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Housing shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all proposition. Yet in a decision that stands alone in Europe, Ireland banned an entire category of housing with a ministerial pen stroke. Why?

Peter Horgan, co-founder of Lucas Capital and Grayling Properties, takes us inside the world of co-living - professionally managed, community-focused accommodations that serve as landing pads for young professionals relocating to Dublin. With 70% of residents being newcomers to the city, these developments fulfil a critical need in the housing ecosystem, yet they were banned in an act of self-sabotage that is an all too common move by policy makers.

Show notes:

• Rathmines House - https://rathmineshouse.com/#building
• Liberties House - https://libertieshouse.com/
• Portaferry choosing article - https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/approved-communal-housing-plan-for-co-down-will-be-first-of-its-kind-in-ireland-MMAYV7OSEVE4RDOZQDGRILFLI4/
• Portaferry website - https://www.portaferrycohousing.org/
• An article about co-living in Germany - https://cohabitas.com/communal-living-in-germany/?utm_source
• Grayling Properties wrote an article about co-living

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
so I have a couple of admissions to make.
First of all, go on, I've, I'venever, I've never been in a
co-living thing.
I'm like a big fan of co-living, yeah, but I've never been in
one.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Okay, so you like the concept, but you haven't yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
So I don't think it matters that I've never been in
one.
No, I don't think it was eitherin my 40s.
I'm not the target demographicfor co-living, but I've been
arguing with policy makers andpeople like co-living is a great
thing, co-living is a greatthing, it should.
And.
But like yeah, I've never beenin one.
Uh, but yeah, sorry, so Iforgot to introduce you.
So yeah, peter, who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
so I am the co-founder of lugas capital and
grayling properties, I suppose Istarted my work journey after
coming out of finance and uccand Grayling Properties.
I suppose I started my workjourney after coming out of
finance in UCC and doing theyear in Australia and not really
knowing what I wanted to do,but luckily I got working in
stockbroking with Good Bodiesoriginally, and Davey, and
that's a great job, I think, fora young person that's

(00:59):
interested in, you know, theworld, economics, investment,
because I was an analystcovering hotels and property,
then equity sales andeffectively from you know, the
age of 23,.
I got to travel North America,london, europe, meeting some of
the smartest people investingand learned a lot from just even
listening to them.
And then you know, you gainyour own confidence in these

(01:21):
things and your own ideas andyou start trying to pitch ideas
to people and you know that's a,that's an important part of you
know, building your confidenceand your ideas etc.
And that very much then led onto where I've ended up
co-founding Lucas Capital2012-2013 in Ireland.
Understanding economics,understanding the stock market

(01:43):
investment, gave myself, my co,tim Call, the confidence to go
out and invest in the propertymarket.
Now we knew plenty aboutinvestment not plenty, but we
felt comfortable in investment.
Back then.
We saw it as an investment.
As you would know more than any, there's a lot more to property
than that, but it's better tobe lucky than good and timing is
everything, so that was a greatentry point we really built

(02:06):
lucas capital out of that, uh,which is a business very much
originally focused onresidential and residential sort
of affordable city center microapartments.
We saw great opportunity inretrofitting older p63 buildings
.
We've done over a thousand ofthem and you know, at that, like
there was only what 1,500 to1,000 apartments being built in

(02:28):
Dublin yeah, In Ireland actually.
So we saw, you know so, theinflux of young people into
Dublin driven by themultinational sector.
I thought, well, these peoplehave nowhere to live.
There's all these, a lot ofthem vacant at the time pre-63
buildings in rag order.
Why cannot we, you know, deepretrofit them and provide an
affordable solution to all theseyoung people coming to Dublin

(02:52):
or being drawn to Dublin by thejob opportunities?

Speaker 1 (02:55):
So that was really kind, of you know, our starting
point.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
That was a very successful strategy.
You know, we exited twoportfolios of that.
Paying Capital were great toback us at the time on that and
building out those portfolios assoon as we got deeper into that
.
Residential property is very,you know, operational and if
your operations as you know aswell, if your operation side is
not right, you can seriouslydevalue an asset.

(03:18):
You can really drive value byoperating the property, so any
outsource providers.
We just felt we could could doa better job.
So we set up GraylingProperties, which is our
operating platform, which is,you know, everything from lease
up to management, to maintenance, to in our co-living
developments.
We hire everyone from theconcierge through to the

(03:39):
cleaners directly and that's todrive operation performance but
also service levels, to make, uh, you know, the people we're
talking about earlier happyliving in a place like like
ratmine's house, like theminiature outsource, I think you
just lose a bit of control interms of customer service.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
well, there's a different, because we, as you
know, we do exactly this, thesame thing, on our resi side and
it's not for, it's not hassle,free, right To.
To run an operational businesslike that, where you're hiring
the people and dealing withpeople, is not easy, but at
least everyone's pulling in thesame direction.
I, I, just I, I find that whenyou, when you see the

(04:16):
outsourcing, the way that's done, like it becomes a commoditized
business really quickly.
Yes, and it's just about, like,fulfilling the contract.
No one really cares.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, and it's literally that's my job
description, or even for theperson providing the service.
Yeah, and actually a goodexample is that of that was.
So I should mention Ger,actually, who runs Rat Minds
House, who comes from ahospitality background, and he's
been fantastic.
When he came in, he was we'renot outsourcing anything.
He was like if I'm running this, I'm hiring everyone directly,

(04:46):
but it also allows for greatflexibility, but you won't get
off an outsourcing.
No so yeah we found that, youknow, it's been a better way to
run our assets and I think we'vedone a good job.
When assets have traded, we'vestayed with them.
We haven't lost an asset to atrade yet, which I think shows
that or uh, we do provide thoselevels of service and we want
third party business as well.

(05:06):
So, yeah, that's been sort ofour journey to date.
That knowledge of youngprofessional market which we
gained through the pre-63s madethe move into co-living sort of
a natural move for us.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Because the pre-63s and for people who are listening
that they hear pre-63, maybethey're younger are listening
that they hear pre-63, maybethey're younger they don't know
what that is in 1963 theplanning act was, uh, was
brought in, or, as tom phillipswould point out to me, the
planning and development act, um, because it's not just about
planning and before that youdidn't need planning permission
to do anything in ireland.
That's correct, which is hard tobelieve, but it's true.

(05:39):
So a lot of big, primarilygeorgian, georgian houses were
subdivided in the period before1963 into what were bedsits,
very small apartments that hadshared kitchens and sometimes
shared bathrooms.
My old man lived in a few ofthem when he was up here as a

(06:00):
bricklayer, when he was startingout, and for the most part
wouldn't have been a whole lotof maintenance, wouldn't have
been a whole lot of lookingafter them, but it was cheap
accommodation and it served, itabsolutely served a purpose, a
purpose at the time.
Everyone refers to them aspre-63 because obviously you
wouldn't be allowed to do thatnow, but because they were done
before.

(06:20):
They were left that way andthey are permissible still,
despite, I think was done beforethey were left that way and
they are permissible?

Speaker 2 (06:27):
uh, still, despite, I think was it john gormley
someone tried to ban them.
Well, they did effectivelyremove bedsits which were an
early substandard form of sothey're the ones that didn't
have like kitchens, or exactlyyeah, they were literally a
bedroom.
They were literally a bedroomwith a shared.
You have to on under thestandards and rental
accommodation.
You have to have everythingcontained within the unit.
Okay, so your pre-63s now areessentially like studio

(06:50):
apartments, Studio with one bedstwo beds, yeah, yeah, but
they'd all be classified on thecontinent as micro apartments
Because of their floor area.
Because of floor area, so,studio, 21 square meters on
average, one bed 29, and twobeds for the 40 square meters.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
And when?
Because you've exited thatbusiness, now right.
Well, we've exited thedevelopment side of Right, but
the management side of it.
You still Exactly, you still do.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
And we manage third party as well.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Okay, so that and I know you'll see where I'm going
with this Occupancy levels inthat how are they Very strong,
yeah, like as you'd expect,across most rental accommodation
in Dublin.
But there's massive demand forthat kind of, even though it's
small.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yes, yes, like, and it plays a similar role,
particularly the studios, maybenot the one beds and two beds,
but the studios play a similarenough role to our portfolio
does anyway to co-living.
It's generally in Dublin 6, soit's well located.
Yeah, okay, our portfolio I'msorry, we manage stuff in north
side of Dublin just very well,so again, it's that landing pad

(07:52):
for a lot of people.
Yeah, it's professionallymanaged by us.
You know, the moving process issimple, all that and so, and so
it does, and then people landin it's near their work and then
they go from there.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, like it fills a , it fills a niche, fills a
niche.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Exactly so you'd have high churn rates in that as
well.
Yeah, sort of you know, 40% ayear, yeah, so it's a high churn
business.
But it fills a niche at acertain age of life where people
just want well-located, ascheap as they can find
accommodation.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
And good nick, obviously yeah.
And look, some older peoplelisten to this and go Pre63,
it's not that Like, these arenice, you've done a nice job on
these.
Exactly, yeah, they're good,but like that it kind of irks me
right?
We were talking earlier aboutme supporting the co-living
thing.
Why.
Why is it okay to have pre-63studios and not okay for

(08:50):
co-living?

Speaker 2 (08:50):
yeah, well, first thing, as you highlighted, is
grandfathered, because it's thatpre-63 designation, so
something that had planning you.
You can't take away thatplanning, even if the planning
law changes right yeah, butreally co-living became a
political football right.
It became a populist politicalfootball.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
I think there's a lot of disinformation about this.
Yes, you tell me what co-livingis.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, so like co-living is community-based,
high-density city-centre livingand very much, as we've
discussed, really focused onyoung professionals who are
relocating nationally orinternationally.
Okay, focused on youngprofessionals who are relocating
nationally or internationallyokay, that's the idea of the
product we have.
By the way, and I should justthrow this in, we have a retired
lady living in that mine'shouse and she just wanted a

(09:33):
community.
You know she didn't want allthe trappings of a house and
possessions and all that andjust want to simplify her life,
but also wanted to you know, besurrounded by young people, you
and have a community around her.
There was a couple who weretraveling Europe and onto the
base that took a studio for sixmonths.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
The first person that I met, who lived in one,
actually works here and shelives in your co-living thing in
.
Rathmine's house.
I did not know that.
Yeah, and we hired her.
How long is she here?
Like six weeks?
Yeah, yeah, and we hired her.
How long is she here?
Like six weeks?
Yeah, so she won't mind, she'sfrom America and her and her

(10:11):
husband up sticks from Americalike six weeks ago and just
moved to Ireland, sold theirhouse, sold their dog, sold
their everything, just moved toIreland and we're like, well,
where are we going to live?
And so they went online, theyfound Rathmine's house and
they're like this is absolutelyperfect.
And they are looking to, theywant to buy a house.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
But they're the exact people to a degree.
Maybe people slightly younger,but that person who's relocating
and hitting a new city andwants that you know well-managed
community environment.
They are exactly the targetmarket.
So I'm delighted in a number offronts.
Number one, when they wentlooking, they found us, so that
means my marketing are doing agood job.

(10:50):
And number two, that they'rereally enjoying the experience
and you don't expect them tostay.
Like you know, a year would beno, we have people who have
renewed and gone into theirsecond year, but your average
would be like for us anyway.
It like for us anyway.
It's about 11 months, which Ithink is about right.
I think some people are a bittoo short, because you are
creating a community and it'shard to get people to know each
other If people are leavingevery week or there for a few

(11:13):
days, you know, yeah, if youhave a person on a, on a desk,
yeah, yeah, at the front youland.
There's a concierge, there's agym, there's a social network
you don't have to worry about.
You know how do I getelectricity, how do I sign up
for a TV package, how do I signup for internet.
You know where do I get myplates and cups and whatever
goes with moving.

(11:33):
But also, like when you move toa new city, you can read all
the reviews you want.
But how do you know whatneighborhood will really suit
you?
No, you don't.
So, like with co-living, inparticular I think with Ratmines
House, you land into a prettycool area.
It's near, very close to CBD.
You know you get all thoseadvantages and you get to kind

(11:54):
of suck it and see, do I likethis area?
The weekends you can movearound a bit.
We actually do even tours atthe weekends.
She said that yeah, yeah, yeah.
So people get to know the localarea, get to know outside of
Dublin, up into Dublin,mountains, glendalough, et
cetera, so it gives them a realfeel for the city and the area
and then they can kind of go.
You know, when we were down inWicklow I really liked that.
So maybe we'll move there andget the dart to work.

(12:14):
You know that suits ourlifestyle or whatever vibe we
like.
So I think that is exactly whatit's meant to be and, like 70%
of our tenants, it's their firsttime in Dublin.
Yeah, why 70%, 70%, and so theyland and it just gives them
that really easy relocation.

(12:34):
Yeah, and then sorry, I thinkwe're doing a very good job.
So a lot want to stay longerthan you'd expect them to, and
that's great as well.
I do think it has a very strongplace in the market because of
those features which you don'tfind anywhere else and you can
try and kind of create them.
But then it leads toinefficiencies such as house
sharing and people overstayingin apart hotels or what have you

(12:56):
, or in hotels.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
The product itself, like let's just look at
Rathmine's house, because I knowyou have a couple of them.
What are they?
Are they all bedrooms withshared kitchens?
Do some of them have kitchen?
How does how does that so?

Speaker 2 (13:08):
and this is why Ratmound's house works as well,
by the way, yeah, and why wehave good retention.
Um, it's larger rat mines housein terms of unit size, so the
average size is 21 square metersOkay.
And then we've eight squaremeters per unit of communal and
dining space and amenity spaceOkay.
So that gets you to 29 squaremeters.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
And is that like in a pod?
Like are there?
Is it like PBSA where it's?

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, it's like so rat mines house is a conversion
and all office blocks, so thatdoes lead to odds and ends.
Yeah, no sure, yeah, yeah, so,um, but typically, um, you have
units, uh, say, or doubleoccupancy for a couple, or 23,
24 square meters, singleoccupancy, 18 square meters.
Okay, and there's bits in themiddle as well, but that's your

(13:53):
kind of your range, giving youraverage of 21 and then your
eight square meters of ofcommunal space.
So, yeah, they're very muchlaid out similarly, like the 23,
24 would have a similar layout,all of them, and the smaller
ones would have a similar layoutas well, but they all have a
kitchenette and they all are ensuite, obviously.
Okay, so the kitchen has like alittle fridge and yeah, so your

(14:15):
fridge a two an oven, a yeah, soyour fridge a two an oven, a
combi oven.
So you know that's a microwaveand an oven and a two ring hop.
So you can, you can cook inyour own unit if you don't want
to use, and that's that'sgenerally what happens behind
the switch at RS.
Ger would say the biggest chefis Deliveroo, because they're
young people and they're busyyeah.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
No, we see that with the apartments too.
We nearly need to have adesignated requirements to.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
we nearly need to have a designated delivery spot,
the original guidelines pushedto more as this more student
thing where you basically have abedroom, really, and then you
know, you know it's clusteredaround the kitchen, that's six
of each air.
Whatever we surveyed, uh, ourtenants, would you take a bigger
unit for less communal diningspace?
And only seven percent saidthey wouldn't.
Given our background in theGeorgians, we felt we knew what

(15:00):
was the kind of real sweet pointin terms of a studio, a small
studio, a micro studio, let'scall it, and it is.
That's your 20 square metersplus.
So really we focused on gettingas many of them as we possibly
could into Ratmine's house.
Now, the run of windows and thefact that you're in an existing
structure obviously means youend up with some smaller ones,

(15:21):
which actually has taught us abit as well, because the ones
that went the fastest were thesmallest and the biggest, you
know.
So the the best value, yeah,and then the nicest one, the
nicest, yeah so if I was doingit again, I would look for some
mix of 18 and then 23s and youknow if you're doing a new build
, for example.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
You know a lot of the sort of nonsense political chat
about this has been.
Oh, I heard someone describethem as modern day tenements,
but that's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Like the building standards still exist, so they
have to be built to the samestandards.
They are just a different modeof accommodation and the 29
square meters we provide perunit, or say per resident yeah
is this is actually the same asthe 29 meters you get as someone
sharing a one bed, for example.

(16:09):
Yeah, of your personal space,if you like.
I I sorry this is from the.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
That's from the report that the department of
housing did for yeah, but I'mjust doing the sum in my head
here, because I'm looking at ourown units and thinking, yeah,
they had 20 plus five plus four.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
I don't know where the five plus four came from.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
I don't know where most of their figures come from.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
to be honest, but let's say that they're correct.
So maybe our co-living isproviding a bit more, but it's
just providing it acommunity-based format, like
social isolation is a big issue,loneliness is a big issue.
People do relocate more, theymove job more than they would
have done in the past and theymove to new cities and this is a

(16:50):
great way for them to buildthat community, build that sense
of belonging, and that's whatit does provide.
And we run community events,events, numerous events each
week.
Uh, you know, we have a week, acalendar of anyone's look that
we throw up on our on our um, onour instagram, etc.
To foster that, you know, andto drive that community
engagement and make people feellike they're part of something,

(17:12):
but also to give them a Dublinexperience.
Those tours, etc.
Whether it's Glendalough or atour of Dublin city centre, are
all part of that.
You know.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, I mean the point that you made there about,
um, social isolation andcommunity.
I don't know if you've got achance.
I say you know the thing aboutPortaferri, or if you'd seen
about Portaferri, about theco-housing thing that they do in
Northern Ireland.
It's not the same thing at all,by the way, but I think it's
just interesting that there's avery different attitude outside

(17:41):
of ireland to all this kind ofstuff.
Right, so in the north, andwe'll put up a car, I'll put up
a link to port of ferry.
It's where they're just sort ofsaying well, we're going to
build lots of different types oftenures in the one place, so
we're going to put old peoplewith young people, so that we
don't end up with these sort ofghost streets where there's a
whole lower houses with 90 yearolds in them, and then the
students are, you know,somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
The planning that O'Connell and Properties got in
Cork.
Henry J Lyons did.
It has a similar idea.
You know they're, they're large.
They actually can't build itbecause, planning again, the
fertilizer business that's inthere is meant to move and they
couldn't get planning to movebecause they have to build a new
bridge, mon Ireland.
Yeah, exactly, because thewhole port in Cork is moving
down into the harbour, down theriver, okay, and it's freeing up

(18:25):
a lot of development land inthe city itself.
But again, it was stage of life.
That was their whole planningidea.
Why can you not?
For example, you have a largesite, you want to achieve
density?
Okay, rather than say, than sayjust doing all apartments, you
could do some more high densityco-living or other forms of high
density apartments which mightbe allowed in the future and are

(18:46):
allowed in other countries, butthen you could sit them
alongside actual family housesand then you could actually
stick in a senior block, yeah,and that's all in one community.
You families, 25 to 34 yearolds and say, 65 to 80 year olds
, yeah, all living together in aspecific or circumstance,
specific housing, yeah, like wejust have such an idea of one

(19:08):
size fits all, like they wereall just going to buy something
and live in it forever?
Yeah, but how many?
Like anyone from, when I leftCork and moved to Dublin, I must
have lived in about, I'd say,five different rental properties
in about eight years.
You know, you know you movearound, you get a promotion oh,
I've got a bit more money, I'llget a nicer place.
You know you meet someone, youmove in with them.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
You know there's so much happens, particularly in
that earlier age and when you'reyounger you want to be with,
like your mates and this is theother thing that drives me
insane about this like banco-living.
Co-living is happeningeverywhere in Dublin, but it's
just in an old house that hasseven bedrooms.

(19:50):
Yeah, and these bedrooms arebeing traded essentially on a
grey market.
Yes, and actually in Rathmines,a group of my friends lived in
a house called the Casa and Idon't know how many people lived
there over the years, but itwas a lot.
That's co-living.
It had one kitchen.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, yeah, and wasn't professionally managed
and cleaned.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
Oh, it was the absolute opposite of being
professionally managed, whateverthat is, yeah, you know.
So this idea that we, you know,I have it in my notes here
Minister O'Brien's directiverestricting like it was a ban
yes, they banned it.
They banned it because ofpolitical kind of craziness Like

(20:30):
what, was there something thathappened?

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, I think Owen Murphy and he's admitted this
himself since got the PR allwrong.
He got very bogged down in it.
Yeah, he started gettingquestioned on it and he was like
nearly fighting his corner toomuch rather than just being very
guys.
This is a stage of life, partof the solution.
Yeah, you know it's 0.05% ofbed spaces have got planning in
Dublin.
Yeah, it's for a particularsegment of the market.
You know you need to move on.
This is what you know.
There's a lot bigger thingshappening here, but he got very
bogged down in fighting it, yeah, and then everyone just it was

(21:06):
a big pile on.
Basically, yeah, populous pileon, it's more that them and us
thing right.
Monday tenements carry on.
Yeah, If a developer wants it tobe stopped Exactly Playing the
man, not the ball, the usualcarry on so and it was all that.
And Darrell O'Brien, when hewas in opposition, made hay on

(21:27):
that.
And then when he got in heordered a report.
The report is actually from theDepartment of Housing, is very
like the stuff I would disagreewith in it, but it's actually a
good report and it's actually,when you read it it's clearly
pro co-living and it's trying tonudge him that way.
And it gives him four options,three of which are keeping it

(21:48):
and with just different bits.
One it stays where it is and weupdate the guidelines.
One we take it out of apartmentguidelines and create its own
guidelines.
And then one we just kind ofstay silent on it.
We remove the guidelines but welet it up to local authorities.
And then, number three, numberfour, sorry, we ban it.
And then the second paragraphsays just so you know, minister,
nothing has ever been banned byministerial order, by

(22:12):
ministerial planning guidance.
It's the only thing ever.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Oh, and nuclear power stations.
Nuclear power stations andco-living they're the only two
things.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, yeah I think nuclear power stations is done
legislatively?

Speaker 1 (22:22):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
But for ministerial order, like ministerial planning
guidelines.
It is the only thing to haveever been banned and it was a
pure political decision.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Oh, what urgent action right.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
I'm sorry, and we all and you know there's a lot of
banging on in Ireland and youknow a lot of it, rightly so,
about that.
Our planning system has to bedemocratic.
What's democratic about one manwith a stroke of a pen banning
a form of development?
You know?

Speaker 1 (22:47):
So, yeah, well when people say they want the
planning system to be democratic, what they mean is they want it
to be for their, their opinionto be.
They don't mean it to bedemocratic because, you know, we
have elections, we electgovernments, they appoint
planners, they make decisions,and then we just say, yeah, but
forget about all that, becausewe're going to have a judge

(23:08):
overrule that.
Yeah, so there's again one manyes and it is almost always a
man, by the way who's justsaying no, yeah, so there's
nothing democratic about any ofthis that's just like a veil of
bullshit that we absolutely know, oh, it's very consulting.
I mean it's absolute nonsense,but okay, it got banned.
But before it got banned, therewere some planning permissions

(23:30):
granted.
There were Yep, you guys havemine's house, you have another
one on Cork Street.
Yeah, liberty's house, yeah,which?

Speaker 2 (23:37):
is going to is actually quite close to PC.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Okay, and how many bedrooms is that?
That's 371.
Okay, so that's.
Is that the biggest one?
It is In Dublin, right, yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
We bought that planning.
We didn't plan it ourselves.
Okay, because we couldn't.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
You know there was some like head's teeth at the
end.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, it has differences to Ratmine's house.
It's obviously larger, it'smore of all one type 18 square
meters, but it's got a kick-assground floor and basement
amenity space Okay.
Ground floor and basementamenity space Okay, like it's
really off the charts.
We brought in a concreteAmsterdam based interior
architect to work on it, okay,and I think they've done a

(24:19):
fantastic job.
Oh, excellent so it will beamenity wise, I think it would
set a new Okay, and when's thatopening?
First resident 1st of September, okay, so very close by, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I must try and head over andhave a peek at that.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
If it was Absolutely, by the way, I'd say everyone I
mean everyone is welcome to tourany of our assets.
We really want to get the wordout there.
Yeah, you know, because a lotof people come to my house and
go.
Oh my God, I and you're likewhat did you think?
It would be, or they're shockedthat it's not a tenement,
Exactly yeah.
Do you think there'd be like?

Speaker 1 (24:52):
no more than the floors.
We must look up who called themtenements because it was.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
It was one councillor , was it yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:00):
So that's so.
Is that you guys for co-living?
Did you have any other ones?
That were, and so it's past thepoint now where the plannings
are going to be expiring, arethey?
It's too late to.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, there's one above Jervis Street car park,
but I hope you get to oh God inheaven.
Yeah, yeah, yeah and actuallythere's a fantastic one in the
Players Factory, but I don'tknow where that's all left now
with the judicial review etcetera, and will that get
extended or will they build it?

Speaker 1 (25:26):
going to extend the plannings?
They said, yeah, I guess theywon't be extending the co-living
planning.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah maybe not, I'm not sure.
Yeah, but it is.
It is very cool really, highceiling heights.
You know it's got the bigmassive windows, oh, yeah, yeah
no, probably be an expensive job, but and a really cool ground
floor area, like the plans of itare very cool.
But we are we're starting tolook in abroad now, to be honest
with you, we're looking to ukand just for for the context
there.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Is it banned anywhere else in Europe?

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Oh no, they're embracing it.
In fact it's gone the other way.
So it kind of started in the UK.
Well, you know, stuff got builtin the UK on other plannings
hotel planning, student planning, right, okay, like planning.
Like Irish planning is soprescriptive, and other places
it tends not to be asprescriptive.
But so in the UK kind of laidit out there in Ireland, in the
UK, and it continues to grow inthe UK.

(26:15):
Madrid has recently brought itin.
Now it was already happening inMadrid, but the local mayor got
his arms around and said, allright, let's actually put some
structure around this.
So it's happening in Barcelona,it's happening in Amsterdam,
it's happening all over theNordics, obviously happening in
Germany, where they have alltypes of you know, they have
everything from, you know,senior housing, micro apartments
, co-living.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
They're very open that way so pretty much the only
place that is banned and nothappening is Ireland, wow so I
just you know because and I getcriticized for it I don't want
this to turn into like fuckingIreland yeah, yeah, yeah even
though it is and we all knowthat the economics of it.
So you know we're apartment,what we were um.
The news is that now apartmentdevelopers, the economics of

(26:59):
apartment development now, arejust shot in Ireland.
There it's forget it, you can'tdo it.
They're different for co-living.
If we magically got rid ofministers ban, you'd be able to
still do it.
Absolutely.
Yeah, what's driving that?
Is it like pure, like revenueper square foot basically?

Speaker 2 (27:15):
yeah, it's like a student, you know.
Yeah, I know in your recentarticle you'd say, yeah, we're
doing some student stuff nowbecause that's, and we look at
that and say, well, actuallyit's very similar to an
apartment building.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
You know it's more like it's an eight bed apartment
, yeah, and you know the revenueper square foot significantly
higher as a result of that,exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
and like and the revenue persquare foot significantly higher
as a result of that.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and like and the
revenue per square.
You can just rentalize morespace.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
And no parking and stuff like that no parking.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Exactly, yeah, that's the main reason.
Like your cost is student anddepending, you know, you
probably have nicer amenitiesstudent a little bit plus, maybe
Okay.
Student a little bit plus,maybe okay.
In terms of your cost persquare meter, yeah, but it is
exactly that you can reallydrive your rent per square foot
because it's just a moreefficient build.
You know, it's kind of if youlook at ratmine's house, you
walked onto a corridor inratmine's house or liberty's

(28:01):
house, you think you're standingin a hotel.
You know it's a corridor rightwith doors, you know.
And then you have your communalspaces on each floor and a
communal space down below so.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
So that's on a per floor basis that you do the
kitchens and stuff, yeah, whichis something peculiar to Irish
co-living.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
In the main, the UK they centralise a lot more of
that and Ireland again they havethis idea around student of
clusters and therefore eachcluster must have a kitchen.
Wouldn't it be better if therewas one kitchen, because then
there could be like 20 peoplethere, like it would be way more
fun, exactly, and we've endedup in Ratmine's house with a lot
of space that's underutilized,yeah, so we have these great

(28:40):
kitchen lounges on the southwest corner of the building
stacked on top of each other.
Okay, and they're beautifulspaces, great spaces, but we
struggle to activate them, likewe've activated the top floor
one, because it kind of made itinto a cocktail lounge vibe and
we have Friday night drinksthere and stuff oh cool yeah.
So we tried to theme them as wewent down.
We've won, that's got someco-working in it, and then we've

(29:01):
made one into kind of more of agames loop vibe.
So we find that we can activatesome but to act like they just
all don't get used all don't getused.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
You might have one person in one on one floor at
one particular time and it'sprobably over provisioned.
Like all immunity space inireland like we have this with
the apartment buildings too,we've really nice immunities
it's way over provisioned like,yeah, like you've eight square
meters per unit, like it's a lot.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
It works a little bit better in liberty's house
because bigger, so we have abigger ground floor area, yeah,
and so we've kind of you know an, you know an open plan ground
floor area, which hopefully wewill be able to activate That'll
attract people right?
Yeah, exactly, and hopefully wecan activate that.
Okay, and, as you know, the gymis the most used space.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, yeah, depending on the day.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and we find that that's the one
amenity.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
But the construction costs are otherwise broadly
similar, like per square footright to student.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, broadly similar to student, but it really lends
itself to restricted citycentre sites it lends itself to
office to resi which Ratmine'shouse is.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah, because that office to resi because this is
another thing that drives me madis people going on about the
office to resi Like, oh, weconvert them into apartments,
affordable houses?
Yeah, Talking through theirhole, absolutely.
We convert them into apartments, affordable houses.
Talking through their hole,absolutely.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Because you can't do it right like we I don't know
how many we looked at it's notpossible to do it right no it's
not, but it is possible withstudent, it is possible with
co-living and it is possiblewith hotel and that's why Dublin
City is refusing plannings anda number of conversions, trying
to get people to do resi.
Yeah, so the one above the onpost inside in town which they
refused planning, yeah, thedeveloper quite rightly went on

(30:36):
board and said this is zoned forhotels.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
Why are they not allowed to build a hotel here?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (30:42):
And you can see what you know Dumb City are trying to
push people towards residential, but that doesn't work.
You need some pull, and thatpull is viability, and you get
that through allowing moreflexible forms of accommodation.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Because it's just a.
It's a pretty basic thing, likemost office building, like
their, the grid that they'rebuilt on doesn't allow you to
comply with the guidelines forapartments, right In terms of
aspects, dual aspect being Dualaspect, daylight, sunlight.
Like you can't, no, do it,you've got to cut a hole in the
middle of the building, yeah,and then you might as well knock
it down, and they won't let youknock it down because it's
carbon emissions.

(31:14):
Yeah, yeah, so you know it's abit of a bind Chinese finger
trap.
Yeah, so you're going abroad.
Yeah, we're starting to look.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
I saw the other day that you have a UK division now.
Yeah, we've opened the.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
UK office, james Ghent, who we used to work with,
so myself and Tim found abusiness.
Then Dave Hickey joined us andDave was in Goldman and James
used to work with him there.
So James has joined us now aswell.
I'm very excited about that.
James is a great guy.
He's got loads of ideas and isgetting stuck into them, and one
of them is bringing ourco-living model and operating
platform to the UK To the UK andelsewhere.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
I assume then after that, yeah, I think UK is.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
we've looked at Madrid previously.
It's just language law planningbit of a leap for us.
Yeah, no habla espanol.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
You have to, you have to learn.
I mean, it's the thing.
It's not that simple in Europe.
No, because once you leave thethe uk, things are quite
different.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yes, um, we found that too, looking abroad, and
you go, yeah so, look, I thinkthat's that's definitely an
option in the future andpossibly, like we kind of
skirted around milan previously,but I think now we've changed
in the uk.
I think london's very suited tothis.
Yeah, there's a lot of officeto raise the opportunities, yeah
, in some good areas actually,and so that's pretty exciting

(32:35):
and they have a much different.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
I mean, I know that the planning rules are different
, but they have a much differentattitude to things like this
too, when it comes to converting, you know, because in the uk
you can convert an office toother uses without planning
permission in some casespermitted use, yeah, yeah, yeah,
um, which is a real like it's.
It seems to be a much moreforward looking yeah attitude.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
I presume there will be issues like you know it's
never.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
It's never, simply, yeah, they have nimbies too,
right, they're everywhere theyseem to embrace.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Co-living is the main thing.
Yeah, they have new guidelinesfor london which are not far
away from what we're building inIreland actually A bit more
sensible around the dininglounge space, but a similar
enough concept and I think wecould definitely bring our
expertise and our learnings fromDublin over there.
And build some cool kithopefully.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
What about the appetite like from capital
providers?
What's the appetite like fromcapital providers?
What's the appetite there fromfrom investors?
Do people want this?
Are they?
I mean, I know everyone talksabout beds and sheds.
Right, it's like I've got agreat strategy.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
No one's thought about, yeah, exactly, beds, and
sheds.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
But you know, this is kind of a it's not that common
right in the.
I mean, I know it's in the ukbut it's not that common is
there a good?
Appetite out there frominvestors for it.
There is absolutely yeah, yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Look, there's a bit of education, like anything, but
a lot of investors are lookingfor alternative bed strategies
which give them a slightlybetter yield and cost,
particularly in the currentindustry environment.
Yeah, probably why we're seeinga lot of sort of of all things
hotels, most probably why we'reseeing a lot of sort of of all
things hotels and students atthe moment and less resi,
because it's just yielding costsis shocking and co-living gives

(34:16):
you that.
So and then for us having theoperational expertise from
Ireland and able to show themwhat our tenant looks like, how
long they stay, for you know howmuch it costs to run the
building.
That takes a lot of the mysteryout of it, because then it's
just, this is just a bedstrategy with a higher yield and
cost.
I can get comfortable aroundall this stuff because guys have
all the data and off you go.

(34:37):
So that bit is not difficult, abit easier.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Your strategy then.
Do you see it focused on theco-living thing in the UK or
maybe in Europe, or do you havea wider plan with your platform
to have it across differentliving sectors?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, I would love to extend into traditional
apartments PRS, BTR, whateveryou want to call them.
I think that would be a naturalmove for us.
Good cross-selling too.
Right, Exactly, Exactly.
So you know, someone's comingto the end of their one year in
Ratmine's house, yeah, andyou're going.
You can extend in Ratmine'shouse.
Or here's a one-bedroomapartment in Dundrum.

(35:13):
So I think there's greatsynergies there.
Yeah, there would be.
So that, and that would havebeen my Irish strategy as we
were going and building theco-living.
Unfortunately, massiveviability issues currently in
residential, so that'll have toa pin will have to be put in
that for the time being.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And what about like nursinghomes or senior care?
So we're already, we're innursing homes.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Okay, all right, I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we'rebuilding a platform there as
well.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Okay, How's that?
Because you read a lot in thepaper about, you know
receiverships and companies.
Are you also doing theoperational side of that?

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, yeah, companies , how are you also doing the
operational side of that?
Well, we have an operationalteam which is separate to us.
Okay, guys, we trust to knowethos care, who are doing a
fantastic job.
Okay, all right.
So we built that, though, fromscratch, brought people with
nursing home expertise together.
Okay, we worked with them andwe brought in the capital.
Then, um, okay, back it as well.
So we'll be at target is 1500beds and we're, you know, I'd
say over a thousand.
Now, anyway, yeah, wow and goodbusiness.
People are still getting old.
Exactly, yeah, it as well.
So we'll be at target is 1500beds and we're, you know, I'd
say over a thousand.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Now, anyway, yeah, Wow, and good business.
People are still getting old,exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, and look it's a it's, it's a space that again
has had its issues.
I think once you're focused onthe resident and care and build
from there, you can.
You can do it properly.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, are you developing them from them from
scratch, like a?

Speaker 2 (36:31):
lot of things in Ireland.
You can mainly buy them forless than you can build them
yeah.
Isn't that crazy.
Yeah, it's such a matter Likethat alone is such an issue for
a society.
Yeah, you know, it's just I'mgoing to leave that there, and I
could go into that for ages.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
No, but it's true.
That week I was trying toexplain to Killian Woods.
We have apartment buildingsthat are five years old, that
are not worth what it would costto build them today.
Yeah, that's insane.
It's insane.
Yeah, you know exactly.
I mean, they're modern, yeah,a-rated like yeah, and we

(37:03):
couldn't do it today.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
No, exactly yeah, and so it's the same in our
students in Dublin.
You can marginally build them,but we are building one in
Dublin at the moment.
Yeah, but we're more doing itbecause we want that Dublin
presence, the returns.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
So this is the lowest returns of our portfolio the
one we're building, the onewe're taking development risk on
, not the one we're buying andplugging in.
And like you buy all, some youbuy off receivers, some you buy
off people who've run them verywell but just are the time of
life when they want to retire orwhatever.
And COVID, I think, knocked alot out of a lot of those sort
of owner operators.
But yeah, the lowest returns,you know, in our portfolio are

(37:42):
the one we're building.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
So upside down stuff, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, and so we're doing that.
Senior care, I think, is a veryinteresting space and it's kind
of amalgamated a lot of thosesort of expertise we have from
the residential side and thenfrom the clinical side and
nursing homes.
Again, though, we've a completelack of inflexibility in our

(38:09):
planning system.
There's lack of inflexibilityin our planning system.
This one size fits all again wehave, this is an apartment, you
know, and of course they'll sayto you oh well, you know, if
you go to the planning party,they might, you know, they might
allow you do this.
But you're like, but I don'thave to go, I have to buy the
site, go talk to them.
They go no, no, we're notallowing you to do that.
You know, when you're buildingsenior accommodation, it's

(38:35):
probably it's a lot of one bedsand then it's amenity space.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, that's what gets built internationally and
they have to be designed a bitdifferently.
Right, the bathrooms andeverything have to be designed
for people of an older care andthen you can't, yeah, transform
that into something for someonewho's 30, exactly afterwards.
So there needs to be adesignated class.
Yeah, yeah, and they've beentalking about this for 10 years.
I know we we had a Docky yearsago and you know it was back
when the things weren't reallygoing that well.

(38:57):
It was hard to get planning.
We thought, you know, maybesenior care I mean, it would be
ideal, right, it's like chimneypots very mature area.
10 years have passed, nothing,yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
So actually I have a good table which shows in
Germany all the different thingsyou can build.
You know, and it includes allthat you know, obviously, your
regular apartments, your seniorsenior apartments, you have your
micro apartments, you have yourco-living.
In Ireland we have an apartmentwhich is meant to suit everyone
from the age of, say, 21 to 80.

(39:27):
Regardless of your financialcircumstances, regardless of
your financial circumstances areyour time of life where people
just need different things.
And again, sorry on the seniorcare bit like lots of loneliness
, lots of social isolation.
Yeah, imagine having thosepeople living in lovely one bed
apartments.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Because they're not people that need to go to a
nursing home.
No, they're just people thatmaybe are on their own a lot of
the time, but they'll have atrip or fall button where the
concierge will come up to themand say, oh, you're not.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
okay, now I'll ring the doctor, or whatever you know
, and you can have varyinglevels of clinical care in them,
yeah, and it even you know to adegree as well it allowed, say,
one partner is quite ill, yeah,and the other is perfectly
healthy, and they could staytogether.
They can stay together, youknow so.
There's so many advantages toit.
But again, we just can't graspthat nettle.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
I will rant on that.
So that's a dereliction of dutyon behalf of policymakers to
not have something like that inplace, absolutely Like you're
just letting people down there.
Yeah, yeah, because peoplewould build that stuff right, of
course they would.
It's like it's a guaranteedmarket segment.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yes, everyone gets old, exactly and, by the way,
other massive advantage weobviously talked about all the
empty nesters.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Yeah, and all the houses right free up all the
homes I know, but like you'd beblue in the face telling people
the housing, you know thehousing ladder, yeah, there's
two types.
There's the one like you wantto buy your house and get more
valuable, but the housing ladderis stages of life.
Yeah, yeah, but there's justlike anyway, there's no point.
I asked you here because Iwanted to talk about Colibri we

(40:58):
have done that, but I what I,what I kind of want to get to,
is All right.
So there's a multi-strandquestion here.
Do you think there's anypossibility of the ban being
reversed?
Right, and rather I assume theanswer to that is yes, but
what's your pitch?
Why should it be reversed?
Do you think that there's apolitical off-ramp for the

(41:24):
government with this?

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yes, I do.
Well, first thing, they shoulddo like they have a report from
the Department of Housing whichis very pro-co-living.
As I said, it's a reportprovided to Darrell O'Brien.
He took option for yeah, sothey can start with that.
Okay, so this is coming fromwithin the department.
Okay.
And I also think there's apolitical off-ramp in that
there's a certain amount builtand they can go and say well, we

(41:48):
don't like this, we like that,so they need to engage with
industry, something they're notgreat at.
They can also then look atwhat's happening internationally
.
So within all that, there isdefinitely a way forward.
I think I spoke about thebenefits of it.
It's a stage of life productwhich has massive benefits in
terms of the socio-economicsystem within our larger cities.

(42:10):
Okay, oh, we draw a lot ofpeople to them, whether we like
it or not.
Yeah, we've a lot ofmultinationals hiring people
from all over the world, andthey should not be living in
hotels.
Are you know the like whichthey are?
Yeah, from dublin to cork togal, so it provides a great
landing pad there.
So it's definitely needed.
It definitely has internationalacceptance and we just need to

(42:34):
get over the populist angle thatwas preached about it.
And the way to do that is toeducate people, and educate
people by showing internationalexample and showing what has
been, on a positive sense,delivered in Ireland.
I'm not saying every co-livingdevelopment is positive or well
done, but there is enoughevidence there to go.
This is what we want.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah Well, because not every residential
development is well done, or?

Speaker 2 (42:56):
is positive either right, Exactly.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing is perfect, but no, it
just yeah, Like when you put itin the context of it's the only
thing that's been banned byministerial order.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
I'm sorry to hit another point here.
To hit our 50,000 units, we aregoing to have to increase
density, and to increase density, you know, we're going to have
to allow things like co-livingand other flexible, high density
accommodation, and even then,even then, right.
But look, everyone derided onMurphy 2018, we were building

(43:27):
2000 apartments.
He tried and did some very goodthings.
Everyone derided on Murphy 2018we were building 2000
apartments.
He tried and did some very goodthings.
We got to about 10-11 thousandand going up and going up.
Yeah, now we're going the otherway, since someone banned
co-living and BTI.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
They went fucking with it, right, exactly.
And this is the thing thatdrives me crazy.
When they brought in, say, theRPZ and this is the thing that
drives me crazy.
When they brought in, say, theORPZ, the rent control, that was
just.
It was when they brought thatit was just starting to get hard
for us to let apartments.
Yes, we were starting to see abit of vacancy.
Yes, right, and they're likenow is the time to halt

(44:02):
construction.
Yeah, when we're just gettingto the point where rents are
flatlining, and then they justsent them back.
I mean, actually, they thinkthat this is the funny thing.
They always think there's likegreedy developers.
Orpz was the best thing thatcould have happened to a lot of
people because it choked offsupply well for developers in
particular.
Yeah, and it drove rents up yeah, like now, it was very short
term, because now the developersare screwed because you can't

(44:23):
build anything.
Yeah, but you know, for thatbrief period actually assets
that were under constructionalready Orpy said was fantastic
Absolutely Because it choked offfuture supply and there's no
competition and now we'rerunning at 99% occupancy.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and only going to get worse.
By the way, like there'sactually some the end of the
Owen Murphy era, particularly inthe city centre, if you have,
etc.
Will be delivered over the nextsort of six to twelve months.
Yeah, after that there isnothing.
Yeah, there's nothing.
There's nothing.
Yeah, it is going to like,obviously, presuming the economy

(44:55):
is on the same track, it isgoing to be an absolute mess.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
I actually don't.
I don't believe that peoplefully, and we always say that
all the time.
The problem with the propertyis we just talk to each other.
Yeah, yeah, we all live in abubble.
I don't think it's wellunderstood just how little
construction is going to beongoing, uh, in a year's time.
Absolutely, particularlyapartments, really bad.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, unless it's government
backed, you know, lda orwhatever you know, and sorry
that's even run into a speedbump recently.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
So um, well, I mean, they're like that's another
thing, the lda.
They're able to buy apartmentscheaper than they can build them
.
And yet, like the governmentsolution appears to be like
pouring money into the LDA tobuild more apartments.
It's just like more and moreand more money every year, same
result, yes, inefficientsolutions.
Why not turn around and changeit Like?
To me, it seems like co-livingis such an easy win.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Just do it, yeah yeah , it's not going to take over
the world, by the way, no, likeit was 0.05% of bed space, as I
said, if that gets up to youknow, 0.1% or whatever it is,
but it is essential, I believe,for our future sort of economic
prosperity in terms ofattracting young professionals

(46:05):
to these cities, because, yeah,you know where are they going to
land, where are they going tolive um, okay, look, I've kept
you here for an hour.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Uh, peter, final thoughts on anything really.
Um, and then I have the magicwand.
Okay, you can have your magicwand if now, if you want it.
Okay, now the rules.
Yes, because you have peoplegoing on a 10 minute magic
wander, right, okay, it's one'sone thing.
One thing you can change, onething.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
And not co-living.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
obviously you can change co-living if you want to
use it.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
on that yeah, okay, wow, you know Apartment size
standards.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Really Okay.
Yeah, and what would you do tothem?
Make them smaller?

Speaker 2 (46:51):
I'd make them smaller .
In city central locations,specific locations.
Yeah, I think we've got toembrace the micro apartment
really Like.
If you really want to produceaffordable, you've got to look
what they do in Germany.
You know, and like Germany says, it has a rental crisis, but
you can still get an apartmentfor 800 euros in a city center,
you know Right.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
You know, but like those apartments are pretty
basic, by the way, just to saylook at pictures online.
They're not, you know theydon't even come with kitchens.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
A lot no no, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't
go that far.
Yeah, but you know, if you wantto provide, you know,
affordable accommodation, andnot just like in the bang in the
middle of dublin, but like inits suburbs as well, you gotta
look at standards, size,standards no, it's not for every
unit, but again, having someoptions, right, having options.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
So how small is a micro apartment?

Speaker 2 (47:29):
They start at 25 square metres, but they don't
have then the bells and whistlesof as much amenity and communal
space.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
So 25 square metres is a 25 to 40 square metres.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
That's what size they are.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Okay, so let's take the smallest one right, Because
people want to be alarmist 25square meters.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
King-size bed, yeah.
Bathroom with a shower and nobath, yeah, full kitchen.
Full kitchen dining table andchairs and a couch.
Like you fit all that in 25square meters easy, okay.
Like we fit all that into 23square meters in that mine's
house, yeah, and perfectlylivable spaces yeah, and if you
had a lot of those.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
And it's not saying every apartment needs to be tiny
, no, but just some of them needto be tiny, exactly.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
And we're not saying that, like, you can have big
ones as well, and we're notsaying we want like a family in
there, no, but half the housinglist in.
And then you build them in theright places and everyone's
focused.
They're so focused on what's inthe building, what's outside
the building.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yeah, that gets ignored altogether.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Like, what's the street?
Like what's on the street?
Where's the nearest park?
You know, are we not meant tolive as communities?
Like, are we just meant to bein this?
Little?
Stay in here in my apartment.
It's nice and big, I'm notgoing out to talk to anyone.
Yeah, whereas they've totallygot a different idea.
In the continent, you goeveryone like.
Paris is always my example.
Yeah, minimum size 25 squaremeters.
The best living city in Europe,probably in the world.

(48:53):
In the world, I would say yeahin the world and everyone goes.
Oh, in every corner in Paris,there's a lingerie and there's a
cafe.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
I wonder why.
I wonder why.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Exactly Because it's the highest density in Europe.
Yeah, it's not tall buildings,by the way no five, six stories,
right in most cases.
Right, that's what they are,but like you're telling me that
living a 25 square meter likewell kitted out 25 square meter
apartment in Paris is not agreat place to live.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Yeah, so you heard it here.
First, we should all move toParis.
You don't have to convince me.
Yeah, I fucking love that placeand, like you say, yeah,
there's bakeries everywhere,there's parks everywhere.
There's stuff to do.
Read any books.
I didn't tell you about this inadvance, so it's really not
fair to spring in on.
You do read a lot of books.
Yeah, what's the last book orlast good book that you read?

Speaker 2 (49:40):
uh, the robert fabry series called alexander's legacy
, and when alexander legacy, andwhen Alexander the Great died,
he didn't name an heir, he saidto the greatest.
So all his generals basicallystarted fighting each other for
the different territories.
Hunger Games, hunger Games,exactly, yeah, okay.
So Ptolemy obviously ended upwith Egypt, for example.

(50:01):
Okay, syracuse ended up withPersia and Syracusian Empire
came out.
So the number of great sort ofancient world empires came up
out of it, because Alexander, inhis mad rampage through the
East, had conquered all theseplaces and kind of drove on and
left Othello in charge.
And then they all, they brokeit up and there was a massive,

(50:23):
basically Greek civil war for anumber of years and they all
ended up with their little patchafterwards Fantastic.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
Yeah, so like a deconsolidation.
Yes, exactly, I wonder, didthey have co-living?
I mean, they probably basicallydid have co-living.
Of course they did.
There was no other options.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
A country village is co-living, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, actually, that'sAll the little little cottages.
Yeah, local pub, yeah, it'syour communal space.
You know like that is actually.
You know everyone says we'velost that sense of community.
You wonder why.
You know.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Yeah, because we're all inside on our phones.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
In Deliveroo.
Yeah, peter, thanks so much.
There's a lot in there.
Um, I remain to be.
I just think I I just don'tunderstand it.
It's, it's such a stupid thingto kowtow to a few newspaper
articles about a name call.
I mean, it's still.
It's like the name calling thevulture.
Funny.
It's the same old thing again.

(51:18):
One section of people decidethey're against something, they
start name calling andmudslinging.
Government panic yeah, pressthe panic button.
Yeah, everyone suffers exactlydown the line so like I don't.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, I mean, that's a surprise, it's not like we've
heard this story.
Yeah, a million times a milliontimes unfortunately yeah, well,
hopefully it'll.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
It'll turn around and change, because we do need
these things, we need differentthings, we need senior living,
we need co-living, we needeverything for stages of life
and, uh, I wish you all the best.
I I look forward to having avisit down to to quark street.
I think that's going to bethat's.
Uh, you're coming to me to seethat too?
Absolutely, yeah, that's yourtarget.
I mean, I know not you, butlike it's.

(52:00):
It's targeted to people likeyou, if they were around yeah,
that's good to hear.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
There you go, yeah excellent.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
All right, peter, thanks a lot.
We'll leave it there.
Very much, guys, that was greatthe build is produced by carrie
fernandez and me rick larkin.
Music is by Cass.