Surviving Sibling Loss & Stigma following Addiction Related Death: Sara / Dan

Surviving Sibling Loss & Stigma: Sara / Dan
The Broken Pack: Stories of Adult Sibling Loss features Dr. Dean interviewing Sara McCann, who  recounts losing her brother Dan to substance use disorder. In this conversation, Sara unpacks the unique challenges faced by surviving siblings and the stigma surrounding addiction. Prepare to be moved by Sara's raw account and Dr. Dean's expertise as they shed light on sibling loss. Sara's experience underscores the profound grief of surviving siblings and the need for greater support after sibling loss. By amplifying voices like hers, we can create a more understanding world where grieving siblings receive the support they need and validate the misunderstood, disenfranchised loss of a sibling.

Related Links:
-Daniel Snel Memorial Scholarship & 5K- http://www.danthemanrun.com/
- Sara's Mighty article she wrote shortly after losing Dan- https://themighty.com/2018/03/help-brother-heroin-addiction-overdose/

Content Warning: This episode discusses the loss of a loved one due to substance use disorder and may be upsetting for listeners who have experienced similar losses or have experienced substance use disorder firsthand or in loved ones.

-If you believe you are witnessing an overdose, call 911 or your country’s emergency number immediately even if you are administering Narcan.
-In the US,, please call SAMHSA’s National Helpline is  1-800-662-HELP (4357) or Text your 5-digit ZIP Code to 435748 (HELP4U) or call a warmline.
-For more immediate crisis call 911, 988, or go to the nearest emergency room.
- In the UK, related resources: https://tinyurl.com/3fknb36c
-In the USA, warmlines by state : https://warmline.org/warmdir.html
-A warmline directory for trained peer supports in over 20 countries can be found at https://www.supportiv.com/tools/international-resources-crisis-and-w

Support the show

If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at [e-mail] or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.

Please like, subscribe, and share!

Please follow us on social media:
Facebook: @BrokenPack
Instagram: @thebrokenpack
TikTok: @the_broken_pack
YouTube: @thebrokenpack

Sign-up for Wild Grief™, our newsletter: https://thebrokenpack.com/newsletter

Thank you!

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT

Credits:

The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media

"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Licensed for use by The Broken Pack™
Now available on all streaming platforms including Apple Music & Spotify:
Angela Dean.
In today's episode, I spoke withSarah about losing her brother,
Daniel.
She lost Daniel from anoverdose, and we talk about
losing him, how she's doing,what it was like to grieve him,
and the stigma of substance usedisorder and how that affected
her grief, and what she wouldlike you to know about that, as

(00:56):
well as sibling loss.
Take a listen.
Content warning- this episodecontains talk of substance use,
which may be upsetting to somepeople.
All right, so welcome to theshow.

(01:17):
I was wondering how you wantedto introduce yourself to our
listeners.

Sara McCann (01:21):
Sure.
So my name is Sarah McCann.
grew up in Hillsborough, NewJersey.
I live just outside ofPhiladelphia now, in Newtown
Square, Pennsylvania.
I'm married.
I have a dog and a cat.
worked from home and I am thelittle sister of my brother
Daniel, who we lost in Septemberof 2016.

Dr. Dean (01:43):
Thank you for that.

Sara McCann (01:44):
Yeah.

Dr. Dean (01:45):
before we talk about what it was like to lose Daniel,
what would you like us to knowabout Daniel?

Sara McCann (01:50):
Probably the first thing that comes to mind that I
feel like is must know about himwas just honestly, he loved so
hard.
feel like it was, maybe it'smore common now, but especially
back when he was growing up andespecially as a young man, he
did not shy away from tellingpeople how much he loved them.

(02:13):
how much he cared about them.
he used those words frequentlywith people, that he was close
with.
And, he told me often, I have somany messages from him, telling
me how proud he was of me, howmuch he loves me.
and I know other people havesaid the same.
he was just very open with hislove, and I just feel like

(02:35):
that's kind of rare.
And, yeah, I try to emulate thatnow in my life, and be more like
him.
But, that's just one thing that,sticks out to me.

Dr. Dean (02:48):
Yeah, I think It's a gender stereotype, but
especially for men, I think it'sa little bit harder in our
society to, to share that.

Sara McCann (02:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Yep.

Dr. Dean (02:57):
What was the age difference?

Sara McCann (03:00):
just a little under two years.

Dr. Dean (03:02):
Okay.

Sara McCann (03:03):
Yeah.

Dr. Dean (03:05):
so what was your relationship like with him?

Sara McCann (03:08):
relationship was very close.
we were a typical brother andsister growing up.
we fought, pretty much likecrazy, as young kids.
but we were always very close.
And then as, we got older, wegot closer, call each other best
friends.
and then I would say, hisstruggles with substance use
disorder, actually made us evencloser because I knew that, he

(03:32):
needed support and even thoughwe went through a lot together,
it made us stronger in a weirdway.

Dr. Dean (03:40):
Do you want to say more about that?
In what ways you were strongerbecause of it.

Sara McCann (03:45):
Yeah, I guess just, I knew that he needed a support.
I, it was, back when he first,started struggling with
substance use disorder, reallydidn't know much about it.
this was like still, maybe 2008,2009.
I could be getting that yearwrong, it wasn't, I feel like

(04:06):
it's a lot more talked aboutnow.
and we know a lot more about it,but back then we really didn't.
And, it took me a while to learnand.
understand that it's a disease.
but once I did I tried to be asupport to him and someone he
could go to and talk to and Ifelt like he really leaned on me

(04:27):
because Honestly through hisaddiction He lost a lot of a lot
of friends along the way and I Ithink he was very lonely.
So it did make us a lot closerthan I think other adult
siblings are.

Dr. Dean (04:43):
Thank you for sharing that.
I like how you pointed out thatit was difficult for you to
realize it was a disease atfirst.

Sara McCann (04:51):
Yeah.

Dr. Dean (04:52):
hear that so much in my professional work, people
that are either struggling withsubstance use disorder or
supporting someone that is, thatit's like, Oh, I didn't realize
that this is an illness.
Yeah,

Sara McCann (05:10):
it's actual illness.
and yeah, it's hard to wrap yourbrain around initially, I think.

Dr. Dean (05:16):
for sure.
Thank you for sharing that.
Is there anything else you wantus to know about?
You or him before we dive intothe difficult story of losing
him.

Sara McCann (05:27):
Honestly, he was one of the funniest people that
I knew.
And, our relationship was, wehad a lot of humor in it.
we had a lot of inside jokesfrom growing up and, I think I
miss that the most, like thoseinside jokes or, when you look
at them from across the room,you know what they're thinking.
There's a little smile, you'regonna like chat later.

Dr. Dean (05:48):
Mm hmm

Sara McCann (05:49):
You just get each other.
It was the ease of that.
And, yeah, he just, he had agreat sense of humor and he was
just a very, loving and caringperson.
even when he was going throughrecovery.
he lived with my mom for manyyears while in recovery and, he
would bring home, peopleoccasionally from his meetings
who didn't have anywhere tosleep and he would be like, can

(06:11):
we give them even a sleeping bagor a tent or what can we do?
he was always trying to helpother people because I think he
recognized how fortunate he wasto have, his family supporting
him.
Not everyone has that.
so yeah, he was just a reallyfunny, caring person.
And, I miss him a lot.

Dr. Dean (06:31):
Yeah, thank you.

Sara McCann (06:32):
Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Dean (06:33):
And I know that your story is out there and I read
it, but many of our audiencemembers probably have not.
So what would you like to shareabout the story of losing
Daniel?

Sara McCann (06:44):
Yeah.
Dan was, pretty much youraverage high school guy.
He had a lot of friends.
He was pretty popular.
he loved football, loved hugeNew York Giants fan.
very smart.
wanted to work with computersand specifically software
development, coding.
He could hack into anything.

(07:05):
It was crazy and he didn't evenreally have to try that hard in
school.
if I wanted to get good grades,I really had to study and apply
myself.
It just came so naturally tohim.
In, I guess it was his senioryear of high school.
He was in a car accident and, hewas fine, just walked away with
some bruises and, he went to thehospital, they prescribed him

(07:26):
opioids, and that was prettymuch, the start of his substance
use disorder, but, we didn'treally know it at the time.
Back then, we didn't reallyunderstand they were addictive,
at all, or else, obviously, we'dWe would never have been okay
with him taking them, especiallygranted he didn't even have any
major injuries, but I think thatwas his first taste of drugs

(07:50):
and, he went off to college, butI, I remember being a freshman
my year, my, first year incollege and getting a phone call
from him and he was just tellingme how scared he was because he
was, he felt like he was,addicted or hooked on, these,
prescription pills.
And that was the start ofeverything.

(08:11):
his, substance use disorderspiraled from there.
And, it moved on to heroin,which is, common, when people
start with opioids.
we didn't know this wasobviously still back in like, I
guess this would now have beenlike 2010, 2011.
we didn't know, I rememberlearning even, we went to a

(08:33):
family therapist and him tellingmy mom and dad and I that,
they're essentially the samething.
Just heroin is a lot cheaper.
Yeah, we didn't even have anyknowledge of any of that.
It was, we were all learningabout it for the first time.
So trying to get him help andsupport him while also wrapping
our minds around, what this wasand what it meant.

(08:54):
but yeah, he eventually had toget pulled out of college.
my parents, removed him becauseit was getting scary.
he would not be answering phonecalls for days at a time.
And then from there, honestly,he spent many years in and out
of rehab, halfway houses,psychiatric wards, diagnosed
with multiple different mentalillnesses, yeah, just shuffling

(09:17):
through the system for years andyears, and, towards, he had some
legal troubles at differenttimes, but essentially, he had
been sober for a couple ofyears, and towards, the end of
his life, he was stillstruggling with, prescription
medication, though, that,psychiatrists had prescribed to
him, so he still wasn't, sober,when I say sober, I mean from

(09:40):
heroin, but, there was othersubstances that he was
prescribed that he was, he wasalways looking for something to
be dependent on, he reallystruggled with just being
completely sober, And, he wentto Florida, for rehab.
He wanted to go desperately,which is something about him
that I find to be reallyremarkable, how much he really

(10:02):
wanted help.
he wanted to live a normal life.
He didn't want this.
He fought tooth and nail for hisrecovery and sobriety.
he just really struggled, Ithink, mentally.
every time he would find himselfagain, I think he would always
get pulled back down by thosedemons.
but yeah, towards the end of hislife, he went to a rehab in

(10:22):
Florida.
and, His probation officerpretty much said he has to come
back to New Jersey, or he wouldrisk being arrested.
My mom went to the probationofficer, the judge, and pleaded,
he needs more because He hadbeen granted, I guess the
standard 30 days to be out ofstate for rehab, but most of

(10:44):
that time he unfortunately spentin the hospital.
He was having seizures fromwithdrawals from this
prescription medication.
So he didn't really have likeeven the, 30 days, which is not
enough in my opinion to beginwith, but, he ended up coming
home because he had to, and, Wefound out that he overdosed

(11:04):
probably four days later.

Dr. Dean (11:05):
Oh.

Sara McCann (11:06):
Yeah, he had been at a meeting that morning.
He had been texting me thatmorning telling me he got a new
job.
Like he sounded pretty positive.
But, yeah, my mom, had taken ahalf day of work that day.
And, She just happened to have adoctor appointment, so she got
home and found him, on herkitchen floor.
And the door had been left open,so we still don't know if other

(11:30):
people were with him and theyran.
We're not sure.
but, it definitely, it lookedlike other people had been there
because, he wouldn't have leftthe door open like we have dogs.
He just, I don't know.
it was an odd.
It was just odd, too, because,he hadn't, he hadn't used heroin
probably for four years, so itwas a shock, I definitely, I

(11:53):
can't lie that we had thoughtabout this being a possibility,
at many times throughout his,addiction, but I wasn't
expecting it when it actuallyhappened.

Dr. Dean (12:06):
That's heart wrenching, especially because he
was in the process of gettinghelp and the system failed him.

Sara McCann (12:12):
Yes, it did a lot along the way, honestly.
It was very heartbreaking andfrustrating.

Dr. Dean (12:19):
How did you find out that he had died?

Sara McCann (12:23):
So my parents did not want me to find out while I
was alone.
I was dating someone at thetime.
I lived with him, actually.
And my parents called him andtold him.
And, he, actually came to mywork.
so I had been, I'll neverforget.
I was sitting at my deskactually eating string cheese

(12:45):
and just like living my life.
And my boss came over and said,I, can I come speak with you in
the conference room?
And I was like, okay, I'mdefinitely getting fired or
something's wrong here.
Like, Your mind, your brainspirals But yeah, he led me to
the conference room, and when heopened the door, I saw my
boyfriend standing there, and Ipretty much just knew as soon as

(13:05):
I saw him.
Yeah, I just knew, and he toldme, and we just gathered my
things, and my boss said, don'tworry about anything, please
take care of yourself, and wewent.

Dr. Dean (13:16):
Were you living close by to your parents?
so I was living in Westchester,Pennsylvania.
So, about an hour and a halffrom

Sara McCann (13:24):
my mom's house,

Dr. Dean (13:25):
Yeah.
I'm curious.
I've talked to other peopleabout this.
How much time were you able totake off from work after Dan
died?

Sara McCann (13:34):
Not enough at all.
I think I got five days.
Yeah, I got five days andactually because, his death was
under investigation, we weren'table to do a memorial service or
an obituary or write anobituary, anything like that for
like about a month after hedied.
So I went back to work beforehaving even gone through like a

(13:56):
memorial service or anythingyet, which was awful.

Dr. Dean (14:03):
What was it like to go back to work?
Were you able to focus or in thefog?

Sara McCann (14:09):
No, just no focus, definitely a fog.
I remember feeling like I hadlike dark clouds just hanging
over my head every day.
I felt like answering a simpleemail, which would have taken me
maybe a minute previously, itwas like I was staring at the
screen for an hour.
I couldn't form words.
I just didn't care anymore.
And, yeah, it was hard and, Ijust felt like it was also

(14:33):
awkward with coworkers.
People didn't know what to say,or they said the wrong things,
or, it was honestly awful.
I don't think that, that peopleget enough bereavement time in
the corporate world.
But, you know.

Dr. Dean (14:43):
Correct.

Sara McCann (14:44):
Yeah, I they would change that.

Dr. Dean (14:48):
Yeah, it's shocking to me, I looked into that thinking
it was a problem specificallywith the U.
S., assuming that because of ourhealth care system and
everything, but it's a globalissue.
not a lot of countries have anybetter bereavement policies.
There are a few, but notsignificant.

Sara McCann (15:08):
Yeah, that's really unfortunate.

Dr. Dean (15:10):
Yeah.
I think it was Jen Oglesby onthe first season that said she
wishes that we still wore black,at least so people would have an
idea that, you're grieving.

Sara McCann (15:23):
like just because I'm back to work doesn't mean
I'm okay.

Dr. Dean (15:27):
Correct.
Yeah.
Right.
So that month was obviously verydifficult.

Sara McCann (15:34):
hmm.
Mm hmm.

Dr. Dean (15:36):
So you didn't have support from co-workers where
did you find support if at all?

Sara McCann (15:40):
Yeah, I mean I also wasn't super close with a ton of
co workers.
I had one I was close with and,the few were supportive but
there was also some that justwere really awkward or they
didn't know what to say.
It was just uncomfortable But Idid find a lot of support
through close friends andfamily.

(16:00):
I'm very close with my aunts anduncles i'm very close with my
mom and dad.
and then I have a couple ofreally close friends who you
we're also extremely supportiveAnd still are honestly

Dr. Dean (16:16):
That's fantastic.
It sounds like you were able tosupport your parents, but also
get support from them.

Sara McCann (16:23):
Yes, Yeah.
It was tough at times you knowbecause we're all grieving in
different ways.
My parents are divorcedactually.
So my dad, had to fly in fromFlorida but Yeah, I, I worried a
lot about my mom in those early,months, just because she lived
with my brother.

(16:43):
I knew she was struggling a lot.
it's one thing to lose him, butI can't imagine having lived
with him for years prior, andjust have that loss.
Like the absence of him, evenin, their nightly TV shows they
would watch together, all ofthat.
I think, I worried about her alot more than even myself or

(17:05):
anyone else really.

Dr. Dean (17:08):
How are you doing now with it?
It's there's no timeline, right?
But it does change over time.
So I wonder, wondering how youare.

Sara McCann (17:16):
I accept it now.
and I would say How I think ofit is when Dan first died, like
I said, it felt like there wasdark rain clouds over my head
every day.
It was like a fog.
All I could think about was theloss.
it was just constantly in mymind now.
It's like you're walking aroundin a sunny day and occasionally

(17:38):
there will be a rainstorm

Dr. Dean (17:40):
Mmm,

Sara McCann (17:40):
Because that, grief or a grief wave, will hit out of
nowhere.
and any trigger could set itoff, but it doesn't always
affect, my entire day.
I can move on.
I can still enjoy things.
I can be passionate about workagain and, find laughter.
So I think it just changed, Ilearned to live with it and, and

(18:03):
not let it completely consumeme.

Dr. Dean (18:07):
You're a little bit further out than I am in my
grief, and I'm just curious,what was the process like of
learning to live with grief foryou?

Sara McCann (18:17):
It was tough.
I think I was hoping that I meanit will be eight years for me
this September and I think I washoping that by now it would be
like gone oh, I won't, feelthis, gut wrenching pain
randomly anymore.
But I've learned that Withoutit, it's because we love them so

(18:38):
much.
and that love is not goinganywhere.
It's always gonna be here, sowe're always going to feel that.
but I think just Learning toaccept that and embrace it, like
I know myself now and myselfnow, if I have days where I'm
like, okay, I'm You know,sometimes I, it's a passing, a
small, maybe I'll cry a littlebit and then move on with my day

(19:00):
and I'm good.
Other times now I've learned tojust kind of like, okay, lean
into it.
If I'm really having a day, Ican't shake it.
Then I will just cry and feelsad.
And then the next day I feel alot better.
so I think not fighting it asmuch.
And then also I find a lot ofcomfort in talking about it,
like we're doing now, or talkingwith friends and family about

(19:21):
it.
Talking about him helps a lot.
sharing stories.
but yeah, I guess just it soundsweird, but making grief a part
of your life, making room forit, because it's really just
love.

Dr. Dean (19:33):
Absolutely.
I love that.
Do you find that people atpoints have shied away from
wanting to talk about him?

Sara McCann (19:40):
people in my life that fully embrace it and are,
like, ready to hear whateverstory I'm telling them for the
100th time and they act it's thefirst time they're hearing it
because they're amazing friends,and family.
Like, all my family is great andthey love talking about Dan.
But I have some, people in mylife that I can tell it makes
them uncomfortable.

(20:01):
maybe they just don't, if theyhaven't really experienced it,
they don't know, what to say.
And I do totally understandthat.
I don't know if I would havebeen so good with it had I not
lost my brother.
so I try to remember that, eventhough it can be a little
frustrating when you feel like,Like people are shutting that
topic down really quickly ordismissing it.

Dr. Dean (20:24):
Yeah, I think that's an important point, because
there's always that gutreaction, like, well, that
wasn't appropriate to say whenyou hear certain things.

Sara McCann (20:31):
Right.

Dr. Dean (20:33):
don't know if we would have said the same things or did
say the same things before suchloss.
Yeah.
So valid point.

Sara McCann (20:39):
yeah.
I think about that a lot,honestly.
if I showed up for people, asmuch as I should have, but I
guess you don't know what youdon't know, and I try to
remember that and give peoplegrace, but it's frustrating
sometimes.

Dr. Dean (20:55):
Of course it is, yeah.

Sara McCann (20:56):
Yeah.

Dr. Dean (20:58):
What's been really difficult or those triggering
days for you?

Sara McCann (21:03):
I think thinking about the future can be
difficult, because obviouslythey're not in it.
My husband and I, want to have afamily.
Thinking of my children neverknowing him.
when I got married, my brothernot being there, my brother
having never met my husband.

(21:24):
thinking about my parentsgetting older and navigating
that, without my brother.
that, that's difficult.

Dr. Dean (21:35):
Do you find ways to stay connected to him now?

Sara McCann (21:39):
Definitely.
I still try to watch as many NewYork Giants games as I can, even
though they've been prettyterrible in recent years.
So, it's a struggle.
But, we have a family game.
it's not just our family, but,all, the men, My dad's side of
the family played cribbage.
It's a card game.
and my brother absolutely lovedit.

(22:00):
my husband and I play it prettyfrequently.
on, my brother's birthday we'lloften go to, Longhorn
Steakhouse, which was hisfavorite restaurant.
make his favorite meals, stufflike that.
little things that, remind me ofhim.

Dr. Dean (22:17):
So the anniversary and the birthdays and the big
events, weddings.
Those make sense.
I wonder if there are othertimes that, the grief is going
to seep in if it just catchesyou off guard, like it can.

Sara McCann (22:29):
Yeah, I'm always surprised at how much, the
anniversaries and birthdays andeven the holidays still really
affect me.
every year I'm like, I think I'mgoing to be okay this year.
and it will just hit me out ofnowhere and it's still just as
painful, I feel as it was inyear one and two.
But yeah, the other times whereit just comes out of nowhere,

(22:51):
yeah, I feel like you almostdon't see it coming.
It's just something small, I'llhear a song on the radio, or,
even just this morning, I was onFacebook and I love to look at
the It shows you like whathappened in previous years like
who posted on your wall orsomething and Sometimes my
brother will come up there andjust this morning.
It said I love you sister.

(23:12):
It's just like little thingslike that and you're not
expecting it

Dr. Dean (23:16):
mm-Hmm.
I think that, the social mediagets a bad rap.
But you're not the first guestor person and myself included to
there's something about holdingon to that because you can see
those memories.
That is bittersweet.

Sara McCann (23:29):
Everyone makes fun of Facebook now and they're
like, oh, no one uses itanymore.
and I'm like, I will never stopusing it as long as it's a
platform because I have so manyconnections with my brother
through it.
I pretty much have it for likethe memories with him and we
have a memorial group for himthat we'll post in if we're
missing him or something.
So Yeah, it's interesting

Dr. Dean (23:52):
You feel the same level of support now that you
did in the beginning?

Sara McCann (23:57):
Not as much, but I guess that's also fair if I
don't require as much.
I guess

Dr. Dean (24:05):
Good point

Sara McCann (24:06):
tough.
Yeah, it's tough.
I think there's certain timeswhere, I would love to, you
know, a friend said, hey, justchecking in, like, how are you
doing?
Or, I think that would behelpful, or even, if people,
didn't shy away from talkingabout him, or, It's hard though,
because, like we were sayingearlier, I don't know if I would

(24:29):
have, brought up that.
the topic if I didn't know now.
now I know if someone's lostsomeone, I will bring up that
person to them.
Oh, do you remember when?
Or oh, this reminds me of him orsomething.
but unless you've gone throughit, you're scared to bring them
up.
But really, when you'regrieving, you're thinking about
them all the time and bringingthem up is the biggest blessing

(24:50):
that you can give someone who'sgrieving because you're
reminding them that, They're notforgotten and that's all we care
about.
We just want their memory to notbe forgotten.
so it's such a gift when peopledo bring my brother up,
especially unprovoked, like Ididn't say anything to start the
conversation and they justnaturally brought him up and

(25:12):
it's I, it means so much to me.

Dr. Dean (25:14):
Yeah.
Thank you for that reminder andmessage.
Is there anything specific tosibling loss that you found
surprising?

Sara McCann (25:25):
I think initially, back in 2016, there was, like,
nothing out there about it.
I remember going on Google,immediately, just searching for
support.
Any kind of support group,local, there was absolutely
nothing.
I think that's obviouslychanged.
I mean, you're doing amazingwork, and I, yeah, it's so

(25:46):
needed, and, I've seen a lotmore just about grief in general
on social media.
there's a lot more resources,which is amazing.
but I still think sibling griefis overlooked.
everyone is concerned about theparents, rightfully

Dr. Dean (26:01):
Okay.

Sara McCann (26:01):
can't even imagine that loss, but sibling loss is
really, I think, a lot harderthan people realize.
Cause when you think about it,your sibling is the one person
that you kind of start off lifewith and you and you almost end
life with because you grow oldtogether and its so its such an

(26:22):
unnatural order to lose them ata young age or before their
time.

Dr. Dean (26:30):
That's precisely it, right?
They're supposed to be in ourlife, most of that before and
after partners and parents andall of those things, And for you
being the younger sibling, hewas there the minute you were
born.

Sara McCann (26:45):
Yeah, and that, there's no one else that, knows
all your history, your familyhistory.
Like your sibling does and oneday when your parents pass you
would have your sibling toremember when or talk about, you
know your mom or dad or talkabout family stories and Without
that with my brother.
It's it feels devastating.

(27:06):
Honestly

Dr. Dean (27:07):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting point too.
I don't know if this was yourexperience, but I'll share mine
for a second.
even at my brother's funeral,this was like the first big
family event he, he was there,but he wasn't right.
And I was like, he'd find thisthing to be funny or irritating
in the same way, right?

(27:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know the answer is probablyeverything, but what do you miss
most about him?

Sara McCann (27:40):
Hmm Sorry, I'm trying not to get emotional.

Dr. Dean (27:43):
okay.
Take your time.

Sara McCann (27:45):
Probably like, when I walked into a room, He lit up.
He just gave me the biggest bearhug, And his whole smile, And he
was just so happy to see me.
I miss that, smile and that hugmore than anything.

(28:12):
I was told myself I was notgoing to cry.

Dr. Dean (28:17):
thank you for sharing that I know it's hard sometimes
to talk about.

Sara McCann (28:21):
yeah.

Dr. Dean (28:22):
sibling loss or loss in general.
The reason that we talk aboutthem, post their pictures online

Sara McCann (28:32):
You know we talk about them and post about them
years and years but maybedecades later it's really, we
want to keep their memory alive.
It's so important to us.

(28:52):
and we love them so much thatlove goes nowhere.
It stays with us.
So it's really important for usto feel like, they're
remembered.
And I think that would be thebiggest thing I could tell
someone who's never been throughit.
if you can help us keep theirmemory alive, it's so important
and it means so much to us.

Dr. Dean (29:16):
In that vein, I noticed when you sent those
links, which I will put in theshow notes, that you're doing
some great things around hismemory.
Do you want to talk about that?

Sara McCann (29:28):
Yeah, of course.
Myself, my mom, my dad, and mycousin Chris, who was very close
with Dan.
we started a non profit, calledthe Daniel Snell Memorial
Scholarship.
So basically, we do a 5K everyyear, that we organize.
And the proceeds go to agraduating, high school senior

(29:49):
who has been impacted byaddiction personally or through
a loved one.
And, they write an essay and wepick through, we try to usually
pick at least two students.
but yeah, it's been reallyamazing.
It's really hard work, but, it'sso rewarding to feel like we're
doing something, even if justeducating people or, helping to,

(30:12):
fight that stigma, because it'sstill so stigmatized.
that's one thing that was sodifficult about losing him.
It wasn't just losing him andthe grief It was also like
losing him to something that isso stigmatized that people will
judge him for Without everhaving met him people judge him.

(30:33):
I already know this.
He knew that when he was alive.
I think he I think There's agood chance he would still be
alive if that stigma didn'texist.
I think he was lonely.
He had a ton of support fromfamily, but you know just in
general he was embarrassed andhe felt so much shame and I feel

(30:54):
like if it was less stigmatizedand more talked about, maybe he
would have gotten more help heneeded.
yeah, all that to say, we try totalk about it, raise awareness.
If we can help even one personor one family that learns about
it and knows what to look outfor with their child, then, it's

(31:16):
all worth it.

Dr. Dean (31:18):
Thank you for doing all of that, I'm curious of the
stigma of substance use, howthat impacted your grief?

Sara McCann (31:29):
Oh, it really impacted my grief.
I remember initially, like, allour close friends and family
knew, obviously, that he wasstruggling for years.
And I felt like I could talk tothem, but even, when he first
passed, it's not like when hewas struggling.
We put out a PSA, oh, Dan hassubstance use disorder issues,

(31:53):
it, so
Right.
Alright.
initial, do I tell them?
will they judge him?
Will they just, that, that washard I struggled with that a
little bit, but quickly realizedthat, if someone's going to
judge him, that's on them, butthere's so many other people

(32:13):
that are going through this andto know that they're not alone
or, they have someone in theirlife who's struggling, like not
being afraid to talk about itand opening up more about it is
so important.
So it's his story.
And I felt like there's no, Noreason to be embarrassed.
I'm extremely proud of mybrother and I always will be.

Dr. Dean (32:35):
did you want to share some favorite stories or
memories of him?
You can share as many as youwant.
I'd love to hear.

Sara McCann (32:41):
My gosh.
I have to think, I feel like I'mtrying to think of like happy
memories.
cause there was some reallytough years for a while there.
honestly, we had so manyamazing.
trips.
we would go every summer to LongBeach Island, New Jersey.

(33:01):
and we would spend a week with,my mom and dad, me and my
brother, and then, my cousins,Dana, Lauren, and Chris, and
then my Aunt Nancy and UncleGary.
And we would go for many years,and just so many fun memories.
we were all like young adults,High school or very early
college years and We weregetting into a little bit of

(33:22):
trouble, we were like some of usmight have been using fake ids
we were just young adults, butwe had so much fun and we have
so many pictures Those tripslike I will always treasure all
those memories so much.
I'm trying to think of oneparticular story, but I'm like,

(33:45):
I don't know why I can't thinkof,

Dr. Dean (33:47):
that's okay.
Sometimes it's hard spend somuch time with them that
sometimes it's hard to rememberthe.
The little things that just youremember them.

Sara McCann (33:56):
like you remember them randomly, but for some
reason I can't think of one inparticular right now.

Dr. Dean (34:03):
Yeah, that's okay.
you said that you want to havechildren, have you thought about
what you want them to know aboutUncle Dan?

Sara McCann (34:12):
Yes, definitely his sense of humor.
his love of food, of all kindsof food, he was a big foodie,
and, yeah, I can still picture,any holiday, if he was still
sleeping, it was tradition formy family, we always made
cinnamon buns, and by made, wejust put the Pillsbury ones in
the oven, but it was just likeChristmas morning, That's just,

(34:34):
sticks out to me and the smellof it would, I feel like, wake
him and he would justimmediately be like at the table
ready to go.
and when my parents split up andit was just my mom and my
brother living together, I wouldstill come home obviously for
Christmas and Thanksgiving andtowards the later years of his
life still just I'll neverforget just, he might be dead

(34:55):
asleep, but as soon as you couldsmell those cinnamon buns, he
was sitting right at the table,ready to go.
So I honestly just his sense ofhumor, how much he loved people,
how much he cared about people,how much he would have loved
meeting them and being theiruncle.
He was so good with kids and healways said he wanted a daughter

(35:17):
like a little girl one day

Dr. Dean (35:19):
Okay.
Yeah I definately want want themto know that and

Sara McCann (35:28):
Recently, actually my mom's boyfriend found, like a
camcorder, in her garage that Ididn't know still existed.
and for Christmas he had foundthem and got them digitized for
me.

Dr. Dean (35:40):
Oh, Wow..

Sara McCann (35:41):
It was my camcoder when I was probably eight.
I haven't gone through them allbecause it's really, Sends me
into a grief spiral, but mybrother is obviously on them and
it was such a blessing.
I feel like I would love to showmy kids one day, so they can see
him and even though he was justa little kid, it was, he was

(36:02):
hilarious.
So,Yeah.
Lovely.
Yeah.

Dr. Dean (36:10):
Alright, Thank you for this chat,

Sara McCann (36:12):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
And

Dr. Dean (36:15):
You're welcome.

Sara McCann (36:16):
questions.
And it was really nice to beable to talk about it.

Dr. Dean (36:20):
Yeah, anytime I'd love to hear more as you think about
it.

Sara McCann (36:23):
Yeah.

Dr. Dean (36:24):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and grieving tips forsubscribers.

(36:44):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, subscribe,and share.
Thanks again.

Music (36:54):
"You're second guessing.
Cause you know.
You just never know.".