August 14, 2025 • 19 mins
Curriculum doesn’t start in the classroom—it starts in the knowledge system: the people, institutions, and practices that produce and disseminate research. Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto, a Tom and Marie Patton Professor and School Chair from the School of Public Policy at Georgia Tech, explains how publishing and citation practices flow into standards and textbooks.
Dr. Sugimoto highlights the systemic barriers faced by women and underrepresented minorities in academia and how these barriers affect what is taught in classrooms. The discussion also covers the need to redefine success in academia and the importance of inclusive curricula that reflect diverse perspectives. Finally, Dr. Sugimoto encourages educators to foster inquiry-based learning by shifting the focus from what students learn to the questions they ask.
Takeaways
- A knowledge system is the ecosystem in which knowledge is made.
- The lack of women and minorities in academia affects knowledge production.
- Representation in science influences girls' interest in STEM fields.
- Words used by educators can significantly impact students' self-perception.
- Success metrics in academia often exclude diverse perspectives.
- Diversity in research leads to more comprehensive knowledge.
- AI-generated materials can perpetuate stereotypes.
- Educators should recognize biases in the materials they use.
- Encouraging questions fosters a sense of inquiry in students.
- Education is influenced by broader societal knowledge systems.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (00:00):
When we think about improving education, we
often think about classroomstrategies, technology or
testing.
But what if the story beginslong before the lesson plan is
even written?
What if the biggest influenceon what we teach starts with who
gets to create the knowledge?
Welcome to the brighter side ofeducation, research, innovation
(00:29):
and resources.
I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
(00:49):
student outcomes?
Every curriculum, whether inelementary school, high school
or at a university, is built onpublished knowledge.
The research we include, thevoices we cite and the
discoveries we teach all reflectchoices made far up the stream
in academia.
But not everybody has an equalchance to be heard in those
systems.
Studies show that women andscholars from less
(01:11):
representative backgrounds areoften published less, cited less
and funded less.
These patterns don't justaffect the researchers.
They influence what ends up inthe classrooms and our training
programs.
Today's guest, Dr.
Cassidy Sugimoto, helps usunderstand how these knowledge
systems work and how we can makethem more inclusive and
representative.
She is the Tom and Marie PattonProfessor and School Chair in
(01:34):
the School of Public Policy atGeorgia Institute of Technology.
A leading expert in knowledgesystems, her research focuses on
how knowledge is produced,shared and supported, with a
focus on inclusion andaccessibility.
Formerly a professor at IndianaUniversity and a program
director at the National ScienceFoundation, dr Sugimoto's
(01:55):
groundbreaking work istransforming the landscape of
academia and research.
Good morning, dr CassidySugimoto, and welcome to the
show.
Thanks for having me.
Just to start us off, can youexplain what a knowledge system
is and why it matters in theworld of education?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (02:12):
Absolutely A knowledge system is the
ecosystem in which knowledge ismade, so it's composed of
scholars and scholarlyinstitutions, as well as the
practices that guide howknowledge is produced, supported
and disseminated.
The practices that guide howknowledge is produced, supported
and disseminated.
Everything someone learns inschool, whether grade school,
college or graduate school, is aproduct of this knowledge
system.
All the content we learn, allthe teachers we learn from, even
(02:34):
the practices that we follow,like the scientific method, come
out of this system.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (02:42):
So when you think about decisions that are
made in academia, like who getspublished and cited and how they
end up shaping what studentsare learning in the classrooms,
how are those decisions made?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (02:48):
It's a great question, and so when we
think about who gets to producescience, it has massive
ramifications on what we learnin the classroom and how
students feel about themselvesas learners as well.
So the lack of women and otherunderrepresented minorities has
incredibly strong impacts uponwhat knowledge is generated and
therefore the type of knowledgethat goes into instruction.
(03:10):
So, for example, women are 47%more likely to be seriously
injured in a car crash.
Now, why is this?
It wasn't until the early 2000sthat a female-typed crash dummy
was introduced, and she wasjust a scaled down version of a
male crash dummy, and she wasplaced at 108 pounds and only
four foot and 11 inches tall.
(03:30):
Now, I don't know about you,but I don't meet those
specifications, and 95% of womenin the United States do not
meet those specifications.
So we weren't testing cars forhow women actually sat in them,
and the crash dummy was onlyplaced in the passenger seat.
So if a woman was outside ofthose specifications, or driving
the car, or driving the carwhile pregnant, it wasn't made
(03:51):
to support them, and one of thearguments for this is that there
are very few women engineers.
This is one of the fields withthe lowest representation of
women.
Therefore, women's issuesaren't at the forefront of
research and design, and we seesimilar things in biomedicine.
The lack of sex analysis andpharmaceutical testing has led
to significant adverse effectsfor women.
(04:13):
So, simply put, the lack ofwomen and other underrepresented
minorities in academia hasimmediate and adverse effects on
the population.
Supporting women and otherpopulations brings this breadth
of knowledge that improves theknowledge that's produced and
makes it representative of ourneeds and our issues as a
population, and all of that hasramifications down the line.
(04:35):
When we're not making knowledgethat's representative, we're
not making products that arerepresentative, we're not
creating an environment that'srepresentative.
All of that changes what we'relearning in the school system
and who in the school systemgrows up to be a scientist.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (04:49):
So you have a book, equity for Women in
Science and you detail how thosesystematic barriers affect
women's recognition in research.
How does this lack ofvisibility influence what
students see in theireducational content and then how
they see themselves reflectedin science?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (05:06):
Women have faced barriers to participation
in science and, as we talkedabout before, this affects how
younger girls think aboutthemselves as scientists and the
science that they see.
So, for example, there arestudies showing the strong
relationship between the numberof professional female
scientists in a community andthe likelihood that girls will
go into STEM.
(05:27):
And this doesn't necessarilymean that it is their mother or
their aunt that's in thecommunity, but just seeing
parents of other children whoare female scientists increases
the likelihood that they pursuethose fields.
Furthermore, we see that theirperception of women as
scientists affects their ownperformance.
So there was a study done wherethey gathered school-age girls
(05:47):
together who were Asian and theygave them two different
conditions and these girls wereequally good at math across the
board, but they split them intotwo groups and in one room they
went in and they reminded themthat they were Asian a
stereotype that tends to havethe advantage of the perception
that they're good at math and inthe other room they reminded
them that they were girls beforethey took the test.
(06:07):
Those reminded that they weregirls scored significantly lower
on their math test.
Now these should have performedthe same.
These were girls who hadhistorically performed the same.
But just priming them that way,saying you're part of a
population that's good at math,you're part of a population
that's bad at math, change theirperformance, and so this shows
how that mereunderrepresentation of women
(06:28):
changes how they perceive ofthemselves, how they actually
perform, and then the likelihoodthat they'll pursue careers in
science.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:36):
Wow, when you think about how powerful words
are to our mental framework andhow we perform, given the
expectations in front of us.
You've advocated for research,for rethinking how we define
success in academia.
How could that change the kindsof knowledge and perspectives
that are included then incurriculum and instruction?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (06:57):
I'll answer that, but I want to go
back to something you just said,because I think it's so
critically important that thosewords right, the words that we
use around children, how muchthat shapes their trajectory and
their perception of theirability to pursue science.
And that's what makes educatorsso critically important.
The way that they talk tochildren, the way that they
present these ideas to children,has huge effects and some of
(07:20):
it's even just small changingInstead of saying someone is
good at math or bad at math,trying to recognize that they're
working hard at math, right,changing around that perception.
So there was this reallyinteresting study that looked at
the degree to which peoplethought something was an innate
ability versus something theycould work hard to do.
And so things like math andphilosophy were just things you
(07:44):
were born with it.
And too often children are toldthings like that, like wow, you
are really good at that, that issomething you're innately good
at, and so children not toldthat then think well, then I'm
not good at it and you just haveto be born with it.
You have to be born with someinnate math ability or else you
don't have it.
But things like social work oreducation, those are things that
(08:05):
if you work hard, you can dothose, and so we see this
differentiation along genderlines in things that people
think take an innate talent andthings that people think are
things you can work hard.
And it's all in that way thatteachers, educators, parents are
talking to children about thesedifferent qualities rather than
assuming that all fields ofknowledge are things that if you
(08:25):
work hard, you can do them, andso it's that shifting, I think,
is really important there.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:31):
A lot of times , I think, as parents and as
educators, when you look at achild, you're trying to find
their gifts right, like what areyou really interested in, and
you want to be able to supportthat interest.
Or what are you reallyinterested in and you want to be
able to support that interest?
Or or what are you innatelygood at, and you want to be able
to support that, because maybethat is their strength.
And then that same way we couldbe affecting the outcome based
on just something simple, as wethink we're doing a great thing
(08:53):
by saying you're really good atthis.
Also, I've heard teachers wherethey say I know this is really
boring, but we have to do itRight.
We're just going to do thislittle thing and then we're
going to be able to move on tosomething fun.
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (09:06):
And in those ways we're also harming
the potential of the kids intheir class, exactly, and we see
those kinds of splits happenaround puberty for girls is that
they'll be outperforming boysin many subjects, and then the
subjects that you say this isboring or it's not cool, right,
right at that identity shiftwhen you're having those moments
of trying to establish yourselfand you want to be cool.
So therefore doing somethingthat's not cool becomes hard.
(09:27):
We see girls drop out of chessclubs at the same rates, right,
any of those things that startto get a stigma associated with
it.
And teachers contribute to thisby saying something is boring
or saying, okay, now we're goingto do something fun, right.
And so those kinds of thingshave really very critical
priming effects.
And I think to your point tooabout recognizing strengths.
(09:47):
We all have path dependencies.
I can only recognize thestrengths of attributes I know.
So you see a lot of familieswhere all the children are
doctors and the parents weredoctors and the grandparents
were doctors, because they cansay you would be good at med
school, because I've beenthrough med school.
But if you don't have aphysicist in the family, then
recognizing that your kid mightactually do really well in
(10:09):
physics is going to be harder,right?
So it's all of those thingswhen we're continually
recognizing our own strengths inour children rather than giving
them that broader array ofopportunities and pathways that
we may not be familiar withourselves.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:22):
You were talking about, like redefining
success in academia.
What would that look like?
You know what is success inacademia, and then how do you
redefine?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (10:30):
it.
So success metrics in academiaare based around assumptions of
an ideal scientist.
That's completely at odds withthe contemporary scholar.
It assumes an all-consumingvocation where you work
constantly, you have no childcare or elder care
responsibilities, you can travelas much as you want, and this
perpetuates a system in whichscientists tend to be white men
(10:52):
from privileged backgrounds, andthis has an effect on the
perspectives that are includedin research and therefore
instruction.
And it also perpetuates theperspective of who can be a
scholar, leaving out hosts ofthe population, women,
underrepresented minorities,those with physical disabilities
, those from lower socioeconomicbackgrounds, and this creates
that vicious cycle in that, bynot recruiting a diverse
(11:14):
population, our knowledge basedoesn't broaden.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:17):
Absolutely, and then how does that change
then the type of curriculum thatis included in our instruction?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (11:23):
Then we keep having that same
perspective.
Right, the questions that weask don't change.
We still tend to ask questionsthat are relevant to that
population, and that's a naturalthing to do.
Right, you're bringingquestions from your own
perspective and you're askingthose.
But if you've never experiencedpoverty, you may not ask
questions about poverty.
If you are not a mother, youmay not be asking questions
(11:45):
about motherhood, and we seethis throughout biomedical
research.
Women tend to ask morequestions about the female body.
Right now, our research onwomen's health is far beyond
men's health, right behind men'shealth.
So we're not asking thequestions that are necessary to
make women as healthy, becausewomen aren't in the biomedical
sciences to the degree that menhave been historically, and so
(12:08):
it's that kind of thing wherewe're just not generating
knowledge that's relevant andreflects everyone's lived
experience, because thescientific workforce is so
skewed towards particularpopulations.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (12:19):
Yeah, I definitely can see how that
happens when you think about whythere are things like advisory
boards or committees.
It's all about gaining theperspectives of different people
so that you're going to be ableto have a better understanding
of the product or of the process, and so gaining perspective is
actually a good thing, and it'ssomething that we should be
(12:41):
striving for, because then weunderstand the material and the
effects.
So now I'm looking atcurriculum.
Have you ever seen someexamples of how that changing
knowledge is supported orevaluated and it's made a
difference in the educationalspace?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (12:55):
Absolutely .
I think that we see this even inour history curriculum and
there have been manyconversations around this in the
K-12 space of how we'rerepresenting historical events
and the degree to which thoseare inclusive of many different
perspectives.
(13:21):
Keen example on here they makeup less than 1% of doctoral
students in academes.
The amount of research thatwe're producing coming from that
perspective, that's consideringthat perspective, that's
looking at evidence and sourcesfrom that perspective is very,
very limited, and you can seethat throughout our history
textbooks across the nation.
Right, we do not represent thatperspective to the degree that
we probably should, and so it'sthose kinds of things that as we
diversify the scientificworkforce, we create new
(13:44):
knowledge, we generate bettersources, more robust, more
inclusive sources, and then ittakes time before that comes
down and hits our textbooks inour history classroom, in our
social studies classroom.
But we see that happeningslowly over time with any race,
population, ethnicity.
As we start to just change whogets to ask the questions, we
(14:04):
start to question thosetextbooks, we question the
curriculum in ways that makes itmore robust, right, and I think
sometimes people see anymovements towards inclusivity as
being about justice.
It's not necessarily aboutjustice.
It's about scientific rigor.
It's about historical rigor.
It's not necessarily aboutjustice.
It's about scientific rigor.
It's about historical rigor.
It's providing accuraterepresentations of what happened
(14:25):
in the past and the life inwhich we're living right now.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:27):
From a curriculum standpoint, what
steps can educators take tobring more diverse and
representative voices into thematerials that they use?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (14:36):
We are doing a study right now
examining the use of largelanguage models, or what most
people would call AI, ingenerating prompts, and this is
a very common use of AI in theK-12 educators.
They will say create a storyfor this right.
I want to create a prompt, Iwant to create a scenario for my
students.
So, as you're making materialsevery day, you're often doing
prompt generation.
(14:57):
So we asked a number of theleading AI systems to generate
prompts of students in theclassroom, and in one element,
we do this in a neutral way.
Tell us a story about a studentstudying biology.
In another, we introduce apower hierarchy.
For example, tell me a story ofa struggling student and a
student who's doing well, whohelps them.
And what we find in theresponse to these prompts that
(15:19):
is, the stories generated by AIis that they overwhelmingly
present white female students asthe strong students and names
associated with non-white racesand ethnicities as struggling
students, and it's the moststriking results I've ever seen
in all of my research.
And this has strong potentialsfor harm.
If students are presented withmaterial day after day that
(15:41):
replicates stereotypes about theperformance of their race or
gender, this has adverse effectson their own performance and
therefore it becomes aself-fulfilling prophecy.
Educators must take care torecognize these biases, from the
AI they use to create coursematerials to the readings that
they assign.
It makes a difference whenstudents see themselves
represented in the materialsthat are used.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:02):
And finally, what's one thing that educators,
school leaders or parents cando to help create a more
complete and representativelearning experience for their
students.
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (16:11):
Every year , our school, the Jimmy and
Rosalind Carter School of PublicPolicy at Georgia Tech, hosts a
conference on science andinnovation policy, and one of
our keynote speakers years agowas Rush Holt a conference on
science and innovation policy,and one of our keynote speakers
years ago was Rush Holt, aphysicist who served in the US
House of Representatives andthen led the American
Association for the Advancementof Scholars, and in his talk he
made one recommendation that hasreally stuck with me as a
(16:33):
parent and as an educator.
He said when your children comehome from school each day,
don't ask them what they learned.
Ask them them what they learned.
Ask them what questions theyasked.
And this is a fundamental shift.
It teaches children thatscience is not static, that we
are constantly learning moreabout the world around us, and
it teaches them that they can bethe one asking the questions,
(16:53):
they can be a part of thatsystem of generating new
knowledge, that they too can bescientists, and that's the only
way towards a robust knowledgesystem.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:01):
That's very good advice.
I really like that Well.
Thank you so much.
It has been a real privilege tobe able to speak with you today
.
You've helped us see howeducation isn't just shaped by
what happens in the classroom,but also by the larger systems
that decide what publishedknowledge we see that is
recognized and shared.
Thank you so much forconnecting those dots between
(17:23):
research and policy and whathappens in the classroom.
Thank you so much for having me.
Today's conversation reminds usthat what we teach is shaped
long before it reaches theclassroom.
Paying attention to whereknowledge comes from is the
first step towards greaterunderstanding and inclusion.
If you have a story about what'sworking in your schools that
you'd like to share, you canemail me at lisa at
(17:44):
drlisahasslercom, or visit mywebsite at wwwdrlisahasslercom
and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
(18:04):
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
When we think about improving education, we
often think about classroomstrategies, technology or
testing.
But what if the story beginslong before the lesson plan is
even written?
What if the biggest influenceon what we teach starts with who
gets to create the knowledge?
Welcome to the brighter side ofeducation, research, innovation
(00:29):
and resources.
I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
(00:49):
student outcomes?
Every curriculum, whether inelementary school, high school
or at a university, is built onpublished knowledge.
The research we include, thevoices we cite and the
discoveries we teach all reflectchoices made far up the stream
in academia.
But not everybody has an equalchance to be heard in those
systems.
Studies show that women andscholars from less
(01:11):
representative backgrounds areoften published less, cited less
and funded less.
These patterns don't justaffect the researchers.
They influence what ends up inthe classrooms and our training
programs.
Today's guest, Dr.
Cassidy Sugimoto, helps usunderstand how these knowledge
systems work and how we can makethem more inclusive and
representative.
She is the Tom and Marie PattonProfessor and School Chair in
(01:34):
the School of Public Policy atGeorgia Institute of Technology.
A leading expert in knowledgesystems, her research focuses on
how knowledge is produced,shared and supported, with a
focus on inclusion andaccessibility.
Formerly a professor at IndianaUniversity and a program
director at the National ScienceFoundation, dr Sugimoto's
(01:55):
groundbreaking work istransforming the landscape of
academia and research.
Good morning, dr CassidySugimoto, and welcome to the
show.
Thanks for having me.
Just to start us off, can youexplain what a knowledge system
is and why it matters in theworld of education?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (02:12):
Absolutely A knowledge system is the
ecosystem in which knowledge ismade, so it's composed of
scholars and scholarlyinstitutions, as well as the
practices that guide howknowledge is produced, supported
and disseminated.
The practices that guide howknowledge is produced, supported
and disseminated.
Everything someone learns inschool, whether grade school,
college or graduate school, is aproduct of this knowledge
system.
All the content we learn, allthe teachers we learn from, even
(02:34):
the practices that we follow,like the scientific method, come
out of this system.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (02:42):
So when you think about decisions that are
made in academia, like who getspublished and cited and how they
end up shaping what studentsare learning in the classrooms,
how are those decisions made?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (02:48):
It's a great question, and so when we
think about who gets to producescience, it has massive
ramifications on what we learnin the classroom and how
students feel about themselvesas learners as well.
So the lack of women and otherunderrepresented minorities has
incredibly strong impacts uponwhat knowledge is generated and
therefore the type of knowledgethat goes into instruction.
(03:10):
So, for example, women are 47%more likely to be seriously
injured in a car crash.
Now, why is this?
It wasn't until the early 2000sthat a female-typed crash dummy
was introduced, and she wasjust a scaled down version of a
male crash dummy, and she wasplaced at 108 pounds and only
four foot and 11 inches tall.
(03:30):
Now, I don't know about you,but I don't meet those
specifications, and 95% of womenin the United States do not
meet those specifications.
So we weren't testing cars forhow women actually sat in them,
and the crash dummy was onlyplaced in the passenger seat.
So if a woman was outside ofthose specifications, or driving
the car, or driving the carwhile pregnant, it wasn't made
(03:51):
to support them, and one of thearguments for this is that there
are very few women engineers.
This is one of the fields withthe lowest representation of
women.
Therefore, women's issuesaren't at the forefront of
research and design, and we seesimilar things in biomedicine.
The lack of sex analysis andpharmaceutical testing has led
to significant adverse effectsfor women.
(04:13):
So, simply put, the lack ofwomen and other underrepresented
minorities in academia hasimmediate and adverse effects on
the population.
Supporting women and otherpopulations brings this breadth
of knowledge that improves theknowledge that's produced and
makes it representative of ourneeds and our issues as a
population, and all of that hasramifications down the line.
(04:35):
When we're not making knowledgethat's representative, we're
not making products that arerepresentative, we're not
creating an environment that'srepresentative.
All of that changes what we'relearning in the school system
and who in the school systemgrows up to be a scientist.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (04:49):
So you have a book, equity for Women in
Science and you detail how thosesystematic barriers affect
women's recognition in research.
How does this lack ofvisibility influence what
students see in theireducational content and then how
they see themselves reflectedin science?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (05:06):
Women have faced barriers to participation
in science and, as we talkedabout before, this affects how
younger girls think aboutthemselves as scientists and the
science that they see.
So, for example, there arestudies showing the strong
relationship between the numberof professional female
scientists in a community andthe likelihood that girls will
go into STEM.
(05:27):
And this doesn't necessarilymean that it is their mother or
their aunt that's in thecommunity, but just seeing
parents of other children whoare female scientists increases
the likelihood that they pursuethose fields.
Furthermore, we see that theirperception of women as
scientists affects their ownperformance.
So there was a study done wherethey gathered school-age girls
(05:47):
together who were Asian and theygave them two different
conditions and these girls wereequally good at math across the
board, but they split them intotwo groups and in one room they
went in and they reminded themthat they were Asian a
stereotype that tends to havethe advantage of the perception
that they're good at math and inthe other room they reminded
them that they were girls beforethey took the test.
(06:07):
Those reminded that they weregirls scored significantly lower
on their math test.
Now these should have performedthe same.
These were girls who hadhistorically performed the same.
But just priming them that way,saying you're part of a
population that's good at math,you're part of a population
that's bad at math, change theirperformance, and so this shows
how that mereunderrepresentation of women
(06:28):
changes how they perceive ofthemselves, how they actually
perform, and then the likelihoodthat they'll pursue careers in
science.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (06:36):
Wow, when you think about how powerful words
are to our mental framework andhow we perform, given the
expectations in front of us.
You've advocated for research,for rethinking how we define
success in academia.
How could that change the kindsof knowledge and perspectives
that are included then incurriculum and instruction?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (06:57):
I'll answer that, but I want to go
back to something you just said,because I think it's so
critically important that thosewords right, the words that we
use around children, how muchthat shapes their trajectory and
their perception of theirability to pursue science.
And that's what makes educatorsso critically important.
The way that they talk tochildren, the way that they
present these ideas to children,has huge effects and some of
(07:20):
it's even just small changingInstead of saying someone is
good at math or bad at math,trying to recognize that they're
working hard at math, right,changing around that perception.
So there was this reallyinteresting study that looked at
the degree to which peoplethought something was an innate
ability versus something theycould work hard to do.
And so things like math andphilosophy were just things you
(07:44):
were born with it.
And too often children are toldthings like that, like wow, you
are really good at that, that issomething you're innately good
at, and so children not toldthat then think well, then I'm
not good at it and you just haveto be born with it.
You have to be born with someinnate math ability or else you
don't have it.
But things like social work oreducation, those are things that
(08:05):
if you work hard, you can dothose, and so we see this
differentiation along genderlines in things that people
think take an innate talent andthings that people think are
things you can work hard.
And it's all in that way thatteachers, educators, parents are
talking to children about thesedifferent qualities rather than
assuming that all fields ofknowledge are things that if you
(08:25):
work hard, you can do them, andso it's that shifting, I think,
is really important there.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (08:31):
A lot of times , I think, as parents and as
educators, when you look at achild, you're trying to find
their gifts right, like what areyou really interested in, and
you want to be able to supportthat interest.
Or what are you reallyinterested in and you want to be
able to support that interest?
Or or what are you innatelygood at, and you want to be able
to support that, because maybethat is their strength.
And then that same way we couldbe affecting the outcome based
on just something simple, as wethink we're doing a great thing
(08:53):
by saying you're really good atthis.
Also, I've heard teachers wherethey say I know this is really
boring, but we have to do itRight.
We're just going to do thislittle thing and then we're
going to be able to move on tosomething fun.
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (09:06):
And in those ways we're also harming
the potential of the kids intheir class, exactly, and we see
those kinds of splits happenaround puberty for girls is that
they'll be outperforming boysin many subjects, and then the
subjects that you say this isboring or it's not cool, right,
right at that identity shiftwhen you're having those moments
of trying to establish yourselfand you want to be cool.
So therefore doing somethingthat's not cool becomes hard.
(09:27):
We see girls drop out of chessclubs at the same rates, right,
any of those things that startto get a stigma associated with
it.
And teachers contribute to thisby saying something is boring
or saying, okay, now we're goingto do something fun, right.
And so those kinds of thingshave really very critical
priming effects.
And I think to your point tooabout recognizing strengths.
(09:47):
We all have path dependencies.
I can only recognize thestrengths of attributes I know.
So you see a lot of familieswhere all the children are
doctors and the parents weredoctors and the grandparents
were doctors, because they cansay you would be good at med
school, because I've beenthrough med school.
But if you don't have aphysicist in the family, then
recognizing that your kid mightactually do really well in
(10:09):
physics is going to be harder,right?
So it's all of those thingswhen we're continually
recognizing our own strengths inour children rather than giving
them that broader array ofopportunities and pathways that
we may not be familiar withourselves.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:22):
You were talking about, like redefining
success in academia.
What would that look like?
You know what is success inacademia, and then how do you
redefine?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (10:30):
it.
So success metrics in academiaare based around assumptions of
an ideal scientist.
That's completely at odds withthe contemporary scholar.
It assumes an all-consumingvocation where you work
constantly, you have no childcare or elder care
responsibilities, you can travelas much as you want, and this
perpetuates a system in whichscientists tend to be white men
(10:52):
from privileged backgrounds, andthis has an effect on the
perspectives that are includedin research and therefore
instruction.
And it also perpetuates theperspective of who can be a
scholar, leaving out hosts ofthe population, women,
underrepresented minorities,those with physical disabilities
, those from lower socioeconomicbackgrounds, and this creates
that vicious cycle in that, bynot recruiting a diverse
(11:14):
population, our knowledge basedoesn't broaden.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:17):
Absolutely, and then how does that change
then the type of curriculum thatis included in our instruction?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (11:23):
Then we keep having that same
perspective.
Right, the questions that weask don't change.
We still tend to ask questionsthat are relevant to that
population, and that's a naturalthing to do.
Right, you're bringingquestions from your own
perspective and you're askingthose.
But if you've never experiencedpoverty, you may not ask
questions about poverty.
If you are not a mother, youmay not be asking questions
(11:45):
about motherhood, and we seethis throughout biomedical
research.
Women tend to ask morequestions about the female body.
Right now, our research onwomen's health is far beyond
men's health, right behind men'shealth.
So we're not asking thequestions that are necessary to
make women as healthy, becausewomen aren't in the biomedical
sciences to the degree that menhave been historically, and so
(12:08):
it's that kind of thing wherewe're just not generating
knowledge that's relevant andreflects everyone's lived
experience, because thescientific workforce is so
skewed towards particularpopulations.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (12:19):
Yeah, I definitely can see how that
happens when you think about whythere are things like advisory
boards or committees.
It's all about gaining theperspectives of different people
so that you're going to be ableto have a better understanding
of the product or of the process, and so gaining perspective is
actually a good thing, and it'ssomething that we should be
(12:41):
striving for, because then weunderstand the material and the
effects.
So now I'm looking atcurriculum.
Have you ever seen someexamples of how that changing
knowledge is supported orevaluated and it's made a
difference in the educationalspace?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (12:55):
Absolutely .
I think that we see this even inour history curriculum and
there have been manyconversations around this in the
K-12 space of how we'rerepresenting historical events
and the degree to which thoseare inclusive of many different
perspectives.
(13:21):
Keen example on here they makeup less than 1% of doctoral
students in academes.
The amount of research thatwe're producing coming from that
perspective, that's consideringthat perspective, that's
looking at evidence and sourcesfrom that perspective is very,
very limited, and you can seethat throughout our history
textbooks across the nation.
Right, we do not represent thatperspective to the degree that
we probably should, and so it'sthose kinds of things that as we
diversify the scientificworkforce, we create new
(13:44):
knowledge, we generate bettersources, more robust, more
inclusive sources, and then ittakes time before that comes
down and hits our textbooks inour history classroom, in our
social studies classroom.
But we see that happeningslowly over time with any race,
population, ethnicity.
As we start to just change whogets to ask the questions, we
(14:04):
start to question thosetextbooks, we question the
curriculum in ways that makes itmore robust, right, and I think
sometimes people see anymovements towards inclusivity as
being about justice.
It's not necessarily aboutjustice.
It's about scientific rigor.
It's about historical rigor.
It's not necessarily aboutjustice.
It's about scientific rigor.
It's about historical rigor.
It's providing accuraterepresentations of what happened
(14:25):
in the past and the life inwhich we're living right now.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (14:27):
From a curriculum standpoint, what
steps can educators take tobring more diverse and
representative voices into thematerials that they use?
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (14:36):
We are doing a study right now
examining the use of largelanguage models, or what most
people would call AI, ingenerating prompts, and this is
a very common use of AI in theK-12 educators.
They will say create a storyfor this right.
I want to create a prompt, Iwant to create a scenario for my
students.
So, as you're making materialsevery day, you're often doing
prompt generation.
(14:57):
So we asked a number of theleading AI systems to generate
prompts of students in theclassroom, and in one element,
we do this in a neutral way.
Tell us a story about a studentstudying biology.
In another, we introduce apower hierarchy.
For example, tell me a story ofa struggling student and a
student who's doing well, whohelps them.
And what we find in theresponse to these prompts that
(15:19):
is, the stories generated by AIis that they overwhelmingly
present white female students asthe strong students and names
associated with non-white racesand ethnicities as struggling
students, and it's the moststriking results I've ever seen
in all of my research.
And this has strong potentialsfor harm.
If students are presented withmaterial day after day that
(15:41):
replicates stereotypes about theperformance of their race or
gender, this has adverse effectson their own performance and
therefore it becomes aself-fulfilling prophecy.
Educators must take care torecognize these biases, from the
AI they use to create coursematerials to the readings that
they assign.
It makes a difference whenstudents see themselves
represented in the materialsthat are used.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:02):
And finally, what's one thing that educators,
school leaders or parents cando to help create a more
complete and representativelearning experience for their
students.
Dr. Cassidy Sugimoto (16:11):
Every year , our school, the Jimmy and
Rosalind Carter School of PublicPolicy at Georgia Tech, hosts a
conference on science andinnovation policy, and one of
our keynote speakers years agowas Rush Holt a conference on
science and innovation policy,and one of our keynote speakers
years ago was Rush Holt, aphysicist who served in the US
House of Representatives andthen led the American
Association for the Advancementof Scholars, and in his talk he
made one recommendation that hasreally stuck with me as a
(16:33):
parent and as an educator.
He said when your children comehome from school each day,
don't ask them what they learned.
Ask them them what they learned.
Ask them what questions theyasked.
And this is a fundamental shift.
It teaches children thatscience is not static, that we
are constantly learning moreabout the world around us, and
it teaches them that they can bethe one asking the questions,
(16:53):
they can be a part of thatsystem of generating new
knowledge, that they too can bescientists, and that's the only
way towards a robust knowledgesystem.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (17:01):
That's very good advice.
I really like that Well.
Thank you so much.
It has been a real privilege tobe able to speak with you today
.
You've helped us see howeducation isn't just shaped by
what happens in the classroom,but also by the larger systems
that decide what publishedknowledge we see that is
recognized and shared.
Thank you so much forconnecting those dots between
(17:23):
research and policy and whathappens in the classroom.
Thank you so much for having me.
Today's conversation reminds usthat what we teach is shaped
long before it reaches theclassroom.
Paying attention to whereknowledge comes from is the
first step towards greaterunderstanding and inclusion.
If you have a story about what'sworking in your schools that
you'd like to share, you canemail me at lisa at
(17:44):
drlisahasslercom, or visit mywebsite at wwwdrlisahasslercom
and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
(18:04):
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
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