July 17, 2025 • 26 mins
Behind the concrete walls and steel bars of America's prisons, something remarkable is happening. Education—once considered an afterthought in correctional settings—is proving to be one of the most powerful tools for transformation, not just for individuals but for entire institutions.
Our conversation with Joshua Gilliam, who brings a unique dual perspective as both a former correctional officer and current university instructor, reveals the profound impact of educational opportunities for incarcerated individuals. Drawing on over a decade of experience and his ongoing doctoral research, Joshua shares compelling evidence that participation in higher education programs significantly reduces behavioral incidents within facilities while opening pathways to meaningful employment after release.
The journey of prison education reflects America's evolving approach to rehabilitation. From the early "nothing works" doctrine that treated prisons merely as holding centers to today's growing recognition that education can break cycles of recidivism, we're witnessing a paradigm shift in how we think about corrections. The restoration of Second Chance Pell grants in 2023—after being eliminated by the 1994 Crime Bill—represents a crucial policy change making college accessible behind bars again.
What makes this conversation particularly timely is the potential for mutual benefit. As colleges face enrollment challenges from demographic shifts and pandemic disruptions, correctional education programs offer a way to fill seats while fulfilling their educational mission. For correctional facilities, education creates safer environments for both incarcerated people and staff while addressing the staggering human and financial costs of America's world-leading incarceration rates.
Perhaps most moving is the human element—older students mentoring younger ones, individuals overcoming literacy challenges to read their first book, or former substance users preparing for careers helping others overcome addiction. These stories remind us that education doesn't just transform individual lives; it ripples outward to strengthen families and communities.
Consider this: nearly everyone incarcerated today will eventually return to our neighborhoods. The question isn't whether they'll come home, but who they'll be when they do.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (00:00):
What happens when education reaches behind
prison walls.
Today, we explore how learningcan transform not only futures
but entire institutions,starting with the power of a
second chance.
Welcome to the brighter side ofeducation, research, innovation
(00:25):
and resources.
I'm your host, Dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we, as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
(00:45):
student outcomes?
Before we begin ourconversation, let's take a
moment to explore the broadercontext of education and
corrections and why it matters.
For many years, the focus inprison education has been on
basic literacy and GEDcompletion, but growing research
shows that more advancededucational programs, including
vocational and college-levelofferings, can yield powerful
(01:09):
benefits both inside prisonwalls and after release.
Transformative learning theorydeveloped by Jack Mezenro
suggests that adults can undergosignificant shifts in
perspective through meaningfuleducational experiences In the
prison setting.
This can lead to changes inbehavior, increased self-worth
and even a reduction indisciplinary infractions.
(01:29):
A 2021 study by Dina Paytonemphasized that incarcerated
students who engaged ineducation programs were more
motivated and had betterreintegration outcomes, While
Payton focused on recidivism thetendency of a released
individual to be re-arrested andreturned to prison her work
aligns with case studies, likeone in Indiana that showed that
(01:51):
those enrolled in college-levelcourses committed fewer
infractions than their peers.
This behavior link is furthersupported by Jeremy Courtney's
2019 study, which found astatistically significant drop
in misconduct among inmates whoparticipated in education
programs compared to those whodid not.
Ged programs showed thegreatest impact and the data
(02:13):
suggests that the educationalengagement may relieve
institutional strain and fostermore constructive behavior.
Post-release outcomes are justas compelling.
Keith D Johnson's 2022 study,grounded in Bandura social
learning theory, comparedformerly incarcerated
individuals who completedcorrectional education to those
(02:34):
who didn't.
Individuals who participated ineducational programs while
incarcerated reported betteremployment prospects and a
smoother transition back intosociety, overcoming barriers
that often lead to reoffending.
These findings present acompelling case.
Correctional education is notjust a rehabilitative tool.
It's a catalyst fortransformation.
(02:56):
Yet, despite its promise, manyinstitutions still limit
education access to the basics.
Today's guest, Joshua Gilliam,is working to change that
narrative.
With over a decade ofexperience in both higher
education and the correctionalsystem, Joshua brings a unique
dual perspective to thisconversation.
He has served as a correctionalofficer, case manager, director
(03:18):
of correctional education andnow an instructor in crime and
justice studies at Wright StateUniversity.
His work has centered ondeveloping second chance, Pell
programs, regional educationinitiatives and distance
learning strategies designedspecifically for incarcerated
populations.
Joshua is not only apractitioner but a scholar
Currently pursuing his doctorate, with research focused on the
(03:40):
relationship betweenparticipation in higher
education programs andbehavioral outcomes among
incarcerated students.
His firsthand experience,combined with a deep
understanding of policy andprogram implementation, gives
him valuable insight into howcorrectional education can serve
as a powerful tool for change.
Hi, Joshua, it is a pleasure tohave you here today.
(04:02):
Welcome to the Brighter Side ofEducation.
Joshua Gilliam (04:03):
Thank you so much for having me on.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (04:05):
All right, so let's start with the landscape
of education in correctionalsettings.
For those who are unfamiliar,can you give us a broad overview
of how educational programslike GED completion and two-year
degrees typically functionwithin prisons and what the
primary benefits are for boththe individuals and the
institutions?
Joshua Gilliam (04:24):
So for the typical functions of GED
programming and educationalprogramming, I want to back up
and give a little bit of ahistorical context, if I can.
Robert Martinson posted earlywork in the 1930s and 40s that
basically said nothing workedand that's been a long question
of does rehabilitation actuallywork?
And for a little while therewas like OK, well, prison
(04:45):
centers are just reformatoriesfor the most part, just holding
people, housing people, and thatpractice still kind of exists
today.
Rehabilitation came intoimportance in about the 60s.
Security, just while it'simportant in the correctional
system, there needed to besomething to address reentry, to
give folks a way back toreintegrate into society.
(05:05):
So we started looking into GEDcompletions, but prior to that
there was voc tech trainings.
I know there's correctionalfacilities that have HVAC,
masonry, automotive and some ofthose trades have been very
popular and even then so some ofthose trades have a long wait
list.
But as it applies to GED, movinginto that space, ged has been
(05:26):
basic education, has beenaddressing what some of the
research says as far as literacyrates go.
Particularly.
Literacy rates, or lack thereof, have particularly impacted
African-American males, wherepeople can't read, can't write,
and even in my experience I'vecome across individuals who've
needed assistance in being ableto send out legal mail or to
(05:46):
read part of their programming.
So having adult-based educationin corrections has been a
necessary and vital functionbecause some of the research has
shown that folks that areparticipating in those programs
versus those who are not have aless likely chance to recidivate
.
As far as the benefits to thecorrectional institution is that
if you're not offering any typeof program or alternatives to
(06:10):
have those incarceratedindividuals re-enter society
successfully, then you'rerunning into problems of
recidivism or falling right backinto criminal lifestyles or
antisocial behavior patterns.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:21):
Yes, my dissertation focused on third
grade reading level readingrates and there was a
correlation between thoseindividuals who were not reading
on level in third grade andincarcerated individuals later
in life.
It really does play asignificant part because your
future career options arediminished when you don't have
those basic skills to be able toacquire the jobs that require
(06:42):
those things.
It's great that the correctionsfacilities are addressing some
of those needs.
And what about the two-yeardegrees?
How do they typically work inprisons?
Joshua Gilliam (06:52):
So they work in two ways.
For those that have been inthis space for a little while
and by a little while we'retalking about second chance Pell
programming went into.
The facilities themselves havetaught.
Those classes have had theclassroom space to add more
light to that.
Classroom space is a premium incorrectional facilities because
space is not always available.
(07:13):
So if those spaces aren'tavailable, it's mostly what we
would consider a hybrid modellike 50-50, maybe 50% in person,
50% online or asynchronous.
So those are the two ways rightnow that education is being
delivered and you're starting tosee states like Michigan,
kentucky, ohio start to embracethat.
But there are some states thathaven't really entertained or
(07:34):
there's even some four-yearuniversities that have not
considered this space yet, whichis why I'm here today speaking
on the importance of thatdialogue and that joint
partnership between a college ora university and a correctional
institution.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (07:49):
What are the benefits for the institution.
Joshua Gilliam (07:51):
Benefits for the institution is addressing
recidivism.
You know, while the researchhas positively shown that GED
completion rates are alignedwith reducing recidivism, ged is
not necessarily addressingworkforce barriers, which it's
essentially running intoroadblocks for incarcerated
individuals.
Yes, we can give them work,trade, employment, but, for
example, one of the programsthat I helped develop was the
(08:14):
human services and you'restarting to see a lot of folks
move into that space because ifthey suffered from substance
abuse they want to give back andhelp those struggling with
substance abuse addiction, so onand so forth.
So those two-year degrees areopening pathways that otherwise
would not be available to thatpopulation.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:31):
It must lend to a safer facility for
everybody.
If there's less infractionsthat are happening and so you
could see where the correctionalofficers then have a safer
environment to be in.
There's a shortage ofcorrectional officers and so
having a safer environment thenmay be more appealing for people
to come into that line of work.
Joshua Gilliam (08:52):
So I want to add to that, because you made a
great point in terms of justmodeling that behavior for not
only less infractions, butyou're committing to a safer
environment, not just forprisoners but for staff, for
your auxiliary staff, for yoursecurity staff, which means
you're not having officersgetting stabbed, you're not
(09:13):
having fights that break out.
If you do go charge-free to apoint and by charge-free I'm
talking about behavioralincident-free at an institution
you could essentially like moveto a lower level security
institution and gain moreopportunities, because they
might have more resources atanother institution than there
would be at the current facility.
(09:34):
The trick to that, though, is,if you're enrolled in a college
education program two years,you'll want to stay there to
finish your degree, becauseright now there's not a whole
lot of transfer agreements rightnow, but would like to see that
, and that's why we want to talkabout this because, let's say,
a prisoner has a family memberwho's ill, but they're not going
to make it.
They may want to move to thatfacility, but they don't want to
(09:55):
risk their education.
That's a tough spot to be in.
So if you have colleges beingable to work together to be able
to not necessarily takesubstitutions for courses, but
if we're able to transfercollege to college, that's
pretty important in terms ofclosure and being able to think
critically too.
I could make an argument thatif that individual does not get
(10:16):
to go close to home during thatdifficult time, it might lead to
something behavioral.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:22):
Yeah, right, and I'm surprised that there's
not any sort of transfer ofcredits.
That would be allowed to happen, because a lot of times,
everyday, people will transfertheir credits from one college
or one university to another,and that's kind of a common
thing.
So I'm surprised that it's notmore readily available for those
programs that you're working on, and I could see where that
(10:43):
would definitely be helpful forsomebody, especially if maybe
you started a program and maybeyou leave the corrections
facility you know if you stillwant to finish it, or so just
give some more flexibility, moreopportunities.
Joshua Gilliam (10:55):
So to give a little grace.
The programs are new andthey're still trying to figure
this out, but I did have anindividual who did parole out
and we were able to transitionfrom that one college to the
nearest serving communitycollege under that branch.
We were able to transition fromthat one college to the nearest
serving community college underthat branch and was able to
continue and graduate at hisnearby community college.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:14):
And some of the courses were completely
asynchronous, but then sometimesyou would have an educator go
into the facility.
Joshua Gilliam (11:20):
It wasn't often, but it did occur.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:22):
And you served as the director of correctional
education and worked in variousroles within the Virginia
Department of Corrections.
So, from that vantage point,what are some of the unique
challenges and opportunities youencountered in bringing
educational programs toincarcerated populations?
Joshua Gilliam (11:38):
One of the biggest challenges and I've got
two of them that I'd like todiscuss is that the security of
the institution Right, just likecolleges, prisons aren't all
created equally Depending on thesecurity level of the
institution may have morerestrictions than others.
Right, you have road camps, youhave minimum-medium facilities
and then you have what I workedin Virginia Supermax and those
(12:00):
opportunities can be limited.
Trying to deliver not just aneducational service but an
accessible and qualityeducational service can be
problematic.
And I'll give you a furtherexample that, as far as the
security of institution goes,there was a policy last year
that came into play as a paperpolicy, and the reason they
(12:20):
implemented this paper policywas to address the drugs coming
into the facility, andunderstandably so.
There was a point in time whereI would, as a director of
correctional education, bring intextbooks, supplies, so on, so
forth.
Because they had trust in me, Iwas able to establish that
rapport hamper delay.
If classes start on this weekand textbooks aren't coming in
(12:48):
to a certain point, some of thiswork has to be done super early
to ensure that all theresources are available and
adequate access to resources.
Just another example is thatsome students have access to
computers.
Some students are doing theirclasses from a tablet I think of
my students here at WrightState and we have accommodations
for accessibility services.
(13:09):
You know, if you have olderstudents who can't quite see, or
the screen's not bright enoughor the text is small, it's hard
to address these problems.
So those are just some of thechallenges that can be presented
within the institution, or atleast the level of security.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:23):
What kind of opportunities have you
encountered?
Joshua Gilliam (13:26):
So the opportunities that I have found
because again we're speakingprimarily from someone who has
worked in a facility that hashad a lot of restrictions in my
experience in Virginia andKentucky is there's an
opportunity for cohorting theamount of networking we had
going on with the students thatwould come to the office or
would meet up in the hallway totalk about homework or to talk
(13:48):
about a certain topic or paperor research.
It was really enlighteningbecause they weren't just
dealing with the everydaycorrectional things.
They weren't caught up on aproblem that could possibly land
them in restrictive housing, ifyou will disciplinary
violations, things like that.
So when you're seeingpro-social things being modeled
in a criminogenic environment,that's transformative.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:09):
Yeah, it really is.
What kind of incentives are youcurrently involved in that aim
to expand the educational accessin the correctional facilities?
Joshua Gilliam (14:18):
So currently, as it stands, I'm involved in the
Bluegrass Coalition for HigherEducation in Prisons and that
coalition is formed of Kentucky,ohio and Michigan and we are
going to be doing a conferenceat the University of Louisville
in Kentucky.
I will be serving on a panelwith nearby serving community
colleges, correctionalinstitutions, doc practitioners,
(14:40):
stakeholders, and we'll begathering to have a dialogue to
address some of these concernsof delivering programs, to be
able to talk about the impactsthat these programs can have.
In addition to the initiativesI just presented at the
Correctional EducationAssociation I'm not a member yet
, but I presented in Omaha,nebraska, some of my research
(15:01):
that I'm here to talk to youabout today, and I just got
accepted for another proposal inPittsburgh it's in August for
Correctional EducationAssociation, and that is the
balance of academic rigor andinstitutional growth mindset.
That's going to be mypresentation on that, because
while my first presentation wasmore scholarly research focused,
this is going to be morepractitioner based the
(15:23):
experiences that I had, becauseas long as we're sharing
together and being able to learnfrom one another, this is how
we can not only just talk aboutthese programs but we could
improve them as well.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:33):
Absolutely so.
You touched on your research.
Can you share some of those keythemes or early takeaways from
the current research on therelationship between
participation in prison,education and behavioral
outcomes?
Joshua Gilliam (15:46):
While the research is still ongoing, I'm
finding that there is areduction in total behavioral
incidents for thoseparticipating in second chance
Pell programming.
Now, by definition what I meanby behavioral incidents, because
some folks might think streetcharges, I want to be sure to
differentiate.
Street charges are in thecommunity, you know, speeding or
assault or homicide, things ofthat nature, and then you get
(16:06):
tried, convicted, appealed, soon, so forth.
In corrections there's also abehavioral incident system as
well, also known asinstitutional infractions or
disciplinary violations, andthose can be aside from total
infractions.
Going to be breaking it down asclassification of minor and
major infractions.
So minor can be anything assimply being in an unauthorized
area, so minor can be anythingas simply being in an
(16:26):
unauthorized area, whereas amajor infraction could be escape
or drugs or gang paraphernalia,because gangs are zero
tolerance policy withincorrectional systems.
But that's that's kind of oneof the early takeaways right now
and while that's significant interms of not just modeling
behavior inside the state ofincarceration but how that can
transition to the outside uponrelease.
(16:49):
Additionally, one of the keythemes I've found from the data
is that older incarceratedindividuals value education more
so than young prisoners.
I saw a lot of the olderindividuals, kind of take on a
mentor role of sorts and helpedthe young individuals come in.
And there is a difference inmentality.
Again, working in corrections,I remember the for lack of
(17:09):
better term, the old head styleconvict mentality, whereas now
the younger generation is comingin and it's more for lack of
better term, instantgratification, and there is a
difference, so that olderpopulation is able to mentor and
help those younger individualscome in, not just to learn to do
time, but also to be able toshow.
These opportunities were notavailable to us years ago and as
(17:31):
you guys are coming in, this isavailable to you.
You are Pell eligible at thispoint, so it's important to
emphasize that and I've seen alot of those individuals take
the young ones up under theirwings, so it's been nice.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:43):
Can you tell us a little bit about any
qualitative work that you'replanning with incarcerated
students or staff, and how willthese conversations inform your
research or program development?
Joshua Gilliam (17:53):
Although education can be transformative
from a quantitative perspective,because that moves DOC
stakeholders, when they seenumbers, when they see a
reduction in behaviors, whenthey see a reduction in
recidivism, that moves theneedle for them.
But on the flip side of thatcoin, it doesn't tell the whole
story Qualitatively.
I want to demonstrate howtransformational education can
(18:14):
be Underserved populations suchas women in prison, because
there's not a whole lot ofresearch on that and I'd be
curious to know, as a comparisongroup do women value education
more than male prisoners?
That's something that I'mintrigued about.
Do women value education morethan male prisoners?
That's something that I'mintrigued about.
And the only research out thereon women in prisons is that
they are less violent than men,that they commit more property
crimes than they do violentcrimes.
(18:34):
But I think those perspectivesand those experiences can help
shape what best practices looklike for education and
correctional institutions as ajoint collaboration.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (18:44):
Looking ahead what is your vision for the
future of correctionalinstitutions as a joint
collaboration?
Looking ahead what is yourvision for the future of
correctional education?
What kind of policy changes orprogram shifts would you most
like to see in order to makeeducation in prisons more
impactful and accessible?
Joshua Gilliam (18:57):
I think one of the most important things,
because I mean we came out of apandemic there in 2020, and
there was a lot of shortfallsacademically.
There was shortfalls withretention, which has been a very
important topic amongst highered, along with the demographic
cliff of 2025, where studentsaren't coming to college or
millennials didn't have kids,something to that effect.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:17):
A lot of people that are reconsidering
options like do I need to go tocollege?
Is it worth me getting intodebt?
Can I find something else?
Maybe in the trades or so intofarming, there's a shift.
Joshua Gilliam (19:29):
So my vision for correctional education?
We come out of a pandemic wherewe saw a shortfall in
enrollments and retention, whichare pretty important topics
around higher education, alongwith this demographic cliff of
2025, where we don't have anupcoming generation of mass
students coming into college.
My vision for colleges toaddress those shortfalls would
(19:50):
be to collaborate with penalinstitutions to educate the
incarcerated and further addressrecidivism, because it's a
joint collaboration, it's abusiness model at the end of the
day.
So colleges are having theseenrollments, they're having
these seats filled, they're ableto pay their staff adequately
and for the first time in awhile because in 1994, the
Clinton administration enactedthe Violent Crime and Law
(20:13):
Enforcement Act, which strippedPell eligibility for about 30
years it just came available in2023.
I was in DC at a NCHEPconference when that policy was
lifted.
So the importance of thatpolicy shift is that colleges
can certainly address theirenrollment shortfalls and, on
the flip side of that coin,corrections can address
(20:35):
recidivism by offering theseeducational services.
Is there any?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:38):
pushback about offering these programs to
inmates because of cost.
Joshua Gilliam (20:42):
As far as cost goes, I don't, I don't think.
Think there is, because withPell eligibility, you know, an
incarcerated individual istreated no differently than a
student in the community.
So they got 36, I think it, anddon't quote me on this 36
months of Pell eligibility.
Ok, so I mean it's.
I don't want to say freecollege, because there's no such
thing, Right, Right, but that'swhat essentially pays for that.
(21:03):
I think where it gets trickywith the cost is is like the
college has to eat some of themoney and funds in terms of
academic resources being able toprovide whether that's laptops
or whether that's academicresources pens, pencils,
notepads, Chromebooks, you know,if the institution allows
things of that nature.
So really, with thecorrectional institution being
(21:24):
the oversight entity, they'rereally not out cost.
It's more of a joint venturefor them.
Is there anyone that?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:30):
comes back and says like I don't think my
taxes should be paying forincarcerated people to be
getting a college education whenI can't even afford it, or my
kids.
Just wondering if that was partof a conversation that you've
encountered as part of achallenge.
Joshua Gilliam (21:44):
So there's always a point of contention,
always an opposing viewpoint toany topic, and to address that
taxpayer concerns and certainlyI mean rightfully so I can't
argue that statement.
But at the same time, what wehave to consider and look at is
I've seen correctional staff nothave the incentive and that's a
that's a space I would like to.
(22:04):
I was fortunate enough that Idid have a education incentive
that they would pay for highereducation, but there are some
(22:27):
institutions that just don'tallow that and that's where the
difference, where it's like, ohwell, they're getting free
education and I can't theremight be the rub there.
That's where the us versus themmentality comes in,
unfortunately.
But to address you know,overall, your overarching point
of taxpayer, it's cheaper toeducate and to reintegrate than
(22:47):
it is to long term warehouse.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (22:49):
So, for educators and parents listening,
who may never have consideredthe intersection of education
and corrections, what would youlike them to take away from this
conversation?
Joshua Gilliam (22:59):
What I would like for listeners, educators,
stakeholders to glean from thisconversation and other pieces
down the road because I'mcertainly one piece of it, I'm
not all of it is that I wouldurge listeners to think about
how they can improve theircommunities.
We, as part of the UnitedStates, we've tried mandatory
minimum sentencing.
It's resulted in massincarceration.
We've criminalized drugs.
(23:19):
It has resulted in not onlymass incarceration, but
disproportionatelyover-representation of
African-American males in ourprison population, also
additionally impacting ethnicminority groups and disparate
treatment amongst those groups.
We incarcerate more than anyother country in this world.
At some point, theseincarcerated individuals will go
home, possibly be your neighbor, and in that point, as my
(23:42):
research is demonstrating, ifeducation can be transformative,
then we can save money andlives by educating rather than
housing folks in long-termsituations.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (23:53):
Yeah, I'd rather have an educated neighbor
who wants something good withtheir life and has opportunities
for growth and potential to bea benefit to the community, not
a hindrance.
So I think that education woulddefinitely speak to that.
Thank you so much, Joshua, forsharing your time and your
insight and your passion forcorrectional education with us
today.
Your work highlights the powerof education to not only
(24:15):
transform individuals' lives,but to shift institutional
cultures and strengthencommunities.
It's been a pleasure having youon the Brighter Side of
Education.
Joshua Gilliam (24:23):
Thank you so much for the time.
Dr Hasler, Thank you for havingme on, Really enjoyed this
conversation and I certainlyhope your listeners and others
find some value in this dialogue.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (24:32):
Today's conversation sparked your
interest.
I encourage you to learn moreabout prison education programs
in your state or community.
Whether you're an educator, aparent or someone that simply
believes in second chances, yourvoice can support meaningful
change.
Education doesn't just happenin classrooms.
It can happen anywhere.
Hope meets opportunity.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
(24:55):
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at lisa at
drlisahasslercom, or visit mywebsite at wwwdrlisahasslercom
and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
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(25:17):
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
What happens when education reaches behind
prison walls.
Today, we explore how learningcan transform not only futures
but entire institutions,starting with the power of a
second chance.
Welcome to the brighter side ofeducation, research, innovation
(00:25):
and resources.
I'm your host, Dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we, as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
(00:45):
student outcomes?
Before we begin ourconversation, let's take a
moment to explore the broadercontext of education and
corrections and why it matters.
For many years, the focus inprison education has been on
basic literacy and GEDcompletion, but growing research
shows that more advancededucational programs, including
vocational and college-levelofferings, can yield powerful
(01:09):
benefits both inside prisonwalls and after release.
Transformative learning theorydeveloped by Jack Mezenro
suggests that adults can undergosignificant shifts in
perspective through meaningfuleducational experiences In the
prison setting.
This can lead to changes inbehavior, increased self-worth
and even a reduction indisciplinary infractions.
(01:29):
A 2021 study by Dina Paytonemphasized that incarcerated
students who engaged ineducation programs were more
motivated and had betterreintegration outcomes, While
Payton focused on recidivism thetendency of a released
individual to be re-arrested andreturned to prison her work
aligns with case studies, likeone in Indiana that showed that
(01:51):
those enrolled in college-levelcourses committed fewer
infractions than their peers.
This behavior link is furthersupported by Jeremy Courtney's
2019 study, which found astatistically significant drop
in misconduct among inmates whoparticipated in education
programs compared to those whodid not.
Ged programs showed thegreatest impact and the data
(02:13):
suggests that the educationalengagement may relieve
institutional strain and fostermore constructive behavior.
Post-release outcomes are justas compelling.
Keith D Johnson's 2022 study,grounded in Bandura social
learning theory, comparedformerly incarcerated
individuals who completedcorrectional education to those
(02:34):
who didn't.
Individuals who participated ineducational programs while
incarcerated reported betteremployment prospects and a
smoother transition back intosociety, overcoming barriers
that often lead to reoffending.
These findings present acompelling case.
Correctional education is notjust a rehabilitative tool.
It's a catalyst fortransformation.
(02:56):
Yet, despite its promise, manyinstitutions still limit
education access to the basics.
Today's guest, Joshua Gilliam,is working to change that
narrative.
With over a decade ofexperience in both higher
education and the correctionalsystem, Joshua brings a unique
dual perspective to thisconversation.
He has served as a correctionalofficer, case manager, director
(03:18):
of correctional education andnow an instructor in crime and
justice studies at Wright StateUniversity.
His work has centered ondeveloping second chance, Pell
programs, regional educationinitiatives and distance
learning strategies designedspecifically for incarcerated
populations.
Joshua is not only apractitioner but a scholar
Currently pursuing his doctorate, with research focused on the
(03:40):
relationship betweenparticipation in higher
education programs andbehavioral outcomes among
incarcerated students.
His firsthand experience,combined with a deep
understanding of policy andprogram implementation, gives
him valuable insight into howcorrectional education can serve
as a powerful tool for change.
Hi, Joshua, it is a pleasure tohave you here today.
(04:02):
Welcome to the Brighter Side ofEducation.
Joshua Gilliam (04:03):
Thank you so much for having me on.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (04:05):
All right, so let's start with the landscape
of education in correctionalsettings.
For those who are unfamiliar,can you give us a broad overview
of how educational programslike GED completion and two-year
degrees typically functionwithin prisons and what the
primary benefits are for boththe individuals and the
institutions?
Joshua Gilliam (04:24):
So for the typical functions of GED
programming and educationalprogramming, I want to back up
and give a little bit of ahistorical context, if I can.
Robert Martinson posted earlywork in the 1930s and 40s that
basically said nothing workedand that's been a long question
of does rehabilitation actuallywork?
And for a little while therewas like OK, well, prison
(04:45):
centers are just reformatoriesfor the most part, just holding
people, housing people, and thatpractice still kind of exists
today.
Rehabilitation came intoimportance in about the 60s.
Security, just while it'simportant in the correctional
system, there needed to besomething to address reentry, to
give folks a way back toreintegrate into society.
(05:05):
So we started looking into GEDcompletions, but prior to that
there was voc tech trainings.
I know there's correctionalfacilities that have HVAC,
masonry, automotive and some ofthose trades have been very
popular and even then so some ofthose trades have a long wait
list.
But as it applies to GED, movinginto that space, ged has been
(05:26):
basic education, has beenaddressing what some of the
research says as far as literacyrates go.
Particularly.
Literacy rates, or lack thereof, have particularly impacted
African-American males, wherepeople can't read, can't write,
and even in my experience I'vecome across individuals who've
needed assistance in being ableto send out legal mail or to
(05:46):
read part of their programming.
So having adult-based educationin corrections has been a
necessary and vital functionbecause some of the research has
shown that folks that areparticipating in those programs
versus those who are not have aless likely chance to recidivate
.
As far as the benefits to thecorrectional institution is that
if you're not offering any typeof program or alternatives to
(06:10):
have those incarceratedindividuals re-enter society
successfully, then you'rerunning into problems of
recidivism or falling right backinto criminal lifestyles or
antisocial behavior patterns.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:21):
Yes, my dissertation focused on third
grade reading level readingrates and there was a
correlation between thoseindividuals who were not reading
on level in third grade andincarcerated individuals later
in life.
It really does play asignificant part because your
future career options arediminished when you don't have
those basic skills to be able toacquire the jobs that require
(06:42):
those things.
It's great that the correctionsfacilities are addressing some
of those needs.
And what about the two-yeardegrees?
How do they typically work inprisons?
Joshua Gilliam (06:52):
So they work in two ways.
For those that have been inthis space for a little while
and by a little while we'retalking about second chance Pell
programming went into.
The facilities themselves havetaught.
Those classes have had theclassroom space to add more
light to that.
Classroom space is a premium incorrectional facilities because
space is not always available.
(07:13):
So if those spaces aren'tavailable, it's mostly what we
would consider a hybrid modellike 50-50, maybe 50% in person,
50% online or asynchronous.
So those are the two ways rightnow that education is being
delivered and you're starting tosee states like Michigan,
kentucky, ohio start to embracethat.
But there are some states thathaven't really entertained or
(07:34):
there's even some four-yearuniversities that have not
considered this space yet, whichis why I'm here today speaking
on the importance of thatdialogue and that joint
partnership between a college ora university and a correctional
institution.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (07:49):
What are the benefits for the institution.
Joshua Gilliam (07:51):
Benefits for the institution is addressing
recidivism.
You know, while the researchhas positively shown that GED
completion rates are alignedwith reducing recidivism, ged is
not necessarily addressingworkforce barriers, which it's
essentially running intoroadblocks for incarcerated
individuals.
Yes, we can give them work,trade, employment, but, for
example, one of the programsthat I helped develop was the
(08:14):
human services and you'restarting to see a lot of folks
move into that space because ifthey suffered from substance
abuse they want to give back andhelp those struggling with
substance abuse addiction, so onand so forth.
So those two-year degrees areopening pathways that otherwise
would not be available to thatpopulation.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:31):
It must lend to a safer facility for
everybody.
If there's less infractionsthat are happening and so you
could see where the correctionalofficers then have a safer
environment to be in.
There's a shortage ofcorrectional officers and so
having a safer environment thenmay be more appealing for people
to come into that line of work.
Joshua Gilliam (08:52):
So I want to add to that, because you made a
great point in terms of justmodeling that behavior for not
only less infractions, butyou're committing to a safer
environment, not just forprisoners but for staff, for
your auxiliary staff, for yoursecurity staff, which means
you're not having officersgetting stabbed, you're not
(09:13):
having fights that break out.
If you do go charge-free to apoint and by charge-free I'm
talking about behavioralincident-free at an institution
you could essentially like moveto a lower level security
institution and gain moreopportunities, because they
might have more resources atanother institution than there
would be at the current facility.
(09:34):
The trick to that, though, is,if you're enrolled in a college
education program two years,you'll want to stay there to
finish your degree, becauseright now there's not a whole
lot of transfer agreements rightnow, but would like to see that
, and that's why we want to talkabout this because, let's say,
a prisoner has a family memberwho's ill, but they're not going
to make it.
They may want to move to thatfacility, but they don't want to
(09:55):
risk their education.
That's a tough spot to be in.
So if you have colleges beingable to work together to be able
to not necessarily takesubstitutions for courses, but
if we're able to transfercollege to college, that's
pretty important in terms ofclosure and being able to think
critically too.
I could make an argument thatif that individual does not get
(10:16):
to go close to home during thatdifficult time, it might lead to
something behavioral.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:22):
Yeah, right, and I'm surprised that there's
not any sort of transfer ofcredits.
That would be allowed to happen, because a lot of times,
everyday, people will transfertheir credits from one college
or one university to another,and that's kind of a common
thing.
So I'm surprised that it's notmore readily available for those
programs that you're working on, and I could see where that
(10:43):
would definitely be helpful forsomebody, especially if maybe
you started a program and maybeyou leave the corrections
facility you know if you stillwant to finish it, or so just
give some more flexibility, moreopportunities.
Joshua Gilliam (10:55):
So to give a little grace.
The programs are new andthey're still trying to figure
this out, but I did have anindividual who did parole out
and we were able to transitionfrom that one college to the
nearest serving communitycollege under that branch.
We were able to transition fromthat one college to the nearest
serving community college underthat branch and was able to
continue and graduate at hisnearby community college.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:14):
And some of the courses were completely
asynchronous, but then sometimesyou would have an educator go
into the facility.
Joshua Gilliam (11:20):
It wasn't often, but it did occur.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:22):
And you served as the director of correctional
education and worked in variousroles within the Virginia
Department of Corrections.
So, from that vantage point,what are some of the unique
challenges and opportunities youencountered in bringing
educational programs toincarcerated populations?
Joshua Gilliam (11:38):
One of the biggest challenges and I've got
two of them that I'd like todiscuss is that the security of
the institution Right, just likecolleges, prisons aren't all
created equally Depending on thesecurity level of the
institution may have morerestrictions than others.
Right, you have road camps, youhave minimum-medium facilities
and then you have what I workedin Virginia Supermax and those
(12:00):
opportunities can be limited.
Trying to deliver not just aneducational service but an
accessible and qualityeducational service can be
problematic.
And I'll give you a furtherexample that, as far as the
security of institution goes,there was a policy last year
that came into play as a paperpolicy, and the reason they
(12:20):
implemented this paper policywas to address the drugs coming
into the facility, andunderstandably so.
There was a point in time whereI would, as a director of
correctional education, bring intextbooks, supplies, so on, so
forth.
Because they had trust in me, Iwas able to establish that
rapport hamper delay.
If classes start on this weekand textbooks aren't coming in
(12:48):
to a certain point, some of thiswork has to be done super early
to ensure that all theresources are available and
adequate access to resources.
Just another example is thatsome students have access to
computers.
Some students are doing theirclasses from a tablet I think of
my students here at WrightState and we have accommodations
for accessibility services.
(13:09):
You know, if you have olderstudents who can't quite see, or
the screen's not bright enoughor the text is small, it's hard
to address these problems.
So those are just some of thechallenges that can be presented
within the institution, or atleast the level of security.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:23):
What kind of opportunities have you
encountered?
Joshua Gilliam (13:26):
So the opportunities that I have found
because again we're speakingprimarily from someone who has
worked in a facility that hashad a lot of restrictions in my
experience in Virginia andKentucky is there's an
opportunity for cohorting theamount of networking we had
going on with the students thatwould come to the office or
would meet up in the hallway totalk about homework or to talk
(13:48):
about a certain topic or paperor research.
It was really enlighteningbecause they weren't just
dealing with the everydaycorrectional things.
They weren't caught up on aproblem that could possibly land
them in restrictive housing, ifyou will disciplinary
violations, things like that.
So when you're seeingpro-social things being modeled
in a criminogenic environment,that's transformative.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:09):
Yeah, it really is.
What kind of incentives are youcurrently involved in that aim
to expand the educational accessin the correctional facilities?
Joshua Gilliam (14:18):
So currently, as it stands, I'm involved in the
Bluegrass Coalition for HigherEducation in Prisons and that
coalition is formed of Kentucky,ohio and Michigan and we are
going to be doing a conferenceat the University of Louisville
in Kentucky.
I will be serving on a panelwith nearby serving community
colleges, correctionalinstitutions, doc practitioners,
(14:40):
stakeholders, and we'll begathering to have a dialogue to
address some of these concernsof delivering programs, to be
able to talk about the impactsthat these programs can have.
In addition to the initiativesI just presented at the
Correctional EducationAssociation I'm not a member yet
, but I presented in Omaha,nebraska, some of my research
(15:01):
that I'm here to talk to youabout today, and I just got
accepted for another proposal inPittsburgh it's in August for
Correctional EducationAssociation, and that is the
balance of academic rigor andinstitutional growth mindset.
That's going to be mypresentation on that, because
while my first presentation wasmore scholarly research focused,
this is going to be morepractitioner based the
(15:23):
experiences that I had, becauseas long as we're sharing
together and being able to learnfrom one another, this is how
we can not only just talk aboutthese programs but we could
improve them as well.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:33):
Absolutely so.
You touched on your research.
Can you share some of those keythemes or early takeaways from
the current research on therelationship between
participation in prison,education and behavioral
outcomes?
Joshua Gilliam (15:46):
While the research is still ongoing, I'm
finding that there is areduction in total behavioral
incidents for thoseparticipating in second chance
Pell programming.
Now, by definition what I meanby behavioral incidents, because
some folks might think streetcharges, I want to be sure to
differentiate.
Street charges are in thecommunity, you know, speeding or
assault or homicide, things ofthat nature, and then you get
(16:06):
tried, convicted, appealed, soon, so forth.
In corrections there's also abehavioral incident system as
well, also known asinstitutional infractions or
disciplinary violations, andthose can be aside from total
infractions.
Going to be breaking it down asclassification of minor and
major infractions.
So minor can be anything assimply being in an unauthorized
area, so minor can be anythingas simply being in an
(16:26):
unauthorized area, whereas amajor infraction could be escape
or drugs or gang paraphernalia,because gangs are zero
tolerance policy withincorrectional systems.
But that's that's kind of oneof the early takeaways right now
and while that's significant interms of not just modeling
behavior inside the state ofincarceration but how that can
transition to the outside uponrelease.
(16:49):
Additionally, one of the keythemes I've found from the data
is that older incarceratedindividuals value education more
so than young prisoners.
I saw a lot of the olderindividuals, kind of take on a
mentor role of sorts and helpedthe young individuals come in.
And there is a difference inmentality.
Again, working in corrections,I remember the for lack of
(17:09):
better term, the old head styleconvict mentality, whereas now
the younger generation is comingin and it's more for lack of
better term, instantgratification, and there is a
difference, so that olderpopulation is able to mentor and
help those younger individualscome in, not just to learn to do
time, but also to be able toshow.
These opportunities were notavailable to us years ago and as
(17:31):
you guys are coming in, this isavailable to you.
You are Pell eligible at thispoint, so it's important to
emphasize that and I've seen alot of those individuals take
the young ones up under theirwings, so it's been nice.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:43):
Can you tell us a little bit about any
qualitative work that you'replanning with incarcerated
students or staff, and how willthese conversations inform your
research or program development?
Joshua Gilliam (17:53):
Although education can be transformative
from a quantitative perspective,because that moves DOC
stakeholders, when they seenumbers, when they see a
reduction in behaviors, whenthey see a reduction in
recidivism, that moves theneedle for them.
But on the flip side of thatcoin, it doesn't tell the whole
story Qualitatively.
I want to demonstrate howtransformational education can
(18:14):
be Underserved populations suchas women in prison, because
there's not a whole lot ofresearch on that and I'd be
curious to know, as a comparisongroup do women value education
more than male prisoners?
That's something that I'mintrigued about.
Do women value education morethan male prisoners?
That's something that I'mintrigued about.
And the only research out thereon women in prisons is that
they are less violent than men,that they commit more property
crimes than they do violentcrimes.
(18:34):
But I think those perspectivesand those experiences can help
shape what best practices looklike for education and
correctional institutions as ajoint collaboration.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (18:44):
Looking ahead what is your vision for the
future of correctionalinstitutions as a joint
collaboration?
Looking ahead what is yourvision for the future of
correctional education?
What kind of policy changes orprogram shifts would you most
like to see in order to makeeducation in prisons more
impactful and accessible?
Joshua Gilliam (18:57):
I think one of the most important things,
because I mean we came out of apandemic there in 2020, and
there was a lot of shortfallsacademically.
There was shortfalls withretention, which has been a very
important topic amongst highered, along with the demographic
cliff of 2025, where studentsaren't coming to college or
millennials didn't have kids,something to that effect.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:17):
A lot of people that are reconsidering
options like do I need to go tocollege?
Is it worth me getting intodebt?
Can I find something else?
Maybe in the trades or so intofarming, there's a shift.
Joshua Gilliam (19:29):
So my vision for correctional education?
We come out of a pandemic wherewe saw a shortfall in
enrollments and retention, whichare pretty important topics
around higher education, alongwith this demographic cliff of
2025, where we don't have anupcoming generation of mass
students coming into college.
My vision for colleges toaddress those shortfalls would
(19:50):
be to collaborate with penalinstitutions to educate the
incarcerated and further addressrecidivism, because it's a
joint collaboration, it's abusiness model at the end of the
day.
So colleges are having theseenrollments, they're having
these seats filled, they're ableto pay their staff adequately
and for the first time in awhile because in 1994, the
Clinton administration enactedthe Violent Crime and Law
(20:13):
Enforcement Act, which strippedPell eligibility for about 30
years it just came available in2023.
I was in DC at a NCHEPconference when that policy was
lifted.
So the importance of thatpolicy shift is that colleges
can certainly address theirenrollment shortfalls and, on
the flip side of that coin,corrections can address
(20:35):
recidivism by offering theseeducational services.
Is there any?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:38):
pushback about offering these programs to
inmates because of cost.
Joshua Gilliam (20:42):
As far as cost goes, I don't, I don't think.
Think there is, because withPell eligibility, you know, an
incarcerated individual istreated no differently than a
student in the community.
So they got 36, I think it, anddon't quote me on this 36
months of Pell eligibility.
Ok, so I mean it's.
I don't want to say freecollege, because there's no such
thing, Right, Right, but that'swhat essentially pays for that.
(21:03):
I think where it gets trickywith the cost is is like the
college has to eat some of themoney and funds in terms of
academic resources being able toprovide whether that's laptops
or whether that's academicresources pens, pencils,
notepads, Chromebooks, you know,if the institution allows
things of that nature.
So really, with thecorrectional institution being
(21:24):
the oversight entity, they'rereally not out cost.
It's more of a joint venturefor them.
Is there anyone that?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:30):
comes back and says like I don't think my
taxes should be paying forincarcerated people to be
getting a college education whenI can't even afford it, or my
kids.
Just wondering if that was partof a conversation that you've
encountered as part of achallenge.
Joshua Gilliam (21:44):
So there's always a point of contention,
always an opposing viewpoint toany topic, and to address that
taxpayer concerns and certainlyI mean rightfully so I can't
argue that statement.
But at the same time, what wehave to consider and look at is
I've seen correctional staff nothave the incentive and that's a
that's a space I would like to.
(22:04):
I was fortunate enough that Idid have a education incentive
that they would pay for highereducation, but there are some
(22:27):
institutions that just don'tallow that and that's where the
difference, where it's like, ohwell, they're getting free
education and I can't theremight be the rub there.
That's where the us versus themmentality comes in,
unfortunately.
But to address you know,overall, your overarching point
of taxpayer, it's cheaper toeducate and to reintegrate than
(22:47):
it is to long term warehouse.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (22:49):
So, for educators and parents listening,
who may never have consideredthe intersection of education
and corrections, what would youlike them to take away from this
conversation?
Joshua Gilliam (22:59):
What I would like for listeners, educators,
stakeholders to glean from thisconversation and other pieces
down the road because I'mcertainly one piece of it, I'm
not all of it is that I wouldurge listeners to think about
how they can improve theircommunities.
We, as part of the UnitedStates, we've tried mandatory
minimum sentencing.
It's resulted in massincarceration.
We've criminalized drugs.
(23:19):
It has resulted in not onlymass incarceration, but
disproportionatelyover-representation of
African-American males in ourprison population, also
additionally impacting ethnicminority groups and disparate
treatment amongst those groups.
We incarcerate more than anyother country in this world.
At some point, theseincarcerated individuals will go
home, possibly be your neighbor, and in that point, as my
(23:42):
research is demonstrating, ifeducation can be transformative,
then we can save money andlives by educating rather than
housing folks in long-termsituations.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (23:53):
Yeah, I'd rather have an educated neighbor
who wants something good withtheir life and has opportunities
for growth and potential to bea benefit to the community, not
a hindrance.
So I think that education woulddefinitely speak to that.
Thank you so much, Joshua, forsharing your time and your
insight and your passion forcorrectional education with us
today.
Your work highlights the powerof education to not only
(24:15):
transform individuals' lives,but to shift institutional
cultures and strengthencommunities.
It's been a pleasure having youon the Brighter Side of
Education.
Joshua Gilliam (24:23):
Thank you so much for the time.
Dr Hasler, Thank you for havingme on, Really enjoyed this
conversation and I certainlyhope your listeners and others
find some value in this dialogue.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (24:32):
Today's conversation sparked your
interest.
I encourage you to learn moreabout prison education programs
in your state or community.
Whether you're an educator, aparent or someone that simply
believes in second chances, yourvoice can support meaningful
change.
Education doesn't just happenin classrooms.
It can happen anywhere.
Hope meets opportunity.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
(24:55):
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at lisa at
drlisahasslercom, or visit mywebsite at wwwdrlisahasslercom
and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
(25:17):
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
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