January 16, 2025 • 23 mins
The episode explores the science and psychology of math anxiety and features innovative educational approaches aimed at transforming math teaching. With a PhD in Mathematics & Computer Sciences, Dr. Aditya Nagrath shares insights on early intervention, preventive strategies to improve students' confidence, and the importance of viewing math as a language. As the creator and founder of Elephant Learning Mathematics Academy, he's on a mission to empower children with mathematics.
• Discussion on the prevalence and impact of math anxiety
• Early intervention strategies in mathematics education
• Teaching math as a language to improve understanding
• The role of gamification in learning mathematics
• Techniques for parents and teachers to recognize and address math anxiety
• Overview of Elephant Learning's unique educational approach
• Information on resources and courses available for educators and parents
To learn more, go to https://www.elephantlearning.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (00:09):
Welcome to the brighter side of education,
research, innovation andresources.
I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
(00:29):
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
student outcomes?
In today's episode, we'rediving deep into the science and
psychology of math andexploring innovative solutions
that are transforming how weteach mathematics.
We'll learn how earlyintervention and modern
approaches are helping studentsbuild confidence in mathematical
(00:50):
mastery from preschool onward.
For people with math anxiety,facing numerical tasks isn't
just difficult, it's painful.
Cognitive scientists atDartmouth found that in people
with high math anxiety, the mereanticipation of doing math led
to increased activity in brainregions associated with threat
detection and the experience ofpain.
(01:10):
Evidence suggests about 20 to25 percent of kids experience
moderate to high levels of mathanxiety, which persist into
adulthood.
That has a direct correlationto math achievement.
This leads to an avoidance ofeveryday situations requiring
math later in life, includingmoney management and even salary
(01:30):
negotiation.
What makes this cycleparticularly challenging to
break is a startling discoveryElementary education students,
our future teachers have thehighest math anxiety levels of
all college majors.
This anxiety manifests insubtle ways, like casual
comments such as let's put awayour math books now and do
(01:52):
something fun, which cansignificantly impact student
learning throughout the entireschool year.
Now, while math anxiety affectspeople across all demographics,
certain patterns emerge inresearch.
Affects people across alldemographics.
Certain patterns emerge inresearch.
Gender is a consistent factor,with girls experiencing higher
rates of math anxiety than boys,partly due to societal
(02:12):
stereotypes that paint math as amasculine domain.
However, the strongestpredictor isn't gender.
It's a student's confidence intheir ability to complete math
tasks.
Psychologists studying thischallenge propose fundamental
changes to math education.
Pilot studies show promisingresults when children learn to
think like mathematicians, whiledeveloping effective study
(02:36):
skills and embracing a growthmindset, which is the
understanding that mathematicalability can be developed through
effort and learning.
Now, with strong mathematicalfoundations, beginning in
preschool time is of the essenceTo explore this further.
I'm excited to welcome DrAditya Nagrath, computer
scientist, mathematician andfounder of Elephant Learning
(02:58):
Mathematics Academy, as authorof the books Rethinking Math
Learning and his latest TreatingMathematics Anxiety.
His work focuses ontransforming mathematics
education through gamificationand child psychology, with
particular attention to helpingstruggling students catch up.
His mission to empower childrenwith mathematics has already
(03:18):
reached 175,000 studentsworldwide and his expertise has
been shared across nearly 100podcasts, dozens of articles and
numerous television appearances.
Dr Nagrath's vision to changethe way the world teaches
mathematics is already makingwaves in education.
Welcome, dr Nagrath.
It's an honor to have you withus on the show today.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (03:39):
Thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (03:41):
So you're a doctor in mathematics and
computer science.
What brought you to study mathanxiety and to create Elephant
Learning Mathematics Academyeight years ago?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (03:51):
Okay, yeah, great.
So we started with creatingElephant Learning, and what it
was was that four out of fivestudents start kindergarten
unprepared for the kindergartencurriculum.
And what that meant was thatthere was this language gap
between what parents thinkcounting to 10 is, and because
multiplication is defined asrepetitive addition and this
(04:31):
student doesn't really getaddition quite as yet.
And so we started ElephantLearning to try to bridge that
gap.
And it turns out that early ageeducation researchers sort of
already know all the activitiesthat a student should do in
order to understand theseconcepts.
And as a mathematician, when youlook at what these activities
are, it's fairly clear that whatwe're doing is we're getting
(04:53):
the student to exhibit the ideaand then we're labeling it.
So, like it's the same way thatthey learn the colors, because
you can't describe a color to astudent, you have to give them
the experience of red, blue,green, right?
You give them that experienceand you're labeling it, and then
they infer In the same way, yougive them that experience with
(05:15):
the quantities and the additionand the subtraction, and now
they start to put it together.
So now, when you have thatconcrete representation in the
student's mind underneath thewritten mathematics, then the
mathematics they experience inclass is actually fun.
You're looking at new ways tosolve problems you're already
familiar with.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (05:31):
Ah, yeah.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (05:31):
But math teachers are always kind of
aware of the fact that 50% ofAmericans have math anxiety.
This started to exhibit in oursystem, so at that point we'd
start to help them and they'drecover.
We turned that into a coachingprogram and wrapped it into a
subscription so that everyparent could benefit from it, as
(05:52):
students may be encounteringany discomfort.
So we have math coaching videoswithin our system and parents
tell us that now my child lovesmath class, and that was the
goal.
Then we wrote it down as a bookso that we could let everybody
know about it and get it out toteachers and administrators in
the schools where we're tryingto go next.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:11):
So now you were just talking about four out
of five kids in ourkindergarten behind in math
skills.
Can you explain what thosespecific math skills are that
children should have learned bykindergarten?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (06:21):
Counting to 10.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:22):
Why are these gaps present and why do you
think they have such lastingeffects?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (06:26):
The difference in understanding of
counting to 10 between mostparents and what the school
means is counting to 10 is thatmost parents?
are good when the child says thenumbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,
9, 10.
Yes, and the school means canyou give me 10 things?
And the student is able toslide over 10 things and stop on
10.
And so that's demonstratingunderstanding of the actual
(06:50):
quantity 10, because they'requote unquote, producing it to
you.
They're giving it to you and soif you don't understand the
teacher and you're not beingheld back, you can get into this
situation where yourunderstanding of numbers is that
of a kindergarten or firstgrader, but you're in third
grade, learning multiplication,right, and it's about the
(07:10):
experiences you're getting inthe world and the language.
And the challenge is is thatwhen you look at the statistics,
they've never really beenawesome.
Right now.
High school proficiency inmathematics at least the 2019
numbers so it's a pre-pandemicnumber was 24%, so it was a 76%
non-proficiency and that numberis going down.
(07:32):
So all the news reports arealways it's going down, it's
going down, it's going down.
And again this boils down to doyou understand the teacher in
the classroom?
And when you're talking aboutthe fundamentals, we lose most
students at fractions, decimalsand percentages, and those are
just three different systems ofspeaking about the same idea.
So we're losing them there.
(07:53):
But then you add in a variableand this is what I memorized my
multiplication tables.
But seven times X wasn't onthere.
And so if you keep adding oncomplexity to something that
someone doesn't understand, theyget to a point where they say
I'm never going to get this, andthen that's complete failure.
That's the setting in of themath anxiety.
(08:14):
I'm just not going to do it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:15):
Right, I'm not good at math, and I hear that a
lot.
I hear in the classroom peoplewould say I'm really good at
reading, I'm not really good atmath, I don't have a math brain.
Or some kids would say, well,I'm not really good at reading,
but I'm really good at math.
And so at a very young agesomehow they start setting into
this finite thing I'm eithergood or I'm bad at.
(08:35):
So what age and skill rangedoes elephant learning focus on?
Can you walk us through how itworks and what makes it
different than other mathprograms?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (08:50):
Well, ok, so like we focus on teaching
mathematics as a language wecover from counting through
algebra, so like that's thethird grade reading equivalent
for mathematics.
Because when you get toanything that's a financial text
, a statistical text, scientifictext you're going to face
variables, you're going to haveequations.
So like, if you don'tunderstand algebra and what the
goal is of algebra, you're notgoing to get these other things.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (09:10):
So you're starting at?
Does it start at kindergarten,preschool, Is there?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (09:14):
an age, yeah , yeah, counting, so like
literally counting to five, andit's basically what you would
expect it to be.
So it's the thing that youwould be doing as a parent.
Here's three things, right,like can you recognize three?
Click on three.
How many fingers am I holdingup?
How many things do I have?
Can you give me right?
So it's like one to five, fiveto 10.
(09:34):
The transition to the teens,which is a big deal because this
is the first time a studentseeing two characters next to
each other, means something more, and it's not uncommon for us
to see four-year-olds get intomultiplication division.
We've seen some get intofractions.
They'll just keep going becausethey don't know this is
advanced mathematics.
They're curious and they'resolving the problems.
(09:55):
And then, on the other side,we've seen 12-year-olds coming
in testing at the third gradelevel, catching up to their age,
and that parent's telling usthey love math class now and
they're enjoying, and so this isthe main thing.
So the main thing to combat themathematics anxiety is you have
to believe that the student cando it and you have to tell them
that you believe they can do it.
Doing both out loud causes twocommitments to be made.
(10:18):
The first is you've made acommitment to the student that
I'm going to be here until youdo it, and I believe you can do
it.
But the second is is if theystay with you, then that means
that they too believe they cando it.
So you've got them right.
And then after that, the booktalks about a lot of techniques
that you can be using to helpthe students.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:37):
Is it a computer based program where
someone has to have a desktop,or can you have an app?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (10:42):
So we run in Chrome and Safari.
We were basically designed torun everywhere, okay.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:47):
You partnered with Step Up for Students in
Florida just recently.
I was really excited that itwas available for the students
through their schools.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (10:55):
Yeah, we've been working with Step Up for
almost a year.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:58):
And it's different because it teaches
math as a language.
Is that where it's so verydifferent?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (11:04):
So we're not trying to do the fluency thing.
You're not going to see thingswhere it's like what's five plus
four?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:09):
What's right Like what's three?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (11:10):
times seven.
Like, okay, there's so manythings out there and they're
free, so if you want them to getspeedier, you could get one of
those.
You can make them do that for10 minutes a day and they will
get better, right?
So like we're focusing on thehard part, and then the thing
that really sets us apart isthat we have these adaptive
algorithms that really keep pacewith the student at a better
rate, and so it's hard to go outthere and say, hey, this is a
(11:34):
big differentiator, but it'strue.
And finally, it was created byPhDs in mathematics.
It wasn't just me, it wasanother professor in mathematics
and our only goal is to ensurethat children come out.
So like we focused on just theessential topics with the goal
of can we just get a student tounderstand the teacher in the
(11:54):
classroom if they want to speakwith them?
So like, if you have afour-year-old that does get to
fractions, decimals andpercentages, sure like, maybe
they'll get into a gifted,talented program, maybe not,
right, they don't have all thepieces necessarily.
Like that the school wouldteach we're not doing time,
we're not doing measurements.
It's like, if I can teach youfractions, then you can
understand measurements, but ifyou don't understand fractions,
(12:16):
then measurements is really hardbecause it's another abstract
topic on top of an abstracttopic.
And so then this opens the doorbecause, like, theoretically
speaking, I could speak with mystudent about fractions,
decimals and percentages.
I could take them into thekitchen, I could get measuring
tapes and stuff.
Or, theoretically, you couldput them in Kumon and say could
you work with them at that level, while the school works with
(12:37):
them at the lower level?
It just opens up these optionsthat weren't there before.
And at least with my child, Isee increased curiosity because
he's able to read these books,because he's like, oh, I want to
be a scientist, right, but he'sable to read these books.
And that's the thing is thatthese books have like, oh, could
you put a half cup of waterright for this experiment?
(12:57):
The problem with science isthat it's mathematically based.
If you can't measure it, thenyeah, you don't really have
proof that it works.
And as soon as you get intomeasurements, you don't really
have proof that it works.
And as soon as you get intomeasurements, you're talking
math, you're talking statistics,you're talking are you
measuring the right thing?
What do the numbers mean?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:16):
That's why a lot of physicists and
mathematics are kind of the samecircles.
That makes a lot of sense.
Does your program supportstudents with disabilities like
dyscalculia, speakers of otherlanguages?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (13:26):
We've seen success with students from all
backgrounds and we honor theguarantee, so like if we don't
ask the disposition of thestudent at signup and our
coaches are willing to help.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:35):
That's amazing .
Your research has been cited byHarvard and Yale.
What kind of impact has yourprogram had and what are your
goals for the future?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (13:43):
So we've seen over 175,000 students
complete our placement exam.
That means that they came intothe system and they got placed.
So we start out if thestudent's older than five,
because if they're under five,mainly, they're typically
counting.
That's typically where they'regoing to start, but if they're
older than five we got to findtheir level.
So this placement exam wasdesigned to start behind them
(14:05):
and catch up.
The experiences are delivered asa puzzle game, so the idea is
like angry birds, but for math,right.
So like the characters aren'ttrying to take away from the
puzzle, they're just trying tobe the object that you're
counting or that's representingwhat's happening.
And it's like think of abasketball hoop.
We're like moving it up a footat a time and then, once the
ball's no longer going in, we'relike, oh, let's go back down a
(14:31):
little bit.
So they get the ball in and nowwe start kind of inching up
from there.
So it's like these complicatedalgorithms, because we've got
these complicated maps of how dothese ideas fit together.
Right, you have to learnaddition before you learn
multiplication.
But like we're doing it at amore granular level.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:40):
Love it Now.
Your recent book TreatingMathematics Anxiety discusses
the psychology of math anxiety.
What does your research revealabout its causes and effects?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (14:50):
Sure, okay, when you're talking about like,
let's just talk about like an AIsystem because it's fun, right,
okay.
So they modeled this after whatthey thought the human brain
would look like, but abstractly,like, if you just move up high
enough, what it is is a set ofinputs, a set of outputs, right,
and a function.
But then there's also thistraining function.
(15:11):
What happens is you cycle theinputs through the function.
The training function starts toalter the function so that the
inputs go to the output.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:19):
So a concrete example you have a bunch of
images of household items andthen the outputs, the name right
.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (15:25):
So like oven refrigerator, you get it all to
match up and you cycle itthrough and it keeps training.
The function and then the hopeis is that, like the continuity
of F allows similar inputs togive you similar outputs.
So it sees a different oven, itstill recognizes it as an oven.
You see what I'm saying.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:42):
Yes.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (15:43):
Okay, so like if you take this and you
philosophically put it back tothe human being.
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent systems, obviously,
but the first system, the inputsystem, appears to be your
experiences, your five senses,right?
So that's coming together andthe output would be the meaning
that you're adding to thatexperience.
You see an oven.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:04):
you think that's an oven.
Yes, it's almost the same thing.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (16:08):
But here's the difference between us and
the AI we assign the meaning,right, we gave it the inputs.
We gave it the outputs.
We told it to train, okay.
So now, when you're looking atthe human being and you're
looking at something likemathematics or basketball right,
any endeavor, karate, piano itboils down to their belief
system, boils down to themeanings that they're adding to
(16:28):
the events, and that boils downto I can do this or I can't do
this.
And so the coaching program isyou have to believe that the
student can do it.
And then you have to meet themat their level of understanding,
because if you meet them higher, they cease to believe that
they can do it, even if youcontinue to say that you believe
they can do it.
But if you believe they can doit and then meet them at their
(16:48):
level of understanding, well,now you can build them up and
you can reward them for thesuccess.
And exactly what elephantlearning was designed to do.
We put a one number metriccalled the elephant age.
We graph it.
It always moves from bottomleft to top right.
It was engineered that waybecause as they close milestones
, we average the highest fiveages on those milestones.
(17:08):
And so like guess what Afteryou've got five, it only goes up
because as you pass milestones,so like guess what, After
you've got five, it only goes upbecause as you pass milestones
can't change the top five, youcan only make it larger.
The students see that and theysee success.
And then on top of that itmatches.
So your six-year-old in thesystem, your elephant age six,
is roughly working on addition,your elephant age nine is
working on multiplicationdivision and the parent, the
(17:29):
student, see the age matches thecontent and the progress.
And the parent, the student,see the age matches the content
and the progress.
And as they see that progressthey continue to believe they
can do it.
And then mathematics anxiety isnever a thing they can do it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:39):
So what do you mean by elephant age?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (17:41):
So that's the average age that a student
outside of the system is doingthe same mathematics as your
student.
Okay, so now you can see thatprogress and so that's what I
mean it's like that six-year-oldis working on addition, that
nine-year-old is working onmultiplication at elephant age,
right, so like you can see yourstudent moving and it matches
what you kind of expect from thereal world.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (18:01):
Oh, I like that.
How can parents and teachersrecognize signs of math anxiety,
and what kind of strategies canyou recommend?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (18:09):
If your student has math anxiety,
they're typically avoidant,don't want to do homework.
One of the main things that youcould tell someone is like this
basketball analogy so math andbasketball are similar.
That, like when the ball goesin the hoop, everyone can see it
.
So like the ball goes in thehoop in math, someone can look
and they can see it.
If it doesn't go in, they knowit and same right.
(18:30):
Yeah, so like where they're notthe same and where they're the
same.
There's a lot of differentthings that, like from a
coaching perspective, you can doto help your student.
For example, one place wherethey're not the same is that
there is no way for the coach toshoot for the student.
Right, we can give them pointers, but it's always the student
shooting.
Well, in math that's not alwaystrue.
And here's the thing.
(18:51):
If I go back to basketball andI think, like if there was some
way that the coach could shootsomehow for the player, if they
could just affect the trajectoryof the ball in any way, well,
that basketball player would notbelieve that they could play
basketball.
They believe that the coachcould play basketball pretty
well.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:06):
They're like I can't do it by myself.
I can do it maybe with help,but not independently.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (19:14):
That's right and so like this is, then one
of those things is like you gotto let the student take
authentic shots.
They have to believe they cando it.
If you're always stepping inwith the procedure, if you're
always stepping in with ananswer, if you're always
stepping well, in that casethey're going to believe they
need that right.
It's true.
Now I'm not saying it's harmfulto step in every now and then
with the procedure.
I'm saying if you always do it,then that's what they're going
(19:34):
to believe.
Right Now we recommend that youtalk with the student.
You find out what is themisunderstanding.
But then the techniques talkedabout in our book.
Those are mainly emotionaltechniques, Like my students
blowing up.
What should I do?
Okay, well, if they wereblowing up on the basketball
court, I might say let's take abreak, let's go get some
Gatorade, put some sugar andwater in you, let's see if we
get you hydrated and likethinking again, do you calm down
(19:56):
?
And then something called thegray rock.
You just don't respond to it atall, you show no emotion, they
flip out and you're like nextshot, All right, you got this.
And then there's a lot oftechniques for validating
emotions and, theoreticallyspeaking, if you can get them to
say the emotion out loud, theycould recognize it.
Now they've freed themselves.
And that is then what we meanby empowering children with
(20:16):
mathematics.
That's our mission.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:18):
And you developed a course to complement
your book on math anxiety.
Can you talk about who thecourse is designed for and what
the participants can expect tolearn?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (20:29):
Sure, so this is for everyone.
It's just a introductory course.
It's about 30 minutes of videowith some exercises.
We're going to put together amore comprehensive course for
specifically teachers forprofessional development.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:41):
Yay, well, I joined the course and I went
through it, and so I've heardyour basketball analogies before
, but I love how you bring thosetwo together.
Thank you so much for sharingyour insights on math anxiety
and your vision for transformingmathematics education.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (20:57):
I appreciate you.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, if you want to learn moreabout elephant learning, why
don't you come toelephantlearningcom?
The book's on there too, butyou can find the book on Amazon.
It's probably better fromAmazon.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:07):
But if you buy it from our, website.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (21:10):
I'll probably sign it.
It'll probably come out of thisoffice here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:13):
All right, well, thanks so much.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (21:14):
Thank you.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:16):
If you know a student, parent or teacher
struggling with math anxiety,share this episode with them.
Your simple act of sharingcould be the first step towards
transforming someone'srelationship with mathematics.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at lisa at
drlisahasslercom, or visit mywebsite at wwwdrlisahasslercom
(21:41):
and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
(22:01):
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
Welcome to the brighter side of education,
research, innovation andresources.
I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
(00:29):
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
student outcomes?
In today's episode, we'rediving deep into the science and
psychology of math andexploring innovative solutions
that are transforming how weteach mathematics.
We'll learn how earlyintervention and modern
approaches are helping studentsbuild confidence in mathematical
(00:50):
mastery from preschool onward.
For people with math anxiety,facing numerical tasks isn't
just difficult, it's painful.
Cognitive scientists atDartmouth found that in people
with high math anxiety, the mereanticipation of doing math led
to increased activity in brainregions associated with threat
detection and the experience ofpain.
(01:10):
Evidence suggests about 20 to25 percent of kids experience
moderate to high levels of mathanxiety, which persist into
adulthood.
That has a direct correlationto math achievement.
This leads to an avoidance ofeveryday situations requiring
math later in life, includingmoney management and even salary
(01:30):
negotiation.
What makes this cycleparticularly challenging to
break is a startling discoveryElementary education students,
our future teachers have thehighest math anxiety levels of
all college majors.
This anxiety manifests insubtle ways, like casual
comments such as let's put awayour math books now and do
(01:52):
something fun, which cansignificantly impact student
learning throughout the entireschool year.
Now, while math anxiety affectspeople across all demographics,
certain patterns emerge inresearch.
Affects people across alldemographics.
Certain patterns emerge inresearch.
Gender is a consistent factor,with girls experiencing higher
rates of math anxiety than boys,partly due to societal
(02:12):
stereotypes that paint math as amasculine domain.
However, the strongestpredictor isn't gender.
It's a student's confidence intheir ability to complete math
tasks.
Psychologists studying thischallenge propose fundamental
changes to math education.
Pilot studies show promisingresults when children learn to
think like mathematicians, whiledeveloping effective study
(02:36):
skills and embracing a growthmindset, which is the
understanding that mathematicalability can be developed through
effort and learning.
Now, with strong mathematicalfoundations, beginning in
preschool time is of the essenceTo explore this further.
I'm excited to welcome DrAditya Nagrath, computer
scientist, mathematician andfounder of Elephant Learning
(02:58):
Mathematics Academy, as authorof the books Rethinking Math
Learning and his latest TreatingMathematics Anxiety.
His work focuses ontransforming mathematics
education through gamificationand child psychology, with
particular attention to helpingstruggling students catch up.
His mission to empower childrenwith mathematics has already
(03:18):
reached 175,000 studentsworldwide and his expertise has
been shared across nearly 100podcasts, dozens of articles and
numerous television appearances.
Dr Nagrath's vision to changethe way the world teaches
mathematics is already makingwaves in education.
Welcome, dr Nagrath.
It's an honor to have you withus on the show today.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (03:39):
Thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (03:41):
So you're a doctor in mathematics and
computer science.
What brought you to study mathanxiety and to create Elephant
Learning Mathematics Academyeight years ago?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (03:51):
Okay, yeah, great.
So we started with creatingElephant Learning, and what it
was was that four out of fivestudents start kindergarten
unprepared for the kindergartencurriculum.
And what that meant was thatthere was this language gap
between what parents thinkcounting to 10 is, and because
multiplication is defined asrepetitive addition and this
(04:31):
student doesn't really getaddition quite as yet.
And so we started ElephantLearning to try to bridge that
gap.
And it turns out that early ageeducation researchers sort of
already know all the activitiesthat a student should do in
order to understand theseconcepts.
And as a mathematician, when youlook at what these activities
are, it's fairly clear that whatwe're doing is we're getting
(04:53):
the student to exhibit the ideaand then we're labeling it.
So, like it's the same way thatthey learn the colors, because
you can't describe a color to astudent, you have to give them
the experience of red, blue,green, right?
You give them that experienceand you're labeling it, and then
they infer In the same way, yougive them that experience with
(05:15):
the quantities and the additionand the subtraction, and now
they start to put it together.
So now, when you have thatconcrete representation in the
student's mind underneath thewritten mathematics, then the
mathematics they experience inclass is actually fun.
You're looking at new ways tosolve problems you're already
familiar with.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (05:31):
Ah, yeah.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (05:31):
But math teachers are always kind of
aware of the fact that 50% ofAmericans have math anxiety.
This started to exhibit in oursystem, so at that point we'd
start to help them and they'drecover.
We turned that into a coachingprogram and wrapped it into a
subscription so that everyparent could benefit from it, as
(05:52):
students may be encounteringany discomfort.
So we have math coaching videoswithin our system and parents
tell us that now my child lovesmath class, and that was the
goal.
Then we wrote it down as a bookso that we could let everybody
know about it and get it out toteachers and administrators in
the schools where we're tryingto go next.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:11):
So now you were just talking about four out
of five kids in ourkindergarten behind in math
skills.
Can you explain what thosespecific math skills are that
children should have learned bykindergarten?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (06:21):
Counting to 10.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:22):
Why are these gaps present and why do you
think they have such lastingeffects?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (06:26):
The difference in understanding of
counting to 10 between mostparents and what the school
means is counting to 10 is thatmost parents?
are good when the child says thenumbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,
9, 10.
Yes, and the school means canyou give me 10 things?
And the student is able toslide over 10 things and stop on
10.
And so that's demonstratingunderstanding of the actual
(06:50):
quantity 10, because they'requote unquote, producing it to
you.
They're giving it to you and soif you don't understand the
teacher and you're not beingheld back, you can get into this
situation where yourunderstanding of numbers is that
of a kindergarten or firstgrader, but you're in third
grade, learning multiplication,right, and it's about the
(07:10):
experiences you're getting inthe world and the language.
And the challenge is is thatwhen you look at the statistics,
they've never really beenawesome.
Right now.
High school proficiency inmathematics at least the 2019
numbers so it's a pre-pandemicnumber was 24%, so it was a 76%
non-proficiency and that numberis going down.
(07:32):
So all the news reports arealways it's going down, it's
going down, it's going down.
And again this boils down to doyou understand the teacher in
the classroom?
And when you're talking aboutthe fundamentals, we lose most
students at fractions, decimalsand percentages, and those are
just three different systems ofspeaking about the same idea.
So we're losing them there.
(07:53):
But then you add in a variableand this is what I memorized my
multiplication tables.
But seven times X wasn't onthere.
And so if you keep adding oncomplexity to something that
someone doesn't understand, theyget to a point where they say
I'm never going to get this, andthen that's complete failure.
That's the setting in of themath anxiety.
(08:14):
I'm just not going to do it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:15):
Right, I'm not good at math, and I hear that a
lot.
I hear in the classroom peoplewould say I'm really good at
reading, I'm not really good atmath, I don't have a math brain.
Or some kids would say, well,I'm not really good at reading,
but I'm really good at math.
And so at a very young agesomehow they start setting into
this finite thing I'm eithergood or I'm bad at.
(08:35):
So what age and skill rangedoes elephant learning focus on?
Can you walk us through how itworks and what makes it
different than other mathprograms?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (08:50):
Well, ok, so like we focus on teaching
mathematics as a language wecover from counting through
algebra, so like that's thethird grade reading equivalent
for mathematics.
Because when you get toanything that's a financial text
, a statistical text, scientifictext you're going to face
variables, you're going to haveequations.
So like, if you don'tunderstand algebra and what the
goal is of algebra, you're notgoing to get these other things.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (09:10):
So you're starting at?
Does it start at kindergarten,preschool, Is there?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (09:14):
an age, yeah , yeah, counting, so like
literally counting to five, andit's basically what you would
expect it to be.
So it's the thing that youwould be doing as a parent.
Here's three things, right,like can you recognize three?
Click on three.
How many fingers am I holdingup?
How many things do I have?
Can you give me right?
So it's like one to five, fiveto 10.
(09:34):
The transition to the teens,which is a big deal because this
is the first time a studentseeing two characters next to
each other, means something more, and it's not uncommon for us
to see four-year-olds get intomultiplication division.
We've seen some get intofractions.
They'll just keep going becausethey don't know this is
advanced mathematics.
They're curious and they'resolving the problems.
(09:55):
And then, on the other side,we've seen 12-year-olds coming
in testing at the third gradelevel, catching up to their age,
and that parent's telling usthey love math class now and
they're enjoying, and so this isthe main thing.
So the main thing to combat themathematics anxiety is you have
to believe that the student cando it and you have to tell them
that you believe they can do it.
Doing both out loud causes twocommitments to be made.
(10:18):
The first is you've made acommitment to the student that
I'm going to be here until youdo it, and I believe you can do
it.
But the second is is if theystay with you, then that means
that they too believe they cando it.
So you've got them right.
And then after that, the booktalks about a lot of techniques
that you can be using to helpthe students.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:37):
Is it a computer based program where
someone has to have a desktop,or can you have an app?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (10:42):
So we run in Chrome and Safari.
We were basically designed torun everywhere, okay.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:47):
You partnered with Step Up for Students in
Florida just recently.
I was really excited that itwas available for the students
through their schools.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (10:55):
Yeah, we've been working with Step Up for
almost a year.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:58):
And it's different because it teaches
math as a language.
Is that where it's so verydifferent?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (11:04):
So we're not trying to do the fluency thing.
You're not going to see thingswhere it's like what's five plus
four?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:09):
What's right Like what's three?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (11:10):
times seven.
Like, okay, there's so manythings out there and they're
free, so if you want them to getspeedier, you could get one of
those.
You can make them do that for10 minutes a day and they will
get better, right?
So like we're focusing on thehard part, and then the thing
that really sets us apart isthat we have these adaptive
algorithms that really keep pacewith the student at a better
rate, and so it's hard to go outthere and say, hey, this is a
(11:34):
big differentiator, but it'strue.
And finally, it was created byPhDs in mathematics.
It wasn't just me, it wasanother professor in mathematics
and our only goal is to ensurethat children come out.
So like we focused on just theessential topics with the goal
of can we just get a student tounderstand the teacher in the
(11:54):
classroom if they want to speakwith them?
So like, if you have afour-year-old that does get to
fractions, decimals andpercentages, sure like, maybe
they'll get into a gifted,talented program, maybe not,
right, they don't have all thepieces necessarily.
Like that the school wouldteach we're not doing time,
we're not doing measurements.
It's like, if I can teach youfractions, then you can
understand measurements, but ifyou don't understand fractions,
(12:16):
then measurements is really hardbecause it's another abstract
topic on top of an abstracttopic.
And so then this opens the doorbecause, like, theoretically
speaking, I could speak with mystudent about fractions,
decimals and percentages.
I could take them into thekitchen, I could get measuring
tapes and stuff.
Or, theoretically, you couldput them in Kumon and say could
you work with them at that level, while the school works with
(12:37):
them at the lower level?
It just opens up these optionsthat weren't there before.
And at least with my child, Isee increased curiosity because
he's able to read these books,because he's like, oh, I want to
be a scientist, right, but he'sable to read these books.
And that's the thing is thatthese books have like, oh, could
you put a half cup of waterright for this experiment?
(12:57):
The problem with science isthat it's mathematically based.
If you can't measure it, thenyeah, you don't really have
proof that it works.
And as soon as you get intomeasurements, you don't really
have proof that it works.
And as soon as you get intomeasurements, you're talking
math, you're talking statistics,you're talking are you
measuring the right thing?
What do the numbers mean?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:16):
That's why a lot of physicists and
mathematics are kind of the samecircles.
That makes a lot of sense.
Does your program supportstudents with disabilities like
dyscalculia, speakers of otherlanguages?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (13:26):
We've seen success with students from all
backgrounds and we honor theguarantee, so like if we don't
ask the disposition of thestudent at signup and our
coaches are willing to help.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:35):
That's amazing .
Your research has been cited byHarvard and Yale.
What kind of impact has yourprogram had and what are your
goals for the future?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (13:43):
So we've seen over 175,000 students
complete our placement exam.
That means that they came intothe system and they got placed.
So we start out if thestudent's older than five,
because if they're under five,mainly, they're typically
counting.
That's typically where they'regoing to start, but if they're
older than five we got to findtheir level.
So this placement exam wasdesigned to start behind them
(14:05):
and catch up.
The experiences are delivered asa puzzle game, so the idea is
like angry birds, but for math,right.
So like the characters aren'ttrying to take away from the
puzzle, they're just trying tobe the object that you're
counting or that's representingwhat's happening.
And it's like think of abasketball hoop.
We're like moving it up a footat a time and then, once the
ball's no longer going in, we'relike, oh, let's go back down a
(14:31):
little bit.
So they get the ball in and nowwe start kind of inching up
from there.
So it's like these complicatedalgorithms, because we've got
these complicated maps of how dothese ideas fit together.
Right, you have to learnaddition before you learn
multiplication.
But like we're doing it at amore granular level.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:40):
Love it Now.
Your recent book TreatingMathematics Anxiety discusses
the psychology of math anxiety.
What does your research revealabout its causes and effects?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (14:50):
Sure, okay, when you're talking about like,
let's just talk about like an AIsystem because it's fun, right,
okay.
So they modeled this after whatthey thought the human brain
would look like, but abstractly,like, if you just move up high
enough, what it is is a set ofinputs, a set of outputs, right,
and a function.
But then there's also thistraining function.
(15:11):
What happens is you cycle theinputs through the function.
The training function starts toalter the function so that the
inputs go to the output.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:19):
So a concrete example you have a bunch of
images of household items andthen the outputs, the name right
.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (15:25):
So like oven refrigerator, you get it all to
match up and you cycle itthrough and it keeps training.
The function and then the hopeis is that, like the continuity
of F allows similar inputs togive you similar outputs.
So it sees a different oven, itstill recognizes it as an oven.
You see what I'm saying.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (15:42):
Yes.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (15:43):
Okay, so like if you take this and you
philosophically put it back tothe human being.
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent systems, obviously,
but the first system, the inputsystem, appears to be your
experiences, your five senses,right?
So that's coming together andthe output would be the meaning
that you're adding to thatexperience.
You see an oven.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:04):
you think that's an oven.
Yes, it's almost the same thing.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (16:08):
But here's the difference between us and
the AI we assign the meaning,right, we gave it the inputs.
We gave it the outputs.
We told it to train, okay.
So now, when you're looking atthe human being and you're
looking at something likemathematics or basketball right,
any endeavor, karate, piano itboils down to their belief
system, boils down to themeanings that they're adding to
(16:28):
the events, and that boils downto I can do this or I can't do
this.
And so the coaching program isyou have to believe that the
student can do it.
And then you have to meet themat their level of understanding,
because if you meet them higher, they cease to believe that
they can do it, even if youcontinue to say that you believe
they can do it.
But if you believe they can doit and then meet them at their
(16:48):
level of understanding, well,now you can build them up and
you can reward them for thesuccess.
And exactly what elephantlearning was designed to do.
We put a one number metriccalled the elephant age.
We graph it.
It always moves from bottomleft to top right.
It was engineered that waybecause as they close milestones
, we average the highest fiveages on those milestones.
(17:08):
And so like guess what Afteryou've got five, it only goes up
because as you pass milestones,so like guess what, After
you've got five, it only goes upbecause as you pass milestones
can't change the top five, youcan only make it larger.
The students see that and theysee success.
And then on top of that itmatches.
So your six-year-old in thesystem, your elephant age six,
is roughly working on addition,your elephant age nine is
working on multiplicationdivision and the parent, the
(17:29):
student, see the age matches thecontent and the progress.
And the parent, the student,see the age matches the content
and the progress.
And as they see that progressthey continue to believe they
can do it.
And then mathematics anxiety isnever a thing they can do it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:39):
So what do you mean by elephant age?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (17:41):
So that's the average age that a student
outside of the system is doingthe same mathematics as your
student.
Okay, so now you can see thatprogress and so that's what I
mean it's like that six-year-oldis working on addition, that
nine-year-old is working onmultiplication at elephant age,
right, so like you can see yourstudent moving and it matches
what you kind of expect from thereal world.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (18:01):
Oh, I like that.
How can parents and teachersrecognize signs of math anxiety,
and what kind of strategies canyou recommend?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (18:09):
If your student has math anxiety,
they're typically avoidant,don't want to do homework.
One of the main things that youcould tell someone is like this
basketball analogy so math andbasketball are similar.
That, like when the ball goesin the hoop, everyone can see it
.
So like the ball goes in thehoop in math, someone can look
and they can see it.
If it doesn't go in, they knowit and same right.
(18:30):
Yeah, so like where they're notthe same and where they're the
same.
There's a lot of differentthings that, like from a
coaching perspective, you can doto help your student.
For example, one place wherethey're not the same is that
there is no way for the coach toshoot for the student.
Right, we can give them pointers, but it's always the student
shooting.
Well, in math that's not alwaystrue.
And here's the thing.
(18:51):
If I go back to basketball andI think, like if there was some
way that the coach could shootsomehow for the player, if they
could just affect the trajectoryof the ball in any way, well,
that basketball player would notbelieve that they could play
basketball.
They believe that the coachcould play basketball pretty
well.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:06):
They're like I can't do it by myself.
I can do it maybe with help,but not independently.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (19:14):
That's right and so like this is, then one
of those things is like you gotto let the student take
authentic shots.
They have to believe they cando it.
If you're always stepping inwith the procedure, if you're
always stepping in with ananswer, if you're always
stepping well, in that casethey're going to believe they
need that right.
It's true.
Now I'm not saying it's harmfulto step in every now and then
with the procedure.
I'm saying if you always do it,then that's what they're going
(19:34):
to believe.
Right Now we recommend that youtalk with the student.
You find out what is themisunderstanding.
But then the techniques talkedabout in our book.
Those are mainly emotionaltechniques, Like my students
blowing up.
What should I do?
Okay, well, if they wereblowing up on the basketball
court, I might say let's take abreak, let's go get some
Gatorade, put some sugar andwater in you, let's see if we
get you hydrated and likethinking again, do you calm down
(19:56):
?
And then something called thegray rock.
You just don't respond to it atall, you show no emotion, they
flip out and you're like nextshot, All right, you got this.
And then there's a lot oftechniques for validating
emotions and, theoreticallyspeaking, if you can get them to
say the emotion out loud, theycould recognize it.
Now they've freed themselves.
And that is then what we meanby empowering children with
(20:16):
mathematics.
That's our mission.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:18):
And you developed a course to complement
your book on math anxiety.
Can you talk about who thecourse is designed for and what
the participants can expect tolearn?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (20:29):
Sure, so this is for everyone.
It's just a introductory course.
It's about 30 minutes of videowith some exercises.
We're going to put together amore comprehensive course for
specifically teachers forprofessional development.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (20:41):
Yay, well, I joined the course and I went
through it, and so I've heardyour basketball analogies before
, but I love how you bring thosetwo together.
Thank you so much for sharingyour insights on math anxiety
and your vision for transformingmathematics education.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (20:57):
I appreciate you.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, if you want to learn moreabout elephant learning, why
don't you come toelephantlearningcom?
The book's on there too, butyou can find the book on Amazon.
It's probably better fromAmazon.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:07):
But if you buy it from our, website.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (21:10):
I'll probably sign it.
It'll probably come out of thisoffice here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:13):
All right, well, thanks so much.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath (21:14):
Thank you.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:16):
If you know a student, parent or teacher
struggling with math anxiety,share this episode with them.
Your simple act of sharingcould be the first step towards
transforming someone'srelationship with mathematics.
If you have a story aboutwhat's working in your schools
that you'd like to share, youcan email me at lisa at
drlisahasslercom, or visit mywebsite at wwwdrlisahasslercom
(21:41):
and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
(22:01):
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
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