Sibling Loss and Organ Donation: Katie / Josh

Episode Transcript
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Angela (00:12):
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack, a podcast focused
on giving adult survivors ofsibling loss, a platform to
share their stories and to beheard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.

(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.

Dr. Dean (00:37):
In today's episode, I had the pleasure of speaking
with Katie Keene, who lost herbrother, Josh.
Josh was an organ donor, andKatie and her family have
navigated what it's been like toexperience grief differently
from one another.
Take a listen.

Angela (01:00):
Welcome to the show.
I will let you introduceyourself and then we'll go from
there.

Katie Kuehn (01:04):
Sure.
my name is Katie Kuehn, and Iam, the little sister of Josh,
who, I lost about a year and ahalf ago and who we're going to
talk about today.

Dr. Dean (01:15):
Thank you for that.
Before we do talk about losinghim, what would you like us to
know about him?

There are six years in between he and I.
And so growing up, I was verymuch the little sister.
And then as we got older,established a friendship, as
adults and, he's just alwaysbeen the cheerleader, the
supporter, the person who, yourhype man builds you up, gives
you all the credit for all thesuccess and the things that

(01:42):
you're doing.
I actually have, on my wrist,proud of you tattooed in his
handwriting from a card that hehad given me.
And he just was always thatperson to, support and encourage
you.
And, not only Me and my oldersister, but also, others in the
community.
And, he was a big advocate for,people in his community and
clients that he worked with, andwe can get more into that as

(02:04):
well.

Dr. Dean (02:05):
For sure.
so it sounds like yourrelationship was, a good one
overall.
Yeah.
do you want to say more aboutthe relationship?

Yeah.
Kind of a couple things thatstand out.
when I was in kindergarten, mybrother was in sixth grade.
And so we were both at the sameschool.
I had just switched,babysitters.
So this is in the time of halfday kindergarten.
and so my first day ofkindergarten, I was really upset
that after kindergarten, I wouldhave to go to this new
babysitter, because it wasn'tthe same person that had,

(02:33):
watched me since I was born., Itwas a different person.
I just, cried my eyes out the1st day of kindergarten.
I had to call him down.
He was the only 1 who would callme down from 6th grade and, He
wasn't too cool, to do that andto come down and to comfort me,
as, we got older, he continuedto live in the house, after he
graduated from high school andwent to, college and then
switched from college to theworkforce.

(02:54):
He still lived, at the housewith me and my parents.
And even though he was.
Six years older than me.
He was still very much present.
regularly, daily he'd come to,my school plays and performances
and things like that.
and he was very active in,understanding politics and
following the news and, he gotme interested and involved in
that.
We grew up in Iowa.

(03:15):
And as a lot of listenersprobably know, Iowa is a huge
campaign spot, for allpresidential elections and, we
have a silly to some, caucus,situation versus primaries.
And my senior in high school,even though I wasn't old enough
to vote, my brother at the timewas volunteering for a
presidential campaign and Iwould join him and volunteer and

(03:36):
then, volunteered at the caucusand he just got me interested in
politics and how it impacted ourdaily lives.
I think a lot of people look atpolitics as a pie in the sky.
It's somewhere else.
It doesn't affect me.
And so he really helped me tounderstand how, legislation
impacts our daily life.
And continued down thattrajectory.

(03:56):
And it was something that wealways bonded on up until his
death.
honestly, I had, like griefbombs a bit with all of the,
latest news on, on the differentindictments and things like
that.
And just wondering what he wouldhave to say about it.
And, him and I would probablystay up late texting back and
forth watching the newscoverage.
So that was something we shared.

(04:16):
And then, the other place whereI really bonded, I lived out in
Washington, D.
C.
and in Indianapolis for severalyears away from home, and didn't
move home until, I was almost30.
I went to college out of state,all that fun stuff.
And He always just encouraged meto not feel bad about leaving,
about not being, physicallypresent all the time and to just

(04:37):
basically, follow my dreams, dowhat I want to do, always
supported me in that.
and then I moved home, rightaround when I got married and at
the same time that my brotherand sister in law, were placed
with two preemie foster twins.
I got to watch him become a dadand I got to watch, just amazing
father, that he became.
I got to watch them, thenwelcome their son into the

(05:00):
world.
And so they had three babieswithin 11 months of each other,
age and then, about four and ahalf years ago, I had my first
child and, I now have two and hejust, Was so encouraging saying,
it's hard.
It's really hard.
but you've got this you're gonnabe a great mom.
And so we bonded over just beingparents and the everyday

(05:20):
struggles that come with beingparents and the joys that come
with being parents.
And, yeah, we talked prettyconsistently, mostly via text,
but I would say that, more thana few days didn't go by without
us.
touching base with each other.

Dr. Dean (05:35):
Thank you for so much for sharing that.
And you said you have a sister,she's older.

Yes, so my sister is 10 years older than me and
would have been 4 years olderthan my brother.
Yep.
So we had quite kind of aspacing out and I'm also very
close to her.
it's interesting.
I think maybe a lot of siblingsgo through this with age gaps,
but at some point you transitionfrom, the little big
relationship to all beingadults, and developing

(06:00):
friendships outside of that.
You're my little sister, bigsister type of a situation.
And I hit the home run withsiblings.
We all just became really closewith one another.
I guess I should maybe asteriskthat, when I was 18, just
graduated from high school, mydad was in a, almost fatal car
crash and, went through, 3.
5, 4 months of inpatienthospital care before he was able

(06:23):
to come home and, honestly,probably shouldn't have survived
the car accident.
and we're so grateful that hedid.
And we already had a closefamily, but after that really
solidified the need to make surethat we, told each other, we
loved each other and, we're justpresent in each other's, regular
lives and, there to support oneanother.
And so I think that.
Okay.
That also solidified that shiftfrom like big siblings, little

(06:46):
siblings to, those adultfriendships and dealing with
adult struggles together.

Dr. Dean (06:52):
It sounds like for sure that you were able to see
the value of life through thatevent and the value of your
relationships.
Mm-Hmm.
what are you comfortable sharingabout losing Josh?

So it was a sudden, unexpected situation.
It was February 28th, actuallyof 2022.
He and, his wife and kids wereall at home, just getting ready
for their day.
The kids were going to school.
My brother and sister in lawwere getting ready for work.
And he had a seizure.
He did have a seizure disorder,that had developed, several

(07:22):
years after having a benignbrain tumor removed.
And the theory was that some ofthat scar tissue on the brain
may have caused the seizuredisorder to develop.
He had several seizures, priorto this one, usually short in
nature.
and he would recover after, feeltired and his body would hurt
for the next day or two, butusually, recovery came pretty

(07:43):
quickly.
In this situation, the seizurewas still short in nature.
and.
happened as every normal seizurehappened.
And, he just, all of a suddenafter the seizure was over,
stopped breathing.
and something, caused cardiacarrest.
and unfortunately, while theywere able to, revive him that
too much time had lapsed, Forair oxygen to get to his brain.

(08:06):
And so unfortunately, he wasvery quickly not with us
anymore.
and though his body was with us,unfortunately, after that
seizure, he was not.
One of the reasons I actuallyreally wanted to share his story
with you, what had always,chosen to be an organ donor on
his driver's license.
And that was something that, hehad conversations with his,

(08:28):
spouse about as well.
And The seizure happened on aMonday morning and by Monday
afternoon, we unfortunately knewthat, brain activity didn't look
good.
And, by Tuesday, solidified thathe wasn't coming back to us.
and so then, I don't know if itwas Tuesday or Wednesday, but
it's all kind of a blur.
But those conversations didstart with, the donor network,
on, the possibility of himdonating his organs.

(08:50):
and The seizure and hishospitalization was on a Monday,
and then Friday afternoon, hewas able to have the, retrieval
surgery, and then, through thatwas able to donate his heart,
lungs, both kidneys, as well asskin, bone and tissue, and
corneas.

(09:11):
And we said goodbye to him onthat Friday, afternoon at the
hospital.
And, I'm sure that lots ofpeople have seen kind of those
viral videos of the donor walksand, the hospital did that for
us and, really honored him, aswe said goodbye.
And then, we actually went outto the, Regional airport and
watched, as his, heart took offto go to his recipient.

(09:32):
and it was obviously, superdepressing.
but also just, something thatkind of gave us a little glimpse
of hope and every andeverything.
I honestly don't know how Iwould be coping if he weren't an
organ donor.
it's something that has broughta source of comfort, I think,
to, at least some of us in ourfamily, that he chose to do

(09:52):
that.

Dr. Dean (09:53):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's so emotional.
You see those donor walks on,like you said, the viral videos
and then I didn't realize thatyou would.
Be able to watch, where theheart was going

Our, donor family advocate that was there, she was
phenomenal and treated ourfamily with dignity and respect
and just really kept usinformed.
She answered phone calls at allhours of the night if any
questions came up and, My momfelt it was really important
that they find, a placement forhis heart.
That was something that, thatreally, was important to her.
And, they were really strugglingto actually find a match and

(10:27):
they called her, middle of thenight, Thursday night into
Friday morning to say that theyhad found a match.
And they were wonderful and, Andkeeping us updated and allowing
us to be, as much of a presencein the process as possible.
and then, the other kind ofneat.
I don't know if it's neat.
This whole situation isn't neat,but, they had our family, my

(10:49):
sister in law and my sister andI, and my mom all got together
to write it, but they had uswrite it.
a story of who, Josh was, and,that was something that was read
prior to his surgery so that allof the, doctors and the
individuals involved in theprocess would know, the life of
the person, giving their organsand and, they also, took a

(11:09):
playlist so that they couldplay, music in the operating
room as well, that Josh liked.
They did a lot for us to try to,honor Josh, honor our family.
Allow us to be as involved inthe process as possible.
on, the crappiest day, I thinkfor all of us,

Dr. Dean (11:26):
Yeah.
What was that like having to saygoodbye to him that Friday?

It was so surreal.
Honestly, there's times I stillthink about it and I'm like, is
this real life?
did that really happen?
It was really tough because,some kind of dark humor, here,
but my sister and I have dubbedthe week that he passed away as
like dead brother week, becausea lot of people have a date of
death.
and it was a week long of he wasthere, but he wasn't there.

(11:56):
And, and what do you really evendefine as like.
When he was gone and when yousaid goodbye and all of that.
And so all of us in our familyhave a different answer to that
question.
and so we all just buckle up andprepare for that week.
and we said goodbye.
his closest family and friends,that could make it came up

(12:16):
before, and say goodbye.
We're allowed to break all ofthe COVID rules, and had, I want
to see 15 people, for the honorwalk that we're able to come and
attend.
Again, it's just so surreal you,you walk to this elevator and
you're forced to say goodbye asthey will them into this
elevator.
And, it's something I'll neverforget and, My sister in law

(12:38):
lost her husband and the fatherof her kids.
My parents lost their son.
My sister and I lost ourbrother.
People lost their good friend.
So it was really surreal to bestanding in the same space with
all of these people that lovedhim.
And, to realize the impact ofhis relationship on all of us.
and that, that was ending.

(13:00):
and it was really hard.
And then it was even harder toleave the hospital, because that
kind of really, solidified, weweren't coming back to the
hospital.
and that, that was it.
It was really rough.
I was also at the time, 36 and ahalf, 37 weeks pregnant, with my
second child.
And that added to, all of it.
My husband and I just decidedthat during that week to, rent

(13:22):
an Airbnb, um, that.
my family and my sister's familystayed at because we were from
out of town and we just allowedit to be a pass through place
for people that were coming intown, family and friends to stop
by.
We had a bunch of food and abunch of things and, So we just
all went, went back there thatevening and, and prepared for,

(13:43):
what was next and, figuring outservices.
And, it was really weird to, Iwas writing an obituary for him
on a Wednesday when he wasn'teven gone.
We were coordinating to go fundme to try to help my sister in
law with expenses, before hehad, officially, left us.
And so it was just, it was areally weird, week, and I feel

(14:03):
incredibly fortunate that familythat I have is close and that we
were able to, work together tofigure out what came next.
My, parents are, devoutCatholics.
My sister in law, I would say,would, prior to my brother's
death, would classify herself asan atheist.
my brother was spiritual, notreligious.

(14:25):
And there were quite a fewdifferent, maybe needs or
desires.
on how to honor him, saygoodbye.
and, one thing I am very proudof our family is just figuring
out how do we make that work foreveryone.
And so my parent's priest wasinvolved, and my brother's good
friend who is a pastor wasinvolved.

(14:47):
And, there was a mix of,storytelling.
And His services were a littleunusual and that we did the
services 1st, there was some.
Religious tradition at thebeginning of the service.
and then my brother's friendDoug, a former pastor got up and
said a prayer, did some storiesand then My sister and I spoke,
my sister in law spoke, mybrother's best friend spoke, and

(15:08):
then, he opened it up toeverybody at the funeral, and
people just lined up and cameand shared stories and some that
we had never heard before and,and then afterwards we went
straight into a visitation, sothat we could see all of the
people that had attended and Hisvisitation was four hours long
and the last person came throughthe line about 10 minutes before

(15:28):
it was over.
it was, I would say like I'vesaid to my husband before,
that's the kind of celebration Iwould want, where you just open
it up and let people talk andshare memories and stories and
celebration.
and it was, I think my parentsgot what they needed from a
religious standpoint, and then Igot to learn things about my
brother.
I had never known that day.

(15:49):
and hear stories from highschool friends that were silly
and, ways that he impactedstudents at the school he worked
for, that I would have neverheard.
that was really special.
part of saying goodbye.

Dr. Dean (16:01):
Did you write any of those stories down?
The one ones you hadn't heard?

we haven't, I actually, I had this like wild
hair and I have not done a goodjob of, Of following up, but I
had a friend of ours create likea gmail account that people
could if they wanted to write inand share stories and the goal
there is to have stories to giveto his kids as they get older.

(16:25):
I did a lot at the beginning,Both out of, I think, Needing an
outlet needing to stay busy, butalso just the focus was really
to help Sarah and my brother'skids figure out what was next
and just get through the day today.
And so my husband and I opened ajoint bank account with my

(16:46):
sister in law to help her managefinances and figure out bills
and to do as much as we could tomake sure that they had a secure
financial future.
And, really just, immerse myselfin a lot of different things,
and that is one that I came upwith in that time that I haven't
really, followed up on, butit's, it is one that I would

(17:07):
love to continue to encouragepeople to write into that email
address.

Dr. Dean (17:13):
hmm.

and I'd love to, some of them will not be
appropriate for the age of hischildren yet.
Um,

Dr. Dean (17:17):
Mm hmm.
Mm

I would love to have those as they grow older
and can see how silly, their dadcould be.

Dr. Dean (17:23):
Did it help you remember things that you had
forgotten?

Yeah, it did.
His best friend is the same kindof inappropriate, humor type of
a guy that my brother was.
And We would get the kids to bedat my sister in law's house and
then, a lot of times just sitthere and, tell stories and his
friend Roy, in his veryinappropriate nature would have
us all crying, laughing.
and my sister and I rememberedin some of his wilder days,

(17:50):
picking him up at four in themorning from Ross's, which
doesn't even exist anymore, butit was like a 24 hour diner
under the bridge in our hometownand, him reeking of cigarettes.
Cause back then you could stillsmoke in restaurants and bars
and, Picking him up and beinglike, we have to go see grandma
who was in the hospital likethat next morning.
And, um, just some silly thingslike that.

(18:12):
he and my sister moved me intocollege because my dad was in
the hospital at that time.
And so just remembering how theykind of became my parents in
those early days and,Remembering that when he started
dating, Sarah, my sister in law,she's actually my age.
And so I would give him a lot ofgrief that he was, dating

(18:32):
someone that was his littlesister's age.
And yeah, I think, and I knowwe'll probably talk a little bit
more about like coping and allof that, but I think one of the
things that as time has gone onand I've talked to my therapist
a lot about is, so much of mylife feels defined by his death,

(18:55):
like very much a

Dr. Dean (18:55):
before

and after.
So much about, what I think ofhim as is based on his death and
1 thing that, I've been tryingto work on is he had 41 years of
life.
34 of those I shared with him,before he passed away.
It feels good to talk aboutthose memories and to bring up
things that aren't his deathbecause that isn't what defined

(19:17):
his entire life.
And I think that's one of my andmaybe you can relate,
frustrations.
people are afraid to maybe askabout your sibling that passed
away or they don't want to bringit up.
And I welcome it.
Honestly, I wish that peoplewould bring it up or, if they
think of a funny story, send itto me.

(19:39):
I know he's dead.
That's not going to change, butif you have something that you
remembered that you did in highschool with him that I don't
know about, I would love for youto tell me.
isn't going to change the factthat I, I know he's dead.

Dr. Dean (19:53):
Right.
And I think that some people areafraid to bring that up because
they don't want to upset us,

I think you're right.

Dr. Dean (19:59):
but the freedom of being able to talk about our
siblings helps us stay connectedto all of that before.
instead of focusing on thedeath.
And I also wonder if sometimespeople don't bring it up because
they're afraid of feelinguncomfortable themselves.

Just generally, I think our society is and I don't
know where it comes from, justso scared of talking about
death, talking about loss, and Ithink even more than that,
talking about how grief is not afinite thing, and that, there's
just this expectation that lifegets back to normal after a

(20:39):
little while, right?
And, I am not who I was, when mybrother was here and I never
will be like, I will never bethe person that I was, before my
brother passed away.
And, that's just another exampleof, something secondary to work
through.

Dr. Dean (20:56):
Yeah, for sure.
Part of where our fear of deathcomes in our society is that,
prior to the industrialrevolution, death was a very
present thing.
You died in the home, or you...
people saw it, and now just likeyour brother, a lot of death
doesn't happen or people aren'tseeing it.
So it's something that we'renot, so familiar with.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And, Take it or leave it fromliving in a very, hyper focused,
capitalistic nation.
But there's just that drivethat, we got to get back to
doing what we need to do andgetting back to working and
providing for your family and,and all of that.
I think.
In the States, especially feelsmaybe a little bit more of a

(21:42):
rushed timeline, maybe than inother places.

Dr. Dean (21:46):
Mm-Hmm.

Technically, I was supposed to get three days off
for my brother's death.
Um, very fortunate to have,flexible time off at my company
and to have a boss who's veryunderstanding, and to have had a
baby, and to be able to, I had12 weeks off with my son, after
he was born.
And so I went back to work forone day before my son was born,

(22:10):
and then had 12 weeks.
And I honestly look back and I'mlike, I don't know how I would
have gone back to work, fulltime without that additional
time off.
And that just is how thetimeline fell.

Dr. Dean (22:21):
So there you are, grieving and also welcoming a
new life.
What was that like for you?

Oh, a whirlwind of emotions for sure.
it still brings up so manyemotions.
My son, Declan, was born, onMarch 17th, and that was, three
short weeks after my brotherpassed away.
My husband and I had beenstruggling to figure out a
middle name for a very longtime, had thrown out a couple
different ideas, but justweren't set on any of them, and

(22:52):
I can still, remember walkingout of the elevator in the
hospital towards my brother'sroom with Sarah, my sister in
law, and just saying, is itokay?
With you, if Declan's middlename is Joshua, and having to
hold her up from falling to theground and her being grateful
that's something I wanted to do.

(23:14):
And, I asked my mom and shesaid, I was really hoping that's
what you would do.
But I didn't want to put it inyour head.
That's something that you shoulddo.
and so he is Declan Joshua.
He is a total spitfire.
and sometimes I'm like, thiswould be your personality named
after my brother.
He was born on my brother'sfavorite holiday, St.

(23:34):
Patrick's Day.

Dr. Dean (23:35):
Hmm.
Mm

and has, strawberry blonde hair and my brother had a
very red beard.
And so I'd like to think thatmaybe my brother had a little
bit of a hand in, his arrivalwhen it happened, and maybe a
little bit of that red tint tohis hair.
but yeah, it was a reallyemotional time because it was
something my brother was reallyexcited for us to have another,

(23:57):
child.
I still struggle with the factthat they never existed in the
same world.
And that, my brother never gotto meet him, because he was just
so excited for us.
He loved the name Declan.
I'm glad that we shared thatwith our family before, he
passed away, what we were goingto name him and, it was this mix
of, you have to care, 24 sevenfor a newborn.

(24:19):
It was a mix of, distraction.
yeah.
joy because it's this thing thatyou were so excited to bring
into the world, getting to watchmy older son, Rowan, fall in
love with his little brother,and to just wish for them to
have that sibling bond that Ishared with my siblings.
So it was just an array ofemotions.
I think in many ways, Declan wasa bright spot.

(24:41):
for our family, I think, mysister in law will openly say,
he's my favorite, because Ithink, just him coming in to the
world at the time that he did,brought some joyful distraction
to all of us.
and yeah, I definitely thinkthat there was some joy.
It also felt like a lot ofpressure to put on a tiny little
baby, to bring, joy and hopeand, and to try to fill that

(25:05):
sadness felt like a big role toput on such a small child and
still feels a little bit likethat at times where I struggle
with, I never want him to feellike he has to live up to some
certain expectation,

Dr. Dean (25:17):
Right.

or be, you

Dr. Dean (25:23):
Yeah.

know like a replacement.
And but he's a special littleboy and he, he's gonna be a wild
one.
And my brother had, a streak ofmaybe not wanting to listen to
authority and not

Dr. Dean (25:35):
necessarily

Mm hmm.Um, uh, buying into all the rules and
things like that.
And I'm just buckling up for,that potential that he's going
to take after his uncle

Dr. Dean (25:45):
Yeah.
Can we go back to something thatyou said earlier?
So you described the scene whereyou're saying goodbye to him at
the elevator and realizing thateach of your family members had
been impacted by Joshdifferently.
And I think it's important, toexplore the idea that not only

(26:07):
are we impacted by someonedifferently, but that also means
that we grieve them differently.
And I wonder what that's beenlike for you or what your
thoughts are around that.

You're absolutely right.
I think, we've all developeddifferent ways of grieving.
I think, Initially, and this isnot a reflection of my sister in
law at all.
initially, I felt as though, Ineeded to put my grief aside
because, the important thingwas, how do we get my sister in
law, Sarah, and the kids,through each day?

(26:38):
How do we help them navigatetheir grief?
How do we help them navigate,having two, two five year olds
and a four year old realizethat, their dad isn't coming
home, how do we help Sarahbecome a solo parent.
You had two people splitting allof these responsibilities and
suddenly it all Is on you.

(26:59):
My brother understood all thefinances and all of that.
So that was something that Itook on as far as my sister in
law didn't know who held themortgage, and so figuring out
who is that mortgage company.
We need to pay the bill.
Like, how do we get thisswitched from his bank account
to her bank account and all ofthe kind of the nitty gritty.
And so I didn't really.
Even start processing my griefbetween raising a newborn and

(27:23):
trying to help, Sarah and thekids navigate just the day to
day.
I didn't allow myself to evenreally grieve, other than there
would be times where, when myhusband was on his paternity
leave, I would just stay in bedfor as long as possible and just
not have to deal with anything.
and those were the only times Ireally allowed myself those

(27:44):
pockets of I'm going to feel formyself and feel that emptiness
and that sadness.
I think that is.
the general consensus I wouldsay for my sister and my mom as
well.
My dad's a different storybecause he doesn't like to talk
about his grief, how he'sfeeling.
Sometimes just talking aboutJosh, he has to step away.

(28:06):
He's just handled it completelydifferent.
My mom and my sister and I alljumped into action a bit.
and tried to figure out, how wecould just help the kids, help
my sister in law and, my mom.
also was always that person thatwe would go to for problems.
So if we were all like bickeringas siblings, if like my brother
and I were mad at my sister ormy sister and I were mad at my

(28:28):
brother or whatever it would be,she would get calls from all
three of us and she would haveto just navigate our problems
and helping us work throughwhatever little tiffs we were
having.
So she felt like she always hadto be the strong one.
She always had to be the person.
To take on everybody else's,struggles and that kind of
corresponded into a conversationthat her and I had probably

(28:50):
almost a year after we lost mybrother and, I quite honestly
don't even remember exactly whatthe conversation was about, but
she made the comment of I'm notallowed to have an opinion.
I just need to like, be there.
and I was like, why would yousay that?
She's that's just always howit's been.
And I said, but is that the roleyou want?
is that?
the role you want here, or doyou want to share your opinion?

(29:12):
Do you want to have a say in, inwhatever it was that we were
talking about?
And, she had never, I don'tthink thought that was something
that she could allow to happen,for her to actually open up and
talk about her own grief andnavigate her own grief.
So all of us have had differentways of navigating it.
I had a therapist prior to, mybrother passing away, for
anxiety related situations,especially, it got worse when I

(29:36):
was pregnant.
So I went back to see atherapist when I was pregnant.
and then, my sister in law wasin school at the time to become
a therapist and to be a socialworker.
She actually, I think, withinthe first month of my brother
passing away, had givenreferrals to 11 different people
for therapists, and my sister,got signed up with a therapist.
My mom has attended a coupledifferent grief groups, that her

(29:59):
church has put on, and she'sdeveloped some friendships with
other women who have lostchildren there, that I think has
been really healthy for her.
My dad went to therapy, for avery short period of time.
and I think felt like, that wasall he needed.
I would argue differently, butwe are all on our own journeys
and timelines.
And I try to not force anything,upon him, but.

(30:20):
I do think that, for him, it'seasier for him to not talk and
acknowledge it.
The other thing that's been aninteresting, kind of development
and ride is, how all of us havecome to either embrace or not
embrace, the organ donation,part of his story.
So for me, I very early, on gotinvolved with the Iowa donor

(30:44):
network who, supported us,during the process.
I've done some.
There's a walk every year, for afundraiser.
And I put together a team, rightafter he passed away.
It was the walk was in May.
I put together a team forfundraising and we did that
again this year.
and my mom and my sister havealso both gotten more involved
as volunteers.

(31:06):
But that is still a source oftrauma for my sister in law
actually.
And so it's something that just,does more harm than good for
her, to do that.
But one thing that I've alwaysbeen so grateful for is that my
sister in law has always said,there's no hierarchy in grief.
There's no one person's grief istougher, better, or worse than

(31:26):
another person.
And, one person's.
Way of finding comfort isdifferent than another.
And, I've many times asked herfor permission to do things in
honor of Josh or to get involvedwith the Iowa donor network.
I asked her for permission tocome on this podcast.
and she's never expected that.
It's just, I want to respecteverybody else's, grief and how

(31:49):
they're handling it and, herresponse about this podcast is I
don't have to listen to it ifit's not for me.
if it's not something that isgoing to bring me comfort or
joy, then I don't have to listento it.
But if it's something that youfeel is a platform to share
about your brother, aboutsibling grief, just I think that
you should do it because I thinkit could be healing for you.

(32:12):
And I think it could be healingfor others.
And, she's never been.
never tried to hold any of usback from whatever way feels the
healthiest for us.

Dr. Dean (32:22):
Right.
And I think that's an extremelyimportant point that you made
through her, that there is nohierarchy in grief.
It's just different.
And I think, where sibling griefis not acknowledged, it doesn't
mean that it's harder.
It just means that it's notacknowledged.
And that's why we're talkingabout this.

absolutely.
And I think I still have toremind myself, honestly, that my
grief is valid.
Why wouldn't I be mourningsomeone who literally had been
in my life from the beginning?
I think there's so many timesand again, it's a different,
it's not a hierarchy, but, it'show are your parents doing or
how are Sarah and the kidsdoing?

(33:03):
And those are absolutely validquestions to ask.
And I appreciate those questionsbecause that means that you've
been thinking of my family.
but it's, it's not necessarily.
Thought of at how impactfullosing a

Dr. Dean (33:18):
Mm hmm.
a

sibling really is.

Dr. Dean (33:21):
Yeah.

and so that's something that, I found your
podcast when I was, trying tofind resources, to, does anybody
get what I'm dealing with?
Does anybody understand justthis like deep, immense sadness,
that I feel, Not being able toshare my life with my brother
anymore.
and finding this podcast wasreally helpful just to be able

(33:44):
to hear others that have dealtwith it because it's not a
common, maybe it is a commonloss.
It doesn't feel like a commonloss.
It doesn't feel like it'shappened to anyone else.

Dr. Dean (33:56):
hmm.

And so hearing others speak on your podcast
about what they've gone throughand the complex feelings of
sibling grief, really makes youfeel less alone.

Dr. Dean (34:08):
Yeah.
thank you for that feedback.
I'm so glad that it's beenvalidating and helpful in that
way.
I sought out doing this for thatsame reason.
There wasn't a lot there.
And so I'm glad.
Thank you for that.
So you put off your grief.
It sounds like partly becauseyou had a newborn, partly
because you were taking care ofSarah.

(34:29):
Where are you with your griefnow?
Or coping with it?
And grief's, never ending, butwhere are you?

I am, dealing with it, I would say now.
I would.
argue that it took me probablyat least nine months before I
really, dove into actuallydealing with my grief.
The therapist that I saw aftermy brother passed away, it felt
like my one hour weekly sessionswith her were more of just a

(34:58):
dump of this is what's going onwith figuring out, how to get
the kids registered for summerschool, or this is what's going
on with.
We were trying to sell the houseand get them into a different
house.
It was a data dump and it waslike the one hour I had a week
to cry about it.
And then it was like, back tobusiness, Back to, work back to
family, back to helping, Sarahin whatever ways I could and, my

(35:23):
therapist actually ended upmoving out of state and I had to
find a new therapist.
and it's dating, right?
I'm finding a therapist a littlebit.
and I didn't realize, maybe whatI was missing in therapy until I
had moved to my new therapist.
And, a lot of, It was a lot moreconversational versus me just
dumping

Dr. Dean (35:42):
Mm

the latest update, right?
That you would give yourgirlfriend at a happy hour or
whatever.
and so it was a lot moreconversational and, there's some
kind of accountability therethat I hadn't had before as far
as, you.
need to focus on yourself.
You need to do things to workthrough your own grief for the
benefit of yourself and your ownfamily that you have.

(36:03):
And helping me to see that mybest self is my best self for my
husband, for my kids, figuringout, how to navigate that grief.
And then also, helping me havepermission to sit with it
sometimes- to not try to,distract myself or, move past
it, but to really just sit withit and to be okay with feeling

(36:28):
really sad.
and allowing myself to feelsorry for myself, allowing
myself to be angry, at thesituation, allowing some of
those feelings of, frustrationat family as we navigate this,
because we're navigating whatour roles look like as a family.
My sister in law, Sarah, Iconsider her to be, as close to

(36:49):
a sibling as you can get,without growing up with one
another, and so navigating, shecalls my parents, mom and dad,
she's, she lost her parents at ayoung age, and, she really, from
the time that she started datingmy brother, became part of our
family.
Navigating what does that looklike for the future for her and
our relationship and therelationship with our children?

(37:13):
and the idea that, there, theremay be another person that comes
into her life and to thechildren's lives and, navigating
what does the future hold forall of us as a family?
My therapist has been reallyhelpful in focusing in on, the
now and the, we will cross thosebridges when they come and we

(37:33):
will, let's focus on thepresent.
And what, how can work throughyour grief and, still be the mom
you need to be, and all of thosethings.
I go through waves.
I think, grief is an incredible,companion, I guess you would
say, in the sense that sometimesit makes itself very well known.
My nephew turned six at thebeginning of this month, and it

(37:56):
was also my dad's seventy-firstbirthday and everybody came to
my town and we went to the waterpark and I hosted brunch at our
house to celebrate birthdays.
It was incredibly joyful and wehad such a fun time And then I
felt like a total asshole aftereverybody left because I was
like I enjoyed all of us beingtogether and Josh wasn't there,

(38:20):
so I shouldn't be enjoying it.
I should, I should be sad thathe's not here, right?
and so there was that, it's thatwave of, the after effects of,
and it seems like it's apattern, and whenever we get
together with the family, it'sreally wonderful, and then
afterwards, it's like that, butJosh wasn't there, and it's
painfully obvious that he wasn'tthere.

Dr. Dean (38:39):
There's this guilt for living your life afterwards.
Yeah.
I'm hoping that you have workedthrough that with your

Yes, that is a,

Dr. Dean (38:47):
therapy on the air here.

yeah, no, that is a topic that comes up often and a
topic that she reminds me that,there's, righteous guilt.
There's things that we made anerror or we made a wrong choice
or we hurt someone.
And maybe there's reasons tofeel guilty, but this isn't a
righteous guilt.
This isn't something that, ThatI should feel guilty for.
And so it's, I grew up Catholic.

(39:10):
it's a thing

Dr. Dean (39:10):
Yeah.

just is embedded in us, a bit.
And

Dr. Dean (39:13):
Yes, it is.

yeah, still working through some of that.
but yeah, it's been, this monthhas been hard.
I've had a hard time.
My youngest has been goingthrough, some health stuff and
he's fine, but it's been a lotof doctor's appointments and,
some added stress and, That'sstuff that I'd usually, talk to
my brother about, right?
And between him missing Sawyer,his son's birthday, his twin

(39:36):
girl's birthdays are coming up,next month.
There are times where just feelit more.
Um, and this month has just beenone of those months.
and I.
allow myself to go take a bathand, after the kids go to bed
and, try to just either read abook or do whatever I need to do
to center myself and I allowmyself to cry if I need to cry

(39:58):
and, I think the further awayand I know you have more
experience and time, passing,but I think the further away I
get from his passing, the more,I'm looking for things to cling
to, to feel close to him.
And I think lately it's beenhard to find that.
And That's just something youwork through, right?

(40:19):
figuring out how do you continueto, feel that connection.
And, one of the, one of thethings that I was looking
forward to the podcast for is tojust be able to talk about him,
and to feel connected again.
and so this comes at a goodtime.

Dr. Dean (40:32):
Yeah.
Are there ways that you find aresteadfast in helping you feel
connected?
Because I think it is importantto find ways to have that
connection

Um, I really, enjoy, anytime I'm able to
connect with the Iowa DonorNetwork.
that's been something for methat has felt meaningful and
significant.
It's something that, a lot ofthe folks that work there, have
their own, personal connectionswith donation, whether it is, a
family member of a recipient ora donor.

(41:03):
and it's just, there's no shamein any sort of grief or crying.
Everything's just out in theopen.
I can, in one breath, talk abouthow, my brother could be a total
asshole about this and then inanother breath, I could say, I'm
really sad that he's missing hiskid's birthday.
And it's just, there's just anopen acceptance to talk about

(41:25):
your deceased sibling there.
And so I think, or your deceasedloved one in general.
So I think anytime I'm connectedwith them, anytime I'm
volunteering with them or tryingto do fundraising work for them,
I feel that connection and that,I know that's what he wanted to
do.
and I hate that I now know whatit's like to go through organ

(41:46):
donation and that process and tobe a part of that club.
But at the same time, there isthat connection with people that
have gone through somethingsimilar.
And there's just that opennessof you've gone through something
hard and feel free to talk aboutit.
and I think that's somethingthat I crave a lot is: Feeling
like I can talk about it and beopen about it without like
totally being a buzz kill.

(42:07):
And so I think being open withthem.
It's nice because there's nojudgment.
There's no expectation thatyou're not going to be open.
I even struggle just sometimes,like I'm going to happy hour
this evening with somegirlfriends that I haven't seen
in months and I can't wait tosee them and, they want to know
what the heck I'm going to be ona podcast for tonight I haven't

(42:28):
really totally filled them inyet, but it's also that do you
talk about it?
Do you not talk about it?
I don't want to like totallyruin the mood.
Everybody else has things inlife that they're going through
too.
That permission to talk abouthim is, I think, something that
I long for that, and I know thatif I talk about some of it is on
me, some of it is internalizedthat, I've known these girls

(42:50):
most of my life.
They grew up with my brother.
some of it is internalized of Idon't want to like be a buzzkill
and ruin the night.
but I do think one thing that Iwould.
love as far as continued supportis for people to just come out
and say,"Anytime you're feelinglike you miss your brother and
you want to talk about it, youknow you can talk to me about
it."

Dr. Dean (43:09):
I had a pin on my bag for a while that said, ask me
about my sibling.
For that reason,

Oh, I love

Dr. Dean (43:14):
okay to ask, right?
Yeah,

Yeah.
It is okay to ask.
okay.

Dr. Dean (43:20):
I have recently connected with someone, involved
in the organ donor network.
And I was impressed to learnjust how much they support
grieving donor families.
And so I'm glad to hear thatfrom you as well.
Did you meet the recipientfamilies at all?

We have not, One of the cornea recipients, very
early on reached out to ourfamily, in a letter.
He had a, congenital eyedisorder of some sort.
It was, a familial situation,his dad had it that type of
situation and he had lost hissight.
And so he, very early on reachedout and thanked us for that gift

(43:58):
of sight that he got a site backto be able to, see and interact
with his son.
And, that came.
Within two weeks of my brotherpassing away, and very grateful
that was something that, hechose to do, the donor network
does give you, just a quicksnapshot of this, the heart went
to somebody and it's up to therecipients to say, What they

(44:20):
want to say, but, the heartrecipient went to somebody who
has a wife and 2 young kids.
The, 1 of the kidney recipientswas a father of 5 and a U.
S.
veteran who had been on dialysisfor 3 years.
So you get little snippets.
and then after 2 years, we willget an update of here is how
many people he's impacted withbone and tissue and skin and all

(44:41):
of that.
Six months after my brotherpassed away, I did write a
letter, to his, heart recipient.
and that's something that thedonor networks facilitate, so
that it's anonymous.
wrote them a letter, just totell them a bit about Josh and
our family.
And right before Thanksgiving,we actually did get, get a
letter back from them.
and it was, incrediblyemotional, I think for all of

(45:02):
us.
I think, from getting to know afew of the, employees at the
Iowa donor network who are onthe recipient family end of it,
they had expressed if you don'thear back, know that, it is
appreciated, but it's reallyhard to even figure out how to
say thank you for something likethis.
When we heard back from hisrecipient, it was it.

(45:24):
I couldn't have written a betterletter.
It was so just gracious andloving and kind.
and we learned a little bit,about them and about their
family and, just that promisethat they were going to honor
Josh, and live their life and,loving on their family and their
kids.
And, it was really impactful, Ithink, for all of us.

Dr. Dean (45:43):
mm,

We've since written back.
We haven't heard anything back.
But again, it's like everybody'son their own timelines.
We do on on our side of thingshave the desire that if a
recipient did want to meet usthat we would be open to that.
But that's just something thattime will tell.
We also just recently received aletter, which I never thought

(46:04):
would happen from somebody whoreceived tissue for an MCL
reconstruction.
and they wrote just a reallykind letter about, they had,
lost somebody close to them andhad been really struggling with
grief and depression and theystarted volunteering on their
local fire department.
And it brought this sense of joyand service to them.

(46:25):
And when they hurt their knee,obviously, they weren't able to
continue that service, and that,while a tissue donation isn't a
life saving donation, in itsphysical form, that they thanked
us because it was a life saving,donation for their life and
impacted them in such a way, andThose continue to just be

(46:46):
reminders of that ripple effect,of that impact that my brother
continues to have and, It'scrazy to think that like his
physical heart is literallykeeping someone else alive is
beating in someone else's chest.
And it's just a testament to whohe was.
And he was very giving in life.
he worked with, and those withdisabilities, doing respite care

(47:10):
for most of his career.
And, he just showed so much loveand kindness and compassion.
He would throw dances for hisclients, once a year with his
own equipment and rent out a sothey could have some fun.
He, had a client who waswrongfully convicted and wasn't
able to go on to, a governmentproperty where his grandfather
was buried and he wasn't able tovisit his grandfather's grave.

(47:32):
And Heller, come HellerHighwater, my brother was going
to get him.

Dr. Dean (47:37):
mm,

to see his grandfather and he did, and, he
advocated for, he was involvedin harm reduction efforts in his
town and, educated people onNarcan and, all of that stuff.
He trained some of our locallegislators on the use of
Narcan.
He volunteered for politicalcampaigns and it was all about,
service to others.

(47:59):
It wasn't flashy.
It wasn't shiny.
It was how can I, impact theleast of those who don't have a
voice who aren't lifted up.
And, yeah, he just, he wasalways an advocate and pushed to
help others and then obviously,in his death, he was able to do
that as well.
I have to try to, give myselfthat pep talk sometimes and
remind myself that even thoughhe's not here, the impact that

(48:23):
he had on others is still verymuch here.

Dr. Dean (48:26):
It sounds like he was very compassionate and loving
and caring, and I wonder how youcan carry that forward and see
that he cared for you as well.
Like your grief is valid, too,and That impact

yeah, it's actually something I hadn't really
thought of before.
as you say that as far as I'malways thinking about, the
impact that.
He had on the world.
but maybe I haven't given himenough credit for how much
impact he had on my life.
and maybe that's an avenue, agood avenue to focus on as with
grief as far as just how much hedid impact.

(49:01):
A lot of what I did I followedmy dreams and, he was the one
that was local with my parentsand always took on those
responsibilities of making surethat if the snow needed
shoveled, that they had aservice set up or, he'd go out
and do it or he'd go help my dadwith the host of, Computer and
internet connection problems andall of those things that come

(49:22):
up.
There was never any sort of,jealousy or any sort of, never
made me feel guilty that he wastaking that on, and taking on
those responsibilities of beinglocal, and doing those things.
he always, wanted me to do whatI was doing.
And he always told me how muchof an impact I was making on
other people and on the worldand the job that I had in my

(49:44):
twenties.
And, he was incredibly, humbleto the point of being, Self-
deprecating like he never reallygave himself credit.
He was just a guy that, it tookhim until he was 39 to finish
college.
And, didn't do anything flashyor fancy.
And, he never gave himself thecredit.
that he deserved, to givehimself, for the impact that he

(50:05):
had on people.

Dr. Dean (50:07):
Yeah.
It sounds like you're able tosee that impact and honor him
for that now.

Yeah.
And whether I've seen a coupleof mediums since he's passed
away and, whether you believe inthat whole thing or not, one of
the mediums did say that, he wasable to, view his celebration of
life and, to start to accept thefact that he did have an impact
on others.
In a way that he did not inlife.

(50:34):
So I'd like to think that he hasin whatever spiritual sense,
recognized the good that he didin this world.

Dr. Dean (50:41):
This, theme of medium has come up in many recent
interviews I've done, so I'm notsure what to make of that.
but I think it's fascinating.
So are there things that youwould like people to know about
sibling loss specifically thatyou wish you knew a year and a
half ago?

I think, yes, I think bigger picture from grief
in general, I would like.
People to know that when you arefirst grieving, you have no idea
what you even need.
and if you ask me what I need,I'm probably not going to ask
you for anything.
because I just don't know.

(51:17):
had two really good friends,that really stepped up and were
there for me and have continuedto be there for me through my
grief journey.
And one of them, my brother wasin the hospital and subsequently
for weeks after, he passed away,would text me about halfway
through the day.
Have you eaten today?
Are you drinking enough water?
And for the first.

(51:37):
Couple of weeks until shereminded me to eat.
I wasn't eating.
I didn't here.
I am, carrying a, an almostbaked kid and I'm not even
eating because I'm not eventhinking about it.
And so it was like some of thesimplest things of you need to
eat, you need to take a breakand drink some water and those
simple things in life that youwouldn't think you'd forget

(51:59):
about that.
In your grief, you're forgettingabout.
and so I think big picture.
I wish and I wish I would haveknown, in supporting friends
that have went through, arelationship, a loss of a, of a
boyfriend, a loss of a parent,those type of things that I just
had no idea how your wholeidentity is impacted by grief

(52:21):
and how your life as a whole andeverything you do, you're
carrying that with you.
There's just an undertone.
That's always there.
And I just felt like I lookingback was not adequately
supportive of those peoplebecause I didn't know what it
was like.
For me in those early days,doing instead of asking or

(52:44):
saying, or giving optionssaying, hey, do you have
laundry?
I can help with or can I walkyour dogs or, have you eaten
dinner?
I'd love to send you something,Those simple things.
and then just, I think thebiggest thing I struggle with is
just my brother isn't physicallyhere anymore, but just because
he's not physically here doesnot mean that relationship

(53:05):
didn't exist in my life.
And that it isn't a part of whatmade me who I am.
And so I just feel like it'swhat we talked about at the
beginning.
Just talk about him.
Ask me about how I'm doing.
Ask me about my brother.
if you hear a song on the radiothat for some reason sparks.

(53:26):
I'm thinking of you, text methat.

Dr. Dean (53:28):
Mm-Hmm.

it's amazing just what those little nuggets, they
can make such an impact, to knowthat someone's acknowledging
that hole in your life stillexists and it wasn't, they
passed away, you figured out howto fill it and you've moved on,
that is something that willremain and you're figuring out
how to move forward in spite ofit.

(53:51):
and so for me, I think the onething I would want people to
know about sibling loss isregardless of if you have a
sibling or you have a goodrelationship or a bad
relationship, like they werethere for so many landmark
events in your life.
first communion plays, The firsttime you thought your parents
were going to get a divorce, myparents have been married almost

(54:12):
50 years and all of us wentthrough a time where we're like,
Oh, my God, I think mom and dadare getting divorced.
There's all these differentthings- little things and big
things that you experiencetogether.
And you assume that you're goingto continue to experience those
things together.
And just.
Acknowledging that's hard,that's not fair, that it's, just
acknowledging that gap existsand not being afraid to ask

(54:36):
about it, is what I wish I gotmore of.

Dr. Dean (54:40):
for sure.

One thing we haven't talked a ton about is,
my relationship with my oldersister, Kelly, throughout this
process.
Obviously, she is also grieving,the loss of what is her little
brother and my big brother, andwe're all grieving that hole in
our family is, We moved throughall of this and, we were close
before, but we've continued toforge a bond, through our grief.

(55:03):
and one of the things that herand I, as well as my sister in
law, Sarah, honestly have had tonavigate is, how do you support
and walk alongside each otherwhen you're all in the grieving
process?
and we have taken to a lot oftimes, We have a group chat on
Snapchat, and a lot of timeswe've taken to texting and

(55:23):
saying I'm putting something in,in Snapchat, don't listen unless
you have the capacity, right?
I need to get it out there, Ineed to share my grief moment
about missing Josh, but ifyou're not in a place to receive
it, you don't have to, andThat's something I think is
still a work in progress.
I think it's really hard whenboth of us are, maybe riding the
same grief wave.
We're both, struggling at thesame time, because you want to

(55:46):
lean on.
Your sibling, because that'swhat we've always done, right?
Is you lean on your friends who,and I'm lucky enough that both
of my siblings have beenfriends.
And we have definitely had tonavigate over the last year and
a half, how to support eachother in grief while also
respecting where we areourselves.

Dr. Dean (56:07):
Thank you for that.
And we're going to hear from herlater in the season

I'll be curious to know what she shares and, maybe
what nuggets stick out to herand her grief journey and how
we're similar and different.

Dr. Dean (56:24):
so it sounds like your current counselor, understands
grief and loss in a way thatyour first one didn't.
And so I'm grateful that youhave that.
and before we wrap up, is thereanything else you wanted to
share?

I guess I can give my, be an organ donation pitch
at this point.
one thing that has brought mejoy and comfort in losing my
brother is encouraging others tosign up to be organ donors.
I actually was not signed up tobe an organ donor, before this,
Occurred, I felt like it wasweird and I had a very skewed
idea of what it meant and, whatthat process would look like.

(57:00):
And, I am now obviously an organdonor.
It brings me comfort in the ideathat I could potentially be
making an impact to others, byhaving people sign up by having
people talk about what theywould want if they were in that
situation with their familiesand making that known.
so that when it comes time forthose difficult decisions to be

(57:21):
made that your family knows whatyour wishes are.
I guess that's going to be myplug on, and even if you can't
donate your organs, for whateverreason, if you've had medical
issues or whatever, you canstill sign up and be a skin,
tissue, bone, cornea donor.
you can still make a hugeimpact.
if you choose to do that.

Dr. Dean (57:41):
Thank you.
I'll put links in the show notesabout

that would

Dr. Dean (57:44):
organ donation.
So I know you shared severalalready, but do you want to
share some favorite memoriesthat you had of you and Josh?

Yeah, the one that maybe speaks to, his love for,
his little sister.
when I was, I want to say I wasin junior high, maybe early high
school years, he in unbeknownstto me on multiple times to radio
show contests to win, NSYNCtickets.

(58:13):
and, we grew up in a smallertown in Iowa.
And so we had to travel on the B100 bus to the concert, 2 hours
away.
He's an adult taking his littlesister on this B 100, bus with a
bunch of other screaming girls.
And, Took me to, one of my firstconcerts and we went and saw
NSYNC together.
And I don't know if he enjoyedit, but I very much did.

(58:35):
And, that was such a coolexperience.
I felt very cool at that age tobe able to go see him in NSYNC
concert and, that my big brotherwas going to take me, it was
pretty cool too.
That's one thing, big love ofmusic growing up.
We listened a lot to like theBeatles, the Eagles, Meatloaf
has always actually been one ofthe family favorites.

(58:56):
And, I was very jealous becauseI was only eight and my parents
took my older siblings to theconcert and I wasn't allowed to
go because he was apparentlyinappropriate.
in concerts for an eight yearold.
But anyways, very much remember,all of our family weddings.
my dad's side of the family isbig Irish Catholic.
we would always sing Paradise tothe Dashboard Light, and my

(59:17):
brother would do the boy part,and I would do the girl part.
And it took me several years asan adult to actually realize
what that song was about, andwhat, totally did not comprehend
what that song was about growingup, but just lots of dancing and
singing at weddings and,Memories of American Pie and
some of those classics of usjust singing together on the
dance floor and, celebratingtogether, and then, getting to

(59:41):
see, him meet my first son,getting to watch him be a parent
to my nieces and to my nephewand, an uncle to my, my oldest
nephew is 13.
and he was the only for a reallylong time.
And so my brother and I spoiledhim quite a bit.
And, yeah, it's just, there'stoo much to say at all.
But, I just got a lot of.

(01:00:04):
Time with him as much as I wantmore.
and, even when I lived, out inD.
C.
and Indianapolis, he would cometo visit me.
One of my favorite things, Iworked for the FBI, and when we
were in Indianapolis, we hadnever One year I was working
there, we had the Super Bowlcome to town, and that is like a
full blown, everybody isworking, 24 7 type of thing.

(01:00:25):
And I was working the overnightshifts, and my brother and
sister in law came, because thePatriots were playing, which was
our favorite team.
And I would

Dr. Dean (01:00:33):
sorry to hear that.

Katie Kuehn (01:00:34):
Yeah, I know, right?
I know.
most people feel that way.
I would come home after myovernight shift and kick them
out of my bed in my one roomapartment that they were
sleeping in so that I could goto sleep.
And then I'd wake up in theafternoon and we'd all go to the
Super Bowl Village together andjust do that.
They came to D.
C.
and I'd take them, Around DC, mydad and my brother helped me

(01:00:55):
move into my first apartment inDC.
And we drove the, U Haul out andwe stayed at the junkiest hotel
because my dad doesn't believein splurging for nice places
halfway there.
And then, yeah, I just, there'sso many things that he was a
part of all of, even when I wasfar away, he still made it a

(01:01:16):
point to be a part of those bigthings.

Dr. Dean (01:01:19):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for thisinterview.
I really enjoyed it.

Katie Kuehn (01:01:23):
I appreciate the platform to, share his memory
and to just be able to talk openand freely about, the hard, but
also being able to celebrate himand share his memory with you
and with others.
So, thank you.

Dr. Dean (01:01:36):
you're welcome.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and

(01:01:56):
grieving tips for subscribers.
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please follow, subscribe, andshare.
Thanks again.

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