Ep. 45: Burnout and Attuning to Your Inner Wisdom to Transform Your Business With Guest, Dr. Jess Reynolds

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So in that basement of burnout, in thatarea of just like I give up, I need to

(00:03):
finish this last project and tap out andbuy a tiny little boat and just float down
the river until eternity comes, right?
That forced me to really lookand ask the questions, why?
Why am I still doing this?
'cause I could just tap out right now.
Wow.
So you, in this process of kindof creating the sunset, the sunset

(00:24):
course, and walking away andfloating into your own sunset, you
found a path to more authenticity.
But, and in that, I can see anumber of things that happened.
So you stopped your practice, sodidn't reregister for your license.
you're listening to the BraveOT Podcast with me, Carlyn Neek.

(00:45):
This podcast is all about empoweringoccupational therapists to step up,
level up, blaze some trails, and maybeengage in a little conscious rebellion.
In service of our profession, ourclients, our work, our businesses,
and living our mission wholeheartedly.
We are all about keepingit real, doing hard things.
Things unhustling, being curious,exploring, growing through our

(01:07):
challenges, and finding joy,fulfillment, and vitality as we do so.
Really, we're OT ingourselves, and each other.
I hope you love this episode!
Today's conversation on The BRAVE OTPodcast is with somebody who isn't an
OT, but who gets it, Dr. Jess Reynolds atraditional Chinese medicine practitioner
and educator with a gift for talkingabout the things we often shy away from

(01:30):
burnout, alignment, identity, and howmuch our work is shaped by the work
we haven't yet done for ourselves.
In this episode, we get really vulnerableand share a lot of our stories of
struggle and how those have shaped us.
We talk about the moments that make uswanna throw in the towel, the projects
that bring us back to life, and the kindof inner work that builds out our success.

(01:52):
Jess and I share our experiences aboutwhat it really looks like to reimagine
your business, not just for profit,but for integrity and for Vitality.
You'll hear us chat about education,self-compassion, being at the Introvert
Table ACT, and what happens the courseyou're building ends up rebuilding you, if

(02:12):
you've been feeling stuck, misaligned, orjust craving a deeper conversation about
being a helping professional in 2025.
This one's for you.
I want to give a shout outto Jane for two reasons.
One,
They're our podcast sponsor and two,because Jane actually brought Jess and
I together as we're both ambassadors.
And something I really love aboutJane once I got to meet a lot of

(02:34):
other ambassadors is that theyreally get behind having people
like us represent their brand.
Small business owners with awhole lot of heart and soul.
Building rapport with your clientsis important during appointments,
and that can be challengingwhen you're also trying to take
timely, and detailed documentation.
That's why Jane built AI Scribe tohelp you document important information

(02:58):
without the manual note taking.
This feature transforms your sessionrecordings into chart entries.
All you have to do is review yournotes, sign the chart, and you're done.
And since security is top priorityat Jane AI Scribe was built securely
in-house to be fully HIPAA and PDAcompliant with a tool you can trust.
Jane helps you spend moretime on your client care.

(03:21):
To learn more how Jane can helpyou feel about documentation.
Head to the link in the shownotes to book a demo and sign up.
And if you're ready to go, don't forgetto use my Code Vitality for a one month
grace period on your new Jane account.
Hey Jess, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
I'm really excited to haveyou here as a non OT, sharer.

(03:44):
Thank you.
I'm really grateful to be here.
we've had a number of conversationsand pretty much every time I think
to myself to hang it, we shouldhave been recording this, so I'm
glad that we're actually doing that.
Isn't that true?
That's very true.
We've done recording things together, butwe've had lots of really good sideline
conversations and we've got to spend a lotmore time together these last few months.
Yeah, and it's been awesome.

(04:04):
Yeah, totally.
for those who are listening, I'm gonnaget Jess to introduce himself in a
moment to frame who he is, but I'mgonna tell you why he's here first.
Jess is somebody that I metthrough Jane, the Jane app.
Jane sponsors this podcast, and Jess and Iwere invited together as two practitioners
and ambassadors for Jane in Calgary, whenthey, last year, I think they brought us

(04:29):
together for lunch and said, Hey, what ifwe put on, an event, what was it called?
the Be Well Summit.
The Be Well Summit, that's right.
Yeah.
They hosted us.
And so it was you and me and Mel and Ildi.
We all have different backgrounds, and wedecided to make it about burnout as health
practitioners and business owners, but notin a, Hey, you just need to have better

(04:52):
work-life balance and do more self-care.
That was not how that day went atall, and it was a really fun day.
But since then we've got to domore collaborations and things
and we'll share about those aswe get into the conversation.
Can you tell the listeners what yourbackground is and why you do what you do?
Sure.
Yeah.
so I am a doctor of traditionalChinese medicine and acupuncture.

(05:15):
I've been practicing nowfor, oh gosh, about 13 years.
I've done a bunch ofdifferent ways of practicing.
I've owned my own clinic where I haddifferent practitioners working for me.
I've done the whole mobilething, which is great.
Now I'm currently doinghome-based business.
Interestingly enough, though, myacupuncture license, I've put on, pause
for just this year, just kinda work onsome other projects and reevaluate things.

(05:37):
so that's the professionalbackground as far as my modality.
But in addition to that, I've been aneducator for the very vast majority
of my career in the wellness world.
I've taught at different colleges,acupuncture colleges, massage
colleges, osteopathic colleges,lots of yoga workshops, and I own
a continuing education company.
That largely works on, not the skill-basedstuff, not like teaching how to do another

(06:00):
skill, but sorta, I guess you couldcall it soft skills, the inner work that
helps us become better practitioners.
And that's a very 30,000 foot,overview of my professional career
Yeah.
And that's where I think, a lot ofour overlap lies not only in the, like
the values and ways we do things, inthe, but the, that sense of the inner

(06:21):
workings is our shared interest, right?
That, business coaching is cool andwe do enough of that, but more of that
kind of inside out who are you, howand how do you show up in this world
of business and practice and beingand how do you take care of yourself
in that, how you do that effectively?
How do you manage the stuff thatcomes up inside as we try new things,

(06:43):
we've got a shared passion there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, when I was first getting intoto teaching, I taught all practical
stuff and then I was teaching at amassage college and at some point in
time they said, we have this module,it needs to be done, blah, blah, blah.
It's called Psychology of the Body.
Jess, do you wanna do it?
'cause when I was going through TCMschool and my practice, I largely
specialized in psychoemotionaldisorders through a TCM lens.

(07:05):
So kind kinda this psych background,And after teaching a whole bunch of
different topics, I found universallyafter I'd finished one of the
psych modules, maybe it was aboutself-awareness or creative imagery.
Students wouldn't come up and be like.
Wow.
Like that.
I cannot believe howhelpful that class was.
And that really clicked a lightbulb for me, realizing like it's,

(07:26):
I've never had somebody come upto me and be like, you know what?
Cupping, cupping has changed my lifenow that I can do that, or this new
needling technique, thank you so much.
But the number of times I hadpeople come up after those psych
classes, it really got me thinkingthat this is an underserved thing.
Like people aren't talkingabout it when it turns out.
it's like such an essentialpart of being a practitioner.

(07:49):
Yes, and looking at people holisticallyas whole beings, whole humans, who
are spiritual, cognitive, emotionaleffective, and physical, those are
perspectives that are foundationalin both of our professions too.
That, that we see people as whole.
and so if we ignore those effectiveand, internal and cognitive

(08:11):
parts, we've missed the boat.
Like we can, we can't actually dealwith a human without looking at
those things and considering them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I found it frustrating the firstlittle while when I was teaching in
the massage college specifically.
'cause I, it was like.
We could not talk about anything,not specifically related to the body.
Like it was don't talk about,you say the word spirituality

(08:34):
or you say body, mind, soul.
Like no, get outta here, you're firedthe body 100% the mind, we could
acknowledge it existed, but anythingbeyond that, it was absolutely not.
Which was so shocking to me as a TCMpractitioner because of course we learn
there's no body, mind, soul connectionbecause they're literally the same thing.
Yes.
So to understand that there are so manydifferent modalities and practitioners

(08:58):
out there whose primary education isteaching them, you only focus on the body.
You only focus on the mind.
And let's not even say that horriblefour letter S word out loud.
it was very shocking to me.
Yeah, that is really interesting.
'cause I, I would've assumedthat would be fully integrated.
so it's very surprising in the Canadianmodel of occupational therapy, it's

(09:21):
evolved and changed, but the oneI was trained on, spirituality was
actually at the center of the model.
So there would be environments, thenlike person aspects, physical, cognitive,
affective, but then spiritual wasright in the middle with the person.
And then there would be occupationsand different types of occupations
that were in these concentric, shapes.

(09:41):
But, so I would've expected your practiceto be more oriented to that kind of
spirituality, and not necessarily from areligious perspective, but that sense of
who you are and your place in the world
Yeah.
and in TCM it is, but outside ofthat, pretty much all the other
modalities have worked with.

(10:02):
Gotcha.
Its less, less integrated.
It's less talked about for onereason or another, and it's a shame.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when these students were comingup to you and sharing how impactful
that was, were they just talkingabout for their practice or were
they talking about for themselves?

(10:22):
That's a good question.
I suppose we have to get into identitywhen we talk about that because what
I've found with wellness practitionersis the identity of practitioner is
something that comes out of, it'snot just isolated to occupation.
It's like I have a trades backgroundand I was an electrician, but once I

(10:43):
finished work, it's not like electricalwork is something I thought about
or read about or anything like that.
Whereas wellness practitioners, so many ofus, we finish our day seeing clients and
patients and then we still are gonna reada journal on some new study in our field.
So the reason I say this is 'causeI can't really separate whether
they were talking specifically abouttheir life or their practice because,

(11:04):
particularly at that stage intheir education, they were so
intermixed and intermingled.
Yeah.
My hope was it would indeed do both.
It would help them show up better intheir life in all aspects with their
friends, their family, their kids, butalso help them develop the capacity
to show up more fully and presentwith their patients and clients.
to answer the question, I'mhopeful that it was both.

(11:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And at that stage, where it's whileyou're teaching it, they haven't yet
fully gone and applied it yet, but,I Found like learning acceptance
and commitment therapy or act.
I did the training in 2015 and thencome 2019 I started developing like
a whole brand around supportingother clinicians in using ACT

(11:47):
personally and professionally.
And so I've used it in pretty mucheverything I've done from well in your
business course that's coming out.
We'll talk about that soon.
I used a lot of ACT, but I, it's thereason most of my stuff is called ACTivate
Vitality, it's ACT, because learning ACT.
I sought out to learn it as a clinicalskill, but learning to practice it

(12:09):
because it's very grounded in mindfulness.
I couldn't help but practice itmyself in my life and it was life
changing to, to learn that personally.
It changed how I approached,handling stressors of day-to-day.
how I was rolling with things, how Iwas getting curious, and being more
and more intentional about what Iwas doing, the way I was working,
the way I was spending my time, thepeople I was spending time with.

(12:31):
All of those things evolved as Ideveloped more grounded awareness in
myself and who I am and what I careabout, and able to remain present with
difficult thoughts and feelings andexperiences that inevitably came up.
and it.
Changed the course of my life andbusiness learning this one clinical skill.

(12:53):
And it's it can be so powerful, right?
If we are finding things that gel withus, Both personally and professionally.
'cause I can't think about myself andmy business without thinking about
my life and that context of how mybusiness needs to serve my life.
Right?
Like, again, back tothat whole human thing.
We're not just workers,we're not just, at home.

(13:13):
It's not work life balance per se.
It's, work as a part of life.
You know, as, as you describe that,I'm curious if you've had a similar
experience, to, to something thatI've just come to really accept
and understand within myself.
Okay.
So practitioner, yes.
But a huge part of what I do, in factthe vast majority is education, be it
conferences, online stuff for colleges.

(13:33):
Yeah.
And I find that I'll teach something.
Then I'll get kinda bored of itand move on to the next thing.
But then there are these few topicswhere I just, I can't quite drop it.
And the thing that I've recently realizedis the topics I'm most interested
in teaching are the ones that I mostneed to learn and work on myself.
Like I will be obsessed with teachingabout authenticity, and I have been

(13:55):
for years because of an unbelievablelack of authenticity in myself.
That I'm like, maybe if I justteach other people about it,
I won't have to do it myself.
Yeah.
If I just learn everythingthere's to learn about it and
then teach other people, I'm good.
that's something I've been experiencingwhen I think of the topics I'm
most passionate about teaching.

(14:16):
And I'm super curious as some, like,when you think about, ACT like Do
you, is there any part of you that youthink was drawn to ACT because it was
the thing you most needed to learn?
I.
Oh my gosh, yes.
so my dad died in 2012 and I did the ACTtraining in 2015 and my dad was only 59.
He was sick for only two months.

(14:37):
It was very unexpected.
and that experience of going through thattwo months of intensive illness while my
kids were really little and my businesshad just started shortly before that, or
like I had just gone all in on my businesslike the year before that, many things
came to a crisis at that point and I used.
many tools to try and get myself through.

(14:59):
I didn't necessarily turn, oh, ACT isthe thing I'm doing, but I was exploring
and I was working in mental health withother clients too, as I'm trying to
navigate my own mental health and thisnew business and I, I. Was turning a lot
to more mindfulness based practices andmeditation and trying to find these things
that were still really validating formy clients and allowing them to be there

(15:21):
with these difficult thoughts and feelingswhile I'm going through the, one of the
most difficult experiences of my life.
And that led me on thispathway where I discovered ACT.
So I was learning it for both at thesame time, but then because it was so
powerful, probably at the time thatI needed that power myself, it left
so much more of an impact on me, Ithink, because I needed to find it.

(15:45):
And that is how I'vebecome really passionate.
but it's an interesting thing too injust thinking about learning theory
and Looking at different learningstrategies and, so sometimes when my
kids are studying for something, I'llsay, Hey, do you want to teach me about
that thing as a means for studying?
what are you at a stage where youfeel like you could sit down and
talk about it and show me thatdiagram and show me how it all works

(16:07):
together, or something like that.
And because it is it's one of those stagesof learning that, teaching sets us up for.
And recently, so I, you had askedme to put together a module for your
course, and at the same time I wasdoing a seminar for, healthy seminars.
And then I was doing, this U of A moduleand I chose, I had some latitude on

(16:30):
the topics for all of these things,but I chose a similar topic across
the three platforms because I wasworking on them at the same time.
it was interesting because I couldhave talked about those things.
Easily before those, those experiencesall came up at once, but because it felt
pretty formal, I went and did learn alot more learning on it so that I could

(16:51):
make sure that I was really not justgoing, this is my experience, let's
just wing it and tell you what I did andsay that's the way everybody should go.
I went and learned a ton and so Ifeel like I deepened my knowledge
on the topic, which was all about,entrepreneurial mindset or that internal
work to get that Outside success.
And so I named it different things orfinding that way to, create possibility

(17:13):
in your career and in services that areout there by working on the stuff on
the inside, sort of setting yourselfup as an entrepreneur on the inside
so you can perform, in that way onthe outside and have success and
fulfillment and all of those things.
But I didn't have greatwords to describe it myself.
And so going and finding,what's the evidence say?
What are the other resources?

(17:34):
What's the best way to teach this stuff?
What are the main principles that wecan talk to that people will understand?
I deepened my knowledge on that topictenfold because of that confluence
of assignments on the same topic.
It's an interesting process.
I find the process of developing a coursein curriculum, they say that you should
know and how does one measure this?

(17:54):
I don't know, but they say that oneshould know roughly 10 times as much
content as you're about to teach.
So you should have such an unbelievablydeep well of knowledge in the topic.
And I emphasize knowledge becausewhat I'm finding more and more is that
worked really well to just simply teach.
Like I, I got pretty solid memoryand I could, I know a lot of things.

(18:17):
Yeah.
But
then there's this shift thathappens between teaching from
the place of knowledge andthen teaching from the police.
Sounds cheesy, but then teachingfrom a place of wisdom or experience.
and that's been a fun transitiontoo, of there's so much to be learned
when it comes to developing a coursebecause of just how much you actually
need to know to speak with confidence.
Yeah.
And that's totally doablewithout any experience.

(18:39):
Like anybody can just study and nowadaysanybody could get chat GPT to write them
a script and sound beautifully eloquent inhow they speak and brilliant on a topic.
Yeah.
But I'm feeling more and more thatwhat people are interested in is not
just a knowledge, but they want totalk to people who have that deep
of knowledge and significant wisdomand experience surrounding it.

(19:01):
And that's been an interestingshift in my own process as I develop
courses and curriculums as well.
Totally.
and I'm hearing that more andmore that the humanness that we
bring is more valuable than everin this era of at your fingertips.
Somebody could put the whole coursetogether, but it's you telling your story

(19:23):
and telling about how you tried thisand giving case studies and examples and
experiences and times when this happenedand you, here's how you handled it.
And that personification of the contentis where we have to stand out in this
new world of limitless information atour fingertips that, anybody could put

(19:44):
together, somebody with no experience inan area could put a course together or
a workshop together, or a book togethereven, that our humanness and expertise and
experience is more important than ever.
Yeah.
that's certainly somethingI'm exploring more and more.
I've noticed over the last six monthsto a year, sales have gone down.
yeah, the economy is the way the economyis, so that might play into it, but

(20:09):
talking with other online educatorsand other people who have online
businesses, what we're all finding isexactly what you said is now with the
ridiculous oversaturation with knowledgeand information that is literally at
your fingertips and anybody can do it.
I feel like there's a shiftand I don't know how to.
I don't wanna say the word capitalize,but I'm gonna say the word capitalize.

(20:29):
Yeah.
Not as if I wanna profit off this,like some capitalist, which I
kind of am, but you need to shift
your business when sales are down.
That's
it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But how to capitalize on this reality,both as a practitioner and as an educator,
and as an entrepreneur and business owner.
Just recognizing that there's thishuge opportunity right now with the
availability of the tech, the chatGPTs and things like that, that are
out there that make our jobs easier.

(20:52):
Yeah.
But in so doing, there's also thisother thing that's happening where
people are like, this is great, butwhat about the human connection?
So finding the opportunities andthe ways to shift business and
how we do things, again clinicallyas well as with other business.
it's been an interesting journey andI'm not too sure where it's going, but

(21:12):
I certainly sense a shift in things.
Yeah, so this is super interesting to Ireally appreciate you bringing that up.
'cause Yeah, I found that there.
there've been some lulls, like a couplebig lulls in the last couple of years in
my business too, where I'm like, whoa,do I have to change something big time?
Or is this, one of those thingswhere we ride it out and not in my

(21:34):
OT practice, that can always be full.
it's, I keep that small so that Ican do all this interesting stuff and
create things and, reach people ona bigger scale and have that impact
by helping the helpers and they helpother people if they're doing well too.
But it's an interesting thing becauseI've often had this theory, which I'm
starting to take some chunks out of nowand because the world's changing is that,

(21:58):
so my ACTivate Vitality program, its mainstrength, is that it's a community of
international therapy business owners.
It's all OTs.
Though I would certainly invite otherprofessions in, and we come together
collaboratively to figure things out.
There's some course content around atransformative process using acceptance

(22:18):
and commitment therapy to build people'scapacity to be there with the difficult
stuff and be more resilient in the faceof the challenges of life and business.
But really, I feel like the magicis in these group coaching calls and
these community calls where peopleare there together and they're from
different countries and they're sharingin, oh my gosh, like this happened.
Or I don't know how to handle that.

(22:39):
Or I'm spinning out about thisthing that happened in my business
or in my life or in them together.
And that there's the wisdom of otherpeople at who are empathizing and
validating and sharing how they'vesolved similar problems or just even
spitballing it together and having aspace to, to be open about that and
collaborative and not feel so alone.
'cause many of us are solo practitioners.

(23:01):
and.
I've often found that harderto sell than a clinical course.
or a technical course.
People are wanting to invest in that CEUs,do I get CEUs for that sort of thing?
but I really stand strong inthe value of this community.
And so it's interesting to think about howI try to deal with that in my business.

(23:22):
But I know you in your business you'reright now creating a really big course
with the intention of actually nothaving a lot of community with it
so that it can stand alone and havesome momentum on its own, and have
lots of comprehensive information,but not necessarily community.
So tell me about your thinking on that.
yeah, good question.

(23:42):
There's, I'm gonna put a couplemental pins on my, my, my
cognitive bulletin board here.
Okay.
yes.
the plan with this course, so justfor everybody listening is I'm working
on this course as we've alluded to anumber of times, and this course is
sort of for the person who is callit two to five years outta school.
they got their legs, theyknow what they're doing.
Yeah.
they're out of that oh myGod, what do I do now phase.

(24:03):
And they're starting to make someactual decisions as far as where
one wants to go with their business.
it could be for someone who's stillin school for all that matters,
but I know that two to five years,and the whole idea is to provide a
course that is okay, how do you setyourself up as a business owner?
And you do it as, as consciously aspossible to make sure that you avoid

(24:24):
burnout, that you actually love thebusiness that you've built, you enjoy
the people you wanna work with, thatyou know how to market in a way that
doesn't feel icky to do all the thingsthat we need to do, that nobody teaches
us in school, but do it in a way that'sdesigned for wellness practitioners.
'cause Lord knows I've taken a tonof business courses out there that
are mostly just like, how do youget 10 x year, blah, blah, blah.
And it's just like, this is, yeah.

(24:45):
So it's like a business coursethat doesn't feel like it.
And quite frankly, it's actuallythe psychology of the body course.
I used to teach in disguise as a businesscourse because that's basically what one
needs to understand in order to developbusinesses, how to do the inner work.
So
yeah,
that's what this is, And I could go onand on it, but to answer your specific
question about this idea of prerecordedcontent and this, the shifting terrain,

(25:08):
well, what I'm, I'm contemplatingnow, particularly over the last couple
months, putting everything togetheris, I have to make a pivot because
the demand for prerecorded coursesexists, but it's still going down.
So the whole ethos, the, one ofthe reasons I started my education
company in the first place wasfrustration with continuing education.
Yeah.
it sucks that we aremandated to do this stuff.

(25:30):
In, in, I'm vaguely aware that OTsdon't have the same mandates as say,
acupuncture, massage, and a coupleof the others, like physio power.
There are some
differences we have to docontinuing ed, but it's less strict.
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so we're all, in some degreeor another, we're mandated
to take continuing education.
Yeah.
And what's so fascinating aboutit is we have to do it, but.

(25:50):
So few of us actually want to, becausethe, almost all of the courses out
there are like another technique.
Yeah.
And in the first, five to 10 years, sure.
We like to collect techniques.
So many of us are just like, let'scollect them all because we think more
techniques is a better practitioner.
Which at some point in time we allrealized actually you know what, funnily
enough, I learned ACT, eight yearsago and it's literally all I need.
Or something like that.

(26:10):
yeah.
We all need to take this.
We don't really want to take it.
And then the things we actually dowanna take tend to be quite expensive.
We have to travel for it.
But so many of us, we've gotfamilies, we've got work.
And in that three to five yearperiod we're paying off student loans
and we're like, I what the heck?
Yeah.
So the idea behind my company wasto provide the absolute highest
quality continuing education atthe most affordable price in a way

(26:32):
that is time, conscious that theycan take it whenever they want.
And that's the niche, right?
Yeah.
Abandon it.
Really accessible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very accessible on all accounts fortime, for money, for everything.
And I don't wanna abandon that, 'causethat's still really important to me.
Yeah.
So what I'm thinking of doingnow is sell that as, it's like
you can do this on your own.
You've got every single thing youneed to succeed as a business wellness

(26:55):
business owner by doing it on your own.
And that's gonna be one price, avery approachable, affordable price.
Yeah.
But
then there will be this otherprice where it's okay, also.
You can take all of the onlinestuff and every week or two weeks
we're gonna have a community call orwe're gonna get together and we're
going to talk about these things.
And that's tier two.
And then tier three is, I'm actuallygonna offer it in person, I think.

(27:18):
I'm gonna offer an in-person versionof it where it's these are eight
Saturdays where we get together.
There's 10 or 12 of us at one ofthe colleges that I used to teach
at and probably will teach at again.
I'm entertaining that as well.
Just really acknowledging that so many ofus in the wellness field, we are lonely.
Yeah.
And the opportunity to takeeducation online is really nice.
Yeah.

(27:39):
But also, so many of us cravethat community and connections.
So shifting my business more to, tooffer and meet all of those needs
from the people who just wanna learn.
They wanna do it on their owntime to the people who want to
connect and build relationships.
That's really cool.
when did you make that shift mentallyto thinking you're gonna add these

(27:59):
different kind of community elements?
I think it was, I was mid shift whenwe were at the, ambassador meetup.
Yeah.
Where we all went together becauseI was kind of like, in Palm Springs?
In Palm Springs, yeah.
Really recognizing that was abad month for me financially,
like the number of sales.
I'm like, oh man, okay.
this is scary because if I havetwo months like this, then that's

(28:20):
a pretty strong indication.
Things are the tides are shifting fast.
So I knew I had to change something,and it was right around that time,
just a couple months ago, a monthand a half ago, where I realized I,
I need to make a shift and a prettypowerful pivot to use that language.
Yep.
I wasn't too sure what it wasgoing to be, but those ideas were
just percolating around Then.
Yeah, it makes a ton of sense too.

(28:42):
'cause I was, I had a bunch of stuffgoing on at the same time and multiple
events piling up in person strangely too.
And, we spend so much time in this onlineworld and I feel like I'm really great at
making online connections and beautifulcommunity spaces that are transformative
and that sort of thing through onlineconnection, but then showing up and being
there in real life with real people, thedepth of the connection is so different.

(29:08):
we got so used to doing stuff onlinein the pandemic and stuff that it's
almost like a Oh, right, right.
That exists too.
And actually it really is,deeply impactful to have that.
There are so many systems that areconnecting together when we are
in person with each other that,we can't see, we can't detect.
We just, we feel the difference.

(29:29):
I'm like 99th percentile introvert.
Hey, like when the pandemiccame, I'm like, thank God I don't
have to see anybody for months.
This is great.
Maybe even years.
this is exactly, you know, there's agroup of us people out there listening.
You, you, you know who you are.
Totally.
Yeah.
and I was so happy with it and Ilike, after the world opened up

(29:52):
again, I'm like, oh no, it's fine.
I'll just carry on doing this.
And I maintained that, that level ofisolation for quite some time afterwards.
Yeah.
And then I'm like, okay,this has gotta end.
And then I'd go to a conferenceand I didn't like it.
I'm like, this isn't the vibe that I want.
It's just, there's too muchnoise and there's people,
and there's like exhausting.
It's all the peopling.
It's hi, how you doing?

(30:13):
Yeah, I'm this personand here's what I do.
And it's just, so what I'm realizingtoo as I think about these in-person
things that I am interested in bothparticipating and facilitating.
It's not necessarilytargeted at introverts.
Yeah.
But it's like, okay, we've got thiscraving to connect with people,
but I would love to create anenvironment and a situation where
people can connect and it's quiet.

(30:33):
it's like there's no loud, there's nohaving to talk over people and I don't
know about you, but when you're at likea dinner party or a potluck or something
like that, and there's conversationsthat are making different patterns
across the table, it fries my brain.
Yeah.
I can't do it.
Totally.
And I, I feel as in my personalitytoo, I'm just, I'm not great at
jumping into those conversations.

(30:54):
I'll try, but the more dominantfolks will always talk over me.
it's just that sort of presence in abig group, I'm not big, I end up then
feeling like, oh, nobody even wants tohear what I have to say 'cause I can't
even get a word in edgewise sort of thing.
yeah.
Yeah.
I a hundred percent agree.
I'm just thinking back tothe Jane Ambassador event.
There were a number of times in whichthere were these big get togethers and
people are talking and I'd just, I'd goand stand at a table and just be like.

(31:17):
It sucks.
I go sit somewhere else and then sitat a table and eventually somebody
like yourself or somebody else wouldcome and sit at the introvert table
like you come sit okay, this is better.
This is better.
We were literally sitting on atable that was furthest removed
from the big group that was quieter.
It
was beautiful.

(31:39):
And I think we started naming atthe introvert table so when the more
extroverted people came around, they'relike, maybe I don't wanna be here.
You guys,
what's with this vibe?
You're way too calm andquiet and speaking softly.
Exactly.
I love you, all the extrovertsout there absolutely love you, but
absolutely
there should be an introverttable at every gathering.
Totally.
We're the ones with the ear plugs in.

(32:01):
Extra sensitive souls.
I went to the pool party because itwas a couple days into, and I was
like, okay, I didn't know exactly if,like I, I just walked in on my own and
I tried to join a few conversationsthat were really and I was like, I'll
just stand here for a little bit.
Okay, yeah, no, that wasn't my people come
stand
over here.
Maybe I'll just go in the pool.

(32:21):
And then Ildi came,
oh, thank God for Ildi.
God always thank God for
Ildi.
Totally.
Oh, that's funny.
so you are, so I can totally see howthat timing would make sense that
we were doing some engaging that youare like, okay, I'd like to create an
intentional kind of in-person engagementor and you've got these levels, which

(32:44):
kind of complicates it from a businessperspective, but you can have some kind
of cycles and automations and thingstoo, where you can be selling one thing
constantly and then having these otherkind of streams that you can build in.
but it is a move away from the original.
I remember you telling me, over lunchabout the, your original idea, it was
gonna be pretty simple from a businessperspective, that this thing's gonna

(33:06):
be great, it's gonna be comprehensive,it's gonna be pretty hands off.
People can buy it when they need it.
So this complicates things a little bit.
How do you feel about that
?Feel?
I feel pretty fine with it.
Yeah.
the backend complicationstuff, I actually enjoy it.
I enjoy the puzzle of figuringout how these things fit together.
Yeah.
And.
Along with the complication, strangelyenough, I believe also comes freedom

(33:30):
because what I'm realizing more and moreas I get through, you know, I'm on year
six of my education company and I've kindof made all the courses that I want to
make or can make, you know, I'm kind ofout of prerecorded courses to make and
through working with people like yourselfand Ildi and the eight other instructors

(33:50):
that have got contributing to this course,all of which minus Paul, the marketing guy
are Jane ambassadors, when I'm coming torealize more and more is I really enjoy
helping other educators create content.
Like it's been a real joy for me towork with like you and bring a vision
to life and turn it into a course.

(34:10):
I really enjoy that process andadditionally what I'm discovering through
it is I. When I first started AIM, somy companies AIM Wellness Education.
When I first started aim, I wasjust on the heels of eight years
of teaching this psychology courseand I taught it every two months.
So every two months I get a newcohort and it was a nine week course
and it was three hours every week.

(34:31):
And I did that for eight years.
I mean, I got 6,000 hours of teachingthis course in and I still loved it.
Oh, okay.
And yeah, I was thinking in my mind,oh my gosh, like it would be like a
monologue that you've done over and over.
Like you'd be tired ofit, but No, you loved it.
So one would think
Yeah.
other things that I did thatwith like orthopedic assessment
and like needling techniques andthat I got bored of real quick.

(34:53):
Yeah.
But for some reason I, I just, I lovedtalking about it largely because I needed
to learn these lessons, but also I'vebeen interested in, self-development
and inner work since I was a teenager.
Yeah.
So I promise, I'm long way rounding myway to answering your question here.
We always go a long wayaround on this podcast.
It's all good.
So I started this educationcompany with this idea in mind.

(35:16):
okay, I'm going to take everything I'velearned through the years and thousands
of hours of teaching this content andI'm gonna turn it into an online course.
And this happened like just before COVID,but I did the tiniest little bit of market
research you could possibly imagine, whichis to say, ask like 15 people I knew and.
the need for the content that I'minterested in teaching is very high.

(35:39):
The demand for it is very low.
So I thought, okay, what I'm gonna dois I'm gonna start an education company.
I'll do the thing where there'shigh demand, and then I'll
just kinda like sneak attack.
I'll add some of this self-awareness,self-development stuff in.
And after years of trying to do thatand it failing over and over again, like

(35:59):
literally the number of times I tried todevelop a psychology of the body or some
sort, and it getting almost no traction.
It was devastating.
It's oh, I've got this passionand I know people love it.
I've got, it's good.
You see the impact?
Yeah.
Yes.
And when I teach it in person, when peopleare forced to go to it, 'cause it's part
of a college curriculum, they love it.
So I know it's good.

(36:20):
And yet why won't they buy it?
Nobody wants to buy it.
So here I am teaching all these techniquecourses, which I zero interest in it.
It's just not interesting to me anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Trying to find a way to teach what I'mpassionate about and it not working.
and then the idea occurred to me througha number of confluent events that, hold

(36:41):
on a second, it turns out a big part ofbusiness is all the exact same things
when I talk about being a practitioner,self-awareness, I keep saying that one,
'cause it's like an essential thing.
Authenticity, understanding, alignment.
really recognizing thespiritual aspects of burnout.
It's like rarely about overwork.
You know, it turns out people canwork a lot before they get burned out.

(37:03):
It all fits into business.
So when I made that click, I'm like,okay, this is enjoyable and I can
do it, and there is a demand forit, and it lets me fill that need.
to answer your question, how do Ifeel about the extra amount of work?
Great.
Because that extra amount ofwork is doing something that
I actually am enjoying doing.
And it's information thatI feel very strongly about.

(37:26):
So I feel pretty good with it.
So if I may reflect back what I'm hearing,there was this set of content that was
about, inner work that was previouslypaired, alongside clinical education.
and people had to take it becausemaybe it was coming along with

(37:46):
clinical education on its own.
It wasn't really selling.
and so the idea of now pairingit with the tangible of business
education is the thing that makesit likely more easy to sell.
Right.
That kind of, that it's going toreally enhance business for people
and that in that way, selling itas a business course is the thing.

(38:08):
That's the sneak attack.
The new sneak attack.
That's it, so to speak.
Did I get that right?
You did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting 'cause I'm in that space.
That's the space I've been in.
But I still find it trickyto, because I still hesitate
to say I'm a business coach.
I think that's part of it.
Actually, I have a sticky on here.

(38:29):
It says "confession. I really am abusiness coach." I that's maybe a
podcast episode coming out or maybe amarketing campaign or something like that.
'cause I so hesitate to say that I'mgonna give you all of the technical
strategy to run your business whenmy audience is international too.
Like I don't know exactly how toset up a business in Michigan or

(38:50):
in New York or that sort of thing.
And I don't really want to claim tobe the nitty gritty of business coach.
However, everything I'm teaching.
Creates that foundation.
You can find those answers, right?
But that's that foundation to show up asan entrepreneur, show up as a resilient
business person, a person who can thinkin these ways, and roll with things and

(39:11):
get curious and excited about stuff.
And, and excited about those challenges,just like you've demonstrated too, whereas
a lot of people can get stuck in, ohno, I, that's too many technical things.
If I've got too many movingparts, I can't do that.
I'm just gonna stick with this.
Whereas you're like, Hey, here's a need.
I'm feeling this.
I can see, let's figure out how toadd on those layers of upgrading or,

(39:33):
shifting into other models and stuff.
Right.
And, you know, you know, that, thatactually gets to an interesting
sort of segue or particular point.
And it is about burnout and resilience.
it's something that, that.
Virtually every single wellnesspractitioner needs to understand
intimately and soon, like the soonerpractitioners can really understand

(39:53):
what leads to burnout and startimplementing systems to prevent
it to the best of one's ability.
'cause I'm not sold on the fact that it'sa hundred percent preventable, the better.
And one of the biggest thingsthat I've come to realize over the
years, largely through my own livedexperience, has to do with alignment.
So alignment takes alot of soul searching.
Like you gotta do a lot of innerwork to figure out the fact that

(40:14):
it turns out I really don't likeworking with perimenopausal women.
maybe not that much soul searching, likeyou, you get these clients that you end up
working with that totally zap your energy.
And one of the things that canlead to burnout is developing
practice that's not in alignment.
So you wanna have a successful business, asustainable business that's burnout proof.
You gotta do some work and you gottafigure out who do I wanna work with?

(40:37):
Why do I wanna work with them?
And those might seem like prettyeasy questions to answer, but
for a lot of us, they're not.
They require quite a bitof delving into the deep,
and it's so much deeper the way like.
Many business coaches wouldsay, you need to niche down.
that's that on the surface,that's what you're saying.
But it is the pathway of introspectionand self knowing and self-awareness

(41:01):
and paying attention to how you'reimpacted and energized and depleted
by different things, is a reallyimportant pathway to do that well.
It's not just choosing a niche.
It's.
that inner alignment and whereyou feel like that, where
you can get into flow, right?
there are certain kind ofareas where we can notice that.

(41:22):
there's a Mark Cuban quote that I'vebeen throwing into some of my things
lately about follow your effort, notyour passion" is the quote, but what
he's really meaning is like pay attentionto those places where you'll like,
you'll go and do all the research andyou wanna learn more and you're like
voraciously consuming and finding infoand getting excited when you see another
thing on that like that's the effort.

(41:43):
Very often it is your passion, butpaying attention to that cue of there
being, a momentum and a propulsionthat's almost driven beyond your
effort, which can also burn you out.
You have to pay attention to that.
The more passionate or the moreThat you're in that flow, you
could sometimes go on and work andforget to take care of yourself.

(42:04):
What I found about that flow isI kind of view it as momentum.
Is my personality and the personalityof a lot of the entrepreneurial types.
like people like you and I and otherpeople who don't just do one thing but got
a lot of things in the air is I'm reallyinterested in something until I get it.
Until I understand how it works andthen you're not, and then I'm not

(42:25):
interested in it, but sometimes it takesa lot of momentum and a lot of work
to get to the point where I understandsomething like building my company.
It took five years to get that tothe point where it's okay, I really
genuinely, deeply understand the processof building an online education business.
Like I get it.
Yeah.
But
I'm so invested in it now that even thoughit's not my passion, even though it's not

(42:49):
the thing I really want, the momentum isso great that I just continue doing it.
So it started out being.
A great thing to do.
Like I enjoyed every bit of it,even though I wasn't interested in
some of the topics I was teaching.
I was interested in how do I do this?
So I, I think part of the self-awarenessis continuing to check in on that,

(43:10):
continuing to reevaluate the why andthe purpose because it can change.
And maybe once you've solved the problem,you're just not interested in it anymore.
And when you keep pushinglike you're interested in
it, it also leads to burnout.
Oh yes.
Oh my goodness.
So the next thing I'm gonna say, wecan edit it out if you end up not
wanting to share this, but what you'rereminding me of in this moment is when

(43:34):
you were tell, like you told me exactlythat, that once you've been interested
in something, you're done with it.
And that was actually a bit of thefoundation of creating this course
initially, where you were like, Hey,why don't I wrap up everything I
know in one great course with somegreat people, that this course is
gonna be the thing people need.
And then I can actually likenot be involved in it anymore.

(43:55):
Like it was a bit of that.
I've mastered it, I understand it,I don't wanna do it anymore, but
why don't I let it do its thing,like create some automaticity.
So again, we can edit thisout if it's not a great thing.
Oh no, but has that shifted?
Is that, are you tellingme that's shifted?
I'm so grateful for thatquestion and absolutely.
let's leave this part of the conversation.
Okay.
Okay.
Because a, as a guy who talks aboutburnout all the time, I was pretty

(44:17):
near the basement of burnout over thelast couple months, like it's been
brutal for me Over the last few months.
So during those conversations, it waslike, I gotta figure something out.
I gotta get an exit.
'cause this is so unsustainable.
I'm exhausted witheverything I've been doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So during that conversation over, callit a month and a half, two months ago.

(44:38):
Yep.
Genuinely, that was the intentionand inspiration coming from a
desperation, I'm wiped, I hate this.
I do not enjoy the company I have builtnow over the, since then, having made
a few decisions, I'm thinking, okay.
what I, I got back to basics.
okay, Jess, why did you startthis company in the first place?
I love teaching, love teaching.

(45:01):
I believe in accessible education, andI'm super interested in having in-depth
conversations and building relationshipswith people over a period of time where
the context is, let's do the work.
So I
went, okay, these are the basics.
Okay.
If that's it, and I finally figuredout the entry point into that, which is

(45:23):
the sneak attack business course, okay?
Why not do the shift into cohort basedonline or in-person type stuff, where I
get to build those intimate relationshipsover a period of time, right?
I get to talk about the importantstuff that I'm really passionate about.
So in that basement of burnout, in thatarea of just like I give up, I need to

(45:45):
finish this last project and tap out andbuy a tiny little boat and just float down
the river until eternity comes, right?
That forced me to really lookand ask the questions, why?
Why am I still doing this?
'cause I could just tap out right now.
Wow.
So you, in this process of kindof creating the sunset, the sunset

(46:06):
course, and walking away andfloating into your own sunset, you
found a path to more authenticity.
But, and in that, I can see anumber of things that happened.
So you stopped your practice, sodidn't reregister for your license.
You engaged a bunch of otherpeople who you feel aligned with.

(46:27):
So that, and because there was that senseof deepening in person, interpersonal
connection authentically, that.
I would imagine that the process ofyou choosing people and then working
collaboratively with them to createthe different elements created
probably some refreshing inspiration,some bring some vitality into the
consideration and then, but because youdisrupted your whole workflow, right?

(46:51):
Like you weren't really doing anythinglike you normally would, that creates
a little bit more room for reenergizingand creativity and thinking of things
differently because you're out ofthe mundane of the day to day and
that brought you to a place of,actually this is what I want to do.
Yeah.
It sounds about right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Really cool.

(47:12):
Tack in on top of it,some epic life stuff.
I got a really sick family memberand sister moving and all like
it rains, it pours situation.
Yeah.
It just got to the point where therewasn't a choice but to reevaluate.
Wow.
That's really beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
'cause like it's that Oh my pleasure.
People often, in roles like ours hesitateto tell people about the basement.

(47:38):
That yeah.
We don't even wannalook at it ourselves and
and so from that place, and I can seewhere a lot of that sort of, those
roots of your in experiences of mindfulawareness in Chinese medicine and spending
time with the monks and all of the waysyou are a showing up as a spiritual human.
You are spending time.

(47:59):
I know you are spending time with thosechallenges and being present with them,
but From that place you're sharingauthentically and the people who are
listening who are in their basement, Ithink will really feel that inspiration.
There's a leading byexample, by reflecting.
Making some intentional changes, butstill leaving yourself some room to

(48:19):
pivot that a bit more and find that paththat's fulfilling that maybe doesn't
require you to run away from the world.
Yeah.
I'd say listening to, to likereally listening to the, to however
one's deepest self communicates.
Whether that's through completeutter lethargy like myself, like

(48:40):
nap o'clock at noon, or brainfog or what, whatever it is.
However, one's deepest self communicates.
just listen.
Yeah.
There was a time where I had a prettysolid meditation practice that then
there was a few months where I was alwayscrying at the end of it, and I was like,

(49:02):
I don't think I wanna meditate anymore.
and it was more so that like I wasgoing through a hard time and the
quiet, allowed what was the hard timeto what was really there to surface.
And that was important.
And there was also a practice of.
That it wasn't starting my day the wayI really wanted, what I, what it used to
do for me, put me in this kind of likesuper focused and in tune kind of place.

(49:26):
It was putting me into to theemotions that were important
to deal with at that time.
So I shifted my morning routine, andI don't think I defined it as such.
I defined it as well, clearly startingout my day crying isn't what I wanna do.
and I started puttering with plantsand being really mindful about just I
have a bit of an AP obsessive plant, acollection and, but like that connection

(49:47):
with nature and going through the pacesof checking in on what does this plant
need and what's going on there and do Ineed to move that to a different window
and maybe I should transplant that, ormaybe I could give this to a friend.
Or like these little things thatjust came with the nature of
having many plants to care for.
that changed it.
And it was a bit of awarmup to starting my day.
that was mindful, that was present,that was integrated with nature.

(50:09):
It was doing a lot of the same things.
the science says it's actually doinga lot of the same things for my brain
that meditation had when it wasn'tnecessarily the crying meditation.
and, but there for many years I shamedmyself for abandoning meditation and
not getting back to that practice.
and so it's an interesting sort of thing.
I love how you acknowledge that.
Do this, like the way you get connectedwith yourself in the way that you need to.

(50:32):
what are the signs, what arethe ways that you connect?
What are the ways you pay attention?
Because it doesn't necessarily look likea yoga mat in A zen meditation position.
I'm so grateful you said that.
I'm so grateful.
'cause that's one of the, that.
I don't know.
We need to come up with a name for it.
we should call it like achat g pt, bits of advice.
it's like you, you ask ai, what I'mfeeling burnt out, what do I do?

(50:56):
And it's you should meditate.
And it's like, how should I meditate,grab a little cushion and sit down.
So it's like this super standard adviceis to meditate by sitting down or but
the reality is it is so fundamentallydifferent for each and every person.
Yeah.
There might be a bunch of people whoall find meditating on a cushion, works
for them, but out of wager there's farmore of us where the actual solution to
getting in touch with the much neededresource is tinkering with plants or

(51:21):
getting into the wood shop or justgoing for a walk or whatever it is.
I'm so grateful you mentioned that 'causemindfulness and tuning into oneself,
it is got as many different flavorsas there are people, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
So occupational therapy, theoccupation bit is stuff we do right?
Things we do that occupy our time.

(51:41):
It's not just our job, which is more howour English language uses occupation.
And so it's so interesting too that asan occupational therapist, I really pay
attention to why we do things, how we dothings, what do those things do for us?
What, what needs do they satisfy?
What, how could we enhance, how couldwe bring in a bit of a different
activity that could, give thattherapeutic effect that you need?

(52:05):
And so occupational therapy is oftenusing occupations to provide therapeutic
impact, but also enabling people toengage in their meaningful occupations.
So it's both the therapy and the outcome.
and so geeking out on why and howand what the things we do are is

(52:25):
definitely an area of passion.
For me, and I love talking about itwith other people who don't necessarily
come from that frame of reference.
I'm curious about something then,'cause one of my favorite sayings
of of all time is how you do onething is how you do all things.
and I strongly believe in it.
if you pay attention in yourmindful, in washing the dishes,
you're probably going to be mindfulin many other things in your life.

(52:48):
So I thought about that saying asyou were describing one's occupation.
And how does that land, howdoes that fit in the OT model?
Or is it just some sort ofpithy saying, that sounds great.
So my body had a resistanceto the statement and then
I was like, okay, hold on.
listen.
What's he saying?
And am I hearing it?

(53:10):
Are you saying like the word integritycomes to mind and integrity when you
dissect that word is if you took atube of metal, that there would be the
same kind of, composition throughout.
There wouldn't be a flaw.
There's integrity throughout,there's a consistency of this
thing is the same throughout.
And so if you're showing up withintegrity in your life, in your

(53:30):
being that you would show up asfully for this task or that task, or
is that kind of what you're saying?
Yeah.
Yeah.
that's what I'm saying.
if you're, if you put away laundrybecause you hate laundry and you're
like, goddamn laundry versus, I don'treally like laundry, but I'm gonna show
up in the same way that I wanna showup in all of the interactions I have.
So yeah, integrity is a great way of

(53:51):
putting it.
And so you're using it in a wayto support people in being more
intentional in their lives, likeshowing up in all of their things as a
shift, like something to work toward.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I have to say, so I think wheremy resistance came in is as
having a neurodivergent brain.
And so I have ADHD and, some, likethe pile of laundry can feel like

(54:18):
the most impossible task in the wholeworld to me, and life needs to go on.
Sometimes the laundry is contained in apile of resentment and shame and like a
battleground of conflict in my marriage.
Or, like there, there can beso many things layered on that
pile of laundry that I'm like.

(54:40):
I'm not doing that pile of laundry.
It's gonna stay there.
there's Sometimes it can beso sticky and resistant, which
is like overly complicated.
And, and at the same time, so true.
And so I need to bring inself-compassion for the fact
that my house might be a mess.
And at the same time, my kids are lovedand my business is carrying on and

(55:01):
I'm making a difference in the world.
And, and some thingsare not going as well.
And that, and so I think where myresistance came into that, I. was that
sense of, oh, that would work against myself-compassion if I'm like, no, I need
to show up for all things as fully andI'm not doing that if I haven't brushed

(55:22):
and flossed my teeth, if I haven't putthe laundry away after I did it, if
I haven't made a healthy meal, right?
That in order for me to do allof these things, I'd probably
actually need to not work.
If I wanted to be consistent with allof those things, like I just don't
have the capacity to put as much effortinto all things or in all seasons.
It's not to say that I don't ever flossor I don't ever put the laundry away,

(55:45):
but I'd love to hear your responseto that because I want to acknowledge
there's such, so much beautiful intentionin that sense of showing up fully for
yourself and caring for yourself, andcaring for your environment fully.
That doing those things isworthwhile to show up fully for,
and I love that spirit of it.
And, also had some resistance that Ithink came from a bit of my capacity.

(56:10):
Yeah.
first off, I'm really grateful for thedegree of self-awareness of the laundry
pile being more than a laundry pilebecause laundry piles are always more than
laundry piles always, and dishes, puttingdishes in the dishwasher is always more
like, everything's more than it is Yeah.
in the philosophical sense.
So I'm really grateful that you, shonea light on that particular reality.
Yeah.
So thank you for that.
And yeah, it definitely makes sense.

(56:31):
Like when I hear you explainit that way, I go, yeah.
That, that saying it, it isovergeneralizing the way that
individuals practice life.
so I suppose if I really narrow in on theintention of why I enjoy that saying so
much is it is a saying of mindfulness.
It's when you are doing a thing.
do thing, be there like when youare having a co, when you are making

(56:54):
supper for the family, whether it's99 cent Kraft Dinner, if that's
still a thing or the most beautiful,healthy thing on the planet.
But nevertheless, the way you're doing itis I'm making dinner from a family right
now because I love them so damn much.
Yeah.
So I suppose that was the underlyingintention is just a mindfulness thing.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.

(57:14):
And I remember when I was doing myACT training, one of the strategies
for practicing mindfulness daily wasto pick a task that actually is a bit
grating and irritating in your day.
Make that a mindfulness practicejust for a period of time.
take a week or something.
And so for me it was dishes and Iremember hating dishes as a child.
My mom told me, taught me aboutwhat a psychosomatic, Like illness

(57:37):
was because I would get rasheson my arms doing the dishes.
She was like, I don'tthink that's the water.
I think that's that youhate the dishes that much.
And still I had to do the dishes.
And so I and always in our house too,like somebody else's job is to unload it.
And if somebody else has donethat, the dishes don't pile up.
But here we are, two loadsof dishes on the dish counter

(58:00):
and we can't even make supper.
And it feels More than the dishes.
So I was like, okay.
Every day as I'm starting my day,as I'm doing that puttering part
of the day, I'm gonna do the dishesand I'm just gonna do the dishes.
I'm gonna notice the dishes and I'mgonna be present in the sounds and
the sensations and the things as anintentional mindfulness practice.
And I came to actually savor it.
Like I was like, Ienjoyed the sorting of it.

(58:22):
I started noticing that I wouldget all the same size cups and
I'd put those together and I mightarrange them in a way that was a
bit more organized than haphazard.
And I'd grab all the butterknives together and I'd do that.
And then I'd stack up the forks andthere was this sort of intentionality
of appreciating the pace of this momentwhere I can be present in a task.
and I came to actually really enjoy thatas part of my day because I intentionally

(58:46):
made a shift toward doing it mindfully.
So if I hear what that kind of similarflavors of what you're saying, it's not
so much, Show up in everything in yourlife, and do everything well and or don't.
Right?
it's not that sort of thing.
It's a sense of, having that awarenessto be present in the day-to-day tasks.
Yeah.

(59:06):
Like an aspirational statement for me.
It's certainly aspirational.
Yeah.
I
like that.
We went to Peru for five weeks,when my kids were like six and
eight or something like that.
And there was limited internet accessin the house that we were renting.
And I remember seeing them come toreally enjoy, and we just got into
this rhythm where I remember they werehaving fun, sweeping or playing with

(59:30):
a bag, and running around with that.
And, and I came to enjoy like walkingto the market to get food and the things
we would encounter along the way becauselife just slowed down and we had limited.
Access to technology or urgency.
And we had five weeks, it's notlike we're in a hurry to get to
Machu Picchu and get out of there.

(59:50):
it was that we are living in theSacred Valley for this time and how
are we gonna spend our time todayand how are we gonna keep warm?
There weren't heaters inthis place and it was cold.
And, and, where are we gonna go andfind, how do we find other ingredients?
'cause that store sells chicken
and
that one sells, this other stuff.
And there wasn't a big supermarketnearby and we couldn't go to

(01:00:11):
the supermarket every time.
And it was, yeah, a very, amuch more mindful pace of being.
And I often think back to that in,oh, how do we remember to do that
in the middle of our busy lives?
Mm-hmm.
It doesn't need to be as busy as it's.
That's a really good question, andI'm curious if you've got an answer
to it, but it's the problem of, I,I've lived a pretty fantastic life

(01:00:33):
where I've had a lot of phenomenalexperiences and the most recent,
like genuinely impactful experiences.
I had the opportunity to go to Columbiaand I spent a little over a month
living with these super isolated andremote tribes, one of which the only
other people that had ever been to thetribe was the guy who brought us there.
So it was like an unbelievable experience.

(01:00:55):
Absolute isolation and magicalexperiences to the point where
it's I can't even explain it.
Like things that defy explanationand reality, where the word, the only
word that actually suffices is magic.
Wow.
and I remember one of the last dayssitting on the beach with Bri, my partner
and, Eli, the guy who, who hosted usdown there and just being like, okay,

(01:01:15):
we're about to head back to Calgary.
And like my whole reality's changed mywhole way of perceiving what is real has
changed and how do I bring that back?
And then I got back and all my friendswere like, dude, what happened?
You're a totally different being.
And I'm like, I know, right?
and six months later I'm back to life.
Yeah.
So it's such a good question.
And it's not just, like thatdoesn't have to be the experience.

(01:01:37):
'cause it can be a two week vacation inthe Okanagan or it can be a weekend long
ayahuasca ceremony, or it can be any oneof these things that kinda shake life
up, re reestablish pace, bring a degreeof mindfulness, whatever it might be.
bring that, that Peru mind,that vacation mind back.

(01:01:57):
I have no idea how to do itand I'm so curious if you do.
Yeah.
Oh, uh, well, let's dissect whatdo you think the elements are like?
'cause if we were to come up with a listof the things one might need to do to make
that shift, we both went to South America.

(01:02:18):
that doesn't necessarily have tobe, what was it about South America?
and so I see this disruption in routine.
a removal of technology, I thinkbecause technology has become
compulsive for many of us, right?
we've, we're taken away fromeven the basics of the way we're
doing life in those situations.

(01:02:40):
And it's not like we've stopped showeringor eating or anything like that, but those
become more anchor points, differentlywhen you've taken yourself out of your
typical environment, out of your typicalroutines away from the kind of obsessive
distractions that technology provides.
those were elements thatwere common in our stories.

(01:03:00):
What else do you think?
What else do you think areelements that worked there?
I
think I'm, it might be the related to thefirst point of breaking up the routine,
but I've got this perception, belief.
I'm not sure a sense of awareness that I.
How do I explain this?
And it's gonna sound wacky, so bearwith me, Carlyn, as I go through this.

(01:03:22):
'Cause we're wacky thisinto, Jess is deep, wacky.
So I got this belief that like in,in our home, the place where we live
surrounded not just with our family,but maybe our extended family, like
if your parents live nearby or you gotfriends that you've been friends with
for a long time, it's like there's thismold that exists in that sphere that is
almost impossible to break out of it.

(01:03:42):
Yeah.
So in these situations, the additionalthing is there's not the social and
external pressure to be the version ofyourself that you've been molded into.
So there, there's that sort offreedom of social, but yeah.
Social,
like extraction from your social context.
Yeah.
re not just responsibility,but all of the context,

(01:04:03):
because then you could, and I'm hearingin there there was a se sense of, you used
the word being like that you could be.
However you're going to be,because there isn't that social
placement of who you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But your partner was there.
And so that was a positive,like shaping together too.

(01:04:24):
so there's a little bit of thatbeing you remained a partner.
yeah.
in that moment.
And I was a mother and a daughter and awife in when I went to South America too.
Interesting.
And do you feel like, The way I'mthinking, like if I'm the listener
listening to this going, if they'velistened this far and haven't
gone, these guys are pretty wacky.
and are curious about creatingthose profound changes.

(01:04:46):
Or maybe do we need a, I'veoften done it as a work retreat.
Like I'll go by myself to mybrother's cabin and Kimberly.
But generally I've brought work with me.
Like the idea is to do some of thatbigger thinking project work, like
record the course, create the course,make the shift in my business that
needs to happen where I can think aboutthose things without the pressures of

(01:05:09):
all of the life things without the dogneeding me, without kid needing a ride,
without needing to make anybody sup.
I'll make myself a big pot of stewor soup or something like that.
and not even have the structure ofneeding to stop for and make a meal, but
rather I'll have a warm cup of soup whenI want to, and then maybe go for some
walks or some hikes or, things like that.
But that, that, that disruption helpsme do deep change work in my business.

(01:05:34):
That's been my pattern.
I haven't done, necessarily done thatas a life reset or a, is a reset even
what we're going for here, but Creating,I tried, I used to do that kind of
quarterly, like it wasn't necessarilyscheduled, but creating space in our,
I feel like I've often advised clientsto even build in, is it like a week?

(01:05:54):
A quarter that you are.
Not seeing clients.
You don't have meetings whereyou pause and do a check-in.
Is it a you check your, I've evendone it where I've got an Airbnb in
the city and gone and I needed totake myself out of The situation.
But again, I'm working, like I'mdoing hard work during that time.
it's a little different from whatyou're talking about, but we do,

(01:06:16):
if we plan to have the space to dosomething like that, then the, what we
do or what we need at that time mightvary and fluctuate from time to time.
That makes
sense.
That makes sense.
And I feel like there's there's sortof two simultaneous conversations.
There's like the soft reset, like theescape take a couple weeks away, get rid
of the distractions, hunker down, shiftthe direction of the ship a little bit.

(01:06:39):
And then there's the five week.
Okay.
Some something.
Something's actually changed.
Like it's not just a pivot anddirection and a reevaluation.
It's like there's this deeperkernel of something that's shifted.
and as we're having this discussion, I'mjust thinking aloud here is what if that's
the secret to maintaining the change.
It's not like you come back homeafter five weeks in Peru and suddenly

(01:07:00):
you throw away your cell phonesand you get an outdoor shower.
it's like there's all of these externalthings that shift and change, and
maybe there's a conflation between theexternal things changing in that core
little thing that's actually shifted.
If I reflect on coming backfrom Columbia, I still genuinely
believe in magic like that.

(01:07:21):
That was too profound of an experiencenot to maintain, but it hasn't
changed my everyday behavior that muchbecause my environment requires it.
Like I, I'm not living in a hammock.
so maybe that's it.
It's like there's two types of shifts.
There's the.
Soft shift, the reevaluation, theself-driven cabin, and Kimberly one.

(01:07:44):
And then there's the deep experientialshifts that for some reason I believe
they should be profound when in realitymaybe it's just that tiny little
change to one's more core way of being,if I'm making sense as I say this.
And do, you know, I think, and I thinkpeople have those profound, deeper shifts
of I, I am different in the world now.

(01:08:06):
Often, with traumatic experiencessometimes, there's that sort
of post-traumatic growthconcept, with major disruptions.
I hear actually a lot in,perimenopausal women too, of
the like f this burning it down.
I need to regroup in life.
there's a, that, there's strong urge tothat with menopause, which is super fun.

(01:08:30):
Not fun, but, There, there are like,I think there are turning points
of things that happen in life.
Major loss, major disruption experience.
Some people I mean, we both made bigshifts in the pandemic too, right?
And, I think there are so many ways wecan come to that, that profound shift.
But what I'm hearing in thereis that we need an intentional
maintenance practice of some sort.

(01:08:51):
Like we need to create space for thoseshifts to happen where we step out of the
groove, because it could be easy to gothrough the rest of life on autopilot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you just kind of nailed inon it and it's certainly something
that I'm a strong proponentof is the, inside illusion.
those moments, you're like, oh, thereason I have the way I am is because
of this, 'cause my parents suck.

(01:09:13):
Great.. and then forget to do theactual work to integrate that.
so if I'm hearing you correctly,it's like maybe that's the trick is
to have an intentional integrationpractice after the aha moments.
Yeah.
I feel a calling for us to createsome of these supported spaces.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like it.
I like it.

(01:09:33):
Okay.
we'll talk some more about thatbecause what we both need is more
things on our plate right now.
That's
exactly it.
That's exactly why not.
Jess, this has been so good.
That feels like a really goodkind of peak to wrap up on.
How do you feel about that?
Beautiful.
Okay.
Awesome conversation.
I had so much fun.
I hope it was, of interestand value to the listeners.
And if you're still here,thank you for listening.

(01:09:55):
Yes, for sure.
I have a few lastquestions I ask everybody.
Are you happy to answer those?
Yes, please.
Okay.
What does being brave mean to you?
I think to be brave is to be as much ofyourself as you've got the capacity to be.
Oh, you know what?
People usually answer thatquestion pretty similarly.

(01:10:17):
And I, that was a unique answer.
I like it.
So when you say that you havethe capacity to that, like that
asterisk, tell me what's behind that.
Yeah, I think it's scary to be one'sfull and honest self in all situations.
for me to, when I was first startingmy teaching career, to stand up on
a stage and be the version of myselfthat I am now, which just, I didn't

(01:10:42):
have the capacity, it was too much.
But the pressure, like the reasonI asterisk it and I qualified is
because I wanna remove the pressureof be authentic, be you all the time.
Just be your authentic self.
Because I, for one, that's really hard.
Yeah.
And I do my best to be as much of it asI have capacity for in each situations.
And sometimes I just don't,sometimes I'm too run down and

(01:11:02):
worn out and I'm just scared.
So I just acknowledge that, and I'm okaywith the fact that, you know what, I'm
putting the mask on today because I'mjust, I'm too beat up right now too.
To open up myself to any potentialinjuries that might happen.
So it's just that compassion to just Yeah.
be you, be authentic.
The classic thing that everybodysays, but bring in a lot of compassion

(01:11:25):
because there's gonna be some dayswhere it's okay to be scared and it's
okay to just put the mask on becauseyou gotta make it through a day.
Yes, totally.
I think there's so much shame in burnout,because how did, and actually the
former definition was basically thatyou weren't coping well enough, right?
And, and that's evolved, but there's thatsense of, oh, how did I get myself here

(01:11:45):
again and I shouldn't have gotten here?
And then to then, like in doing therest we need to do in the, "I can't
even," veg out on the couch and watchingTV like that is a phase that you
need to not engage yourself in more.
And, and so it's, to acknowledge thatthis is what I have the capacity for
right now, and I won't be here forever.

(01:12:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
what's something braveyou've done recently?
I would say, acknowledging to myselfwhere I'm at with my life and business.
to really be like, okay, all thethings we talked about, which I'm
not gonna rehash, but to honestly saythis is where I'm at with my business.

(01:12:28):
This is what I genuinely needin order to work my way out
of the basement of burnout.
it was scary 'cause after having spentfive years in almost every waking hour of
those five years, building a business tobe like, oh, okay, this ain't quite right.
it's scary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a very brave shift.
And how would you like to seepractitioners, wellness practitioners?

(01:12:51):
So we're most, mostlyOTs listening, but Right.
You help a lot of different people.
How would you like to seepractitioners be a little bit
more brave in the near future?
the first thing that comes up is a littleredundant 'cause it would be the same.
An answer one just be more you.
and that's okay for that to be the answer.
I, I think that's the answer is Istrongly believe this, and this is
at the core of so much of what I talkabout is the more people who can just

(01:13:15):
show up as themselves, the more weare capable of helping people because
there, there are, I clients out therewho vibe with the truest version of me.
And when I'm being the truestversion of me and vibing with them,
I'm creating the safest possibleenvironment for them to get well.
Yeah.
So the more we can be, are as closeto ourselves as we've got capacity

(01:13:38):
for, the more we, I believe are goingto have capacity to create those
spaces for genuine transformation andhealing 'cause people will feel safe
to be them, their genuine selves.
Yes, very much I've learned thatin marketing too, that I. the more
I try to polish things, the lessI'm resonating, obviously with
the people who need to see it.

(01:13:59):
And the more I show up with all of me,the right people connect, the wrong people
are not interested and that's perfect.
Yeah.
it seems almost too easy.
Just be you is the key.
I think,
a healthy business isa matter of exclusion.
I know it sounds terrible, but Yeah.
It's who we don't servematters as much as who we do.
Yeah.

(01:14:19):
So being willing to be disapproved ofby being ourselves is a big part of it.
Yeah.
Good point.
Yeah.
Or just to turn some people off tohave people unsubscribe from your
email list, for instance, right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
and so people who might be interestedin this course that you have coming
up or other things that you do,how can they get in your world?

(01:14:43):
the easiest way is, and I'll makesure that you've got a link for
this, for, to put in the show notesis I've just finished a free course.
That's the three things they didn'tteach you about business in school,
which is just a quick little hourmini course, which it touches on
some of this stuff going throughthree super important things.
And it is a potential leadinto the full business course.
Okay.
Otherwise you could check me out.

(01:15:03):
my podcast is the Conscious Practitioner.
or just go to aim online.com.
I love it.
Thank you so much, Jess.
Oh, my pleasure.
And thank you so much.
What an awesome chat.
Thanks so much for listeningto The BRAVE OT Podcast.
If this episode with Jess sparkedsomething for you, maybe an
idea, a sigh of relief, or even atear, I'd love to hear about it.

(01:15:25):
I will put a few ways tocontact us in the show notes.
We can keep this conversation going in TheBRAVE OT Podcast Facebook group as well.
If you're looking for space to doyour own inner work as a practitioner
without the hustle or shiny productivitypromises, check out the ACTivate
Vitality Program, my group coachingprogram designed, to help OTs move

(01:15:46):
from burnout to ,BRAVE momentum.
And watch for Jess's upcoming course.
I really look forwardto sharing about that.
When it's ready, be sure to subscribe.
Share this episode with a friendwho gets it, and if you're
feeling generous, leave a review.
Every listen and everymessage keeps this work going.
Keep showing up authentically, evenif it's just as much of yourself

(01:16:09):
as you have capacity for today.
That's enough.
As always, be BRAVE OTs.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 45: Burnout and Attuning to Your Inner Wisdom to Transform Your Business With Guest, Dr. Jess Reynolds

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

All Episodes

Ep. 45: Burnout and Attuning to Your Inner Wisdom to Transform Your Business With Guest, Dr. Jess Reynolds

Stuff You Should Know