December 16, 2025 • 39 mins
Beatriz Lourenco, Head of People at Poolside.ai, joins host James Mackey to discuss her journey scaling from 4 to 150+ employees. She shares how she approached early hires and is building a TA motion that keeps up with rapid growth.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
Welcome to the Breakthrough Hiring Show.
I'm your host, James Mackey.
We have Beatrice Lorenzo, headof people at Poolside, with us
today.
Beatrice, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
Thank you so much for welcome me.
I'm very happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Yeah, we're really happy to have you here as well.
Really excited for today'sconversation to learn more about
you and your journey inPoolside.
Before we jump into all theexciting details, could you
please share a little bit aboutyour background with our
audience?
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah, cool.
Happy to.
Thanks again for having me.
I'm Beatrice, I'm head withPoolside, as James said.
I have been with Pulside sincethe beginning for two and a half
years as employee for.
But before that, I have been,and we'll talk a little bit more
about that in a second, but Ihave been always in startups my
whole career.
I actually didn't study anythingrelated to HR.
(03:56):
I actually went to art school,which is quite of a surprising
to a lot of people.
Then I changed from a master'sfor to business and economics.
But then I ended up inrecruitment a little bit by
accident.
And I have been focused inbuilding startups from zero to
200 people mostly.
And then poolside at some pointcame along, and it was
definitely an amazingopportunity.
(04:17):
So yeah, that's who I am.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
Yeah, and you're from Portugal, right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Yeah, I'm Portuguese.
I'm specifically from theislands.
I don't know if a lot of uhlisteners know where it is, but
it's the Azores, it's the middleof the Atlantic.
I was born and raised there.
I lived in Lisbon afterwards togo to uni.
I also lived in London.
Nowadays I live in Zurich, sodoing a little bit of a European
tour here.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Yeah, that's awesome.
And you said you really likeZurich, right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Yeah, I love Zurich.
It's amazing for sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
How long have you been there?
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Uh only for three, four months at this point.
I moved the recently, so thissummer and before I came
directly from London.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah.
I think you said um thatbullside, they have multiple
offices, right?
So is there is there an officein Zurich for Bullside or uh
great question.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
We are actually a remote first company.
We started as a fully remotecompany.
We have though, we startedhaving though a small office in
Paris.
And I'll I'll talk a little bitmore about this today.
But we gather there once amonth, and so we had an office
with that purpose, but we havenow started investing more in
offices.
We have now an office in London.
We don't have an office yet inZurich, at least for now.
(05:28):
But yeah, we are starting toexpand on that front.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, hopefully that'd be prettycool.
You know, convince the team toput office there too.
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
I'm really excited to dive intoyour experience.
I mean, again, we have a lot ofoperators tuning in to learn as
much as they can about how tooperate and build scalable TA
motions for startup and growthstage technology companies.
(05:53):
And of course, uh it'schallenging.
It's really difficult to get allthe right pieces in place to hit
the gross of growth objectivesthat align with the CEO and the
CO team and the VC team and theboard and everything to get
aligned.
So really, we would love tolearn more about your journey of
Pulseide, if you wouldn't mindsharing with us um how you
started out at the company andmaybe what some of those initial
(06:15):
goals were, and we can just kindof dissect exactly how you were
able to accomplish that and helpthe company scale to where it is
today.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Cool.
Very, very happy to.
So, for context, bullside, weare a startup, we are a Series B
company, we are a foundationalmodel company, we are training
our own models in-house.
We are in this race for AGI.
Um, we started a company two anda half years old years ago,
sorry.
Uh, and so it's quite a veryrecent company.
We were founded by both ISO andand Jason.
Uh, I am actually a long-termfriend with ISO, one of our
(06:47):
founders.
We have been wanting to worktogether for a very long time.
Actually, I met ISO very earlyin my career, has been a very an
important mentor for me.
And we have been wanting to worktogether for many years, but it
was not really ever the righttime for uh either side until
the year of 2023 when itactually made sense.
Uh, and then both sides kind ofcame across, and I felt like it
(07:09):
was one in a lifetimeopportunity to work together and
for many other reasons as well.
And so I jumped in.
So that's actually how I how westarted.
So I joined as employee four,which is very unusual for a
startup to hire ahead of peopleso early.
Uh, that was really a testamentto our founders, in a sense that
they wanted to do things wellfrom the very beginning.
They are experienced founders,um, and they really wanted to
(07:32):
make sure that one, we focus onhiring the right people, because
we all understand that hiringthe right people, especially in
a very early stage company, isone of the biggest keys to
success.
Um, and in order to attractthose right people, we want to
do things very well from thebeginning.
So, for example, we have salarybrackets since month three at
Pulside.
We have benefits since monthtwo.
There is a lot of things that wedid unusually early that really
(07:56):
allowed us to scale a lot, a loteasier now that we are almost
150 today.
So it made it a hundred timeseasier to scale because we made
those steps in the beginning.
Definitely the biggest challengewhen I joined was to build a
team from scratch, right?
We were literally four people.
It was Isa, Jason, Marida, ourCOO, and myself.
(08:18):
Uh, then we hired our first twoengineers in within the first
month, but we were a very smallteam.
Also, back in 2023, like thehype around AI was not the same
as it is right now.
And so there was a little bit oflike, we actually need to pitch
ourselves a little bit.
We need to educate people onwhat we are doing versus today,
which is becoming a lot moreobvious to a lot of us, even if
(08:41):
we don't work in machinelearning.
So there was a lot of aneducational piece that we had to
give to the market and to totalent.
Uh, but the biggest challenge,it was definitely just hiring
the first key people that wouldbuild the foundations of the
company.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Wow, yeah.
So so you were literally thereessentially since day one as
play number four to now you haveover 150 employees, I think you
said, right?
Yeah, right.
Okay, so roughly 150.
And that's been over a littleover two years was for that
growth.
Yeah, correct.
Okay.
Wow.
Okay.
So that's really excitingexperience for us to talk
(09:19):
through because you started soearly with the company, right?
Um, so we we can really talkabout the entire transition from
hiring the first handful ofpeople to hiring the first 50 to
100 to 150, right?
We could talk about the firstmilestone you needed to achieve
when you hire when you wereemployee number four.
I don't know if that goal was toget to 10 or to 20 or 30, or
(09:41):
maybe just some like earlierstage bucket we can dial in on,
and then we could talk aboutlike the second chapter or
something a little bit more onceyou enter kind of scale phase,
right?
But what was when you wereinitially hired, what were you
really brought on to do from adown-the-pipe talent acquisition
perspective?
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
I would say there's a few things.
One of them is, and before westarted building the hiring
machine, there was a lot to ouridentity.
Like, who are we?
What are the values that we wantto embody?
But what are the things that wereally want in every single
person that comes to pool sideand the things that we want to
stay away from?
And we spent quite some timeiterating on this in the
(10:18):
beginning.
We spent time together in personin the beginning exactly to
tackle this.
And in my opinion, like in anystage, you need to keep doing
this actually.
You need to start, you need tokeep doing this as you grow.
The company will have, we all,just like people, we all have
different identities through ourlifetime, right?
And so you need to keepiterating on that and keep
sitting together to keep likerealizing are we still hiring
(10:40):
for the same thing?
Are we still looking for thesame things?
Do we still share the samevalues?
Are we still the same companyper se?
But, anyways, and so that wasdefinitely a really important
part uh of our work in thebeginning and the most important
milestone that we we had tostart with.
But then it was definitelyhiring the first personalities.
And I like that you asked aboutnumbers.
(11:00):
Uh, this is something that'sbeen quite a big point for us
from the very beginning, whichis we never wanted to focus on a
number.
Of course, there is numbers interms of targets.
We need to have we havestrategic goals to accomplish,
we need to have a workforce thatis capable of achieving that.
But at the same time, we neverwanted the target to be an
(11:21):
amount of people.
So we always wanted to focus onquality, we wanted to focus on
seniority.
This was a big commitment wemade from the beginning.
Would always rather stay as leanas possible and as small as
possible and hire the mostsenior, talented builder type of
profile people right at thebeginning of the company.
Uh and in my opinion, thathelped us a lot being set up for
(11:43):
success.
And also because theorganization is a lot lighter,
it's easier to manage, we makedecisions faster.
Um, and in the beginning, thoseare things you absolutely need
uh in order to ramp up, right?
So if I had to pick two biggestmilestones, was those were the
two first ones.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
So, how did you I mean, I always like talking
about the first 10 to 15 hiresat a company are really going to
be to a large extent whatdetermines the organization's
success, right?
I mean, everybody should be amassive force multiplier.
Everybody should be creating atleast seven, if not eight
figures in value for theorganization.
And the cost of getting hireswrong can be absolutely
(12:22):
catastrophic.
And it's not always apparent atsurface level because it goes
beyond the investment in theirsalaries, the opportunity costs,
and the uh which so much factorsinto that, as you know, in terms
of even just the hiring team'stime, the executive team's time,
training, onboarding, you know,essentially doing double the
amount of work if they can'trely on the other person if it's
(12:42):
not working out.
Uh there's just a I mean, itcould be a seven to eight figure
problem very quickly, uh gettingthe wrong tires in.
So in those early days, workingalongside the founders, how did
your team ensure that you werebringing on the right people?
What did that process look like?
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
It's yeah, it's it's a big question, you know.
Like one of the one of thethings we established from the
beginning was our motto when itcomes to hiring.
And if it's not a strong yes,it's a no.
This is something we havedefined from the beginning.
It's not a strong yes, it's ano.
And this is really would rathersometimes have passed on someone
(13:22):
that could have been good, butwe were entirely sure, would
rather not risk it in thebeginning and be absolutely sure
that the person is right for therole.
I think as you grow, you thenstart shifting your mindset a
little bit more to potential,which is normal and it should
come at some point for the firsthires.
I at least in my opinion, youneed to completely go on the
other side.
So that's a big one.
(13:42):
Um, the other one was theinvestment of our founders.
For you to have an idea, likeespecially Izo, one of our
co-founders, he was doing eightintro calls a day in the
beginning of Pullside.
He was he helped me massivelywith the hiring.
Of course, no one knew Pullsideat this stage.
We had the seed of 26 million,which is an absolute privilege
(14:02):
to have, but no one knewPullside, right?
And so we really needed to getourselves out there.
And having me or like HRrecruiter actually introducing
poolside to people would notmake the cut.
And so Isa spent endless hoursof his days doing inter calls.
I would schedule him back tobacks to vex to vex.
And I will say that's reallypaid off.
(14:23):
Um he's an amazing speaker, he'sextremely charismatic, but most
importantly, he's one of thefounders of the company, right?
And he he had like he's avisionary, he had a strong
vision for poolside from thevery beginning.
Of course, he still has ittoday.
And having this presence withcandidates from the beginning
really helped teaching Pulside,but also it helped people
understanding that we're reallyfully committed to do this, and
(14:45):
our founders really cared aboutpeople.
So this was a big one.
And also, besides the fact thathe's also a good interviewer,
not all founders are greatinterviewers, some of them need
a bit more training than others.
I was in a privileged positionthat he is, and so that helped a
lot, but it helped uscalibrating the talent very
well.
And so we spent so much timecalibrating.
(15:05):
So this is the third point Iwanted to talk about, which is
the calibrations.
Since, like in the beginning,you are going to interview a lot
of different people, you need todo a big market like study,
right?
And you really need tounderstand what's out there.
You need to see differentoptions, understand what you
like, what you don't like, whatfits and what doesn't fit.
And we spent a lot of timeiterating, calibrating together.
(15:26):
This is a good fit because X, Y,and Z, and this is not a good
fit because of this, and makingthose hard decisions and commits
to them afterwards.
So those three things helped usmassively in the beginning.
Now we have other systems inplace.
We are no longer having throwswith ISO.
Um, but it definitely helped inthe beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
So also, you know, one of the things at the
earliest stage, too, that'sreally important, is being able
to uncover very quickly ifsomebody actually isn't working
out.
And I'm just curious, you know,as at the earlier stages, were
there any mistakes uh in termsof hires at any point?
And how did your team learnabout it?
What did you do about it?
How did it change your process?
(16:08):
Was there any learning curvealong the way?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Good, good question.
Yes, we definitely mademistakes.
I would not believe a companythat told me that they never
made a mistake.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
So yeah, it definitely happens.
We we did some mishires in thebeginning.
Um, I would say the biggestthing that we also committed to
from the beginning, we still doit today, is that you act on it
as quickly as you can.
Of course, that you want to befair, you want to speak with the
person honestly, you want tomake sure that you are making
(16:40):
the right call, first of all,because it might be perception,
might be an adaptation phase,whatever, that might be the
reason.
But once you are absolutely surethat that person is not the
right fit, you act on it.
We have been, even if peoplewere in probation, which
happened in the beginning, wereextremely respectful, we're very
generous with people to makesure that they were well off.
They still change their lives tojoin pool side at the end of the
(17:02):
day, right?
So I think that respect andcooperation is very important.
But you act on it quickly.
I would say it's the biggestadvice I can give.
Act on it quickly.
Having people that are not theright fit does not do a favor to
the company, neither to them,because they are probably not
happy in the role.
And I feel like a lot ofcompanies are sometimes a bit
scared of that, but they wouldbe surprised with the good that
(17:23):
they do in making thosedecisions faster than or earlier
than later.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Yeah, 100%.
So did you I suppose my questionis the follow-up on that is did
you were you able to identifyany types of blind spots based
on mishires?
SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
I would say because everybody, as you said,
everybody has the samechallenges.
So I think people would love tohear your learning curves.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
I think the biggest one that happened maybe twice
was there is um when you arehiring the first people, you
need to hire builders.
You need to hire people thatreally want to build something
from scratch and are extremelycomfortable with ambiguity.
They don't come to a placeexpecting structure because they
need to one drive with thatambiguity slash chaos, but they
(18:11):
also need to build a structurethemselves.
And we in the beginning we havebrought people from, you know,
and I'm not saying people frombigger companies cannot adjust,
but people had never beenexposed to that.
And we quickly realized thatthey didn't have either the
inclination to adjust or simplydidn't want to, or were not good
at it, for example.
(18:33):
But there was different reasonswhy it happened.
But I would say that sometimesyou meet people that are
extremely bright, extremelyintelligent, and actually super
competent in their jobs inwhatever context that they're
in.
But then you completely changeto being in a place where there
is no structure, and then thosepeople don't drive in those
environments, and vice versa,right?
So it's it can happen the otherway around as well.
(18:55):
So that's that's a big one.
And you really wanted we starteddigging a lot more on that.
Okay, so you're amazing at yourjob.
What if I take you this in thissupport system?
What do you do?
Um, and so this is when we wemade a little bit of the shift.
It was already there from thebeginning, but it's when we went
full force on the firstprinciples thinking way of
(19:16):
interviewing.
So it's not so much about what'syour of course, for certain
roles you need specificexpertise, but for a lot of
roles is how smart you are, howyou can solve problems, and how
in this situation where all ofthe options are taken away from
you, can you find a pathforward?
Um, and so this is this was abig inflection point for us, I
(19:37):
would say.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
Yeah, that's uh a learning curve that I went
through as well, working with alot of tech companies.
And I've been in tech now for alittle over a decade, and um, I
do own a RPO embedded recruitingagency.
We've worked with hundreds oftech companies, and we've just
learned that lesson over andover.
Like we've seen it so manytimes.
So it's something that weactually advise on too.
(19:59):
So when I'm working, and samefor my company as well, right?
Um it's really it's reallychallenging to be able to
evaluate somebody in aninterview process for a startup
if they only have like bigcompany, you know, upper
mid-market enterpriseexperience.
It's really, really hard.
And and so then, of course, likeyou know, I I got asked, I was
(20:21):
actually on one podcast, like uhlike a sales podcast, and the
host asked me, it's like, well,okay, but you know, obviously
some people can do it, so how doyou interview them for an early
stage startup?
And I guess it's sort of a hottake, but what I said is I
wouldn't.
Like it's not that they couldn'tdo it.
Of course, we we can findsomebody who can make the
(20:43):
transition.
The issue is that when you're arecruiter or a talent leader at
a startup or a stage company,you're essentially an investment
manager.
Like you are given a bucket ofmoney to hire incredibly high
quality people, and it's yourjob to ensure that you're
maximizing the ROI and toeliminate as much risk as
possible.
Right?
And it's like it adds thelikelihood of them being able to
(21:04):
make that kind of conversion ortransition from big company to
startup.
Not saying that it can't bedone, it's just that I've seen
it fail so often that I look atit as a risk aversion thing.
I just need to stay away from itfrom our customers because I
want to ensure we're getting theright person.
And that's is it fair enough tobe able to do that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
So I'm gonna play devil's advocate for you here,
actually.
Okay.
Uh so I would say that can be abias of yours as well, that
because you have seen thathappen multiple times, now you
have also created this bias foryourself that it might, more
often than not, is not a goodfit.
I have seen it go incrediblywell for poolside, actually, and
I have seen it going wrong.
(21:43):
I have seen both.
Um, we have put a couple thingsin place in the process to help
mitigating for this.
I definitely agree it's trickyand it's sometimes hard, but we
still interview them, mostlybecause we have found really
good talent that came from bigtech.
SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
And a lot of them for which for which um
department though?
That might be there might besome new ones there, too.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
I think I'll agree for both engineering and for
go-to-market, um, mostly.
Uh not so much GNA, maybe, but Ithink like it has served us in
both.
I definitely agree with you thatI mean it's it's I as I said,
it's been a learning curve forus for sure.
We have learned from that aswell.
But we basically tweak thehiring process to address for
this.
(22:25):
Um we do touch, especially inthe beginning, a lot on the
drive, the motivation on theperson trying to understand why
do you actually want to moveinto an earlier stage and try to
understand if they understandwhat they are getting themselves
into.
This is the biggest one.
And like a good question that Ilike to ask often is um like I
(22:45):
start with like what's been yourbiggest challenge over the past
whatever years?
How did you tackle?
Then, okay, then if you had toanticipate what you think would
be your biggest challenge in thecontext of full size, what do
you think that will be?
And then start cracking the icefrom there.
And some people will actually besurprisingly, okay, you are very
well aware of the challenges ofthis stage.
You know what you're gettingyourself into.
(23:06):
Other people are completelyunaware, and it's like, okay,
this might be a Bit of a yellowflag, and this is when then you
deep dive into the firstprinciples thinking, and then
it's when a lot of people fail.
We have a really low conversionrate in some of the technicals
because of that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
A lot of people really, it's it's hard, they
fail there, but we have beenreally trying to still interview
them, of course, if they have agreat profile, but really press
on those things, and then we areunforgiving.
If you are not ready, then it'sright.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
Yeah, I think that that's um, you know, I think for
like a lot of recruiters whenthey're starting out to a lot of
people become a recruiter, theywant to help people get jobs,
and it's like about you know,setting people up, and it really
is.
I mean, that is part of it, butit's also like you are like the
first line of defenseessentially to make sure that
only the absolute right peopleare getting through.
And of course, you're right,there's more nuance to um you
(23:57):
know, some folks who can makeit.
Uh yeah, I I like with earlierstage, I I usually I'm just
like, don't even just let's tryto find somebody very
hyper-similar environment,startup growth stage.
I think too, though, as you havea little bit more systems and
sophistication in place,probably when you cross like
100% threshold, or maybe as youbecome a little bit more
(24:18):
established, too, it becomes youknow more about your process and
interview process and what worksand what doesn't to dial in on
that even more, right?
Um, then I guess maybe somestartups too.
But yeah, that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
And then like within the process, you like in the
very beginning, the very fewpeople, like the first few
people, of course, it's more onyou to be thinking, like looking
at those CV and thinking, isthis a yes or no?
And you can really spend moretime on that.
And then as you are scaling, youneed to build a process that can
a machine that is oiled and itkind of works on itself in a
way.
(24:51):
And so in this, you need tostart thinking about biases,
different stages.
Can we start bringing peoplefrom different backgrounds and
how that plays out into theprocess?
So it's also a maturity of theprocess and how you start
opening other doors, you know,like maybe in the beginning you
wouldn't open.
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
Right.
And then you yeah, you start to,as you scale, you can and you
have a little more systems and alittle bit more process in
place, right?
Which also helps.
Uh well, so look, this is great.
I mean, this has been reallycool to learn more about your
story starting at the company'sfor uh for employees, and then
that initial playbook forbuilding out the team.
Now you're in a different place.
(25:31):
And I would love to get a sensefor what your goals currently
are at the company, maybe overthe next six to twelve months,
uh, whatever it might be, andyour strategy to get there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah.
So you might be aware that ourspace is extremely competitive
right now.
So the biggest challenge isdefinitely keep getting that top
talent from the market.
I think there is two challenges.
There is a challenge of theshortage of talent, like the
speed of what AI companies arehiring right now versus the
amount of talent that issuitable for this role that is
(26:07):
in the market that has the rightexperience that companies
ideally want to hire for.
There is a shortage of it.
So that's the first one.
And the second one is themassive competition.
There is so many new labs outthere, so many cool companies
building stuff now.
And we're all targeting more orless the same type of profiles.
And so I would say the biggestchallenge is definitely keep
targeting and keep the bar veryhigh when it comes to the
(26:30):
quality of the talent,especially when you come to a
150 number of people, is when alot of companies do this shift
and they start lowering the barin order to be able to keep
scaling.
And this is something that weactually had a conversation
recently about.
This is like we don't want to doit.
If our roadmap, and it's notdefined yet, but just to give a
number as an example, if ourroadmap was to hire 100 more
(26:52):
people and I hire 50 and they'reabsolute amazing, incredible
people, I'll be more happy thanif we had hired 90 and 20 of
them didn't make it, right?
Not just because of the cost tothe company, or even if maybe
they made it, but they wereaverage performers, I would be
less happy than if we hired lessand exceptional more senior
(27:14):
people.
And so there'll be uh there isscale that is coming at us and
that challenge with thecompetition, but we are really
focusing on how we can do thebest work of our lives with less
people that are more talented,uh more senior, and can really
have bring that autonomy andhigh agency into the workplace
(27:35):
versus in org.
Um of course, we have now openedthe doors like to more junior
people that are extremely brightand bring kind of uh some fresh
air into the company.
It's been lovely.
But those junior people are alsohigh agency and high autonomy,
right?
And so they don't need a lot ofhand holding.
So, in anyways, I'm digressing alittle bit, but that's
definitely one.
(27:55):
Um and well, full side, we areon this race, right?
And so the next uh two years, wewe just have to be completely
hands down, head down, and andfocus in that.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Yeah.
And so you're gonna be scalingout the team.
You're thinking about thedifferent talent that you're
bringing on.
Um, it's gonna be to someextent, you said you're able to
bring on some more juniortalent.
I suppose is that because insome of the departments you have
more process and systems builtout?
Is that like sales talent orengineering talent?
Where do you think you're gonnabe focused on?
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Yeah, I would say it's more engineering.
We'll focus more on engineeringhiring.
I would say it's the biggestportion of the company and it
will continue to be at least forthe next uh six to 12 months,
and I hope for a long time,given the nature of our
business.
Um but I would say it's one wehave a bit more structure now
that we are able to give alittle bit more support to
people, but also because thereis, you know, the concept of
(28:48):
seniority, in my opinion, iswell it's not as straightforward
as I think a few years ago wasin talent acquisition that you
specifically looked for years ofexperience.
I have seen more and more theindustry like drifting away from
that, which I personally alsobelieve on.
I have seen people with threeyears of experience that have
kicked ass a lot more thansomeone with 15 years of
experience, and vice versa aswell.
(29:10):
Um, but more and more I feellike those years of experience
matter a bit less.
And it's more about the peoplethat actually want to bring the
right impact and want to writethe right things, are super
intelligent, are talented, uhare passionate about what they
do.
And so it's a specific type ofjunior, though.
It's those juniors that reallywant to kind of bring the world.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
The incredible behavioral fits, right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
That makes such a big difference.
I that's one thing that I'velearned is you can never at a
startup and growth changecompany, you can never
compromise on behavioral fits.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
You can't.
Like that strong yes that youwere talking about earlier.
Yeah, every time it's because ofthe behavioral element.
I mean, I like skill set at theend of the day, it's like even
when I look at my must-haves,it's like I'm, you know, really
at the end of the day, it's tome, it's if they're a strong
behavioral fit, as long as theyhave the the majority of the
skills that we need, I'm okaywith them not having certain
(30:11):
aspects of it of what's on theJD or hiring folks that are a
little bit more junior.
Because you know, if somebody'sthe right behavioral fit,
they're just gonna bulldozethrough any any potential
problem.
They're gonna figure it out.
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
Absolutely.
And hard skills, like dependingon the role and what are your
needs, of course, in whatcontext you are in, but they are
more cultureable, right?
You can always learn, you canalways get there.
But the behavioral piece, yourinner drive, it's not something
I believe can be coached.
So you either are a fit oryou're not a fit.
And this is something that we wereally from the beginning, we
(30:44):
have always been very honestwith people.
This is our type of environment,this is who thrive here.
If this is not for you, you canself-select out.
That's okay.
No one is gonna be offended.
It's totally fine.
But really allowing people tomake their own decisions, you
know, like people are adults.
If you are applying for a job,you are definitely of a
majority.
You probably have been in themarket for a couple of years.
(31:06):
And so you can definitely makeyour own decisions.
So giving people the informationto make informed decisions about
is this the workplace I want towork for?
Is this the culture?
Is this the values?
Um, and we have had peopleself-selecting out and said,
look, I don't think this is theright thing for me.
That's good.
Like you saved both of us time.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
Right.
Yeah, I think that that'sactually important for folks to
understand is it's actually youshould have a certain percentage
of your candidatesself-selecting out.
That's a good thing.
Sometimes lower conversion ratesfor many reasons actually are a
good thing between interviewrounds, but there should be a
certain percentage of people.
I mean, when uh for for one ofmy customers, I still do some
(31:47):
hands-on supports a company I'vebeen working with for five, six
years, and uh, I'm an advisorover there, and I still
interview folks at linger stagein the funnel for a few of their
open roles.
And I probably spend 10 to 15minutes talking to them about
the challenges uh and theproblems that uh the company is
(32:08):
working through.
Um, and I really slow down on itbecause what what I tell them is
like, look, I'm looking for theperson that is excited to solve
for these things.
Right?
Like, there's no right or wrong.
It's like some people are gonnahear what I'm saying and be
like, yes, this sounds like fun.
Other people are gonna hear thisand be like, no way.
So I try to pull that out ofpeople to, you know, it's easy
(32:30):
to sell people on the things wedo really well, but the right
people, they're gonna be excitedabout coming in and solving for
the challenge.
And I think that that's sort ofa startup gross stage mindset.
Like, absolutely probably you'reprobably the same.
But I mean, I like being able togo into a company where there's
a lot of work to be done,there's a lot of improvements to
be made, or something is isthere's this really high
(32:51):
potential, but something holdingus back, and we have to break
through.
I mean, that kind of stuff iswhat really excites me.
And for some people, that'stheir worst nightmare, right?
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
I mean exactly.
And that's that's why like thereis uh stages and companies for
everyone, and that's why likebeing in a startup in this type
of environment is notnecessarily cooler than being in
a bigger company because itdepends on what's your personal
drive, it depends on yourcircumstances, and honestly,
like what do you like doingreally?
Like what you know gets you outof bed every day?
(33:21):
You know, we are not all thesame.
So absolutely.
unknown (33:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:24):
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Well, uh, look, we're we'recoming up on time here.
And uh I wanted to see isrelated to pool side, is there
anything else that you wanted tomention that you're working on
or you're doing or that youthink would be helpful to
operators?
I know we have a handful ofquestions I want to cover with
you.
Uh more so rapid fire format,but anything else that you want
to talk through?
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
No, I think we are good so we can let's go.
Let's go to our questions.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
Okay.
All right, rapid fire questions.
So, not exactly yes, no.
Some of them are a little morecontext, but we're implementing
this uh segment to the show.
I think it'll be fun.
Um, the the big one, the fun oneis will AI replace recruiters?
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Uh, short answer is no, slightly longer is
partially.
So I personally don't believethat you can replace recruiters
in a sense there is a big humanconnection uh in the recruitment
pro in a recruitment processthat is well done.
In my opinion, there is a lot onvalues on and how people
(34:21):
interact with each other thatcannot be done by AI.
At least as of today, I don'tbelieve it.
But I would say there is a lotof the work that recruiters do
that will and should be replacedby AI because it's all of the
automation work that we spend ona day-to-day doing repetitive
tasks that no one likes, be myguest, of course.
(34:41):
But yeah, my answer is partiallypartially no.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
Yeah, I hear you on that.
Okay, cool.
What tools would you say aregame changers and which are all
hype?
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I don't particularly believe in tools as game
changers, to be honest.
I mean, they can be, dependingon your context, but I would say
there is no perfect tools.
There is tools for the problemsyou want to solve, for the
context, the stage you are in.
Um, it depends what you aretrying to achieve.
I have tools that have served mevery well in other stages.
(35:14):
And then you once you get to acertain stage, it no longer
serves you.
I still love those tools,absolutely, just not for the
context I'm in.
So my answer will be actually Iwill not name any tool.
I would say it depends on theproblem you're trying to solve
in the stage you are in.
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
I agree with you there too.
Okay, next question.
What is more productive, anoffice or remote?
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Hybrid.
I hope I can uh cheat on that umquestion.
So I have been I have done both.
I think like most people havedone both at this stage, or even
if those who haven't done fullyremote have done a hybrid.
Pullside is remote first.
We we have a little bit now of ahybrid that we go to Paris once
a month to be with the team.
(35:55):
Uh in my previous company, wewere hybrids.
I personally believe in givingpeople the autonomy and agency
to work remotely, to managetheir own lives.
It gives a lot of people freedomand time to manage their own
personal lives, their ownhobbies, family time, reduce
commute, and so on.
But it's also important to spendquality time in person.
(36:17):
And there are things that aresimply better done in person
than not.
So I really believe in a hybrid,but the hybrid that gives
freedom of choice rather than aforced you have to be at the
office every Monday type ofsituation.
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
Got it.
Got it.
Cool.
And what is the best piece ofcareer or leadership advice
you've ever received?
SPEAKER_00 (36:37):
This is my favorite question, I would say, of today.
Um I would say my biggest thebiggest advice I have received,
and it's the advice I like togive, is take the seat at the
table.
I would say confidence goes along way.
And through our throughout ourcareers, even if you are in a
leadership position or not, itdoesn't matter.
A lot of us at some point mightthink to ourselves that we are
(37:00):
not ready for something.
We are kind of we have impostersyndrome, and you don't want to
be in certain rooms because youkind of think you are a fraud
somehow, um, or you don't feelconfident enough in a specific
conversation, and then you don'treally take the opportunity to
go in and say something.
My biggest piece of advice isyou take that seat at the table.
(37:20):
Walk into that room that you arescared of.
Confidence goes a long way.
If you're lucky enough, you willnot be the smartest in a room.
Um, but you'll have the chanceto learn from other people,
you'll be out of your comfortzone.
But you might even get surprisedwith yourself with what you were
able to accomplish.
You might be able to be to beseen and heard by people that
(37:41):
you never thought that wouldlisten to you, but more
importantly, you will learn alot.
And that's how you you grow.
So take the seat at the table.
That's my biggest piece ofadvice that I have been given
and has helped me a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (37:54):
Well, that's great advice.
And the last question I have foryou is what is one book that has
had the biggest impact on yourlife or career?
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
So I love reading, so that's a hard one.
There is a few ones that I wouldrecommend.
Um, a book that that has helpedme a lot is called The Coaching
Habit from uh Michael Senior.
That book was actuallyrecommended by my coach, and
it's how any people in aposition of management,
(38:24):
leadership, mentoring, whateverthat is, should know how to
coach others to an extent andhaving the coaching mentality in
conversations.
That's been incredibly helpfulfor my role specifically, but I
do recommend that to everyoneand anyone that I mentor.
That's one.
On a more personal level, I lovethe book 4,000 weeks.
Um, I would say that book isincredibly interesting.
(38:47):
It's not about HR, it's notabout building a business at
all.
But it gives you perspective intime.
Like what's actual time?
An average lifetime has 4,000weeks.
When you think about 4,000weeks, that kind of sounds a bit
short, doesn't it?
Um it give me that actuallycancel a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:04):
Oh, sorry when you talk about it now.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
I'm sorry if that sounds a bit dark, but the the
way that you look at time anddecisions, and it's I think the
biggest conclusion of the book,without wanting to spoil anyone,
at least for me personally,there is many conclusions and
views you can take of it, isreally you need to make choices
and you need to commit to them.
(39:27):
You cannot be here waiting tosay, oh yeah, okay, then I can
make that choice, and then Iwill tomorrow I'll do that, and
then I'll never really commit toanything because I have enough
time in life to do all of it.
Well, actually, we don't.
Our lives are finite, and so youhave to make decisions and
commit to them.
And if they don't work, then youmove on to the next one.
So that's like it reallytranslates to a lot of areas of
(39:48):
life.
I love that book.
And then final one, which isvery, very helpful for HR
leaders, leaders in general, isscaling people.
Uh, the stripe book from ClaireUm Johnson.
I love that book, it'sphenomenal.
I would say any startup oranyone who is building a
business should buy that bookand go home and read it and
spend a lot of time on itbecause it's exceptional.
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, there you go.
I gotta check it, I gotta checkthose out.
Thank you.
Yeah, cool.
I got some reading to do.
SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
Cool.
Enjoy.
I hope so.
I hope you enjoy.
Let me know what you think ofthat.
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Yeah, I know I definitely will.
I will.
Um, well, look, I coming up ontime, I just wanted to say thank
you so much for joining ustoday.
It's been a really excitingepisode.
I know everyone tuning in isgoing to have learned uh a lot.
And um, so thank you for joiningus and sharing your insights.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (40:38):
Thanks for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Um season.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Great.
And for everybody tuning in,just so you know, we're gonna be
getting back to a regularepisode cadence of every Tuesday
and Thursday morning releases.
So uh stay tuned for moreamazing episodes.
Talk to you soon.
unknown (40:54):
Bye.
Welcome to the Breakthrough Hiring Show.
I'm your host, James Mackey.
We have Beatrice Lorenzo, headof people at Poolside, with us
today.
Beatrice, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
Thank you so much for welcome me.
I'm very happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Yeah, we're really happy to have you here as well.
Really excited for today'sconversation to learn more about
you and your journey inPoolside.
Before we jump into all theexciting details, could you
please share a little bit aboutyour background with our
audience?
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah, cool.
Happy to.
Thanks again for having me.
I'm Beatrice, I'm head withPoolside, as James said.
I have been with Pulside sincethe beginning for two and a half
years as employee for.
But before that, I have been,and we'll talk a little bit more
about that in a second, but Ihave been always in startups my
whole career.
I actually didn't study anythingrelated to HR.
(03:56):
I actually went to art school,which is quite of a surprising
to a lot of people.
Then I changed from a master'sfor to business and economics.
But then I ended up inrecruitment a little bit by
accident.
And I have been focused inbuilding startups from zero to
200 people mostly.
And then poolside at some pointcame along, and it was
definitely an amazingopportunity.
(04:17):
So yeah, that's who I am.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
Yeah, and you're from Portugal, right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Yeah, I'm Portuguese.
I'm specifically from theislands.
I don't know if a lot of uhlisteners know where it is, but
it's the Azores, it's the middleof the Atlantic.
I was born and raised there.
I lived in Lisbon afterwards togo to uni.
I also lived in London.
Nowadays I live in Zurich, sodoing a little bit of a European
tour here.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Yeah, that's awesome.
And you said you really likeZurich, right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Yeah, I love Zurich.
It's amazing for sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
How long have you been there?
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Uh only for three, four months at this point.
I moved the recently, so thissummer and before I came
directly from London.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah.
I think you said um thatbullside, they have multiple
offices, right?
So is there is there an officein Zurich for Bullside or uh
great question.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
We are actually a remote first company.
We started as a fully remotecompany.
We have though, we startedhaving though a small office in
Paris.
And I'll I'll talk a little bitmore about this today.
But we gather there once amonth, and so we had an office
with that purpose, but we havenow started investing more in
offices.
We have now an office in London.
We don't have an office yet inZurich, at least for now.
(05:28):
But yeah, we are starting toexpand on that front.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, hopefully that'd be prettycool.
You know, convince the team toput office there too.
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
I'm really excited to dive intoyour experience.
I mean, again, we have a lot ofoperators tuning in to learn as
much as they can about how tooperate and build scalable TA
motions for startup and growthstage technology companies.
(05:53):
And of course, uh it'schallenging.
It's really difficult to get allthe right pieces in place to hit
the gross of growth objectivesthat align with the CEO and the
CO team and the VC team and theboard and everything to get
aligned.
So really, we would love tolearn more about your journey of
Pulseide, if you wouldn't mindsharing with us um how you
started out at the company andmaybe what some of those initial
(06:15):
goals were, and we can just kindof dissect exactly how you were
able to accomplish that and helpthe company scale to where it is
today.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Cool.
Very, very happy to.
So, for context, bullside, weare a startup, we are a Series B
company, we are a foundationalmodel company, we are training
our own models in-house.
We are in this race for AGI.
Um, we started a company two anda half years old years ago,
sorry.
Uh, and so it's quite a veryrecent company.
We were founded by both ISO andand Jason.
Uh, I am actually a long-termfriend with ISO, one of our
(06:47):
founders.
We have been wanting to worktogether for a very long time.
Actually, I met ISO very earlyin my career, has been a very an
important mentor for me.
And we have been wanting to worktogether for many years, but it
was not really ever the righttime for uh either side until
the year of 2023 when itactually made sense.
Uh, and then both sides kind ofcame across, and I felt like it
(07:09):
was one in a lifetimeopportunity to work together and
for many other reasons as well.
And so I jumped in.
So that's actually how I how westarted.
So I joined as employee four,which is very unusual for a
startup to hire ahead of peopleso early.
Uh, that was really a testamentto our founders, in a sense that
they wanted to do things wellfrom the very beginning.
They are experienced founders,um, and they really wanted to
(07:32):
make sure that one, we focus onhiring the right people, because
we all understand that hiringthe right people, especially in
a very early stage company, isone of the biggest keys to
success.
Um, and in order to attractthose right people, we want to
do things very well from thebeginning.
So, for example, we have salarybrackets since month three at
Pulside.
We have benefits since monthtwo.
There is a lot of things that wedid unusually early that really
(07:56):
allowed us to scale a lot, a loteasier now that we are almost
150 today.
So it made it a hundred timeseasier to scale because we made
those steps in the beginning.
Definitely the biggest challengewhen I joined was to build a
team from scratch, right?
We were literally four people.
It was Isa, Jason, Marida, ourCOO, and myself.
(08:18):
Uh, then we hired our first twoengineers in within the first
month, but we were a very smallteam.
Also, back in 2023, like thehype around AI was not the same
as it is right now.
And so there was a little bit oflike, we actually need to pitch
ourselves a little bit.
We need to educate people onwhat we are doing versus today,
which is becoming a lot moreobvious to a lot of us, even if
(08:41):
we don't work in machinelearning.
So there was a lot of aneducational piece that we had to
give to the market and to totalent.
Uh, but the biggest challenge,it was definitely just hiring
the first key people that wouldbuild the foundations of the
company.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Wow, yeah.
So so you were literally thereessentially since day one as
play number four to now you haveover 150 employees, I think you
said, right?
Yeah, right.
Okay, so roughly 150.
And that's been over a littleover two years was for that
growth.
Yeah, correct.
Okay.
Wow.
Okay.
So that's really excitingexperience for us to talk
(09:19):
through because you started soearly with the company, right?
Um, so we we can really talkabout the entire transition from
hiring the first handful ofpeople to hiring the first 50 to
100 to 150, right?
We could talk about the firstmilestone you needed to achieve
when you hire when you wereemployee number four.
I don't know if that goal was toget to 10 or to 20 or 30, or
(09:41):
maybe just some like earlierstage bucket we can dial in on,
and then we could talk aboutlike the second chapter or
something a little bit more onceyou enter kind of scale phase,
right?
But what was when you wereinitially hired, what were you
really brought on to do from adown-the-pipe talent acquisition
perspective?
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
I would say there's a few things.
One of them is, and before westarted building the hiring
machine, there was a lot to ouridentity.
Like, who are we?
What are the values that we wantto embody?
But what are the things that wereally want in every single
person that comes to pool sideand the things that we want to
stay away from?
And we spent quite some timeiterating on this in the
(10:18):
beginning.
We spent time together in personin the beginning exactly to
tackle this.
And in my opinion, like in anystage, you need to keep doing
this actually.
You need to start, you need tokeep doing this as you grow.
The company will have, we all,just like people, we all have
different identities through ourlifetime, right?
And so you need to keepiterating on that and keep
sitting together to keep likerealizing are we still hiring
(10:40):
for the same thing?
Are we still looking for thesame things?
Do we still share the samevalues?
Are we still the same companyper se?
But, anyways, and so that wasdefinitely a really important
part uh of our work in thebeginning and the most important
milestone that we we had tostart with.
But then it was definitelyhiring the first personalities.
And I like that you asked aboutnumbers.
(11:00):
Uh, this is something that'sbeen quite a big point for us
from the very beginning, whichis we never wanted to focus on a
number.
Of course, there is numbers interms of targets.
We need to have we havestrategic goals to accomplish,
we need to have a workforce thatis capable of achieving that.
But at the same time, we neverwanted the target to be an
(11:21):
amount of people.
So we always wanted to focus onquality, we wanted to focus on
seniority.
This was a big commitment wemade from the beginning.
Would always rather stay as leanas possible and as small as
possible and hire the mostsenior, talented builder type of
profile people right at thebeginning of the company.
Uh and in my opinion, thathelped us a lot being set up for
(11:43):
success.
And also because theorganization is a lot lighter,
it's easier to manage, we makedecisions faster.
Um, and in the beginning, thoseare things you absolutely need
uh in order to ramp up, right?
So if I had to pick two biggestmilestones, was those were the
two first ones.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
So, how did you I mean, I always like talking
about the first 10 to 15 hiresat a company are really going to
be to a large extent whatdetermines the organization's
success, right?
I mean, everybody should be amassive force multiplier.
Everybody should be creating atleast seven, if not eight
figures in value for theorganization.
And the cost of getting hireswrong can be absolutely
(12:22):
catastrophic.
And it's not always apparent atsurface level because it goes
beyond the investment in theirsalaries, the opportunity costs,
and the uh which so much factorsinto that, as you know, in terms
of even just the hiring team'stime, the executive team's time,
training, onboarding, you know,essentially doing double the
amount of work if they can'trely on the other person if it's
(12:42):
not working out.
Uh there's just a I mean, itcould be a seven to eight figure
problem very quickly, uh gettingthe wrong tires in.
So in those early days, workingalongside the founders, how did
your team ensure that you werebringing on the right people?
What did that process look like?
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
It's yeah, it's it's a big question, you know.
Like one of the one of thethings we established from the
beginning was our motto when itcomes to hiring.
And if it's not a strong yes,it's a no.
This is something we havedefined from the beginning.
It's not a strong yes, it's ano.
And this is really would rathersometimes have passed on someone
(13:22):
that could have been good, butwe were entirely sure, would
rather not risk it in thebeginning and be absolutely sure
that the person is right for therole.
I think as you grow, you thenstart shifting your mindset a
little bit more to potential,which is normal and it should
come at some point for the firsthires.
I at least in my opinion, youneed to completely go on the
other side.
So that's a big one.
(13:42):
Um, the other one was theinvestment of our founders.
For you to have an idea, likeespecially Izo, one of our
co-founders, he was doing eightintro calls a day in the
beginning of Pullside.
He was he helped me massivelywith the hiring.
Of course, no one knew Pullsideat this stage.
We had the seed of 26 million,which is an absolute privilege
(14:02):
to have, but no one knewPullside, right?
And so we really needed to getourselves out there.
And having me or like HRrecruiter actually introducing
poolside to people would notmake the cut.
And so Isa spent endless hoursof his days doing inter calls.
I would schedule him back tobacks to vex to vex.
And I will say that's reallypaid off.
(14:23):
Um he's an amazing speaker, he'sextremely charismatic, but most
importantly, he's one of thefounders of the company, right?
And he he had like he's avisionary, he had a strong
vision for poolside from thevery beginning.
Of course, he still has ittoday.
And having this presence withcandidates from the beginning
really helped teaching Pulside,but also it helped people
understanding that we're reallyfully committed to do this, and
(14:45):
our founders really cared aboutpeople.
So this was a big one.
And also, besides the fact thathe's also a good interviewer,
not all founders are greatinterviewers, some of them need
a bit more training than others.
I was in a privileged positionthat he is, and so that helped a
lot, but it helped uscalibrating the talent very
well.
And so we spent so much timecalibrating.
(15:05):
So this is the third point Iwanted to talk about, which is
the calibrations.
Since, like in the beginning,you are going to interview a lot
of different people, you need todo a big market like study,
right?
And you really need tounderstand what's out there.
You need to see differentoptions, understand what you
like, what you don't like, whatfits and what doesn't fit.
And we spent a lot of timeiterating, calibrating together.
(15:26):
This is a good fit because X, Y,and Z, and this is not a good
fit because of this, and makingthose hard decisions and commits
to them afterwards.
So those three things helped usmassively in the beginning.
Now we have other systems inplace.
We are no longer having throwswith ISO.
Um, but it definitely helped inthe beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
So also, you know, one of the things at the
earliest stage, too, that'sreally important, is being able
to uncover very quickly ifsomebody actually isn't working
out.
And I'm just curious, you know,as at the earlier stages, were
there any mistakes uh in termsof hires at any point?
And how did your team learnabout it?
What did you do about it?
How did it change your process?
(16:08):
Was there any learning curvealong the way?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Good, good question.
Yes, we definitely mademistakes.
I would not believe a companythat told me that they never
made a mistake.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
So yeah, it definitely happens.
We we did some mishires in thebeginning.
Um, I would say the biggestthing that we also committed to
from the beginning, we still doit today, is that you act on it
as quickly as you can.
Of course, that you want to befair, you want to speak with the
person honestly, you want tomake sure that you are making
(16:40):
the right call, first of all,because it might be perception,
might be an adaptation phase,whatever, that might be the
reason.
But once you are absolutely surethat that person is not the
right fit, you act on it.
We have been, even if peoplewere in probation, which
happened in the beginning, wereextremely respectful, we're very
generous with people to makesure that they were well off.
They still change their lives tojoin pool side at the end of the
(17:02):
day, right?
So I think that respect andcooperation is very important.
But you act on it quickly.
I would say it's the biggestadvice I can give.
Act on it quickly.
Having people that are not theright fit does not do a favor to
the company, neither to them,because they are probably not
happy in the role.
And I feel like a lot ofcompanies are sometimes a bit
scared of that, but they wouldbe surprised with the good that
(17:23):
they do in making thosedecisions faster than or earlier
than later.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Yeah, 100%.
So did you I suppose my questionis the follow-up on that is did
you were you able to identifyany types of blind spots based
on mishires?
SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
I would say because everybody, as you said,
everybody has the samechallenges.
So I think people would love tohear your learning curves.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
I think the biggest one that happened maybe twice
was there is um when you arehiring the first people, you
need to hire builders.
You need to hire people thatreally want to build something
from scratch and are extremelycomfortable with ambiguity.
They don't come to a placeexpecting structure because they
need to one drive with thatambiguity slash chaos, but they
(18:11):
also need to build a structurethemselves.
And we in the beginning we havebrought people from, you know,
and I'm not saying people frombigger companies cannot adjust,
but people had never beenexposed to that.
And we quickly realized thatthey didn't have either the
inclination to adjust or simplydidn't want to, or were not good
at it, for example.
(18:33):
But there was different reasonswhy it happened.
But I would say that sometimesyou meet people that are
extremely bright, extremelyintelligent, and actually super
competent in their jobs inwhatever context that they're
in.
But then you completely changeto being in a place where there
is no structure, and then thosepeople don't drive in those
environments, and vice versa,right?
So it's it can happen the otherway around as well.
(18:55):
So that's that's a big one.
And you really wanted we starteddigging a lot more on that.
Okay, so you're amazing at yourjob.
What if I take you this in thissupport system?
What do you do?
Um, and so this is when we wemade a little bit of the shift.
It was already there from thebeginning, but it's when we went
full force on the firstprinciples thinking way of
(19:16):
interviewing.
So it's not so much about what'syour of course, for certain
roles you need specificexpertise, but for a lot of
roles is how smart you are, howyou can solve problems, and how
in this situation where all ofthe options are taken away from
you, can you find a pathforward?
Um, and so this is this was abig inflection point for us, I
(19:37):
would say.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
Yeah, that's uh a learning curve that I went
through as well, working with alot of tech companies.
And I've been in tech now for alittle over a decade, and um, I
do own a RPO embedded recruitingagency.
We've worked with hundreds oftech companies, and we've just
learned that lesson over andover.
Like we've seen it so manytimes.
So it's something that weactually advise on too.
(19:59):
So when I'm working, and samefor my company as well, right?
Um it's really it's reallychallenging to be able to
evaluate somebody in aninterview process for a startup
if they only have like bigcompany, you know, upper
mid-market enterpriseexperience.
It's really, really hard.
And and so then, of course, likeyou know, I I got asked, I was
(20:21):
actually on one podcast, like uhlike a sales podcast, and the
host asked me, it's like, well,okay, but you know, obviously
some people can do it, so how doyou interview them for an early
stage startup?
And I guess it's sort of a hottake, but what I said is I
wouldn't.
Like it's not that they couldn'tdo it.
Of course, we we can findsomebody who can make the
(20:43):
transition.
The issue is that when you're arecruiter or a talent leader at
a startup or a stage company,you're essentially an investment
manager.
Like you are given a bucket ofmoney to hire incredibly high
quality people, and it's yourjob to ensure that you're
maximizing the ROI and toeliminate as much risk as
possible.
Right?
And it's like it adds thelikelihood of them being able to
(21:04):
make that kind of conversion ortransition from big company to
startup.
Not saying that it can't bedone, it's just that I've seen
it fail so often that I look atit as a risk aversion thing.
I just need to stay away from itfrom our customers because I
want to ensure we're getting theright person.
And that's is it fair enough tobe able to do that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
So I'm gonna play devil's advocate for you here,
actually.
Okay.
Uh so I would say that can be abias of yours as well, that
because you have seen thathappen multiple times, now you
have also created this bias foryourself that it might, more
often than not, is not a goodfit.
I have seen it go incrediblywell for poolside, actually, and
I have seen it going wrong.
(21:43):
I have seen both.
Um, we have put a couple thingsin place in the process to help
mitigating for this.
I definitely agree it's trickyand it's sometimes hard, but we
still interview them, mostlybecause we have found really
good talent that came from bigtech.
SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
And a lot of them for which for which um
department though?
That might be there might besome new ones there, too.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
I think I'll agree for both engineering and for
go-to-market, um, mostly.
Uh not so much GNA, maybe, but Ithink like it has served us in
both.
I definitely agree with you thatI mean it's it's I as I said,
it's been a learning curve forus for sure.
We have learned from that aswell.
But we basically tweak thehiring process to address for
this.
(22:25):
Um we do touch, especially inthe beginning, a lot on the
drive, the motivation on theperson trying to understand why
do you actually want to moveinto an earlier stage and try to
understand if they understandwhat they are getting themselves
into.
This is the biggest one.
And like a good question that Ilike to ask often is um like I
(22:45):
start with like what's been yourbiggest challenge over the past
whatever years?
How did you tackle?
Then, okay, then if you had toanticipate what you think would
be your biggest challenge in thecontext of full size, what do
you think that will be?
And then start cracking the icefrom there.
And some people will actually besurprisingly, okay, you are very
well aware of the challenges ofthis stage.
You know what you're gettingyourself into.
(23:06):
Other people are completelyunaware, and it's like, okay,
this might be a Bit of a yellowflag, and this is when then you
deep dive into the firstprinciples thinking, and then
it's when a lot of people fail.
We have a really low conversionrate in some of the technicals
because of that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
A lot of people really, it's it's hard, they
fail there, but we have beenreally trying to still interview
them, of course, if they have agreat profile, but really press
on those things, and then we areunforgiving.
If you are not ready, then it'sright.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
Yeah, I think that that's um, you know, I think for
like a lot of recruiters whenthey're starting out to a lot of
people become a recruiter, theywant to help people get jobs,
and it's like about you know,setting people up, and it really
is.
I mean, that is part of it, butit's also like you are like the
first line of defenseessentially to make sure that
only the absolute right peopleare getting through.
And of course, you're right,there's more nuance to um you
(23:57):
know, some folks who can makeit.
Uh yeah, I I like with earlierstage, I I usually I'm just
like, don't even just let's tryto find somebody very
hyper-similar environment,startup growth stage.
I think too, though, as you havea little bit more systems and
sophistication in place,probably when you cross like
100% threshold, or maybe as youbecome a little bit more
(24:18):
established, too, it becomes youknow more about your process and
interview process and what worksand what doesn't to dial in on
that even more, right?
Um, then I guess maybe somestartups too.
But yeah, that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
And then like within the process, you like in the
very beginning, the very fewpeople, like the first few
people, of course, it's more onyou to be thinking, like looking
at those CV and thinking, isthis a yes or no?
And you can really spend moretime on that.
And then as you are scaling, youneed to build a process that can
a machine that is oiled and itkind of works on itself in a
way.
(24:51):
And so in this, you need tostart thinking about biases,
different stages.
Can we start bringing peoplefrom different backgrounds and
how that plays out into theprocess?
So it's also a maturity of theprocess and how you start
opening other doors, you know,like maybe in the beginning you
wouldn't open.
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
Right.
And then you yeah, you start to,as you scale, you can and you
have a little more systems and alittle bit more process in
place, right?
Which also helps.
Uh well, so look, this is great.
I mean, this has been reallycool to learn more about your
story starting at the company'sfor uh for employees, and then
that initial playbook forbuilding out the team.
Now you're in a different place.
(25:31):
And I would love to get a sensefor what your goals currently
are at the company, maybe overthe next six to twelve months,
uh, whatever it might be, andyour strategy to get there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah.
So you might be aware that ourspace is extremely competitive
right now.
So the biggest challenge isdefinitely keep getting that top
talent from the market.
I think there is two challenges.
There is a challenge of theshortage of talent, like the
speed of what AI companies arehiring right now versus the
amount of talent that issuitable for this role that is
(26:07):
in the market that has the rightexperience that companies
ideally want to hire for.
There is a shortage of it.
So that's the first one.
And the second one is themassive competition.
There is so many new labs outthere, so many cool companies
building stuff now.
And we're all targeting more orless the same type of profiles.
And so I would say the biggestchallenge is definitely keep
targeting and keep the bar veryhigh when it comes to the
(26:30):
quality of the talent,especially when you come to a
150 number of people, is when alot of companies do this shift
and they start lowering the barin order to be able to keep
scaling.
And this is something that weactually had a conversation
recently about.
This is like we don't want to doit.
If our roadmap, and it's notdefined yet, but just to give a
number as an example, if ourroadmap was to hire 100 more
(26:52):
people and I hire 50 and they'reabsolute amazing, incredible
people, I'll be more happy thanif we had hired 90 and 20 of
them didn't make it, right?
Not just because of the cost tothe company, or even if maybe
they made it, but they wereaverage performers, I would be
less happy than if we hired lessand exceptional more senior
(27:14):
people.
And so there'll be uh there isscale that is coming at us and
that challenge with thecompetition, but we are really
focusing on how we can do thebest work of our lives with less
people that are more talented,uh more senior, and can really
have bring that autonomy andhigh agency into the workplace
(27:35):
versus in org.
Um of course, we have now openedthe doors like to more junior
people that are extremely brightand bring kind of uh some fresh
air into the company.
It's been lovely.
But those junior people are alsohigh agency and high autonomy,
right?
And so they don't need a lot ofhand holding.
So, in anyways, I'm digressing alittle bit, but that's
definitely one.
(27:55):
Um and well, full side, we areon this race, right?
And so the next uh two years, wewe just have to be completely
hands down, head down, and andfocus in that.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Yeah.
And so you're gonna be scalingout the team.
You're thinking about thedifferent talent that you're
bringing on.
Um, it's gonna be to someextent, you said you're able to
bring on some more juniortalent.
I suppose is that because insome of the departments you have
more process and systems builtout?
Is that like sales talent orengineering talent?
Where do you think you're gonnabe focused on?
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Yeah, I would say it's more engineering.
We'll focus more on engineeringhiring.
I would say it's the biggestportion of the company and it
will continue to be at least forthe next uh six to 12 months,
and I hope for a long time,given the nature of our
business.
Um but I would say it's one wehave a bit more structure now
that we are able to give alittle bit more support to
people, but also because thereis, you know, the concept of
(28:48):
seniority, in my opinion, iswell it's not as straightforward
as I think a few years ago wasin talent acquisition that you
specifically looked for years ofexperience.
I have seen more and more theindustry like drifting away from
that, which I personally alsobelieve on.
I have seen people with threeyears of experience that have
kicked ass a lot more thansomeone with 15 years of
experience, and vice versa aswell.
(29:10):
Um, but more and more I feellike those years of experience
matter a bit less.
And it's more about the peoplethat actually want to bring the
right impact and want to writethe right things, are super
intelligent, are talented, uhare passionate about what they
do.
And so it's a specific type ofjunior, though.
It's those juniors that reallywant to kind of bring the world.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
The incredible behavioral fits, right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
That makes such a big difference.
I that's one thing that I'velearned is you can never at a
startup and growth changecompany, you can never
compromise on behavioral fits.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
You can't.
Like that strong yes that youwere talking about earlier.
Yeah, every time it's because ofthe behavioral element.
I mean, I like skill set at theend of the day, it's like even
when I look at my must-haves,it's like I'm, you know, really
at the end of the day, it's tome, it's if they're a strong
behavioral fit, as long as theyhave the the majority of the
skills that we need, I'm okaywith them not having certain
(30:11):
aspects of it of what's on theJD or hiring folks that are a
little bit more junior.
Because you know, if somebody'sthe right behavioral fit,
they're just gonna bulldozethrough any any potential
problem.
They're gonna figure it out.
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
Absolutely.
And hard skills, like dependingon the role and what are your
needs, of course, in whatcontext you are in, but they are
more cultureable, right?
You can always learn, you canalways get there.
But the behavioral piece, yourinner drive, it's not something
I believe can be coached.
So you either are a fit oryou're not a fit.
And this is something that we wereally from the beginning, we
(30:44):
have always been very honestwith people.
This is our type of environment,this is who thrive here.
If this is not for you, you canself-select out.
That's okay.
No one is gonna be offended.
It's totally fine.
But really allowing people tomake their own decisions, you
know, like people are adults.
If you are applying for a job,you are definitely of a
majority.
You probably have been in themarket for a couple of years.
(31:06):
And so you can definitely makeyour own decisions.
So giving people the informationto make informed decisions about
is this the workplace I want towork for?
Is this the culture?
Is this the values?
Um, and we have had peopleself-selecting out and said,
look, I don't think this is theright thing for me.
That's good.
Like you saved both of us time.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
Right.
Yeah, I think that that'sactually important for folks to
understand is it's actually youshould have a certain percentage
of your candidatesself-selecting out.
That's a good thing.
Sometimes lower conversion ratesfor many reasons actually are a
good thing between interviewrounds, but there should be a
certain percentage of people.
I mean, when uh for for one ofmy customers, I still do some
(31:47):
hands-on supports a company I'vebeen working with for five, six
years, and uh, I'm an advisorover there, and I still
interview folks at linger stagein the funnel for a few of their
open roles.
And I probably spend 10 to 15minutes talking to them about
the challenges uh and theproblems that uh the company is
(32:08):
working through.
Um, and I really slow down on itbecause what what I tell them is
like, look, I'm looking for theperson that is excited to solve
for these things.
Right?
Like, there's no right or wrong.
It's like some people are gonnahear what I'm saying and be
like, yes, this sounds like fun.
Other people are gonna hear thisand be like, no way.
So I try to pull that out ofpeople to, you know, it's easy
(32:30):
to sell people on the things wedo really well, but the right
people, they're gonna be excitedabout coming in and solving for
the challenge.
And I think that that's sort ofa startup gross stage mindset.
Like, absolutely probably you'reprobably the same.
But I mean, I like being able togo into a company where there's
a lot of work to be done,there's a lot of improvements to
be made, or something is isthere's this really high
(32:51):
potential, but something holdingus back, and we have to break
through.
I mean, that kind of stuff iswhat really excites me.
And for some people, that'stheir worst nightmare, right?
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
I mean exactly.
And that's that's why like thereis uh stages and companies for
everyone, and that's why likebeing in a startup in this type
of environment is notnecessarily cooler than being in
a bigger company because itdepends on what's your personal
drive, it depends on yourcircumstances, and honestly,
like what do you like doingreally?
Like what you know gets you outof bed every day?
(33:21):
You know, we are not all thesame.
So absolutely.
unknown (33:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:24):
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Well, uh, look, we're we'recoming up on time here.
And uh I wanted to see isrelated to pool side, is there
anything else that you wanted tomention that you're working on
or you're doing or that youthink would be helpful to
operators?
I know we have a handful ofquestions I want to cover with
you.
Uh more so rapid fire format,but anything else that you want
to talk through?
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
No, I think we are good so we can let's go.
Let's go to our questions.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
Okay.
All right, rapid fire questions.
So, not exactly yes, no.
Some of them are a little morecontext, but we're implementing
this uh segment to the show.
I think it'll be fun.
Um, the the big one, the fun oneis will AI replace recruiters?
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Uh, short answer is no, slightly longer is
partially.
So I personally don't believethat you can replace recruiters
in a sense there is a big humanconnection uh in the recruitment
pro in a recruitment processthat is well done.
In my opinion, there is a lot onvalues on and how people
(34:21):
interact with each other thatcannot be done by AI.
At least as of today, I don'tbelieve it.
But I would say there is a lotof the work that recruiters do
that will and should be replacedby AI because it's all of the
automation work that we spend ona day-to-day doing repetitive
tasks that no one likes, be myguest, of course.
(34:41):
But yeah, my answer is partiallypartially no.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
Yeah, I hear you on that.
Okay, cool.
What tools would you say aregame changers and which are all
hype?
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I don't particularly believe in tools as game
changers, to be honest.
I mean, they can be, dependingon your context, but I would say
there is no perfect tools.
There is tools for the problemsyou want to solve, for the
context, the stage you are in.
Um, it depends what you aretrying to achieve.
I have tools that have served mevery well in other stages.
(35:14):
And then you once you get to acertain stage, it no longer
serves you.
I still love those tools,absolutely, just not for the
context I'm in.
So my answer will be actually Iwill not name any tool.
I would say it depends on theproblem you're trying to solve
in the stage you are in.
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
I agree with you there too.
Okay, next question.
What is more productive, anoffice or remote?
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Hybrid.
I hope I can uh cheat on that umquestion.
So I have been I have done both.
I think like most people havedone both at this stage, or even
if those who haven't done fullyremote have done a hybrid.
Pullside is remote first.
We we have a little bit now of ahybrid that we go to Paris once
a month to be with the team.
(35:55):
Uh in my previous company, wewere hybrids.
I personally believe in givingpeople the autonomy and agency
to work remotely, to managetheir own lives.
It gives a lot of people freedomand time to manage their own
personal lives, their ownhobbies, family time, reduce
commute, and so on.
But it's also important to spendquality time in person.
(36:17):
And there are things that aresimply better done in person
than not.
So I really believe in a hybrid,but the hybrid that gives
freedom of choice rather than aforced you have to be at the
office every Monday type ofsituation.
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
Got it.
Got it.
Cool.
And what is the best piece ofcareer or leadership advice
you've ever received?
SPEAKER_00 (36:37):
This is my favorite question, I would say, of today.
Um I would say my biggest thebiggest advice I have received,
and it's the advice I like togive, is take the seat at the
table.
I would say confidence goes along way.
And through our throughout ourcareers, even if you are in a
leadership position or not, itdoesn't matter.
A lot of us at some point mightthink to ourselves that we are
(37:00):
not ready for something.
We are kind of we have impostersyndrome, and you don't want to
be in certain rooms because youkind of think you are a fraud
somehow, um, or you don't feelconfident enough in a specific
conversation, and then you don'treally take the opportunity to
go in and say something.
My biggest piece of advice isyou take that seat at the table.
(37:20):
Walk into that room that you arescared of.
Confidence goes a long way.
If you're lucky enough, you willnot be the smartest in a room.
Um, but you'll have the chanceto learn from other people,
you'll be out of your comfortzone.
But you might even get surprisedwith yourself with what you were
able to accomplish.
You might be able to be to beseen and heard by people that
(37:41):
you never thought that wouldlisten to you, but more
importantly, you will learn alot.
And that's how you you grow.
So take the seat at the table.
That's my biggest piece ofadvice that I have been given
and has helped me a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (37:54):
Well, that's great advice.
And the last question I have foryou is what is one book that has
had the biggest impact on yourlife or career?
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
So I love reading, so that's a hard one.
There is a few ones that I wouldrecommend.
Um, a book that that has helpedme a lot is called The Coaching
Habit from uh Michael Senior.
That book was actuallyrecommended by my coach, and
it's how any people in aposition of management,
(38:24):
leadership, mentoring, whateverthat is, should know how to
coach others to an extent andhaving the coaching mentality in
conversations.
That's been incredibly helpfulfor my role specifically, but I
do recommend that to everyoneand anyone that I mentor.
That's one.
On a more personal level, I lovethe book 4,000 weeks.
Um, I would say that book isincredibly interesting.
(38:47):
It's not about HR, it's notabout building a business at
all.
But it gives you perspective intime.
Like what's actual time?
An average lifetime has 4,000weeks.
When you think about 4,000weeks, that kind of sounds a bit
short, doesn't it?
Um it give me that actuallycancel a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:04):
Oh, sorry when you talk about it now.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
I'm sorry if that sounds a bit dark, but the the
way that you look at time anddecisions, and it's I think the
biggest conclusion of the book,without wanting to spoil anyone,
at least for me personally,there is many conclusions and
views you can take of it, isreally you need to make choices
and you need to commit to them.
(39:27):
You cannot be here waiting tosay, oh yeah, okay, then I can
make that choice, and then Iwill tomorrow I'll do that, and
then I'll never really commit toanything because I have enough
time in life to do all of it.
Well, actually, we don't.
Our lives are finite, and so youhave to make decisions and
commit to them.
And if they don't work, then youmove on to the next one.
So that's like it reallytranslates to a lot of areas of
(39:48):
life.
I love that book.
And then final one, which isvery, very helpful for HR
leaders, leaders in general, isscaling people.
Uh, the stripe book from ClaireUm Johnson.
I love that book, it'sphenomenal.
I would say any startup oranyone who is building a
business should buy that bookand go home and read it and
spend a lot of time on itbecause it's exceptional.
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, there you go.
I gotta check it, I gotta checkthose out.
Thank you.
Yeah, cool.
I got some reading to do.
SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
Cool.
Enjoy.
I hope so.
I hope you enjoy.
Let me know what you think ofthat.
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Yeah, I know I definitely will.
I will.
Um, well, look, I coming up ontime, I just wanted to say thank
you so much for joining ustoday.
It's been a really excitingepisode.
I know everyone tuning in isgoing to have learned uh a lot.
And um, so thank you for joiningus and sharing your insights.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (40:38):
Thanks for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Um season.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Great.
And for everybody tuning in,just so you know, we're gonna be
getting back to a regularepisode cadence of every Tuesday
and Thursday morning releases.
So uh stay tuned for moreamazing episodes.
Talk to you soon.
unknown (40:54):
Bye.
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