May 15, 2024 • 45 mins
In this raw and heartfelt episode of The Broken Pack™:Stories of Adult Sibling Loss, Taylor bravely shares her experience as a surviving sibling after losing her brother Ben to Adderall addiction. Through tears and laughter, she explores the depths of sibling grief, the unexpected signs that Ben is still with her, and the ongoing journey of navigating life after loss. Taylor's story offers solace and hope to others facing the complexities of sibling grief, while shedding light on the devastating impact of addiction.
Content Warning: This episode discusses the loss of a sibling due to substance use disorder and may be upsetting for listeners who have experienced similar losses or have experienced substance use disorder first hand or in loved ones. Listener discretion is advised.
About Taylor:
Instagram: @infertileandimpatient
Resources:
-If you believe you are witnessing an overdose, call 911 or your country’s emergency number immediately even if you are administering Narcan.
-In the US,, please call SAMHSA’s National Helpline is 1-800-662-HELP (4357) or Text your 5-digit ZIP Code to 435748 (HELP4U) or call a warmline.
-For more immediate crisis call 911, 988, or go to the nearest emergency room.
- In the UK, related resources: https://tinyurl.com/3fknb36c
-In the USA, warmlines by state : https://warmline.org/warmdir.html
-A warmline directory for trained peer supports in over 20 countries can be found at https://www.supportiv.com/tools/international-resources-crisis-and-warmlines (some may be hotlines)
Adderall Addiction: https://americanaddictioncenters.org/adderall
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
Please like, subscribe, and share!
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Facebook: @BrokenPack
Instagram: @thebrokenpack
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Sign-up for Wild Grief™, our newsletter: https://thebrokenpack.com/newsletter
Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Licensed for use by The Broken Pack™
Now available on all streaming platforms including Apple Music & Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/3vx3kk46
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Taylor shares her sibling lossstory with me about losing her
brother, Ben, to substance usedisorder, starting with Adderall
abuse.
I know that this topic may beupsetting to some people, so
listen with caution, but alsolisten to hear Taylor's
relationship with Ben and howdevastating losing him has been,
(00:56):
as well as the stigma forsubstance use disorder and how
that impacted her grief andother people's reactions to her
loss.
All right.
So how would you like tointroduce yourself to our
(01:16):
listeners?
Taylor Hershman (01:18):
Hi, Dr.
Dean.
I would like to introduce myselfby saying, my name is Taylor
Ortiz Herschman.
I am from the Chicago area,working in advertising sales.
I have two daughters, Quinn andCharlie.
And earlier, in 2022, I lost mylittle brother, Ben, when he was
27.
Dr. Dean (01:36):
Thank you for sharing that.
And, welcome to the show.
So before we dive into what itwas like to lose Ben, I'm
wondering what you would likemyself and our listeners to know
about Ben.
Taylor Hershman (01:49):
Sure.
So Ben was, a complicated guy.
He, lived life on his own path,if you will, which was
sometimes, one of the bestthings about him.
When I did his eulogy, when hepassed at a celebration of life,
something that I, came torealize after his passing was
that the little things, reallydidn't bother Ben as much as.
(02:12):
they do to the rest of us andthe big things were a much
bigger deal.
He was very empathetic, verysensitive, very opinionated,
competitive things like that.
Dr. Dean (02:22):
Hmm You said he was younger than you.
Taylor Hershman (02:25):
Yeah.
We're four years apart.
He was twenty-seven
Dr. Dean (02:28):
Do you have other siblings?
Taylor Hershman (02:30):
Yes.
We have an older sister, Laurie.
Dr. Dean (02:32):
Laurie.
Okay.
So you're right in the middle.
Yeah.
What was your relationship likewith him?
Either as kids or as adults orhowever you want to answer that.
Taylor Hershman (02:43):
Yeah, as kids, we definitely fought a lot.
We were four years apart.
there was a lot of bickeringgoing on, with us over the
years.
I do remember the first time itstarted to feel like we were
friends.
more than he was just anannoying sibling.
When he was in college, I wentto go stay with him for a night
(03:03):
and we went to a concert withsome of his friends and it was
the first time I felt like Oh,so I guess we could actually be
friends and you're more thanjust an annoying little brother.
We always were very close, butwe were really different.
We argued a lot nothing major.
We always had a really goodrelationship, but it definitely,
as we got older, evolved frommore of a little brother, older
(03:24):
sister relationship into more ofone that's like friends.
Dr. Dean (03:28):
What are you comfortable sharing with our
audience about losing yourbrother?
Taylor Hershman (03:34):
Ben always lived, like I said, to the beat
of his own drum, if you will.
He moved to Denver after hegraduated college.
He always lived on paper, thisquote unquote normal life.
He had a lot of friends.
He was really, a greatbasketball player.
He played in college.
He won a lot of awards andtournaments and things like
(03:55):
that.
So on paper, it was, like helived the life that, quote
unquote.
Yeah.
is normal.
but I think he struggled becausehe didn't feel like he was meant
to live a life like that.
looking back, it's what that,what it seems like.
One of his friends described itto us is that he was almost
living on a different plane ofthe universe.
he was a little enlightened andlike I said, the big things,
(04:18):
mattered a lot more to him.
The little things being, likestudying and stuff like that
just wasn't quite as importantto him.
He had some, problems in schoolwhen he was in high school, not
turning in homework or notstudying for tests.
And, he was always so smart.
One of his teachers, in seventhgrade, had to call my mom about,
(04:40):
he didn't turn in his paper and,just the typical thing for a
young student sometimes and shesaid, I don't know any other
seventh grader who knowsanything about what's going on
in Darfur, except for Ben, buthe doesn't like to do his
English homework, so he was verysmart, really into research and
things like that, but was on hisown terms.
When he was probably in highschool, my parents took him to
(05:03):
the doctor and they prescribedhim Adderall.
And at the time, this was, 10,15 years ago.
And, my parents weren't reallysure how they felt about it, but
they really trusted this doctorand it seemed to help.
He stayed on it for, all of highschool, college, things like
that.
And then when he grew up, andmoved out on his own, he
continued taking it.
(05:23):
It wasn't something that healways communicated about, but
we did know that he was stillbeing prescribed it.
And then in 2022, things took aturn with him.
One day kind of out of nowhere,we started getting some texts
from him really early on aSunday morning.
And it was clear that somethingwas not right.
(05:44):
He wasn't making any sense.
he was essentially, it seemedlike he was hallucinating.
And.
It was very disturbing to seethat because we knew something
was wrong and we felt verypowerless, like what can we do
from Illinois, for a 27 year oldman in Denver?
Dr. Dean (06:00):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (06:01):
Luckily he had, friends in the area that we
could reach out to they wouldn'tchecked on them.
We were able to get a welfarecheck.
And my parents almostimmediately.
got on a flight to Denver andwe're there by that night.
A mental health professionalarrived and, long story short,
he agreed to go to the hospitaland.
(06:21):
we didn't know what it was atthis point.
is it some type of mental healthepisode?
What's going on?
And, they ran a whole bunch oftests, physical tests, as well
as mental evaluations.
And it turns out that he hadbeen abusing Adderall and the
lack of sleep and the, unhealthyamounts of Adderall that he was
taking essentially led to apsychosis, episode.
(06:45):
So it was a lot to process.
You hear about Adderall as adrug that helps people.
And I do believe that, somepeople do benefit from it, but
it's so normalized in oursociety.
So it felt like how cansomething seemingly, so innocent
cause this kind of damage.
And so, my parents were therewith him for several days.
(07:08):
He was in the hospital for acouple of days and he agreed to
go to rehab.
When he agreed to go to rehab,we were very proud of him, cause
it wasn't an easy step to takeand he agreed pretty much right
away.
Dr. Dean (07:25):
So it sounds like you learned that he was struggling
with this around the same timethat you were able to support
him in that moment.
Taylor Hershman (07:33):
yes, yeah.
So my parents, yeah.
they acted quickly.
They were there as fast as theycould be.
Ben was.
was willing to go to rehab andhe went almost immediately and
he did really well there.
I think something that we reallystruggled with and that he did
too is that again, Adderallcompared to heroin or meth or
(07:58):
all these other drugs, it soundsa lot more innocent and it is
when you look at, So I think itwas hard for him to take it
seriously.
He felt like, I'm with peoplewho are struggling with things a
lot worse.
It seemed like he felt like hejust had a bad reaction to the
medication.
It's how he described it.
My family is really close andhe's really close with my
parents and he wanted to, Ithink maybe appease them and,
(08:19):
alleviate some of theirconcerns.
So he did do 30 days It seemedlike he was doing well.
He got this kind of, resurgenceof motivation and, to start
working out again and to, he wasdoing better at work and things
like that.
And then, he came home in thesummer for a couple of days for
our grandpa had passed away.
So for his celebration of life,and that was at the end of June,
(08:40):
he stayed for a couple of weeks,went home right after the 4th of
July, and then.
A week later, he had passed.
It was pretty quick, from whenthe time we found out he was
struggling until the day that hedied.
Dr. Dean (08:58):
Yeah.
That sounds like it was prettyshocking for you.
Taylor Hershman (09:01):
It was, yeah.
He was struggling with thesubstance, clearly.
We worried about it evolving toother things, like when the
Adderall wasn't enough, thenwhat?
We found out what happened in areally difficult way.
and we assumed it was fentanylor something like that, that you
hear of quite often.
I've scoured the internet andhaven't been able to find any
(09:21):
stories of anyone dying fromAdderall.
I know that, it is a veryaddictive substance and people
do struggle with that, but itfelt like it was out of nowhere
in the sense that we didn'texpect him to, past a couple of
months after getting out ofrehab and it wasn't expected in
a way.
The last time I saw him was theday after my grandpa's
(09:45):
celebration of life.
And my last memory of him is avery positive one.
Dr. Dean (09:55):
Mm hmm.
Taylor Hershman (09:59):
We said goodbye.
He was going back to Denver.
I was going back to my housewith my kids and my husband and
he gave me a big hug and hesaid, I love you.
And that was that.
I got into my car.
outside my parents house with myhusband driving and I just
started crying because I justhad this feeling.
(10:25):
Part of it was probably, youknow, I was just emotional from
the last few days of sayinggoodbye to my grandpa, but I
just had this terrible feelingabout my brother.
And I remember telling myhusband, Sean, I said, he's just
never going to live the quote,normal life.
I just had this feeling that hewould always struggle.
(10:50):
And I think, I don't know if itwas just a bad feeling that I
had or what, a week later he wasgone.
So.
Dr. Dean (11:00):
So that's a lot of loss.
Yeah.
You had loss after loss and
Taylor Hershman (11:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very difficult year.
2021 was a really hard year forme with my daughters and their
health issues and born early andthings like that.
And so when it was time for,2022 to roll around, I felt
okay, this is the time.
This is the year.
Things are going to go back tonormal.
after years of infertility andpreterm birth and almost losing
(11:30):
my daughter in 2021, I feltentitled almost to things to
turn around.
I felt like the universe owes me
Dr. Dean (11:38):
yeah.
Taylor Hershman (11:39):
And then it was my grandpa in February, which is
sad, but part of life.
My brother in, in July, and thennot even a year later, a close
cousin.
So it was, a lot, packed into toone.
Dr. Dean (11:53):
Yeah.
that is a lot of loss.
And the infertility loss, thepreterm and what you expected,
that's a loss.
And Yeah, it, I like how youidentified there was this sense
of, I don't know, entitlement orthat I'm just entitled to this
life going right now, and thatdidn't happen.
I wonder how that impactedgrieving for Ben I mean, it's
(12:15):
all awful
Taylor Hershman (12:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think, at the time I wasalready really, struggling with,
some PTSD.
long story short, I had to givemy, she was three months old at
the time I had to give her CPR.
And so I was, really in a toughplace.
mentally.
I was, having a really hard timerecovering from that.
And so then when my brotherpassed, it felt like it was just
(12:40):
almost validated that okay, lifeis going to be hard from now on.
And it was really compoundedtrauma on top of trauma from the
year prior.
I think it definitelyintensified it.
It's something that I've, spokenwith my therapist a lot about is
how I've had these bad thingshappen, pretty close together.
(13:02):
And so it's really heightened myanxiety because she's of course
you always think somethingterrible is about to happen
because something terrible didhappen a lot, a lot of times in,
a year and it didn't make, Ithink, grieving, I don't know,
different, I guess, because itwas not just a feeling of
sadness, it was, there was a lotof trauma involved and kind of
(13:26):
processing the day that we foundout what happened and how that
all transpired is something thatI've, really struggled with.
And my family has reallystruggled with too.
Dr. Dean (13:39):
It sounds like you, you pull together as a family.
Taylor Hershman (13:42):
Yeah, definitely.
I don't mind talking about, highlevel what happened.
When we found out, because Ithink that is part of it.
Basically, my family is veryclose.
My brother, my sister and myparents and I, we have a group
chat and we talk, pretty muchevery day, several times a day.
And it was, a Monday and,around, six o'clock that night,
(14:03):
my mom texted me and said, haveyou heard from Ben?
And when she said that, I justknew He talked to my mom all the
time, no matter what he wasdoing, he always responded to
her.
And as the night went on and westill hadn't heard from him, I
just knew.
And part of what was difficultwas that, the process of getting
(14:26):
police over to his apartment wasvery long and very tedious.
My parents were up the entirenight calling the police and
they were never notified of whathappened.
To this day, they haven't beennotified.
And, it's really hard because itfeels, a bit disrespectful, to
my brother and, they ended uphaving to call the morgue to
(14:49):
find out.
And that's just,
Dr. Dean (14:51):
Oh,
Taylor Hershman (14:52):
yeah, not a pleasant, not that there's any
pleasant way, but it just wasreally dragged out the whole
process.
Dr. Dean (15:03):
yeah, that's pretty awful.
Taylor Hershman (15:04):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (15:06):
I'm so sorry that you had that experience.
Taylor Hershman (15:08):
yeah, thank you.
Dr. Dean (15:10):
You're welcome.
And I can see how that alsobecomes a complication and
processing trauma for you.
Taylor Hershman (15:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
Anytime I get a phone call, youknow, it's like, oh my God, what
happened?
if my parents or my sister or myhusband or whoever doesn't
answer me pretty muchimmediately, I panic.
My mom took a nap.
This was a year ago or so, andshe took a nap, and I was on an
airplane, and she didn't answermy text, and I just freaked out,
(15:39):
for lack of better terms, andhad her neighbor come over,
broke into their house,basically, and she's oh, she's
sleeping.
I walked into her bedroom.
It's, hard to recover from that.
Dr. Dean (15:47):
Yeah, and I think that's something that so many of
us experience is like that phonecall like now you don't want
like at least for some time Ithink it's pretty common that
the phone rings and you're likeokay especially in day and age
of texting that the phone evenrings.
How did you feel supported ornot in those days after like
(16:09):
that immediate time period after
Taylor Hershman (16:11):
Yeah.
Immediately after I rememberthinking, I don't know what to
do.
I remember thinking, I wonder ifmy parents want me to come over.
of course they did, but I just,I didn't know what to do.
And so I called my husbandupstairs.
I asked him"What should I do?
Should I go there?" And he said,"Yes, of course go there." And
(16:33):
by the time I got there, theirhouse was, pretty full of their
friends.
They have amazing supportsystem.
And they had people just really,surrounding them for days and
weeks, and even still.
They're very fortunate in thatregard.
I think, Ben has an amazinggroup of friends to this day,
(16:57):
and they have been such a greatsupport because they continue to
talk about him and remember him.
And that's made a hugedifference.
Dr. Dean (17:12):
hmm Mm
Taylor Hershman (17:13):
I think something that is hard is, for
siblings specifically.
There's not a lot of places thatare specific to sibling loss.
And I think it is a unique loss.
I think that, as a parent andseeing my parents lose a child,
(17:33):
it's absolutely devastating and,something I can't fathom.
but with siblings, I think it'sa little misunderstood maybe.
Dr. Dean (17:42):
Precisely, but I think that's that exact phrase is on
my website anytime Sibling Lossis Misunderstood™.
Taylor Hershman (17:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
it's not the same thing as, agrandparent It really defies the
cycle and the circle of life.
I, my brother was younger, so Ijust assumed he would be with us
for my whole life.
And it really, disrupts yourworld and how you move about the
(18:10):
rest of your life.
Dr. Dean (18:13):
How has your relationship with your sister
changed after this?
Taylor Hershman (18:16):
We were always very close and we continue to be
very close.
My family dynamic is a littledifferent.
My sister and I are 13 yearsapart and she and my brother are
17 years apart.
Growing up, even though we had alarge age difference, we still
always had a very goodrelationship.
She was, a great older sister toboth of us.
(18:37):
I think it's, made us, closer.
I think we've really both had alot more anxiety just about
everything (18:46):
our kids, our parents, our family, our
spouses, everything.
I definitely saw her.
more in the, months after mybrother than I had probably
ever, except for when we livedtogether at home, just because,
she went to college and then shemoved away.
And, so it's not like we wereseeing each other every single
day for our lives.
(19:07):
and so I think it made usrealize that, we should spend as
much time with our family as wecan.
Dr. Dean (19:14):
hmm.
Thank you for sharing that.
It sounds like your parents gotthe support, but you hinted at
that you didn't have the samekind of support.
Taylor Hershman (19:23):
I did.
I definitely have, great supportin terms of a great friend group
and my parents' friend groupwho, really reached out to my
sister and me as well, and theywere always very thoughtful of
us and they continued to be,What I mean by that is, for
example, when I was goingthrough infertility, I could
(19:44):
follow infertility hashtags.
I joined infertility supportgroups.
I created, an infertility basedInstagram.
Dr. Dean (19:53):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (19:54):
There wasn't really a lot of stuff or groups,
for sibling loss.
And fortunately, I don't know alot of people that have
experienced that.
But then the downside, if youwant to call it that, is that I
couldn't find specific siblingloss support groups, or I don't
have, close friends who alsolost a sibling that I can really
(20:16):
connect with, like I couldthrough miscarriages and things
like that.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (20:21):
Which is precisely why we were talking because I found
the same thing and here we are.
So hopefully we will changethat.
and I'm glad that you found us.
Thank you for clarifying.
It is a unique loss, so it doesrequire some unique support.
Where are you now in yourgrieving process, realizing
grief is never ending?
Taylor Hershman (20:38):
It changes day to day.
Dr. Dean (20:40):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (20:41):
I found a therapist in the middle of last
year that helped tremendously.
We worked on, a two prongedapproach to my therapy first
with, processing the trauma thatboth of losing my brother and
of, almost, losing my daughterand then also supplemented that
(21:01):
with grief support.
And that was something prior tothat.
I didn't have.
I had worked with a variety oftherapists and, they were good
for what I needed at the time.
But then when my brother passed,it was completely different.
I needed something muchdifferent than what I was
dealing with.
And so that helped me a lot.
(21:23):
I feel like I'm not in a placewhere I'm, drowning every day
anymore, like I was for a while.
It comes and goes, I think thereare, days and weeks where I feel
okay.
And I think about my brotherevery day, but it's, thinking
back on happy memories and, justmore kind of normal sadness, if
(21:46):
you will.
And then there are times I thinkwhen it's hardest is thinking
about the future.
And thinking about the things hewon't be here for.
It's really interesting becausemy daughters were nine months
old when he passed.
(22:08):
So they only got to meet him ahandful of times.
And so after, like I said, yearsof struggling to have these
girls, and then they werefinally here and finally getting
to see them, be alive and behere and grow up and have a
first birthday whilesimultaneously, my brother being
(22:32):
absent from a lot of things.
It was like living in thisparadox of experiencing life and
death at the same time and beingso excited to celebrate their
first birthday.
But being so sad that he wasn'there,
Dr. Dean (22:52):
Yeah.
How did you find the balance inthat paradox?
Taylor Hershman (23:01):
It's hard.
I think something that we reallytry to do is to keep him alive.
My daughters, they're only two,but for all they know, he's
around and they talk about him.
They know him.
We, tell stories about him andjust bring them up in casual
(23:22):
conversation, show him picturesof them.
He was a huge basketball playerand for Christmas this year, we
got them a little Fisher pricehoop and we told him it's from
Uncle Ben.
And so allowing him to still bepresent in their lives I think
has helped a lot.
Dr. Dean (23:43):
I love that you're making sure Uncle Ben is present
and that they know who he is.
And it sounds like you're alsotrying to have a continuing
relationship with him.
I wonder what that looks likefor you.
Taylor Hershman (23:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
in some ways it's easy for mesince he did live out of state
for so many years to, justpretend like he's still there in
a way.
And, trying to find the healthyboundaries with that.
And how can I, do that in ahealthy way.
But we do try to include him ineverything that we do still.
(24:21):
So whether that's, Including himin conversations with my girls.
we have a scholarship that weset up for him that people
donated to that we give, nowevery year to high schoolers
where we went to, still,communicating with him in our
own ways.
I'm really into signs andmediums and, communicating with
(24:41):
him still, on the other side.
So he's really into music.
he was.
when he was alive, he was veryinto music.
It was ingrained in him from thetime he was, young.
and so songs that he will sendus, numbers, we'll see his
basketball Jersey, his numberseverywhere.
(25:02):
He was a really big technologyguy.
So, he's always messing with ourtechnology.
In fact, after we spoke onFriday, I was like, wait a
minute, was that Ben, becausethat's something he would do.
Dr. Dean (25:15):
For the listeners, we tried to record this and then
had a whole bunch of tech issuesand had to re record it two days
later.
Taylor Hershman (25:21):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (25:21):
Go ahead.
Taylor Hershman (25:22):
yeah.
So that's absolutely somethingthat he would do.
I write to him sometimes justrandom thoughts, that I just
think, or if there's tick tocks,I want to send him, I'll still
send them to him.
Dr. Dean (25:38):
I love that.
I'm just curious, what is thebasketball number?
Taylor Hershman (25:42):
34.
Dr. Dean (25:44):
34.
Okay.
Taylor Hershman (25:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (25:45):
And you see that pretty much everywhere, it
sounds
Taylor Hershman (25:47):
A lot.
Yeah, we see it a lot of places.
yeah, it's, there's been a lotof weird stuff with technology.
My dad randomly had a pindropped on a Google Maps or
Apple Maps, whatever, you candrop a pin on a location and,
long story short, he I was like,what is this?
And zoomed out and he had justbeen looking at, they were going
to Portugal and he was lookingat a map in Portugal and he
zoomed out and it was in Denver,which he thought was crazy.
(26:09):
Cause that's where Ben lived.
He's wow, that's so weird.
How did this happen?
I haven't looked up Denver on mymaps and a year or whatever at
this time.
And then my mom said, look atthe location, where is it?
And.
Long story short, they Googledit and it was Ben's work
address.
They had never been therebefore.
They had never looked updirections there before Ben,
(26:31):
worked remotely most part.
And so it was just, prettypeculiar how that would have
happened.
So we really choose to, believethat he is still communicating
with us and I very much thinkthat he is.
Dr. Dean (26:44):
On that note, you mentioned earlier that, about
mediums.
And I'm very curious about thisbecause a lot of guests have
mentioned their experiences withmediums.
I've not done that.
so I'm just curious if you wantto talk about that more.
Taylor Hershman (26:57):
yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I, I very much believe, in ascientific approach almost about
when we die.
I'm not a very religious person,but, we're, our bodies are,
we're more than blood andtissue, we're energy and, the,
There's a law of science thatstates that, energy is not
created or destroyed.
It's just, it's transferred intoanother form.
(27:18):
And so that's how I rationalizewhere we go when we pass, when
we're no longer physically here.
I think our energy is justtransported somewhere else.
And so I've always been veryopen to the idea of mediums and
Right after Ben passed, I didquite a few and I tried to be
very discreet, when I did it,like I, blocked my social media
(27:40):
and use the first name, lastinitial, and, just to protect
myself.
Cause I, I know that there'sauthentic ones and I know that
there's not, and a lot of themessaging, was really.
at the time we were dealing withsome kind of recurring health
problems with my daughter andone of the mediums had said
something along the lines ofhe's looking out for you, Quinn,
(28:01):
it's going to be okay, he's gother.
And the following day, we had totake her in for a procedure.
She required anesthesia.
I was very nervous about it.
And in between at the parkinglot, it was a full parking lot,
big hospital.
the one spot available was,between two cars and they were
both Brown Honda CRVs, and thatwas what he drove.
(28:21):
And it was just crazy to me.
what are the odds that's theonly spot available?
And it's right between his twocars.
And so there's been a lot of,messaging like that.
That's been really helpful.
something that they've all saidwas that he is sorry.
And he screwed up and it was notintentional.
(28:43):
And he, he acknowledges that,he, maybe didn't take it The
problem is seriously, as wethought, or, whatever that
interpretation is, but a lot ofthe messaging has been really
consistent.
I got a tattoo for him and therewas something along the lines of
that.
yeah, it's, it was, it's veryinteresting experience for sure.
Dr. Dean (29:08):
Thank you for sharing that.
so Uncle Ben is looking out foryour daughters as well.
Taylor Hershman (29:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
we have two other nieces and anephew and, they're a bit older
than mine.
They're 19, 17 and 11.
So he got a lot more time withthem, which is wonderful because
he was, Really born to be anuncle, I don't know if he ever
would have wanted his own kids,but he loved being an uncle.
(29:35):
He was an uncle very young whenhe was 10 years old and he loved
it.
And then the downside of that,is that they did know him
better.
So it was a hard loss for themas well.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (29:48):
Are there ways that you.
like to honor him?
It sounds like the anniversary,it's coming up in a couple
months, but are there ways youlike to honor him around certain
holidays or difficulties?
Taylor Hershman (30:00):
Yeah, I think the scholarship that we set up,
he was a very empathetic person.
He was very big on, you seesomeone on the street who might
be homeless or, down on theirluck, talk to them, you don't
have to give them money, butlike just acknowledge their
humanity was kind of hisphilosophy.
(30:20):
And he really cared about a lotof people.
different causes.
And so knowing that there's ascholarship in his name, I think
he would really appreciate and Ithink it really honors his
legacy.
we've also, sometimes it's hard,but have chosen to continue
living.
as obvious as that sounds, and Idon't mean living and kind of
(30:43):
skating by, which is sometimesall you can do, sometimes
there's days where you just,Yeah, where you're just sad.
But what I mean by that is,Christmas, the first year, the
few months after it's passing,we just couldn't, do a normal
Christmas.
it was one of the favoriteholidays and there's just so
much hype around it and it'ssuch kind of a big deal, for
some families.
(31:03):
And my parents always had a bigparty at their house and, So we
escaped and did an Airbnbsituation.
but then this year, we werestruggling with what to do.
And we didn't know, should we goaway?
Should we go back to the,normal, if you will, Christmas.
And my parents decided, Benloved Christmas.
He didn't love the gifts.
(31:24):
He always thought that was.
stupid but he loved thecelebration of it and they said
that's what he would want us todo.
he wouldn't want us to sit thereand cry.
And so we did it.
We played games and we had agreat day and it's sad.
Of course.
you know, you definitely feel anabsence, but I think that's the
(31:46):
best way that we can Continue tohonor him is to continue living
and to continue doing the thingsthat he loved, animals, petting
dogs and eating cheeseburgersand listening to music and
sharing music, sharing music washis love language.
He loved discovering new music,sending it to people.
his friends, us.
(32:07):
And it wasn't just about themusic for him.
It was about the story of themusic.
Like what motivated this artistto get into music and to create
this song and this lyric andwhat does that mean?
And he was very deep.
And I think music gave him anopportunity to explore, explore
(32:30):
some depth.
Dr. Dean (32:32):
do you listen to his music now?
Taylor Hershman (32:35):
I do.
Yeah, I do.
Dr. Dean (32:36):
Is it music that you would have listened to before?
Taylor Hershman (32:40):
Most of it.
Yeah.
So he was really into, yeah, hewas really into electronic
music, house music, which, beingfour years older when he was
younger, I started to get intothat and I would go to music
festivals and things like that.
And I I'm not going to sayintroduced him because he
probably didn't, I probably did,but he was like, I'm not
listening to your music becauseyou're my older sister.
But we did go to a few, we wentto Lollapalooza, which is a big
(33:00):
musical festival in Chicagotogether.
we went to another concerttogether.
And so we did have, some,bonding over that, but there are
some songs, actually a song thathe sent my mom and sent some
friends and posted to hisInstagram just a week before he
passed.
And it's called Look at the Sky.
And The lyrics are look at thesky.
(33:21):
I'm still here.
Dr. Dean (33:23):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Taylor Hershman (33:25):
Yeah.
So listen, it's kind of hisanthem now when we think about
him.
Dr. Dean (33:33):
Thank you for sharing that.
I know you said there wasn't alot of information on Adderall
abuse.
And as you probably know by now,I'm a Psychologist.
Um, so I definitely want to lookinto that.
I might put something in theshow notes, but I'll definitely
update
Taylor Hershman (33:51):
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
for, I was prescribed Adderallas well when I was in college
and it helped in some ways.
And then I also know it, it'svery hard to get off of it.
I, experienced that firsthand.
Like I said, I was, experiencedinfertility and I had three
miscarriages in 2019 and itwasn't until That third
(34:13):
miscarriage where my doctor toldme, you need to stop taking
that.
And it wasn't what caused it,but it's not, conducive or the
best thing to take when you'repregnant or trying to get
pregnant.
And I got off of it right away.
but I needed someone to tell meand it wasn't like I was taking
a medication for, high bloodpressure or whatever, like it,
it was addictive.
(34:34):
And, I can certainly understandhow he got into a position where
he was abusing it the way thathe was.
it's unfortunate, but I canempathize with that because, I
wasn't abusing it like that, butI do know how it made me feel.
and
Dr. Dean (34:49):
Right.
Taylor Hershman (34:50):
got into a tricky spiral.
Dr. Dean (34:53):
It sounds like you have found empathy for him and
his situation.
Taylor Hershman (34:57):
Yeah, it did take some time.
Because at first I was just somad.
Dr. Dean (35:05):
Mm hmm.
Taylor Hershman (35:05):
I was like, how could you do this?
And even though I understood, Iunderstood addiction and I
wouldn't feel that way if he hadcancer, but I couldn't help it.
I still felt like, you knew thatthis was giving you a problem,
and you had such a badexperience with it, that led to
rehab.
How could you go back and takethis again?
(35:26):
But, addiction is not logical.
And he had.
Some demons that he was clearlyfighting.
Dr. Dean (35:36):
We talked about how misunderstood sibling loss is.
I'm just wondering if there arethings that you wish you knew in
those early days or that youwish that your friends and
family had known at that time.
Taylor Hershman (35:49):
yeah, I think just the understanding of grief
and how it works.
And I think people, and this issomething that I kind of noticed
when I was going throughinfertility as well, people want
to fix you and they want to saythings to shift your perspective
(36:10):
and make you realize, give youthe silver lining and stuff.
And with something like that,there's no silver lining, this
did not happen for a reason.
I hope he is in a better placeand I do believe that in a way,
but I also.
Don't want to hear that.
people who are struggling withgrief or anxiety or whatever.
They don't want to be fixed.
they want to be heard.
(36:31):
And I think sometimes it's okayto not know what to say.
that's something that I'vefound.
I can sometimes see people notknowing what to say to me.
And, I think, feel bad in a waybecause it's like you don't have
to say anything.
You're nothing that you're goingto tell me is going to make me
feel better or fix it orwhatever.
Just let me talk about it.
(36:52):
so that's been, something I'velearned.
And I think another thing thatI've learned is that grief is
not so much a process.
It's just a new way of life andIt lasts forever And I felt a
lot of guilt, you know in thefirst year or so When I would
not be sad when I would findmyself Hey, I haven't you know
(37:17):
been really down in the dumpsfor x amount of time a day or
however long And that's okay Istill feel that way sometimes,
like almost feeling guilty goingon with your life and continuing
to make new memories and havehappiness.
And I think that's a process toget to that point.
But even I remember likelaughing at a joke or something
(37:41):
a day or two after it happened,and I was like, how can you be
laughing right now?
But that's okay.
It's just part of life.
humans are very complicated.
We can feel.
multiple emotions at once.
Dr. Dean (37:51):
Yeah,
Taylor Hershman (37:51):
And so to allow yourself to feel multiple
emotions is okay.
Dr. Dean (37:58):
Thank you for that.
And I do think grief cannot befixed, unless someone has
figured out how to bring ourdeceased loved ones.
back.
I think it's slightly differentthan anxiety or depression where
you can't really fix the person,but there is symptom relief or
those things may resolve, but wecan't.
(38:18):
It's not like fixing a brokendoor.
Taylor Hershman (38:20):
exactly.
Yeah.
And there's an expectation, Ithink that the first year is the
hardest and that's something Iheard a lot.
And I don't necessarily agreewith that,
Dr. Dean (38:29):
not either.
Taylor Hershman (38:30):
Yeah.
I think the first year you're inshock or you're, trying to
process.
and then as time goes on,there's more distance between
you and you miss that personmore.
And so you learn how to copewith it a bit better, but it
doesn't get easier per se.
It just gets different.
Dr. Dean (38:49):
Exactly.
And I think with the siblingloss because you lost him.
He was 27.
Taylor Hershman (38:56):
He was 27.
Dr. Dean (38:57):
So you had 27 years with him and Hopefully you live
a long full life.
That's a really long time tolive without, him, right?
So adjusting to not having himthere for all of the big things,
like you said, and also the bighappy things, but also the very
(39:19):
difficult events that willhappen in your life.
Taylor Hershman (39:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
It's hard not to think too farahead.
it's hard not to think of wholelifetime ahead.
Dr. Dean (39:31):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (39:32):
yeah,
Dr. Dean (39:33):
And that's fair.
I think, you said you'relearning to live life and you
are living life and it's helpfulto think about, grief's always
in the background, right?
and how do you do that?
Taylor Hershman (39:44):
yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:45):
live life with this cloud behind you?
Feels different, but you'redoing it as best as you can.
Taylor Hershman (39:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Dean (39:54):
Are there other things that you wanted to share or any
thoughts that you had before Iask my last question?
Taylor Hershman (40:01):
I think just, something about him, something
about.
Ben was just the passion that hefelt for life.
he was passionate about so manythings, whether it was sports
or, looking up, he was like, butalways look up like maps and
look at the development ofDenver from 10 years ago
(40:24):
compared to now and send youcharts and graphs, and he was
just very passionate aboutpeople and his family and
learning and He was complex andvery deep, and I think that was
part of the best qualities inhim.
And I think it also led to someof his struggles, because he did
(40:45):
view the world differently.
like I said, he had this kind ofnormal, on paper life, and he
fit in socially, but he had aton of friends, but was very
introverted.
He was just a nuanced guy.
And I think it's something tothink about just as you're
meeting people.
Cause it's put into perspectivefor me.
(41:05):
Like he was having thesestruggles as my brother, who I
had a close relationship that Iwasn't fully aware of.
And so you don't know whatpeople are, going through behind
closed doors.
Dr. Dean (41:16):
Thank you.
That's a great reminder.
So do you have some favoritememories that you want to share
with us?
Taylor Hershman (41:23):
Yeah.
favorite memory that I have.
It's not one specific event.
It's just, like I said, he wasso into music and he had music
playing literally 24 7 and hewould walk around my parents
house with music playing out ofhis phone.
(41:50):
And just be going about his day,making lunch, getting in the
shower.
He'd have music blasting and Ican just hear him coming in the
back door, dropping down hiskeys and his music playing.
And I was like, can you pleaseturn that down?
I'm trying to work or I'm tryingto, whatever.
(42:13):
And he'd always turn my mom.
My mom has like talk radioplaying all day long and he
Alexa off and then turn on hisown music.
And it was something thatprobably annoyed me at the time.
But.
I do miss it.
Dr. Dean (42:25):
hmm.
I think that's so often in griefthat the things that we miss are
the things that either annoyedus or seemed small at the time
that made
Taylor Hershman (42:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (42:36):
who they were.
Taylor Hershman (42:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (42:37):
do you ever just blare the music
Taylor Hershman (42:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes I, I never really, getit quite as loud as he did
because, but yeah.
Dr. Dean (42:49):
Yeah.
Any other memories?
Taylor Hershman (42:52):
Yeah, I think, when he met my daughters, he was
nervous to hold them becausethey were so little and so
fragile and, been through somuch, but I'm so glad that he
did.
It was a really, special, aspecial memory to have.
And then the other memory is, wewould always go on family
vacations for spring break and.
(43:15):
He, you know, being a middleschooler, elementary school kid,
he would sit in the pool all daylong, and just drink, Strawberry
daiquiri, virgin strawberrydaiquiris and smoothies all day
long.
And we would just see his headfloating in the pool for hours
and hours and hours.
And I was always kind of like amom to him.
(43:35):
one year he actually got me amother's day card just to be
kind of a smart ass.
But, and I'd be like chasing himaround with sunscreen, but you
need to put sunscreen on, youneed to wear your sun shirt and
just getting after him.
But that was.
really our relationship dynamicand, he loved to just relax and
hang out and drink smoothies.
Dr. Dean (43:56):
Sounds great.
I hope that you will have somesmoothies this summer for him.
Taylor Hershman (44:01):
definitely.
Dr. Dean (44:02):
thank you so much for sharing about him and your loss.
And I'm glad that you were ableto chat today, that he didn't
mess with our technology again.
Taylor Hershman (44:11):
Yeah, I think he, uh, gave us a break today
and thank you so much for, theopportunity to speak with you,
but also for, the work that youare doing.
I think it's really, very neededand admirable that during your
own grief, found a hole and tryto fill it.
Cause I do think there's, ofneed for sibling specific
support.
(44:31):
So I
Dr. Dean (44:32):
Well, thank you.
You're welcome.
And thank you for, for thatfeedback.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
(44:52):
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Taylor shares her sibling lossstory with me about losing her
brother, Ben, to substance usedisorder, starting with Adderall
abuse.
I know that this topic may beupsetting to some people, so
listen with caution, but alsolisten to hear Taylor's
relationship with Ben and howdevastating losing him has been,
(00:56):
as well as the stigma forsubstance use disorder and how
that impacted her grief andother people's reactions to her
loss.
All right.
So how would you like tointroduce yourself to our
(01:16):
listeners?
Taylor Hershman (01:18):
Hi, Dr.
Dean.
I would like to introduce myselfby saying, my name is Taylor
Ortiz Herschman.
I am from the Chicago area,working in advertising sales.
I have two daughters, Quinn andCharlie.
And earlier, in 2022, I lost mylittle brother, Ben, when he was
27.
Dr. Dean (01:36):
Thank you for sharing that.
And, welcome to the show.
So before we dive into what itwas like to lose Ben, I'm
wondering what you would likemyself and our listeners to know
about Ben.
Taylor Hershman (01:49):
Sure.
So Ben was, a complicated guy.
He, lived life on his own path,if you will, which was
sometimes, one of the bestthings about him.
When I did his eulogy, when hepassed at a celebration of life,
something that I, came torealize after his passing was
that the little things, reallydidn't bother Ben as much as.
(02:12):
they do to the rest of us andthe big things were a much
bigger deal.
He was very empathetic, verysensitive, very opinionated,
competitive things like that.
Dr. Dean (02:22):
Hmm You said he was younger than you.
Taylor Hershman (02:25):
Yeah.
We're four years apart.
He was twenty-seven
Dr. Dean (02:28):
Do you have other siblings?
Taylor Hershman (02:30):
Yes.
We have an older sister, Laurie.
Dr. Dean (02:32):
Laurie.
Okay.
So you're right in the middle.
Yeah.
What was your relationship likewith him?
Either as kids or as adults orhowever you want to answer that.
Taylor Hershman (02:43):
Yeah, as kids, we definitely fought a lot.
We were four years apart.
there was a lot of bickeringgoing on, with us over the
years.
I do remember the first time itstarted to feel like we were
friends.
more than he was just anannoying sibling.
When he was in college, I wentto go stay with him for a night
(03:03):
and we went to a concert withsome of his friends and it was
the first time I felt like Oh,so I guess we could actually be
friends and you're more thanjust an annoying little brother.
We always were very close, butwe were really different.
We argued a lot nothing major.
We always had a really goodrelationship, but it definitely,
as we got older, evolved frommore of a little brother, older
(03:24):
sister relationship into more ofone that's like friends.
Dr. Dean (03:28):
What are you comfortable sharing with our
audience about losing yourbrother?
Taylor Hershman (03:34):
Ben always lived, like I said, to the beat
of his own drum, if you will.
He moved to Denver after hegraduated college.
He always lived on paper, thisquote unquote normal life.
He had a lot of friends.
He was really, a greatbasketball player.
He played in college.
He won a lot of awards andtournaments and things like
(03:55):
that.
So on paper, it was, like helived the life that, quote
unquote.
Yeah.
is normal.
but I think he struggled becausehe didn't feel like he was meant
to live a life like that.
looking back, it's what that,what it seems like.
One of his friends described itto us is that he was almost
living on a different plane ofthe universe.
he was a little enlightened andlike I said, the big things,
(04:18):
mattered a lot more to him.
The little things being, likestudying and stuff like that
just wasn't quite as importantto him.
He had some, problems in schoolwhen he was in high school, not
turning in homework or notstudying for tests.
And, he was always so smart.
One of his teachers, in seventhgrade, had to call my mom about,
(04:40):
he didn't turn in his paper and,just the typical thing for a
young student sometimes and shesaid, I don't know any other
seventh grader who knowsanything about what's going on
in Darfur, except for Ben, buthe doesn't like to do his
English homework, so he was verysmart, really into research and
things like that, but was on hisown terms.
When he was probably in highschool, my parents took him to
(05:03):
the doctor and they prescribedhim Adderall.
And at the time, this was, 10,15 years ago.
And, my parents weren't reallysure how they felt about it, but
they really trusted this doctorand it seemed to help.
He stayed on it for, all of highschool, college, things like
that.
And then when he grew up, andmoved out on his own, he
continued taking it.
(05:23):
It wasn't something that healways communicated about, but
we did know that he was stillbeing prescribed it.
And then in 2022, things took aturn with him.
One day kind of out of nowhere,we started getting some texts
from him really early on aSunday morning.
And it was clear that somethingwas not right.
(05:44):
He wasn't making any sense.
he was essentially, it seemedlike he was hallucinating.
And.
It was very disturbing to seethat because we knew something
was wrong and we felt verypowerless, like what can we do
from Illinois, for a 27 year oldman in Denver?
Dr. Dean (06:00):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (06:01):
Luckily he had, friends in the area that we
could reach out to they wouldn'tchecked on them.
We were able to get a welfarecheck.
And my parents almostimmediately.
got on a flight to Denver andwe're there by that night.
A mental health professionalarrived and, long story short,
he agreed to go to the hospitaland.
(06:21):
we didn't know what it was atthis point.
is it some type of mental healthepisode?
What's going on?
And, they ran a whole bunch oftests, physical tests, as well
as mental evaluations.
And it turns out that he hadbeen abusing Adderall and the
lack of sleep and the, unhealthyamounts of Adderall that he was
taking essentially led to apsychosis, episode.
(06:45):
So it was a lot to process.
You hear about Adderall as adrug that helps people.
And I do believe that, somepeople do benefit from it, but
it's so normalized in oursociety.
So it felt like how cansomething seemingly, so innocent
cause this kind of damage.
And so, my parents were therewith him for several days.
(07:08):
He was in the hospital for acouple of days and he agreed to
go to rehab.
When he agreed to go to rehab,we were very proud of him, cause
it wasn't an easy step to takeand he agreed pretty much right
away.
Dr. Dean (07:25):
So it sounds like you learned that he was struggling
with this around the same timethat you were able to support
him in that moment.
Taylor Hershman (07:33):
yes, yeah.
So my parents, yeah.
they acted quickly.
They were there as fast as theycould be.
Ben was.
was willing to go to rehab andhe went almost immediately and
he did really well there.
I think something that we reallystruggled with and that he did
too is that again, Adderallcompared to heroin or meth or
(07:58):
all these other drugs, it soundsa lot more innocent and it is
when you look at, So I think itwas hard for him to take it
seriously.
He felt like, I'm with peoplewho are struggling with things a
lot worse.
It seemed like he felt like hejust had a bad reaction to the
medication.
It's how he described it.
My family is really close andhe's really close with my
parents and he wanted to, Ithink maybe appease them and,
(08:19):
alleviate some of theirconcerns.
So he did do 30 days It seemedlike he was doing well.
He got this kind of, resurgenceof motivation and, to start
working out again and to, he wasdoing better at work and things
like that.
And then, he came home in thesummer for a couple of days for
our grandpa had passed away.
So for his celebration of life,and that was at the end of June,
(08:40):
he stayed for a couple of weeks,went home right after the 4th of
July, and then.
A week later, he had passed.
It was pretty quick, from whenthe time we found out he was
struggling until the day that hedied.
Dr. Dean (08:58):
Yeah.
That sounds like it was prettyshocking for you.
Taylor Hershman (09:01):
It was, yeah.
He was struggling with thesubstance, clearly.
We worried about it evolving toother things, like when the
Adderall wasn't enough, thenwhat?
We found out what happened in areally difficult way.
and we assumed it was fentanylor something like that, that you
hear of quite often.
I've scoured the internet andhaven't been able to find any
(09:21):
stories of anyone dying fromAdderall.
I know that, it is a veryaddictive substance and people
do struggle with that, but itfelt like it was out of nowhere
in the sense that we didn'texpect him to, past a couple of
months after getting out ofrehab and it wasn't expected in
a way.
The last time I saw him was theday after my grandpa's
(09:45):
celebration of life.
And my last memory of him is avery positive one.
Dr. Dean (09:55):
Mm hmm.
Taylor Hershman (09:59):
We said goodbye.
He was going back to Denver.
I was going back to my housewith my kids and my husband and
he gave me a big hug and hesaid, I love you.
And that was that.
I got into my car.
outside my parents house with myhusband driving and I just
started crying because I justhad this feeling.
(10:25):
Part of it was probably, youknow, I was just emotional from
the last few days of sayinggoodbye to my grandpa, but I
just had this terrible feelingabout my brother.
And I remember telling myhusband, Sean, I said, he's just
never going to live the quote,normal life.
I just had this feeling that hewould always struggle.
(10:50):
And I think, I don't know if itwas just a bad feeling that I
had or what, a week later he wasgone.
So.
Dr. Dean (11:00):
So that's a lot of loss.
Yeah.
You had loss after loss and
Taylor Hershman (11:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very difficult year.
2021 was a really hard year forme with my daughters and their
health issues and born early andthings like that.
And so when it was time for,2022 to roll around, I felt
okay, this is the time.
This is the year.
Things are going to go back tonormal.
after years of infertility andpreterm birth and almost losing
(11:30):
my daughter in 2021, I feltentitled almost to things to
turn around.
I felt like the universe owes me
Dr. Dean (11:38):
yeah.
Taylor Hershman (11:39):
And then it was my grandpa in February, which is
sad, but part of life.
My brother in, in July, and thennot even a year later, a close
cousin.
So it was, a lot, packed into toone.
Dr. Dean (11:53):
Yeah.
that is a lot of loss.
And the infertility loss, thepreterm and what you expected,
that's a loss.
And Yeah, it, I like how youidentified there was this sense
of, I don't know, entitlement orthat I'm just entitled to this
life going right now, and thatdidn't happen.
I wonder how that impactedgrieving for Ben I mean, it's
(12:15):
all awful
Taylor Hershman (12:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think, at the time I wasalready really, struggling with,
some PTSD.
long story short, I had to givemy, she was three months old at
the time I had to give her CPR.
And so I was, really in a toughplace.
mentally.
I was, having a really hard timerecovering from that.
And so then when my brotherpassed, it felt like it was just
(12:40):
almost validated that okay, lifeis going to be hard from now on.
And it was really compoundedtrauma on top of trauma from the
year prior.
I think it definitelyintensified it.
It's something that I've, spokenwith my therapist a lot about is
how I've had these bad thingshappen, pretty close together.
(13:02):
And so it's really heightened myanxiety because she's of course
you always think somethingterrible is about to happen
because something terrible didhappen a lot, a lot of times in,
a year and it didn't make, Ithink, grieving, I don't know,
different, I guess, because itwas not just a feeling of
sadness, it was, there was a lotof trauma involved and kind of
(13:26):
processing the day that we foundout what happened and how that
all transpired is something thatI've, really struggled with.
And my family has reallystruggled with too.
Dr. Dean (13:39):
It sounds like you, you pull together as a family.
Taylor Hershman (13:42):
Yeah, definitely.
I don't mind talking about, highlevel what happened.
When we found out, because Ithink that is part of it.
Basically, my family is veryclose.
My brother, my sister and myparents and I, we have a group
chat and we talk, pretty muchevery day, several times a day.
And it was, a Monday and,around, six o'clock that night,
(14:03):
my mom texted me and said, haveyou heard from Ben?
And when she said that, I justknew He talked to my mom all the
time, no matter what he wasdoing, he always responded to
her.
And as the night went on and westill hadn't heard from him, I
just knew.
And part of what was difficultwas that, the process of getting
(14:26):
police over to his apartment wasvery long and very tedious.
My parents were up the entirenight calling the police and
they were never notified of whathappened.
To this day, they haven't beennotified.
And, it's really hard because itfeels, a bit disrespectful, to
my brother and, they ended uphaving to call the morgue to
(14:49):
find out.
And that's just,
Dr. Dean (14:51):
Oh,
Taylor Hershman (14:52):
yeah, not a pleasant, not that there's any
pleasant way, but it just wasreally dragged out the whole
process.
Dr. Dean (15:03):
yeah, that's pretty awful.
Taylor Hershman (15:04):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (15:06):
I'm so sorry that you had that experience.
Taylor Hershman (15:08):
yeah, thank you.
Dr. Dean (15:10):
You're welcome.
And I can see how that alsobecomes a complication and
processing trauma for you.
Taylor Hershman (15:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
Anytime I get a phone call, youknow, it's like, oh my God, what
happened?
if my parents or my sister or myhusband or whoever doesn't
answer me pretty muchimmediately, I panic.
My mom took a nap.
This was a year ago or so, andshe took a nap, and I was on an
airplane, and she didn't answermy text, and I just freaked out,
(15:39):
for lack of better terms, andhad her neighbor come over,
broke into their house,basically, and she's oh, she's
sleeping.
I walked into her bedroom.
It's, hard to recover from that.
Dr. Dean (15:47):
Yeah, and I think that's something that so many of
us experience is like that phonecall like now you don't want
like at least for some time Ithink it's pretty common that
the phone rings and you're likeokay especially in day and age
of texting that the phone evenrings.
How did you feel supported ornot in those days after like
(16:09):
that immediate time period after
Taylor Hershman (16:11):
Yeah.
Immediately after I rememberthinking, I don't know what to
do.
I remember thinking, I wonder ifmy parents want me to come over.
of course they did, but I just,I didn't know what to do.
And so I called my husbandupstairs.
I asked him"What should I do?
Should I go there?" And he said,"Yes, of course go there." And
(16:33):
by the time I got there, theirhouse was, pretty full of their
friends.
They have amazing supportsystem.
And they had people just really,surrounding them for days and
weeks, and even still.
They're very fortunate in thatregard.
I think, Ben has an amazinggroup of friends to this day,
(16:57):
and they have been such a greatsupport because they continue to
talk about him and remember him.
And that's made a hugedifference.
Dr. Dean (17:12):
hmm Mm
Taylor Hershman (17:13):
I think something that is hard is, for
siblings specifically.
There's not a lot of places thatare specific to sibling loss.
And I think it is a unique loss.
I think that, as a parent andseeing my parents lose a child,
(17:33):
it's absolutely devastating and,something I can't fathom.
but with siblings, I think it'sa little misunderstood maybe.
Dr. Dean (17:42):
Precisely, but I think that's that exact phrase is on
my website anytime Sibling Lossis Misunderstood™.
Taylor Hershman (17:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
it's not the same thing as, agrandparent It really defies the
cycle and the circle of life.
I, my brother was younger, so Ijust assumed he would be with us
for my whole life.
And it really, disrupts yourworld and how you move about the
(18:10):
rest of your life.
Dr. Dean (18:13):
How has your relationship with your sister
changed after this?
Taylor Hershman (18:16):
We were always very close and we continue to be
very close.
My family dynamic is a littledifferent.
My sister and I are 13 yearsapart and she and my brother are
17 years apart.
Growing up, even though we had alarge age difference, we still
always had a very goodrelationship.
She was, a great older sister toboth of us.
(18:37):
I think it's, made us, closer.
I think we've really both had alot more anxiety just about
everything (18:46):
our kids, our parents, our family, our
spouses, everything.
I definitely saw her.
more in the, months after mybrother than I had probably
ever, except for when we livedtogether at home, just because,
she went to college and then shemoved away.
And, so it's not like we wereseeing each other every single
day for our lives.
(19:07):
and so I think it made usrealize that, we should spend as
much time with our family as wecan.
Dr. Dean (19:14):
hmm.
Thank you for sharing that.
It sounds like your parents gotthe support, but you hinted at
that you didn't have the samekind of support.
Taylor Hershman (19:23):
I did.
I definitely have, great supportin terms of a great friend group
and my parents' friend groupwho, really reached out to my
sister and me as well, and theywere always very thoughtful of
us and they continued to be,What I mean by that is, for
example, when I was goingthrough infertility, I could
(19:44):
follow infertility hashtags.
I joined infertility supportgroups.
I created, an infertility basedInstagram.
Dr. Dean (19:53):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (19:54):
There wasn't really a lot of stuff or groups,
for sibling loss.
And fortunately, I don't know alot of people that have
experienced that.
But then the downside, if youwant to call it that, is that I
couldn't find specific siblingloss support groups, or I don't
have, close friends who alsolost a sibling that I can really
(20:16):
connect with, like I couldthrough miscarriages and things
like that.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (20:21):
Which is precisely why we were talking because I found
the same thing and here we are.
So hopefully we will changethat.
and I'm glad that you found us.
Thank you for clarifying.
It is a unique loss, so it doesrequire some unique support.
Where are you now in yourgrieving process, realizing
grief is never ending?
Taylor Hershman (20:38):
It changes day to day.
Dr. Dean (20:40):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (20:41):
I found a therapist in the middle of last
year that helped tremendously.
We worked on, a two prongedapproach to my therapy first
with, processing the trauma thatboth of losing my brother and
of, almost, losing my daughterand then also supplemented that
(21:01):
with grief support.
And that was something prior tothat.
I didn't have.
I had worked with a variety oftherapists and, they were good
for what I needed at the time.
But then when my brother passed,it was completely different.
I needed something muchdifferent than what I was
dealing with.
And so that helped me a lot.
(21:23):
I feel like I'm not in a placewhere I'm, drowning every day
anymore, like I was for a while.
It comes and goes, I think thereare, days and weeks where I feel
okay.
And I think about my brotherevery day, but it's, thinking
back on happy memories and, justmore kind of normal sadness, if
(21:46):
you will.
And then there are times I thinkwhen it's hardest is thinking
about the future.
And thinking about the things hewon't be here for.
It's really interesting becausemy daughters were nine months
old when he passed.
(22:08):
So they only got to meet him ahandful of times.
And so after, like I said, yearsof struggling to have these
girls, and then they werefinally here and finally getting
to see them, be alive and behere and grow up and have a
first birthday whilesimultaneously, my brother being
(22:32):
absent from a lot of things.
It was like living in thisparadox of experiencing life and
death at the same time and beingso excited to celebrate their
first birthday.
But being so sad that he wasn'there,
Dr. Dean (22:52):
Yeah.
How did you find the balance inthat paradox?
Taylor Hershman (23:01):
It's hard.
I think something that we reallytry to do is to keep him alive.
My daughters, they're only two,but for all they know, he's
around and they talk about him.
They know him.
We, tell stories about him andjust bring them up in casual
(23:22):
conversation, show him picturesof them.
He was a huge basketball playerand for Christmas this year, we
got them a little Fisher pricehoop and we told him it's from
Uncle Ben.
And so allowing him to still bepresent in their lives I think
has helped a lot.
Dr. Dean (23:43):
I love that you're making sure Uncle Ben is present
and that they know who he is.
And it sounds like you're alsotrying to have a continuing
relationship with him.
I wonder what that looks likefor you.
Taylor Hershman (23:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
in some ways it's easy for mesince he did live out of state
for so many years to, justpretend like he's still there in
a way.
And, trying to find the healthyboundaries with that.
And how can I, do that in ahealthy way.
But we do try to include him ineverything that we do still.
(24:21):
So whether that's, Including himin conversations with my girls.
we have a scholarship that weset up for him that people
donated to that we give, nowevery year to high schoolers
where we went to, still,communicating with him in our
own ways.
I'm really into signs andmediums and, communicating with
(24:41):
him still, on the other side.
So he's really into music.
he was.
when he was alive, he was veryinto music.
It was ingrained in him from thetime he was, young.
and so songs that he will sendus, numbers, we'll see his
basketball Jersey, his numberseverywhere.
(25:02):
He was a really big technologyguy.
So, he's always messing with ourtechnology.
In fact, after we spoke onFriday, I was like, wait a
minute, was that Ben, becausethat's something he would do.
Dr. Dean (25:15):
For the listeners, we tried to record this and then
had a whole bunch of tech issuesand had to re record it two days
later.
Taylor Hershman (25:21):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (25:21):
Go ahead.
Taylor Hershman (25:22):
yeah.
So that's absolutely somethingthat he would do.
I write to him sometimes justrandom thoughts, that I just
think, or if there's tick tocks,I want to send him, I'll still
send them to him.
Dr. Dean (25:38):
I love that.
I'm just curious, what is thebasketball number?
Taylor Hershman (25:42):
34.
Dr. Dean (25:44):
34.
Okay.
Taylor Hershman (25:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (25:45):
And you see that pretty much everywhere, it
sounds
Taylor Hershman (25:47):
A lot.
Yeah, we see it a lot of places.
yeah, it's, there's been a lotof weird stuff with technology.
My dad randomly had a pindropped on a Google Maps or
Apple Maps, whatever, you candrop a pin on a location and,
long story short, he I was like,what is this?
And zoomed out and he had justbeen looking at, they were going
to Portugal and he was lookingat a map in Portugal and he
zoomed out and it was in Denver,which he thought was crazy.
(26:09):
Cause that's where Ben lived.
He's wow, that's so weird.
How did this happen?
I haven't looked up Denver on mymaps and a year or whatever at
this time.
And then my mom said, look atthe location, where is it?
And.
Long story short, they Googledit and it was Ben's work
address.
They had never been therebefore.
They had never looked updirections there before Ben,
(26:31):
worked remotely most part.
And so it was just, prettypeculiar how that would have
happened.
So we really choose to, believethat he is still communicating
with us and I very much thinkthat he is.
Dr. Dean (26:44):
On that note, you mentioned earlier that, about
mediums.
And I'm very curious about thisbecause a lot of guests have
mentioned their experiences withmediums.
I've not done that.
so I'm just curious if you wantto talk about that more.
Taylor Hershman (26:57):
yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I, I very much believe, in ascientific approach almost about
when we die.
I'm not a very religious person,but, we're, our bodies are,
we're more than blood andtissue, we're energy and, the,
There's a law of science thatstates that, energy is not
created or destroyed.
It's just, it's transferred intoanother form.
(27:18):
And so that's how I rationalizewhere we go when we pass, when
we're no longer physically here.
I think our energy is justtransported somewhere else.
And so I've always been veryopen to the idea of mediums and
Right after Ben passed, I didquite a few and I tried to be
very discreet, when I did it,like I, blocked my social media
(27:40):
and use the first name, lastinitial, and, just to protect
myself.
Cause I, I know that there'sauthentic ones and I know that
there's not, and a lot of themessaging, was really.
at the time we were dealing withsome kind of recurring health
problems with my daughter andone of the mediums had said
something along the lines ofhe's looking out for you, Quinn,
(28:01):
it's going to be okay, he's gother.
And the following day, we had totake her in for a procedure.
She required anesthesia.
I was very nervous about it.
And in between at the parkinglot, it was a full parking lot,
big hospital.
the one spot available was,between two cars and they were
both Brown Honda CRVs, and thatwas what he drove.
(28:21):
And it was just crazy to me.
what are the odds that's theonly spot available?
And it's right between his twocars.
And so there's been a lot of,messaging like that.
That's been really helpful.
something that they've all saidwas that he is sorry.
And he screwed up and it was notintentional.
(28:43):
And he, he acknowledges that,he, maybe didn't take it The
problem is seriously, as wethought, or, whatever that
interpretation is, but a lot ofthe messaging has been really
consistent.
I got a tattoo for him and therewas something along the lines of
that.
yeah, it's, it was, it's veryinteresting experience for sure.
Dr. Dean (29:08):
Thank you for sharing that.
so Uncle Ben is looking out foryour daughters as well.
Taylor Hershman (29:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
we have two other nieces and anephew and, they're a bit older
than mine.
They're 19, 17 and 11.
So he got a lot more time withthem, which is wonderful because
he was, Really born to be anuncle, I don't know if he ever
would have wanted his own kids,but he loved being an uncle.
(29:35):
He was an uncle very young whenhe was 10 years old and he loved
it.
And then the downside of that,is that they did know him
better.
So it was a hard loss for themas well.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (29:48):
Are there ways that you.
like to honor him?
It sounds like the anniversary,it's coming up in a couple
months, but are there ways youlike to honor him around certain
holidays or difficulties?
Taylor Hershman (30:00):
Yeah, I think the scholarship that we set up,
he was a very empathetic person.
He was very big on, you seesomeone on the street who might
be homeless or, down on theirluck, talk to them, you don't
have to give them money, butlike just acknowledge their
humanity was kind of hisphilosophy.
(30:20):
And he really cared about a lotof people.
different causes.
And so knowing that there's ascholarship in his name, I think
he would really appreciate and Ithink it really honors his
legacy.
we've also, sometimes it's hard,but have chosen to continue
living.
as obvious as that sounds, and Idon't mean living and kind of
(30:43):
skating by, which is sometimesall you can do, sometimes
there's days where you just,Yeah, where you're just sad.
But what I mean by that is,Christmas, the first year, the
few months after it's passing,we just couldn't, do a normal
Christmas.
it was one of the favoriteholidays and there's just so
much hype around it and it'ssuch kind of a big deal, for
some families.
(31:03):
And my parents always had a bigparty at their house and, So we
escaped and did an Airbnbsituation.
but then this year, we werestruggling with what to do.
And we didn't know, should we goaway?
Should we go back to the,normal, if you will, Christmas.
And my parents decided, Benloved Christmas.
He didn't love the gifts.
(31:24):
He always thought that was.
stupid but he loved thecelebration of it and they said
that's what he would want us todo.
he wouldn't want us to sit thereand cry.
And so we did it.
We played games and we had agreat day and it's sad.
Of course.
you know, you definitely feel anabsence, but I think that's the
(31:46):
best way that we can Continue tohonor him is to continue living
and to continue doing the thingsthat he loved, animals, petting
dogs and eating cheeseburgersand listening to music and
sharing music, sharing music washis love language.
He loved discovering new music,sending it to people.
his friends, us.
(32:07):
And it wasn't just about themusic for him.
It was about the story of themusic.
Like what motivated this artistto get into music and to create
this song and this lyric andwhat does that mean?
And he was very deep.
And I think music gave him anopportunity to explore, explore
(32:30):
some depth.
Dr. Dean (32:32):
do you listen to his music now?
Taylor Hershman (32:35):
I do.
Yeah, I do.
Dr. Dean (32:36):
Is it music that you would have listened to before?
Taylor Hershman (32:40):
Most of it.
Yeah.
So he was really into, yeah, hewas really into electronic
music, house music, which, beingfour years older when he was
younger, I started to get intothat and I would go to music
festivals and things like that.
And I I'm not going to sayintroduced him because he
probably didn't, I probably did,but he was like, I'm not
listening to your music becauseyou're my older sister.
But we did go to a few, we wentto Lollapalooza, which is a big
(33:00):
musical festival in Chicagotogether.
we went to another concerttogether.
And so we did have, some,bonding over that, but there are
some songs, actually a song thathe sent my mom and sent some
friends and posted to hisInstagram just a week before he
passed.
And it's called Look at the Sky.
And The lyrics are look at thesky.
(33:21):
I'm still here.
Dr. Dean (33:23):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Taylor Hershman (33:25):
Yeah.
So listen, it's kind of hisanthem now when we think about
him.
Dr. Dean (33:33):
Thank you for sharing that.
I know you said there wasn't alot of information on Adderall
abuse.
And as you probably know by now,I'm a Psychologist.
Um, so I definitely want to lookinto that.
I might put something in theshow notes, but I'll definitely
update
Taylor Hershman (33:51):
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
for, I was prescribed Adderallas well when I was in college
and it helped in some ways.
And then I also know it, it'svery hard to get off of it.
I, experienced that firsthand.
Like I said, I was, experiencedinfertility and I had three
miscarriages in 2019 and itwasn't until That third
(34:13):
miscarriage where my doctor toldme, you need to stop taking
that.
And it wasn't what caused it,but it's not, conducive or the
best thing to take when you'repregnant or trying to get
pregnant.
And I got off of it right away.
but I needed someone to tell meand it wasn't like I was taking
a medication for, high bloodpressure or whatever, like it,
it was addictive.
(34:34):
And, I can certainly understandhow he got into a position where
he was abusing it the way thathe was.
it's unfortunate, but I canempathize with that because, I
wasn't abusing it like that, butI do know how it made me feel.
and
Dr. Dean (34:49):
Right.
Taylor Hershman (34:50):
got into a tricky spiral.
Dr. Dean (34:53):
It sounds like you have found empathy for him and
his situation.
Taylor Hershman (34:57):
Yeah, it did take some time.
Because at first I was just somad.
Dr. Dean (35:05):
Mm hmm.
Taylor Hershman (35:05):
I was like, how could you do this?
And even though I understood, Iunderstood addiction and I
wouldn't feel that way if he hadcancer, but I couldn't help it.
I still felt like, you knew thatthis was giving you a problem,
and you had such a badexperience with it, that led to
rehab.
How could you go back and takethis again?
(35:26):
But, addiction is not logical.
And he had.
Some demons that he was clearlyfighting.
Dr. Dean (35:36):
We talked about how misunderstood sibling loss is.
I'm just wondering if there arethings that you wish you knew in
those early days or that youwish that your friends and
family had known at that time.
Taylor Hershman (35:49):
yeah, I think just the understanding of grief
and how it works.
And I think people, and this issomething that I kind of noticed
when I was going throughinfertility as well, people want
to fix you and they want to saythings to shift your perspective
(36:10):
and make you realize, give youthe silver lining and stuff.
And with something like that,there's no silver lining, this
did not happen for a reason.
I hope he is in a better placeand I do believe that in a way,
but I also.
Don't want to hear that.
people who are struggling withgrief or anxiety or whatever.
They don't want to be fixed.
they want to be heard.
(36:31):
And I think sometimes it's okayto not know what to say.
that's something that I'vefound.
I can sometimes see people notknowing what to say to me.
And, I think, feel bad in a waybecause it's like you don't have
to say anything.
You're nothing that you're goingto tell me is going to make me
feel better or fix it orwhatever.
Just let me talk about it.
(36:52):
so that's been, something I'velearned.
And I think another thing thatI've learned is that grief is
not so much a process.
It's just a new way of life andIt lasts forever And I felt a
lot of guilt, you know in thefirst year or so When I would
not be sad when I would findmyself Hey, I haven't you know
(37:17):
been really down in the dumpsfor x amount of time a day or
however long And that's okay Istill feel that way sometimes,
like almost feeling guilty goingon with your life and continuing
to make new memories and havehappiness.
And I think that's a process toget to that point.
But even I remember likelaughing at a joke or something
(37:41):
a day or two after it happened,and I was like, how can you be
laughing right now?
But that's okay.
It's just part of life.
humans are very complicated.
We can feel.
multiple emotions at once.
Dr. Dean (37:51):
Yeah,
Taylor Hershman (37:51):
And so to allow yourself to feel multiple
emotions is okay.
Dr. Dean (37:58):
Thank you for that.
And I do think grief cannot befixed, unless someone has
figured out how to bring ourdeceased loved ones.
back.
I think it's slightly differentthan anxiety or depression where
you can't really fix the person,but there is symptom relief or
those things may resolve, but wecan't.
(38:18):
It's not like fixing a brokendoor.
Taylor Hershman (38:20):
exactly.
Yeah.
And there's an expectation, Ithink that the first year is the
hardest and that's something Iheard a lot.
And I don't necessarily agreewith that,
Dr. Dean (38:29):
not either.
Taylor Hershman (38:30):
Yeah.
I think the first year you're inshock or you're, trying to
process.
and then as time goes on,there's more distance between
you and you miss that personmore.
And so you learn how to copewith it a bit better, but it
doesn't get easier per se.
It just gets different.
Dr. Dean (38:49):
Exactly.
And I think with the siblingloss because you lost him.
He was 27.
Taylor Hershman (38:56):
He was 27.
Dr. Dean (38:57):
So you had 27 years with him and Hopefully you live
a long full life.
That's a really long time tolive without, him, right?
So adjusting to not having himthere for all of the big things,
like you said, and also the bighappy things, but also the very
(39:19):
difficult events that willhappen in your life.
Taylor Hershman (39:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
It's hard not to think too farahead.
it's hard not to think of wholelifetime ahead.
Dr. Dean (39:31):
Mm
Taylor Hershman (39:32):
yeah,
Dr. Dean (39:33):
And that's fair.
I think, you said you'relearning to live life and you
are living life and it's helpfulto think about, grief's always
in the background, right?
and how do you do that?
Taylor Hershman (39:44):
yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:45):
live life with this cloud behind you?
Feels different, but you'redoing it as best as you can.
Taylor Hershman (39:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Dean (39:54):
Are there other things that you wanted to share or any
thoughts that you had before Iask my last question?
Taylor Hershman (40:01):
I think just, something about him, something
about.
Ben was just the passion that hefelt for life.
he was passionate about so manythings, whether it was sports
or, looking up, he was like, butalways look up like maps and
look at the development ofDenver from 10 years ago
(40:24):
compared to now and send youcharts and graphs, and he was
just very passionate aboutpeople and his family and
learning and He was complex andvery deep, and I think that was
part of the best qualities inhim.
And I think it also led to someof his struggles, because he did
(40:45):
view the world differently.
like I said, he had this kind ofnormal, on paper life, and he
fit in socially, but he had aton of friends, but was very
introverted.
He was just a nuanced guy.
And I think it's something tothink about just as you're
meeting people.
Cause it's put into perspectivefor me.
(41:05):
Like he was having thesestruggles as my brother, who I
had a close relationship that Iwasn't fully aware of.
And so you don't know whatpeople are, going through behind
closed doors.
Dr. Dean (41:16):
Thank you.
That's a great reminder.
So do you have some favoritememories that you want to share
with us?
Taylor Hershman (41:23):
Yeah.
favorite memory that I have.
It's not one specific event.
It's just, like I said, he wasso into music and he had music
playing literally 24 7 and hewould walk around my parents
house with music playing out ofhis phone.
(41:50):
And just be going about his day,making lunch, getting in the
shower.
He'd have music blasting and Ican just hear him coming in the
back door, dropping down hiskeys and his music playing.
And I was like, can you pleaseturn that down?
I'm trying to work or I'm tryingto, whatever.
(42:13):
And he'd always turn my mom.
My mom has like talk radioplaying all day long and he
Alexa off and then turn on hisown music.
And it was something thatprobably annoyed me at the time.
But.
I do miss it.
Dr. Dean (42:25):
hmm.
I think that's so often in griefthat the things that we miss are
the things that either annoyedus or seemed small at the time
that made
Taylor Hershman (42:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (42:36):
who they were.
Taylor Hershman (42:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (42:37):
do you ever just blare the music
Taylor Hershman (42:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes I, I never really, getit quite as loud as he did
because, but yeah.
Dr. Dean (42:49):
Yeah.
Any other memories?
Taylor Hershman (42:52):
Yeah, I think, when he met my daughters, he was
nervous to hold them becausethey were so little and so
fragile and, been through somuch, but I'm so glad that he
did.
It was a really, special, aspecial memory to have.
And then the other memory is, wewould always go on family
vacations for spring break and.
(43:15):
He, you know, being a middleschooler, elementary school kid,
he would sit in the pool all daylong, and just drink, Strawberry
daiquiri, virgin strawberrydaiquiris and smoothies all day
long.
And we would just see his headfloating in the pool for hours
and hours and hours.
And I was always kind of like amom to him.
(43:35):
one year he actually got me amother's day card just to be
kind of a smart ass.
But, and I'd be like chasing himaround with sunscreen, but you
need to put sunscreen on, youneed to wear your sun shirt and
just getting after him.
But that was.
really our relationship dynamicand, he loved to just relax and
hang out and drink smoothies.
Dr. Dean (43:56):
Sounds great.
I hope that you will have somesmoothies this summer for him.
Taylor Hershman (44:01):
definitely.
Dr. Dean (44:02):
thank you so much for sharing about him and your loss.
And I'm glad that you were ableto chat today, that he didn't
mess with our technology again.
Taylor Hershman (44:11):
Yeah, I think he, uh, gave us a break today
and thank you so much for, theopportunity to speak with you,
but also for, the work that youare doing.
I think it's really, very neededand admirable that during your
own grief, found a hole and tryto fill it.
Cause I do think there's, ofneed for sibling specific
support.
(44:31):
So I
Dr. Dean (44:32):
Well, thank you.
You're welcome.
And thank you for, for thatfeedback.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
(44:52):
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
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