Sibling Loss After a Tragic Accident: A Surviving Sibling Honors Her Sister's Compassion: Beth / Emily

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.

(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode, I spoke withDr.
Beth Hoffman, a faculty memberat the University of Pittsburgh
and the Department of PublicHealth.
She's a researcher and she alsolooks at grief in media, but
most importantly for today'sepisode, she is a surviving
sibling of her sister Emily whotragically died in a pedestrian

(00:56):
accident in the City ofPittsburgh.
We talked about a relationshipwith her sister her memories how
she's carrying her sister Emilywith her and how this is
Influencing her and her family.
Take a listen All right.

(01:18):
so welcome to the show.
How do you want to introduceyourself to our listeners?

Beth Hoffman (01:23):
Hi, so my name is Beth.
and I often also say that I amthe older sister of Emily.
and I'm coming to you fromPittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Dr. Dean (01:34):
So close.
So much.
Welcome.
what would you like us to knowabout Emily?

so Emily, from a very young age, until she
tragically died too young,possessed just an intense,
Curiosity and love of life.
She, was an adventurer, she wasa traveler, but she was also so

(02:06):
content to be at home on thecouch with her beloved cats, in
later years.
That was her beloved Sheldon.
And she wasn't afraid to seekher own path, to question what
she was being told or whatsociety may have told her.
and in that way, she also hasreally inspired me to think more

(02:28):
about what matters to me, whatI'm passionate about.
and yeah, she just was soloving, so generous.
But also, As I think maybesometimes happens when you're
the younger sibling, and we havea lot of home videos to show how
I often did not let her get aword in edgewise as the older

(02:49):
sibling.
she learned how to speak up andhow to make her opinions heard
from everything from when wewere kids, which American Girl
doll she wanted, to as an adultadvocating for reproductive
justice or for better treatmentfor animals, what her passions
were.

Dr. Dean (03:07):
That's interesting that you were able to see that.
before she died?

yeah.
During the height of thepandemic, my dad digitized all
these home videos we had, fromlike the big camcorder, from
years and years, ago.
And so we were all still at homewatching those videos together.
and I'm so glad that we havethose memories.
And we've had, we had theopportunity to watch some of

(03:33):
them together.
laughing, about in particular,there was one on Christmas
morning.
So my family, my dad is Jewish.
My mom is Presbyterian.
So we grew up celebrating allthe holidays.
and there was one where.
Emily is tearing through apackage, tearing through the
wrapping paper, and justyelling, Oh, mine's in a

(03:56):
package! I think it's a mermaid!and my dad pointed out, Emily
did not have an inside voice,because I kept talking over her.
and then at one point I'myelling be careful.
Emily.
It's china.
It's china And then my parentsjump in and say no it's made in
China and i'm like, oh, I couldonly see the china and then

(04:17):
anyway, she rips through thispackage and Just it's this like
plastic.
Like a shopping thing had like ayou know A conveyor belt and you
rung up and she emily holds itup and very intently goes this
is not from China and so weactually watched that, prior to
Christmas of 2020 and so we sortof recreated it.

(04:40):
I gave her, 2020 It was actuallya cat toy, but it looked like a
COVID, the COVID particles andwe did that.
So So yeah, it's been reallyspecial to rewatch those I go
through phases where you know, Ilove rewatching them and then
other periods where it's prettydifficult.

(05:01):
but, I've really, appreciated,people who have been, willing to
sit down and watch.
And, I've, in Emily's passing,reconnected with some friends,
many of whom have young kids.
And then they send me videos oftheir kids and I guess sisters
that are about three yearsapart.

(05:21):
in terms of the, dressing up andputting on play.
We have another one where I madeEmily cry because she wasn't.
I was directing some play that Ihad written and she wasn't doing
it right in my head.
And so then I have a friend whosends me their two kids and it's
the same things.
And, and so I find comfort andthinking that those memories

(05:46):
live on and and yeah, it's justbeen, it's been really special.

Dr. Dean (05:51):
Good.
How much older are you?

Three and a half years.
So I was born in December of 84,and then Emily was born on
Mother's Day, actually, in 88,and my, mom had actually been on
bed rest for a couple months, soI do have some vague memories of
that, Watching Sesame Streettogether while we waited for

(06:17):
Emily to arrive.
and that's actually of a homevideo the family was born and I
joke that I guess I've alwaysbeen a home buddy and like being
at home because I'm at thehospital and then at some point
I basically go.
Okay.
I have to go home now I have togo to my house.
I'm gonna walk home.
and but yeah, but then You,yeah, we have some videos too

(06:40):
of, of me, I was three and ahalf, so I think to me, she was
maybe just another baby doll atthe time, but yeah.

Dr. Dean (06:51):
What was your relationship like with her?

So I've often said that I think we were sisters in
the truest sense of the word, inthat particularly when we were
little, we did a lot ofsquabbling, again, I think
pretty sibling stuff, she wantedto play with my toys.
I thought she was going to messthem up.
We also went to a pretty smallschool for K through 12.

(07:17):
So there were only about between40 and 50 kids in a grade.
and so I think there were sometimes where she maybe felt a
little bit in my shadow, likeshe was Beth's little sister.
although as we both got intohigh school, I was a senior when
she was a freshman.
we really did start making ourown paths.
but then after I went tocollege, so I went to college in

(07:38):
Rhode Island.
And she would come visit me andstay with me and then she ended
up going to college in Boston.
So then that was my senior yearher freshman year and I'd take
the train up and visit her orshe would come down and then the
following year I was in D.
C.
and she spent, She went toNortheastern where they did co

(07:58):
ops as part of their undergrad.
So she was also in DC.
and then as adults, we werejust, we were so close.
And, even when we were livingapart, it's not that I don't
always think it's it matters thefrequency that you connect But
just that way in which you canconnect and sometimes we'd be
busy We'd go up a few dayswithout talking, but I always

(08:20):
knew she was there.
We had also when I was in eighthgrade and emily was in fifth
grade.
our mom had Brain surgery andthen there were some
complications.
She had a stroke.
Um, she had a coup contrecouphead injury.
So we, we went through thattogether.
and I remember feeling as theolder sister, I wanted to

(08:41):
protect her.
And then her getting very upsetwith me because she didn't want
to be protected.
She, I still remember one timeher yelling at me, stop
mothering me.
and I think, but I think that,that really did bring us
together.
And, back in 2019, she came backto Pittsburgh and, we knew we
couldn't live together.
we do better a little bit apart,so she was actually living, on

(09:04):
the third floor of my parents'house, and I'm in a condo about
15 minutes away, but, we did alot together, and at the same
time, we both had, We were soalike in our love of introvert
time our love of alone time ourlove of cat time and so It was
just that unspoken bond like Iknew that it was Okay, yeah,

(09:27):
Saturdays are meant for layingon the couch with cats, and,
we'll catch up another day, and,It was one of those things of
after she died, I realized, Idon't think I really took it for
granted.
I don't feel like I ever tookour relationship for granted,
but just, I guess I did take forgranted just having that person
that, You don't have to say aword to and they understand or

(09:51):
having that, even I, I fostercats and kittens and she was
always there to help with thator, things like that.
So, I would say, we were reallyclose.
and, and we just, I think,People often don't realize that
yeah, you're so she was my she'smy only sibling.
So They're the only person whohas known you your whole life

(10:13):
and has seen you at all thesephases and that I thought we
would You know, we would Youknow be the ones growing old
together.
I if you don't mind, I actuallyhave a picture that I if I can
find it, so The year before shedied we visited at the time my

(10:35):
so this is my my grammy and mygreat Aunt Doris

Dr. Dean (10:39):
I will put this,

Yes,

Dr. Dean (10:41):
the picture in the,

okay,

Dr. Dean (10:44):
on the website, and then I will, we can, if you want
to describe it, because not allthe

Yeah, so in this picture, so my Grammy actually
died about six months afterEmily did

Dr. Dean (10:54):
Mm.

But my grammy was 94 at the time of her death and
was helping to care for her 101year old older Sister my great
aunt Doris and so I joked withEmily like that's gonna be us
You're gonna be taking care ofme and you know I still remember
last year visiting my great auntDoris, she's now in a nursing
home and her saying we both lostour baby sisters this year and

Dr. Dean (11:17):
Mm.

that was just really profound.

Dr. Dean (11:21):
Yeah, I think about that too, like generationally a
lot of times there's this ageismaround grief that happens, like
we expect to live our wholelives with our siblings, but
even that's a great example ofhow sibling loss is so hard for
your aunt, right?
101, you said?

Yeah, now she's 102 still.
Yeah, but yeah, that was her.
That was her baby sister.
Um,

Dr. Dean (11:49):
thank you for sharing that.
That's a parallel.
What was it like When you justlooked at that picture and said,
we thought this would be us.

I don't have a great descriptor for it.
so I'm an academic.
I love my words.
And I think that's also been anexperience.
Something I've noticedthroughout all of this that hard
to describe.

Dr. Dean (12:17):
Mm

There's a lot of people, I'm very blessed to have
a lot of friends, to have greatfamily who will ask, how are
you?
And I often default to, I'mokay.
Because it feels like that'swhere I level out at there are
times where I'm particularlywhen i'm busy with work or I

(12:39):
coach gymnastics and i'm doingthat and or even things we've
done a lot to honor Emily'smemory, which brings me a lot of
comfort and then there are othertimes where you know, I'm on the
I'm on the floor with my catscrying And at the end of the
day, it kind of levels out tookay, but it just has, I've gone

(13:02):
through other losses, at onepoint, I honestly stopped
counting.
There were over 20 people I knewabout my age that had died young
due to suicide or substance useor other mental health
conditions.
And It's almost like you couldmaybe think that prepared me but

(13:23):
for something that was one thissudden because Emily was hit by
a car.
so it literally came out ofnowhere.
And too, not only my sibling,but someone that I just I've
worried a lot through the yearsabout other friends of mine who
were struggling with healthproblems or my parents or other

(13:45):
people and Emily was literallyIt never crossed my mind that
this would happen But yeah, Ijust think, I even, I was
talking to a friend of mine, afew weeks ago who also actually
her, her younger sister, alsonamed Emily, died in 2019 and we
were even saying how the Englishlanguage is just hard.

(14:08):
Do I say?
Emily and I were big fans of theTV show, The West Wing.
I'm still a fan of it, and sheis still, but but then if I say
something like, oh, my sisterand I love the show, The West
Wing, and people don't knowwhat's happened, then, sometimes
they don't, they start askingquestions and then it comes oh,

(14:29):
actually, She's dead.
or even when, her cat died a fewmonths after she did, we really
think of a broken heart.
And, I was talking with thisfriend whose sister's cat also
died after she passed and saidsomething of Oh yeah, my
sister's cat died.
And people who didn't know werelike, Oh, how's your sister
holding up?
And she was like, she's dead.

(14:51):
But just this weird, do you usepast tense, do you use present
tense?
And then, yeah, how do youdescribe that, I look at that
picture and like it's justwrong.

Dr. Dean (15:03):
Mm hmm.

But,

Dr. Dean (15:04):
Well, it's interesting about the tense, like a couple
episodes ago, I talked to StevenPetrow, he's a journalist, and
right at the beginning of ourinterview, he said, I don't know
if it's grammatically correct tosay, I was, like, his sister,
his sister's brother orsomething along those lines.
And it, it is a weird thingabout the language.

(15:27):
you still are a fan of that showand you are still here.

Yeah, it's, and it's interesting because, so my
mom's older sister, her and herhusband, their daughter died, in
2008.
She had, been born with acongenital heart condition, had
a heart lung transplant, andafter the transplant survived
for, I think 16 years, but thendied at age 28, and they pointed

(15:57):
out, nobody says, because I saidsomething of, I don't know, do I
say, I have a sister?
I had a sister, I have a sisterand she died and they pointed
out, we still say that we'reparents.
We're still Karen's parents.
And it led me to think abouthow, I think in that space with

(16:17):
the loss of a child, there's noquestion about, yeah, you are
that person's parent.
You still are parents.
That is not taken away from you.
It's something I think in thesibling space we're still I
still am emily's sister.
I hold that and I always say i'mEmily's older sister but then in

(16:40):
talking to some people who'vealso had sibling loss who they
were the youngest But then asthe years go on now, they've
surpassed their sibling in age

Dr. Dean (16:50):
Mm

It's just I'm not I don't think there's an answer.
I think these are just importantconversations to have and to You
Acknowledge how that affects thegrieving process in my opinion

Dr. Dean (17:03):
Absolutely.
I am my brother's younger sisterand I am older than my older
brother.
So it's, It is a thing tonavigate and I think everyone
does it differently.
And sometimes, and I think youfollow me on social media,
sometimes I post things inpresent tense and then I get a

(17:23):
hundred messages about it shouldbe past tense and then I'll post
things in past tense and then Iget a hundred messages about how
it should be present tense.
And I think because it's such apersonal choice.
It's hard to navigate that, Ithink it's personal for
everyone.
I do think people tend to leantowards the present tense
because that, they're stillpresent in our lives in so many

(17:45):
ways.
That's where I've landed, butthat might be different in five
years, but that's where I'velanded with it.
I don't know about you.

Yeah, related to that.
so a few weeks ago, I had somefriends in town, with their kids
who are eight and five and itwas really cute.
I gave their eight-year-old oneof, we have, cards that we got.
Emily was an organ donor.
These are her tribute cardsthat, the Center for Organ
Recovery, made for us and, Igave her one because I was

(18:16):
showing pictures of a recenttrip of mine where I take
pictures with the card As a wayto bring Emily with me And she
wanted one and I gave her oneand then it was really cute she
brought Emily with her to brushher teeth and all these other
things and then as with manypeople she's loves the show
Hamilton.
She was singing the songs and Isaid, oh, Emily loved Hamilton I

(18:36):
love Hamilton Emily lovedHamilton And she said no Emily
still loves Hamilton becauseyou're here to share that and
this was from an eight year oldand I thought You know,
sometimes I think kids becausethey're not tied up and i'm an
overthinker So maybe I do itmore than others, you know
overthinking it was just thatfreedom and being so sure and

Dr. Dean (19:00):
hmm.

I'd really taken that since then and And I think
it's just so important.
and also that I was very nervousoriginally about talking with
kids.
So I coached gymnastics.
They're about ages nine to 15.
and they knew, last Februarywhen Emily was, and then in the

(19:23):
time after, and a lot of themcame to her memorial service.
It was very sweet.
but I, I worried for a while, ifI bring it up, are they going to
get overly sad or they get it?
And what I've actually found is.
I think it helps to just createthat space to be able to say
something like, I'm a little sadtoday.
And then they're like, can Igive you a hug?

(19:44):
or even it's, so Emily was anorgan donor.
That's something that is reallyclose to my family heart.
And this month is, organdonation awareness month and
I've been wearing a bracelet forit.
and the other night, one of thegirls saw it and asked about it
and I.
I explained and I explainedwhere organ donation was and
said, sorry, I know that's a bitof a heavy topic and she just

(20:06):
said, no, but that's reallyimportant.
We have to know about this.

Dr. Dean (20:09):
Mm hmm.

So I don't know.
That's something I'm trying towork through in this experience,
but really realizing that asmuch as for adults, I think it
can be a conversation ender orcan make people uncomfortable.
Kids, they want to hear about itand they want to talk about it.
And it's, It helps to normalizeit and to say that I can be

(20:33):
grieving and come to gymnastics,grief doesn't always look like
that sobbing on the floor.
It also doesn't have to be thatyou, you put on a happy face and
pretend you're okay.
And I think Emily would likethat I'm doing that.

Dr. Dean (20:49):
Yeah, thank you for that.
Last week I was at theAssociation for Death Education
and Counseling Conference, theirannual conference, and I was at
a pre-conference workshop andthe woman next to me was from,
she was originally fromMalaysia.
China, that's where she's from.
So she was, this woman was fromChina and she just landed that

(21:13):
morning or the night before andso she was asking me questions
about grief education for kidsbecause that is her role there.
She works in grief education forchildren and she asked me what
our grief education is inschools for children.
And I, involuntarily laughedbecause I was like, which

(21:39):
probably was rude, but it was aninvoluntary reaction.
And I was like, we don't, we'rea very grief avoidant culture.
And she had assumed because thisconference was in the U S that
we were a grief focused culture.
And, so I think it's importantfor us to start to normalize
grief talk, right?
that eight had the sense to begentle with you.

(22:01):
grief is part of life, we're soavoidant of it that we don't
know how to talk about it.
So thank you for introducingthat idea.

Well, and I have to say, the more I've been open
to people, the more people it's,I meet that also say, Oh, I've
lost a sibling.
Oh, I lost this person.
these, a lot of these are peoplethat I've worked with for years,
known for years, and they hadnever shared.
and, even, so I'm a faculty atPitt Public Health, so I teach

(22:35):
several classes and I toyed alot this year with do I say
something at the beginning ofclass?

Dr. Dean (22:42):
Mm

and because last fall was my first semester
teaching since Emily had died,and I also started teaching
right after my grandma died, andI ended up deciding in my
graduate class to say somethingin the context of.
When going over courseexpectations of saying, we're
all human.
I understand that you alladults, you have lives outside

(23:05):
of the classroom and things canhappen and just need to
communicate with me if somethinghappens and I'll do my best to
support you.
And here's an example of how Iunderstand that in the fullest
sense.
And then again in the spring, Iwas teaching a class that I
designed on entertainment,media, and health, because
that's what my research focuseson, and it was so weird because

(23:29):
I had start, I had designed theclass before Emily died, and I
was looking at The syllabus Ihad to submit to our curriculum
committee, and the day before,the February, the one year
anniversary of when we chose totake Emily off life support and
honor her wish to be an organdonor was the day I had

(23:50):
scheduled to talk about organdonation on television.
I ended up moving it, actuallynot even so much because of me,
but, logistics and things, But Ireally felt, also, I kind of owe
my career to Emily, becauseshe's the one who, when we were
in high school, got me hooked onER and then West Wing and then
other shows that led me to beinterested in how do these shows

(24:12):
affect viewer perception ofdifferent professions and the
healthcare setting and thingslike that.
So I felt it was only fitting toat the beginning of class to
say, this is I owe this class tomy sister also because of what
I've gone through I nowunderstand better.
how certain topics can Beupsetting can be triggering.

(24:34):
So giving that context of why itwas important when students were
sharing media clips to providesome context in case it would be
upsetting to their peers And Iactually, just had some student
evaluations where they said howthey really appreciated that I
came to class to quote onestudent as a full human being

(24:55):
and created a space where theyfelt comfortable sharing and
That meant a lot to me, and I'mreally, because I think it's
important to, to show that,again, that, and because this is
a class on TV, that griefdoesn't always look like what it
looks like on TV where, althoughinterestingly enough, one of the

(25:16):
things we did talk about is thatoften death is shown on TV, but
not grief.
It's

Dr. Dean (25:22):
And death not accurately.
Mm

Right.
And even, think about all these,medical shows, which have
patients dying in them all thetime, but that's the end of the
storyline really.
and in those senses, it makessense.
these are not main characters tofocus on, but it's grief is very
rarely shown when it is, as yousaid, it's not really shown

(25:45):
accurately.
I joked, this is a very, I havea very dark sense of humor, but
I

Dr. Dean (25:49):
hmm.
So do I.
A little

nobody on tv, they don't show you filling out all
the paperwork that's involvedwith Death and how you're you
know, but or like the in modernday, you know, I had to contact
Hulu For example to change thesubscription to my name from
Emily's like things like that.

Dr. Dean (26:06):
Mm hmm.

But but yeah, so I think it's I just have been
trying to just I don't knowcreate that and yeah that it
looks You It looks different foreveryone.
For some people, myselfincluded, I, it's helped to stay
busy and to stay busy with workand that's something I'm really
connected with.

(26:28):
For other people, helpful.
That's not what helps and, Ihave often, I often felt like I
wasn't doing grief because Iwasn't doing it the way that I'd
seen in the media or that maybeother people had done it.
And I've been really lucky toconnect with other people who
have lost siblings and have thatdiscussion of there really is
no, there really is no rightway.

Dr. Dean (26:50):
I think, so Dr.
Ken Doka, who I had a beautifulconversation with last week,
actually, he is the, inventor ofthe concept of disenfranchised
grief.
That's it.
He's the pioneer there.
But he also with, Dr.
Terry Martin, described thesedifferent ways of grieving.
So we think of media.

(27:10):
You probably know a little bitmore about this than I do.
Media portrays this, intuitivetype of grief, which is more of
the emotional piece.
And what it sounds like is thatyou are more along the
instrumental griever.
So the doing and tasks andstaying busy.
And, I think the more that we,again, normalize grief, we can
see that there, there's no oneway to grieve.

(27:33):
And then he also describes thisblended approach and, people
that don't fall into any ofthose categories.
but we can't normalize that ifwe don't talk about it.
Just like we can't normalizesibling loss if we don't talk
about the sibling relationship.
So, thank you for all of that.

You're welcome.

Dr. Dean (27:49):
Do you want to say more about losing Emily?

So one thing that in terms of losing Emily, I
think, has stood out to me ishow, because it was sudden,
because, I basically February9th was any normal day.
My dad was going to come over,but he was running late, which
he usually isn't, and I thought,oh, that's weird.
And then about a half hourlater, I got a call from him to

(28:15):
come down to the hospitalbecause Emily had been hit by a
car.
and to be honest, based on thatcall, I expected I'd get down to
the hospital and Emily would bein a hospital bed with her leg
in a cast or something.
And, we'd laugh about that.
And then, When I got there andmy first inkling, it was worse
than I thought it was that I hadto go to the trauma ICU.

(28:37):
and then, I was sitting thereand my dad was telling me the
update from the surgeons, andthen I saw his, Paper that said
traumatic arrest, and I workedas an EMT in college.
I actually was on the, did ayear of med school before
switching over into publichealth.
so I knew what, and I, it's whyI was doing, because this was

(29:00):
about a month after, DeMarHamlin's collapse, and I was
doing all of this work relatedto community CPR education.
So I know what a traumaticarrest is, and I was like, oh,
that's bad.

Dr. Dean (29:11):
Do you want to explain that for the

Sure.
Yeah.
So a traumatic arrest, basicallywhat happened was from the
impact of being hit by the car.
she had so much damage to herchest that her heart stopped

Dr. Dean (29:21):
mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,

so basically a cardiac arrest, but caused by
trauma as opposed to, The heartmalfunctioning on

Dr. Dean (29:29):
mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,

And I should also add that both my parents are
physicians.
My dad's actually a pulmonaryand critical care medicine
doctor.
So, I, But I still remembercoming home that first night.
So when we were able to go backand we were able to see Emily,
and she was, intubated.
So she had a tube down herthroat and the machine was
breathing for her.
They were giving her lots ofblood and medications to

(29:52):
stabilize her.
they weren't able to close upher abdomen after the surgery
because of all the swelling.
So it was bad.
But I remember coming home thatnight and thinking, That I
should be grateful that she wasstill alive.
And actually talking to some ofmy colleagues who one of my
colleagues and she's also a goodfriend She's one of our EMS
medical directors.

(30:12):
So I was So fortunate to be ableto call her and say can you find
out information?
Do you know who's the physician?
You know who will be seeing herand then I was able to talk to
him and So I bring this upbecause to me there was This
immediate of oh my gosh, thishas happened and this is really
bad But i'm really grateful.

(30:33):
She's alive and trying to holdon to hope that she was going to
pull through this.
And we actually waited to updateto tell extended family, friends
until the next day when we knewa little bit more.
She had gone, she had anothermajor surgery.
but at that point we still, Imean we didn't know what her
recovery would look like, butthere was still talk of,

(30:55):
recovery.
This is a marathon, not asprint.
And when she steps down from theICU, and then it was the
following day on a Saturdaywhere they were concerned about,
her lack of brain function.
And so we're going to put,what's called a bolt catheter in
basically a tool to measure herbrain pressure.

(31:16):
and in placing the catheter,they had to do a CT scan.
And that's when they saw thatshe had a number of strokes.
traumatic brain injury, thingsthat were gonna, make it really
hard to have any sort ofmeaningful recovery.
And I was actually not at thehospital with my dad when he got
that news, although I went backlater.

(31:37):
and, That's when I still feltlike I was in this weird duality
where, so we had set up thiscaring bridge site which was
amazing.
Just, I'm so thankful that Iknew about that site from a
previous family member using itand another person recommending
it to me because it was just areally great way to be able to
update everyone.

(31:58):
But it was in this, We're youknow, I we still didn't have
confirmation of certain thingsand it was trying to keep up
Maybe there would be some sortof miracle.
Maybe things would turn aroundbut at that point to be
perfectly honest, I had I wouldhave these like bursts of Okay,
a miracle could happen or don'tyou know or still hold on to

(32:21):
hope but then for a while it wasjust a waiting game to until I
felt like we were going to hearthe inevitable And then on the
16th is when we met with thedoctor.
She had an MRI, which wasbasically confirmed what we
knew.
And, And so we decided to takeher off life support the next
day because we knew she wouldnot want to stay alive, hooked
up to machines.
And very fortunate that, afriend of my mom's who actually,

(32:44):
her daughter had died the yearbefore said, make sure you ask
about organ donation.
And so I did and it turns outthey were waiting to ask us.
They wanted to be a littlerespectful of our space.
but we got that process goingand then the next day is when,
is technically her date ofdeath, the 17th.
And the reason I went throughall of that though is because I

(33:07):
realized that this past yearwhen we were, preparing for the
one-year anniversary that to me,I feel like I lost her on the
9th, the date of the accident.
That to me is the big day.
yes, her death certificate andher obituary say the 17th, but
to me that, that was the day.
and then after that, again, asI've I'm a planner and in some

(33:30):
ways right after that, my, myfamily's the same way and my dad
and mom and I We jumped into, wegot to write the obituary.
We got to plan a memorialservice.
My dad handled a lot of thefinancial stuff.
and in some ways I don't have agreat memory of that time.
I think, a lot of grief brain isa real thing, but, I think for

(33:51):
me, the, that part that week shewas in the ICU is the part that,
that's just another element ofgrief almost that.
That trauma of seeing her there.
I have no regrets.
I'm glad I spent so much timewith her in the ICU the morning.
We said goodbye, actually wentand took my iPad and we watched

(34:15):
our favorite, or her favoriteWest Wing episode together.
and I really treasured that.
Again, remembering how we'reboth introverts and liked our
alone time, that one on one timewe had together.
But I think both as an introvertas well as just that emotional
rollercoaster and also seeingher hooked up to all the
machines seeing she was veryswollen and full of fluid and

(34:37):
it's been an act very activeprocess and I was lucky that I
was seeing a great therapistbefore this all happened and
I've been able to keep seeinghim, and also I feel really
grateful that, I, my, mypsychiatrist had actually lost
her son the year before and soin terms of her understanding,
The difference betweendepression and grief, both

(34:58):
professionally and personally,that's been invaluable.
but I think, yeah, workingthrough the, that traumatic
aspect of it, of, of seeing yourloved one in the ICU, of, of
going from, I'm so glad she'salive, and I'm so grateful to,
to that recognition that, Thatshe was not going to survive, I

(35:19):
think is something that, atleast has impacted me, in a way
that may have been different.
I don't want to compare becauseI don't know it, but just, it's
a little bit different than,perhaps, someone who's been sick
for a long time or somebody,and, And I think, I will say
immediately after she passed, soEmily was very adventurous.

(35:41):
That, that included, in 2013,she hiked the Camino de Santiago
across Spain on her own.
She planned the trip.
It's not lost on me, I often saythis, that she hiked across
Spain safely, but It was killeda few blocks from home in the
city, in her city home, she alsowent to Egypt twice to scuba
dive, yeah, there's, it was, in,in some ways it just felt like,

(36:03):
oh, she's on vacation or she'saway, and, I even actually
remember when she was in Egypt,there was a bombing where she
was, and I remember getting thisvoicemail from my dad of, I
think Emily's okay, but I don'tknow.
I'll update you more when I knowmore and, so for a while it just
It honestly just felt surreal.
I even started having thesedreams where Emily would come to

(36:28):
me in the dream and say I'm justhiding out.
I just don't want to talk topeople So i'm in the woods Like
I'll come and there was one timethat actually happened and it
was the week after so we'd hadEmily cremated And our nanny
from growing up had asked forSome of her ashes to put in a
locket and so I the weekendbefore I'd literally seen her

(36:50):
ashes And I had to remind myselfof that because that dream felt
so vivid.
and I've had other dreams whereI just had one a few weeks ago
where we excavated her and shedidn't stop breathing or she
didn't stop breathing and thenin the dream it was like one of
those weird time warp sequencesand then she came to and was
like was sitting up eatinghospital jello because that's

(37:12):
what and I was venting to herabout a situation in my life and
she was offering her perspectiveand, So I think that's probably
there's an aspect, you know Thefact that I'm still having those
dreams where it just it reallyfeels surreal and there's just,
small reminders here and there.
earlier this year, my mom felland ended up in the ER.

(37:35):
She fractured her sternum and Ijust never thought my parents
would be aging and I wouldn'thave Emily here and as much, I
absolutely, I love my parentsand they've been great.
throughout this process andthey've provided me with a lot.
your parents are your parentsand there's been some times
where we're all hanging out andI actually look over because I'm

(37:56):
expecting Emily had the bestside eye and the best eye roll.
You ask any of her friends fromhigh school, especially, and
they're like, Oh, that would bean Emily Eye role.
And and so I look over expectingthat.
And she's not there.
and I think that is, because ourrelationship was not one where
we felt like we had to talk 247, there are just times where I

(38:19):
still even think, Oh, she'sgonna call me.
She's and I just, I don't know,I think also I can't believe
it's been over a year too.
Like it time has taken on acompletely new meaning in a way.
Um I think there's two things soin terms of both losing Emily

(38:43):
last year and starting myfaculty job both things that
have taking a lot of time andattention I will say, especially
Emily's death has, caused me toreally sit back and evaluate,
what's important to me?
What's, what gives me meaning?
It's,

Dr. Dean (39:03):
hmm.

Emily used to always yell at me because I say
yes to everything.
She'd be like, you need to sayno, stop saying, stop saying
yes.
and so both in part to honorher, but also because of the
honest reality of, there's a lotof days I feel like I'm walking
through a pool with my clotheson and I, so I have to say no,

(39:24):
because just don't have thatsame bandwidth emotionally.
And even physically.
I think that's another aspect ofgrief that is often not talked
about.
The

Dr. Dean (39:37):
Yes.

physical components of, And as someone
who has, and I'm pretty openabout it, I've dealt with major
depressive disorder for a longtime.
And, there are times when itfeels very similarly to when I
would have those depressiveepisodes of just, you're, you
have no energy despite, I, Icould drink a million cups of
coffee and I'd still just wantto crawl in bed, but yeah, it's

(40:03):
just, it's it can be sophysically draining, in a way
that I, I didn't expect and thenalso again, I'm so thankful and
I love the opportunity to talkmore about the ways in which
we're honoring Emily and it'smeant so much to me.
but also these are all thingsthat are important to me and
they take time and I love doingthem, but then I also I hate

(40:27):
that i'm doing it because I Ifeel like emily should be there
with me.
Cute emily animal lover to hercore.
She often told my parents you'renot getting children.
You're getting fur children fromme she spent a winter up in
vermont on a siberian husky dogfarm so when we were honoring
her at our local animal sheltera few weeks ago, her and

(40:48):
Sheldon, they now have a roomnamed after them, her cat that
died a few months after her.
It was amazing and I keptlooking over my shoulder because
I expected Emily to be there

Dr. Dean (40:57):
I relate to that because I'm obviously doing this
somewhat in honor of my brotherand I know he'd be proud but you
look for that and I wouldn'tactually be doing this if he was
still here.

Yeah,

Dr. Dean (41:08):
I think it's interesting that your fatigue
with your grief and the just thedepletion that you're feeling
with that kind of opposite ofhow you described Emily, all of
her energy.

it's true.

Dr. Dean (41:23):
So I don't know what to make of that parallel, but I
just wanted to observe it.

Yeah, and I think though the thing I try to remind
myself is that Emily was alsofar better than me, good at
honoring her physical andemotional needs.
She was very good at saying, I'mgoing to hang out with Sheldon

(41:49):
today, or I'm going to go for awalk in Frick Park because it's
a beautiful day out.
And there's been a while where Ikept pushing through the grief,
and I did a lot of us.
I wanted to do a lot of thesethings.
but I've started to learn overthe last few months of I
actually feel very connected andFeel like i'm honoring emily

(42:10):
When I think what would emily door what would Emily say and
would is this something?
She would say yes to is thissomething where she would say,
you know what i'm tired I'mgonna go to bed at nine o'clock
tonight because I just want toand I really miss being able to
just ask her opinion.

(42:34):
But i'm finding especially overthese last You A few weeks, I
just did a trip.
I, I had a conference inEdinburgh, Scotland.
And when Emily hiked the Camino,she spent a little bit of time
in Dublin.
And she always wanted to go toScotland.
And so I went for theconference, but I went a few
days early and did some localtravel and hiking in her memory.

(42:57):
And then I went to Dublin andretraced her steps, this
literary pub tour she did andsome other things.
And, and since getting back,especially I've.
Tried to to honor emily.
Okay.
I'm just gonna i'm gonna lay onthe couch with my cats or I'm
gonna go I for a little while.
I think I brought the Scotlandweather back with me It was like
hailing one minute raining thenext but then as we've had nicer

(43:20):
days, you know thinking, okayI'm gonna i'm gonna walk down to
a coffee shop emily also I jokedso up in New England.
They drink iced coffee yearround and Emily went to college
up there She basically adoptedthat habit and loved her iced
coffee.
And so just trying in thosesmall ways to, to stay connected

(43:42):
to her.

Dr. Dean (43:43):
Which sounds like it's also coming out in your dreams.
It ends up meaning that you'regrieving her like when you wake
up, but

yeah.

Dr. Dean (43:52):
like you're very much staying connected.

trying, I think also just related to the
fatigue, It's hard to wake upand get out of bed when you've
just had a dream where yoursibling is there in the dream, I
don't want to wake up from that.
I don't,

Dr. Dean (44:05):
Mhm.

and so that's been a balance of trying to figure
out, when is it good to do thatbehavioral activation and say,
nope, I'm getting up, goingabout my day, and when is it
okay to say, you know what, I'mjust going to spend an extra
hour in bed today and, probablydoesn't help that my one cat,
when my alarm goes off, likes tocrawl under the covers with me

(44:27):
and snuggle up with me.
but yeah, I think, I don't know,it's, again, I feel like I'm at
a loss.
I can obviously talk a lot, butI still feel like sometimes I
don't have the words to describewhat it was like to lose Emily.

Dr. Dean (44:42):
Yeah, there's not a lot of great grief language and
then trying to put thoseemotions and other responses
into words is difficult, forsure.
I think some other languages doit better, but they're not even
exactly.

and I think even describing, I saw some graphic
or something, some meme at somepoint, it was describing grief
brain as like scrambled eggsbasically.
it's also hard to put into wordswhen.
There are times when your brainis not working as well as you
would have liked, or I wouldhave liked.

(45:20):
And that scrambled egg thing tome, just describes a lot of what
it was like to lose Emily.
Like it

Dr. Dean (45:26):
Mm

Totally, I still don't think it's real some days
because it, it was so unexpectedtoo.
in terms of emotions, like I'msad, but I'm angry, that it,
that it happened, I amflabbergasted, then I also think
about how, I can't imaginenavigating this without having

(45:51):
the knowledge I did of thehealthcare system and having the
connections I've had.
And then it really shifts to alot of the work I've done in the
public health space, cause as wetalked about grief, grief is a
universal experience.
we are all going to experienceit or have experienced it and

(46:12):
are going to experience somemore.
And so I do health educationwork in schools.
So how can we make this?
part of what we're teaching.
particularly coming out of thepandemic, where a lot of people
lost family members, olderfamily members, but just, there
was a lot of loss.
how can we help make our, thesesystems easier?

(46:35):
to navigate.
even in some of these hospital,like finding the trauma I see
you is difficult.
And when you're, frantically, Imet another person who's, who's
sibling died last year and wasalso an organ donor.
And we've really connectedaround that.
How can we make that processsmoother?
How can we encourage people toregister it meant so much to me,

(46:58):
but a few days actually beforewe had all the confirmatory
testing for emily it was organdonation awareness day it's
February 14th valentine's dayand I was down in the hospital
lobby and somebody handed me aflower and was like register to
be an organ donor save lives andI told them to f themselves
because that was when I wasstill in this space of Emily may

(47:21):
be an organ donor.
She may not like we don't shemay be walking.
We don't know and You and I wasalso highly emotional and sleep
deprived, but, but yeah, just,and, nothing is gonna bring
Emily back, but I do find, Ifind a lot of meaning in
thinking of ways to use thisexperience in a positive way,

(47:46):
and that also is something Ithink she would think.
of, she was, at the time of herdeath, she was working in tech,
doing a lot of, qualityimprovement, and actually there
was a little bit related to theorgan donation, there was a
glitch in their system, it senta letter to the wrong address or
something like that, and Iremember telling the person

(48:06):
that, After I calmed down fromthe original being upset that
and she had said, we're goingto, use this to improve our
quality improvement and things.
And I said, that would makeEmily very happy.
Emily was very much, a doer,very much cared about people and
wanted to make systems better.
That's actually why she wentinto tech.

(48:28):
She had been working at a nonprofit, She was working as a,
originally as a sailor, but thenas the, she coordinated all the
day sales up at the ErieMaritime Museum for the flagship
Niagara.
And she thought the softwarethey used was clunky and whereas
some people would be like, yeah,whatever emily was like I'm
gonna go to school and learn howto design better software.

(48:49):
And then there's not a greatword to describe that, of I'm
happy to be here, doingsomething, but I'm, like, even
today, I'm happy to be heresharing my story.
I'm glad that there is thisplatform, I'm glad also that
your podcast exists, and Ilisten to it, and I I just feel
so heard, and the things thatother people are saying, and it
just, it's been a great sourceof support, but I hate that you

(49:12):
have to have this podcast, thatboth of us are here, and, But
again, there's not a greatemotion word for happy, just, I
don't know.

Dr. Dean (49:22):
Yeah.
I am also glad to connect peoplein this community and of course
wouldn't be doing this.
If Tony was still here, I wouldstill be ignorant to the fact
that sibling loss is so painful.
not grief itself.
I've had that experience withthis loss.

Thank you for jogging my memory.
I said to someone like, I nowunderstand why they call it
heartache.
I have had many instances wheremy chest literally hurts and
That is in the other losses I'vehad both grandparents, I've had
relatives who, I mentioned mycousin who died, at 28, all

(50:03):
these friends that have passed,so I thought I knew heartache,
but I did not actually know thatphysical pain and I've actually
become, I don't use that word asmuch anymore because I'm like,
no, I, like now I know what itreally means.

Dr. Dean (50:23):
Yeah.
So I know that you wrote thatpiece on grief and media, social
media, or

Yeah,

Dr. Dean (50:32):
That was before Emily died.
So have you reflected back onthat work?
Or what have you learned thereversus your experience?

so I have, so in a bit of context, that in some
ways, that was inspired, thatwork was inspired by two, two
things.
one, my cousin, her husband diedsuddenly, back in 20, 2010, I
believe.
he died suddenly, and his twindaughters were 12 at the time.

(51:06):
and one of the daughters,started a blog, when she got a
little older, and she hadwritten in part about, so there
was a Facebook group after hispassing, and she wrote about how
on the one hand it was sohelpful and she loved seeing
people write memories of her dadand everything, but then
sometimes she got kind of angrythat she, her dad, he loved to

(51:27):
have a beer, he liked to, hiscigars, he was a big traveler,
and so she, she was like, I getjealous that.
Because he died when I was 12,I'm never going to have that
experience of, when I turned 21,having a beer with my dad.
and she was reflecting on theduality.
And then I had a number offriends who had died that I was

(51:48):
also, I was friends with in reallife as well as on Facebook.
And I was thinking about my ownexperience with how Facebook in
particular allowed a place to,some of them I probably would
not have known about their deathbecause we'd met in real life,
but I wasn't particularly closewith them.
and people created, memorialwalls and that was great.

(52:09):
But then, sometimes we'd get anotification like, Oh, it's so
and so's birthday today.
And.
And you're like, reallyFacebook.
so those.
brought the issue to theforefront of my mind.
And then I was part of a teamthat was doing broader research
on social media and mentalhealth.
So I went to the principalinvestigator and I asked, in the

(52:30):
next round of surveys, could weput a couple of these questions
in?
because I also, I startedlooking through the scientific
literature and there was solittle on it.
And and I remember the firsttime I presented at a conference
and, I just opened with how manyof you have lost someone and
realized that's also a friend onsocial media?
And every person raised theirhand.
And then they were like, wow, Inever, you're right, I never

(52:52):
thought of that.
So one of the things thatresearch found was, again,
really just this duality thatfor some people, it was really
helpful.
For some people, it was not.
And for most people, there werehelpful aspects and there were
not helpful aspects and this wasjust a, a first time study,

(53:17):
relatively small, only about 400responses, but I could even see
in some of it that a lot of itdepended on your relationship
with the person.
Somebody, for example, mentionedthey found out about their
grandfather's death on socialmedia, and that was a negative.
And then somebody mentioned,though, I found out about a high
school classmate of mine that Ihadn't really kept in touch
with, and that was a positive.

(53:38):
so in thinking about that withEmily, I realized, I experienced
both of this.
social media has, was a greatway to get the word out and to
not have to make 10 millionphone calls.
But then there was some time, Ihad a couple people who messaged
me that they were mad they foundout through social media and mad

(53:58):
I didn't contact them and to behonest, I was able to let that
go and say, you know what, I'msorry, I couldn't call everyone.
but I also, I don't know if it'sbecause of doing this study or
just because of priorexperience.
I have managed to use socialmedia, I think, in a way that's
more positive.
So I still use, I tag Emily in alot of things I do on Facebook

(54:23):
and things, and I, for me,that's really helpful.
I like thinking that, again, I'mtaking her with me.
but I also know, for example,that on National Siblings Day,
I'm gonna stay off Facebook orsocial media.

Dr. Dean (54:37):
So you'd probably be unhappy to know that
organization just announced lastweek that they're going to start
making it a whole week.

did not know that.
But I think the other thing isfor this year, I was not in a
great place on that day.
That could change.
and I also recently found outthat I think it was started by a
bereaved sibling, which,

Dr. Dean (54:56):
absolutely was, yes.

Yeah, so that now has actually changed the way I
think about the day.
And I guess my overall point isjust, there are some days where
I'll see.
Oh, you have memories to lookback with Emily.
And there are days where I dothat, and it brings me some
comfort to know that it's there.
It jogs a funny memory.

(55:18):
And then there are days where Iknow can't be on there.
And I think, to me, it's one ofthe things that's really
highlighted, we said in thepaper, that we made the
recommendations that clinicians,it's probably important to ask
somebody if you're seeing themfor grief, what is your
relationship with social media?

(55:38):
How are you using it?
it's worthwhile, I know thatoften research is always like
future research or more researchis needed, and I don't want to
just go to that line, but thisis an area that's so
understudied, and so if we wantto try to make evidence based
recommendations around healthysocial media use with grief, we

(55:58):
need to hear more from people,and

Dr. Dean (56:02):
Yeah, there were actually some presentations on
this last week.
I would invite you to join.

Yeah,

Dr. Dean (56:07):
And I can send you that information.
But, that aside, I think Iinterrupted you.
Is there, was there anythingelse you wanted to say on that?

No, I think I was just gonna say that it I think
one of the things We didn't doin this, that study because it
was such a small sample and itwas an exploratory is I really
would want to do more specific.
This experience has shown mejust how different types of

(56:36):
losses are, how different it iswhen it's your sibling, how
different it is if it's a closefriend, how different it is if
it's, a cousin or something.
And so I think, It really helpedit hit home that in thinking
about this work, we need to makesure that we're, we are looking
at these nuances, even siblingloss when it's a loss by suicide

(57:00):
compared to a prolonged illnesslike cancer.
You know, taking into accountthe, those differences, when we
look at all this, instead ofjust making, I, I have long come
from the stance that whetherit's social media, whether it's
entertainment media, likenothing's inherently good or
bad.

(57:21):
I'm not saying social media bad,social media good, but just when
we're thinking about what ishelpful and what is not helpful,
we, we have to look at thesenuances because

Dr. Dean (57:31):
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, I am aware of that.
And I also am aware that a lotof what I do is blanket and
large, but the long term plan isto nuance it.
It's just one step at a time,right?
Yeah.
but your point around howdifferent losses are different
again, I would invite you tojoin ADEC because we are talking

(57:52):
about that.
We are a very grief.
focused group and how we canchange this and it's a lot of
clinicians, but it's also a lotof researchers and, so hopefully
there's some change there.
I do want to, and I know wedon't have a lot more time, but
I did want to hear from youabout how, because you're doing
a lot of great things to honorEmily.

(58:15):
Did you want to share aboutthat?

Yeah.
So I recognize that, my familyis.
fortunate, financially and alsoEmily was quite the saver.
She was and had a lot of moneyput aside for retirement and
things like that.
and also, We were also veryfortunate that Emily had great
health insurance, so we had alot of people reaching out about

(58:39):
donating toward her medicalcosts, and we did not need that,
but we said, please, we will putsomething in place soon, and so
we were at the very beginning,after she died, able to raise a
decent amount of money.
That we could put towardscholarships because again,
Emily just loved learning.
Her and I both often joke thatwe'd be professional students if

(59:02):
we could.
and we were very fortunate to goto a great, K through 12 school.
That had a lot of experientiallearning, but recognizing that a
lot of the things Emily did inhigh school, she, as I think I
mentioned, she traveled, shelearned how to scuba dive and
sail and she traveled to Egypt.
those were summer programs thatmy parents were able to afford.

(59:22):
And so we started a scholarshipin her name, to, help students
that are on financial aid at theschool we went to, be able to do
these opportunities that some oftheir, peers who have families
have more money would be able todo.
we also, Emily had done, thiscoding boot camp that really
launched her career into tech.
And this was a great program.

(59:43):
It was several months long, notas long as getting a four year
degree.
And one of the things we thoughtwas so great about the program,
and Emily did too, was theyoffer job placement.
They do, they help students puttogether their LinkedIn, they do
mock interviews, they help themreach out to employers.
So almost every student whenthey graduate, they have a job

(01:00:04):
lined up.
And so we, we were also able tostart a scholarship in Emily's
name, specific for women,because they're so very
underrepresented in tech, andspecific to those in the
Pittsburgh region.
And then related to that, wealso learned one of her
classmates at Tech Elevator,shortly after Emily died,

(01:00:24):
reached out to the programdirectors and said, Emily asked
the most questions in class.
She was so curious.
She never wanted to just be toldto do something.
She wanted to know why.
so I think you should start thisaward called the Emily Hoffman
Curiosity Award.
And have it be in her name.
And so we had nothing to do withthat, but they did it.

(01:00:46):
last year we saw the firstrecipient of that.
And then actually I, I wasn'table to go today, but my dad
went to meet the secondrecipient.
and that has been reallymeaningful.
and, Then we also, for manyyears, Emily worked up in Erie
at the flagship Niagara,sailing, and then working into
their, becoming an employee.
We've been in talks with themabout, again, trying to help

(01:01:09):
people cause, cause Emily had alot of savings.
and my parents were also able tosupport her financially when she
did their, their trainingprograms.
so those we've all set up toreally honor Emily's love of.
learning and again, of thisexperiential learning of the
idea that learning doesn't justhappen in a classroom.
we also, I've, been working withthe League of Women Voters, of

(01:01:33):
Pittsburgh, Emily.
Again, huge West Wing fan, hugeinterest in civic participation
in voting, reproductive justice,and, she never let me forget
when it was a primary day, Itwas like, you can't just vote in
the general election, you gotta,trying to work around doing some
programs related to civicseducation and also, voter

(01:01:55):
initiate, voter drives.
and then, yeah, she was my, defacto co cat fosterer, co kitten
fosterer.
in fact, the last voicemail Ihad from her, so I had gone to
Los Angeles, for work, and shestayed at my place to watch, I
had five foster kittens at thetime, because They, so I had the

(01:02:17):
mom, who was uber feral, andonce the kittens were weaned,
mom went back to be spayed andreleased.
And not all of the, I thoughtall the kittens were eating on
their own, but they weren't.
And Emily stayed here andhelped.
Get you know feed them bottlesand help with that and as it
happens with kittens onedeveloped diarrhea and I have a

(01:02:39):
voicemail about i'm taking latkeinto the shelter and I got
probiotics and I got and um, andthen I actually ended up four of
those kittens already had homeslined up And so then when emily
died, I kept the fifth and so Inow have another cat of my own.
Thanks to Emily.
but yeah, she so devoted to theanimals.

(01:03:01):
at my parents house, they havewhat's called a catio, which is
this little outdoor cat patio.
The cats come in through a catdoor in the window from inside
and then they can play Beoutside, but still be inside.
and Emily used to sit out therewhile the cats were in the
catio.
And we've donated to our localshelter to Humane Animal Rescue
of Pittsburgh to, to they had anexisting patio structure, but it

(01:03:25):
needed a lot of work to beusable.
so a few weeks ago, we had theunveiling of that.
And, and I continue to fosterAnd it just is really nice to
have this, the space, though,and know that, some of these
cats will get adopted.
and then the final thing we aredoing, at least for now, is, oh,
we have two.
one, also, I mentioned mygrandma died.

(01:03:45):
Emily's favorite place in theworld was my grandma's house on
the jersey Shore.
and after my grandma sold thehouse a number of years ago,
because in her nineties it wasgetting harder and harder to
have two houses, we startedrenting a house every summer and
going there and, we were able toget a bench, in honoring her and
my grandma and, And similarly,we are going to have a bench in

(01:04:08):
our local park, in Frick Park,because even though Emily had
hiked, across Spain, hiked theCamino, she loved nothing more
than to go down to the park andhike through it.
it was often, I will be honest,hiking with her Basically, let's
stop and pet every dog.
but

Dr. Dean (01:04:24):
on Frick Park you can do that.
Lots of dogs do, yeah.

Beth Hoffman (01:04:30):
We've been really lucky in a lot of these ways and
it's really it's I like the factthat you know These things are
gonna outlast me gonna outlastanyone and and then I guess I
should mention the final thingwe've been doing is working with
You The mayor at the city ofPittsburgh recently announced
Vision Zero, so getting to zeropedestrian and bike deaths.

(01:04:51):
Emily was one of sevenpedestrians killed in the city
last year, and so that work hasjust started, but I'm honored
for the ways to share her storyand really work so that no
family has to go through,getting that call again.

Dr. Dean (01:05:09):
Thank you for doing all of that.
I did also want to mention,because you talked about that
week, how for you the day she Mydad was the day of the accident.
And then you had, was it a weekor so in the ICU?

Yeah.
Yeah.
About eight days.

Dr. Dean (01:05:26):
So Katie and Kelly, I interviewed on the, I think it
was the last season of thepodcast, their brother died.
And then similarly, I don't knowif you listened to that and

to both of them.
He was also an organ donor.

Dr. Dean (01:05:42):
yes.
And they talk about howdifferent people in their lives
have, have different ways ofthinking about when Josh died.
I'm curious if that's also beenyour experience.
different people in your familythink about that differently.

Yeah, so I actually, I remember after
listening, I forget which one Ihad listened to, that I thought,
Oh, I'm going to ask my familyabout this.
Like what to them is thesignificant day?

Dr. Dean (01:06:11):
hmm.

and I didn't end up doing it.
I don't remember why.
I do know from talking to my momthat, so my mom didn't come to
the hospital until the 16th,until that last day, and so for
her, that's the big day.
That's the day it got, it wasclear, and that's also the day
we chose to take her off lifesupport.

(01:06:32):
So for her, that's the day.
I'm not sure about my dad, I'veheard from a couple of Emily's
friends, that I had called onthe 10th, that for them That's
the day that's crystallized forthem.
but yeah, that is, that is agood point that I, now I'm

(01:06:52):
remembering back to thatconversation that they had with
you.
And I think,

Dr. Dean (01:06:55):
And I think that's unique for the situation in
which you are, the person willdie within a certain period of
time.
Differently than chronicillness, like you know that it's
going to be from an accident orsomething,

Yeah, I think for me, I really crystallized that
the ninth was the day this year

Dr. Dean (01:07:16):
Mm hmm.

leading up to that anniversary, I will say for me
that week before was the worst.
It was almost like once I got tothe day, I felt like Okay, it
happened.
There's no more, the weekleading up was like, this time
last year, this time last year,this was the last this, the last
that,

Dr. Dean (01:07:32):
hmm.

and you know what?
It may, I'm open to the factthat it may change on different,
There's also other random daysthat have some significance to
me, in terms of, this was thelast time we saw each other in
person, Which is gonna, gonna bedifferent for everyone, but but
yeah,

Dr. Dean (01:07:51):
Thank you for that.
Is there anything else youwanted to say before I ask you
about your memories?
All right.
So do you want to share somefavorite, you've already shared
a lot, but are there specificfavorite memories that you would
like to share?

Yeah, so I will say that the video I described
earlier, the, this is not fromChina, that's my favorite, I
actually don't remember thatChristmas, but that's my
favorite kind of video of oursto watch.

Dr. Dean (01:08:22):
Mm

think one of my favorite, memories of us as
adults was there was one year,it was actually after my grandma
had sold her beach house.
And so it was, and it was justEmily and I went to the beach,
we rented a house and it wasjust the two of us.
And there's nothing like not anyone memory from that week that

(01:08:45):
really stands out.
But just a lot of like we madedinner together.
One day it was storming and wejust watch friends all day on
the couch.
And, just that whole week was sonice.
and and then on the ride back,this is my favorite memory of
her.
We were listening, to Wait,Don't Tell Me, which we always

(01:09:06):
listen to together, and they hadsome story about a kookaburra
being on a treadmill, and wewere about to leave the service
plaza to get, we had gone to thebathroom and to go back on the
highway.
And she was laughing so hard.
Everyone will tell you thatEmily could cry laugh with the
best of them like her laughturned into a cry But I actually

(01:09:27):
say okay Emily I'm gonna driveBecause you cannot drive and
listen to wait, don't tell me atthe same time like you and she
just could not stop and I don'tremember what it was about this
puka bear on a treadmill, butthat like pure laughter, I just
that was the best sound and wehave a couple videos that have
it on it and I'm really gratefulfor that And then I think also,

(01:09:51):
When, when we were kids, justsome memories of, I guess we
weren't really kids.
We were in high school, but Ihave this one memory of, I was
our senior yearbook editor andwe weren't, we had to go home
early on a deadline nightbecause of the snow and I was
freaking out about like how wewere going to make this
deadline.
And I don't know where myparents were, but they weren't
home.
And I was.

(01:10:12):
Just so upset I was on the thirdfloor of the house, which is
where emily and I Both had ourbedrooms and Emily brought me up
on a little tray, you know alittle tv tray some pizza salad
and raw cookie dough because weboth loved our raw cookie dough
and we watched er together and Ijust forgot about the yearbook

(01:10:34):
stuff.
and then, so fitting yearslater, we were watching ER
together.
It was the last season, andthat's when we talked about her
wanting to be an organ donor,because there was a storyline
about that.
So, so yeah, those are some ofmy, those are some of my
favorites.
and, Also, my parents will tell,would tell this story.
One year, we were gonna goskiing out west instead of going

(01:10:55):
to Disney World, and Emily madea sign that just said, Disney
World, and held it up like aprotester, and gave him the
silent treatment.
she was, for a while, she wantedto be a lawyer, and she would
have been a good lawyer.
She could argue with the best ofthem.

Dr. Dean (01:11:11):
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing that.
you did share that caring bridgewith me in an email and I did
read, I saw the video of theslow dance and that was so
sweet.
It showed just how caring youwere as a big sister, even when
you were your kids.

Oh,

Dr. Dean (01:11:28):
was warming.
Yeah,

we showed that video actually that last time we
visited with my grandma andgreat aunt We showed that to
them and they also started crylaughing because they just They
were like, you look at you know,she had actually just started
when she was killed adult balletclasses She had gotten back into
ballet.
but yeah, thank you for watchingthat.

(01:11:52):
That means a

Dr. Dean (01:11:52):
Yeah.
thank you for sharing her andfor talking to me today.
So I look forward to staying intouch, especially because you're
local.

Yes, for sure

Dr. Dean (01:12:02):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.

(01:12:24):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.

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