September 26, 2024 • 38 mins
What if mathematics could be as captivating and enjoyable as a symphony concert? In our latest episode, we promise you'll discover innovative ways to make math not only accessible but genuinely fun for everyone. Join me, Dr. Lisa Hassler, alongside Cindy Lawrence, the inspiring Executive Director and CEO of the National Museum of Mathematics (MoMath), as we explore the vital role of mathematics in our modern world and tackle the concerning decline in math performance among US students.
Cindy shares her personal journey from CPA to leading MoMath, revealing how a volunteer opportunity ignited her passion for transforming public perceptions of math through interactive exhibits. Listen to our conversation about how the museum’s engaging displays, like the square-wheeled tricycle and MotionScape, make complex concepts like calculus come to life. We discuss the importance of human interaction in teaching math, changing the narrative around the subject, and showcasing how deeply intertwined math is with our daily lives.
Looking for ways to bring the joy of math into your home? We've got you covered with creative strategies for parents and educators. From noticing patterns and symmetry in your environment to solving real-world puzzles, we share practical tips to foster a positive math experience. You'll also hear inspiring stories like that of Eileen Collins, the first female commander of a space shuttle mission, who overcame her math struggles to achieve her dreams. Tune in to be inspired and learn how you can make math an exciting and integral part of learning and life.
Need math help? Go to MoMath and talk to a mathematician!
đź’ˇ This episode is CPD accredited!
 Educators can now earn Continuing Professional Development (CPD) minutes by listening. To claim your certificate:
- Listen to the full episode
- Visit https://thecpd.group/podcast
- Enter code 800071 to check in and download your certificate
Continue your professional growth—one episode at a time.
Great News! The Brighter Side of Education is now CPD Accredited!
Sponsored by Dr. Gregg Hassler Jr., DMD
Trusted dental care for healthy smiles and stronger communities—building brighter futures daily.
Head to the show notes to find if this episode is CPD eligible and details on how to claim your CPD certification!
Sponsored by Dr. Gregg Hassler Jr., DMD
Trusted dental care for healthy smiles and stronger communities—building brighter futures daily.
If you have a story about what's working in your schools that you'd like to share, email me at lisa@drlisahassler.com or visit www.drlisahassler.com. Subscribe, tell a friend, and consider becoming a supporter by clicking the link: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2048018/support.
The music in this podcast was written and performed by Brandon Picciolini of the Lonesome Family Band. Visit and follow him on Instagram.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (00:09):
Welcome to The Brighter Side of Education:
Research, Innovation andResources.
I'm your host, Dr.
Lisa Hassler, here to enlightenand brighten the classrooms in
America through focusedconversation on important topics
in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
(00:29):
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
student outcomes?
In this episode, we join theexciting world of mathematics
and explore innovativeapproaches to making it both
accessible and enjoyable.
Mathematics plays a crucial rolein developing critical thinking
and problem-solving skills,essential competencies for
(00:49):
navigating the complexities ofthe modern world.
Mathematics is not merely aboutnumbers and equations.
It's a tool for fostering amindset capable of addressing
and innovating solutions toreal-world challenges.
However, recent dataunderscores the urgency of
addressing the declining mathperformance among US students.
According to the NationalAssessment of Educational
(01:12):
Progress, naep 2022 saw thesteepest declines in math scores
since the assessment began in1990.
For instance, 38% of 8thgraders performed below the
basic level.
Similarly, the Program forInternational Student Assessment
, pisa, revealed that USstudents' math scores dropped to
their lowest levels in history,equating to nearly two-thirds
(01:32):
of a year of lost learning.
This decline is troubling notonly because it indicates gaps
in mathematical literacy, butalso because math skills are
closely linked to broaderacademic and economic success.
Finding ways to make mathaccessible and enjoyable is key
to preparing our students forthe future.
Joining us today is CindyLawrence, the Executive Director
(01:53):
and CEO of the National Museumof Mathematics, also known as
MoMath.
Cindy's journey into leadingMoMath is as dynamic as the
exhibits she oversees.
She began her career as a CPAthat transitioned into education
Under her leadership.
MoMath is as dynamic as theexhibits she oversees.
She began her career as a CPAthat transitioned into education
.
Under her leadership, MoMathhas become a beacon of
interactive math education,attracting over a million
visitors and influencingaudiences around the world.
(02:16):
She strives to change publicperceptions of mathematics and
to improve and diversifymathematics education.
Cindy, it's a pleasure to haveyou with us today.
Cindy Lawrence (02:25):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (02:28):
So your career journey from accounting to
leading the National Museum ofMathematics is fascinating.
Can you share how your passionfor math developed over the
years and how it led you to openthe only museum in the United
States dedicated solely tomathematics?
Cindy Lawrence (02:47):
United States dedicated solely to mathematics.
Sure, I will start by saying mypassion for math wasn't with me
for my entire life.
I remember in second grade veryclearly coming back to school
after summer vacation and beinggiven an assessment and
realizing that I had forgottenhow to subtract when you had to
borrow.
It was something we had learned, I think, at the end of the
previous year, and what reallysticks with me is how frustrated
(03:09):
I felt, how unhappy, how Ithought I wasn't capable in
mathematics and none of thatturned out to be the case.
I had simply forgottensomething I had been taught
several months prior andeventually I came back to
mathematics.
I was good in math, I did enjoymath, but that experience stays
(03:30):
with me and I think about thata lot when I think about talking
about how we interact withchildren around math and how
sometimes there are preconceivednotions.
I know we'll get to that inanother question, but, like many
people, where I reallydeveloped a love and even
further love of math was due toa teacher, and a wonderful
(03:51):
calculus teacher when I was inhigh school who clearly loved
math himself, and thatenthusiasm was contagious, and
this is a story we hear a lotfrom people who do go into
mathematics that there was thatkey person in their life often a
teacher who made a differenceto them and showed them
something beautiful, surprising,amazing, interesting, engaging
(04:14):
about mathematics that set themon a path.
So education is definitely akey, and having educators in the
classrooms who themselves arepassionate about mathematics.
There is no substitute for that, and I think I'm a good example
of that myself.
But my journey from starting asa CPA and ending up working for
(04:35):
a not-for-profit museum what wasthe only museum of math in the
country at the time that weopened is really one of chance
than anything.
I was very happily working as aCPA.
I was in fact teaching anonline review program, helping
other people become CPAs, at thesame time as I was raising a
(04:57):
family, and so I was workingremotely and working online.
Before that was something thateveryone was doing, you know, 25
, 30 years ago, and I happenedto volunteer to help a friend
who was trying to open a smallmath museum and the first thing
he was going to do was bringsome math exhibits to a festival
(05:19):
in New York City, and I raisedmy hand and volunteered for what
I thought was a one-day event.
I had liked math and thought itwould be fun to work on this
project, but I literally thoughtI was volunteering just to help
with one day.
I would come in that day andsit at a table or talk to people
.
It turned out what I actuallywas volunteering for was
(05:40):
actually organizing what wewould bring to that festival.
And that didn't deter me either, because in my mind we were
going to bring flyers and maybewe would have some giveaways
like pencils or calculators.
I wasn't yet involved in thebreadth and depth of mathematics
to see it as more than that,and it turned out what I had
(06:01):
volunteered for was to hire anexhibit design firm and work
with them and withmathematicians and build
interactive, engaging, hands-on,life-size exhibits about
mathematics which had nothing todo with pencils or calculators,
and I was sort of fan one.
I fell in love with the projectas we were developing these
(06:22):
exhibits.
I was in awe of what we weredoing and what I was learning,
and so I just kind of fell intoit and ultimately quit the job
that I'd had for 18 years andthrew myself 100% into opening
the nation's only museum ofmathematics.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:42):
Many people believe that math is only for
geniuses, that it's dry, roteand has no real world
application.
There's also a perception thatmath is just about numbers, that
you're either born good at itor not, and that boys are
naturally better at math thangirls.
How do you think theseperceptions develop, and how is
MoMath working to challenge andchange these societal views?
Cindy Lawrence (07:03):
Wow.
So you've mentioned a lot ofthings there and I hope I don't
miss responding to any of thosethings, because they're all
important.
So, first of all, the thoughtthat math is only for geniuses
is not true.
Like anything else, people aredifferent.
Some people are naturallybetter at a particular skill
(07:25):
than other people.
For example, somebody mighthave a talent athletically, and
so they might be very good atshooting hoops in basketball and
they manage to get the ball onthe hoop.
(07:45):
All know that if you practice,you will get better, and you can
play and earn a spot on theschool basketball team simply by
practicing and working at it.
So it doesn't matter that maybethe kid down the block was
better on day one.
You might actually end upbecoming as good or even better.
So math is no different fromthat.
And maybe there's somebody whosees something more quickly than
another person does.
(08:05):
That doesn't mean the otherperson can't be trained to see
things quickly also.
So I think we confuse the ideathat people are starting at
different places with the ideathat they're going to end up in
different places, and that'sjust not true.
You may be musically talentedand your friend is not, but if
(08:27):
they take lessons and practice,they may become a concert
pianist, whereas you never getfurther than tapping out a tune
on the piano, even though youstarted out perhaps having more
what we might call talent.
And so we need to get away fromthe idea that there's something
innate to each person thatmakes them good or bad in math,
(08:47):
and I have my own example ofthat, which is I do have three
children.
All of them today aresuccessful and accomplished in
math related fields, and youwould never know that as
children they were verydifferent in their abilities
toward mathematics.
One of them was very obviouslyvery strong in mathematics from
(09:12):
an early age.
One of them was good inmathematics, but not necessarily
remarkably so, and one of themstruggled to learn how to add
single digit numbers.
I would defy you to look at mythree children, who are all in
math-related fields today, andidentify which one was good in
math, which one was better inmath and which one was terrible
(09:35):
in math at the earliest age, andI'm talking kindergarten, first
grade, because by the time theywere later in elementary school
, you already couldn't tell themapart.
But if a teacher had said thisone's good in math, this one's
great in math, this one's notgood in math and grouped them
accordingly and not given themthe enrichment and the
challenges and the fun side ofmathematics that got them
(09:57):
engaged, they would have gonethrough life thinking they are
not good in math.
Similarly, in my second gradeexperience, a teacher might have
said this is a kid who's notgood in math.
Similarly, in my second gradeexperience, a teacher might have
said this is a kid who's notgood in math.
I turned out to be very good inmath.
So I just think not everybodystarts in the same place and we
need to recognize that.
So sometimes you hear peoplesay everybody's equal and I
(10:17):
think that falls a little flat.
If you've had multiple studentsin your classroom, if you're an
educator, if you're a parentwith multiple children, you
realize that nobody is exactlyequal.
Really, in any ability.
Everybody is coming from adifferent place.
Some people learn differentlythan others.
Maybe you're a visual learneror an auditory learner, or you
(10:38):
learn more with tactilemanipulatives.
But I think everybody can domath.
Everybody can be as good asthey want to be in math.
It just is a matter of whetherthey want to devote the time and
effort to working on it andbecoming better at it, like it's
like any other skill.
Whether boys are better at maththan girls is something I don't
(11:00):
believe.
I have two daughters and a son.
My personal experience saysthat's not true.
But, more interestingly, I'veinteracted with a lot of
mathematicians from EasternEurope and the stereotype is
opposite in Eastern Europe.
In Eastern Europe, girls areviewed as being better in math,
(11:20):
or at least in some EasternEuropean countries.
Girls are viewed as beingnaturally better at math than
boys, and to me that's verytelling.
Right there.
It's cultural.
For some reason, in our culturewe have seen men and boys as
(11:41):
STEM professionals or in STEMfields, and less so in the
culture to see women in thosefields, and that's something
that many people have beenworking to change and it's been
a slow change.
MoMath is also working tochange that, and you asked what
we were doing to address thoseperceptions and those problems,
and we are now.
We just completed our secondyear and we'll be going into a
third year of a program in whichwe bring early career female
(12:03):
mathematicians.
So these are young women whoeither recently became PhDs or
are on their way to becomingPhDs and they come to us to
learn how to interact with thegeneral public and give an
engaging general audience talkon their area of mathematical
expertise, which is not an easything to do and the idea is that
(12:24):
these women then agree to goback to their home communities
and deliver this outreach talkto middle schools, to
undergraduate math clubs, tolibraries, anywhere they can.
And the idea is that if we canget more younger women, women in
middle school and high schoolseeing role models, seeing women
who are mathematicians, thatwill start to move the needle.
(12:47):
Because when you don't see it,you develop a perception, it
sort of self-perpetuates.
If all of your math teacherswere always men, all of your
math professors in college werealways men, then that creates
sort of a background assumption,even without thinking about it,
that yeah, more men go intomath than women.
So we're trying to move theneedle a little bit by actively
(13:10):
training young women in math sothey can go out and show the
world that women actually domath and do a great job at it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:18):
So why is it important, then, to address the
myths, for both children andadults, particularly in
fostering a growth mindset?
Cindy Lawrence (13:27):
Well, if you don't see it, you don't think
you can be it.
So if you're a young woman wholikes math and I've heard the
story from many, many women thatthey love math but they didn't
see themselves in it they neversaw a number of female role
models in mathematics, and sothey used their math skills and
went into something else.
Maybe they went intoengineering or science or you
(13:49):
know, oftentimes somethingrelated, but not always.
Some of them go into completelydifferent fields, but many
people who are good in mathdidn't see a role model and
didn't see a path forward orsometimes were actively
discouraged by people in theirlives, and so we're losing half
of the potential as a society.
(14:09):
When you think about the rolethat mathematicians often play
in solving the world's problemswhether those are technology
problems or efficiency problemsor problems of making the world
a better place math is veryoften under the hood, and if we
lose half of our goodmathematician population so if
(14:31):
you figure a certain number ofpeople are skilled in math and
want to learn more and could goforward and have the potential
to become mathematicians andhalf of them don't because they
don't perceive that it'ssomething that their gender or
their ethnicity does, then welose half the potential for the
country, and so we want to makesure that everyone has the same
(14:54):
potential, not just for theindividuals, but for the good of
a productive society.
I've also spoken with manypeople who work for companies,
industries, national defense,and they can't find enough
mathematicians to hire, sothere's a real scarcity, and
trying to fill the pipeline is abig part of why we exist.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:15):
Absolutely.
Engagement is often cited as akey factor in learning,
particularly in subjects likemath, where student interest can
wane.
How does MoMath ensure that itsexhibits and programs not only
capture attention, but alsosustain it in a way that deepens
mathematical understanding?
Cindy Lawrence (15:34):
So we spend a lot of time developing exhibits
that are engaging, and that'salways our first question before
anything else Is it engaging?
Will people enjoy it?
Will they come over and playwith it?
Of course, the question thatfollows very closely thereafter
is is there real math under thehood?
Might not be real math.
(15:54):
That's really why we exist, andI like to compare it to music.
In this way If you take yourchild to hear the symphony and
they hear a beautiful violinsolo and they leave that
performance and they say I wantto play the violin, okay, you
might go out and rent a violinfor your child and get lessons
(16:14):
for them.
And they sound terrible in thebeginning.
And they have to learn how tohold the violin, how to hold the
.
And they have to learn how tohold the violin, how to hold the
bow.
They have to learn how to readmusic, which is notation that
nobody is born knowing, becauseit's a made up notation, but one
that we all agree, when we putcircles on five lines, what that
means in terms of what noteshould be playing.
And they have to practice theirscales, which is not the
(16:36):
symphony they heard.
It's just up and down and upand down.
But they're learning to readmusic and they're learning the
mechanics of how to hold theirinstrument, and the reason they
do all of that is because theyheard that solo in that symphony
performance.
In math we also have topractice addition and
multiplication facts.
We have to learn the mechanics.
(16:56):
But if we never let a childhear the symphony of mathematics
, there's no motivation for allthe hard work that has to go
into becoming proficient.
So LOMATH exists with itshopefully very engaging exhibits
to be that symphony.
A great example is probably ourmost well-known and most
popular exhibit.
It is a tricycle with squarewheels and you can ride that
(17:19):
tricycle because we have figuredout what shape the floor needs
to be to mate perfectly with arolling square.
And people come in and they'redelighted and it's unexpected
and everybody wants to take apicture and post it on social
media that they're riding abicycle with square wheels.
But there's real math under thehood.
(17:40):
How did the shape of that trackget determined?
You actually need calculus toanswer that question.
And so, yes, it's engaging,it's fun.
We hope it pulls people in.
It's sort of the symphony thatthen makes someone go back to
school and say I want tounderstand how they did that.
And what if it was a differentshape wheel?
Could it work with a triangularwheel?
(18:00):
Could it work with a hexagonalwheel?
And so they hear the symphonyat MoMath, and that's what
hopefully incentivizes them towant to learn more and do the
work and do the mechanics andtake the time to learn the math
that will allow them to maybecreate their own symphony, maybe
create something beautiful andwonderful of their own.
(18:21):
Now the challenge is how do youconvey all of that when
someone's riding a square wheeltricycle?
And the answer is sort oftwofold.
On one hand, we're not tryingto convey calculus to every
visitor who walks in the door,but what we are trying to convey
is that math can make somethingthat seems impossible possible.
Math can be something you playwith, have fun with, enjoy, and
(18:45):
so when people come to a placewith math in the very name of
the place MoMath and they havefun, that's changing a
perception of mathematics rightthere In terms of going into the
deeper math.
Math is, at its heart, a veryhuman endeavor, and the best way
to convey what's going on is byhuman to human interaction, and
(19:06):
so we have a wonderful staffwhich ranges from high school
volunteers to recent collegegraduates, to adult
mathematicians, and our staffinteract with the visitors
around the exhibits, and I thinkthat's a really important part
of engagement and really lettingpeople see where is the math
under the hood.
Yes, it's fun to ride thesquare wheel tricycle, but how
(19:29):
do I connect that to math?
And so it's really a verycommunity-oriented endeavor.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:37):
So why is it important for learners to see
how math applies in everydaylife, and can you share some
examples of real-worldapplications that are featured
in MoMath's exhibits andprograms?
Cindy Lawrence (19:48):
So I think too many times we view math as
something that happens in aclassroom, that doesn't have any
relevancy outside the classroom, when in fact so much of what
goes on in the world around usis driven by mathematics.
Our cell phones are driven bymathematics.
The way the traffic lightshopefully coordinate so that you
(20:09):
can drive smoothly through acity is mathematics.
The way airplanes are routed,the way deliveries are routed,
all of this has mathematicsunder the hood.
In terms of an example of anexhibit at MoMath that has a
real-world application, we havea very popular exhibit called
(20:29):
MotionScape and what we do is weput you your entire body, you
are in a video game and you lookat a screen and there's sort of
a target that you need to staywithin these two little gates
and you have to move your bodybackwards and forwards on a
track to stay within these twogates, which are moving as they
come across the screen.
(20:50):
And what we're doing, as you'rerunning backwards and forwards
on this track, playing thisvideo game, is we're tracking
your position, your velocity andyour acceleration.
That's calculus, and visitorsare watching the change.
So when you're, when you'restanding still, of course,
everything's zero, but whenyou're moving forward, your
position might be changing, butmaybe your speed is constant, or
(21:13):
maybe you're accelerating, soyour speed is changing.
So we're using that calculusexhibit and the real-world
application of that is when youdrive a car.
If you don't have anunderstanding of the
relationship between position,velocity and acceleration, you
may drive too close to the carin front of you.
You may end up not being ableto hit the brakes quickly enough
(21:35):
if the car in front of youstops short.
So that's just one example, butmath really is all around us.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:43):
Absolutely.
I love how you are calling forproposals for mathematical
artists.
I think you're doing some sortof weaving or something.
Was there a weaving that wasthere's?
Cindy Lawrence (21:53):
a topological crochet class, which has been so
popular it fills with a waitinglist the minute we open
registration.
Wow, we have exhibits in themuseum that allow you to paint
with mathematical symmetries, tosculpt with geometric shapes.
There is a temporary exhibitionon right now that is a
collaboration of mathematiciansand artists and artists.
(22:14):
We've also had programs thattalk about math and many other
things math and music, math anddance, math and birds, you name
it.
There's math under the hood.
But I do think for some peoplewho view themselves as being
more creative, more art oriented, let's say, when they come into
(22:34):
the Museum of Mathematics theydon't expect to see anything
that they will connect with andvery often they gravitate toward
those exhibits that highlightthose connections and they come
away with a newfoundappreciation of mathematics and
how it does connect with art orwith music or with movement.
And the more connections we canmake, the more we can change
(22:57):
perceptions and improveperceptions, so that people
don't just think about thebasics that they learned in the
classroom, which are importantto learn, but that's not all
there is to math.
That's like saying learning howto read music on a staff is all
there is to music.
No, it's about the creation,the beauty, the human experience
we have.
Sharing music with each other,listening together that's what
(23:20):
we're trying to create at MoMath.
So people leave and realizethat math is actually an
aesthetic pursuit.
It's a pursuit you can do withothers, share with others and
find joy together.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (23:32):
You also collaborate with schools.
You offer field trips andteacher training.
In what ways do you thinkMoMath's approach to math
education can influence broadereducational practices?
Cindy Lawrence (23:43):
Typically manipulatives and physicality in
the classrooms.
For math classrooms goes awayaround second grade and the joy
of math sometimes goes awayalong with those physical
manipulatives.
To mathematicians math is akinto a puzzle and if you think
about how we all feel when thereare a thousand pieces to a
(24:07):
puzzle sitting in front of us,it can be daunting, it can be
overwhelming.
You can say how will I ever dothis?
But then you look and you seetwo pieces that connect and so
you just put those two together.
Now you look a little more andyou see another piece, or
another couple pieces.
Now you've got the endstogether and you're trying to do
the middle.
And when you get to the pointwhere you put that last piece in
(24:28):
the puzzle, there's this veryhuman sense of satisfaction and
exhilaration and joy.
I did it, I did it, andmathematicians will tell you
that's the same kind of feelingthat they have.
So in the classrooms we'retalking about mechanics often
and if we can bring a little bitof joy into the classroom and
(24:49):
it's hard because there are somany requirements on teachers,
there are assessments thatstudents need to pass but if we
can bring some of that mathenrichment whether it's a math
enrichment club, or it's once amonth on a Friday we're going to
do something fun with math, orwhether a teacher can actually
incorporate something fun aboutmath into their everyday lesson.
(25:11):
It's about bringing joy intothe classroom.
I should mention that we run aprize, a $25,000 prize program.
We give a prize every year to ateacher who has a really
engaging math lesson for amiddle school classroom that is
both tied to the curriculum, sosomething that they need to
cover anyway, but joyful andthat kids will enjoy doing, and
(25:35):
so that's called the RosenthalPrize, and anybody can look that
up online and see all the priorlessons and hopefully teachers
who maybe don't have ideas abouthow to bring joy into the
classroom might find some ideasfrom that website or others.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (25:49):
That is so exciting.
With all of the differentthings that you're doing, like
with the teacher training.
What impact have you seen withbeing able to do that
collaboration, the educationfield.
Cindy Lawrence (26:00):
So most of our experience here comes from
feedback from teachers who bringtheir students to Lomath for a
field trip, or sometimes webring our exhibits to a school,
and we consistently get feedbackfrom teachers who say that the
kids had a really wonderfulexperience, but also one that
stays with them.
(26:21):
At one point we had aprofessional evaluation firm
come in and evaluate some of ourtraveling exhibits that we
brought to a one-day sciencefestival, and they not only
interviewed parents and familieswhile they were there, but they
got phone numbers and theycalled two three weeks later and
they found it remarkable thatthe families were still talking
(26:43):
about the math that they hadlearned from an interaction
walking through a festival andspending, you know, 15 minutes
with an exhibit, and so that'swhat we hear from teachers too
that the kids are still talkingabout what they learned days
later, and we hope that thatengagement encourages and
inspires students.
(27:03):
We've now been open for morethan 12 years and something that
I had long hoped to happen hasactually happened.
I had hoped that there would beyoung adults and hopefully
eventually older adults out inthe world who would be talking
about their career and wouldpoint to MoMath as a place that
inspired them and we've hadmultiple examples now of young
(27:27):
people that are in the topuniversities in our country or
going to even graduate school atthe top universities who grew
up at MoMath, and it gives mesuch pleasure to hear those
stories and see those youngpeople and to feel like we made
a little bit of a difference insomebody's life.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (27:45):
Absolutely Engaging with math outside of
the classroom develops a deeperappreciation for the subject, I
think.
So what are some ways thatparents can engage their
children with math at home?
Cindy Lawrence (27:57):
So I think it's all about viewing math as
something you play with.
Yeah, you can take outflashcards and drill your
children on addition facts ormultiplication facts, and maybe
that's even important to do, butit's not fun.
So what is fun?
What is fun is looking aroundand seeing where math is in the
world around us.
So everywhere you go, you'llsee tilings, you'll see
(28:19):
tessellations.
This is even in your bathroomor your kitchen.
There are tiles.
How do they fit together?
How many different shapes arethere?
Could it go on forever.
Are there gaps?
Are there overlaps?
Everywhere you look, you'll seesymmetry.
Why does a building look thesame on this side and that side?
Or maybe it doesn't?
And how does that feel to us?
How do we perceive the beautyor the lack thereof?
Perceive the beauty or the lackthereof?
(28:41):
Geometry, shapes how do we putthings together?
How do you know if you go onvacation and you have a suitcase
and you're trying to fiteverything into your suitcase?
Or now you have multiple familysuitcases but they all have to
fit into the trunk of your car?
That's math too.
So kind of pointing out wherethe math is around us and
playing with it.
(29:01):
You know puzzles that we do.
There's very much math inherentin the Rubik's cube, for example
, is highly mathematical.
There's something called grouptheory.
That's an advanced area ofstudy in mathematics, but if
you're learning how to solve aRubik's cube, you're doing group
theory, you're using it and sokind of looking at the world
(29:21):
around us and pointing out.
Even you know, even on aweekend, at home, we're going to
run some errands.
And in which order should werun those errands?
Should we go to the post officeand then the grocery store and
then the bank, or in some otherorder?
And what's the most efficientway to get to three places and
come back home?
There's math in that too, evenin terms of what route you're
(29:42):
going to take.
This road is longer, but I cango faster home.
There's math in that too, evenin terms of what route you're
going to take.
Well, on this, this road islonger but I can go faster.
This road is shorter, but Ihave to drive more slowly, which
is going to get me there faster?
Or dating.
This is a recipe for four, butwe're having eight people for
dinner tonight.
How do we change the recipe?
So, just trying to pull outsome of the math and really
(30:05):
model, being joyful around it.
Of course, coming to MoMathenjoying our exhibits or even
for those who are not in thearea, enjoying our online
programs, is another way.
If a parent struggles to seethe joy of math or the math
around them themselves, there'sa wealth of programs they can
come to with their children ofall ages and hopefully
(30:27):
experience a little bit of thejoy of math.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (30:30):
Some of your programs that you offer that are
online are like the monthlymath gym, and then there's the
folding Fridays origami that youhave and a weekly loving math
for K-3 students online.
I think that's where you'rereading stories and doing games.
Cindy Lawrence (30:48):
It's all fun.
It's all hopefully designed tohave kids laughing, enjoying,
creating, seeing math in adifferent way than what they see
in the classroom.
That's really the point of it,because you know what Kids will
focus on something that they areengaged in.
So if you enjoy doing something, then you're more interested in
(31:10):
learning about how it works andwhat's behind it, whereas if
you don't enjoy doing something,you know you do what you have
to do and you walk away.
So we're all about finding theenjoyment and the fun and the
playful side of mathematics.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (31:23):
Absolutely.
You also have the Ask aMathematician online and then
tutoring.
Cindy Lawrence (31:29):
We try to reach people wherever they are and try
to provide what people need.
The Ask a Mathematician is aparticularly lovely program
because it's really kind of noholds barred.
We get adults asking mathquestions.
Maybe they read something inthe news that didn't make sense
for them.
We have parents who sometimescome with homework questions
(31:51):
that they're trying to helptheir children with, but they
themselves don't know the answer, so they're looking for help
from us.
And then we have kids that comeand they just have interesting
questions like about infinity orabout zero or about how you
become a mathematician or whatdo you do all day as a
mathematician.
And I love those programsbecause they are so open-ended
(32:11):
and it's a dialogue andeverybody participates, and that
is one thing I think that thepandemic left us with.
That is a plus that everybodyis comfortable joining a program
online and and interacting witheach other, and we'll have
people of all ages from all overthe world interacting in a room
together and there's somethingvery joyful about that.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (32:33):
So, as we look toward the future and shaping
the next generation of mathlearners, what advice would you
give to educators and parents?
Cindy Lawrence (32:42):
I think the advice I would most want to give
to educators and parents is toplease get away from this idea
that we can identify someone whowill be good in math and who
will not be good in math, andI'd like to leave you with two
examples that go beyond my ownfamily.
The first one is StevenStrogatz, who is one of the most
prominent mathematicians in ourcountry and he's excellent at
(33:05):
interacting with a generalpublic, and he will say he was
never the fastest one in hismath class.
He was the one who struggledand had to think deeply, but yet
he did, and he has becomeincredibly successful in the
world of mathematics.
So this idea that the kids whoare really fast must be better
(33:27):
at it and everybody else is notgood at it.
We need to dispel that notion,not just in the classroom but
even with parents at home,because how a parent interacts
with their child around math isreally going to set a lot of how
the child views themselves inmathematics.
The other example that I liketo share is about Eileen Collins
.
Eileen Collins is an astronautand she was the first female
(33:51):
commander of a space shuttlemission in our space shuttle
program here in the UnitedStates and she gave a talk that
I happened to see and what shetalked about was the fact that
she was not good in math allthroughout high school and
calculus was something that shedid not master I can't remember
if she didn't master it ordidn't even try and take it in
(34:11):
high school and she was veryhappy when she graduated from
high school that she would neverhave to encounter mathematics
again and she wanted to be apilot and then an astronaut.
And she wanted to be a pilotand then an astronaut.
And when she got to college,much to her dismay, she found
that she needed to mastercalculus or she was not going to
become a pilot or an astronaut.
And because she so strongly hadan ambition in terms of her
(34:35):
career, she said she just made adecision that she was going to
do whatever it took to figureout this calculus topic and she
wasn't going to give up and shewasn't going to walk away.
And indeed she did master itand she did become a pilot and
she did become an astronaut, anda very successful astronaut.
And this is high school.
(34:55):
This is somebody who perceivedherself and probably her
teachers and her parents mayhave perceived her the same way
as not being strong in maththroughout high school.
And if she could become good inmath at that late stage of her
educational life, so caneverybody else.
And so we should not look atthe child in kindergarten who
(35:18):
has trouble understandingnumbers or counting or
comparisons or addition orsubtraction and write them off
as not going to be good math.
It's just too soon to tell, andmaybe the light bulb hasn't
gone on yet.
Maybe they need an approachthat's different from the one
that we've been trying.
Maybe it just takes a littlebit more time, but everybody can
(35:41):
master mathematics if they wantto and if they have an
incentive to.
So we try to be part of thatincentive, and I would encourage
parents and educators to havethat mindset of the fact that
everybody can be good andeverybody can enjoy math.
We just have to find the rightpath in.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (35:58):
And MoMath sounds like it's definitely one
of those amazing paths in.
So thank you so much forjoining us today and for sharing
the incredible work you'redoing at MoMath.
Your passion for making mathaccessible and fun is truly
inspiring.
Cindy Lawrence (36:12):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure chattingwith you and I hope people will
go to MoMath.
org and see all of the programswe have Will come to visit us.
We're right now on Fifth Avenuein the center of Manhattan and
we'd love to see everybody inperson or online and share our
brand of mathematics witheveryone.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (36:36):
Changing math mindset starts with us.
Include more hands-on,real-world math activities into
your life.
Visit MoMath or explore theirfree online resources to see how
fun and engaging math can be.
Let's work together to build ageneration of confident, curious
learners who see math as asource of joy.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
(36:57):
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at lisa@
drlisahrhassler.
com, or visit my website at www.
drlisahassler.
com and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
(37:19):
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
Welcome to The Brighter Side of Education:
Research, Innovation andResources.
I'm your host, Dr.
Lisa Hassler, here to enlightenand brighten the classrooms in
America through focusedconversation on important topics
in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
(00:29):
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
student outcomes?
In this episode, we join theexciting world of mathematics
and explore innovativeapproaches to making it both
accessible and enjoyable.
Mathematics plays a crucial rolein developing critical thinking
and problem-solving skills,essential competencies for
(00:49):
navigating the complexities ofthe modern world.
Mathematics is not merely aboutnumbers and equations.
It's a tool for fostering amindset capable of addressing
and innovating solutions toreal-world challenges.
However, recent dataunderscores the urgency of
addressing the declining mathperformance among US students.
According to the NationalAssessment of Educational
(01:12):
Progress, naep 2022 saw thesteepest declines in math scores
since the assessment began in1990.
For instance, 38% of 8thgraders performed below the
basic level.
Similarly, the Program forInternational Student Assessment
, pisa, revealed that USstudents' math scores dropped to
their lowest levels in history,equating to nearly two-thirds
(01:32):
of a year of lost learning.
This decline is troubling notonly because it indicates gaps
in mathematical literacy, butalso because math skills are
closely linked to broaderacademic and economic success.
Finding ways to make mathaccessible and enjoyable is key
to preparing our students forthe future.
Joining us today is CindyLawrence, the Executive Director
(01:53):
and CEO of the National Museumof Mathematics, also known as
MoMath.
Cindy's journey into leadingMoMath is as dynamic as the
exhibits she oversees.
She began her career as a CPAthat transitioned into education
Under her leadership.
MoMath is as dynamic as theexhibits she oversees.
She began her career as a CPAthat transitioned into education
.
Under her leadership, MoMathhas become a beacon of
interactive math education,attracting over a million
visitors and influencingaudiences around the world.
(02:16):
She strives to change publicperceptions of mathematics and
to improve and diversifymathematics education.
Cindy, it's a pleasure to haveyou with us today.
Cindy Lawrence (02:25):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (02:28):
So your career journey from accounting to
leading the National Museum ofMathematics is fascinating.
Can you share how your passionfor math developed over the
years and how it led you to openthe only museum in the United
States dedicated solely tomathematics?
Cindy Lawrence (02:47):
United States dedicated solely to mathematics.
Sure, I will start by saying mypassion for math wasn't with me
for my entire life.
I remember in second grade veryclearly coming back to school
after summer vacation and beinggiven an assessment and
realizing that I had forgottenhow to subtract when you had to
borrow.
It was something we had learned, I think, at the end of the
previous year, and what reallysticks with me is how frustrated
(03:09):
I felt, how unhappy, how Ithought I wasn't capable in
mathematics and none of thatturned out to be the case.
I had simply forgottensomething I had been taught
several months prior andeventually I came back to
mathematics.
I was good in math, I did enjoymath, but that experience stays
(03:30):
with me and I think about thata lot when I think about talking
about how we interact withchildren around math and how
sometimes there are preconceivednotions.
I know we'll get to that inanother question, but, like many
people, where I reallydeveloped a love and even
further love of math was due toa teacher, and a wonderful
(03:51):
calculus teacher when I was inhigh school who clearly loved
math himself, and thatenthusiasm was contagious, and
this is a story we hear a lotfrom people who do go into
mathematics that there was thatkey person in their life often a
teacher who made a differenceto them and showed them
something beautiful, surprising,amazing, interesting, engaging
(04:14):
about mathematics that set themon a path.
So education is definitely akey, and having educators in the
classrooms who themselves arepassionate about mathematics.
There is no substitute for that, and I think I'm a good example
of that myself.
But my journey from starting asa CPA and ending up working for
(04:35):
a not-for-profit museum what wasthe only museum of math in the
country at the time that weopened is really one of chance
than anything.
I was very happily working as aCPA.
I was in fact teaching anonline review program, helping
other people become CPAs, at thesame time as I was raising a
(04:57):
family, and so I was workingremotely and working online.
Before that was something thateveryone was doing, you know, 25
, 30 years ago, and I happenedto volunteer to help a friend
who was trying to open a smallmath museum and the first thing
he was going to do was bringsome math exhibits to a festival
(05:19):
in New York City, and I raisedmy hand and volunteered for what
I thought was a one-day event.
I had liked math and thought itwould be fun to work on this
project, but I literally thoughtI was volunteering just to help
with one day.
I would come in that day andsit at a table or talk to people
.
It turned out what I actuallywas volunteering for was
(05:40):
actually organizing what wewould bring to that festival.
And that didn't deter me either, because in my mind we were
going to bring flyers and maybewe would have some giveaways
like pencils or calculators.
I wasn't yet involved in thebreadth and depth of mathematics
to see it as more than that,and it turned out what I had
(06:01):
volunteered for was to hire anexhibit design firm and work
with them and withmathematicians and build
interactive, engaging, hands-on,life-size exhibits about
mathematics which had nothing todo with pencils or calculators,
and I was sort of fan one.
I fell in love with the projectas we were developing these
(06:22):
exhibits.
I was in awe of what we weredoing and what I was learning,
and so I just kind of fell intoit and ultimately quit the job
that I'd had for 18 years andthrew myself 100% into opening
the nation's only museum ofmathematics.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:42):
Many people believe that math is only for
geniuses, that it's dry, roteand has no real world
application.
There's also a perception thatmath is just about numbers, that
you're either born good at itor not, and that boys are
naturally better at math thangirls.
How do you think theseperceptions develop, and how is
MoMath working to challenge andchange these societal views?
Cindy Lawrence (07:03):
Wow.
So you've mentioned a lot ofthings there and I hope I don't
miss responding to any of thosethings, because they're all
important.
So, first of all, the thoughtthat math is only for geniuses
is not true.
Like anything else, people aredifferent.
Some people are naturallybetter at a particular skill
(07:25):
than other people.
For example, somebody mighthave a talent athletically, and
so they might be very good atshooting hoops in basketball and
they manage to get the ball onthe hoop.
(07:45):
All know that if you practice,you will get better, and you can
play and earn a spot on theschool basketball team simply by
practicing and working at it.
So it doesn't matter that maybethe kid down the block was
better on day one.
You might actually end upbecoming as good or even better.
So math is no different fromthat.
And maybe there's somebody whosees something more quickly than
another person does.
(08:05):
That doesn't mean the otherperson can't be trained to see
things quickly also.
So I think we confuse the ideathat people are starting at
different places with the ideathat they're going to end up in
different places, and that'sjust not true.
You may be musically talentedand your friend is not, but if
(08:27):
they take lessons and practice,they may become a concert
pianist, whereas you never getfurther than tapping out a tune
on the piano, even though youstarted out perhaps having more
what we might call talent.
And so we need to get away fromthe idea that there's something
innate to each person thatmakes them good or bad in math,
(08:47):
and I have my own example ofthat, which is I do have three
children.
All of them today aresuccessful and accomplished in
math related fields, and youwould never know that as
children they were verydifferent in their abilities
toward mathematics.
One of them was very obviouslyvery strong in mathematics from
(09:12):
an early age.
One of them was good inmathematics, but not necessarily
remarkably so, and one of themstruggled to learn how to add
single digit numbers.
I would defy you to look at mythree children, who are all in
math-related fields today, andidentify which one was good in
math, which one was better inmath and which one was terrible
(09:35):
in math at the earliest age, andI'm talking kindergarten, first
grade, because by the time theywere later in elementary school
, you already couldn't tell themapart.
But if a teacher had said thisone's good in math, this one's
great in math, this one's notgood in math and grouped them
accordingly and not given themthe enrichment and the
challenges and the fun side ofmathematics that got them
(09:57):
engaged, they would have gonethrough life thinking they are
not good in math.
Similarly, in my second gradeexperience, a teacher might have
said this is a kid who's notgood in math.
Similarly, in my second gradeexperience, a teacher might have
said this is a kid who's notgood in math.
I turned out to be very good inmath.
So I just think not everybodystarts in the same place and we
need to recognize that.
So sometimes you hear peoplesay everybody's equal and I
(10:17):
think that falls a little flat.
If you've had multiple studentsin your classroom, if you're an
educator, if you're a parentwith multiple children, you
realize that nobody is exactlyequal.
Really, in any ability.
Everybody is coming from adifferent place.
Some people learn differentlythan others.
Maybe you're a visual learneror an auditory learner, or you
(10:38):
learn more with tactilemanipulatives.
But I think everybody can domath.
Everybody can be as good asthey want to be in math.
It just is a matter of whetherthey want to devote the time and
effort to working on it andbecoming better at it, like it's
like any other skill.
Whether boys are better at maththan girls is something I don't
(11:00):
believe.
I have two daughters and a son.
My personal experience saysthat's not true.
But, more interestingly, I'veinteracted with a lot of
mathematicians from EasternEurope and the stereotype is
opposite in Eastern Europe.
In Eastern Europe, girls areviewed as being better in math,
(11:20):
or at least in some EasternEuropean countries.
Girls are viewed as beingnaturally better at math than
boys, and to me that's verytelling.
Right there.
It's cultural.
For some reason, in our culturewe have seen men and boys as
(11:41):
STEM professionals or in STEMfields, and less so in the
culture to see women in thosefields, and that's something
that many people have beenworking to change and it's been
a slow change.
MoMath is also working tochange that, and you asked what
we were doing to address thoseperceptions and those problems,
and we are now.
We just completed our secondyear and we'll be going into a
third year of a program in whichwe bring early career female
(12:03):
mathematicians.
So these are young women whoeither recently became PhDs or
are on their way to becomingPhDs and they come to us to
learn how to interact with thegeneral public and give an
engaging general audience talkon their area of mathematical
expertise, which is not an easything to do and the idea is that
(12:24):
these women then agree to goback to their home communities
and deliver this outreach talkto middle schools, to
undergraduate math clubs, tolibraries, anywhere they can.
And the idea is that if we canget more younger women, women in
middle school and high schoolseeing role models, seeing women
who are mathematicians, thatwill start to move the needle.
(12:47):
Because when you don't see it,you develop a perception, it
sort of self-perpetuates.
If all of your math teacherswere always men, all of your
math professors in college werealways men, then that creates
sort of a background assumption,even without thinking about it,
that yeah, more men go intomath than women.
So we're trying to move theneedle a little bit by actively
(13:10):
training young women in math sothey can go out and show the
world that women actually domath and do a great job at it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:18):
So why is it important, then, to address the
myths, for both children andadults, particularly in
fostering a growth mindset?
Cindy Lawrence (13:27):
Well, if you don't see it, you don't think
you can be it.
So if you're a young woman wholikes math and I've heard the
story from many, many women thatthey love math but they didn't
see themselves in it they neversaw a number of female role
models in mathematics, and sothey used their math skills and
went into something else.
Maybe they went intoengineering or science or you
(13:49):
know, oftentimes somethingrelated, but not always.
Some of them go into completelydifferent fields, but many
people who are good in mathdidn't see a role model and
didn't see a path forward orsometimes were actively
discouraged by people in theirlives, and so we're losing half
of the potential as a society.
(14:09):
When you think about the rolethat mathematicians often play
in solving the world's problemswhether those are technology
problems or efficiency problemsor problems of making the world
a better place math is veryoften under the hood, and if we
lose half of our goodmathematician population so if
(14:31):
you figure a certain number ofpeople are skilled in math and
want to learn more and could goforward and have the potential
to become mathematicians andhalf of them don't because they
don't perceive that it'ssomething that their gender or
their ethnicity does, then welose half the potential for the
country, and so we want to makesure that everyone has the same
(14:54):
potential, not just for theindividuals, but for the good of
a productive society.
I've also spoken with manypeople who work for companies,
industries, national defense,and they can't find enough
mathematicians to hire, sothere's a real scarcity, and
trying to fill the pipeline is abig part of why we exist.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:15):
Absolutely.
Engagement is often cited as akey factor in learning,
particularly in subjects likemath, where student interest can
wane.
How does MoMath ensure that itsexhibits and programs not only
capture attention, but alsosustain it in a way that deepens
mathematical understanding?
Cindy Lawrence (15:34):
So we spend a lot of time developing exhibits
that are engaging, and that'salways our first question before
anything else Is it engaging?
Will people enjoy it?
Will they come over and playwith it?
Of course, the question thatfollows very closely thereafter
is is there real math under thehood?
Might not be real math.
(15:54):
That's really why we exist, andI like to compare it to music.
In this way If you take yourchild to hear the symphony and
they hear a beautiful violinsolo and they leave that
performance and they say I wantto play the violin, okay, you
might go out and rent a violinfor your child and get lessons
(16:14):
for them.
And they sound terrible in thebeginning.
And they have to learn how tohold the violin, how to hold the
.
And they have to learn how tohold the violin, how to hold the
bow.
They have to learn how to readmusic, which is notation that
nobody is born knowing, becauseit's a made up notation, but one
that we all agree, when we putcircles on five lines, what that
means in terms of what noteshould be playing.
And they have to practice theirscales, which is not the
(16:36):
symphony they heard.
It's just up and down and upand down.
But they're learning to readmusic and they're learning the
mechanics of how to hold theirinstrument, and the reason they
do all of that is because theyheard that solo in that symphony
performance.
In math we also have topractice addition and
multiplication facts.
We have to learn the mechanics.
(16:56):
But if we never let a childhear the symphony of mathematics
, there's no motivation for allthe hard work that has to go
into becoming proficient.
So LOMATH exists with itshopefully very engaging exhibits
to be that symphony.
A great example is probably ourmost well-known and most
popular exhibit.
It is a tricycle with squarewheels and you can ride that
(17:19):
tricycle because we have figuredout what shape the floor needs
to be to mate perfectly with arolling square.
And people come in and they'redelighted and it's unexpected
and everybody wants to take apicture and post it on social
media that they're riding abicycle with square wheels.
But there's real math under thehood.
(17:40):
How did the shape of that trackget determined?
You actually need calculus toanswer that question.
And so, yes, it's engaging,it's fun.
We hope it pulls people in.
It's sort of the symphony thatthen makes someone go back to
school and say I want tounderstand how they did that.
And what if it was a differentshape wheel?
Could it work with a triangularwheel?
(18:00):
Could it work with a hexagonalwheel?
And so they hear the symphonyat MoMath, and that's what
hopefully incentivizes them towant to learn more and do the
work and do the mechanics andtake the time to learn the math
that will allow them to maybecreate their own symphony, maybe
create something beautiful andwonderful of their own.
(18:21):
Now the challenge is how do youconvey all of that when
someone's riding a square wheeltricycle?
And the answer is sort oftwofold.
On one hand, we're not tryingto convey calculus to every
visitor who walks in the door,but what we are trying to convey
is that math can make somethingthat seems impossible possible.
Math can be something you playwith, have fun with, enjoy, and
(18:45):
so when people come to a placewith math in the very name of
the place MoMath and they havefun, that's changing a
perception of mathematics rightthere In terms of going into the
deeper math.
Math is, at its heart, a veryhuman endeavor, and the best way
to convey what's going on is byhuman to human interaction, and
(19:06):
so we have a wonderful staffwhich ranges from high school
volunteers to recent collegegraduates, to adult
mathematicians, and our staffinteract with the visitors
around the exhibits, and I thinkthat's a really important part
of engagement and really lettingpeople see where is the math
under the hood.
Yes, it's fun to ride thesquare wheel tricycle, but how
(19:29):
do I connect that to math?
And so it's really a verycommunity-oriented endeavor.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:37):
So why is it important for learners to see
how math applies in everydaylife, and can you share some
examples of real-worldapplications that are featured
in MoMath's exhibits andprograms?
Cindy Lawrence (19:48):
So I think too many times we view math as
something that happens in aclassroom, that doesn't have any
relevancy outside the classroom, when in fact so much of what
goes on in the world around usis driven by mathematics.
Our cell phones are driven bymathematics.
The way the traffic lightshopefully coordinate so that you
(20:09):
can drive smoothly through acity is mathematics.
The way airplanes are routed,the way deliveries are routed,
all of this has mathematicsunder the hood.
In terms of an example of anexhibit at MoMath that has a
real-world application, we havea very popular exhibit called
(20:29):
MotionScape and what we do is weput you your entire body, you
are in a video game and you lookat a screen and there's sort of
a target that you need to staywithin these two little gates
and you have to move your bodybackwards and forwards on a
track to stay within these twogates, which are moving as they
come across the screen.
(20:50):
And what we're doing, as you'rerunning backwards and forwards
on this track, playing thisvideo game, is we're tracking
your position, your velocity andyour acceleration.
That's calculus, and visitorsare watching the change.
So when you're, when you'restanding still, of course,
everything's zero, but whenyou're moving forward, your
position might be changing, butmaybe your speed is constant, or
(21:13):
maybe you're accelerating, soyour speed is changing.
So we're using that calculusexhibit and the real-world
application of that is when youdrive a car.
If you don't have anunderstanding of the
relationship between position,velocity and acceleration, you
may drive too close to the carin front of you.
You may end up not being ableto hit the brakes quickly enough
(21:35):
if the car in front of youstops short.
So that's just one example, butmath really is all around us.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:43):
Absolutely.
I love how you are calling forproposals for mathematical
artists.
I think you're doing some sortof weaving or something.
Was there a weaving that wasthere's?
Cindy Lawrence (21:53):
a topological crochet class, which has been so
popular it fills with a waitinglist the minute we open
registration.
Wow, we have exhibits in themuseum that allow you to paint
with mathematical symmetries, tosculpt with geometric shapes.
There is a temporary exhibitionon right now that is a
collaboration of mathematiciansand artists and artists.
(22:14):
We've also had programs thattalk about math and many other
things math and music, math anddance, math and birds, you name
it.
There's math under the hood.
But I do think for some peoplewho view themselves as being
more creative, more art oriented, let's say, when they come into
(22:34):
the Museum of Mathematics theydon't expect to see anything
that they will connect with andvery often they gravitate toward
those exhibits that highlightthose connections and they come
away with a newfoundappreciation of mathematics and
how it does connect with art orwith music or with movement.
And the more connections we canmake, the more we can change
(22:57):
perceptions and improveperceptions, so that people
don't just think about thebasics that they learned in the
classroom, which are importantto learn, but that's not all
there is to math.
That's like saying learning howto read music on a staff is all
there is to music.
No, it's about the creation,the beauty, the human experience
we have.
Sharing music with each other,listening together that's what
(23:20):
we're trying to create at MoMath.
So people leave and realizethat math is actually an
aesthetic pursuit.
It's a pursuit you can do withothers, share with others and
find joy together.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (23:32):
You also collaborate with schools.
You offer field trips andteacher training.
In what ways do you thinkMoMath's approach to math
education can influence broadereducational practices?
Cindy Lawrence (23:43):
Typically manipulatives and physicality in
the classrooms.
For math classrooms goes awayaround second grade and the joy
of math sometimes goes awayalong with those physical
manipulatives.
To mathematicians math is akinto a puzzle and if you think
about how we all feel when thereare a thousand pieces to a
(24:07):
puzzle sitting in front of us,it can be daunting, it can be
overwhelming.
You can say how will I ever dothis?
But then you look and you seetwo pieces that connect and so
you just put those two together.
Now you look a little more andyou see another piece, or
another couple pieces.
Now you've got the endstogether and you're trying to do
the middle.
And when you get to the pointwhere you put that last piece in
(24:28):
the puzzle, there's this veryhuman sense of satisfaction and
exhilaration and joy.
I did it, I did it, andmathematicians will tell you
that's the same kind of feelingthat they have.
So in the classrooms we'retalking about mechanics often
and if we can bring a little bitof joy into the classroom and
(24:49):
it's hard because there are somany requirements on teachers,
there are assessments thatstudents need to pass but if we
can bring some of that mathenrichment whether it's a math
enrichment club, or it's once amonth on a Friday we're going to
do something fun with math, orwhether a teacher can actually
incorporate something fun aboutmath into their everyday lesson.
(25:11):
It's about bringing joy intothe classroom.
I should mention that we run aprize, a $25,000 prize program.
We give a prize every year to ateacher who has a really
engaging math lesson for amiddle school classroom that is
both tied to the curriculum, sosomething that they need to
cover anyway, but joyful andthat kids will enjoy doing, and
(25:35):
so that's called the RosenthalPrize, and anybody can look that
up online and see all the priorlessons and hopefully teachers
who maybe don't have ideas abouthow to bring joy into the
classroom might find some ideasfrom that website or others.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (25:49):
That is so exciting.
With all of the differentthings that you're doing, like
with the teacher training.
What impact have you seen withbeing able to do that
collaboration, the educationfield.
Cindy Lawrence (26:00):
So most of our experience here comes from
feedback from teachers who bringtheir students to Lomath for a
field trip, or sometimes webring our exhibits to a school,
and we consistently get feedbackfrom teachers who say that the
kids had a really wonderfulexperience, but also one that
stays with them.
(26:21):
At one point we had aprofessional evaluation firm
come in and evaluate some of ourtraveling exhibits that we
brought to a one-day sciencefestival, and they not only
interviewed parents and familieswhile they were there, but they
got phone numbers and theycalled two three weeks later and
they found it remarkable thatthe families were still talking
(26:43):
about the math that they hadlearned from an interaction
walking through a festival andspending, you know, 15 minutes
with an exhibit, and so that'swhat we hear from teachers too
that the kids are still talkingabout what they learned days
later, and we hope that thatengagement encourages and
inspires students.
(27:03):
We've now been open for morethan 12 years and something that
I had long hoped to happen hasactually happened.
I had hoped that there would beyoung adults and hopefully
eventually older adults out inthe world who would be talking
about their career and wouldpoint to MoMath as a place that
inspired them and we've hadmultiple examples now of young
(27:27):
people that are in the topuniversities in our country or
going to even graduate school atthe top universities who grew
up at MoMath, and it gives mesuch pleasure to hear those
stories and see those youngpeople and to feel like we made
a little bit of a difference insomebody's life.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (27:45):
Absolutely Engaging with math outside of
the classroom develops a deeperappreciation for the subject, I
think.
So what are some ways thatparents can engage their
children with math at home?
Cindy Lawrence (27:57):
So I think it's all about viewing math as
something you play with.
Yeah, you can take outflashcards and drill your
children on addition facts ormultiplication facts, and maybe
that's even important to do, butit's not fun.
So what is fun?
What is fun is looking aroundand seeing where math is in the
world around us.
So everywhere you go, you'llsee tilings, you'll see
(28:19):
tessellations.
This is even in your bathroomor your kitchen.
There are tiles.
How do they fit together?
How many different shapes arethere?
Could it go on forever.
Are there gaps?
Are there overlaps?
Everywhere you look, you'll seesymmetry.
Why does a building look thesame on this side and that side?
Or maybe it doesn't?
And how does that feel to us?
How do we perceive the beautyor the lack thereof?
Perceive the beauty or the lackthereof?
(28:41):
Geometry, shapes how do we putthings together?
How do you know if you go onvacation and you have a suitcase
and you're trying to fiteverything into your suitcase?
Or now you have multiple familysuitcases but they all have to
fit into the trunk of your car?
That's math too.
So kind of pointing out wherethe math is around us and
playing with it.
(29:01):
You know puzzles that we do.
There's very much math inherentin the Rubik's cube, for example
, is highly mathematical.
There's something called grouptheory.
That's an advanced area ofstudy in mathematics, but if
you're learning how to solve aRubik's cube, you're doing group
theory, you're using it and sokind of looking at the world
(29:21):
around us and pointing out.
Even you know, even on aweekend, at home, we're going to
run some errands.
And in which order should werun those errands?
Should we go to the post officeand then the grocery store and
then the bank, or in some otherorder?
And what's the most efficientway to get to three places and
come back home?
There's math in that too, evenin terms of what route you're
(29:42):
going to take.
This road is longer, but I cango faster home.
There's math in that too, evenin terms of what route you're
going to take.
Well, on this, this road islonger but I can go faster.
This road is shorter, but Ihave to drive more slowly, which
is going to get me there faster?
Or dating.
This is a recipe for four, butwe're having eight people for
dinner tonight.
How do we change the recipe?
So, just trying to pull outsome of the math and really
(30:05):
model, being joyful around it.
Of course, coming to MoMathenjoying our exhibits or even
for those who are not in thearea, enjoying our online
programs, is another way.
If a parent struggles to seethe joy of math or the math
around them themselves, there'sa wealth of programs they can
come to with their children ofall ages and hopefully
(30:27):
experience a little bit of thejoy of math.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (30:30):
Some of your programs that you offer that are
online are like the monthlymath gym, and then there's the
folding Fridays origami that youhave and a weekly loving math
for K-3 students online.
I think that's where you'rereading stories and doing games.
Cindy Lawrence (30:48):
It's all fun.
It's all hopefully designed tohave kids laughing, enjoying,
creating, seeing math in adifferent way than what they see
in the classroom.
That's really the point of it,because you know what Kids will
focus on something that they areengaged in.
So if you enjoy doing something, then you're more interested in
(31:10):
learning about how it works andwhat's behind it, whereas if
you don't enjoy doing something,you know you do what you have
to do and you walk away.
So we're all about finding theenjoyment and the fun and the
playful side of mathematics.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (31:23):
Absolutely.
You also have the Ask aMathematician online and then
tutoring.
Cindy Lawrence (31:29):
We try to reach people wherever they are and try
to provide what people need.
The Ask a Mathematician is aparticularly lovely program
because it's really kind of noholds barred.
We get adults asking mathquestions.
Maybe they read something inthe news that didn't make sense
for them.
We have parents who sometimescome with homework questions
(31:51):
that they're trying to helptheir children with, but they
themselves don't know the answer, so they're looking for help
from us.
And then we have kids that comeand they just have interesting
questions like about infinity orabout zero or about how you
become a mathematician or whatdo you do all day as a
mathematician.
And I love those programsbecause they are so open-ended
(32:11):
and it's a dialogue andeverybody participates, and that
is one thing I think that thepandemic left us with.
That is a plus that everybodyis comfortable joining a program
online and and interacting witheach other, and we'll have
people of all ages from all overthe world interacting in a room
together and there's somethingvery joyful about that.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (32:33):
So, as we look toward the future and shaping
the next generation of mathlearners, what advice would you
give to educators and parents?
Cindy Lawrence (32:42):
I think the advice I would most want to give
to educators and parents is toplease get away from this idea
that we can identify someone whowill be good in math and who
will not be good in math, andI'd like to leave you with two
examples that go beyond my ownfamily.
The first one is StevenStrogatz, who is one of the most
prominent mathematicians in ourcountry and he's excellent at
(33:05):
interacting with a generalpublic, and he will say he was
never the fastest one in hismath class.
He was the one who struggledand had to think deeply, but yet
he did, and he has becomeincredibly successful in the
world of mathematics.
So this idea that the kids whoare really fast must be better
(33:27):
at it and everybody else is notgood at it.
We need to dispel that notion,not just in the classroom but
even with parents at home,because how a parent interacts
with their child around math isreally going to set a lot of how
the child views themselves inmathematics.
The other example that I liketo share is about Eileen Collins
.
Eileen Collins is an astronautand she was the first female
(33:51):
commander of a space shuttlemission in our space shuttle
program here in the UnitedStates and she gave a talk that
I happened to see and what shetalked about was the fact that
she was not good in math allthroughout high school and
calculus was something that shedid not master I can't remember
if she didn't master it ordidn't even try and take it in
(34:11):
high school and she was veryhappy when she graduated from
high school that she would neverhave to encounter mathematics
again and she wanted to be apilot and then an astronaut.
And she wanted to be a pilotand then an astronaut.
And when she got to college,much to her dismay, she found
that she needed to mastercalculus or she was not going to
become a pilot or an astronaut.
And because she so strongly hadan ambition in terms of her
(34:35):
career, she said she just made adecision that she was going to
do whatever it took to figureout this calculus topic and she
wasn't going to give up and shewasn't going to walk away.
And indeed she did master itand she did become a pilot and
she did become an astronaut, anda very successful astronaut.
And this is high school.
(34:55):
This is somebody who perceivedherself and probably her
teachers and her parents mayhave perceived her the same way
as not being strong in maththroughout high school.
And if she could become good inmath at that late stage of her
educational life, so caneverybody else.
And so we should not look atthe child in kindergarten who
(35:18):
has trouble understandingnumbers or counting or
comparisons or addition orsubtraction and write them off
as not going to be good math.
It's just too soon to tell, andmaybe the light bulb hasn't
gone on yet.
Maybe they need an approachthat's different from the one
that we've been trying.
Maybe it just takes a littlebit more time, but everybody can
(35:41):
master mathematics if they wantto and if they have an
incentive to.
So we try to be part of thatincentive, and I would encourage
parents and educators to havethat mindset of the fact that
everybody can be good andeverybody can enjoy math.
We just have to find the rightpath in.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (35:58):
And MoMath sounds like it's definitely one
of those amazing paths in.
So thank you so much forjoining us today and for sharing
the incredible work you'redoing at MoMath.
Your passion for making mathaccessible and fun is truly
inspiring.
Cindy Lawrence (36:12):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure chattingwith you and I hope people will
go to MoMath.
org and see all of the programswe have Will come to visit us.
We're right now on Fifth Avenuein the center of Manhattan and
we'd love to see everybody inperson or online and share our
brand of mathematics witheveryone.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (36:36):
Changing math mindset starts with us.
Include more hands-on,real-world math activities into
your life.
Visit MoMath or explore theirfree online resources to see how
fun and engaging math can be.
Let's work together to build ageneration of confident, curious
learners who see math as asource of joy.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
(36:57):
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at lisa@
drlisahrhassler.
com, or visit my website at www.
drlisahassler.
com and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
(37:19):
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.