October 23, 2025 • 26 mins
Play isn’t just fun—it’s a blueprint for learning. In this episode, Dr. Lisa Hassler and Matt Dalio (Endless Studios/Foundation) explore how student game-making builds creativity, collaboration, and resilience while scaffolding real tools—from no-code building to Unity and Blender.
We unpack the research on learning by making, connect Jane McGonigal’s mechanics of motivation to classroom practice, and trace a big-picture story from the printing press to software literacy.
Matt lays out why the next divide is not just devices and bandwidth, but the ability to create with digital tools and command AI workflows. You’ll hear how teachers can launch projects in minutes, not months. Along the way, we challenge the input-obsessed mindset of school and advocate for outcome-focused learning: build something that works, share it, improve it.
Highlights:
- Research showing gains from student-created games
- Endstar’s classroom-friendly on-ramp to pro tools: from no-code to Unity
- Multidisciplinary learning: CS, art, writing, math, project mgmt
- Equity: offline-first kits + affordable devices
- AI, software literacy, and outcome-based learning
- Play as a driver of learning, resilience, and creativity
- Classroom rollout, peer learning, and ready-to-use curricula
- Closing the digital divide with devices and offline content
- Becoming power users of AI and building real-world outputs
Matt Dalio- m@endlessstudios.com
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Trusted dental care for healthy smiles and stronger communities—building brighter futures daily.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (00:00):
Do you want to play?
It's a phrase every childknows.
However, the pastime isn't justa distraction.
It's a blueprint for learning,resilience, and creativity.
From ancient Egyptian boardgames to Minecraft worlds built
black by black, games havealways helped us learn how to
survive, collaborate, andimagine new possibilities.
(00:20):
Today we ask, what happens whenstudents don't just play games,
but create them?
Welcome to the brighter side ofeducation, research,
innovation, and resources.
(00:40):
I'm your host, Dr.
Lisa Hassler, here to enlightenand brighten the classrooms in
America through focusedconversation on important topics
in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
What are the variables?
And how can we duplicate it tomaximize student outcomes?
(01:01):
From carved stones in ancientMesopotamia to algorithm-powered
platforms today, humans havealways played games.
Long before formal schooling,games helped us practice
survival, build community, andpass on knowledge.
They are our earliestsimulations, safe ways to
experiment with rules, outcomes,and ideas.
Game theorist Roger Kalios,writing in the mid-20th century,
(01:25):
classified human play intoforms like competition, chance,
mimicry, and exploration.
These same forms show up todayin everything from chess and tag
to Minecraft and Roblox.
And the educational value ofgame making is no longer just
intuitive, it's supported byresearch.
A 2021 study in educationaltechnology research and
(01:46):
development found that studentswho create their own games show
significant gains not only intechnical skills like coding,
but also in creativity,collaboration, and resilience.
Game designer and researcherJane McGonagall has spent her
career showing how the mechanicsof play with clear goals,
rules, feedback, and voluntaryparticipation can drive
(02:07):
motivation and learning.
In her book Reality is Broken,she argues that games can be
designed to address real-worldproblems and enhance individual
and collective well-being.
And she puts it simply (02:16):
reality is broken.
Game designers can fix it.
That idea is more thanphilosophical, it's actionable.
When students design their owngames, they aren't just learning
to code.
They're learning to thinksystematically, solve
creatively, and take ownershipof challenges.
It's a mindset shift frompassive learning to purposeful
(02:37):
creation, which brings us totoday's guest, Matt Dalio, who
is putting that philosophy intopractice.
Matt is the founder of EndlessStudios and Endless Foundation,
two organizations reimaginingwhat it means for students to
learn and lead in the digitalage.
His work blends the creativechallenge of game making with a
mission of equity, ensuring thatstudents have access to tools
(02:58):
they need to become digitalcreators.
Through Endless Studios,students explore coding, design,
and problem solving by buildingtheir own games.
Meanwhile, the EndlessFoundation expands access to
affordable technology andoffline first learning tools,
helping close the digital dividefor learners around the world.
Well, welcome, Matt, to thebrighter side of education.
Matt Dalio (03:19):
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (03:20):
What do you think is broken about how we are
preparing young people for thereal world?
And how do you think that gamemaking offers a better path?
Matt Dalio (03:29):
The world's changed a lot and the education system
hasn't.
But especially with AI coming,there are people who are even on
the frontier of tech who areway behind in the world we have
today.
The mission we're on, which isto make sure that every kid in
the world who wants to have agood education and be ready for
the workforce as it lives todayand in the future is able to do
that.
That really actually feels likean existential challenge to us
(03:52):
in that AI is coming.
AI is going to wipe away somany jobs.
And the world in which everyonehas all of their income
opportunities wiped away, versusa world in which everyone is a
power user of AI, capable ofbecoming, you know, superhumans,
commanding magic out into theworld, manifesting their dreams
as, you know, with swarms of AIis working at their behest.
(04:14):
Like a world in which every kidhas access to that skill set as
they graduate into the world,and a world in which every kid
doesn't, to kind of be binaryabout it for a second, is a very
different version of humanity.
I'll just kind of give you someof the philosophical or
historical grounding, but Ithink about it a lot, which is
that when the printing presscame out, everyone thinks the
(04:34):
world changed immediately, butit really didn't.
Like the nature of the church'srole in society and politics,
that did change.
And interestingly, Leonardo daVinci was born the same year as
the printing press.
So you had things like the highrenaissance that were able to
happen that could not havehappened without the printing
press.
But for the average person,their life did not change.
They were on a farm when theprinting press was invented, and
(04:55):
they were on a farm hundreds ofyears later.
And it wasn't until one countryinvested in literacy that the
world changed.
To track literacy rates overthose years, for hundreds of
years, they basically didn'tincrease.
It looked almost flat.
There's one country thatinvested in building an empire,
and they needed to educate theirpeople to build an empire.
(05:16):
This was the UK.
But to teach people, you haveto teach them to read and write.
And so when the UK hit 65%literacy, majority literacy, the
industrial revolution happened.
And it was the industrialrevolution that changed
everything about the wayeveryone lived.
What it takes to build anindustrial revolution, it takes
(05:36):
an entire society being capableof contributing, an entire
society lifted up.
So the parallel to today isthat we have this incredible
tool that people talk about asthe printing press of our time,
whether that's the internet orAI, it's the same concept.
These incredibly powerfultools.
But if you look at thepercentage of today's society
that's capable of reading andwriting in this thing called
(05:58):
software, in other words, truefluency, the literacy rates
today for that tool are lowerthan actual literacy rates in
the dark ages.
So when I think literacy, Imean I can create, I can do the
things in Silicon Valley thatpeople are doing to push the
frontiers across so manydifferent topics.
And so our mission is to builda world in which that literacy
(06:20):
is totally democratized.
So now when I go back to yourquestion of like what's broken
about society, fundamentally thepeople who are supposed to
teach the skills that humanitydepends on don't have those
skills themselves.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:33):
I think that that's been recognized as a key
element and a gap in theknowledge that we definitely
need to know it before we canpass it on.
Matt Dalio (06:42):
The teachers are a linchpin to the mentorship and
the humanity and the guiding ofthe hand, those teachers need to
be scaffold with aninfrastructure that makes them
successful.
But how you democratize accessto the tools led us to realize
you have to also then teach theskills when people have the
tools.
Our answers to that questioncame in the form of games.
(07:02):
I remember walking into aclassroom for the first time and
seeing the entire classroom waserupting in numbers as they
were shouting theirmultiplication tables because it
was in the form of a game.
Games can engage.
That's the hardest challenge ineducation.
And the second insight was Iwas curious how our engineers
had learned to code.
And I've heard the same answerover and over again.
(07:24):
And it was as a kid, I lovedgames.
And then I discovered I couldhack my games.
And so that story I just heardover and over again across our
team.
Mark Zuckerberg learned thisway, and Elon Musk learned this
way.
And I got to meet Bill Gatesand I asked him, What was your
first experience?
And he's like, Yeah, the firstthing I ever coded was a game.
And so if this is the way thatall these tech titans are
(07:47):
learning the hardest technicalskill, there are many technical
skills, design, art, you know,project management, lots of
them, but the hardest of them iscode.
And if they're all learning itthe same way, why aren't we
teaching this way?
That makes so much sense.
Yes.
In practice, when you take allthe ingredients that you would
want in a really highly engaginghands-on project for a
project-based digital literacyexperience, and you kind of
(08:10):
shake those all up, I kind ofsay, like, throw all the
ingredients in a black box,shake them up, see what comes
out the other end.
Literally, the only thing thatcomes out the other end is a
game.
The ingredients I put in there,it has to be obviously
engaging, it has to bemultidisciplinary, it needs to
involve right brain and leftbrain.
And so when you wrap thoseskills around something creative
and nimble that they're excitedabout that is so
(08:31):
multidisciplinary and thatrequires them to collaborate
across the disciplines, you endup teaching the most employable
skills in today's and the futureworkforce.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:41):
How would teachers use that?
Matt Dalio (08:43):
Um, so before I answer that question, education
is traditionally do you knowwhat a network effect is?
A network effect is the core ofbasically every tech product in
the world, which is that themore people join it, the better
it gets.
Uber is a network effect.
The more drivers there are, thebetter it is for the
passengers, the more passengersthere are, the better it is for
the network, the drivers, andthe more you go everywhere, the
(09:06):
better it is.
So everyone who gets added tothat network makes the network
better.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (09:10):
Right.
Matt Dalio (09:11):
Education is the classic anti-network effect.
And yet there are three billionyouth under the age of 25 years
old that we have to teach.
So we have traditionaleducation structured in
classrooms where you haveanti-network effects.
The smaller it is, the better,the bigger it is, the worse it
is.
Just as a by and large.
So the question of what wouldit look like for education to be
(09:33):
a network effect?
In other words, the more peopleare in this educational
experience, the better it is.
If you look at GitHub, GitHubis, you know, I often describe
the best school in the world.
And I define best on twolevels.
One is how many people is itteaching?
It's a hundred million peoplein GitHub, which is why it's so
good.
There are a hundred millionpeople in there all working on
(09:55):
different projects, alldifferent skill levels.
So you could find, you know,people who have your same
passions and interests, and youcan learn from them all
collaboratively, and you canjoin projects and they can
mentor you because they'retrying to do the projects.
So it's it's a hundred millionof those.
And it's also I define best asdoes it like, you know, does it
get you the job?
A very important role ofeducation is to teach you to do
(10:18):
the job.
Well, the best way to learn todo the job is to do the job.
And so the 100 million peopleinside of GitHub are actually
doing the job.
They are in the place thattheir work takes place.
And so when they come in,whether they're, you know, at
the top of that skill curve or atotal novice, whether they're
15 years old or 50 years old,they are in a common community
(10:40):
creating together, doing thereal job.
And in fact, when when you goto Silicon Valley tech startups
and you ask, how do you hire?
They don't care what degree yougot from what university you
got it from.
They don't care about yourtranscript or your GPA.
I mean, sure they may look atthose, but the thing that they
actually look at is your code inGitHub.
Really?
(11:01):
What have you built?
Show me the code.
And then you care about whatare you like to work with.
In an open community like this,you have visibility into both.
The work is work on realprojects.
All of that mentorship,implicit mentorship for the
hundred million people, theydon't have to pay a dime for it.
Wow.
So I say that because there arethe two main pillars of what we
do that I have to put on thetable before I answer the direct
(11:22):
question of like, and how doessomeone do this?
Okay.
The first is wow, games are agreat teaching environment.
And the other one is wow,GitHub's a great teaching
environment.
Yeah.
So let's merge those.
Okay.
Okay.
Now I can answer your question,which is to do what we've just
described.
You've built that curriculum.
Because to oversimplify theworld of game creation, you have
(11:43):
things like Minecraft, whichsix-year-olds can use.
Right.
But it's not real games you'rebuilding inside of there.
It's not real skills you'rebuilding inside of there.
And then on the other end, youhave real tools like Unity,
which 70% of the world's gamesare built on top of, it is the
professional game engine.
But if you took a collegestudent and put them in there
for weeks, they might be able tobuild a game.
It's very complicated.
(12:03):
It's a professional tool.
So what we had to build, notbecause we wanted to get people
into the professional tools, wasa tool that made it so simple
that a six-year-old could go andplace blocks to use that
mechanic, because every kidknows how to use that place
block mechanic.
And when you look at the tooljust as a first snapshot, you're
like, oh, this is a Minecraftclone, which we want.
But then what we do is we putinside of it all of the layers
(12:26):
of the onion that allow you toscaffold back into the
professional tool.
So it's built on Unity.
And we do things like havelevers that open doors with
wiring systems that can get verycomplex in the logic, that rule
down to rule blocks that youcan create that teach
computational thinking, down toa scripting layer so that you
(12:47):
can see what others havescripted in real code and tweak
it or write your own scripts, orin the future use AI to help
you write scripts, which thenalso brings you into Unity,
where you can make customtextures and custom props and
custom characters.
And that brings you into toolslike Blender, which is a 3D
modeling, industry standard 3Dmodeling software.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:08):
Wow.
Matt Dalio (13:08):
And so it's this sort of journey that walks you
really slowly, whether you areyou want to get there in five
hours or five days or fiveyears, walks you very slowly
into at every step of theexperience learning and
delighting, but slowly walkinginto true professional industry
standard tools.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:27):
Wow.
Matt Dalio (13:27):
So the most concrete answer to how someone can, you
know, kind of deploy what we'redoing is that tool.
It's called NSTAR.
It's on our website,endlessstudios.com.
And you you can go download anduse it.
It's free.
Teachers were like, oh my God,I've never seen this kid so
engaged.
Because when we present, wehave a five-minute spiel we
give.
Before we're done with thefive-minute spiel, the kids are
(13:48):
already off and running.
They're not paying attention tous.
They did things that ourengineers were shocked they had
done.
Like they made this like wavesof spike traps.
It was like, how did you dothat?
And it was so cool because onekid had the idea and you could
see that kid shared it withanother kid.
And next thing you know, it'sin two games in the same
classroom because peer-to-peerlearning is happening.
So that's the simplest,frankly, is go get that tool.
(14:11):
Um, and unfortunately, rightnow it's not on mobile yet, but
it will be.
Ultimately, where we aspire toget is to be a community where
any teacher or anyone whodoesn't have a teacher can come
use these tools and to lean onyour peers in the community and
join projects that are biggerthan their own.
So the playing will teach youthe foundational skills to be
(14:32):
able to do more.
And then we launch you intomore, which is you're off and
running, and there's just awhole community, and and
literally you could do it for alifetime.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:40):
So now a teacher, if she was to do this,
does she have like a class?
Does everybody just do this ontheir own?
Like what supervision is there?
Matt Dalio (14:48):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Um, we're in the middle of aadding classroom management
features to make it really easyfor teachers to deploy it into
classrooms.
But uh, you know, the the thesimplest answer today is go
download it, have your kidsdownload it, put it on the uh on
the computers and and basicallyjust go play.
Yes.
We do have curriculum that wehave not put online openly.
(15:09):
But if anyone wants this, emailme at m atendlessstudios.com.
I'm always scared to put myemail address out there, but uh
we'll see how that goes.
I am slow to respond on email,so don't take it personally, but
but I'll make sure it gets tothe right people.
But we're happy to send alongthe materials.
If enough people ask, we'lljust put them in the right place
on the website um so thatpeople can take them.
But the idea is that we'vecreated literally an entire
(15:29):
course and and there aredifferent lengths of course,
everything from like I havethree hours, let me do
something, or I have an hour,all the way to I have three
months, and I want to walk mystudents through this
experience.
And so we have all of the kindof the PDFs with the pedagogy
designed in a way that it's veryeasy for a teacher with no
experience to go in and teachit.
All the materials are there,links to the how-to videos are
(15:51):
there, links to all of therelevant materials, so that
again, the idea is the studentdoesn't have to worry about not
having access to this, andtherefore also the teacher
doesn't have to worry.
What we want is teachers to beable to do what they do best,
which is to have the humanconnection, the guidance, the
mentorship, to bring whateverskills they have.
If someone is the codingteacher or the geometry teacher
(16:12):
or the art teacher, they shouldall be able to teach this.
This shouldn't be relegated tolike only the computer science
teacher can teach 21st centuryskills because 21st century
skills are all of thedisciplines.
The history teacher should beable to come in and say, let's
use this game to build gamesthat teach about history.
It's like the equivalent of adigital diorama.
To make a game is a totallydifferent thing than to play a
(16:34):
game.
From the skills you build tothe endorphins that they pull,
the parts of the brain that theyactivate.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:39):
Yes.
Matt Dalio (16:40):
But we just see this kind of universal engagement,
especially among youth.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:45):
So I just love that this is tapping into both.
Games are just very natural tous.
You know, we want to make themand they're fun to do.
Matt Dalio (17:03):
Kids play because what they learn in play teaches
them what they will ultimatelyneed to be successful in our
tribes as adults.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:11):
Very true.
Matt Dalio (17:12):
And somewhere along the way, you ask the question
about like what's wrong witheducation.
And we take the play, we takethe fun out of learning.
Yeah, we know scientifically welearn more when we're having
fun.
And so, you know, one of thethe aspirations that we have for
for the tool that I describedbefore, which is kind of one
part of what we're doing, but avery central part, is the
(17:34):
aspiration that teachers willstart using it themselves to
build games, to teach the thingsthat they want their students
to learn, and that that willgrow an ecosystem of learning
games.
Because today, learning gamescost too much to build.
And so you really can't buildquality learning games at the
scale that's necessary.
Learning and games used to beso tightly tied together:
(17:55):
SimCity, Civilization, OregonTrail, like these were things
that the teachers and parentswanted their kids to be in
because they were good for them.
And then somewhere along theway, they spread out, right?
That the games became so big,and the budgets for consumer
games were like Grand Theft Autobecame billion-dollar budgets.
It there's just such adifference between the quality
of one and the other.
(18:15):
And so, in building a tool thatmakes it really easy to build
highly engaging games that looklike the types of games that one
would expect as a consumer inthis modern landscape, but make
it really easy for teachers tothen do it in ways that teach.
You can create kind of thisproliferation of games that you
want your kids to play.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (18:35):
So if you go in there, would you have the
ability to have that type of artand dynamics, you know, that
you would see in something likeFortnite, let's say, versus
something like Frogger?
Matt Dalio (18:46):
That's a super, super, super, super important
point.
Is it has to be 3D in somesense.
Like it has to be visuallygorgeous, it has to be
enrapturing because thosequality games are that way.
So, you know, we aredeliberately building the tools
so that anyone can make it feellike whatever they want.
You want a Candyland game,great, go for it.
You want a you know, cyberpunkgame, go for it.
(19:09):
Like, and our aspiration isthat it looks like whatever the
the audience wants it to looklike, but that it always looks
like high quality products.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:17):
And it would be like a Wix website, for
instance.
And so I build it on my own,but I have no coding background
whatsoever.
Matt Dalio (19:25):
And and like Wix, you you can do the whole thing
with no code at all.
And you can also go do customscripts.
It's a really good tool toscaffold you into learning
because you can the scripts aresimple and you can wrap your
head around them, and then thatcan teach you how to build real
websites.
So it's exactly what you justdescribed.
I don't need any code at all.
Right.
But I also have wiring systemsthat teach me computational
(19:47):
thinking.
It's built on Unity, the mostpopular game engine of the
world.
So you have access to Unityunder the hood.
It's not little tool.
It's no, it's Unity you haveaccess to.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:57):
What age would you use it most?
Matt Dalio (19:59):
So a six-year-old can go download this tool.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:01):
Wow.
Matt Dalio (20:02):
Go for a run run with it.
Our primary focus is is older,it's college and high school.
And that's also the most urgentbecause you have a whole
generation of youth graduatingwith AI coming.
We're kind of chipping away ateach part of the curve, but the
hardest part is the part thatwe're cracking right now, which
is build a community where likethe best students in the world
(20:22):
and the best game makers in theworld all want to build
together.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:25):
And then you build the on-ramp for more
people at younger and youngerages to be able to go into and
you're helping address thedigital divide and making game
making more available to all.
You're talking about device andinternet access.
How is how is Endlessaddressing this?
Matt Dalio (20:41):
Endless has a to oversimplify um a company and a
foundation.
The foundation was really bornout of what I started doing.
And for about a decade, Ifocused on laptop access in
emerging markets.
How do you make the mostpowerful educational and
creation tool in historyavailable to the 5 billion
people who don't have it?
Um, and if you don't haveinternet access, how do you
still make it useful?
And the long story short isthat a pay as you go financing
(21:04):
mechanism that makes nowfinancing available to people
who normally aren't creditworthy makes it so that now
about a billion, two billion,maybe three billion more people
can't afford it at the pricepoint that that that that
unlocks, you know, which isabout $10 to $15 a month.
And then on the internet side,fill it with all the useful
content so that when theyconnect to the internet, it
refreshes.
But if they're not on theinternet, it's still useful.
(21:24):
And so those two things unlockum a lot more people being able
to have access to it.
And we actually, just bycoincidence, this week um signed
a very, very exciting uhcontract to distribute laptops
to the largest solar paneldistributor in in Africa.
So they're going to be rollingout cool things there.
Um, we're doing stuff with oneof the large banks in Latin
America.
Anyway, so cool thingshappening on that front.
(21:45):
But the answer to the questionultimately for how you make it
so that everyone can have accessto the skills is that they have
to also have access to thetools.
I often describe kind of thisnotion of like Maslow's
hierarchy of needs.
Yes.
It's like hierarchy, thispyramid hierarchy of educational
needs.
You have to have electricity toget a laptop, you have to have
(22:06):
a laptop to get internet, youhave to have internet to get the
digital skills, you have tohave the skills to get the job.
And then if you have the job,you can, you know,
self-actualization.
And so in partnering with theelectricity providers to
distribute the laptops andmaking it so that the internet
is optional, not irrelevant, butoptional, means that now anyone
anywhere can have the skills.
And so when you teach thoseskills to wherever they are,
(22:30):
that person is now all of asudden an employable human
being.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (22:33):
What's the biggest opportunity you see
right now to empower youth?
Matt Dalio (22:37):
Teach them to be the power user of AI.
There are layers that are notthat hard to learn.
Like literally, if you just goto YouTube and you look at tools
like N8N and Zapier, it'ssomeone who's curious and has
the time.
And so when you can use thevessel of games, because that
gets people excited, and thecommunity where they can learn
(23:00):
from each other and depend oneach other to teach these kinds
of skills, those are the skillsthat will get you jobs.
That person is unfirable.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (23:07):
That's wonderful advice, and it's
definitely where we are headed.
Matt Dalio (23:11):
Could I add one last thought on AI?
School measures the inputs.
Like, did I write the essay ornot?
And there are really, reallyimportant reasons for which that
is true.
I just want to add that theworld measures you by the
outputs, the outcomes.
Did you hit your KPI?
Did you did you reach thatnumber of users?
Did you hit your revenuetargets?
(23:31):
Did you hit your sales targets?
So when I hire a marketer as anexample, I'm looking for the
output.
I don't care if they wrote thecopy.
I don't care.
I have I don't care at all whatinputs they used.
In fact, the less they used,then the more capacity I have
for them to deliver more.
It's a very different outlook.
Yeah.
There's a great book calledMeasure What Matters.
(23:52):
If you measure what matters inthe academic context, and it's
the same as in the work context.
And then you teach people howto do the thing that makes them
succeed at the thing thatmatters, then you're likely to
teach people how to do whatmatters.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (24:06):
I really appreciate you coming and
talking about ways that we canprepare our students and even
ourselves to be able to navigatethis space more confidently and
with more purpose.
What you're doing with Endlessand both the studios and the
foundation side is allowing morepeople to be able to access
that.
So thank you.
Matt Dalio (24:24):
Thank you for your time.
It's been a pleasure.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (24:26):
If today's episode reminded you of the
creative power of play, Iencourage you to explore how
game making can be part of yourclassroom or home.
In a time of rapid change, gamemaking may be one of the most
human things we can teach.
Let's make space for it.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at Lisa at
(24:46):
drlisaarhassler.com or visit mywebsite at
www.drlisaarhassler.com and sendme a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
(25:07):
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
Do you want to play?
It's a phrase every childknows.
However, the pastime isn't justa distraction.
It's a blueprint for learning,resilience, and creativity.
From ancient Egyptian boardgames to Minecraft worlds built
black by black, games havealways helped us learn how to
survive, collaborate, andimagine new possibilities.
(00:20):
Today we ask, what happens whenstudents don't just play games,
but create them?
Welcome to the brighter side ofeducation, research,
innovation, and resources.
(00:40):
I'm your host, Dr.
Lisa Hassler, here to enlightenand brighten the classrooms in
America through focusedconversation on important topics
in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
What are the variables?
And how can we duplicate it tomaximize student outcomes?
(01:01):
From carved stones in ancientMesopotamia to algorithm-powered
platforms today, humans havealways played games.
Long before formal schooling,games helped us practice
survival, build community, andpass on knowledge.
They are our earliestsimulations, safe ways to
experiment with rules, outcomes,and ideas.
Game theorist Roger Kalios,writing in the mid-20th century,
(01:25):
classified human play intoforms like competition, chance,
mimicry, and exploration.
These same forms show up todayin everything from chess and tag
to Minecraft and Roblox.
And the educational value ofgame making is no longer just
intuitive, it's supported byresearch.
A 2021 study in educationaltechnology research and
(01:46):
development found that studentswho create their own games show
significant gains not only intechnical skills like coding,
but also in creativity,collaboration, and resilience.
Game designer and researcherJane McGonagall has spent her
career showing how the mechanicsof play with clear goals,
rules, feedback, and voluntaryparticipation can drive
(02:07):
motivation and learning.
In her book Reality is Broken,she argues that games can be
designed to address real-worldproblems and enhance individual
and collective well-being.
And she puts it simply (02:16):
reality is broken.
Game designers can fix it.
That idea is more thanphilosophical, it's actionable.
When students design their owngames, they aren't just learning
to code.
They're learning to thinksystematically, solve
creatively, and take ownershipof challenges.
It's a mindset shift frompassive learning to purposeful
(02:37):
creation, which brings us totoday's guest, Matt Dalio, who
is putting that philosophy intopractice.
Matt is the founder of EndlessStudios and Endless Foundation,
two organizations reimaginingwhat it means for students to
learn and lead in the digitalage.
His work blends the creativechallenge of game making with a
mission of equity, ensuring thatstudents have access to tools
(02:58):
they need to become digitalcreators.
Through Endless Studios,students explore coding, design,
and problem solving by buildingtheir own games.
Meanwhile, the EndlessFoundation expands access to
affordable technology andoffline first learning tools,
helping close the digital dividefor learners around the world.
Well, welcome, Matt, to thebrighter side of education.
Matt Dalio (03:19):
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (03:20):
What do you think is broken about how we are
preparing young people for thereal world?
And how do you think that gamemaking offers a better path?
Matt Dalio (03:29):
The world's changed a lot and the education system
hasn't.
But especially with AI coming,there are people who are even on
the frontier of tech who areway behind in the world we have
today.
The mission we're on, which isto make sure that every kid in
the world who wants to have agood education and be ready for
the workforce as it lives todayand in the future is able to do
that.
That really actually feels likean existential challenge to us
(03:52):
in that AI is coming.
AI is going to wipe away somany jobs.
And the world in which everyonehas all of their income
opportunities wiped away, versusa world in which everyone is a
power user of AI, capable ofbecoming, you know, superhumans,
commanding magic out into theworld, manifesting their dreams
as, you know, with swarms of AIis working at their behest.
(04:14):
Like a world in which every kidhas access to that skill set as
they graduate into the world,and a world in which every kid
doesn't, to kind of be binaryabout it for a second, is a very
different version of humanity.
I'll just kind of give you someof the philosophical or
historical grounding, but Ithink about it a lot, which is
that when the printing presscame out, everyone thinks the
(04:34):
world changed immediately, butit really didn't.
Like the nature of the church'srole in society and politics,
that did change.
And interestingly, Leonardo daVinci was born the same year as
the printing press.
So you had things like the highrenaissance that were able to
happen that could not havehappened without the printing
press.
But for the average person,their life did not change.
They were on a farm when theprinting press was invented, and
(04:55):
they were on a farm hundreds ofyears later.
And it wasn't until one countryinvested in literacy that the
world changed.
To track literacy rates overthose years, for hundreds of
years, they basically didn'tincrease.
It looked almost flat.
There's one country thatinvested in building an empire,
and they needed to educate theirpeople to build an empire.
(05:16):
This was the UK.
But to teach people, you haveto teach them to read and write.
And so when the UK hit 65%literacy, majority literacy, the
industrial revolution happened.
And it was the industrialrevolution that changed
everything about the wayeveryone lived.
What it takes to build anindustrial revolution, it takes
(05:36):
an entire society being capableof contributing, an entire
society lifted up.
So the parallel to today isthat we have this incredible
tool that people talk about asthe printing press of our time,
whether that's the internet orAI, it's the same concept.
These incredibly powerfultools.
But if you look at thepercentage of today's society
that's capable of reading andwriting in this thing called
(05:58):
software, in other words, truefluency, the literacy rates
today for that tool are lowerthan actual literacy rates in
the dark ages.
So when I think literacy, Imean I can create, I can do the
things in Silicon Valley thatpeople are doing to push the
frontiers across so manydifferent topics.
And so our mission is to builda world in which that literacy
(06:20):
is totally democratized.
So now when I go back to yourquestion of like what's broken
about society, fundamentally thepeople who are supposed to
teach the skills that humanitydepends on don't have those
skills themselves.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:33):
I think that that's been recognized as a key
element and a gap in theknowledge that we definitely
need to know it before we canpass it on.
Matt Dalio (06:42):
The teachers are a linchpin to the mentorship and
the humanity and the guiding ofthe hand, those teachers need to
be scaffold with aninfrastructure that makes them
successful.
But how you democratize accessto the tools led us to realize
you have to also then teach theskills when people have the
tools.
Our answers to that questioncame in the form of games.
(07:02):
I remember walking into aclassroom for the first time and
seeing the entire classroom waserupting in numbers as they
were shouting theirmultiplication tables because it
was in the form of a game.
Games can engage.
That's the hardest challenge ineducation.
And the second insight was Iwas curious how our engineers
had learned to code.
And I've heard the same answerover and over again.
(07:24):
And it was as a kid, I lovedgames.
And then I discovered I couldhack my games.
And so that story I just heardover and over again across our
team.
Mark Zuckerberg learned thisway, and Elon Musk learned this
way.
And I got to meet Bill Gatesand I asked him, What was your
first experience?
And he's like, Yeah, the firstthing I ever coded was a game.
And so if this is the way thatall these tech titans are
(07:47):
learning the hardest technicalskill, there are many technical
skills, design, art, you know,project management, lots of
them, but the hardest of them iscode.
And if they're all learning itthe same way, why aren't we
teaching this way?
That makes so much sense.
Yes.
In practice, when you take allthe ingredients that you would
want in a really highly engaginghands-on project for a
project-based digital literacyexperience, and you kind of
(08:10):
shake those all up, I kind ofsay, like, throw all the
ingredients in a black box,shake them up, see what comes
out the other end.
Literally, the only thing thatcomes out the other end is a
game.
The ingredients I put in there,it has to be obviously
engaging, it has to bemultidisciplinary, it needs to
involve right brain and leftbrain.
And so when you wrap thoseskills around something creative
and nimble that they're excitedabout that is so
(08:31):
multidisciplinary and thatrequires them to collaborate
across the disciplines, you endup teaching the most employable
skills in today's and the futureworkforce.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:41):
How would teachers use that?
Matt Dalio (08:43):
Um, so before I answer that question, education
is traditionally do you knowwhat a network effect is?
A network effect is the core ofbasically every tech product in
the world, which is that themore people join it, the better
it gets.
Uber is a network effect.
The more drivers there are, thebetter it is for the
passengers, the more passengersthere are, the better it is for
the network, the drivers, andthe more you go everywhere, the
(09:06):
better it is.
So everyone who gets added tothat network makes the network
better.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (09:10):
Right.
Matt Dalio (09:11):
Education is the classic anti-network effect.
And yet there are three billionyouth under the age of 25 years
old that we have to teach.
So we have traditionaleducation structured in
classrooms where you haveanti-network effects.
The smaller it is, the better,the bigger it is, the worse it
is.
Just as a by and large.
So the question of what wouldit look like for education to be
(09:33):
a network effect?
In other words, the more peopleare in this educational
experience, the better it is.
If you look at GitHub, GitHubis, you know, I often describe
the best school in the world.
And I define best on twolevels.
One is how many people is itteaching?
It's a hundred million peoplein GitHub, which is why it's so
good.
There are a hundred millionpeople in there all working on
(09:55):
different projects, alldifferent skill levels.
So you could find, you know,people who have your same
passions and interests, and youcan learn from them all
collaboratively, and you canjoin projects and they can
mentor you because they'retrying to do the projects.
So it's it's a hundred millionof those.
And it's also I define best asdoes it like, you know, does it
get you the job?
A very important role ofeducation is to teach you to do
(10:18):
the job.
Well, the best way to learn todo the job is to do the job.
And so the 100 million peopleinside of GitHub are actually
doing the job.
They are in the place thattheir work takes place.
And so when they come in,whether they're, you know, at
the top of that skill curve or atotal novice, whether they're
15 years old or 50 years old,they are in a common community
(10:40):
creating together, doing thereal job.
And in fact, when when you goto Silicon Valley tech startups
and you ask, how do you hire?
They don't care what degree yougot from what university you
got it from.
They don't care about yourtranscript or your GPA.
I mean, sure they may look atthose, but the thing that they
actually look at is your code inGitHub.
Really?
(11:01):
What have you built?
Show me the code.
And then you care about whatare you like to work with.
In an open community like this,you have visibility into both.
The work is work on realprojects.
All of that mentorship,implicit mentorship for the
hundred million people, theydon't have to pay a dime for it.
Wow.
So I say that because there arethe two main pillars of what we
do that I have to put on thetable before I answer the direct
(11:22):
question of like, and how doessomeone do this?
Okay.
The first is wow, games are agreat teaching environment.
And the other one is wow,GitHub's a great teaching
environment.
Yeah.
So let's merge those.
Okay.
Okay.
Now I can answer your question,which is to do what we've just
described.
You've built that curriculum.
Because to oversimplify theworld of game creation, you have
(11:43):
things like Minecraft, whichsix-year-olds can use.
Right.
But it's not real games you'rebuilding inside of there.
It's not real skills you'rebuilding inside of there.
And then on the other end, youhave real tools like Unity,
which 70% of the world's gamesare built on top of, it is the
professional game engine.
But if you took a collegestudent and put them in there
for weeks, they might be able tobuild a game.
It's very complicated.
(12:03):
It's a professional tool.
So what we had to build, notbecause we wanted to get people
into the professional tools, wasa tool that made it so simple
that a six-year-old could go andplace blocks to use that
mechanic, because every kidknows how to use that place
block mechanic.
And when you look at the tooljust as a first snapshot, you're
like, oh, this is a Minecraftclone, which we want.
But then what we do is we putinside of it all of the layers
(12:26):
of the onion that allow you toscaffold back into the
professional tool.
So it's built on Unity.
And we do things like havelevers that open doors with
wiring systems that can get verycomplex in the logic, that rule
down to rule blocks that youcan create that teach
computational thinking, down toa scripting layer so that you
(12:47):
can see what others havescripted in real code and tweak
it or write your own scripts, orin the future use AI to help
you write scripts, which thenalso brings you into Unity,
where you can make customtextures and custom props and
custom characters.
And that brings you into toolslike Blender, which is a 3D
modeling, industry standard 3Dmodeling software.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:08):
Wow.
Matt Dalio (13:08):
And so it's this sort of journey that walks you
really slowly, whether you areyou want to get there in five
hours or five days or fiveyears, walks you very slowly
into at every step of theexperience learning and
delighting, but slowly walkinginto true professional industry
standard tools.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:27):
Wow.
Matt Dalio (13:27):
So the most concrete answer to how someone can, you
know, kind of deploy what we'redoing is that tool.
It's called NSTAR.
It's on our website,endlessstudios.com.
And you you can go download anduse it.
It's free.
Teachers were like, oh my God,I've never seen this kid so
engaged.
Because when we present, wehave a five-minute spiel we
give.
Before we're done with thefive-minute spiel, the kids are
(13:48):
already off and running.
They're not paying attention tous.
They did things that ourengineers were shocked they had
done.
Like they made this like wavesof spike traps.
It was like, how did you dothat?
And it was so cool because onekid had the idea and you could
see that kid shared it withanother kid.
And next thing you know, it'sin two games in the same
classroom because peer-to-peerlearning is happening.
So that's the simplest,frankly, is go get that tool.
(14:11):
Um, and unfortunately, rightnow it's not on mobile yet, but
it will be.
Ultimately, where we aspire toget is to be a community where
any teacher or anyone whodoesn't have a teacher can come
use these tools and to lean onyour peers in the community and
join projects that are biggerthan their own.
So the playing will teach youthe foundational skills to be
(14:32):
able to do more.
And then we launch you intomore, which is you're off and
running, and there's just awhole community, and and
literally you could do it for alifetime.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:40):
So now a teacher, if she was to do this,
does she have like a class?
Does everybody just do this ontheir own?
Like what supervision is there?
Matt Dalio (14:48):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Um, we're in the middle of aadding classroom management
features to make it really easyfor teachers to deploy it into
classrooms.
But uh, you know, the the thesimplest answer today is go
download it, have your kidsdownload it, put it on the uh on
the computers and and basicallyjust go play.
Yes.
We do have curriculum that wehave not put online openly.
(15:09):
But if anyone wants this, emailme at m atendlessstudios.com.
I'm always scared to put myemail address out there, but uh
we'll see how that goes.
I am slow to respond on email,so don't take it personally, but
but I'll make sure it gets tothe right people.
But we're happy to send alongthe materials.
If enough people ask, we'lljust put them in the right place
on the website um so thatpeople can take them.
But the idea is that we'vecreated literally an entire
(15:29):
course and and there aredifferent lengths of course,
everything from like I havethree hours, let me do
something, or I have an hour,all the way to I have three
months, and I want to walk mystudents through this
experience.
And so we have all of the kindof the PDFs with the pedagogy
designed in a way that it's veryeasy for a teacher with no
experience to go in and teachit.
All the materials are there,links to the how-to videos are
(15:51):
there, links to all of therelevant materials, so that
again, the idea is the studentdoesn't have to worry about not
having access to this, andtherefore also the teacher
doesn't have to worry.
What we want is teachers to beable to do what they do best,
which is to have the humanconnection, the guidance, the
mentorship, to bring whateverskills they have.
If someone is the codingteacher or the geometry teacher
(16:12):
or the art teacher, they shouldall be able to teach this.
This shouldn't be relegated tolike only the computer science
teacher can teach 21st centuryskills because 21st century
skills are all of thedisciplines.
The history teacher should beable to come in and say, let's
use this game to build gamesthat teach about history.
It's like the equivalent of adigital diorama.
To make a game is a totallydifferent thing than to play a
(16:34):
game.
From the skills you build tothe endorphins that they pull,
the parts of the brain that theyactivate.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:39):
Yes.
Matt Dalio (16:40):
But we just see this kind of universal engagement,
especially among youth.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:45):
So I just love that this is tapping into both.
Games are just very natural tous.
You know, we want to make themand they're fun to do.
Matt Dalio (17:03):
Kids play because what they learn in play teaches
them what they will ultimatelyneed to be successful in our
tribes as adults.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:11):
Very true.
Matt Dalio (17:12):
And somewhere along the way, you ask the question
about like what's wrong witheducation.
And we take the play, we takethe fun out of learning.
Yeah, we know scientifically welearn more when we're having
fun.
And so, you know, one of thethe aspirations that we have for
for the tool that I describedbefore, which is kind of one
part of what we're doing, but avery central part, is the
(17:34):
aspiration that teachers willstart using it themselves to
build games, to teach the thingsthat they want their students
to learn, and that that willgrow an ecosystem of learning
games.
Because today, learning gamescost too much to build.
And so you really can't buildquality learning games at the
scale that's necessary.
Learning and games used to beso tightly tied together:
(17:55):
SimCity, Civilization, OregonTrail, like these were things
that the teachers and parentswanted their kids to be in
because they were good for them.
And then somewhere along theway, they spread out, right?
That the games became so big,and the budgets for consumer
games were like Grand Theft Autobecame billion-dollar budgets.
It there's just such adifference between the quality
of one and the other.
(18:15):
And so, in building a tool thatmakes it really easy to build
highly engaging games that looklike the types of games that one
would expect as a consumer inthis modern landscape, but make
it really easy for teachers tothen do it in ways that teach.
You can create kind of thisproliferation of games that you
want your kids to play.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (18:35):
So if you go in there, would you have the
ability to have that type of artand dynamics, you know, that
you would see in something likeFortnite, let's say, versus
something like Frogger?
Matt Dalio (18:46):
That's a super, super, super, super important
point.
Is it has to be 3D in somesense.
Like it has to be visuallygorgeous, it has to be
enrapturing because thosequality games are that way.
So, you know, we aredeliberately building the tools
so that anyone can make it feellike whatever they want.
You want a Candyland game,great, go for it.
You want a you know, cyberpunkgame, go for it.
(19:09):
Like, and our aspiration isthat it looks like whatever the
the audience wants it to looklike, but that it always looks
like high quality products.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:17):
And it would be like a Wix website, for
instance.
And so I build it on my own,but I have no coding background
whatsoever.
Matt Dalio (19:25):
And and like Wix, you you can do the whole thing
with no code at all.
And you can also go do customscripts.
It's a really good tool toscaffold you into learning
because you can the scripts aresimple and you can wrap your
head around them, and then thatcan teach you how to build real
websites.
So it's exactly what you justdescribed.
I don't need any code at all.
Right.
But I also have wiring systemsthat teach me computational
(19:47):
thinking.
It's built on Unity, the mostpopular game engine of the
world.
So you have access to Unityunder the hood.
It's not little tool.
It's no, it's Unity you haveaccess to.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:57):
What age would you use it most?
Matt Dalio (19:59):
So a six-year-old can go download this tool.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:01):
Wow.
Matt Dalio (20:02):
Go for a run run with it.
Our primary focus is is older,it's college and high school.
And that's also the most urgentbecause you have a whole
generation of youth graduatingwith AI coming.
We're kind of chipping away ateach part of the curve, but the
hardest part is the part thatwe're cracking right now, which
is build a community where likethe best students in the world
(20:22):
and the best game makers in theworld all want to build
together.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:25):
And then you build the on-ramp for more
people at younger and youngerages to be able to go into and
you're helping address thedigital divide and making game
making more available to all.
You're talking about device andinternet access.
How is how is Endlessaddressing this?
Matt Dalio (20:41):
Endless has a to oversimplify um a company and a
foundation.
The foundation was really bornout of what I started doing.
And for about a decade, Ifocused on laptop access in
emerging markets.
How do you make the mostpowerful educational and
creation tool in historyavailable to the 5 billion
people who don't have it?
Um, and if you don't haveinternet access, how do you
still make it useful?
And the long story short isthat a pay as you go financing
(21:04):
mechanism that makes nowfinancing available to people
who normally aren't creditworthy makes it so that now
about a billion, two billion,maybe three billion more people
can't afford it at the pricepoint that that that that
unlocks, you know, which isabout $10 to $15 a month.
And then on the internet side,fill it with all the useful
content so that when theyconnect to the internet, it
refreshes.
But if they're not on theinternet, it's still useful.
(21:24):
And so those two things unlockum a lot more people being able
to have access to it.
And we actually, just bycoincidence, this week um signed
a very, very exciting uhcontract to distribute laptops
to the largest solar paneldistributor in in Africa.
So they're going to be rollingout cool things there.
Um, we're doing stuff with oneof the large banks in Latin
America.
Anyway, so cool thingshappening on that front.
(21:45):
But the answer to the questionultimately for how you make it
so that everyone can have accessto the skills is that they have
to also have access to thetools.
I often describe kind of thisnotion of like Maslow's
hierarchy of needs.
Yes.
It's like hierarchy, thispyramid hierarchy of educational
needs.
You have to have electricity toget a laptop, you have to have
(22:06):
a laptop to get internet, youhave to have internet to get the
digital skills, you have tohave the skills to get the job.
And then if you have the job,you can, you know,
self-actualization.
And so in partnering with theelectricity providers to
distribute the laptops andmaking it so that the internet
is optional, not irrelevant, butoptional, means that now anyone
anywhere can have the skills.
And so when you teach thoseskills to wherever they are,
(22:30):
that person is now all of asudden an employable human
being.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (22:33):
What's the biggest opportunity you see
right now to empower youth?
Matt Dalio (22:37):
Teach them to be the power user of AI.
There are layers that are notthat hard to learn.
Like literally, if you just goto YouTube and you look at tools
like N8N and Zapier, it'ssomeone who's curious and has
the time.
And so when you can use thevessel of games, because that
gets people excited, and thecommunity where they can learn
(23:00):
from each other and depend oneach other to teach these kinds
of skills, those are the skillsthat will get you jobs.
That person is unfirable.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (23:07):
That's wonderful advice, and it's
definitely where we are headed.
Matt Dalio (23:11):
Could I add one last thought on AI?
School measures the inputs.
Like, did I write the essay ornot?
And there are really, reallyimportant reasons for which that
is true.
I just want to add that theworld measures you by the
outputs, the outcomes.
Did you hit your KPI?
Did you did you reach thatnumber of users?
Did you hit your revenuetargets?
(23:31):
Did you hit your sales targets?
So when I hire a marketer as anexample, I'm looking for the
output.
I don't care if they wrote thecopy.
I don't care.
I have I don't care at all whatinputs they used.
In fact, the less they used,then the more capacity I have
for them to deliver more.
It's a very different outlook.
Yeah.
There's a great book calledMeasure What Matters.
(23:52):
If you measure what matters inthe academic context, and it's
the same as in the work context.
And then you teach people howto do the thing that makes them
succeed at the thing thatmatters, then you're likely to
teach people how to do whatmatters.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (24:06):
I really appreciate you coming and
talking about ways that we canprepare our students and even
ourselves to be able to navigatethis space more confidently and
with more purpose.
What you're doing with Endlessand both the studios and the
foundation side is allowing morepeople to be able to access
that.
So thank you.
Matt Dalio (24:24):
Thank you for your time.
It's been a pleasure.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (24:26):
If today's episode reminded you of the
creative power of play, Iencourage you to explore how
game making can be part of yourclassroom or home.
In a time of rapid change, gamemaking may be one of the most
human things we can teach.
Let's make space for it.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at Lisa at
(24:46):
drlisaarhassler.com or visit mywebsite at
www.drlisaarhassler.com and sendme a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
(25:07):
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
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