February 1, 2024 • 55 mins
An Oncology Nurse's Journey of Grief and Loss: Navigating Sibling Loss , Knowledge, and Devastation
In this episode, of The Broken Pack: Stories of Adult Sibling Loss, surviving sibling Cally Marzolf-Adams, an oncology nurse shares her difficult sibling loss story of losing her sister, Sarah, to metastatic pancreatic cancer.
Through her conversation with Dr. Dean, Cally shares her profound story of love, loss, and heartbreas, highlighting the challenges and coping mechanisms involved. Her knowledge as an oncology nurse both prepared her and haunted her as she watched her sister decline, eventually dying from the illness.
Together with our host and fellow sibling loss survivor, Dr. Angela Dean, they discuss out-of-order loss, Cally's relationship with Sarah who she described as a kind, calming, soul, memories, seeking help in grief, and so much more.
Also mentioned in this episode was Young Adult Survivors United, an organization whose mission is to help young adult cancer survivors and caregivers/co-survivors cope and thrive by providing emotional, social, and financial support. For more information on this organization please see https://yasurvivors.org/about/.
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
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Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Cally, an Oncology nurse, spokewith me about losing her sister
to metastatic pancreatic cancer.
We talk about how difficult itwas for her to be a nurse, to
know what was coming down theroad, watching her sister die,
how she's grieving, where she istoday, some of her favorite
(00:56):
memories, of course, and advicethat she has for other grieving
siblings.
Take a listen.
Welcome to the show.
Cally, I was wondering what youwanted to say about yourself
today.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (01:15):
My name is Cally.
I am, mom of two small girls.
My oldest daughter is Elle.
She's eight and my youngestdaughter Regan just turned five
a couple days ago and I'mmarried, to my husband Will.
We've been married for 10 yearsand, I've been an oncology nurse
(01:37):
for, 12 years.
I have been in the oncologyworld for 15.
I started out as a patient careassistant and then I went to
nursing school.
I've been in healthcare for along time.
and I'm just thankful for thisplatform and to have found The
Broken Pack™.
Because it's helped me a lot.
(01:59):
So I want to thank you for theopportunity to come on.
Dr. Dean (02:02):
you're welcome.
Thank you for that.
And, my background is aPsychologist in Oncology, so
Cally Marzolf-Adams (02:09):
Oh, wow.
Dr. Dean (02:10):
maybe we can explore what that's been like given also
the circumstances of losing yoursister.
Before we talk about losingSarah, what do you want us to
know about her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (02:21):
I think I want people to know that, what I
would want her to know is thatshe was the strongest person
I've ever come in contact withor taken care of.
She always had this very calmingspirit about her and she, wanted
(02:45):
to help other people and alwayswas concerned about how other
people would feel and, she wasfun and light hearted most of
the time and just overall areally good human being.
Dr. Dean (03:01):
for sharing that.
Was she older, younger?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (03:05):
She was actually 10 years older than me.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (03:09):
Yeah.
What was your relationship likewith her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (03:13):
So it was definitely a different dynamic
than a typical my friends,brothers, and sisters because
they were closer together.
So her parents were married andhad her and then got divorced
and my mom remarried had me.
So we have different biologicalfathers.
but she was like a little mom,she was always making sure I had
(03:36):
what I needed.
And we spent every summertogether at the pool because she
was a lifeguard.
And, it was simpler times whereyou could be there without a
parent per se, and she wasthere.
And, And she drove me placesand, took me out to eat and,
just was more of a role model.
(03:57):
and I really looked up to her,and we didn't share clothes or
like, that.
what you think in your mindsometimes, like, oh, what
sisters do.
she hated shopping.
We didn't do those typicalthings all the time.
She would go shopping, but shedidn't really like it.
(04:17):
So we had a differentrelationship than I think a lot
of my friends, growing up had.
but.
Obviously, I think it was thebest.
Dr. Dean (04:29):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (04:29):
would not have traded the age difference,
for something closer together,but she was definitely more of a
mother hen, in a good way.
Dr. Dean (04:39):
Do you have other siblings?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (04:41):
I don't.
So my, my sister has twostepsisters.
When her dad remarried his wife,she had two other daughters that
were closer to Sarah's age.
So I do, I am in contact withone of them and we enjoy a lot
of the same things and she livedin California, but now she lives
(05:04):
here.
So definitely we have the mutualbond of my sister, but.
We are not, I don't have anybiological siblings that are
living.
Dr. Dean (05:13):
Yeah.
What would you like to shareabout losing her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (05:18):
What mostly comes to mind is just that I
don't want to stay in a place ofwhere I can't talk about her.
Dr. Dean (05:27):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (05:27):
Because I want so badly to have her live
on, but it's I haven't reachedthe point yet where I can look
at pictures or videos.
I just,
Dr. Dean (05:38):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (05:39):
can't really do that.
I want people to know thatthere's no typical way of
dealing with things.
And, I've had loss before.
but it was more in the lifeorder, if you will, of people
dying, like my grandparents andthings like that, that, I was
(06:00):
able to look at pictures andreminisce and have good memories
and things like that.
And I just I'm not able to dothat yet.
and.
it bothers me sometimes that mymom will scroll and scroll
through all of her photos and,just hearing different people
say you could get a digitalframe that brings up it's just
(06:21):
so difficult to explain thatthat's not always therapeutic
right away.
And my therapist I had broughtthat up to her and she had said
she lost her son 10 years agoand she has one of those frames
coincidentally that kind of runsthrough and even sometimes when
(06:42):
his picture comes up she justmelts like just freezes from
that pain.
I don't know if that answeredthe question or not.
Dr. Dean (06:52):
Yeah.
there's no timeline on grief orone way to grieve or find
comfort or have that connection.
for me I had to go through thosepictures right away.
And then there was a period oftime I didn't want to look at
them.
And so it varies for everysingle person.
There's definitely no timelineor expectation and you just
grieve in the way that feelsbest for you.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (07:15):
And I would like to look at pictures, but
it's also weird because she wassick for five years.
So a lot of that time that'swhen we got really close again.
But then it's because she wassick.
And then she looks sick, not allthe time, but then, you want to
remember them at their best orwhatever, but then it's just so
(07:39):
convoluted.
You don't want to focus on whattook their life, but also that's
what took their life.
Dr. Dean (07:47):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (07:49):
And, how do you Go through that without
addressing, this is why shedied.
Dr. Dean (07:56):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (07:56):
I think I struggle with that because of my
job.
Dr. Dean (08:00):
Do you wanna say more about her illness and not
watching the for five years
Cally Marzolf-Adams (08:05):
She was diagnosed with, metastatic
pancreatic cancer at the age of40.
Okay.
She was in the midst ofinfertility treatments and had
done IVF a few times.
Her and her husband had decidedto adopt and she was really
excited.
They painted the room and Iremember laying on the floor at
(08:27):
my house, and it was like 10o'clock and my brother in law
called me.
And he was like, can you come tothe ER?
They found something on herultrasound.
And I'm like, wait, she's in theER.
I didn't even know whathappened, but she was having
abdominal pain.
And even me as a nurse, I waslike, Oh my God, she's pregnant.
what if they found, what if thisis a miracle?
(08:48):
And so I went in having thiswhole other set of thoughts, and
they found like all these livermats.
And the doctor kept, the ERkept, doctor kept saying that,
and I'm like, mets from what?
there's nothing, so metastaticdisease means, I'm sure you
know, but it's, the cancer hasspread from one primary site to
(09:08):
another.
Dr. Dean (09:09):
no.
Thank you for sharing that.
For
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:11):
yeah, I gotta, remember that.
But I'm like, she's 40 yearsold, she does not have liver
mets, and Like I said, from whatthere's nothing on her CT scan.
She had a gallstone.
So when they were doing like theultrasound and moving it around,
it must've dislodged and thenher pain went away.
Dr. Dean (09:30):
Mm mm-Hmm?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:31):
But they still saw these spots on her
liver.
And I'm just like, it's, I wasnot even as an oncology nurse,
like a cancer nurse.
I did not believe that it wasmetastatic disease.
Dr. Dean (09:47):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:47):
So it was all a whirlwind from there.
And, I got a differentperspective about how people can
be in denial.
Dr. Dean (09:57):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:58):
And I was not believing it well into her
starting treatment, even that,
Dr. Dean (10:04):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (10:05):
this was actually cancer.
So she had, gone on treatment.
And was getting chemo.
She quit her job, like prettyharsh chemo.
and then a clinical trial becameavailable, which she did.
And she did great for 10 months.
She was the first patient on aclinical trial.
and then she had progression,which means The measurable
(10:29):
disease in her pancreas wasbigger.
So she had to come off the trialand resume like standard of
care, which is really limitedfor pancreatic cancer.
Unfortunately there's not awhole lot to offer in that
disease, site right now.
And then it was found threeyears in, she developed these
huge, ovarian tumors and, theywere able to take them out.
(10:54):
And then that pathology actuallyended up being different than
her original diagnosis.
Dr. Dean (11:00):
mm-Hmm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (11:01):
but then they looked at the original
tissue and said actually she wasmisdiagnosed.
So she has had treatment forthree years for adenocarcinoma
and now they're finding out thatshe actually has neuroendocrine
carcinoma, which does make senseas to a little bit why she was
(11:23):
doing so well, because thesurvival rate for pancreatic
cancer is not good at all.
Dr. Dean (11:29):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (11:31):
So she switched to a different,
treatment and at that timethough, it was in her bones and
she, was already having reallybad side effects from all the
chemo and, you would neverreally know it, but she shared,
stuff privately, with me and,stuff that she, was starting to
(11:52):
feel, obviously, worn out.
Dr. Dean (11:54):
Was she getting treated where you work?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (11:57):
So she had a consultation where I, so I was
on the inpatient oncology unitat the time, and so I was able
to help facilitate some thingsto get her, a biopsy quicker and
stuff like that.
Thankfully, because the way herprimary care physician had it
set up was that she would seeinterventional radiology in a
(12:17):
week.
And I'm like, no, this is notacceptable.
She is 40 years old and we don'teven have, at that time multiple
doctors looked at her CT scanand didn't see a primary.
So I of course asked herpermission, but I'm like,
something has to be done.
So she.
ended up having, after herbiopsy results and all that, a
(12:40):
consult where I work now, whichis the outpatient oncology,
facility.
But those doctors here, rotateinpatient, so I knew, the whole
group.
And then she did start to seepalliative care here, the summer
that she died.
Dr. Dean (12:58):
How long ago was that?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (13:00):
It was two years in August.
Dr. Dean (13:03):
So 2021.
What was that process like,watching the slow progression
for you?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (13:13):
It was pretty terrible.
I felt like I knew too much,
Dr. Dean (13:18):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (13:20):
I noticed she was getting cachectic and
her teeth were like falling outand she like couldn't sit on
hard surfaces because of thedisease in her sacrum.
And honestly, I just wanted itto happen.
(13:40):
I'm gonna be very honest.
I couldn't stand the thought ofwatching her suffer the way that
I've seen people suffer.
And, you don't of course knowhow it's gonna end up happening.
So I just was like, I don't wanther to get a bowel obstruction
(14:03):
where, you're throwing up allthe time.
And I knew all these differentscenarios.
And I just was like, pray andpray.
I honestly hoped that she wouldlike, this sounds terrible, but
(14:25):
I'm just here to be honest.
I was hoping she would like, diein a car accident or something
else.
Dr. Dean (14:32):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (14:34):
Because I just couldn't stand the thought
of watching this happen, youknow?
Um,
Dr. Dean (14:48):
Did you ever share that with her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (14:51):
Which part?
Dr. Dean (14:53):
That you hoped that she wouldn't suffer?
Maybe not how, but yeah.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (14:58):
Yeah, and she didn't want to either.
And, she did what she needed todo, but when there was nothing
else to do, she signed right onwith hospice.
She was very, matter of factabout more stuff than everyone
else was But I truly believelike from what I've seen in
(15:20):
oncology that.
people know their time.
Somehow they, even if you'relike all the labs and everything
looks fine and there would be noindication why this person would
be saying like there,something's not right.
(15:40):
I truly believe that peopleknow, and I think she knew
before her last set of scans
Dr. Dean (15:47):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (15:48):
that.
They weren't gonna be good, andI think everybody else did too,
but I knew in a more detailedsense from her physical, signs.
We had gone to the beach inApril.
We had planned a trip inSeptember, which we had been
doing for a while.
(16:09):
And like last minute, I wasrecovering from hip surgery.
So I hadn't started my new jobyet.
And she was like, before you goback to work, do you want to go
to the beach?
And I'm like, Not really.
Like I just had hip surgery acouple months ago.
I'm just like, all these thingswere coming up.
I have two little kids.
(16:30):
Will, my husband couldn't getoff work.
And of course, I went and I'm soglad I did because I know that
she knew she wasn't going tomake it
Dr. Dean (16:39):
Mm hmm.
I'm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (16:40):
till September.
And that was her last, like itall makes sense now.
Dr. Dean (16:49):
Mm hmm.
What do
Cally Marzolf-Adams (16:52):
And I wasn't, I feel like I wasn't
very nice to her.
Dr. Dean (16:58):
you mean?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (16:59):
That trip, I was in pain, and I knew she
was dying, I felt upset, andjust, it's that anticipatory
grief,
Dr. Dean (17:14):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (17:14):
I mean, I enjoyed myself, and we had, a
good time.
It's not that.
It's just, there was thatelephant in the room that.
Dr. Dean (17:23):
I wonder if what you're hinting at was that you
were closing yourself off alittle bit so it was easier to
say goodbye.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (17:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (17:33):
Yeah.
but I wonder if you could findcompassion for yourself and just
to give yourself some compassionfor that time.
Yeah, for sure.
It sounds like it was difficultfor you to manage your knowledge
from your professional work andbalance that with your personal
(17:58):
and your love for her.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:00):
Yeah, because she was doing the exact
opposite in a way of what I didknow.
Dr. Dean (18:07):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:07):
She wasn't the typical patient either.
So Yeah.
While I had a lot of knowledge,I also was completely out of my,
this is my sister, like not aneighbor or I was not thinking
clearly,
Dr. Dean (18:26):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:28):
as far as what this really meant and
everyone was asking mequestions, and it was just like
a lot of pressure But then ifyou say pancreatic cancer to
anybody they're like oh, no.
It's not like something thatPeople are like, Oh, you can
beat this.
(18:48):
There's none of that,
Dr. Dean (18:50):
Right.
Which
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:50):
is actually for Sarah better because she was
always very blunt.
And we had talked about the factthat it's metastatic, meaning
she'll never be cured and shewas almost okay with that
because When you can be cured,then you wonder if it's coming
(19:11):
back.
And, she had thought a lot aboutwhat this meant and how to carry
on, the remainder of her life,however long it was going to be.
But yeah, as far as me knowingstuff, it, her husband would
send me her labs.
Like it was very, there was noboundaries.
Dr. Dean (19:34):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (19:35):
And that was by choice.
She wanted me, I wanted her.
Dr. Dean (19:39):
Okay.
So
Cally Marzolf-Adams (19:40):
it was fine.
But then my mom stepped in andwas the caregiver for my
daughter.
Cause she was two and a half orone and a half.
When Sarah was diagnosed.
And then my second daughter wastwo and a half when she died.
My mom wanted me to be with herand she was fine being with
(20:04):
Elle, but I spent a lot of timelike going to appointments and
treatments and cause at thatpoint also, her husband was very
paralyzed, with the wholesituation and, I just took over,
at her request.
Dr. Dean (20:23):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (20:24):
And then once things, got into a routine,
I didn't go to every singlething and, But, there was a time
where I knew, something wasgonna happen.
you can only be on sometreatments and stuff like that
for so long without, having sideeffects.
Her, gallbladder shut downbasically.
And where in a normal person,they would just, do a
(20:46):
cholecystectomy, which is justtaking the gallbladder out.
They couldn't because of whereher cancer was.
So they had to put in a drain.
For a while to get theinflammation down.
And then she did end up havingsurgery, but I helped her take
care of the drain and give hershowers.
And, she was kind of a moreprivate person.
(21:07):
That was not something sheloved.
But I was pretty honored for herto ask me.
Dr. Dean (21:15):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (21:17):
She, took care of me so much.
I felt like the roles werereversing a little bit and for
once I could do something forher
Dr. Dean (21:27):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (21:28):
as hard as it was.
I thought someday I'll help herwith her newborn because I'm a
mom first.
This was not my plan.
And I think that is a wholeseparate part of grieving.
Dr. Dean (21:43):
Yeah,
Cally Marzolf-Adams (21:44):
Like what things were supposed to be
Dr. Dean (21:48):
right.
And I think you mentionedearlier, too, the whole out of
order grief, but also out oforder life, if you will, that
you had expected to be there andbe able to be an aunt and help
her and vice versa.
Do you want to say more aboutthat?
How that's changed for you?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (22:08):
It's very isolating in the sense that
things that come up, like myaging parents and stuff like
that.
It's like, you're doing this,you're going to have to do this
on your own now.
Dr. Dean (22:18):
Mm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (22:20):
And unfortunately, 11 days after
Sarah died, my mother in lawdied.
Dr. Dean (22:26):
Oh, and so
Cally Marzolf-Adams (22:31):
not having this support of your spouse,
because I mean, I wasn'tsupporting him the way that I
wanted to either.
but seeing what he had to dobecause it was his mother and
all that goes into being theexecutor of the estate and
(22:52):
things like that it was eyeopening like oh my gosh that's
gonna be all on me.
And just things that you assumethat they're going to be there
for, that you talk about whenyou're younger or let's do this
together.
Let's do, it's just all gone.
Dr. Dean (23:17):
I can relate to that.
Very much having lost my onlysibling as well, out of order,
right?
Aging parents is a difficultthing.
Were you able to haveconversations with her about
that before she died?
About you having to take care ofyour parents and all of that?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (23:38):
She was always very blunt.
She was just like, sorry.
I know I'm going to die.
unless an event happens orsomething like I'm going to die
before mom and dad and basicallylike I don't want to either,
She's didn't want to leave mealone.
but obviously she didn't have achoice.
(23:59):
So there weren't as many reallyin depth conversations because
it was just like, that's the wayit is.
And if for some reason one ofthem dies before me, which I
doubt, of course, we'll figureit out.
There wasn't a whole lot of,advice,
Dr. Dean (24:17):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:18):
which I wouldn't expect, but she pretty
much knew that she was gonna diebefore them, so there was not a
whole lot she could help mewith.
Dr. Dean (24:29):
Yeah.
I'm curious, were you workingthis whole time that she was
ill?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:38):
Yeah, I was working the whole time.
Dr. Dean (24:40):
How has losing her to cancer changed you and your work
in that way?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:47):
Well, so when I was working through when
she was getting treatment andstuff, she would go to UPenn in
Philly.
Dr. Dean (24:55):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:56):
So she wasn't getting treated around
here,
Dr. Dean (24:58):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:59):
or like where I work specifically.
But honestly, it was such a gooddistraction and it was a way, So
she didn't need as much help asa lot of people, probably mostly
because of her age and thingslike that, but she had a really
good support system.
And so I would just think when Iwent into work, what can I do
(25:22):
best for these people that I'mtaking care of to honor her and,
it took on a whole new meaningof treat others how you would
want to be treated or you wouldwant a family member treated
because I always thought I knewhow it felt or I thought I could
(25:43):
empathize, as much as I could,but you really don't know until
you're on that other side and Soit gave me a different
perspective about people beingin denial or people not
understanding.
We would say like, how can younot see this person is like
(26:04):
dying?
It gave me a whole newperspective on you're not
thinking the way that youthought before.
It's like when someone says, oh,I don't know how someone could
murder this person.
Like you, you're not thinkingthe way this person's thinking.
You can't compare because youdon't think like this person
(26:25):
thinks.
So of course you wouldn't dothat.
And I'm not saying it's okay,obviously, but you can't think
about it because you just trulydon't know.
There were some times where Iwould break down and just not be
able to care for certain people,or I thought I couldn't, I
(26:48):
should say.
But as soon as I had gotten thispatient shortly after she was
diagnosed that He was in his midforties and had pancreatic
cancer and he was coming in withjaundice, which is yellowing of
the skin because a bile duct isclogged, usually by a tumor or
something.
And I'm like, I can't have him,I can't take care of him.
(27:09):
But as soon as he came up intothe room that was my room.
I was like, of course I can, ofcourse I can.
And it was the best.
He was the best person, if Ihadn't met him, sorry, I
would've been so sad.
it's just helps me think, and Inever really, I didn't share my
(27:36):
story about my sister a wholelot, to patients, because I'm
not there to do that.
Unless it felt right.
But, everyone that I talked toand stuff was surprised that I
could stay doing what I'm doing.
but that was easy compared toafter she died.
Dr. Dean (27:57):
Mm hmm.
What was that like for you goingback to work after?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:02):
It was terrible because for one, my mom
takes care of my girls.
I felt bad that she had to comeback to work.
Dr. Dean (28:13):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:14):
And then, my husband had been off so much
with caring for his mom.
So he had to go back to work,and I got three days of
bereavement time,
Dr. Dean (28:28):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:28):
which I think is just tragic.
Dr. Dean (28:33):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:36):
I didn't really have a supportive, my
team itself was supportive, butI felt like there weren't a lot
of options other than comingback because I was a newer
employee, not of the healthsystem, but of this department.
And, every day was extremelyhard.
(29:06):
I don't remember a lot of, thevery early days of, actually
getting here and, functioningand, getting through that time.
But there would be, like,certain sounds or certain things
that I would see that would justreally trigger me and pretty
much devastate me the rest ofthe day.
(29:27):
Or I would go to the bathroom orgo to my car, or, just, have
moments alone.
So she died in August and thenthat April I was having really
bad intrusive thoughts and justdidn't want to be here anymore.
Dr. Dean (29:49):
hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (29:50):
And so I took a two week FMLA
Dr. Dean (29:54):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (29:55):
and spent time with my husband and my
girls and we took them to thebeach for a couple days and I
set up some more counseling andnobody tells you to do that.
Like you have to figure it out.
Dr. Dean (30:12):
I'm glad that you got that help.
Was it helpful to work throughthose intrusive thoughts and
ideation that you had?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (30:22):
Yeah, I didn't realize that I was having
them.
It was very weird until I waslike, oh yeah, it's not normal.
Like you shouldn't feel like a
Dr. Dean (30:30):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (30:31):
What if this happened and it was
happening like every day likewhen I would go to work across
the bridge like what?
if I just went off the bridgeand just thinking that I truly
cannot live without her and thenjust going in these cycles of
like Why am I?
(30:54):
Here with these two beautifulchildren and she's not and
what's the point?
things are never the same and itdidn't help my husband obviously
was he lost his only parent
Dr. Dean (31:06):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (31:06):
like I just felt like not good anywhere, and
I didn't realize at the timethat it was that serious,
Dr. Dean (31:18):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (31:19):
until I talked it out with some of my
coworkers and realized, it's notreally okay I shouldn't have to
live like this
Dr. Dean (31:28):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adam (31:29):
essentially.
And what does it mean not tolive like this, but To live at
all.
And, where to, where do you gofrom there?
after you talk about it, thenwhat, it's just like this
awkward.
And then you're like, I feltlike that one time, but did I
(31:50):
really, then you start to thinkdid I really feel like that?
Everybody probably thinks thatit's just like this constant,
Dr. Dean (32:01):
Trying to reassure yourself.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:03):
Yeah, and that's why, I didn't go to the
E.
R.
Dr. Dean (32:05):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:08):
it didn't seem that serious at the time.
that makes
Dr. Dean (32:11):
What has helped you even then or since then cope?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:17):
I'm still finding things because I feel
like I'm so focused on takingcare of my kids.
And.
I just assumed that nothing wasgoing to help.
Dr. Dean (32:28):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:29):
Time, outside, quiet time by myself.
Sometimes I really don't want tobe alone.
A lot of times, in thebeginning, I was petrified to be
alone because I just didn't wantany silence.
Silence.
My therapist really helped me.
(32:50):
and I'm still honestly workingon what does it look like to
work on enjoying things again,or, At first I thought, oh, I'm
going to raise money forpancreatic cancer awareness.
I wanted to do these things, butthen I was just like, I can't.
Dr. Dean (33:09):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (33:09):
And so those would be my go to things.
if this was a friend or, someoneelse's parent that it's just so
different and paralyzing.
that I think.
Probably like the first year anda half at least, I was just
trying to take it day by day andjust live and keep everyone on
(33:35):
track and healthy and I hadshoulder surgery basically a
year after she passed away.
And the recovery from that hasbeen the worst orthopedic
recovery I've ever had.
I've had many surgeries and Ithink it's because I'm the
grief.
Dr. Dean (33:54):
Yeah, of course.
I think that's something wedon't talk about enough is how
there's physical reactions togrief.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (34:02):
and I want to highlight, you said, I'm still
in this, like there was somejudgment on yourself for still
working through this.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:12):
Like still figuring out
Dr. Dean (34:13):
Yeah, but let's normalize that because you
expected her to be here another,I don't know, 40, 50 years,
right?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:24):
Yeah
Dr. Dean (34:25):
You're two years in and there's no timeline on
grief, So this is really earlyin the grief process.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:32):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (34:33):
It's going to take time to figure out how to live
with joy and grief at the sametime yes, that's
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:37):
exactly right I think too because there
was always this"but she" or"atleast" That people, I truly
understand that people meanwell.
(34:57):
And I hope that if I've everdone that to anybody, that they
know it was just my ignoranceand not truly what I meant or
how it to come out because thosewords are just so hurtful.
Dr. Dean (35:22):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (35:23):
And because she lived so long, there was and
is so much,"Oh, my gosh, I can'tbelieve that.
At least she got to see XYZ.
At least you got that time withher." I truly don't believe
people mean anything by it.
(35:44):
I just think that they have notexperienced a situation where
that is just not acceptable,it's not good enough.
So some of these things haveaffected, the grieving process,
because it makes you feel like,oh, yeah, you're right, at least
she, lived five years.
Like, how dare I
Dr. Dean (36:04):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (36:04):
be upset that she's not here when she got
five years?
I know that's not rational tothink like that, but I know it's
a way of people, making mostlythemselves feel better, or feel
like they're contributing to,her legacy as in a good thing,
but it's just, I think all thoselittle things chip away at any
(36:26):
value that a sibling puts ontheir right to grieve.
Dr. Dean (36:32):
Yes.
It's another way that grief isinvalidated, whether, we're here
talking about sibling grief, butI think that is true for so many
losses.
When people start with"at least,"or"but," whatever, it follows
the but, it just invalidatesyour pain.
And you're already feeling likeyou don't have the right to
(36:52):
grieve as a sibling.
So then you add on to thisinvalidation, and I think you're
right.
I don't think people usuallymean harm by saying those
things, but I think what happensis they say it like almost as if
you didn't think of that.
So that's going to make you feelbetter.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:11):
Yeah, I'm uh, And of course I know that,
Dr. Dean (37:15):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:16):
but sometimes I'm like, that's not
good enough.
And it's okay to say I wantedmore.
I wanted her to be a mom.
I wanted her to continue her lawcareer.
I wanted so many things
Dr. Dean (37:31):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:32):
and it's almost like, well, don't be
greedy.
She got five years.
So I think that's definitelybeen something that you have to
build resilience for.
Dr. Dean (37:44):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:44):
Through her five years of being sick and
stuff.
I heard that all the time.
At least she's not having sideeffects.
At least you found it early, allthese things.
And you're like, Oh,
Dr. Dean (37:56):
Right.
okay.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:58):
At that time, it's like easier to handle
those comments.
But then when they die, it's Oh,just stop.
Dr. Dean (38:04):
Yeah, there's a cancer organization here, it's Young
Adult Survivors United, and thefounder of that often reminds
people, there is no good cancer,there is no good situation here,
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:18):
a great way to put it.
Dr. Dean (38:21):
How do you respond to those kind of statements now?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:24):
I have started to say, and I'm still
sad.
Dr. Dean (38:30):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:30):
Yes, She is amazing.
And yes, she was the 3 percentof people who survived after
five years.
She made it one month past fiveyears.
And I know it's because she's sostubborn that she was really
just holding out.
But I want people to know thatwhen they go through this and
(38:53):
someone says that to them, thatthey can speak up and say,"And
it still sucks.
Dr. Dean (38:59):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:59):
And it still is painful." Because I
would hate that when someonesays that to them, that they
feel so alone and isolated andthat they should be grateful and
all these different things.
So I just.
I've started to say,"And while Iagree with you, it still sucks.
(39:26):
And it's still not fair.".
Dr. Dean (39:29):
I love that you're doing that, because what you're
doing is validating yourself infront of them to also make a
point that your grief is valid.
So thank you for sharing that
Cally Marzolf-Adams (39:39):
approach.
And it's it's if I don't believethat it's valid, who is going
to?
So most of this has been provingto myself that.
I deserve to not be compared toa spouse, a parent,
Dr. Dean (39:54):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (39:55):
even another sibling.
Everybody's different.
And, oh, at least she didn'thave kids.
That's the worst one.
I just want to just punch peoplein the face, to be honest.
When they say that at least shedidn't have kids.
I'm like, oh my God.
That's so rude.
Do you know how hard she workedand wanted to have kids?
Oh, that one is still verytriggering to me.
Dr. Dean (40:16):
I would imagine, especially given the
circumstances of how the cancerwas found, that that is very
painful.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (40:23):
Yeah.
yeah, I think.
you want to shut everything out,you want to shut people out, but
you also need them.
Then people come and then theyleave.
Everyone's there at first andthen it's like nobody's there.
So I think I was not prepared.
I don't think anyone can prepareyou for that.
But that can also be veryhurtful
Dr. Dean (40:46):
In an earlier episode this season, when I talked to
Jillian, she had this greatmetaphor about the well and how
in those early days of grief,you're in a well and people know
that you're in there and theycan toss in food and water and
drink
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:02):
Yes, I heard
Dr. Dean (41:03):
whatever.
Yeah.
And then
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:05):
to hers.
Dr. Dean (41:06):
they're like, abandon you.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:08):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (41:10):
We forgot we need to get you out of the well.
And I think that's what you'retalking about.
I'm curious too, because yousaid you know that you deserve
to not be compared to a spouse,or a child, or a other sibling.
Obviously not the children, buthow has that panned out for you?
The comparisons?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:28):
Not the best because I still get really
sucked into.
especially cause I have twodaughters.
Like when she got sick, where doI fit
Dr. Dean (41:38):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:38):
in this?
I'm not her spouse, so I don'thave immediate decision making
unless she wouldn't say that.
I'm not her parent.
I'm not even her older sibling.
But I'm an oncology nurse, so Ifit right in, I always wonder
what if I wasn't.
What if I wasn't in medicine atall?
Would I be valued at all?
(42:00):
And I try not to go down thatroad because I don't want to be
compared, but I do compare.
So I
Dr. Dean (42:08):
oh, you're doing the comparison yourself.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:10):
don't want to, but I do.
So I think too, because I havetwo daughters that I think how
could my mom still befunctioning?
How could she still be living atall, when your daughter dies,
but then I'm also like, my onlysister died
Dr. Dean (42:29):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:29):
I'm like you at least have me but like
Dr. Dean (42:32):
There's that, at least.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:34):
Yep like at least you have me but also her
daughter died,
Dr. Dean (42:40):
hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:41):
So it's not set in stone for me as much as I
want to say I don't compare.
Dr. Dean (42:49):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:49):
I do in my mind.
And that's the honest truth.
Dr. Dean (42:52):
I mean it's hard not to do that.
We look at our parents losingchildren and those of us that
are parents look at our childrenand put ourselves in that place
and validating for ourselvesthat we did lose our siblings is
also an approach to kind ofcounterbalance that.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (43:07):
Yeah.
It's all hard.
It's not harder.
It's just different, right?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:12):
Right, I've had some hard conversations with
my mom because.
It's hard when I share somethingthat I'm feeling, I don't feel
like it's right for me to sharesometimes how I feel
Dr. Dean (43:23):
Mm.
Mm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:26):
because she's her mom and while it might
be met with, I understand, I'mhere for you, it might also be
met with, Oh, I know.
You're talking to her mom, Ilost my daughter.
And so sometimes I think who amI to be sad about this in front
(43:49):
of her?
Dr. Dean (43:50):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:51):
Or, say I really miss this and her say,
yeah, of course, so do I.
And I know It's not putting medown or anything like that.
It's just her experience.
Just like I'm trying to sharemine.
Dr. Dean (44:04):
Right.
Where are you in grief today?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (44:06):
I really have some weeks I am not good at
all.
Sometimes I'm think I'm okay.
But then I know I'm not gonna beokay soon.
So that's a false sense of oh,things are gonna be fine.
mm hmm.
And I remember feeling thatreally early on, the cycle
starting.
There was a thing at mydaughter's school the October
that my sister died in August.
(44:28):
And I remember having it was acouple hours where I was like,
oh my gosh, things are gonna beokay.
I really feel like things aregoing to be okay, and then just
a ton of bricks, it wasn'tagain.
Dr. Dean (44:40):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (44:40):
I think I'm having fewer periods of time
where I think it's not going to,or I know it's not going to be
how I want it to be, and, Istill can't fathom, that I will
never see her.
It's, unreal to me that is thereality.
Dr. Dean (44:58):
Yeah.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (44:58):
I look forward to the day where, I can
look at pictures again.
Or, watch videos or something.
I would imagine that I would beable to do that at some point.
I don't know when, but every dayis an effort to make the
decision to bring her with me inwhat I'm doing.
And it's hard, but what's harderis thinking that she's not with
(45:21):
me.
Dr. Dean (45:22):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (45:24):
So Either way, it's hard and I went to see
a medium.
I've gone to her before, but Iwent last March around my
birthday and she said, what'smost painful is thinking that
they are somewhere way far away.
Dr. Dean (45:40):
mm hmm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (45:41):
And me in my mind, I'm like, she is.
But she's like, if.
You ask her to come with youplaces, ask her to go to work,
ask her to go to the park whenyou take your kids, pretend like
she is with you.
And since I started doing that,I have felt a little bit more as
she's not so far away, thensometimes that reality just hits
(46:04):
me, But I think, whatever youcan find to make you feel closer
to them.
Some of the things that, youthink that you would have great
memories and you do, I can't dothem.
Dr. Dean (46:17):
Mm hmm.
it's painful because it comeswith the fact that the loss is
there, too, or that you
Cally Marzolf-Adams (46:22):
but I think like this whole time when I
thought, when I knew she wasgonna die or whatever, I
thought, Oh, I'll live.
on in her memory.
And, I had these plans
Dr. Dean (46:35):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (46:38):
and not being able to follow through
with them I feel like I'm doinga disservice to her and her
memory.
For some reason,
Dr. Dean (46:45):
I assume that you're working with your therapist on
these type of topics.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (46:49):
Yeah, I haven't talked to her recently.
but I do talk to the chaplain atwork.
and I know that therapy is soimportant and I know that, it is
not ending for me.
I just,
Dr. Dean (47:03):
I just had to prioritize what you needed.
Yeah.
I'm glad.
are there other ways that you'vefound support?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (47:08):
through social media, Just even being
invited to talk about it is sovalidating and so important and
so supportive.
If somebody would just ask me,tell me about your sister, that
is goes so far.
And of people, like Sarah wasvery active on Facebook.
(47:30):
She would post every time shehad chemo and her why I chemo,
So I think a lot of people feellike they know her story, so not
a whole lot of people ask meabout her story, which is fine,
but I think just saying, tell memore, tell me more about her
and, I think, when you putquestions, Yes or no, or tell me
(47:53):
this or just that is sosupportive because it's it's
going to a safe place thatsomebody knows what it's like.
And, so I think the social mediaas not helpful as it is
sometimes has been superhelpful, in this case and, I
(48:16):
think support.
sometimes looks like just havingsomeone say her name.
Just tell me, that you thoughtof a story that reminded me of
her.
The support is so nontraditional.
I wouldn't think that would feellike support, but it really
does.
Dr. Dean (48:33):
Yeah.
thank you for that feedback, andthose ideas.
Those are great.
Is there anything else that youwanted to share, either about
her or sibling loss before wetalk about the favorite memories
that you have?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (48:44):
Mostly what I would want to share is that
you're not alone.
and your situation might beunique.
And of course, like everyrelationship is unique, but
there's probably someone thatfeels like you do.
Dr. Dean (48:58):
mm-Hmm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (48:58):
I always thought that was cheesy when
people would say to me, I justfelt like there's nobody that
feels like this.
There's nobody that.
Is an oncology nurse that theirsister got cancer.
Like it just doesn't happen, butI'm sure it does.
And it's just all the thingslike what you're feeling is
okay.
it really is.
(49:20):
And I just think when you're inthat moment, if somebody's not
sitting with you and telling youthat you start thinking all
kinds of crazy things, notcrazy, but just you're not the
same person that you were.
Dr. Dean (49:34):
right
Cally Marzolf-Adams (49:34):
I remember the specific day and hour that I
was not the same.
Dr. Dean (49:40):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (49:40):
And then when she died, there was a line
in the sand and you're notexpected to be the same.
even if you feel like people areexpecting that., I just would
want someone I love to knowthat, of course you're not the
same.
How could you be,
Dr. Dean (49:59):
I was thinking of those exact words as you said
that.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (50:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (50:02):
Thank you for that.
Would you like to share some ofyour favorite memories Sarah and
you?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (50:09):
Yeah, I said earlier, she was the swim
coach of the swim, summer swimteam.
I was on and, we would spend allday.
She would get me up, we wouldwake up together, eat breakfast,
go to the pool, have swimpractice.
She would be the coach and thenshe would lifeguard all day.
(50:31):
And I would stay and hang outand, My mom was a teacher, so
she was off in the summers, but,Sarah basically just took me
under her wing and we'd hangout.
It wasn't all great all thetime.
I definitely annoyed her.
And sometimes I just rememberthinking she's just so weird.
she's so smart that she's justso weird.
(50:52):
And.
I remember this funny storybecause I can't think of
peppermint patties the same wayas she took me to her dad's
house or they were on vacation.
So we let the dog out before shewent back to work.
And she was like, we were goingthrough the cabinets trying to
find snacks and she's Do youwant a peppermint patty and I
(51:14):
was like, Oh yeah, sure.
And she's you actually need to,cause your breath smells.
And I was probably I don't know,11 at the time and I'm like, Oh
my gosh, like very sensitiveabout it.
But she was so matter of fact,take two cause you need it.
Like just certain things likethat.
(51:34):
She was just so blunt and to thepoint.
And, She, when my parents wouldgo out to dinner for their
anniversary, like that was a bigdeal.
We would always have go out todinner and watch a movie
together.
And that was something I alwaysreally looked forward to.
and then, she was there when myfirst daughter was born.
(51:55):
I was induced and it was a threeday ordeal.
And she was there the wholetime.
And of course, like at the timeI was annoyed because I'm like,
ah, everybody's standing aroundhere waiting for this baby to
Dr. Dean (52:08):
mm, mm,
Cally Marzolf-Adams (52:08):
I have no clue what's happening.
And, but then I'm like, oh mygosh, she was just so excited.
And I remember her just beingtruly happy for me and excited.
To meet both of the girls,especially Elle cause that's
when she was waiting in thehospital.
There's so many things that Ihope I never forget.
Dr. Dean (52:33):
Have you considered writing any of it down?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (52:36):
I have, I've written like a good bit
down, It's in a milliondifferent places, but I've had
some of my computer and some, Irely on other people to tell me.
especially like of the younger,uh, when I was younger, but I
remember when she went tocollege, I was devastated.
I thought my life was over.
(52:59):
I remember just crying andcrying.
My aunt.
kept me overnight and my parentstook her to, she went to Vassar,
she went to Pitt too, but Vassarwas her first undergrad and I
just was like my life is over,she's leaving, I have nobody.
She taught me so much aboutdifferent things.
(53:20):
Like we would go explore,wherever she went to school.
Cause she went to Vassar,Amherst, Villanova, Pittsburgh.
So I got a lot of interactionwith different groups of people
at an early age.
thanks to her and, she alwaysliked to spoil me and made it
okay to be annoyed with my momand, stuff like that, that
(53:43):
you're like, if my mom sayssomething funny, there's no one
to look to and, have that mutualagreement that this is silly
and, I still.
think, that she's there and canhear the things.
I just, obviously wish that shewas actually here.
Dr. Dean (54:00):
right.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (54:02):
but yeah, I just have so many really good
memories that, I think the badoutweigh the good sometimes,
because that's what I lethappen.
I think anybody probably does.
but, when I think she would likesomething, I make sure to tell
my girls Oh, Aunt Sarah wouldreally like that.
Dr. Dean (54:20):
hmm.
Thank you for all of that.
I do think sometimes the waythat someone dies, or the, in
your case, the last few years ofher life, can color how we
remember things.
Well, I really enjoyed talkingto you and, thank you for all
the feedback.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (54:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Dean (54:37):
You're welcome.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and grieving tips forsubscribers.
(54:59):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, subscribe,and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Cally, an Oncology nurse, spokewith me about losing her sister
to metastatic pancreatic cancer.
We talk about how difficult itwas for her to be a nurse, to
know what was coming down theroad, watching her sister die,
how she's grieving, where she istoday, some of her favorite
(00:56):
memories, of course, and advicethat she has for other grieving
siblings.
Take a listen.
Welcome to the show.
Cally, I was wondering what youwanted to say about yourself
today.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (01:15):
My name is Cally.
I am, mom of two small girls.
My oldest daughter is Elle.
She's eight and my youngestdaughter Regan just turned five
a couple days ago and I'mmarried, to my husband Will.
We've been married for 10 yearsand, I've been an oncology nurse
(01:37):
for, 12 years.
I have been in the oncologyworld for 15.
I started out as a patient careassistant and then I went to
nursing school.
I've been in healthcare for along time.
and I'm just thankful for thisplatform and to have found The
Broken Pack™.
Because it's helped me a lot.
(01:59):
So I want to thank you for theopportunity to come on.
Dr. Dean (02:02):
you're welcome.
Thank you for that.
And, my background is aPsychologist in Oncology, so
Cally Marzolf-Adams (02:09):
Oh, wow.
Dr. Dean (02:10):
maybe we can explore what that's been like given also
the circumstances of losing yoursister.
Before we talk about losingSarah, what do you want us to
know about her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (02:21):
I think I want people to know that, what I
would want her to know is thatshe was the strongest person
I've ever come in contact withor taken care of.
She always had this very calmingspirit about her and she, wanted
(02:45):
to help other people and alwayswas concerned about how other
people would feel and, she wasfun and light hearted most of
the time and just overall areally good human being.
Dr. Dean (03:01):
for sharing that.
Was she older, younger?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (03:05):
She was actually 10 years older than me.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (03:09):
Yeah.
What was your relationship likewith her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (03:13):
So it was definitely a different dynamic
than a typical my friends,brothers, and sisters because
they were closer together.
So her parents were married andhad her and then got divorced
and my mom remarried had me.
So we have different biologicalfathers.
but she was like a little mom,she was always making sure I had
(03:36):
what I needed.
And we spent every summertogether at the pool because she
was a lifeguard.
And, it was simpler times whereyou could be there without a
parent per se, and she wasthere.
And, And she drove me placesand, took me out to eat and,
just was more of a role model.
(03:57):
and I really looked up to her,and we didn't share clothes or
like, that.
what you think in your mindsometimes, like, oh, what
sisters do.
she hated shopping.
We didn't do those typicalthings all the time.
She would go shopping, but shedidn't really like it.
(04:17):
So we had a differentrelationship than I think a lot
of my friends, growing up had.
but.
Obviously, I think it was thebest.
Dr. Dean (04:29):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (04:29):
would not have traded the age difference,
for something closer together,but she was definitely more of a
mother hen, in a good way.
Dr. Dean (04:39):
Do you have other siblings?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (04:41):
I don't.
So my, my sister has twostepsisters.
When her dad remarried his wife,she had two other daughters that
were closer to Sarah's age.
So I do, I am in contact withone of them and we enjoy a lot
of the same things and she livedin California, but now she lives
(05:04):
here.
So definitely we have the mutualbond of my sister, but.
We are not, I don't have anybiological siblings that are
living.
Dr. Dean (05:13):
Yeah.
What would you like to shareabout losing her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (05:18):
What mostly comes to mind is just that I
don't want to stay in a place ofwhere I can't talk about her.
Dr. Dean (05:27):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (05:27):
Because I want so badly to have her live
on, but it's I haven't reachedthe point yet where I can look
at pictures or videos.
I just,
Dr. Dean (05:38):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (05:39):
can't really do that.
I want people to know thatthere's no typical way of
dealing with things.
And, I've had loss before.
but it was more in the lifeorder, if you will, of people
dying, like my grandparents andthings like that, that, I was
(06:00):
able to look at pictures andreminisce and have good memories
and things like that.
And I just I'm not able to dothat yet.
and.
it bothers me sometimes that mymom will scroll and scroll
through all of her photos and,just hearing different people
say you could get a digitalframe that brings up it's just
(06:21):
so difficult to explain thatthat's not always therapeutic
right away.
And my therapist I had broughtthat up to her and she had said
she lost her son 10 years agoand she has one of those frames
coincidentally that kind of runsthrough and even sometimes when
(06:42):
his picture comes up she justmelts like just freezes from
that pain.
I don't know if that answeredthe question or not.
Dr. Dean (06:52):
Yeah.
there's no timeline on grief orone way to grieve or find
comfort or have that connection.
for me I had to go through thosepictures right away.
And then there was a period oftime I didn't want to look at
them.
And so it varies for everysingle person.
There's definitely no timelineor expectation and you just
grieve in the way that feelsbest for you.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (07:15):
And I would like to look at pictures, but
it's also weird because she wassick for five years.
So a lot of that time that'swhen we got really close again.
But then it's because she wassick.
And then she looks sick, not allthe time, but then, you want to
remember them at their best orwhatever, but then it's just so
(07:39):
convoluted.
You don't want to focus on whattook their life, but also that's
what took their life.
Dr. Dean (07:47):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (07:49):
And, how do you Go through that without
addressing, this is why shedied.
Dr. Dean (07:56):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (07:56):
I think I struggle with that because of my
job.
Dr. Dean (08:00):
Do you wanna say more about her illness and not
watching the for five years
Cally Marzolf-Adams (08:05):
She was diagnosed with, metastatic
pancreatic cancer at the age of40.
Okay.
She was in the midst ofinfertility treatments and had
done IVF a few times.
Her and her husband had decidedto adopt and she was really
excited.
They painted the room and Iremember laying on the floor at
(08:27):
my house, and it was like 10o'clock and my brother in law
called me.
And he was like, can you come tothe ER?
They found something on herultrasound.
And I'm like, wait, she's in theER.
I didn't even know whathappened, but she was having
abdominal pain.
And even me as a nurse, I waslike, Oh my God, she's pregnant.
what if they found, what if thisis a miracle?
(08:48):
And so I went in having thiswhole other set of thoughts, and
they found like all these livermats.
And the doctor kept, the ERkept, doctor kept saying that,
and I'm like, mets from what?
there's nothing, so metastaticdisease means, I'm sure you
know, but it's, the cancer hasspread from one primary site to
(09:08):
another.
Dr. Dean (09:09):
no.
Thank you for sharing that.
For
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:11):
yeah, I gotta, remember that.
But I'm like, she's 40 yearsold, she does not have liver
mets, and Like I said, from whatthere's nothing on her CT scan.
She had a gallstone.
So when they were doing like theultrasound and moving it around,
it must've dislodged and thenher pain went away.
Dr. Dean (09:30):
Mm mm-Hmm?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:31):
But they still saw these spots on her
liver.
And I'm just like, it's, I wasnot even as an oncology nurse,
like a cancer nurse.
I did not believe that it wasmetastatic disease.
Dr. Dean (09:47):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:47):
So it was all a whirlwind from there.
And, I got a differentperspective about how people can
be in denial.
Dr. Dean (09:57):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (09:58):
And I was not believing it well into her
starting treatment, even that,
Dr. Dean (10:04):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (10:05):
this was actually cancer.
So she had, gone on treatment.
And was getting chemo.
She quit her job, like prettyharsh chemo.
and then a clinical trial becameavailable, which she did.
And she did great for 10 months.
She was the first patient on aclinical trial.
and then she had progression,which means The measurable
(10:29):
disease in her pancreas wasbigger.
So she had to come off the trialand resume like standard of
care, which is really limitedfor pancreatic cancer.
Unfortunately there's not awhole lot to offer in that
disease, site right now.
And then it was found threeyears in, she developed these
huge, ovarian tumors and, theywere able to take them out.
(10:54):
And then that pathology actuallyended up being different than
her original diagnosis.
Dr. Dean (11:00):
mm-Hmm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (11:01):
but then they looked at the original
tissue and said actually she wasmisdiagnosed.
So she has had treatment forthree years for adenocarcinoma
and now they're finding out thatshe actually has neuroendocrine
carcinoma, which does make senseas to a little bit why she was
(11:23):
doing so well, because thesurvival rate for pancreatic
cancer is not good at all.
Dr. Dean (11:29):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (11:31):
So she switched to a different,
treatment and at that timethough, it was in her bones and
she, was already having reallybad side effects from all the
chemo and, you would neverreally know it, but she shared,
stuff privately, with me and,stuff that she, was starting to
(11:52):
feel, obviously, worn out.
Dr. Dean (11:54):
Was she getting treated where you work?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (11:57):
So she had a consultation where I, so I was
on the inpatient oncology unitat the time, and so I was able
to help facilitate some thingsto get her, a biopsy quicker and
stuff like that.
Thankfully, because the way herprimary care physician had it
set up was that she would seeinterventional radiology in a
(12:17):
week.
And I'm like, no, this is notacceptable.
She is 40 years old and we don'teven have, at that time multiple
doctors looked at her CT scanand didn't see a primary.
So I of course asked herpermission, but I'm like,
something has to be done.
So she.
ended up having, after herbiopsy results and all that, a
(12:40):
consult where I work now, whichis the outpatient oncology,
facility.
But those doctors here, rotateinpatient, so I knew, the whole
group.
And then she did start to seepalliative care here, the summer
that she died.
Dr. Dean (12:58):
How long ago was that?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (13:00):
It was two years in August.
Dr. Dean (13:03):
So 2021.
What was that process like,watching the slow progression
for you?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (13:13):
It was pretty terrible.
I felt like I knew too much,
Dr. Dean (13:18):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (13:20):
I noticed she was getting cachectic and
her teeth were like falling outand she like couldn't sit on
hard surfaces because of thedisease in her sacrum.
And honestly, I just wanted itto happen.
(13:40):
I'm gonna be very honest.
I couldn't stand the thought ofwatching her suffer the way that
I've seen people suffer.
And, you don't of course knowhow it's gonna end up happening.
So I just was like, I don't wanther to get a bowel obstruction
(14:03):
where, you're throwing up allthe time.
And I knew all these differentscenarios.
And I just was like, pray andpray.
I honestly hoped that she wouldlike, this sounds terrible, but
(14:25):
I'm just here to be honest.
I was hoping she would like, diein a car accident or something
else.
Dr. Dean (14:32):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (14:34):
Because I just couldn't stand the thought
of watching this happen, youknow?
Um,
Dr. Dean (14:48):
Did you ever share that with her?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (14:51):
Which part?
Dr. Dean (14:53):
That you hoped that she wouldn't suffer?
Maybe not how, but yeah.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (14:58):
Yeah, and she didn't want to either.
And, she did what she needed todo, but when there was nothing
else to do, she signed right onwith hospice.
She was very, matter of factabout more stuff than everyone
else was But I truly believelike from what I've seen in
(15:20):
oncology that.
people know their time.
Somehow they, even if you'relike all the labs and everything
looks fine and there would be noindication why this person would
be saying like there,something's not right.
(15:40):
I truly believe that peopleknow, and I think she knew
before her last set of scans
Dr. Dean (15:47):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (15:48):
that.
They weren't gonna be good, andI think everybody else did too,
but I knew in a more detailedsense from her physical, signs.
We had gone to the beach inApril.
We had planned a trip inSeptember, which we had been
doing for a while.
(16:09):
And like last minute, I wasrecovering from hip surgery.
So I hadn't started my new jobyet.
And she was like, before you goback to work, do you want to go
to the beach?
And I'm like, Not really.
Like I just had hip surgery acouple months ago.
I'm just like, all these thingswere coming up.
I have two little kids.
(16:30):
Will, my husband couldn't getoff work.
And of course, I went and I'm soglad I did because I know that
she knew she wasn't going tomake it
Dr. Dean (16:39):
Mm hmm.
I'm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (16:40):
till September.
And that was her last, like itall makes sense now.
Dr. Dean (16:49):
Mm hmm.
What do
Cally Marzolf-Adams (16:52):
And I wasn't, I feel like I wasn't
very nice to her.
Dr. Dean (16:58):
you mean?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (16:59):
That trip, I was in pain, and I knew she
was dying, I felt upset, andjust, it's that anticipatory
grief,
Dr. Dean (17:14):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (17:14):
I mean, I enjoyed myself, and we had, a
good time.
It's not that.
It's just, there was thatelephant in the room that.
Dr. Dean (17:23):
I wonder if what you're hinting at was that you
were closing yourself off alittle bit so it was easier to
say goodbye.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (17:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (17:33):
Yeah.
but I wonder if you could findcompassion for yourself and just
to give yourself some compassionfor that time.
Yeah, for sure.
It sounds like it was difficultfor you to manage your knowledge
from your professional work andbalance that with your personal
(17:58):
and your love for her.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:00):
Yeah, because she was doing the exact
opposite in a way of what I didknow.
Dr. Dean (18:07):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:07):
She wasn't the typical patient either.
So Yeah.
While I had a lot of knowledge,I also was completely out of my,
this is my sister, like not aneighbor or I was not thinking
clearly,
Dr. Dean (18:26):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:28):
as far as what this really meant and
everyone was asking mequestions, and it was just like
a lot of pressure But then ifyou say pancreatic cancer to
anybody they're like oh, no.
It's not like something thatPeople are like, Oh, you can
beat this.
(18:48):
There's none of that,
Dr. Dean (18:50):
Right.
Which
Cally Marzolf-Adams (18:50):
is actually for Sarah better because she was
always very blunt.
And we had talked about the factthat it's metastatic, meaning
she'll never be cured and shewas almost okay with that
because When you can be cured,then you wonder if it's coming
(19:11):
back.
And, she had thought a lot aboutwhat this meant and how to carry
on, the remainder of her life,however long it was going to be.
But yeah, as far as me knowingstuff, it, her husband would
send me her labs.
Like it was very, there was noboundaries.
Dr. Dean (19:34):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (19:35):
And that was by choice.
She wanted me, I wanted her.
Dr. Dean (19:39):
Okay.
So
Cally Marzolf-Adams (19:40):
it was fine.
But then my mom stepped in andwas the caregiver for my
daughter.
Cause she was two and a half orone and a half.
When Sarah was diagnosed.
And then my second daughter wastwo and a half when she died.
My mom wanted me to be with herand she was fine being with
(20:04):
Elle, but I spent a lot of timelike going to appointments and
treatments and cause at thatpoint also, her husband was very
paralyzed, with the wholesituation and, I just took over,
at her request.
Dr. Dean (20:23):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (20:24):
And then once things, got into a routine,
I didn't go to every singlething and, But, there was a time
where I knew, something wasgonna happen.
you can only be on sometreatments and stuff like that
for so long without, having sideeffects.
Her, gallbladder shut downbasically.
And where in a normal person,they would just, do a
(20:46):
cholecystectomy, which is justtaking the gallbladder out.
They couldn't because of whereher cancer was.
So they had to put in a drain.
For a while to get theinflammation down.
And then she did end up havingsurgery, but I helped her take
care of the drain and give hershowers.
And, she was kind of a moreprivate person.
(21:07):
That was not something sheloved.
But I was pretty honored for herto ask me.
Dr. Dean (21:15):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (21:17):
She, took care of me so much.
I felt like the roles werereversing a little bit and for
once I could do something forher
Dr. Dean (21:27):
Mmhmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (21:28):
as hard as it was.
I thought someday I'll help herwith her newborn because I'm a
mom first.
This was not my plan.
And I think that is a wholeseparate part of grieving.
Dr. Dean (21:43):
Yeah,
Cally Marzolf-Adams (21:44):
Like what things were supposed to be
Dr. Dean (21:48):
right.
And I think you mentionedearlier, too, the whole out of
order grief, but also out oforder life, if you will, that
you had expected to be there andbe able to be an aunt and help
her and vice versa.
Do you want to say more aboutthat?
How that's changed for you?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (22:08):
It's very isolating in the sense that
things that come up, like myaging parents and stuff like
that.
It's like, you're doing this,you're going to have to do this
on your own now.
Dr. Dean (22:18):
Mm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (22:20):
And unfortunately, 11 days after
Sarah died, my mother in lawdied.
Dr. Dean (22:26):
Oh, and so
Cally Marzolf-Adams (22:31):
not having this support of your spouse,
because I mean, I wasn'tsupporting him the way that I
wanted to either.
but seeing what he had to dobecause it was his mother and
all that goes into being theexecutor of the estate and
(22:52):
things like that it was eyeopening like oh my gosh that's
gonna be all on me.
And just things that you assumethat they're going to be there
for, that you talk about whenyou're younger or let's do this
together.
Let's do, it's just all gone.
Dr. Dean (23:17):
I can relate to that.
Very much having lost my onlysibling as well, out of order,
right?
Aging parents is a difficultthing.
Were you able to haveconversations with her about
that before she died?
About you having to take care ofyour parents and all of that?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (23:38):
She was always very blunt.
She was just like, sorry.
I know I'm going to die.
unless an event happens orsomething like I'm going to die
before mom and dad and basicallylike I don't want to either,
She's didn't want to leave mealone.
but obviously she didn't have achoice.
(23:59):
So there weren't as many reallyin depth conversations because
it was just like, that's the wayit is.
And if for some reason one ofthem dies before me, which I
doubt, of course, we'll figureit out.
There wasn't a whole lot of,advice,
Dr. Dean (24:17):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:18):
which I wouldn't expect, but she pretty
much knew that she was gonna diebefore them, so there was not a
whole lot she could help mewith.
Dr. Dean (24:29):
Yeah.
I'm curious, were you workingthis whole time that she was
ill?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:38):
Yeah, I was working the whole time.
Dr. Dean (24:40):
How has losing her to cancer changed you and your work
in that way?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:47):
Well, so when I was working through when
she was getting treatment andstuff, she would go to UPenn in
Philly.
Dr. Dean (24:55):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:56):
So she wasn't getting treated around
here,
Dr. Dean (24:58):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (24:59):
or like where I work specifically.
But honestly, it was such a gooddistraction and it was a way, So
she didn't need as much help asa lot of people, probably mostly
because of her age and thingslike that, but she had a really
good support system.
And so I would just think when Iwent into work, what can I do
(25:22):
best for these people that I'mtaking care of to honor her and,
it took on a whole new meaningof treat others how you would
want to be treated or you wouldwant a family member treated
because I always thought I knewhow it felt or I thought I could
(25:43):
empathize, as much as I could,but you really don't know until
you're on that other side and Soit gave me a different
perspective about people beingin denial or people not
understanding.
We would say like, how can younot see this person is like
(26:04):
dying?
It gave me a whole newperspective on you're not
thinking the way that youthought before.
It's like when someone says, oh,I don't know how someone could
murder this person.
Like you, you're not thinkingthe way this person's thinking.
You can't compare because youdon't think like this person
(26:25):
thinks.
So of course you wouldn't dothat.
And I'm not saying it's okay,obviously, but you can't think
about it because you just trulydon't know.
There were some times where Iwould break down and just not be
able to care for certain people,or I thought I couldn't, I
(26:48):
should say.
But as soon as I had gotten thispatient shortly after she was
diagnosed that He was in his midforties and had pancreatic
cancer and he was coming in withjaundice, which is yellowing of
the skin because a bile duct isclogged, usually by a tumor or
something.
And I'm like, I can't have him,I can't take care of him.
(27:09):
But as soon as he came up intothe room that was my room.
I was like, of course I can, ofcourse I can.
And it was the best.
He was the best person, if Ihadn't met him, sorry, I
would've been so sad.
it's just helps me think, and Inever really, I didn't share my
(27:36):
story about my sister a wholelot, to patients, because I'm
not there to do that.
Unless it felt right.
But, everyone that I talked toand stuff was surprised that I
could stay doing what I'm doing.
but that was easy compared toafter she died.
Dr. Dean (27:57):
Mm hmm.
What was that like for you goingback to work after?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:02):
It was terrible because for one, my mom
takes care of my girls.
I felt bad that she had to comeback to work.
Dr. Dean (28:13):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:14):
And then, my husband had been off so much
with caring for his mom.
So he had to go back to work,and I got three days of
bereavement time,
Dr. Dean (28:28):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:28):
which I think is just tragic.
Dr. Dean (28:33):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (28:36):
I didn't really have a supportive, my
team itself was supportive, butI felt like there weren't a lot
of options other than comingback because I was a newer
employee, not of the healthsystem, but of this department.
And, every day was extremelyhard.
(29:06):
I don't remember a lot of, thevery early days of, actually
getting here and, functioningand, getting through that time.
But there would be, like,certain sounds or certain things
that I would see that would justreally trigger me and pretty
much devastate me the rest ofthe day.
(29:27):
Or I would go to the bathroom orgo to my car, or, just, have
moments alone.
So she died in August and thenthat April I was having really
bad intrusive thoughts and justdidn't want to be here anymore.
Dr. Dean (29:49):
hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (29:50):
And so I took a two week FMLA
Dr. Dean (29:54):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (29:55):
and spent time with my husband and my
girls and we took them to thebeach for a couple days and I
set up some more counseling andnobody tells you to do that.
Like you have to figure it out.
Dr. Dean (30:12):
I'm glad that you got that help.
Was it helpful to work throughthose intrusive thoughts and
ideation that you had?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (30:22):
Yeah, I didn't realize that I was having
them.
It was very weird until I waslike, oh yeah, it's not normal.
Like you shouldn't feel like a
Dr. Dean (30:30):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (30:31):
What if this happened and it was
happening like every day likewhen I would go to work across
the bridge like what?
if I just went off the bridgeand just thinking that I truly
cannot live without her and thenjust going in these cycles of
like Why am I?
(30:54):
Here with these two beautifulchildren and she's not and
what's the point?
things are never the same and itdidn't help my husband obviously
was he lost his only parent
Dr. Dean (31:06):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (31:06):
like I just felt like not good anywhere, and
I didn't realize at the timethat it was that serious,
Dr. Dean (31:18):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (31:19):
until I talked it out with some of my
coworkers and realized, it's notreally okay I shouldn't have to
live like this
Dr. Dean (31:28):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adam (31:29):
essentially.
And what does it mean not tolive like this, but To live at
all.
And, where to, where do you gofrom there?
after you talk about it, thenwhat, it's just like this
awkward.
And then you're like, I feltlike that one time, but did I
(31:50):
really, then you start to thinkdid I really feel like that?
Everybody probably thinks thatit's just like this constant,
Dr. Dean (32:01):
Trying to reassure yourself.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:03):
Yeah, and that's why, I didn't go to the
E.
R.
Dr. Dean (32:05):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:08):
it didn't seem that serious at the time.
that makes
Dr. Dean (32:11):
What has helped you even then or since then cope?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:17):
I'm still finding things because I feel
like I'm so focused on takingcare of my kids.
And.
I just assumed that nothing wasgoing to help.
Dr. Dean (32:28):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (32:29):
Time, outside, quiet time by myself.
Sometimes I really don't want tobe alone.
A lot of times, in thebeginning, I was petrified to be
alone because I just didn't wantany silence.
Silence.
My therapist really helped me.
(32:50):
and I'm still honestly workingon what does it look like to
work on enjoying things again,or, At first I thought, oh, I'm
going to raise money forpancreatic cancer awareness.
I wanted to do these things, butthen I was just like, I can't.
Dr. Dean (33:09):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (33:09):
And so those would be my go to things.
if this was a friend or, someoneelse's parent that it's just so
different and paralyzing.
that I think.
Probably like the first year anda half at least, I was just
trying to take it day by day andjust live and keep everyone on
(33:35):
track and healthy and I hadshoulder surgery basically a
year after she passed away.
And the recovery from that hasbeen the worst orthopedic
recovery I've ever had.
I've had many surgeries and Ithink it's because I'm the
grief.
Dr. Dean (33:54):
Yeah, of course.
I think that's something wedon't talk about enough is how
there's physical reactions togrief.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (34:02):
and I want to highlight, you said, I'm still
in this, like there was somejudgment on yourself for still
working through this.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:12):
Like still figuring out
Dr. Dean (34:13):
Yeah, but let's normalize that because you
expected her to be here another,I don't know, 40, 50 years,
right?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:24):
Yeah
Dr. Dean (34:25):
You're two years in and there's no timeline on
grief, So this is really earlyin the grief process.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:32):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (34:33):
It's going to take time to figure out how to live
with joy and grief at the sametime yes, that's
Cally Marzolf-Adams (34:37):
exactly right I think too because there
was always this"but she" or"atleast" That people, I truly
understand that people meanwell.
(34:57):
And I hope that if I've everdone that to anybody, that they
know it was just my ignoranceand not truly what I meant or
how it to come out because thosewords are just so hurtful.
Dr. Dean (35:22):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (35:23):
And because she lived so long, there was and
is so much,"Oh, my gosh, I can'tbelieve that.
At least she got to see XYZ.
At least you got that time withher." I truly don't believe
people mean anything by it.
(35:44):
I just think that they have notexperienced a situation where
that is just not acceptable,it's not good enough.
So some of these things haveaffected, the grieving process,
because it makes you feel like,oh, yeah, you're right, at least
she, lived five years.
Like, how dare I
Dr. Dean (36:04):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (36:04):
be upset that she's not here when she got
five years?
I know that's not rational tothink like that, but I know it's
a way of people, making mostlythemselves feel better, or feel
like they're contributing to,her legacy as in a good thing,
but it's just, I think all thoselittle things chip away at any
(36:26):
value that a sibling puts ontheir right to grieve.
Dr. Dean (36:32):
Yes.
It's another way that grief isinvalidated, whether, we're here
talking about sibling grief, butI think that is true for so many
losses.
When people start with"at least,"or"but," whatever, it follows
the but, it just invalidatesyour pain.
And you're already feeling likeyou don't have the right to
(36:52):
grieve as a sibling.
So then you add on to thisinvalidation, and I think you're
right.
I don't think people usuallymean harm by saying those
things, but I think what happensis they say it like almost as if
you didn't think of that.
So that's going to make you feelbetter.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:11):
Yeah, I'm uh, And of course I know that,
Dr. Dean (37:15):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:16):
but sometimes I'm like, that's not
good enough.
And it's okay to say I wantedmore.
I wanted her to be a mom.
I wanted her to continue her lawcareer.
I wanted so many things
Dr. Dean (37:31):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:32):
and it's almost like, well, don't be
greedy.
She got five years.
So I think that's definitelybeen something that you have to
build resilience for.
Dr. Dean (37:44):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:44):
Through her five years of being sick and
stuff.
I heard that all the time.
At least she's not having sideeffects.
At least you found it early, allthese things.
And you're like, Oh,
Dr. Dean (37:56):
Right.
okay.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (37:58):
At that time, it's like easier to handle
those comments.
But then when they die, it's Oh,just stop.
Dr. Dean (38:04):
Yeah, there's a cancer organization here, it's Young
Adult Survivors United, and thefounder of that often reminds
people, there is no good cancer,there is no good situation here,
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:18):
a great way to put it.
Dr. Dean (38:21):
How do you respond to those kind of statements now?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:24):
I have started to say, and I'm still
sad.
Dr. Dean (38:30):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:30):
Yes, She is amazing.
And yes, she was the 3 percentof people who survived after
five years.
She made it one month past fiveyears.
And I know it's because she's sostubborn that she was really
just holding out.
But I want people to know thatwhen they go through this and
(38:53):
someone says that to them, thatthey can speak up and say,"And
it still sucks.
Dr. Dean (38:59):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (38:59):
And it still is painful." Because I
would hate that when someonesays that to them, that they
feel so alone and isolated andthat they should be grateful and
all these different things.
So I just.
I've started to say,"And while Iagree with you, it still sucks.
(39:26):
And it's still not fair.".
Dr. Dean (39:29):
I love that you're doing that, because what you're
doing is validating yourself infront of them to also make a
point that your grief is valid.
So thank you for sharing that
Cally Marzolf-Adams (39:39):
approach.
And it's it's if I don't believethat it's valid, who is going
to?
So most of this has been provingto myself that.
I deserve to not be compared toa spouse, a parent,
Dr. Dean (39:54):
Mm-Hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (39:55):
even another sibling.
Everybody's different.
And, oh, at least she didn'thave kids.
That's the worst one.
I just want to just punch peoplein the face, to be honest.
When they say that at least shedidn't have kids.
I'm like, oh my God.
That's so rude.
Do you know how hard she workedand wanted to have kids?
Oh, that one is still verytriggering to me.
Dr. Dean (40:16):
I would imagine, especially given the
circumstances of how the cancerwas found, that that is very
painful.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (40:23):
Yeah.
yeah, I think.
you want to shut everything out,you want to shut people out, but
you also need them.
Then people come and then theyleave.
Everyone's there at first andthen it's like nobody's there.
So I think I was not prepared.
I don't think anyone can prepareyou for that.
But that can also be veryhurtful
Dr. Dean (40:46):
In an earlier episode this season, when I talked to
Jillian, she had this greatmetaphor about the well and how
in those early days of grief,you're in a well and people know
that you're in there and theycan toss in food and water and
drink
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:02):
Yes, I heard
Dr. Dean (41:03):
whatever.
Yeah.
And then
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:05):
to hers.
Dr. Dean (41:06):
they're like, abandon you.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:08):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (41:10):
We forgot we need to get you out of the well.
And I think that's what you'retalking about.
I'm curious too, because yousaid you know that you deserve
to not be compared to a spouse,or a child, or a other sibling.
Obviously not the children, buthow has that panned out for you?
The comparisons?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:28):
Not the best because I still get really
sucked into.
especially cause I have twodaughters.
Like when she got sick, where doI fit
Dr. Dean (41:38):
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (41:38):
in this?
I'm not her spouse, so I don'thave immediate decision making
unless she wouldn't say that.
I'm not her parent.
I'm not even her older sibling.
But I'm an oncology nurse, so Ifit right in, I always wonder
what if I wasn't.
What if I wasn't in medicine atall?
Would I be valued at all?
(42:00):
And I try not to go down thatroad because I don't want to be
compared, but I do compare.
So I
Dr. Dean (42:08):
oh, you're doing the comparison yourself.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:10):
don't want to, but I do.
So I think too, because I havetwo daughters that I think how
could my mom still befunctioning?
How could she still be living atall, when your daughter dies,
but then I'm also like, my onlysister died
Dr. Dean (42:29):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:29):
I'm like you at least have me but like
Dr. Dean (42:32):
There's that, at least.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:34):
Yep like at least you have me but also her
daughter died,
Dr. Dean (42:40):
hmm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:41):
So it's not set in stone for me as much as I
want to say I don't compare.
Dr. Dean (42:49):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (42:49):
I do in my mind.
And that's the honest truth.
Dr. Dean (42:52):
I mean it's hard not to do that.
We look at our parents losingchildren and those of us that
are parents look at our childrenand put ourselves in that place
and validating for ourselvesthat we did lose our siblings is
also an approach to kind ofcounterbalance that.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (43:07):
Yeah.
It's all hard.
It's not harder.
It's just different, right?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:12):
Right, I've had some hard conversations with
my mom because.
It's hard when I share somethingthat I'm feeling, I don't feel
like it's right for me to sharesometimes how I feel
Dr. Dean (43:23):
Mm.
Mm.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:26):
because she's her mom and while it might
be met with, I understand, I'mhere for you, it might also be
met with, Oh, I know.
You're talking to her mom, Ilost my daughter.
And so sometimes I think who amI to be sad about this in front
(43:49):
of her?
Dr. Dean (43:50):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (43:51):
Or, say I really miss this and her say,
yeah, of course, so do I.
And I know It's not putting medown or anything like that.
It's just her experience.
Just like I'm trying to sharemine.
Dr. Dean (44:04):
Right.
Where are you in grief today?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (44:06):
I really have some weeks I am not good at
all.
Sometimes I'm think I'm okay.
But then I know I'm not gonna beokay soon.
So that's a false sense of oh,things are gonna be fine.
mm hmm.
And I remember feeling thatreally early on, the cycle
starting.
There was a thing at mydaughter's school the October
that my sister died in August.
(44:28):
And I remember having it was acouple hours where I was like,
oh my gosh, things are gonna beokay.
I really feel like things aregoing to be okay, and then just
a ton of bricks, it wasn'tagain.
Dr. Dean (44:40):
hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (44:40):
I think I'm having fewer periods of time
where I think it's not going to,or I know it's not going to be
how I want it to be, and, Istill can't fathom, that I will
never see her.
It's, unreal to me that is thereality.
Dr. Dean (44:58):
Yeah.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (44:58):
I look forward to the day where, I can
look at pictures again.
Or, watch videos or something.
I would imagine that I would beable to do that at some point.
I don't know when, but every dayis an effort to make the
decision to bring her with me inwhat I'm doing.
And it's hard, but what's harderis thinking that she's not with
(45:21):
me.
Dr. Dean (45:22):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (45:24):
So Either way, it's hard and I went to see
a medium.
I've gone to her before, but Iwent last March around my
birthday and she said, what'smost painful is thinking that
they are somewhere way far away.
Dr. Dean (45:40):
mm hmm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (45:41):
And me in my mind, I'm like, she is.
But she's like, if.
You ask her to come with youplaces, ask her to go to work,
ask her to go to the park whenyou take your kids, pretend like
she is with you.
And since I started doing that,I have felt a little bit more as
she's not so far away, thensometimes that reality just hits
(46:04):
me, But I think, whatever youcan find to make you feel closer
to them.
Some of the things that, youthink that you would have great
memories and you do, I can't dothem.
Dr. Dean (46:17):
Mm hmm.
it's painful because it comeswith the fact that the loss is
there, too, or that you
Cally Marzolf-Adams (46:22):
but I think like this whole time when I
thought, when I knew she wasgonna die or whatever, I
thought, Oh, I'll live.
on in her memory.
And, I had these plans
Dr. Dean (46:35):
Mm hmm.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (46:38):
and not being able to follow through
with them I feel like I'm doinga disservice to her and her
memory.
For some reason,
Dr. Dean (46:45):
I assume that you're working with your therapist on
these type of topics.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (46:49):
Yeah, I haven't talked to her recently.
but I do talk to the chaplain atwork.
and I know that therapy is soimportant and I know that, it is
not ending for me.
I just,
Dr. Dean (47:03):
I just had to prioritize what you needed.
Yeah.
I'm glad.
are there other ways that you'vefound support?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (47:08):
through social media, Just even being
invited to talk about it is sovalidating and so important and
so supportive.
If somebody would just ask me,tell me about your sister, that
is goes so far.
And of people, like Sarah wasvery active on Facebook.
(47:30):
She would post every time shehad chemo and her why I chemo,
So I think a lot of people feellike they know her story, so not
a whole lot of people ask meabout her story, which is fine,
but I think just saying, tell memore, tell me more about her
and, I think, when you putquestions, Yes or no, or tell me
(47:53):
this or just that is sosupportive because it's it's
going to a safe place thatsomebody knows what it's like.
And, so I think the social mediaas not helpful as it is
sometimes has been superhelpful, in this case and, I
(48:16):
think support.
sometimes looks like just havingsomeone say her name.
Just tell me, that you thoughtof a story that reminded me of
her.
The support is so nontraditional.
I wouldn't think that would feellike support, but it really
does.
Dr. Dean (48:33):
Yeah.
thank you for that feedback, andthose ideas.
Those are great.
Is there anything else that youwanted to share, either about
her or sibling loss before wetalk about the favorite memories
that you have?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (48:44):
Mostly what I would want to share is that
you're not alone.
and your situation might beunique.
And of course, like everyrelationship is unique, but
there's probably someone thatfeels like you do.
Dr. Dean (48:58):
mm-Hmm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (48:58):
I always thought that was cheesy when
people would say to me, I justfelt like there's nobody that
feels like this.
There's nobody that.
Is an oncology nurse that theirsister got cancer.
Like it just doesn't happen, butI'm sure it does.
And it's just all the thingslike what you're feeling is
okay.
it really is.
(49:20):
And I just think when you're inthat moment, if somebody's not
sitting with you and telling youthat you start thinking all
kinds of crazy things, notcrazy, but just you're not the
same person that you were.
Dr. Dean (49:34):
right
Cally Marzolf-Adams (49:34):
I remember the specific day and hour that I
was not the same.
Dr. Dean (49:40):
Right.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (49:40):
And then when she died, there was a line
in the sand and you're notexpected to be the same.
even if you feel like people areexpecting that., I just would
want someone I love to knowthat, of course you're not the
same.
How could you be,
Dr. Dean (49:59):
I was thinking of those exact words as you said
that.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (50:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (50:02):
Thank you for that.
Would you like to share some ofyour favorite memories Sarah and
you?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (50:09):
Yeah, I said earlier, she was the swim
coach of the swim, summer swimteam.
I was on and, we would spend allday.
She would get me up, we wouldwake up together, eat breakfast,
go to the pool, have swimpractice.
She would be the coach and thenshe would lifeguard all day.
(50:31):
And I would stay and hang outand, My mom was a teacher, so
she was off in the summers, but,Sarah basically just took me
under her wing and we'd hangout.
It wasn't all great all thetime.
I definitely annoyed her.
And sometimes I just rememberthinking she's just so weird.
she's so smart that she's justso weird.
(50:52):
And.
I remember this funny storybecause I can't think of
peppermint patties the same wayas she took me to her dad's
house or they were on vacation.
So we let the dog out before shewent back to work.
And she was like, we were goingthrough the cabinets trying to
find snacks and she's Do youwant a peppermint patty and I
(51:14):
was like, Oh yeah, sure.
And she's you actually need to,cause your breath smells.
And I was probably I don't know,11 at the time and I'm like, Oh
my gosh, like very sensitiveabout it.
But she was so matter of fact,take two cause you need it.
Like just certain things likethat.
(51:34):
She was just so blunt and to thepoint.
And, She, when my parents wouldgo out to dinner for their
anniversary, like that was a bigdeal.
We would always have go out todinner and watch a movie
together.
And that was something I alwaysreally looked forward to.
and then, she was there when myfirst daughter was born.
(51:55):
I was induced and it was a threeday ordeal.
And she was there the wholetime.
And of course, like at the timeI was annoyed because I'm like,
ah, everybody's standing aroundhere waiting for this baby to
Dr. Dean (52:08):
mm, mm,
Cally Marzolf-Adams (52:08):
I have no clue what's happening.
And, but then I'm like, oh mygosh, she was just so excited.
And I remember her just beingtruly happy for me and excited.
To meet both of the girls,especially Elle cause that's
when she was waiting in thehospital.
There's so many things that Ihope I never forget.
Dr. Dean (52:33):
Have you considered writing any of it down?
Cally Marzolf-Adams (52:36):
I have, I've written like a good bit
down, It's in a milliondifferent places, but I've had
some of my computer and some, Irely on other people to tell me.
especially like of the younger,uh, when I was younger, but I
remember when she went tocollege, I was devastated.
I thought my life was over.
(52:59):
I remember just crying andcrying.
My aunt.
kept me overnight and my parentstook her to, she went to Vassar,
she went to Pitt too, but Vassarwas her first undergrad and I
just was like my life is over,she's leaving, I have nobody.
She taught me so much aboutdifferent things.
(53:20):
Like we would go explore,wherever she went to school.
Cause she went to Vassar,Amherst, Villanova, Pittsburgh.
So I got a lot of interactionwith different groups of people
at an early age.
thanks to her and, she alwaysliked to spoil me and made it
okay to be annoyed with my momand, stuff like that, that
(53:43):
you're like, if my mom sayssomething funny, there's no one
to look to and, have that mutualagreement that this is silly
and, I still.
think, that she's there and canhear the things.
I just, obviously wish that shewas actually here.
Dr. Dean (54:00):
right.
Mm
Cally Marzolf-Adams (54:02):
but yeah, I just have so many really good
memories that, I think the badoutweigh the good sometimes,
because that's what I lethappen.
I think anybody probably does.
but, when I think she would likesomething, I make sure to tell
my girls Oh, Aunt Sarah wouldreally like that.
Dr. Dean (54:20):
hmm.
Thank you for all of that.
I do think sometimes the waythat someone dies, or the, in
your case, the last few years ofher life, can color how we
remember things.
Well, I really enjoyed talkingto you and, thank you for all
the feedback.
Cally Marzolf-Adams (54:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Dean (54:37):
You're welcome.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and grieving tips forsubscribers.
(54:59):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, subscribe,and share.
Thanks again.
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