May 31, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode of The Broken Pack™: Stories of Adult Sibling Loss, Dr. Dean talks with Kate Chertik, a Pittsburgh woman navigating the devastating grief of losing her brother, Larry, to a fatal scooter accident caused by a city pothole. As a surviving sibling, Kate shares her raw emotions, the impact on her family, and how she turned her grief into advocacy for scooter safety. This episode explores the complexities of sibling loss, the importance of support systems for surviving siblings, and the power of turning tragedy into action.
In this episode you will:
- Hear Kate's powerful story of losing her best friend and brother in a tragic scooter accident has led to advocacy for scooter safety and creation of a support group for sibling loss survivors.
- Be inspired by Kate's resilience and unwavering commitment to honoring her brother's memory.
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
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Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by Not Done Here Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode, I spoke withKate about losing her brother,
Larry, in a tragic, unexpectedaccident involving a scooter and
a Pittsburgh pothole.
We talk about how much sheadmired her brother and the
devastation that she has feltsince losing her brother and
what that has meant for heridentity.
(00:54):
Take a listen.
Thanks for coming on today.
How did you want to introduceyourself to the audience?
Kate Chertik (01:09):
My name is Katelyn Chertik.
I found out about this groupafter my brother Larry passed
away last year.
I'm, 32 born and raised inPittsburgh.
I love this city.
I would say a little bit aboutwho I am, but I feel like I lost
who I was.
I feel like I'm currentlyrebuilding who I am, if that
makes sense.
So honestly, I have no idea howto introduce myself anymore.
Dr. Dean (01:31):
Yeah, I think a valid point is that your identity was
very much wrapped up in beingLarry's sister for a long time.
Kate Chertik (01:38):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (01:40):
Is he older or younger?
Kate Chertik (01:42):
Older.
He was older by four years, butwe were so close and so similar
that honestly, I just toldpeople we were twins,
Dr. Dean (01:52):
So four years difference but he was always
there for you, until he,unfortunately, wasn't.
Kate Chertik (01:58):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (02:00):
Before we talk about losing him, though, I was
curious what you want people toknow about him.
Kate Chertik (02:05):
There's so many things to know.
Larry was so much larger thanlife, so much fun and brought
happiness to so many people.
He was one of those infectioussouls where as soon as you met
him, you loved him.
Friends with everybody.
He walked in a room and he ownedit.
And that's probably why he wasalways great at sales and why he
(02:25):
worked in sales.
But now he was just a phenomenalperson, a phenomenal brother,
phenomenal son, uncle to mydaughter.
It's hard because I wish I couldjust talk about him all day, but
I've gotten so used to over thelast almost 15 months, keeping
quiet.
And I'm sure, with your owngrief that it's like, people
don't really want to hear aboutit.
It just makes them feel awkward.
(02:47):
even still, if I bring them upin conversation, cause I catch
myself still talking about him,like he's here.
people just shy away or theychange the subject and their
discomfort is just written allover their face.
And so I just changed the topic.
Dr. Dean (03:02):
The good news is, I would like to hear more about
him, so you don't have to feelthat way either in this
conversation or if we talkagain, you can reach out, Tell
me all about Larry.
Kate Chertik (03:12):
Yeah.
He was just funny, goofy, sosmart.
of the party, as I said, when hewas in Penn State and his
fraternity, he was the socialchair and he was so good at it
that he actually got theirfraternity shut down.
was, yes, it was like a monthbefore they all graduated and it
was a alumni weekend and theysaid no parties.
(03:34):
And so Larry invited Wiz Khalifaup and Wiz Khalifa performed in
the frat house that weekend.
Dr. Dean (03:43):
not just a party, but also a celebrity party.
Kate Chertik (03:47):
Yes.
Yes.
He, Wiz Khalifa's, tour manageractually was in the same
fraternity with Larry.
So they were good friends.
But yeah, that just goes to showa little bit how Larry is.
Dr. Dean (04:00):
That's fun.
That sounds like a good memory.
Did you, were you up there forthat or?
Kate Chertik (04:05):
No.
So when he was up at Penn State,his freshman year was my
freshman year of high school.
So I did get to go up and travelwith my dad and get to see him.
Dr. Dean (04:14):
You mentioned that you were pretty close, that you
introduced him as your twin.
How was your your relationship?
How would you describe that?
Kate Chertik (04:23):
Very close.
and it's almost sad because Irealized that more so
retrospectively after he passed.
it's one of those things thatyou don't realize how, deeply
intertwined you are withsomebody until they're gone.
And I've even had like Aunts andUncles come back and they're
like, yeah, your bond isspecial.
I just feel like we dealt with alot when we were younger,
surrounding my parents divorce.
(04:44):
So we've just always been close.
You can ask anybody that wasclose with me.
If you knew me, you knew Larry,whether that was me talking
about him, whether that was myfriends hanging out with him.
and I found out through hisfriends afterwards that it was
very much the same for him.
I had people messaging me afterthey found out on Facebook and
they're like, Larry, literallynever shut the fuck up about you
(05:06):
and your daughter.
He was so proud of you, so proudof your daughter.
Yeah, that was my best friend.
genuinely, so much of me is him.
My laugh, the way I talk, I evenwent to college for the same
thing that he did, because Ijust wanted to follow in his
footsteps.
Dr. Dean (05:21):
What was that?
Kate Chertik (05:22):
Marketing.
And I don't even use it.
I'm in finance, but it was justlike, it was just like he had a
marketing company.
And the goal was for me to gofor digital marketing and work
for him.
And.
Both of us work together andcome up with these different
business ideas and retire ourparents, take care of them.
Dr. Dean (05:42):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (05:43):
I'm pretty sure I'm even a tomboy because of
him.
I, Growing up with brothers,especially, but yeah, so much of
who I am was wrapped up in whoLarry was.
Dr. Dean (05:53):
Yeah.
Do you have other siblings?
Kate Chertik (05:55):
I have a younger, a younger brother.
He's technically my half brotheronce my mom remarried with my
stepdad.
Unfortunately, we're not close.
and he wasn't necessarily closeeither with Larry.
He after college, moved toChicago, kept to himself.
since the funeral, I've onlytalked to him twice, and that
was Thanksgiving and Christmas.
So it's been hard.
(06:15):
But, I hate to say this becausesome people genuinely have now
become the only sibling, but itvery much feels like I'm the
only sibling left.
And I'm sure my little brotherdoes feel that in a sense too,
but we didn't have the magicalmoment that some people might've
hoped for this brought ustogether and granted he's still
(06:35):
pretty young.
I'm pretty young, 32, so itcould still happen, but
unfortunately I will never havethat bond with Michael the way I
did with Larry.
Dr. Dean (06:45):
hmm, That makes sense because you grew up in the same
house with the same parents andthen, like you said, the divorce
brought you closer, whereas youdidn't have that with Michael,
Kate Chertik (06:56):
Yes.
Yeah.
and we were just, Larry and Iwere raised the same way, but
like Michael was raised a littlebit differently because of my
stepdad and not in a bad way,but Larry and I went through the
trenches.
Even on our 15th birthdays, mymom took both of us to go get
our worker's permit and we bothhad a job by 15, whereas my
little brother, she was a littlebit more laxed with, and so we
(07:19):
were raised more similarly thanMichael was to us.
Dr. Dean (07:23):
So did your relationship change at all when
you became adults?
Kate Chertik (07:27):
Me and Larry?
Dr. Dean (07:29):
yep.
Kate Chertik (07:30):
Yes, definitely closer.
There was actually a pointbefore I bought this house three
years ago that Larry and I livedtogether.
So it was difficult.
When he graduated high school in2006, he went off to state
college.
So he was middle of the state.
He wasn't necessarily around asmuch as I would have liked him
to.
And after college, Larry left.
(07:51):
Larry went down to Disney Worldto do an internship.
He lived in Kissimmee for aboutfour years, and then he traveled
for a living for two and a half.
So he really just moved back toPittsburgh in 2017.
And.
I was definitely proud of him.
I was proud of him for gettingout of Pittsburgh for getting
(08:11):
out of the state and doing whathe loved.
He worked for Deloitte and hewas a secret shopper for United
Airways.
So he had to audit theirflights.
So he got to travel for free.
he visited 23 countries, whichis awesome.
He's instilled a love oftraveling in me as well.
but I was ecstatic when hefinally moved back in 2017,
'cause I felt like I just got mybrother back.
Dr. Dean (08:35):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (08:37):
Yeah, but I was proud of him.
When I made the comment earlierif you knew me you knew larry
It's because I was braggingabout what he was doing and how
proud I was of him
Dr. Dean (08:46):
Yeah, So how long ago did Larry die?
Kate Chertik (08:50):
This month will be 15 months.
He passed away February 20th oflast year.
President's Day.
Dr. Dean (08:57):
Of 2023.
Kate Chertik (08:59):
Yes.
2023.
Dr. Dean (09:02):
What are you comfortable sharing about losing
Larry?
Kate Chertik (09:06):
About his accident?
Dr. Dean (09:08):
yea
Kate Chertik (09:09):
It's one of those things that is, it's so silly.
And at this point it's becomepublicized.
So it's not like people don'tknow it's been on the news.
He was riding one of thoseelectric scooters downtown.
He lived in the North shore andhe was coming back over from
where the stadiums are, wherethose restaurants are in the
North shore.
And.
Dr. Dean (09:27):
hmm.
Mm
Kate Chertik (09:28):
From what we've learned, he was going through an
underpass and a car was comingup behind him.
So he tried to veer the scooterover closer to the sidewalk and
he hit a pothole.
When he hit the pothole, thehandlebars hit him right in the
spleen and he flew over thehandlebars and smacked his head
on the ground.
And the police said, accordingto the video, he sat on the
(09:49):
sidewalk trying to collecthimself, probably as a guy
trying to shake it off.
And he walked home.
and they found him collapsed inhis apartment hallway's floor,
Dr. Dean (10:01):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (10:01):
we don't know how long he was there, but what
happened was the handlebarsruptured his spleen, so he
started bleeding internally, andthe internal bleeding caused
cardiac arrest.
I think it was 22 minutes forthe paramedics to get there
between when security called,and when they finally got there,
he was in cardiac arrest.
They were able to bring him backand then on the way to Allegheny
(10:25):
general, he had two more cardiacarrests, which is a very short
span.
He was only two or three blocksaway from the hospital and they
performed surgery.
They stopped the bleeding of thespleen.
He had two more cardiac arrestswhile in surgery.
Once they got him closed up, hewas still bleeding somewhere is
(10:45):
what we were told.
So they opened him back up asecond time and they weren't
able to find where that bleedingwas coming from.
So I remember waking up at 2 30in the morning to go to the
bathroom and I had 25 missedcalls from my dad and I was
really panicked.
I thought it was something wrongwith my dad.
It never occurred to me that itwas Larry.
(11:06):
And, he was like, Katie.
You need to get to Alleghenygeneral and I said what's going
on and he said it's Larry and Isaid That's vague.
What's going on?
And he said he's dying And so Irushed I guess he couldn't get a
hold of my mom either So thehospital was sending police to
her house to wake her up.
Dr. Dean (11:25):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (11:26):
I got dressed I flew to my mom's house her and
my stepdad, we all drove down toAllegheny General.
And by the time we got there,the doctor sat with us in the
waiting room and he was like,There's nothing we can do.
Basically we've just beenkeeping him alive because we
knew you guys were on the way.
And we wanted to make sure thatyou could say goodbye.
(11:46):
So we went in, obviously didn'tlook great.
bleeding internally, twosurgeries, five cardiac arrests.
And my mom was very, she'salways very stoic, very rash and
they gave us five minutes and wewere like, all right, you can
stop the medication, basicallykeeping him alive.
It's just all surreal.
Dr. Dean (12:06):
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (12:09):
Yeah.
It's one of those things likemy, even my dad was like, are
you sure you want to see him?
And I'm thinking like,absolutely.
what do you mean?
And I remember grabbing his handand he flinched.
You'd think I've watched enoughmedical shows to know that's
just the body.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
The body's natural reaction.
And, yeah, there was nothingmore they could do.
And we believe genuinely that hewas probably gone before he even
(12:32):
got to the hospital.
Being in cardiac arrest likethat, they're lucky they were
even able to bring him back.
'Cause like I said, we have noidea how long he was collapsed
in the hallway.
It was 22 minutes before theambulance even got there.
Dr. Dean (12:45):
he'd already left the scene of where he was injured
too, right?
So
Kate Chertik (12:50):
yes, yeah.
They found him
Dr. Dean (12:51):
that time.
Kate Chertik (12:53):
Yeah, and honestly, I'm fortunate that he
collapsed where he did because Icouldn't imagine if he had made
it into his apartment complexand collapsed, how long would it
have been before someone foundhim?
Dr. Dean (13:06):
Yeah, how did they make the connection that he was
on the scooter?
Kate Chertik (13:10):
So when the police got there about the same time as
the ambulance, the spin scooterapp was still open on his phone.
He hadn't even ended the ridesyet.
he wasn't, obviously wasn'tthinking clearly to end the
ride.
Spin actually charged him forthe ride, when it finally was
stopped.
But that's how they made theconnection was that it was open
on his app and they were able tosee the last ride he had
(13:32):
requested, paid for, whatever.
Dr. Dean (13:34):
so you didn't have a lot of time to process that It
was rather sudden.
Do you feel like you were ableto say goodbye in those last few
minutes that you had?
Kate Chertik (13:47):
this is one of those questions.
I don't even remember sayinggoodbye.
I just remember telling him Ilove him.
And asking him to wake up.
and even after they stopped themedication, your heart's still
going for a little bit.
You're still breathing.
So it was
Dr. Dean (14:04):
mmm hmm.
Kate Chertik (14:06):
is he really dead?
Can he wake up?
You know what I mean?
That type of thing.
just that little bit of hope.
But no, I don't remember sayingbye.
Yeah.
I think it was, again, it wasjust so fast.
There was only probably 45minutes between getting the
(14:27):
phone call.
And getting to the hospital andmy dad was just like, he's
dying.
So I do remember driving to thehospital, just repetitively
saying please wake up, pleasewake up.
Yeah, it was a tough situation.
(14:48):
It happened what in a matter ofan hour and a half, Between that
accident and when we think hewas gone, it was only an hour
and a half.
It was just so fast, all of it
Dr. Dean (14:57):
hmm.
For our listeners, a lot of themwill know that I'm also from
Pittsburgh, Living here, I'mstruck by when you're saying
that.
I'll be fully honest, when yousaid the pothole, it's such a
Pittsburgh thing to have thisgut reaction about potholes,
right?
And I felt myself being like,oh, There's this joke that
always about potholes here, andI'm
Kate Chertik (15:19):
That it's a survival skill to learn where
the potholes are in Pittsburgh.
Dr. Dean (15:25):
yes, and that really feels different now that you've
described that.
Kate Chertik (15:31):
Well, and having seen those jokes, We've been
hearing those jokes for yearsand then to actually have my
brother pass away because of astupid pothole,
Dr. Dean (15:42):
Mm hmm.
Which I think you actually saidwhen you contacted me.
He died because of a stupidpothole.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (15:48):
Yes.
So yeah, it just feels verytrivial.
It's just one of those thingslike, what?
What?
nobody that got on thosescooters, I didn't just because
I'm a bit like, no, I'm too muchof a grandma
Dr. Dean (16:02):
ahmm.
Kate Chertik (16:03):
But nobody ever thinks that they're going to hit
a pothole and die because of it.
Yes.
It was very frustrating.
Dr. Dean (16:13):
Yeah.
What was it like for you also tonavigate, you knew you were
going to the hospital and thathe was dying.
It sounds like you were hopefulthat he would wake up.
So in those early few days ofmourning, what was that like?
Kate Chertik (16:26):
I feel like I blacked out, to be honest with
you.
It was, again, my mom is verystoic and rash and so she just
handled everything.
She jumped into everything asfar as cleaning out his
apartment, reaching out his tohis job, handling everything
while my dad and I like, barelygot off the couch.
It was devastating.
(16:49):
I mean, was unreal.
It feels like I was seeingmyself from the outside, like it
doesn't even feel like I was inmy body.
I couldn't process it.
And even to this day, it's verysimilar.
obviously we all deal withdeath, right?
Our grandparents pass away,parents pass away.
(17:10):
Grief is everywhere in our life,but this loss for me, rearranged
the world.
Dr. Dean (17:16):
mmhmm well how couldn't it your whole world had
him in it.
Kate Chertik (17:20):
yes.
But even like I said, even withgrandparents before that, and
you you're expecting thatthey're older, but yeah, this
was substantial.
Dr. Dean (17:28):
Mm-Hmm.
Kate Chertik (17:29):
I felt like a zombie, just angry.
I think the anger was thebiggest emotion that I felt
those first few days, like scaryanger.
And for the first few months, I,there was points where I was
even considering committingmyself.
I genuinely thought that therewas no way I was going to get
through it.
Dr. Dean (17:53):
I wonder if you can verbalize what you were angry
about.
Mm-Hmm.
Kate Chertik (18:02):
Everything, angry at God, angry at the universe,
angry at the potholes, angry atthe scooter company.
Anger at my brother and I knowthat sucks to say because
they're not they're gone.
They're not here, but I was soangry at him Especially because
it wasn't his first accident onone of those scooters He had
(18:24):
called me before he fell in theNorth Shore.
Maybe he like I don't know if heHit a curb or hit a pothole
previously.
But he called me with a blackeye the one night.
And so I was just mad.
He even got back on it.
I was upset with him.
I was upset that it was my Ithink, and I think we all go
(18:45):
through this.
We're like, why my family?
Why my brother?
Why my sister?
and I still battle that anger.
That anger, I don't know if it'sever gonna go away.
Dr. Dean (18:55):
right?
Let's normalize this anger for asecond because I think people
are afraid to say Sometimes I'mangry at the person that died,
but it's a normal response andI'm not promoting the five
stages of grief because I'vetalked about it before that's
not actually a great grieftheory, but I do think anger as
(19:16):
an emotion does make sense ingrief and something that we
should talk about.
I get angry at my own brothertoo because he died from a heart
attack in his sleep, but he wasputting off going to a doctor
until certain events happened.
and yeah, I still get angry athim.
Like, why didn't you just go?
Kate Chertik (19:35):
Well, and you make a good point because I was very
angry that Larry sat on thesidewalk and didn't call 911.
I don't know if it's true ornot.
I was told that this car sawLarry fall the car that he had
tried to avoid.
They saw the whole accident andthey asked him like, are you
okay?
Do you need us to call nine oneone?
(19:57):
And how I made the comment aboutguys will be guys that he just
sat there and shook it off.
And I wonder had he called nineone one right then and there,
instead of trying to walk home,would he still be here?
yeah, I do.
And you're right, there is shamein saying that.
Nobody wants to say, I'm mad atmy brother for dying, but I am.
Dr. Dean (20:15):
hmm.
Kate Chertik (20:17):
And I feel it all the time, even with stuff now.
Like, My parents will starttalking to me, about what I'm
supposed to do when they pass.
And I'm like, damn you, Larry.
Like, if you were here, Ishouldn't have to be going
through this by myself.
Dr. Dean (20:34):
Yeah.
Yes.
Kate Chertik (20:36):
think it's, I think it should be normalized.
It's just It's not even directlyat him.
I feel like it's just thesituation.
Dr. Dean (20:44):
Yeah, for sure.
I think, as siblings too, we aresupposed to be there together to
navigate losing our parents.
That's the natural order ofthings.
life and death, right?
And so I think for sure thatfeels lonely.
I just talked to Randye aboutthis a couple episodes ago in
(21:05):
which she's 45 years out and shetalked about how hard that was
to do.
Kate Chertik (21:10):
I think I might have actually seen her quote on
your Instagram page.
It said, I'm sitting herethinking about it, like I have
to do this two more times bymyself.
And it's, how do you not getangry at them for it?
it's not their fault.
Larry didn't choose this, butyeah, it goes with the emotions.
Dr. Dean (21:34):
Yeah.
So beyond the anger, I'mguessing you had other
experiences and it sounds likeyou're navigating too, all of
the family dynamics.
with the different familieswithout him.
Kate Chertik (21:48):
Trying to.
I genuinely feel like I'mwinging it at this point.
I don't know if it's, I, I'm ayear, I'm a, I know I hit the
one year mark, but I've alwaysbeen told that one to two year
mark is brutal, way worse thanthe first year.
And I'm in the middle of that.
I get that.
I understand now.
Dr. Dean (22:07):
I think it's interesting that timeline is
different for everyone.
And I'm a little over four yearsout, right?
So I'm still early in grief andpeople like to tell us that it
gets easier over time.
And I don't think that's true.
I think in some ways, because weget farther from the person,
that it gets harder.
in some ways you just acclimateto it, which that's not easier,
(22:28):
that's just different.
Kate Chertik (22:30):
yeah.
And I feel like that's just, wedon't have any other choice.
So it's, I'm going into abegrudgingly, like I'm not happy
about having to accept thisreality.
I'd give any, even today I'dgive anything to change it.
Dr. Dean (22:46):
You and I talked just before we started recording,
about the news coverage.
I wonder what you want to, oryou don't have to, what you want
to say about that.
Kate Chertik (22:58):
That's been tough.
It became publicized a lot morethan I thought it would.
It was a few months and I'lltell you a little bit about how
that even came about.
It was two months after Larryhad passed away.
I was at dinner with my dad andI saw on the news that the pilot
program for the scooters wasalmost up and the city council
was in talks of extending it orrenewing it.
(23:21):
And I, of course, still in myanger phase.
Just decided to reach out tocity council in general and say,
hi, my name is Katelyn.
This is what happened.
this is why I believe youshouldn't bring the scooters
back.
And from there, a city councilwoman had reached out to me and
then it became Katelyn, do youmind speaking to this
journalist?
(23:41):
So then this journalist reachedout to me and then once the news
got a hold of the journalist'sarticle.
The news reached out to me andsaid, can we interview you?
And, after that, a lawyer did.
A lawyer reached out and said,Hey, I just want you to know I'm
currently representing peoplethat have also been in scooter
related accidents.
(24:01):
Can we get together and talkabout a possible lawsuit?
And at this point it wasn'tsupposed to go beyond just me
giving my opinion and saying,please don't renew these
scooters.
This is why.
and I got really deeply involvedin this and just found out some
things about the scooter companyand how they hadn't been
reporting accidents correctlyand accurately.
(24:24):
They hadn't, the news hadn'teven heard about Larry's death
and it says.
on Larry's death certificatesplenic rupture caused by a
motorized scooter.
So there really was no denyingit.
The ME put it right on hisreport that's how the splenic
rupture happened was from thescooter fall.
Dr. Dean (24:41):
Mm.
Kate Chertik (24:42):
And so that became hard, especially with it being
publicized.
I accidentally made the mistakeof reading all the stupid
comments on social media Andthings like oh, he was drunk and
he deserved it and he's just oneperson What does it matter if he
died?
It's still a mode oftransportation all kinds of
(25:03):
crazy things and So finally theythe scooters ended up going away
But I think they are nowbringing them back and my family
is in the middle of a lawsuitwith Spin, Segway, and the city
of Pittsburgh, and they'retrying to shut us up.
Larry's case was the worst casethere's.
(25:25):
Hundreds of them.
Larry's case was the onlyfatality.
So our lawyer, I should say, wastrying to use him to spearhead
the whole lawsuit.
And the company has come backand said, you can't go after the
city.
You can't go after Segway.
You can't go after Spin.
Because they got bought out by aparent company who filed
bankruptcy.
(25:46):
Which is convenient.
And, so it's been frustrating.
It really has because even justyesterday they asked us, because
they're talking settlement.
They just want us out of theway.
Basically.
They just want us out of the wayso that they can continue with
their plan of paying out theother claimants.
And, so even just yesterday wehad to sit down and talk about
(26:07):
putting a dollar figure onLarry's life.
and, my parents are obviouslyvery upset about that.
So I tried to tell him, I said,it's not necessarily.
Okay.
Putting a dollar figure onLarry's life will never be able
to do that.
That's not possible, but it'sputting a dollar figure on
holding these companiesaccountable.
I just think that the cityitself with the infrastructure
(26:29):
failed us by letting us evenhave them on the roads and these
companies.
if you're telling me that I canbe wearing an Apple watch and I
fall and it can detect a falland prompt me to call 911.
Why are these scooters notequipped with this kind of
technology?
Why isn't there better shockabsorbers?
So it was just a lot ofpetitions, a lot of reaching out
(26:52):
to city council.
Trying to get them out of here,trying to keep them off the
roads and trying to keep thesecompanies.
accountable.
Dr. Dean (27:00):
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (27:02):
and I don't know, I don't know if you watched my
news article, I said, we're adrinking city and we're a
pothole city.
It's
Dr. Dean (27:09):
I actually, yeah, I didn't see it, but I did read
the article.
I,
Kate Chertik (27:13):
that's pretty accurate.
Living in Pittsburgh, we're adrinking city and everywhere you
go, there's potholes all overthe road.
Dr. Dean (27:18):
Sports, drinks, potholes.
Yeah.
combination.
You were able to say that thisis what the city is about.
You want change, it sounds like,so nobody else gets injured or
killed.
Kate Chertik (27:32):
Correct.
Larry's accident involving apothole wasn't the only one.
Another girl that was includedin the lawsuit was in town for I
believe a Kenny Chesney concertAnd she was on her way to the
bar and she hit a pothole andshe fell on the scooter and
lacerated her liver
Dr. Dean (27:50):
Oh, wow.
Kate Chertik (27:52):
So when she I guess she was from out of town.
She was from Indiana and whenshe got back to Indiana She had
to have emergency surgery torepair her lacerated liver.
So Yeah, I don't mind thescooters being around.
I just think the city if they'regonna have them needs to be You
wiser about which roads they'rebeing used on and fix the
(28:12):
potholes.
Dr. Dean (28:13):
Like even those bike lanes, I would think they'd have
to pay attention to that too.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (28:19):
Our lawyer, before he had even, before Larry's
accident, had sent a letter inNovember to the city council and
said, I have a client.
She hit a pothole and laceratedher liver.
These are where are the, all thepotholes are in the North shore.
You need to fix them.
And that was in November.
The city never responded andLarry's accident was in
(28:41):
February.
And so that's another thing.
It's if they had just takenaccountability and fixed them,
would he still be here?
We'll never know.
Dr. Dean (28:54):
So this what if game, as I've called it in the past, I
don't have a better name forthat.
I wonder how much that keeps youfrom processing your grief if at
all.
Kate Chertik (29:08):
A lot.
I think I'll be honest with you.
I think a lot and I think it'sstopped me from even trying to
move forward.
I've been struggling a lotlately with just grieving my old
life, the old me.
What life used to look like andI know it and it stinks because
(29:30):
you're self aware But you justdon't know where to go.
Dr. Dean (29:34):
Yeah.
Do you want to say more aboutwhat you mean by that?
Kate Chertik (29:39):
Yeah so especially the grieving who I used to be I
mean I just used to be carefreeand fun and very similar to
Larry the life of the party likeand now I Isolate now.
I just don't even want to dealwith people.
I don't want to deal withanything And I know that's a bit
of depression, but a lot of itis the grief You And I know it's
(30:04):
stopping me from moving forward.
I just have a lot ofanticipatory grief about
everything.
Like I've even said to friends,like I'm afraid to even have
friendships or relationshipsbecause I'm afraid to get close
to somebody and lose them again.
Dr. Dean (30:18):
Right.
Kate Chertik (30:19):
it's really kept me.
And I've even been afraid to geta new job, right?
Like I'm afraid to change fromthe last version of me that
Larry knew, if that makes sense.
Dr. Dean (30:29):
Mm hmm.
No, absolutely.
I was just thinking about that.
Kate Chertik (30:33):
Yeah, you just want to hang on to every aspect
of life that you had before theypassed away.
Dr. Dean (30:40):
It's almost like we want to preserve who they knew
because that part of us was soimportant to them, or we hope
that it was.
And unfortunately, there's noway to be that person again.
Kate Chertik (30:54):
Correct, and the acceptance has been hard Like I
will literally sit there andlook in the mirror and I'm like
you have to accept this you haveto accept it You're no longer
that Kate.
That's no longer your life andIt's time to create something
new, but it's hard when you knowthey're not going to be there.
Dr. Dean (31:13):
So trying to navigate now how you move forward with
your grief and with the love forLarry.
I wonder what that looks likefor you?
Kate Chertik (31:23):
Baby steps.
I like, I've started this griefgroup.
and a little bit of that wasselfish.
A little bit of that was mewanting to be around people that
can relate.
because I've especially found ithard to relate to anybody these
days and trying to find a newjob.
Trying to do things to honorLarry, like even this is going
(31:45):
to sound so stupid nationalsibling day, which was April
10th.
Dr. Dean (31:50):
Yes.
Kate Chertik (31:51):
I was like, what can I do to honor Larry?
So I went and joined the gymbecause that's something that he
would do, but
Dr. Dean (31:58):
I don't think that sounds stupid.
Kate Chertik (32:01):
I've
Dr. Dean (32:01):
sounds like that is part of what we call the
continuing bond of having thatrelationship with him and he'd
want you to join the gym or thatwas something that reminded you
or connected you with him.
So I absolutely don't thinkthat's stupid.
Kate Chertik (32:13):
Oh, I haven't even gone.
It's been a month.
Dr. Dean (32:17):
it's only been a month
Kate Chertik (32:18):
and it just made me feel better that day to do
something that.
Dr. Dean (32:22):
Mm
Kate Chertik (32:22):
he would have been proud of me for doing.
That's how I, yeah, like Ican't, it's not going to be
these big leaps and boundstrying to get back to normalcy
or trying to get back to life.
just little things.
I'll be honest with you.
(32:42):
I don't know.
I have no idea how I'm supposedto move forward.
Dr. Dean (32:47):
Yeah, it's hard because I think also this idea
of acceptance.
be clear, what you mean by that,I think, and correct me if I'm
wrong, acceptance is not thesame as approval.
I like to remind people of thata lot in my professional work.
but it doesn't mean that it's aneasy process to accept the facts
(33:09):
of our lives that your siblingisn't here, right?
It's still a difficult thing tomove forward with.
Kate Chertik (33:15):
It's like a roller coaster.
I could wake up in the morningfeeling great, like I'm ready to
kick today's ass, and then anhour later I can be sobbing.
Dr. Dean (33:24):
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
Kate Chertik (33:26):
In the morning I can say, okay, Kate, like this
is life now.
What are you going to do to moveforward?
But I can see something thatreminds me of Larry or hear a
song or whatever it is, and I'mright back to where I was 15
months ago.
It's hard.
Those moments are I, and again,even that it's like acceptance
(33:48):
of the fact that I can't evencontrol those moments.
I have to just.
Be in them and get through themtype of Yeah, I feel like it's
gonna be a lifelong processThat's what stinks about the
grief thing is that there is nonobody can definitively say when
you're gonna feel better Nobodycan definitively say when the
anger is gonna stop or when theacceptance is gonna be at a
(34:11):
hundred percent
Dr. Dean (34:16):
That is true.
because grief last, right?
As long as they were supposed tobe here in your life.
and longer, for the rest of yourlife.
What is it like now to be aroundyour parents or your friends?
You said that you're afraid toget hurt and lose new people,
but I wonder what it's like foryou to be around people that are
already in your life.
Kate Chertik (34:37):
To be honest with you.
I feel like grief has reallyshown me You A lot about people.
I feel like I had a lot offriendships fade away and In the
moment, I just didn't care aboutrestoring those friendships.
Grief has to be a bit selfish.
I mean I had to focus on gettingmyself through the day for my
(34:59):
daughter's sake let alone tryingto continue friendships or check
in on friendships but I feltlike a lot of people were just
avoiding me too and I don'tblame them if I could have
avoided me during that period Iabsolutely would have
Dr. Dean (35:13):
That's a valid assessment of self.
Yeah, Because we get upset thatpeople avoid us in grief, and
possibly we would if we could.
Kate Chertik (35:24):
Yeah.
I totally understand.
It hurts.
It stings.
but I wouldn't even, I'vemaintained a couple of those
close friendships.
It is so hard because life hasmoved on for everybody else.
And I just feel very stuck.
even I could be in the middle ofa party or a concert and I will
be in my head thinking abouthim.
(35:44):
So it is, it's difficult.
People will be afraid to bringhim up.
People will be afraid to talkabout him.
They're like, Oh, I don't wantyou to think about him.
There's not a moment of our daywhere we're not thinking about
the person that we lost,especially someone that we were
that close with.
I would still say even at 15months out, 75 percent of my day
(36:05):
is still thinking about Larry.
So it's been hard to maintainfriendships.
Dr. Dean (36:10):
One, I wonder too, because earlier you mentioned
how uncomfortable people becomeand how quiet you've become
around that.
And I think sometimes peopledon't know how to handle the
presence of our sibling in ourconversations, right?
And so they shy away from it,which reinforces this idea that
(36:31):
you're still thinking about himand it still hurts, but it
doesn't feel okay to talk abouthim or whomever you've lost.
Kate Chertik (36:37):
well, and that just makes it more isolating for
us.
I felt like I've done the rightthing as far as reaching out,
getting out of the house, notsitting in my bedroom sulking
all day.
But then once I'm out, I'm like,Oh, this is still pretty
terrible.
yeah.
And I just, I've had a very lowtolerance for things, or I'll
(36:58):
even it's in its little things.
I can hear my friend talkingabout.
How the annoying they thinktheir sister or their brother is
and things like that stilltrigger me I'm like you really
need to just watch and think andget better about those kinds of
things, but they don't know whatwe're going through they don't
understand what I'm even sayingto them.
It's just so they're annoyingsibling They can't even fathom
(37:22):
the pain or what it's like tolose them.
Dr. Dean (37:25):
It's true, right?
We can envy other people'ssibling relationships.
I wonder how you've handledthat.
Do you say something to thefriends?
Kate Chertik (37:33):
I try not to it's really not my place.
because then it just makes itsound like I'm having a pity
party, which I'm not.
I'm just trying to say Hey, youneed to enjoy that bond while
it's still there.
Hey, you need to appreciate thatsibling a little bit more than
you currently are.
I guess they're annoying, butreally think about how
substantial that siblingrelationship is.
Dr. Dean (37:54):
Mm hmm.
I've done the same thing, Ithink, from time to time with
people.
It's okay, I'll just not sayanything, or sometimes I will be
like, Listen, I wish I couldargue with my brother right now.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (38:05):
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
I wish I could.
Somebody was just complaining tome that they had to go see their
brother on Sunday and it wasinconvenient.
I was like, you have no idea howmuch you're going to miss that
one day.
Dr. Dean (38:17):
exactly.
So I know you mentioned thegroup earlier.
Do you want to say more aboutwhat you're doing there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (38:26):
Yeah, it's been a little bit tough.
my own personal therapist hastold me that these groups are
difficult to build and difficultto keep going because people
struggle with talking abouttheir feelings, which I
understand.
So it just came to fruition.
Just as I said, I myself neededthe resource.
It was not available when Ifirst, when the accident first
(38:47):
happened.
If I did find a group, it was,you have to be a year out from
your sibling loss before we'lleven let you join.
And the online groups weren'tdoing it for me.
They just seemed very chaotic.
And unfortunately, I know aunreal amount of people that
have lost their siblings.
So my friend Beth and I had beentalking about getting it
(39:09):
started.
So it was just a matter offinding the place.
And trying to build it up.
It's nothing huge, but it'shelping.
I know it's helping more thanjust me.
I've had other siblings thathave said to me, they're like, I
really appreciate your group.
and it's not that we try to keepit light and casual.
We just let the conversationflow as it does.
(39:30):
But we've talked about all sortsof things and it's just nice to
be around people thatunderstand.
But it also has opened my eyesto the fact that even other
siblings might not understandthe depths of your grief or
every situation.
So different.
There was, a threesome that camein three sisters that had lost
(39:53):
their sister at 62 to cancer.
And they had known for two yearsthat they were going to lose
her.
So it's just very situational.
but it seems to be likeeverybody's getting something
beneficial out of it, which I'mhappy about.
Yeah.
It felt like a way to honor himand still take care of my mental
health at the same time.
Yeah, so Beth is on the episodethat airing the week before this
(40:16):
one.
Okay.
Dr. Dean (40:18):
Yeah, I'm actually curious to learn more about this
group and see how we can worktogether with that if that's of
any use, to you, but alsoperhaps participate in myself.
So thank you for doing thatbecause there are certainly few
resources across the world anddefinitely here.
so thank you.
Kate Chertik (40:37):
Absolutely.
I know so many people that Ihave invited and that have not
gone and I hope they show up,but I've just noticed too with a
lot of people that, that Ifthey're fortunate enough, they
don't need the resource, butI've noticed people that are
further out from their grief,just don't seem to talk about it
as much, I don't know if they'reover it, I don't know what it
(40:58):
is, but it's everybody in thegroup is, it's like a newer lost
me, Beth.
I have a friend who she hasn'teven been at a year yet.
And then I think I have somebodyelse that's two years out.
And so it's all more recent.
That's a little bit tough.
Dr. Dean (41:15):
What I think the challenge there is because
society has said that the normfor us to grieve is a year,
which is ridiculous.
and so I think part of whatyou're doing and part of what
I'm doing with The Broken Pack™and other, grief people are
talking about is let's normalizegrief.
(41:35):
It's a loss that lasts with youfor a lifetime.
And I've talked about thisbefore, and listeners have
probably heard this multipletimes, but my own father is
still very much grieving hisbrother that died six decades
ago.
so for all of our guests, I'vetalked about that.
And given the opportunity totalk and say, tell me about your
sibling, tell me about whoeverdied, mother, brother, cat,
(41:58):
whomever you're grieving, peopleare willing to talk about that
and how it's impacted them.
So I don't know that it'snecessarily people aren't going
to come to the group.
They just don't feel they havethe permission to do that.
And so I think we can work tochange that.
Kate Chertik (42:13):
Yeah, I just, I think it's a huge resource.
Like you said, there's nothingout there.
I think I only stumbled uponthe, Compassionate Friends
Facebook page.
That's actually how I met Beth,by accident, but especially in
that first year, I think itmakes a world of difference.
it's so isolating.
(42:34):
And you think it's one of those,and a perfect example of that is
I just felt like I, the angerthing, going back to being angry
at our siblings, like you don'teven feel like you can express
that to anybody.
And I, people feel ashamed foreven feeling that.
And I just want people to knowthat is okay I mean you have to
if you're not talking about it,you're carrying it and it gets
(42:55):
heavy And so that's why i'm notpushing anybody to go.
I just wanted everybody to knowthat it's a resource that is
there
Dr. Dean (43:03):
Is there a link that we can share?
It's for our listeners.
This is a local group for thePittsburgh area.
but is there a link I can sharefor anyone that would be able to
attend?
Kate Chertik (43:16):
don't have a link what i've been doing is making a
Dr. Dean (43:18):
Okay.
Kate Chertik (43:20):
Which I can send to you
Dr. Dean (43:21):
I can share that.
Kate Chertik (43:21):
it and it just yeah, it gives some basic
information
Dr. Dean (43:25):
Are there other things that you wish you knew or
thought could have been helpfulin those early days, early
months?
Kate Chertik (43:33):
My biggest thing and this is going to sound
contradictory because it's itdidn't necessarily work for me
Reaching out is huge.
I mean being around peoplefinding people that Are willing
to let you listen and let youtalk about the memories.
(43:53):
And I don't care if you want totalk about them for five hours
or
Dr. Dean (43:58):
Mm
Kate Chertik (43:59):
but just finding those people that are willing to
listen is so important.
Those first few days, it was soeasy for me first few months,
honestly, it was so easy for meto isolate and to just let the
depression take over, let thegrief take over.
let the anxiety take over.
and retrospectively, I reallywish I hadn't done that.
(44:21):
Maybe I would be further alongin my healing journey today If I
hadn't isolated the way that Idid in the
Dr. Dean (44:27):
beginning.
Mm
Kate Chertik (44:29):
Yes.
and really just pushed peopleaway.
and not intentionally, it was,again, it was just like an out
of body experience, but thatwould be my biggest suggestion
is finding people, even if theycan't relate to it.
on the specific loss, justfinding people that understand
that grief needs to be talkedabout and that there, we need to
(44:49):
hold space for grief rather thanjust burying it.
Those people are so important.
And I know we don't think thatit'll make us feel better.
We get in our heads and we'relike, nothing's going to make me
feel better.
The only thing that's going tomake me feel better is my
sibling being alive again.
I don't think we realize howinteracting with those people,
even if it's 10 minutes, justgetting what you need to off
(45:12):
your chest is imperative.
it's huge.
Dr. Dean (45:16):
I agree with that.
Now some people don't like totalk, and so you, like myself,
are a, you griever that likes totalk.
And as for some people, it'sjust doing things.
There's different styles ofgrief and grieving.
Kate Chertik (45:31):
My mom threw herself into work.
Dr. Dean (45:33):
Yeah,
Kate Chertik (45:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (45:35):
which many people do.
Kate Chertik (45:37):
busy.
Dr. Dean (45:38):
yeah, started an organization and started grief
group.
Those things are also doingright.
yeah.
So are there other things thatyou wanted to share before I ask
you about the memory?
Kate Chertik (45:53):
No.
No.
I, I second guess my judgmentthese days just because, again,
I can go from being normal andfeeling like the old Kate to
being back in the hospitalwithin a matter of hours.
So it's tough.
Dr. Dean (46:10):
Do you think that the therapy that you are attending
has been helpful for grief?
Kate Chertik (46:15):
No, and I don't say that today.
My therapist was not a griefspecific therapist.
and I feel like she, I probablyshould have talked more than I
did.
I feel like she let me hook alittle bit, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
which is easy to do.
once I start crying, like nobodywants to deal with that.
(46:36):
I really have to.
Was it helpful?
No, because it, we can only hearso many times, it's gonna get
better, it's gonna get easier,you have to feel it.
we know these things,instinctively.
We already know that we don'thave any other choice to get
through it.
I think it would be better tofind a therapist that has
(46:57):
experience in the loss andexperience with the grief
itself.
Someone like you or even maybenot a sibling specific loss but
somebody that knows loss andgrief in their soul I think
would have been a lot better.
I think my therapist was just,and I love her, don't get me
wrong, I'm not gonna stop seeingher, She was just, it was just
(47:17):
very textbook.
Just very textbook.
Dr. Dean (47:22):
Yeah, to be fair, and I'm, this is why I harp on
things like this in thenewsletter is there is a
specific level of training.
to be able to work with griefand loss that most therapists
and psychologists and counselorsdo not have training in.
For many of our programs, thedeath and dying class, there's
(47:44):
maybe one, or there's a griefcounseling class, but for the
most part, and this is ageneralization, but most
programs, that's an optionaltraining.
I like an elective.
so that's why I harp on makingsure you're asking the right
questions when you're lookingfor a grief therapist or grief
counselor.
And those are two differentthings too, but, so that you're
(48:06):
getting what you need and it'sokay to fire a therapist.
I, we don't usually take thatpersonally.
if we do our problem, not yours.
so making sure you find thatperson.
And the reason I ask you aboutthat is I'm working to try to
create some training aroundgrief specific to sibling loss
for therapists.
There are a lot of trainingprograms out there to help
(48:27):
people become a better griefinformed or grief, humble,
therapist..
So I'm not trying to dish onanyone specifically, I just in
general wanted to ask aboutthat.
Kate Chertik (48:38):
yeah, and I don't think every therapist is grief
specific.
Like you said, it's specificclasses, it's special classes,
the same way that it would belike a drug and alcohol
counselor.
and so my therapist was notspecific for grief, but at the
time I wasn't even capable oflooking for one.
I was just like, I need you,
Dr. Dean (48:58):
Mm
Kate Chertik (48:59):
please help me.
So I threw a lot
Dr. Dean (49:01):
yeah.
So would you like to share someof your favorite memories about
Larry?
Kate Chertik (49:07):
Yeah, one of them was definitely the Penn State
one.
He was just such a goofball.
I was just thinking about onelast night because my dad and I
are going to the Italianfestival in Philadelphia next
weekend.
And right before, the Octoberbefore he passed away, we had
gone out of town with mydaughter up to Reystown.
And we went to the Bedford FallFestival, I want to say.
(49:30):
My dad and my daughter went offto go to a food truck and we
lost them.
And so me and Larry are walkingaround, it's packed.
There's like thousands of peopleand we're like, okay, we know
they're getting food, but whatare they getting?
And at one point Larry and Ijust looked at each other and we
were like hot sausage at theexact same time.
And we walk right over to thehot sausage booth.
(49:51):
And that's where my dad waslike, that's it.
It was just, you had to be there
Dr. Dean (49:56):
You both knew him
Kate Chertik (49:57):
like know my dad.
Yeah, we both knew him well.
We knew each other well to evenknow what to think about where
to find him in this group ofthousands of people.
It was hilarious.
We were just cracking up and wewere like, we've looked at all
these food stands.
Of course, you're at the hotsausage stand.
I remember the one time he wasalways, I have a pit bull and he
actually have a pit bull becauseLarry loved pit bulls.
(50:19):
And, he used to help me out withher a lot and she had gone
through a heat and Larry didn'teven know what a heat was.
And, so, this is gonna sound soweird, her nipples hardened, her
nipples protruded.
So I remember I was at work oneday and Larry called me and he's
Kate, he's we need to get Mazeto AVETS right now.
And I was like, what is wrong?
I was like, I've been gone fortwo hours.
(50:40):
And he was like, she's got thesepimples all over her stomach.
He was like, they're super red.
I don't even know what they are.
And I said, pimples.
I said, send me a picture,Larry.
I'm not going to Avets forpimples.
And he sends me a picture of hernipples.
And I was like, Larry, they'renipples.
And he was like, what do youmean they're nipples?
Dogs don't have nipples.
I said, how do you think theyfeed puppies, Larry?
(51:03):
He genuinely was very confusedabout what was going on.
He called me in a panic at workand was ready to go drop like
thousands of dollars at Avets.
Just for them to say, Hey, she'sin heat.
And those are her nipples incase she gets pregnant and has a
litter.
Oh my gosh.
I love him.
He's so goofy.
(51:24):
So smart, but blonde at the sametime, like ditzy at the same
time.
Dr. Dean (51:29):
That's hilarious.
Kate Chertik (51:31):
Yeah, it was ridiculous.
I felt he's not here now so Ican embarrass him.
So I had to like, let the worldknow that story existed and that
he thought those were pimple, orthat he thought those were,
yeah, a problem.
He had no idea what they were.
He's like, why is there so many?
I was like, why is there somany?
Dr. Dean (51:45):
Well, you also saved him from embarrassment of taking
the dog to the vet.
So I'm glad that you also lookedout for him.
You could have been like, Idon't know, take
Kate Chertik (51:53):
have just let him.
Oh, that's awesome.
Dr. Dean (52:02):
All right.
is there anything else you wantto say about scooters or scooter
safety in general?
Kate Chertik (52:08):
Just don't ride them.
That's my opinion.
Dr. Dean (52:11):
That works.
Kate Chertik (52:11):
If they come back and you might see me on the news
throwing them into our rivers, Ihave a whole team of Larry's
friends ready to go.
We are just gonna literally getrid of all of them.
Dr. Dean (52:22):
I will sign up for that.
All right.
thanks for talking today.
Kate Chertik (52:27):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me on.
Dr. Dean (52:30):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
(52:51):
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Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode, I spoke withKate about losing her brother,
Larry, in a tragic, unexpectedaccident involving a scooter and
a Pittsburgh pothole.
We talk about how much sheadmired her brother and the
devastation that she has feltsince losing her brother and
what that has meant for heridentity.
(00:54):
Take a listen.
Thanks for coming on today.
How did you want to introduceyourself to the audience?
Kate Chertik (01:09):
My name is Katelyn Chertik.
I found out about this groupafter my brother Larry passed
away last year.
I'm, 32 born and raised inPittsburgh.
I love this city.
I would say a little bit aboutwho I am, but I feel like I lost
who I was.
I feel like I'm currentlyrebuilding who I am, if that
makes sense.
So honestly, I have no idea howto introduce myself anymore.
Dr. Dean (01:31):
Yeah, I think a valid point is that your identity was
very much wrapped up in beingLarry's sister for a long time.
Kate Chertik (01:38):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (01:40):
Is he older or younger?
Kate Chertik (01:42):
Older.
He was older by four years, butwe were so close and so similar
that honestly, I just toldpeople we were twins,
Dr. Dean (01:52):
So four years difference but he was always
there for you, until he,unfortunately, wasn't.
Kate Chertik (01:58):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (02:00):
Before we talk about losing him, though, I was
curious what you want people toknow about him.
Kate Chertik (02:05):
There's so many things to know.
Larry was so much larger thanlife, so much fun and brought
happiness to so many people.
He was one of those infectioussouls where as soon as you met
him, you loved him.
Friends with everybody.
He walked in a room and he ownedit.
And that's probably why he wasalways great at sales and why he
(02:25):
worked in sales.
But now he was just a phenomenalperson, a phenomenal brother,
phenomenal son, uncle to mydaughter.
It's hard because I wish I couldjust talk about him all day, but
I've gotten so used to over thelast almost 15 months, keeping
quiet.
And I'm sure, with your owngrief that it's like, people
don't really want to hear aboutit.
It just makes them feel awkward.
(02:47):
even still, if I bring them upin conversation, cause I catch
myself still talking about him,like he's here.
people just shy away or theychange the subject and their
discomfort is just written allover their face.
And so I just changed the topic.
Dr. Dean (03:02):
The good news is, I would like to hear more about
him, so you don't have to feelthat way either in this
conversation or if we talkagain, you can reach out, Tell
me all about Larry.
Kate Chertik (03:12):
Yeah.
He was just funny, goofy, sosmart.
of the party, as I said, when hewas in Penn State and his
fraternity, he was the socialchair and he was so good at it
that he actually got theirfraternity shut down.
was, yes, it was like a monthbefore they all graduated and it
was a alumni weekend and theysaid no parties.
(03:34):
And so Larry invited Wiz Khalifaup and Wiz Khalifa performed in
the frat house that weekend.
Dr. Dean (03:43):
not just a party, but also a celebrity party.
Kate Chertik (03:47):
Yes.
Yes.
He, Wiz Khalifa's, tour manageractually was in the same
fraternity with Larry.
So they were good friends.
But yeah, that just goes to showa little bit how Larry is.
Dr. Dean (04:00):
That's fun.
That sounds like a good memory.
Did you, were you up there forthat or?
Kate Chertik (04:05):
No.
So when he was up at Penn State,his freshman year was my
freshman year of high school.
So I did get to go up and travelwith my dad and get to see him.
Dr. Dean (04:14):
You mentioned that you were pretty close, that you
introduced him as your twin.
How was your your relationship?
How would you describe that?
Kate Chertik (04:23):
Very close.
and it's almost sad because Irealized that more so
retrospectively after he passed.
it's one of those things thatyou don't realize how, deeply
intertwined you are withsomebody until they're gone.
And I've even had like Aunts andUncles come back and they're
like, yeah, your bond isspecial.
I just feel like we dealt with alot when we were younger,
surrounding my parents divorce.
(04:44):
So we've just always been close.
You can ask anybody that wasclose with me.
If you knew me, you knew Larry,whether that was me talking
about him, whether that was myfriends hanging out with him.
and I found out through hisfriends afterwards that it was
very much the same for him.
I had people messaging me afterthey found out on Facebook and
they're like, Larry, literallynever shut the fuck up about you
(05:06):
and your daughter.
He was so proud of you, so proudof your daughter.
Yeah, that was my best friend.
genuinely, so much of me is him.
My laugh, the way I talk, I evenwent to college for the same
thing that he did, because Ijust wanted to follow in his
footsteps.
Dr. Dean (05:21):
What was that?
Kate Chertik (05:22):
Marketing.
And I don't even use it.
I'm in finance, but it was justlike, it was just like he had a
marketing company.
And the goal was for me to gofor digital marketing and work
for him.
And.
Both of us work together andcome up with these different
business ideas and retire ourparents, take care of them.
Dr. Dean (05:42):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (05:43):
I'm pretty sure I'm even a tomboy because of
him.
I, Growing up with brothers,especially, but yeah, so much of
who I am was wrapped up in whoLarry was.
Dr. Dean (05:53):
Yeah.
Do you have other siblings?
Kate Chertik (05:55):
I have a younger, a younger brother.
He's technically my half brotheronce my mom remarried with my
stepdad.
Unfortunately, we're not close.
and he wasn't necessarily closeeither with Larry.
He after college, moved toChicago, kept to himself.
since the funeral, I've onlytalked to him twice, and that
was Thanksgiving and Christmas.
So it's been hard.
(06:15):
But, I hate to say this becausesome people genuinely have now
become the only sibling, but itvery much feels like I'm the
only sibling left.
And I'm sure my little brotherdoes feel that in a sense too,
but we didn't have the magicalmoment that some people might've
hoped for this brought ustogether and granted he's still
(06:35):
pretty young.
I'm pretty young, 32, so itcould still happen, but
unfortunately I will never havethat bond with Michael the way I
did with Larry.
Dr. Dean (06:45):
hmm, That makes sense because you grew up in the same
house with the same parents andthen, like you said, the divorce
brought you closer, whereas youdidn't have that with Michael,
Kate Chertik (06:56):
Yes.
Yeah.
and we were just, Larry and Iwere raised the same way, but
like Michael was raised a littlebit differently because of my
stepdad and not in a bad way,but Larry and I went through the
trenches.
Even on our 15th birthdays, mymom took both of us to go get
our worker's permit and we bothhad a job by 15, whereas my
little brother, she was a littlebit more laxed with, and so we
(07:19):
were raised more similarly thanMichael was to us.
Dr. Dean (07:23):
So did your relationship change at all when
you became adults?
Kate Chertik (07:27):
Me and Larry?
Dr. Dean (07:29):
yep.
Kate Chertik (07:30):
Yes, definitely closer.
There was actually a pointbefore I bought this house three
years ago that Larry and I livedtogether.
So it was difficult.
When he graduated high school in2006, he went off to state
college.
So he was middle of the state.
He wasn't necessarily around asmuch as I would have liked him
to.
And after college, Larry left.
(07:51):
Larry went down to Disney Worldto do an internship.
He lived in Kissimmee for aboutfour years, and then he traveled
for a living for two and a half.
So he really just moved back toPittsburgh in 2017.
And.
I was definitely proud of him.
I was proud of him for gettingout of Pittsburgh for getting
(08:11):
out of the state and doing whathe loved.
He worked for Deloitte and hewas a secret shopper for United
Airways.
So he had to audit theirflights.
So he got to travel for free.
he visited 23 countries, whichis awesome.
He's instilled a love oftraveling in me as well.
but I was ecstatic when hefinally moved back in 2017,
'cause I felt like I just got mybrother back.
Dr. Dean (08:35):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (08:37):
Yeah, but I was proud of him.
When I made the comment earlierif you knew me you knew larry
It's because I was braggingabout what he was doing and how
proud I was of him
Dr. Dean (08:46):
Yeah, So how long ago did Larry die?
Kate Chertik (08:50):
This month will be 15 months.
He passed away February 20th oflast year.
President's Day.
Dr. Dean (08:57):
Of 2023.
Kate Chertik (08:59):
Yes.
2023.
Dr. Dean (09:02):
What are you comfortable sharing about losing
Larry?
Kate Chertik (09:06):
About his accident?
Dr. Dean (09:08):
yea
Kate Chertik (09:09):
It's one of those things that is, it's so silly.
And at this point it's becomepublicized.
So it's not like people don'tknow it's been on the news.
He was riding one of thoseelectric scooters downtown.
He lived in the North shore andhe was coming back over from
where the stadiums are, wherethose restaurants are in the
North shore.
And.
Dr. Dean (09:27):
hmm.
Mm
Kate Chertik (09:28):
From what we've learned, he was going through an
underpass and a car was comingup behind him.
So he tried to veer the scooterover closer to the sidewalk and
he hit a pothole.
When he hit the pothole, thehandlebars hit him right in the
spleen and he flew over thehandlebars and smacked his head
on the ground.
And the police said, accordingto the video, he sat on the
(09:49):
sidewalk trying to collecthimself, probably as a guy
trying to shake it off.
And he walked home.
and they found him collapsed inhis apartment hallway's floor,
Dr. Dean (10:01):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (10:01):
we don't know how long he was there, but what
happened was the handlebarsruptured his spleen, so he
started bleeding internally, andthe internal bleeding caused
cardiac arrest.
I think it was 22 minutes forthe paramedics to get there
between when security called,and when they finally got there,
he was in cardiac arrest.
They were able to bring him backand then on the way to Allegheny
(10:25):
general, he had two more cardiacarrests, which is a very short
span.
He was only two or three blocksaway from the hospital and they
performed surgery.
They stopped the bleeding of thespleen.
He had two more cardiac arrestswhile in surgery.
Once they got him closed up, hewas still bleeding somewhere is
(10:45):
what we were told.
So they opened him back up asecond time and they weren't
able to find where that bleedingwas coming from.
So I remember waking up at 2 30in the morning to go to the
bathroom and I had 25 missedcalls from my dad and I was
really panicked.
I thought it was something wrongwith my dad.
It never occurred to me that itwas Larry.
(11:06):
And, he was like, Katie.
You need to get to Alleghenygeneral and I said what's going
on and he said it's Larry and Isaid That's vague.
What's going on?
And he said he's dying And so Irushed I guess he couldn't get a
hold of my mom either So thehospital was sending police to
her house to wake her up.
Dr. Dean (11:25):
Mm hmm.
Kate Chertik (11:26):
I got dressed I flew to my mom's house her and
my stepdad, we all drove down toAllegheny General.
And by the time we got there,the doctor sat with us in the
waiting room and he was like,There's nothing we can do.
Basically we've just beenkeeping him alive because we
knew you guys were on the way.
And we wanted to make sure thatyou could say goodbye.
(11:46):
So we went in, obviously didn'tlook great.
bleeding internally, twosurgeries, five cardiac arrests.
And my mom was very, she'salways very stoic, very rash and
they gave us five minutes and wewere like, all right, you can
stop the medication, basicallykeeping him alive.
It's just all surreal.
Dr. Dean (12:06):
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (12:09):
Yeah.
It's one of those things likemy, even my dad was like, are
you sure you want to see him?
And I'm thinking like,absolutely.
what do you mean?
And I remember grabbing his handand he flinched.
You'd think I've watched enoughmedical shows to know that's
just the body.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
The body's natural reaction.
And, yeah, there was nothingmore they could do.
And we believe genuinely that hewas probably gone before he even
(12:32):
got to the hospital.
Being in cardiac arrest likethat, they're lucky they were
even able to bring him back.
'Cause like I said, we have noidea how long he was collapsed
in the hallway.
It was 22 minutes before theambulance even got there.
Dr. Dean (12:45):
he'd already left the scene of where he was injured
too, right?
So
Kate Chertik (12:50):
yes, yeah.
They found him
Dr. Dean (12:51):
that time.
Kate Chertik (12:53):
Yeah, and honestly, I'm fortunate that he
collapsed where he did because Icouldn't imagine if he had made
it into his apartment complexand collapsed, how long would it
have been before someone foundhim?
Dr. Dean (13:06):
Yeah, how did they make the connection that he was
on the scooter?
Kate Chertik (13:10):
So when the police got there about the same time as
the ambulance, the spin scooterapp was still open on his phone.
He hadn't even ended the ridesyet.
he wasn't, obviously wasn'tthinking clearly to end the
ride.
Spin actually charged him forthe ride, when it finally was
stopped.
But that's how they made theconnection was that it was open
on his app and they were able tosee the last ride he had
(13:32):
requested, paid for, whatever.
Dr. Dean (13:34):
so you didn't have a lot of time to process that It
was rather sudden.
Do you feel like you were ableto say goodbye in those last few
minutes that you had?
Kate Chertik (13:47):
this is one of those questions.
I don't even remember sayinggoodbye.
I just remember telling him Ilove him.
And asking him to wake up.
and even after they stopped themedication, your heart's still
going for a little bit.
You're still breathing.
So it was
Dr. Dean (14:04):
mmm hmm.
Kate Chertik (14:06):
is he really dead?
Can he wake up?
You know what I mean?
That type of thing.
just that little bit of hope.
But no, I don't remember sayingbye.
Yeah.
I think it was, again, it wasjust so fast.
There was only probably 45minutes between getting the
(14:27):
phone call.
And getting to the hospital andmy dad was just like, he's
dying.
So I do remember driving to thehospital, just repetitively
saying please wake up, pleasewake up.
Yeah, it was a tough situation.
(14:48):
It happened what in a matter ofan hour and a half, Between that
accident and when we think hewas gone, it was only an hour
and a half.
It was just so fast, all of it
Dr. Dean (14:57):
hmm.
For our listeners, a lot of themwill know that I'm also from
Pittsburgh, Living here, I'mstruck by when you're saying
that.
I'll be fully honest, when yousaid the pothole, it's such a
Pittsburgh thing to have thisgut reaction about potholes,
right?
And I felt myself being like,oh, There's this joke that
always about potholes here, andI'm
Kate Chertik (15:19):
That it's a survival skill to learn where
the potholes are in Pittsburgh.
Dr. Dean (15:25):
yes, and that really feels different now that you've
described that.
Kate Chertik (15:31):
Well, and having seen those jokes, We've been
hearing those jokes for yearsand then to actually have my
brother pass away because of astupid pothole,
Dr. Dean (15:42):
Mm hmm.
Which I think you actually saidwhen you contacted me.
He died because of a stupidpothole.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (15:48):
Yes.
So yeah, it just feels verytrivial.
It's just one of those thingslike, what?
What?
nobody that got on thosescooters, I didn't just because
I'm a bit like, no, I'm too muchof a grandma
Dr. Dean (16:02):
ahmm.
Kate Chertik (16:03):
But nobody ever thinks that they're going to hit
a pothole and die because of it.
Yes.
It was very frustrating.
Dr. Dean (16:13):
Yeah.
What was it like for you also tonavigate, you knew you were
going to the hospital and thathe was dying.
It sounds like you were hopefulthat he would wake up.
So in those early few days ofmourning, what was that like?
Kate Chertik (16:26):
I feel like I blacked out, to be honest with
you.
It was, again, my mom is verystoic and rash and so she just
handled everything.
She jumped into everything asfar as cleaning out his
apartment, reaching out his tohis job, handling everything
while my dad and I like, barelygot off the couch.
It was devastating.
(16:49):
I mean, was unreal.
It feels like I was seeingmyself from the outside, like it
doesn't even feel like I was inmy body.
I couldn't process it.
And even to this day, it's verysimilar.
obviously we all deal withdeath, right?
Our grandparents pass away,parents pass away.
(17:10):
Grief is everywhere in our life,but this loss for me, rearranged
the world.
Dr. Dean (17:16):
mmhmm well how couldn't it your whole world had
him in it.
Kate Chertik (17:20):
yes.
But even like I said, even withgrandparents before that, and
you you're expecting thatthey're older, but yeah, this
was substantial.
Dr. Dean (17:28):
Mm-Hmm.
Kate Chertik (17:29):
I felt like a zombie, just angry.
I think the anger was thebiggest emotion that I felt
those first few days, like scaryanger.
And for the first few months, I,there was points where I was
even considering committingmyself.
I genuinely thought that therewas no way I was going to get
through it.
Dr. Dean (17:53):
I wonder if you can verbalize what you were angry
about.
Mm-Hmm.
Kate Chertik (18:02):
Everything, angry at God, angry at the universe,
angry at the potholes, angry atthe scooter company.
Anger at my brother and I knowthat sucks to say because
they're not they're gone.
They're not here, but I was soangry at him Especially because
it wasn't his first accident onone of those scooters He had
(18:24):
called me before he fell in theNorth Shore.
Maybe he like I don't know if heHit a curb or hit a pothole
previously.
But he called me with a blackeye the one night.
And so I was just mad.
He even got back on it.
I was upset with him.
I was upset that it was my Ithink, and I think we all go
(18:45):
through this.
We're like, why my family?
Why my brother?
Why my sister?
and I still battle that anger.
That anger, I don't know if it'sever gonna go away.
Dr. Dean (18:55):
right?
Let's normalize this anger for asecond because I think people
are afraid to say Sometimes I'mangry at the person that died,
but it's a normal response andI'm not promoting the five
stages of grief because I'vetalked about it before that's
not actually a great grieftheory, but I do think anger as
(19:16):
an emotion does make sense ingrief and something that we
should talk about.
I get angry at my own brothertoo because he died from a heart
attack in his sleep, but he wasputting off going to a doctor
until certain events happened.
and yeah, I still get angry athim.
Like, why didn't you just go?
Kate Chertik (19:35):
Well, and you make a good point because I was very
angry that Larry sat on thesidewalk and didn't call 911.
I don't know if it's true ornot.
I was told that this car sawLarry fall the car that he had
tried to avoid.
They saw the whole accident andthey asked him like, are you
okay?
Do you need us to call nine oneone?
(19:57):
And how I made the comment aboutguys will be guys that he just
sat there and shook it off.
And I wonder had he called nineone one right then and there,
instead of trying to walk home,would he still be here?
yeah, I do.
And you're right, there is shamein saying that.
Nobody wants to say, I'm mad atmy brother for dying, but I am.
Dr. Dean (20:15):
hmm.
Kate Chertik (20:17):
And I feel it all the time, even with stuff now.
Like, My parents will starttalking to me, about what I'm
supposed to do when they pass.
And I'm like, damn you, Larry.
Like, if you were here, Ishouldn't have to be going
through this by myself.
Dr. Dean (20:34):
Yeah.
Yes.
Kate Chertik (20:36):
think it's, I think it should be normalized.
It's just It's not even directlyat him.
I feel like it's just thesituation.
Dr. Dean (20:44):
Yeah, for sure.
I think, as siblings too, we aresupposed to be there together to
navigate losing our parents.
That's the natural order ofthings.
life and death, right?
And so I think for sure thatfeels lonely.
I just talked to Randye aboutthis a couple episodes ago in
(21:05):
which she's 45 years out and shetalked about how hard that was
to do.
Kate Chertik (21:10):
I think I might have actually seen her quote on
your Instagram page.
It said, I'm sitting herethinking about it, like I have
to do this two more times bymyself.
And it's, how do you not getangry at them for it?
it's not their fault.
Larry didn't choose this, butyeah, it goes with the emotions.
Dr. Dean (21:34):
Yeah.
So beyond the anger, I'mguessing you had other
experiences and it sounds likeyou're navigating too, all of
the family dynamics.
with the different familieswithout him.
Kate Chertik (21:48):
Trying to.
I genuinely feel like I'mwinging it at this point.
I don't know if it's, I, I'm ayear, I'm a, I know I hit the
one year mark, but I've alwaysbeen told that one to two year
mark is brutal, way worse thanthe first year.
And I'm in the middle of that.
I get that.
I understand now.
Dr. Dean (22:07):
I think it's interesting that timeline is
different for everyone.
And I'm a little over four yearsout, right?
So I'm still early in grief andpeople like to tell us that it
gets easier over time.
And I don't think that's true.
I think in some ways, because weget farther from the person,
that it gets harder.
in some ways you just acclimateto it, which that's not easier,
(22:28):
that's just different.
Kate Chertik (22:30):
yeah.
And I feel like that's just, wedon't have any other choice.
So it's, I'm going into abegrudgingly, like I'm not happy
about having to accept thisreality.
I'd give any, even today I'dgive anything to change it.
Dr. Dean (22:46):
You and I talked just before we started recording,
about the news coverage.
I wonder what you want to, oryou don't have to, what you want
to say about that.
Kate Chertik (22:58):
That's been tough.
It became publicized a lot morethan I thought it would.
It was a few months and I'lltell you a little bit about how
that even came about.
It was two months after Larryhad passed away.
I was at dinner with my dad andI saw on the news that the pilot
program for the scooters wasalmost up and the city council
was in talks of extending it orrenewing it.
(23:21):
And I, of course, still in myanger phase.
Just decided to reach out tocity council in general and say,
hi, my name is Katelyn.
This is what happened.
this is why I believe youshouldn't bring the scooters
back.
And from there, a city councilwoman had reached out to me and
then it became Katelyn, do youmind speaking to this
journalist?
(23:41):
So then this journalist reachedout to me and then once the news
got a hold of the journalist'sarticle.
The news reached out to me andsaid, can we interview you?
And, after that, a lawyer did.
A lawyer reached out and said,Hey, I just want you to know I'm
currently representing peoplethat have also been in scooter
related accidents.
(24:01):
Can we get together and talkabout a possible lawsuit?
And at this point it wasn'tsupposed to go beyond just me
giving my opinion and saying,please don't renew these
scooters.
This is why.
and I got really deeply involvedin this and just found out some
things about the scooter companyand how they hadn't been
reporting accidents correctlyand accurately.
(24:24):
They hadn't, the news hadn'teven heard about Larry's death
and it says.
on Larry's death certificatesplenic rupture caused by a
motorized scooter.
So there really was no denyingit.
The ME put it right on hisreport that's how the splenic
rupture happened was from thescooter fall.
Dr. Dean (24:41):
Mm.
Kate Chertik (24:42):
And so that became hard, especially with it being
publicized.
I accidentally made the mistakeof reading all the stupid
comments on social media Andthings like oh, he was drunk and
he deserved it and he's just oneperson What does it matter if he
died?
It's still a mode oftransportation all kinds of
(25:03):
crazy things and So finally theythe scooters ended up going away
But I think they are nowbringing them back and my family
is in the middle of a lawsuitwith Spin, Segway, and the city
of Pittsburgh, and they'retrying to shut us up.
Larry's case was the worst casethere's.
(25:25):
Hundreds of them.
Larry's case was the onlyfatality.
So our lawyer, I should say, wastrying to use him to spearhead
the whole lawsuit.
And the company has come backand said, you can't go after the
city.
You can't go after Segway.
You can't go after Spin.
Because they got bought out by aparent company who filed
bankruptcy.
(25:46):
Which is convenient.
And, so it's been frustrating.
It really has because even justyesterday they asked us, because
they're talking settlement.
They just want us out of theway.
Basically.
They just want us out of the wayso that they can continue with
their plan of paying out theother claimants.
And, so even just yesterday wehad to sit down and talk about
(26:07):
putting a dollar figure onLarry's life.
and, my parents are obviouslyvery upset about that.
So I tried to tell him, I said,it's not necessarily.
Okay.
Putting a dollar figure onLarry's life will never be able
to do that.
That's not possible, but it'sputting a dollar figure on
holding these companiesaccountable.
I just think that the cityitself with the infrastructure
(26:29):
failed us by letting us evenhave them on the roads and these
companies.
if you're telling me that I canbe wearing an Apple watch and I
fall and it can detect a falland prompt me to call 911.
Why are these scooters notequipped with this kind of
technology?
Why isn't there better shockabsorbers?
So it was just a lot ofpetitions, a lot of reaching out
(26:52):
to city council.
Trying to get them out of here,trying to keep them off the
roads and trying to keep thesecompanies.
accountable.
Dr. Dean (27:00):
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (27:02):
and I don't know, I don't know if you watched my
news article, I said, we're adrinking city and we're a
pothole city.
It's
Dr. Dean (27:09):
I actually, yeah, I didn't see it, but I did read
the article.
I,
Kate Chertik (27:13):
that's pretty accurate.
Living in Pittsburgh, we're adrinking city and everywhere you
go, there's potholes all overthe road.
Dr. Dean (27:18):
Sports, drinks, potholes.
Yeah.
combination.
You were able to say that thisis what the city is about.
You want change, it sounds like,so nobody else gets injured or
killed.
Kate Chertik (27:32):
Correct.
Larry's accident involving apothole wasn't the only one.
Another girl that was includedin the lawsuit was in town for I
believe a Kenny Chesney concertAnd she was on her way to the
bar and she hit a pothole andshe fell on the scooter and
lacerated her liver
Dr. Dean (27:50):
Oh, wow.
Kate Chertik (27:52):
So when she I guess she was from out of town.
She was from Indiana and whenshe got back to Indiana She had
to have emergency surgery torepair her lacerated liver.
So Yeah, I don't mind thescooters being around.
I just think the city if they'regonna have them needs to be You
wiser about which roads they'rebeing used on and fix the
(28:12):
potholes.
Dr. Dean (28:13):
Like even those bike lanes, I would think they'd have
to pay attention to that too.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (28:19):
Our lawyer, before he had even, before Larry's
accident, had sent a letter inNovember to the city council and
said, I have a client.
She hit a pothole and laceratedher liver.
These are where are the, all thepotholes are in the North shore.
You need to fix them.
And that was in November.
The city never responded andLarry's accident was in
(28:41):
February.
And so that's another thing.
It's if they had just takenaccountability and fixed them,
would he still be here?
We'll never know.
Dr. Dean (28:54):
So this what if game, as I've called it in the past, I
don't have a better name forthat.
I wonder how much that keeps youfrom processing your grief if at
all.
Kate Chertik (29:08):
A lot.
I think I'll be honest with you.
I think a lot and I think it'sstopped me from even trying to
move forward.
I've been struggling a lotlately with just grieving my old
life, the old me.
What life used to look like andI know it and it stinks because
(29:30):
you're self aware But you justdon't know where to go.
Dr. Dean (29:34):
Yeah.
Do you want to say more aboutwhat you mean by that?
Kate Chertik (29:39):
Yeah so especially the grieving who I used to be I
mean I just used to be carefreeand fun and very similar to
Larry the life of the party likeand now I Isolate now.
I just don't even want to dealwith people.
I don't want to deal withanything And I know that's a bit
of depression, but a lot of itis the grief You And I know it's
(30:04):
stopping me from moving forward.
I just have a lot ofanticipatory grief about
everything.
Like I've even said to friends,like I'm afraid to even have
friendships or relationshipsbecause I'm afraid to get close
to somebody and lose them again.
Dr. Dean (30:18):
Right.
Kate Chertik (30:19):
it's really kept me.
And I've even been afraid to geta new job, right?
Like I'm afraid to change fromthe last version of me that
Larry knew, if that makes sense.
Dr. Dean (30:29):
Mm hmm.
No, absolutely.
I was just thinking about that.
Kate Chertik (30:33):
Yeah, you just want to hang on to every aspect
of life that you had before theypassed away.
Dr. Dean (30:40):
It's almost like we want to preserve who they knew
because that part of us was soimportant to them, or we hope
that it was.
And unfortunately, there's noway to be that person again.
Kate Chertik (30:54):
Correct, and the acceptance has been hard Like I
will literally sit there andlook in the mirror and I'm like
you have to accept this you haveto accept it You're no longer
that Kate.
That's no longer your life andIt's time to create something
new, but it's hard when you knowthey're not going to be there.
Dr. Dean (31:13):
So trying to navigate now how you move forward with
your grief and with the love forLarry.
I wonder what that looks likefor you?
Kate Chertik (31:23):
Baby steps.
I like, I've started this griefgroup.
and a little bit of that wasselfish.
A little bit of that was mewanting to be around people that
can relate.
because I've especially found ithard to relate to anybody these
days and trying to find a newjob.
Trying to do things to honorLarry, like even this is going
(31:45):
to sound so stupid nationalsibling day, which was April
10th.
Dr. Dean (31:50):
Yes.
Kate Chertik (31:51):
I was like, what can I do to honor Larry?
So I went and joined the gymbecause that's something that he
would do, but
Dr. Dean (31:58):
I don't think that sounds stupid.
Kate Chertik (32:01):
I've
Dr. Dean (32:01):
sounds like that is part of what we call the
continuing bond of having thatrelationship with him and he'd
want you to join the gym or thatwas something that reminded you
or connected you with him.
So I absolutely don't thinkthat's stupid.
Kate Chertik (32:13):
Oh, I haven't even gone.
It's been a month.
Dr. Dean (32:17):
it's only been a month
Kate Chertik (32:18):
and it just made me feel better that day to do
something that.
Dr. Dean (32:22):
Mm
Kate Chertik (32:22):
he would have been proud of me for doing.
That's how I, yeah, like Ican't, it's not going to be
these big leaps and boundstrying to get back to normalcy
or trying to get back to life.
just little things.
I'll be honest with you.
(32:42):
I don't know.
I have no idea how I'm supposedto move forward.
Dr. Dean (32:47):
Yeah, it's hard because I think also this idea
of acceptance.
be clear, what you mean by that,I think, and correct me if I'm
wrong, acceptance is not thesame as approval.
I like to remind people of thata lot in my professional work.
but it doesn't mean that it's aneasy process to accept the facts
(33:09):
of our lives that your siblingisn't here, right?
It's still a difficult thing tomove forward with.
Kate Chertik (33:15):
It's like a roller coaster.
I could wake up in the morningfeeling great, like I'm ready to
kick today's ass, and then anhour later I can be sobbing.
Dr. Dean (33:24):
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
Kate Chertik (33:26):
In the morning I can say, okay, Kate, like this
is life now.
What are you going to do to moveforward?
But I can see something thatreminds me of Larry or hear a
song or whatever it is, and I'mright back to where I was 15
months ago.
It's hard.
Those moments are I, and again,even that it's like acceptance
(33:48):
of the fact that I can't evencontrol those moments.
I have to just.
Be in them and get through themtype of Yeah, I feel like it's
gonna be a lifelong processThat's what stinks about the
grief thing is that there is nonobody can definitively say when
you're gonna feel better Nobodycan definitively say when the
anger is gonna stop or when theacceptance is gonna be at a
(34:11):
hundred percent
Dr. Dean (34:16):
That is true.
because grief last, right?
As long as they were supposed tobe here in your life.
and longer, for the rest of yourlife.
What is it like now to be aroundyour parents or your friends?
You said that you're afraid toget hurt and lose new people,
but I wonder what it's like foryou to be around people that are
already in your life.
Kate Chertik (34:37):
To be honest with you.
I feel like grief has reallyshown me You A lot about people.
I feel like I had a lot offriendships fade away and In the
moment, I just didn't care aboutrestoring those friendships.
Grief has to be a bit selfish.
I mean I had to focus on gettingmyself through the day for my
(34:59):
daughter's sake let alone tryingto continue friendships or check
in on friendships but I feltlike a lot of people were just
avoiding me too and I don'tblame them if I could have
avoided me during that period Iabsolutely would have
Dr. Dean (35:13):
That's a valid assessment of self.
Yeah, Because we get upset thatpeople avoid us in grief, and
possibly we would if we could.
Kate Chertik (35:24):
Yeah.
I totally understand.
It hurts.
It stings.
but I wouldn't even, I'vemaintained a couple of those
close friendships.
It is so hard because life hasmoved on for everybody else.
And I just feel very stuck.
even I could be in the middle ofa party or a concert and I will
be in my head thinking abouthim.
(35:44):
So it is, it's difficult.
People will be afraid to bringhim up.
People will be afraid to talkabout him.
They're like, Oh, I don't wantyou to think about him.
There's not a moment of our daywhere we're not thinking about
the person that we lost,especially someone that we were
that close with.
I would still say even at 15months out, 75 percent of my day
(36:05):
is still thinking about Larry.
So it's been hard to maintainfriendships.
Dr. Dean (36:10):
One, I wonder too, because earlier you mentioned
how uncomfortable people becomeand how quiet you've become
around that.
And I think sometimes peopledon't know how to handle the
presence of our sibling in ourconversations, right?
And so they shy away from it,which reinforces this idea that
(36:31):
you're still thinking about himand it still hurts, but it
doesn't feel okay to talk abouthim or whomever you've lost.
Kate Chertik (36:37):
well, and that just makes it more isolating for
us.
I felt like I've done the rightthing as far as reaching out,
getting out of the house, notsitting in my bedroom sulking
all day.
But then once I'm out, I'm like,Oh, this is still pretty
terrible.
yeah.
And I just, I've had a very lowtolerance for things, or I'll
(36:58):
even it's in its little things.
I can hear my friend talkingabout.
How the annoying they thinktheir sister or their brother is
and things like that stilltrigger me I'm like you really
need to just watch and think andget better about those kinds of
things, but they don't know whatwe're going through they don't
understand what I'm even sayingto them.
It's just so they're annoyingsibling They can't even fathom
(37:22):
the pain or what it's like tolose them.
Dr. Dean (37:25):
It's true, right?
We can envy other people'ssibling relationships.
I wonder how you've handledthat.
Do you say something to thefriends?
Kate Chertik (37:33):
I try not to it's really not my place.
because then it just makes itsound like I'm having a pity
party, which I'm not.
I'm just trying to say Hey, youneed to enjoy that bond while
it's still there.
Hey, you need to appreciate thatsibling a little bit more than
you currently are.
I guess they're annoying, butreally think about how
substantial that siblingrelationship is.
Dr. Dean (37:54):
Mm hmm.
I've done the same thing, Ithink, from time to time with
people.
It's okay, I'll just not sayanything, or sometimes I will be
like, Listen, I wish I couldargue with my brother right now.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (38:05):
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
I wish I could.
Somebody was just complaining tome that they had to go see their
brother on Sunday and it wasinconvenient.
I was like, you have no idea howmuch you're going to miss that
one day.
Dr. Dean (38:17):
exactly.
So I know you mentioned thegroup earlier.
Do you want to say more aboutwhat you're doing there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kate Chertik (38:26):
Yeah, it's been a little bit tough.
my own personal therapist hastold me that these groups are
difficult to build and difficultto keep going because people
struggle with talking abouttheir feelings, which I
understand.
So it just came to fruition.
Just as I said, I myself neededthe resource.
It was not available when Ifirst, when the accident first
(38:47):
happened.
If I did find a group, it was,you have to be a year out from
your sibling loss before we'lleven let you join.
And the online groups weren'tdoing it for me.
They just seemed very chaotic.
And unfortunately, I know aunreal amount of people that
have lost their siblings.
So my friend Beth and I had beentalking about getting it
(39:09):
started.
So it was just a matter offinding the place.
And trying to build it up.
It's nothing huge, but it'shelping.
I know it's helping more thanjust me.
I've had other siblings thathave said to me, they're like, I
really appreciate your group.
and it's not that we try to keepit light and casual.
We just let the conversationflow as it does.
(39:30):
But we've talked about all sortsof things and it's just nice to
be around people thatunderstand.
But it also has opened my eyesto the fact that even other
siblings might not understandthe depths of your grief or
every situation.
So different.
There was, a threesome that camein three sisters that had lost
(39:53):
their sister at 62 to cancer.
And they had known for two yearsthat they were going to lose
her.
So it's just very situational.
but it seems to be likeeverybody's getting something
beneficial out of it, which I'mhappy about.
Yeah.
It felt like a way to honor himand still take care of my mental
health at the same time.
Yeah, so Beth is on the episodethat airing the week before this
(40:16):
one.
Okay.
Dr. Dean (40:18):
Yeah, I'm actually curious to learn more about this
group and see how we can worktogether with that if that's of
any use, to you, but alsoperhaps participate in myself.
So thank you for doing thatbecause there are certainly few
resources across the world anddefinitely here.
so thank you.
Kate Chertik (40:37):
Absolutely.
I know so many people that Ihave invited and that have not
gone and I hope they show up,but I've just noticed too with a
lot of people that, that Ifthey're fortunate enough, they
don't need the resource, butI've noticed people that are
further out from their grief,just don't seem to talk about it
as much, I don't know if they'reover it, I don't know what it
(40:58):
is, but it's everybody in thegroup is, it's like a newer lost
me, Beth.
I have a friend who she hasn'teven been at a year yet.
And then I think I have somebodyelse that's two years out.
And so it's all more recent.
That's a little bit tough.
Dr. Dean (41:15):
What I think the challenge there is because
society has said that the normfor us to grieve is a year,
which is ridiculous.
and so I think part of whatyou're doing and part of what
I'm doing with The Broken Pack™and other, grief people are
talking about is let's normalizegrief.
(41:35):
It's a loss that lasts with youfor a lifetime.
And I've talked about thisbefore, and listeners have
probably heard this multipletimes, but my own father is
still very much grieving hisbrother that died six decades
ago.
so for all of our guests, I'vetalked about that.
And given the opportunity totalk and say, tell me about your
sibling, tell me about whoeverdied, mother, brother, cat,
(41:58):
whomever you're grieving, peopleare willing to talk about that
and how it's impacted them.
So I don't know that it'snecessarily people aren't going
to come to the group.
They just don't feel they havethe permission to do that.
And so I think we can work tochange that.
Kate Chertik (42:13):
Yeah, I just, I think it's a huge resource.
Like you said, there's nothingout there.
I think I only stumbled uponthe, Compassionate Friends
Facebook page.
That's actually how I met Beth,by accident, but especially in
that first year, I think itmakes a world of difference.
it's so isolating.
(42:34):
And you think it's one of those,and a perfect example of that is
I just felt like I, the angerthing, going back to being angry
at our siblings, like you don'teven feel like you can express
that to anybody.
And I, people feel ashamed foreven feeling that.
And I just want people to knowthat is okay I mean you have to
if you're not talking about it,you're carrying it and it gets
(42:55):
heavy And so that's why i'm notpushing anybody to go.
I just wanted everybody to knowthat it's a resource that is
there
Dr. Dean (43:03):
Is there a link that we can share?
It's for our listeners.
This is a local group for thePittsburgh area.
but is there a link I can sharefor anyone that would be able to
attend?
Kate Chertik (43:16):
don't have a link what i've been doing is making a
Dr. Dean (43:18):
Okay.
Kate Chertik (43:20):
Which I can send to you
Dr. Dean (43:21):
I can share that.
Kate Chertik (43:21):
it and it just yeah, it gives some basic
information
Dr. Dean (43:25):
Are there other things that you wish you knew or
thought could have been helpfulin those early days, early
months?
Kate Chertik (43:33):
My biggest thing and this is going to sound
contradictory because it's itdidn't necessarily work for me
Reaching out is huge.
I mean being around peoplefinding people that Are willing
to let you listen and let youtalk about the memories.
(43:53):
And I don't care if you want totalk about them for five hours
or
Dr. Dean (43:58):
Mm
Kate Chertik (43:59):
but just finding those people that are willing to
listen is so important.
Those first few days, it was soeasy for me first few months,
honestly, it was so easy for meto isolate and to just let the
depression take over, let thegrief take over.
let the anxiety take over.
and retrospectively, I reallywish I hadn't done that.
(44:21):
Maybe I would be further alongin my healing journey today If I
hadn't isolated the way that Idid in the
Dr. Dean (44:27):
beginning.
Mm
Kate Chertik (44:29):
Yes.
and really just pushed peopleaway.
and not intentionally, it was,again, it was just like an out
of body experience, but thatwould be my biggest suggestion
is finding people, even if theycan't relate to it.
on the specific loss, justfinding people that understand
that grief needs to be talkedabout and that there, we need to
(44:49):
hold space for grief rather thanjust burying it.
Those people are so important.
And I know we don't think thatit'll make us feel better.
We get in our heads and we'relike, nothing's going to make me
feel better.
The only thing that's going tomake me feel better is my
sibling being alive again.
I don't think we realize howinteracting with those people,
even if it's 10 minutes, justgetting what you need to off
(45:12):
your chest is imperative.
it's huge.
Dr. Dean (45:16):
I agree with that.
Now some people don't like totalk, and so you, like myself,
are a, you griever that likes totalk.
And as for some people, it'sjust doing things.
There's different styles ofgrief and grieving.
Kate Chertik (45:31):
My mom threw herself into work.
Dr. Dean (45:33):
Yeah,
Kate Chertik (45:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (45:35):
which many people do.
Kate Chertik (45:37):
busy.
Dr. Dean (45:38):
yeah, started an organization and started grief
group.
Those things are also doingright.
yeah.
So are there other things thatyou wanted to share before I ask
you about the memory?
Kate Chertik (45:53):
No.
No.
I, I second guess my judgmentthese days just because, again,
I can go from being normal andfeeling like the old Kate to
being back in the hospitalwithin a matter of hours.
So it's tough.
Dr. Dean (46:10):
Do you think that the therapy that you are attending
has been helpful for grief?
Kate Chertik (46:15):
No, and I don't say that today.
My therapist was not a griefspecific therapist.
and I feel like she, I probablyshould have talked more than I
did.
I feel like she let me hook alittle bit, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
which is easy to do.
once I start crying, like nobodywants to deal with that.
(46:36):
I really have to.
Was it helpful?
No, because it, we can only hearso many times, it's gonna get
better, it's gonna get easier,you have to feel it.
we know these things,instinctively.
We already know that we don'thave any other choice to get
through it.
I think it would be better tofind a therapist that has
(46:57):
experience in the loss andexperience with the grief
itself.
Someone like you or even maybenot a sibling specific loss but
somebody that knows loss andgrief in their soul I think
would have been a lot better.
I think my therapist was just,and I love her, don't get me
wrong, I'm not gonna stop seeingher, She was just, it was just
(47:17):
very textbook.
Just very textbook.
Dr. Dean (47:22):
Yeah, to be fair, and I'm, this is why I harp on
things like this in thenewsletter is there is a
specific level of training.
to be able to work with griefand loss that most therapists
and psychologists and counselorsdo not have training in.
For many of our programs, thedeath and dying class, there's
(47:44):
maybe one, or there's a griefcounseling class, but for the
most part, and this is ageneralization, but most
programs, that's an optionaltraining.
I like an elective.
so that's why I harp on makingsure you're asking the right
questions when you're lookingfor a grief therapist or grief
counselor.
And those are two differentthings too, but, so that you're
(48:06):
getting what you need and it'sokay to fire a therapist.
I, we don't usually take thatpersonally.
if we do our problem, not yours.
so making sure you find thatperson.
And the reason I ask you aboutthat is I'm working to try to
create some training aroundgrief specific to sibling loss
for therapists.
There are a lot of trainingprograms out there to help
(48:27):
people become a better griefinformed or grief, humble,
therapist..
So I'm not trying to dish onanyone specifically, I just in
general wanted to ask aboutthat.
Kate Chertik (48:38):
yeah, and I don't think every therapist is grief
specific.
Like you said, it's specificclasses, it's special classes,
the same way that it would belike a drug and alcohol
counselor.
and so my therapist was notspecific for grief, but at the
time I wasn't even capable oflooking for one.
I was just like, I need you,
Dr. Dean (48:58):
Mm
Kate Chertik (48:59):
please help me.
So I threw a lot
Dr. Dean (49:01):
yeah.
So would you like to share someof your favorite memories about
Larry?
Kate Chertik (49:07):
Yeah, one of them was definitely the Penn State
one.
He was just such a goofball.
I was just thinking about onelast night because my dad and I
are going to the Italianfestival in Philadelphia next
weekend.
And right before, the Octoberbefore he passed away, we had
gone out of town with mydaughter up to Reystown.
And we went to the Bedford FallFestival, I want to say.
(49:30):
My dad and my daughter went offto go to a food truck and we
lost them.
And so me and Larry are walkingaround, it's packed.
There's like thousands of peopleand we're like, okay, we know
they're getting food, but whatare they getting?
And at one point Larry and Ijust looked at each other and we
were like hot sausage at theexact same time.
And we walk right over to thehot sausage booth.
(49:51):
And that's where my dad waslike, that's it.
It was just, you had to be there
Dr. Dean (49:56):
You both knew him
Kate Chertik (49:57):
like know my dad.
Yeah, we both knew him well.
We knew each other well to evenknow what to think about where
to find him in this group ofthousands of people.
It was hilarious.
We were just cracking up and wewere like, we've looked at all
these food stands.
Of course, you're at the hotsausage stand.
I remember the one time he wasalways, I have a pit bull and he
actually have a pit bull becauseLarry loved pit bulls.
(50:19):
And, he used to help me out withher a lot and she had gone
through a heat and Larry didn'teven know what a heat was.
And, so, this is gonna sound soweird, her nipples hardened, her
nipples protruded.
So I remember I was at work oneday and Larry called me and he's
Kate, he's we need to get Mazeto AVETS right now.
And I was like, what is wrong?
I was like, I've been gone fortwo hours.
(50:40):
And he was like, she's got thesepimples all over her stomach.
He was like, they're super red.
I don't even know what they are.
And I said, pimples.
I said, send me a picture,Larry.
I'm not going to Avets forpimples.
And he sends me a picture of hernipples.
And I was like, Larry, they'renipples.
And he was like, what do youmean they're nipples?
Dogs don't have nipples.
I said, how do you think theyfeed puppies, Larry?
(51:03):
He genuinely was very confusedabout what was going on.
He called me in a panic at workand was ready to go drop like
thousands of dollars at Avets.
Just for them to say, Hey, she'sin heat.
And those are her nipples incase she gets pregnant and has a
litter.
Oh my gosh.
I love him.
He's so goofy.
(51:24):
So smart, but blonde at the sametime, like ditzy at the same
time.
Dr. Dean (51:29):
That's hilarious.
Kate Chertik (51:31):
Yeah, it was ridiculous.
I felt he's not here now so Ican embarrass him.
So I had to like, let the worldknow that story existed and that
he thought those were pimple, orthat he thought those were,
yeah, a problem.
He had no idea what they were.
He's like, why is there so many?
I was like, why is there somany?
Dr. Dean (51:45):
Well, you also saved him from embarrassment of taking
the dog to the vet.
So I'm glad that you also lookedout for him.
You could have been like, Idon't know, take
Kate Chertik (51:53):
have just let him.
Oh, that's awesome.
Dr. Dean (52:02):
All right.
is there anything else you wantto say about scooters or scooter
safety in general?
Kate Chertik (52:08):
Just don't ride them.
That's my opinion.
Dr. Dean (52:11):
That works.
Kate Chertik (52:11):
If they come back and you might see me on the news
throwing them into our rivers, Ihave a whole team of Larry's
friends ready to go.
We are just gonna literally getrid of all of them.
Dr. Dean (52:22):
I will sign up for that.
All right.
thanks for talking today.
Kate Chertik (52:27):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me on.
Dr. Dean (52:30):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
(52:51):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
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