Ep. 43: Overcoming Entrepreneurial Perfectionism with the Scientific Method

Episode Summary:

Is perfectionism keeping you stuck in “figure-it-all-out-first” mode? You’re not alone and you’re not broken.

In this solo episode of The BRAVE OT Podcast, I explore a powerful reframe for occupational therapy entrepreneurs who stay in perfecting mode, immobilized by self-doubt and a need to get it right before they begin. Maybe you even use the term imposter syndrome. The antidote? The scientific method. Yes, the same framework we trust as clinicians.

I walk through how we can approach entrepreneurship like the clinical scientists we already are. Instead of waiting until something is perfect, we can co-create, experiment, observe, revise, and grow. This shift can unlock so much momentum, clarity, and confidence in your business. AND it's best practice in entrepreneurship.

I also share some behind-the-scenes updates: from developing a university course on entrepreneurship, to guest teaching, to getting ready for Bronwyn Paynter's Nature Day in Australia, and how all of it connects back to how we show up bravely in our work.

This episode is here to help you move forward. One experiment at a time.

 

In This Episode:

• Why perfectionism is so common among high-achieving OTs

• What imposter syndrome really means (and why I rarely use the term)

• How the scientific method can be your best business tool

• What entrepreneurship and treatment planning have in common

• Why selling while you're testing matters more than you think

• How ACTivate Vitality helps therapy business owners build inner flexibility to navigate outer challenges

 

Interested in joining me at the Nature Day in Australia?

Learn more here → https://bit.ly/NatureDay2025

 

Want to learn about working with me?

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, BRAVE OTs.
If you've been listening for awhile, you probably know that I
don't do a lot of solo episodes.
It feels a bit uncomfortable to me.
I think it's that sense of, inconversation, I can act more naturally.
We leave room for different perspectives.
It's an ongoing openness, and when Ispeak in monologue, it feels a little

(00:21):
bit more like I'm telling you how itis, and that's not how I roll at all.
but i'm gonna get good at this.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna practice thismore and I plan to come to you with
more short and snappy solo episodes.
I know a lot of people likethe meandering back and forth.
that takes us in a lot of differentdirections with the interviews or I

(00:43):
don't even call them interviews, I callthem podcast conversations 'cause I like
that to be a reciprocal sort of thing.
Those are nice, and I can give yousome shorter insights and share some of
the things I've learned along the way.
So this is one of them.
The topic of this episode is gonna beabout perfectionism and using skills you
already have and know as the antidote.

(01:05):
You don't get to this place of beingan OT entrepreneur without a healthy
dose of achievement orientation.
It's hard to get into OT, it's hardto do the number of years of education
that are required now to become an OT.
And then you have to be prettygood at it to have that willingness
to go out and do it on your own.

(01:26):
so that achiever in you is reallyactive and it's been helpful.
Sometimes when we get a little inour heads with some self-doubt,
when we're starting something new,the achiever in us, might sway a
little bit more toward perfectionism.
I see it a lot.
anyone who wants to do somethingthat's important to them

(01:46):
within their business, put their nameon it, really wants to do it well.
You don't wanna put subparwork out there into the world.
For one, you're already worried aboutpeople judging what you're doing.
And so if there are some flaws init, ooh, that really feels magnified
to you, what will they think?
What if I don't get it right?
What if some people don't like it?

(02:07):
What if some people scoff at it.
It really can stop us from puttingsomething really interesting
and new out into the world.
So I've got some ideas and we'regoing to connect it to other
concepts that you already believein as a healthcare professional, as
a therapist, as a business owner,
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,

(02:31):
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.

(02:54):
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
I'd like to first give you a littlebit of context to preface the
content that I'm going to be sharing.
And this will serve as a littlebit of an update and a share

(03:14):
of what I've been up to lately.
So a few months back I was askedby the University of Alberta to
engage in creating an electivemodule, for the spring session.
we talked aboutentrepreneurship and coaching.
as I considered the amount of time Ihad about 13 hours to teach the content,
I figured I needed to narrow it downto coaching or entrepreneurship,

(03:37):
and I had a lot more to say aboutentrepreneurship, so that became my focus.
I named the module, CreatingPossibility Through Entrepreneurship
as an Occupational Therapist, and.
That sounded good, exciting.
I knew how to do this right?
And then I got in myhead and went, wow, okay.
This isn't just me putting on a webinarthat shares my personal experience, this

(03:59):
is me teaching students in a university.
And the level of, information and evidencebase content really needed to be tight.
And so my perfectionist wasactivated a little bit, but I
think it was for good reason.
I think that it really sent me in thisdirection of doing research, what's out

(04:21):
there, checking my assumptions, checkingmy experiences, checking what the
evidence says, what the theories are thatsupport these experiences that I have.
Or maybe they don't support it andI needed to be open to that too and
explore it in another direction.
So I went digging and learning andlistening and reading and exploring

(04:41):
and found some really cool stuff.
And it really actually reminded me ofwhen I discovered ACT Acceptance and
Commitment therapy because it really wasthe set of resources and frameworks that
reflected how I saw things how excitingwas it to have that be a really validated,
approach that came with frameworks thatwere much better than the things I was

(05:05):
putting together by meshing together myexperience of CBT, behavioral activation,
occupational therapy, those types ofthings, act kind of helped me, organize
that with tons of research and evidence.
So that was really exciting.
And the same sort of happened asI was exploring entrepreneurship.
So I really.
Focused in on the entrepreneurial mindset.

(05:26):
So the way we need to be, thefoundation, the building blocks that
we need within us to then be ableto be effective as entrepreneurs.
It all starts with us.
If we're starting our own business,we're creating our own product, we
need to come into it in a certain way.
And that's that sweet spot that Isee when I'm helping people through

(05:46):
my ACTivate Vitality program, whichis for therapy business owners.
We really do work on theinside to optimize the output.
So some might call it, Iguess a top down approach.
or I think about it asan inside out approach.
Let's really create that foundation,those internal concepts, perceptions,

(06:06):
ways of approaching things thatenable us to handle any number of
outside tasks in an effective way.
And there's some really coolresearch that supports this.
At the same time, I was invitedcontribute module someone else's
course on the entrepreneurial mindset.

(06:27):
that was for Jess Reynolds.
We just recorded a podcast conversationfor The BRAVE OT Podcast that will
probably come out in a few weeksor a month, and so I'm looking
forward to sharing that with youso you can learn more about it.
But I thought, yeah, this is great.
I can apply this stuff.
I've been learning and researching for theuniversity module, put that in program.
And then I was also invited tospeak to a group of wellness

(06:50):
professionals through healthy seminars.
And I used some of that same content,around the entrepreneurial mindset
to contribute to that webinar.
And so it's been fun to keep exploring,practice presenting and share the
really neat stuff that I'm learning.
And one other exciting thing that'scoming up in a few weeks, I'm going

(07:12):
to be going to Australia and I'll beattending the Australia OT Conference in
Adelaide my friend and colleague, BronwynPainter has asked that I participate
in her Nature Day at the Sanctuary.
In Bronwyn's Nature Day, I'm goingto be talking about entrepreneurship

(07:32):
as the path to purpose.
I'm really excited about that framingof entrepreneurship, not as the sort of,
big business, maximum profitability, butrather that ability to carefully craft
and curate work that we love to do.
And that we can get paid for.
Bronwyn's Nature Day takesplace on Saturday, June 28th.

(07:54):
Just after the Australian OT Conferenceat the Sanctuary, which isn't too far
from Adelaide, I would love to meetyou if you're going to be in the area.
I will put a link so that you cancheck it all out in the show notes.
if you are at the AustralianOT Conference, please find me.
I'll try and wear a brave OT t-shirtor something like that to make
myself a little bit more visible.

(08:15):
But I would really love to meetall of the people that I've had
these neat online connections with.
Now, as you know, Jane sponsorsThe BRAVE OT Podcast, and I have
to tell you, my most favoritefeature ever has just come out.
I've been experimenting with itfor the last few weeks and oh my

(08:35):
goodness, it's a game changer.
Jane is a clinic managementsoftware built to help you focus
on what matters most -your clients.
Building rapport with your clients isimportant during appointments, and that
can be challenging when you're trying totake timely and detailed documentation.
That's why Jane built AI ascribeto help you document important

(08:55):
information without the manual notetaking I was at a Jane Live event
recently, and the person who heads upthe AI scribe development presented.
His wife's an OT and he came to thisidea or this concept as he observed
his wife writing notes in the eveningwhile he did the dishes after supper.

(09:17):
This feature truly transforms yoursession recordings into chart entries,
and All you have to do is turn it onat the start of the session, end it
at the end of the session, and thistakes a session recording and turns
it into a chart entry, and then youjust have to review your notes, sign
the chart, and then you're done.
Since security is top priority at Janeai, scribe was built securely in-house

(09:41):
to be fully HIPAA and PIPEDAcompliant with a tool you can trust.
Jane helps you spend moretime on your client's care.
To learn more about how Jane canhelp you change how you feel about
documentation, head over the link in theshow notes, to book a demo and sign up.
And if you're using my link,you are given a one month grace

(10:04):
period on your new Jane account.
So back to achievement, perfectionism,maybe even the word imposter syndrome
comes up for you as you think aboutcreating something new, innovating
and putting it out into the world.
Imposter syndrome is a term Itend to use very selectively.

(10:25):
it's really important to notethe definition of this term and a
little bit about the roots of it.
And I've done a whole episodeabout this in the past, but the
definition is "the persistent
inability to believe that one's successis deserved or has been legitimately
achieved as a result of one's own effortsor skills." So sort of this sense of,
ah, like people are going to find me out.

(10:47):
I am not meant to be here.
I don't deserve any of this success.
I didn't do it.
I'm an imposter.
Like I really shouldn't be here.
And this isn't just like, ah,I'm scared to do something new.
This is.
Persistent, the persistent inability.
so that's a much deeper thingthan the natural self-doubt that

(11:07):
comes up when we try new things.
Of course, self-doubt comesup when we try new things.
That only makes sense.
We are nervous, wehaven't mastered it yet.
We are figuring it out and thereis some risk making a mistake.
I mean, it's actually inevitable.
It's almost certain we're gonna makesome mistakes as we're trying new things.

(11:27):
So we have some doubt, and our nervoussystem really wants to keep us safe.
So it brings in these thoughtsof who are you to do this?
What do you think you're doing?
You shouldn't be doing this.
You don't know enough to do this.
Stay in your bubble.
It is safe there.
That's what our nervous system doesvia our minds to get us to stay put.
And if we think about imposter, thedefinition of imposter as "a person

(11:50):
who pretends to be someone else inorder to deceive others, especially
for fraudulent gain." I don't think byyou putting together a new framework or
workbook or product out into the world,you're actually trying to deceive or.
Have fraudulent gain.
I really don't think that's thecase when we tend to use the term

(12:11):
imposter syndrome with ourselves.
And then syndrome is "a group of symptomswhich consistently occur together or
a condition characterized by a setof associated symptoms." This is a
pathologizing, let's not pathologizethe natural process of having some
doubt when we're doing something new.
Let's just call it whatit is, it's self-doubt.

(12:32):
Sometimes I call it the imposter monster.
I bring in some of my act toolsto rename it a little bit, lighten
the hold of it a little bit.
Oh yeah, there's my imposter monster.
Yep.
I'm having some self-doubt.
My mind is telling menot to make any changes.
I try to bring in those types of,rebuttals, when the self-doubt
Everything I've learned aboutentrepreneurship points to the scientific

(12:53):
method, the scientific process.
You know this one, you're a scientist.
You know that if we're conducting anexperiment, or even doing an assessment
in order to identify a treatmentplan for a client, we show up as a
scientist, we observe the challenge, we.
Seek to understand the problem.
Maybe we do some assessments,maybe we do some explorations.

(13:16):
Maybe we take lots of notes.
Maybe we get a large samplesize so that we can do a lot of
observing and see these patterns.
Then we form a hypothesis, createan idea of a solution, maybe even
create a minimum viable product,
and then we go about testingour hypothesis or solution.

(13:37):
If we're thinking about this likea clinician, this is where we make.
A treatment plan, knowing thatwe might adjust it based on how
things go with the next steps.
Then we test our hypothesis.
As scientists, we conduct anexperiment, we try it out.
At this stage, we're thinkingabout this as an experiment, right?
We go about trying to see ifthis thing is going to work.

(14:00):
We are exploring theefficacy of this solution.
Is this the thing or doesit need some changing?
Similarly, that's howtreatment goes, right?
We try something out with a client.
We see what that result is, right?
So that next we evaluate the results.
How did this experimentpan out with our client?
With our experiment, we evaluatethe results, then we revise and

(14:21):
we go back and test that revision.
How does that work out?
Rerun an experiment, do session witha client, and we continuously develop.
Often when we think aboutentrepreneurship, we think, I
need to work it all out before Itake this out to the real world.
'cause I might fall on my faceand be embarrassed, right?

(14:42):
We don't wanna mess it up.
We wanna have it perfect before we goand take it out into the real world.
And actually that's a veryunscientific way of doing things.
it is actually much better to connectwith the people who need the support.
Ask them all sorts of questions, explorewith them co-create solutions that are
actually going to be helpful and solvethe real problems that they are seeing.

(15:07):
And then create that first thing.
We try it out with peoplewith real world people.
I'd hate to see you go createa whole website and invest in
design and production beforehaving tested this thing out.
And one interesting thing I've learnedin this process of entrepreneurship
is that also selling the productas you test it is an important

(15:32):
part of gathering the data you needto see if this thing's gonna fly.
So if nobody wants to buy thething that you're creating, let's
say you make it a lower price.
This is sort of you know, putting it outthere as a beta test or something that you
let people know that this is the first.
Version they are in on the ground floor.
You're really excited to create thething that works for them and you're

(15:54):
seeking feedback, therefore, they'regetting in at this really great price.
Being able to see that peopleactually want to buy the thing is
an important data point for testing
because the truth is in that uptake.
If you're really going to your neighborsand friends and saying, "Hey, can you

(16:15):
gimme some feedback or try this thingout," they're doing it as a favor.
Solution because maybe theydon't fully have the problem
and there's a bunch of bias.
That's not a great experiment.
You really do wanna test this outin the real world with real people
and leave room to improve it.
and so connecting yourentrepreneurial endeavor.

(16:36):
To the scientific process as a way toconceptualize the most effective path
toward creating solutions, developingproducts, innovating is key to being
a bit of an antidote to perfectionism.
There's just no roomfor perfectionism here.
You have to approach thisknowing that it will develop over
time with real world feedback.

(16:57):
It's actually a bit arrogant tothink that you can perfect it
without trying it with people.
You really have to sort those thingsout in the real world, in the context.
We know this, right?
We're OTs, In the context wherepeople are needing to perform,
engage, do the things they do.
So let's think like scientistsinstead of achieving perfectionists.

(17:18):
This is really objective learning.
There are no failures in the process.
It's all data in this scientific process.
Really wouldn't we prefer to beco-creators with our clients.
That's kind of how we work, right?
So the people who are going tobe the consumers of this product
or this thing we're making, wereally need to co-create with them.

(17:39):
And that just feelslike a more fluid thing.
So thinking about it as a scientist.
But also thinking about it as thatclinician who's assessing the efficacy
of a solution, identifying the problem,getting curious about it, trying new
things, layering on explorations.
The pathway to perfecting something isthrough using, putting it out there,

(18:02):
getting feedback, and improving over time.
I hope this has been helpful inproviding a bit of a unique antidote
to perfectionism and self-doubtand imposter syndrome, if that's a
term that you're comfortable using.
This is the sort of thing wetalk about a lot in real time in
the ACTivate Vitality program.

(18:23):
So I'm gonna tell you just brieflyabout the ACTivate Vitality program.
It's a group program, coaching,mentorship, community.
It's a place that we gatheras international clinicians
who own businesses and wetalk out the real world stuff.
The stuff that comes up, the,oh crap, what's happening here?

(18:47):
Or I didn't think to look.
There, or I have been avoidingthis email for eons 'cause I don't
know what to do about it or how doI set boundaries in my business?
Is it appropriate to do this next thing?
We're often in these little isolatedbubbles by having our own practices
and having a community of other peoplewho are figuring the same things out,

(19:08):
or maybe I've already figuredout the problem that you have
in front of you, coming togetherand sorting through the things.
And then also.
Building in that internal flexibility tobe able to respond to the big feelings and
all the doubts and the uncertainty and thesticky thought places that we get stuck.
It's really powerful to have acommunity of practice for that.

(19:31):
So that's what we do in ACTivate Vitality.
I, for the last year or so, havebeen opening and closing the doors
to ACTivate Vitality At this point,I'm looking at making a shift back to
having it available more consistently.
So if this is something that interestsyou, please reach out, send me a message.

(19:53):
I'll put a link in the show notesfor you to be able to reach out to
me and just say, ACTivate Vitality-i'd love to learn more, and we'll
figure out what to do with that.
To give you some examples of the typesof changes, The OTs in the ACTivate
Vitality program have experienced.
On some recent calls, There'sone OT who has had a really

(20:15):
successful private practice.
There is much more work thanshe can possibly do herself.
She really wants to expand thecapacity and availability of this
type of service for neurodivergentyoung people, in her area.
And so she's hired a couple of OTsand she's dealing with the growing
pains of onboarding and training andworking out contracts and, how they're

(20:41):
navigating those day-to-day challengesand going, oh, shoot, okay, this.
Didn't quite fit or thisprovision I put in the contract
has turned to this challenge.
And and that was coming withsome really big feelings.
And so we explored that and we figuredout how do we look at this differently?
How do we look at this fromthat person's perspective?

(21:01):
How do we look at this from theperspective of the contract?
What can you actually change right now?
Or what information needs to be providedto give context to the person in how
they're seeing that element of thecontract The really important subtext
of what happened in that conversationis that that person felt safe to share

(21:22):
the nitty gritty feelings of resentmentcreeping in fear of all of this.
What is this all worth?
The doubts about what am I doing?
she felt safe to be able to bringthose raw feelings onto the call, and
then she felt really validated by notbeing judged for them being heard in
a place where people are like, yeah,I totally get it, and I've been there.

(21:45):
I've done these things.
These are some ways that I've beena contractor and seeing things set
up, these are ways that I've doneit and I'm sharing my experiences.
Other people are sharing their experiencesand you could just see her, level of
emotional arousal come down bit by bit.
Oh, thank you.
Yes.
Oh, thank you for hearing me.

(22:07):
Okay.
You could see her breathe more easily.
You could see her voice tone shift.
You could see hershoulders come down a bit.
And she came up with somesolutions and next steps.
And so often when we think about businesscoaching, we think about, what are
those concrete solutions and next steps?
Truly, you could probably work thatout with ChatGPT, it was really being

(22:29):
seen, heard, being in community, feelingsafe, and coming into that place of
co-regulation, so that then she could beopen to solutions and next steps and feel
more confident and grounded and supportedas she moves forward in those next steps.

(22:52):
We're doing these types of things all thetime as people come and bring these sort
of day-to-day nitty gritty challenges, andthen we unpack and be with the feelings,
create safety and community, explore,develop more skills, and this has a
cumulative effect of actually becominga little bit less Emotionally reactive

(23:14):
when the challenges come up becausethere's that sense of knowing and feeling
supported in your business, knowingthat you could get on a call or a couple
this week if you really need support.
I really love that.
I think in this world of AI coming inand, providing us with all the answers
we need at our fingertips, which can beoverwhelming and sometimes imperfect,

(23:36):
but there's a lot of information, veryeasily a available to us, and it's truly
that human connection, co-regulation,that sense of community, that sense of
feeling safe and building that resilienceinside as an entrepreneur, that is
going to be more and more valuable.
that's what we offer.

(23:57):
And I'm really excited.
So I'd love to talk to you if that'ssomething you're interested in.
Check out.
The links in the show notes, andtalk about ACTivate Vitality.
As always, be brave.
OT, thanks for being here.
I'd also really love it.
If you have been enjoying the podcast,if you could go and follow rate,

(24:22):
give reviews, all the differentpodcasts, have different things, but
following makes a big difference.
If there's a place for ratingit in your podcast platform.
I'd love to see five stars if you feellike it's a five star sort of thing.
And even better , I know on ApplePodcast you can write a brief
review and that really goes along way to helping the people who

(24:43):
need to hear this podcast hear it.
and as always, be brave OTs.