to get it to get rid of that.
Oh, wow.

(48:18):
And I tested it by saying, create animage that demonstrates like what I do,
and I could see different elements ofall my different clients, in the image.
And I was like, oh, yeah,you're real confused.
Super interesting.
were there any last topics you guys,or messages you wanted to touch on?

(48:39):
I think really it's just a journey.
I think that's the biggest thingis it won't always be easy.
Jenny said, there were seasonswhere we were like, I. Great.
And we chatted a lot andwe were communicating.
And then there were other seasons wherewe just had to stay separate and put our
heads down and just do our own thing.
And
yeah, it
will eventually shake out.
Even if we had both landed onwebsites, I think it would be harder.

(49:03):
But there's plenty of websites to write.
And Jenny also does a beautifuljob with brand messaging.
So when people are really jumbled upof trying to figure out like, what
am I even saying about my business?
What am I trying to do?
Like they come to me and they're in thatstage, I'm like, oh, let me introduce
you to Jenny Gill because she'llhelp you turn that into some words.

(49:26):
And then they can do the thing.
And then if they need a salesfunnel or emails like, please
by all means come back.
But
it's that, it's a good
diversion to
direct people over there for that.
I love that you just chose tohighlight a strength of Jenny's.
Jenny, what would you say?
Or some of Krista's strengths.
Oh, I

(49:46):
love this question.
I think she is just, she's a goodconnector as she just did and networker
and really from a place of honesty andauthenticity, like lifting up other people
and celebrating what they're doing andseeing it for what it is and then in
her work, like bringing it forth in, intheir copy or their marketing assets.

(50:08):
So I'd say that's definitelyone of your strengths.
That is awesome.
If I could just get
paid to connect people, thatwould be the most fun job ever.
I think
like a matchmaking service.
I kind of like that.
Yeah.
But not dating
there.
I think there is a revenuemodel for that though.
Like that sense of Yeah,like referrals, right.

(50:28):
And Yeah.
very cool.
while I have two copywriters who know mewell, can I ask you, what do you think
my listeners should know about what I do?
Ooh.
Not to put you on the spot or anythingand ask for free service here on the air.

(50:48):
what hits me is just like thehonesty in the conversations.
So it's across your programs andwho you are in person and within the
podcast it's all just very honestconversations, kinda like this one that
need to happen and so you just havea way of making people feel safe and
like to share and explore and be that.
That curious, kind of nature.

(51:10):
I think that's what hits me.
Thank you.
Those are priorities of mine,so I really appreciate that.
I don't feel like I do those thingsintentionally, but through observing and
listening through, kind of working throughdoing a bunch of things and then getting
feedback from people, which I've learnedfrom you guys to do a lot more of that,
that I'm learning that those are thethings that kind of come out naturally.

(51:33):
So I try to pay more attention to them,but it wasn't that I was like, I'm gonna
endeavor to create safety everywhere I go.
Or here are the rulesthat I follow to do it.
So I really appreciate, it's so nice to beseen in something that you do naturally.
I think, I mean, what constantlycomes to mind when I think of you and
your programs and how you, how I'veseen people just grow and flourish

(51:56):
after working with you is people who.
You feel like you've slowly lost yourselfin the process of maybe like career or
parenting or starting a business and justlayer upon layer has just crushed people
and they're struggling, but they don'treally wanna admit they're struggling.
And it's hard to even pinpoint what isso hard about everything And that you

(52:20):
want life to look and feel different.
And I think you are just really goodat slowly helping people peel back
those layers and then start to likegrow again and flourish and get the
spark back in their lives, whichthen impacts everybody around them.
So for people who are parentingand they're like, I can't
have any time for myself.
You are like, in all reality, ifyou are thriving, then your children

(52:43):
will thrive, your marriage willthrive, your business will thrive.
And I've seen, I've just seen that inthe people that you work with, that.
Personally, they do really welland also professionally, there's no
ROI guarantee on ACTivate Vitality,but consistently, that's just what
happens when people work with you.
they have more success in business becauseit just naturally happens when they get,

(53:07):
get everything else straightened out.
Great,
thank you.
Yes.
If we do that inside work,that outside occupational
performance can only be enhanced.
But we're often trying to work from,I guess with thinking top down,
bottom up sort of thing too, right?
That but it is like just like you've, Iknow you've spent a lot of time on the
words and it's hard to, because there isthat there's not one specific outcome.

(53:30):
Like we can't be like, this is thetop of the fold headline for, what
people are gonna get outta the program.
That's really clear because it'slike this human, multifaceted,
multilayered affecting many things byworking on that stuff on the inside.
Thank you.
I really appreciate you guys.

(53:51):
Can I ask you my last questionsthat I ask everybody now?
Go for it.
what does being brave mean to you?
To me being brave, it's about doingprobably the hard thing and there's
like an action to it and there'sfeelings incorporated into it.
It's it's not always the easiest thing,but you decide to like, go forth anyway.

(54:13):
So it might not be easy 'cause it's notguaranteed, or it might not be, giving
feedback isn't always easy to do, but ithelps somebody or putting yourself out
there, I think that's a big one of showingup online, like saying something that's
controversial or your opinion or matters.
Like those are all hardand so those take bravery.
So there's big things and small thingsthat you just have to decide to do.

(54:35):
even when they're hard doing thehard thing, that's the right thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the right thing.
Yeah.
Thank
you.
Yeah.
very similar.
I was thinking it just, it's doingthings that are uncomfortable,
but to put it in like Carlynlanguage that are value aligned.
Like I have to do this thing becauseit is aligned with my values, but

(54:57):
it's really uncomfortable to do.
Yeah.
I think that's brave and it's hard
that it's okay.
it is.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it's so interesting 'causeit only makes sense, right?
That the, in order for it to bebrave there requires there to
be some sort of discomfort we'reovercoming to take the action.

(55:17):
But so often when people are hesitatingto make a move, they think they should
feel this sense of confidence andcourage and then do the thing well
then it's not very brave, right?
Like that, that the whole idea is actuallythat you're doing it uncomfortable.
Or scared or not confidentand knowing that you'll build
the confidence in the process.

(55:39):
What is something braveyou've done recently?
Okay, so I went with, I was like, okay,I gotta think of something big and brave.
I did.
And I was like, Nope, nope.
That's not, it's not the answer.
So a lot of it's just like when Ithink of what did I do brave this week?
It's like the everydaytasks that still scare me.
So I immediately thought to, there was aproject that I wrote for a client and it

(56:02):
was like, I'll say push the edge, but likeit's a little bit, either they're gonna
like it or they're gonna hate it, right?
But you gotta take that chance.
And so hitting submit andsending it to the client, that
was a moment where I felt brave.
Or another one is Giving feedback and likeI do website reviews and giving feedback
and you're like, I could tell themit's great, but that doesn't help them.

(56:22):
So I'm gonna be brave and I'm gonnadeliver the truth with kindness.
So those were my small moments of braverythis week and being on the, this podcast.
Yes, for sure.
Finally bringing it out to aplatform because it's hard and the
conversations are vulnerable and
it is tricky.

(56:42):
And you too, actually chose a really,a vulnerable topic that you came to
me with and said, Hey, we wanna talkabout how this relationship was hard
and like what we did with the pot.
It could have been sohard and you navigated it.
And the vulnerability of that,is the story you wanted to tell.
And I love that's
And it was hard.

(57:03):
I think there's probably a lot ofsmall moments that we almost don't
even remember also of feeling like,oh my gosh, I can't, she's doing that.
Or but I wanted to do that.
And just or you see a client andlike maybe you've worked, you've
interviewed a client, and then yousee them pop up and say I'm working
with Jenny Gill and she's amazing.

(57:23):
And it, it's that pang of beinglike, why didn't I get chosen?
there's just a lot of that.
And it happens.
Um, I've had it, I've experienced it too.
something brave I've done recently.
It's those little moments that are comingto mind of hitting submit for copy never
gets like less scary, in my opinion.

(57:46):
At least it hasn't yet.
or even negotiating terms for projects,I think that is scary to, reaching out to
some like medical technology companies.
That is really scary.
'cause it feels really a lot saferjust working with other therapists.
But to reach out to productcompanies and tech companies

(58:07):
that has, that's been scary.
I've been doing a little more of that.
I bet.
Yeah.
That would be scary 'cause you'repicturing a corporation on the other
side of the email, not, you know.
Mm-hmm.
Carlyn that you've talkedto a million times or, yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
can I share somethingbrave I've done recently?
Yeah.

(58:28):
I have been, Asked to speak to different,to non and it's through my connection with
the Jane app, that they're they're reallygood fa facilitators and collaborators
and I'm, going to an event with themin Palm Springs in a few days actually.
So I'm super excited about that.
But they set me up to do a talk at,To a group of wellness professionals,

(58:51):
through healthy seminars.
And I did that earlier this weekand it was mostly acupuncturists
who were there and they wantedto know about entrepreneurship.
And in talking to Lorne, the ownerbeforehand, what are some of the
struggles and oh, it's all the samestruggles the OTs are having, right?
About trying to what, who am I as anentrepreneur and how do I prioritize
having a business when really Ijust wanna help people and people

(59:14):
don't understand what I do or myvalue, and then I undervalue myself
and I was like, oh yeah, I can talkabout those things I already do.
And I did that talk and I did a similartalk in, a course for another fellow
who has a wellness professional course.
And so it's been fun to alsogo, okay, I have something to of
value to, to share with non OTs.
And it translates well, it lands well.

(59:36):
People are really enjoying the content.
Some of the stuff that a lotof OTs think is basic too.
they're excited about 'causethey haven't heard it before
in the way we talk about it.
And so that's felt brave and that's, yeah.
Come from building a few connectionsthrough a diff few different gatherings.
That's awesome.
So, cool.
Thanks.
how would you like to see OTs be a littlebit more brave in the coming years?

(01:00:02):
Good question.
I'm gonna put it very much fromlike my perspective, but I think.
It's never lost any, like the braverythat even my clients have in putting
themselves out there, sharing their,defining their message and sharing it.
I think there's one thing to writeit, it's another thing to put it
out there with your name attachedonline and like the feedback or the
conversation that that puts out there.

(01:00:24):
But I think it's also the right thing.
So I think a lot of times we havethings we value or we believe, but
we're not always brave enough to shareit or stand up for it or talk about it.
so those moments, and I think leaninginto that bravery, at least from
my context, would make a world of adifference, to just honor the bravery
that takes and say, okay, this isthe right thing to do or share.

(01:00:47):
this is a bonus question.
If you could be like a little helperon their shoulder in that moment where
they're going, I can't put this outthere, what would you say to them?
I would say if you've done thework to make sure that this
is really what you wanna say.
you're not just like typing it up oryou didn't come up with an idea and
you're sharing it out of emotions.

(01:01:08):
But you, if you've done the work todig in and say this is important.
This is what I believe what I wanna say.
it will feel scary to hitlike that submit button.
like we're talking about submittingto clients the same thing when you're
posting it online, but if you'vedone the work, then just hit it.
some of the stuff can be deleted ifyou really change your mind, but it
just takes bravery in that moment.
And it's so true, those things that wherewe hesitate and go, Ooh, is this a little

(01:01:33):
bit too out of the middle of, you know,the sort of typical things people see.
Is this gonna alienate some people?
Is this gonna is thistoo much of my opinion?
And not necessarily towing the line.
It's tends to be those things thatreally draw those specific people who
are really connected with who you are.

(01:01:53):
And it's scary 'cause you may turn awaysome people, but those might have not been
the ideal people for you to work with.
And so while I don't say, hey, go outand be edgy all over the place, it does
tend to be, in my experience, thoseplaces where I'm just pushing a little
bit more into an authentic opinion thana generic thing that calls out my people.

(01:02:14):
I think it's especially hard forOT because we're trained to, you're
gonna get along with all thesedifferent types of people, right?
Yeah.
And we're gonna be generalists andwe're trained to, to empower others.
And so it really, it's an extra step,like you said, to just lean into that.
'cause it, it feels extrahard, I think, for us.
Yeah.

(01:02:34):
Yeah.
Do you know something that strikes me inthat response and in my work with both of
you too, is that while copywriting is yourskill and marketing strategy that goes
with, that is your skill, you're oftenbeing asked for bigger business strategy
in the process where a person's going,I can just put 20 services on, right?

(01:02:56):
that makes sense.
And you might be like, here's why.
Maybe kind of narrowing thatdown or here's why, but it's
etching into business coaching.
And that's gotta be probablyuncomfortable sometimes.
'cause you're not claimingto be a business coach.
And similarly too, I don't reallyidentify myself as a business coach.
I'm more of a person coach.
but for people with businesses,so I'm, I do weigh in on things,

(01:03:18):
but how do you navigate that?
overlap.
It really depends on how far they are.
Yeah.
if, because I, and I think Jenny alwaysdoes discovery calls too, we both meet
with a person and get to know them and getto know their needs before saying here's
a project exchange money, work together.

(01:03:38):
And during that call, a lot of timesI can figure out if they actually need
marketing or if they're like the stagebefore that and they need to figure out
like what the heck they're even doing.
'cause I cannot launch a programthat they haven't figured out yet.
Yeah.
And I've had people come wherethey're like, I might have a
community or I might do this.
And I'm like, whoa, there are waytoo many mights in this conversation.

(01:04:03):
And then I can provide resources andreferrals to help them like refine
what it is they're selling or even justdo like a. A founding launch, put it
together enough to throw it out thereand see if it even works, and then come
back and we can put together the wholesales funnel once you've proven it.

(01:04:24):
Because there's no reason to investin an entire big sales funnel when you
don't even know if you like providing it.
And you don't even know ifpeople want what you're selling.
Just because we think it's agood idea doesn't always mean
our clients actually want it.
totally agree.
we've talked about this a lot oflike how do you pull those apart?
It's way tricky in practice,and I think Krista and I have.

(01:04:45):
Probably both made many mistakesin over-delivering and like to
get to the copy, we had to do alot of steps before we got there
and we didn't get paid for those.
so, for me, part of it has been addingin a brand message offer that's some of
the earlier steps or adding in like abrainstorming session where you can help
people with some of those earlier stepsthat come before copywriting so that,

(01:05:08):
you get paid for some of that becauseit's a lot of brain work that goes on
behind the scenes, whether it's thebusiness owner or the copywriter asking
the questions and filling in the dots.
yeah, and I'd say that's likean ongoing journey for me 'cause
it's not a simple thing to solve.
I do love people who have workedwith the business coach 'cause
you can tell the difference.
they'll have more ofthose pieces in place.

(01:05:30):
so that's always a green flag for me.
If they've worked with a businesscoach or if they've hired somebody
before, those are both like hugegreen flags in just their personal and
business growth then, you know, they'reprobably in a good spot for copy.
That makes sense.
And I also appreciate how, while,yeah, it would be great if they
had a business coach, both of youthought, what is the offer I could

(01:05:53):
offer that they're ready for?
Rather than say no, go and spend allyour money on somebody else and they
may or may not come back to you,which sometimes is the right thing.
But if If there is something that youcan offer that's just the right size
for their readiness and start to buildthat relationship, it's good business
thinking, To think through, okay, I couldsell you this thing, but oh my goodness,

(01:06:15):
that's not going to come very easily'cause you haven't done these things.
So why don't we start here?
And that's a smaller bitethat, could get you rolling
and see where we go from there.
You guys are so smart.
Now, I know you have ways forpeople to connect with you.
You've sent me some links to share.
Tell me about how you would like thepeople to reach out to you and for what

(01:06:39):
like we talked about, my focusis really on sales funnels and
email marketing, sales pages, thatwhole side of the marketing arena.
And so most of the time peoplecome to me after they've kind of
beta launched a program and they'veproven that this thing can work.
It is what they wanna offer, andit actually does help people.

(01:07:03):
And then I can help them put togetherthe whole funnel to get new leads in.
Teach them about building thatconnection and educating to make
sure it is the right option for them.
And then the sales page, which is intheory and hopefully the point where
people are ready to buy, they read thesales page and they go, oh my gosh,
like you've been reading my mail.

(01:07:24):
This is exactly how I'm feeling.
Yes, I need to be in this program.
And that's the part of marketingthat I like to focus on.
And you can reach out on Instagram,on LinkedIn, pretty much everything
everywhere for me is Krista Frahm Agency.
So you can put that on Instagramor LinkedIn or even my website,

(01:07:44):
my email, all of the things.
And I will
share those links below.
And you also sent me a link to afree training about testimonials.
Yes.
Currently I have a testimonials training.
There will be some new free resourcescoming out soon when I get them ready.
But testimonials, especially whenyou're like thinking about all

(01:08:06):
the stuff that ChatGPT creates.
Testimonials still are like marketinggold because they're the actual
words of actual clients and theyjust connect better with people.
So using testimonials, knowinghow to format them and where to
put them is just really important.
So that's why that training was created.

(01:08:27):
Thank you.
And there's a link to itbelow in the show notes.
And Jenny, tell us a little bit abouthow and why people should reach out to
you and what you have to share with them.
Yeah, so as you've heard, I do think ofdifferent stages, but we have the brand
messaging, which is working with peopleon their mission values, defining their
ideal client, kinda all those foundationalpieces that you're gonna plug in anywhere.

(01:08:49):
so people do that beginning thisstage of business, or if they're
growing their team and they wanna beable to pass on good information or
they're, they'll plug it into ChatGPTand get better outputs that way.
after that, I do stuff around websites,so website audits or reviews, which is
helping people find the improvementsthat are the easiest to make.
And then I do full website writeswhere we put it all together and

(01:09:11):
we write somebody's whole website.
let's see, where do I share?
I share.
Instagram sometimes link LinkedInsometimes, and they can visit my website
as well, has some additional information.
And my freebie that I sharedis "the mistakes that OTs tend
to make when writing copy".
And I think these are great forbusiness owners, but they're also

(01:09:34):
really great shifts to make foranything where you're working with
people and trying to communicate.
So great for handouts or, educationalmaterials of like, how do we have
to shift from academic writingto writing that people can really
understand and take in pretty quickly.
That's
great.
Thank you for
sharing those resources with everybody.

(01:09:54):
Really appreciate that.
And I appreciate youguys being here today.
This is a really good conversation.
I knew it would be, but I'm reallylooking forward to sharing that.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
we were looking for the rightplace to share, so thanks
for providing that for us.
My pleasure.
Now, wasn't that a great conversation?

(01:10:16):
I so enjoyed the authenticity of theirexchange the way they shared some
really difficult moments with us.
that modeling really highlightsto me a good way to go about
building relationships in business.
Go check out their freebies.
Go join the Facebook group where wecan keep this conversation going.
Ask Jenny, ask Krista, ask meanything you'd like to ask us.

(01:10:37):
We'd love to keep chatting.
Thank you for listening and be brave OTs.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 42: Navigating Competition and Collaboration as OT Copywriters with Guests, Jenny Gill and Krista Frahm

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

All Episodes

Ep. 42: Navigating Competition and Collaboration as OT Copywriters with Guests, Jenny Gill and Krista Frahm

Stuff You Should Know