In today’s episode, Counselor, author, and educator Dr. Mark Mayfield equips pastors, ministry leaders, and volunteers with practical tools to support mental health in the church. This conversation between Drs. Zach and Mark bridges clinical wisdom, spiritual formation, and the realities of shepherding people through emotional struggles. Dr. Mayfield unpacks how to recognize signs of distress, create safe spaces for honest conversations, and respond to crisis moments with clarity and compassion. He discusses the importance of boundaries in ministry, the role of community in healing, and simple, evidence-based practices that help churches foster emotional resilience, spiritual growth, and relational safety.
Dr. Mayfield’s Website: https://www.drmayfield.com/
Pick Up Your Copy of The Mental Health Handbook For Ministry: https://shorturl.at/cA3oE
Pick Up Your Copy of The Hope & Healing for Loneliness Workbook: https://aacc.net/product/hope-healing-for-loneliness-a-guide-to-flourish-in-community/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Build Different is a production of the American Association of
Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you
can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread
the Gospel, and provide mental health resources and training to
people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's
Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,
(00:27):
your host, and each week I come to you exclusively
on the Life Audio podcast network. I'm proud to partner
with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family
friendly podcasts for a new generation. I Built Different. Our
mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help
push you past your limits and reach goals you never
thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So, then, just
as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live your
(00:50):
lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen.
Now let's roll on today's show. I'm joined by someone
whose work lives at the intersection of faith, mental health,
and resilience in the church, doctor Mark Mayfield. Doctor Mayfield
is a licensed professional counselor, a trusted voice in Christian
(01:13):
mental health circles and the author of multiple books, including
his latest that releases today as of this recording, the
Mental Health Handbook for Ministry. He's passionate about helping the
church better support those who are struggling with anxiety, depression, trauma, addiction, loneliness,
and so much more, and he equips the church to
help people grow through their pain. No matter who you are,
(01:34):
this conversation will certainly bless you, doctor Mayfield, my friend,
thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Hey, as we begin, we're here seeded just kind of
backstage at the AACC twenty twenty five United World Conference.
Seven thousand people sold out, crowd packing this place out,
the energy's rise and representing all fifty states, thirty countries.
We did the research this last night. I man, just
fascinating what God is doing. I just wanted to ask up. Clearly,
(02:01):
we'll dive into some of the research you've done on
loneliness and more. But community is necessary. Fellowship is necessary,
especially in the times that we find ourselves in culturally.
Speak to just the excitement that you have coming too
event like this.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Oh man, it's we market on our calendars. My family's
all here with me, so my three kids, my wife,
and it becomes this marked. You know, we after every
world conference, we put it on the calendar and we
just you know, tick down every week every month waiting
for it. And it's just so much fun. On the
way over here, got stopped by like ten people and
(02:33):
I remembered one name, so you know, I was doing
I was doing better than usual, but just that kind
of excitement. People are just glad to be here. I
was meeting with somebody that's part of a big treatment
center that's a Christian and she was saying today, she goes,
I'm finally with my people, and that just hit going, like,
we are in the front lines of this mental health crisis,
(02:54):
but we're also in a lot of ways fighting the
field of secular counseling to be heard as quality, clinically
sound Christian mental health professionals. And so when she said that,
like okay, that kind of hit home for me, like
we're with our people, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Absolutely, I love these gatherings because it reminds us that
we're not alone. Sometimes, you know, ministry mental health care
can feel kind of in those silos. But to gather
together to worship God, to honestly lock arm in arm
with one another. It's a comforting feeling. And I'll say this,
we need comfort because the last several years, especially as
(03:32):
if this recording, the last several weeks have been really
chaotic and it's been heartbreaking. And we've seen obviously mental
health disaster strike and run rampant across this country, across
this globe. But I mean we're seeing probably things skyrocketing,
especially fear.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I think fear is at the core of it, all right,
and everybody asks me, why aren't we getting better? You know,
we talk about this a lot at ACC, and really
it comes down to this, the hope of Christ is
not interwoven into what we do like it should be,
which is why we're so passionate about what we do
here at AACC and what I like to do, you know,
and the writing piece and the counseling pieces and that
(04:11):
kind of stuff. But it's yeah, I mean, if you
look at the stats since two thousand and seven, it's
anxiety and depression is almost doubling on itself, and we
have more mental health professionals than ever before. So statistically
we should be getting better, yes, and we're not.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Right, And I think that's what prompted you. I would
assume in your spirit to write a really special piece
of work to really help educate and equip the church
with the necessary language. Because I mean, let's begin here.
I guess a lot of pastors will come to us
and they'll say this, I want to address mental health
from a bullpit. I want to talk about it. I
just don't know how to Mark, I don't know how
(04:48):
to Zach. It's like every time I bring it up,
it almost sounds taboo. It sounds like this new age stuff,
and people I just don't want to say the wrong thing,
so we don't say anything, so they don't say anything.
Indecisions a decision after all, speak to obviously have a
heart again, we just mentioned release of the book was
two day as of this recording. The Mental Health Handbook
for Ministry for the Church, speak to just the heart
(05:10):
behind it all.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Well, it's funny I had this desire. I'm a former pastor,
you know, I guess, once a pastor, always a pastor.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
But I've had this desire for a long time.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
And I've had this idea for a very long time
and published, you know, and presented it to six publishers
and they all said no. And so the seventh one
was Baker Publishing and they said yes, and so they
took a risk on it. But the heart behind it
is that very thing. It's I think we get a
lot of pastors that are just paralyzed by the need
(05:42):
and they think they have to be the end. I'll
be all fix all, and it's like, no, just be
a stopgap, be a presence. And so this book is
essentially a desk reference guide. It's not a read through.
I tell pastors right now, like, you can read through
it if you want to be pretty boring. But if
you want to read through it, read through it, but
grab the tab grab tabs like you tab your Bible
(06:03):
or you tab your r DSM five right, tab right,
and then label it depression chapter, anxiety chapter, LGBTQ plus chapter,
eating disorder chapter, you know the one you you know
working with you know, a high achieving families chapter. Yes,
And when you've got people coming into your church, just
pick it up and tab over to that chapter and
prepare yourself. What does the Bible say about it? What
(06:23):
is it clinically? What should you do? And then when
you're above your pay grade, like what's the next steps?
So that's basically the gist of the book, so that
instead of crippling pastors, it equip them.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I've heard you say in the pastes, even in personal
conversations that I think a lot of churches and even
pastors and ministry leaders they're well meaning, but they're under equipped. Yes,
And so you know, we talk a lot about how
science and scripture they really do go hand in hand,
especially when it's truth based, right effective science. It's going
to backscripture and vice versa. But being able to recognize
(06:56):
then why do the fields of psychology and theology clash
so much? And why have we separated them within the
church so much? What would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I think we don't have an informed understanding. And so
I have this conversation all the time, you know, teaching
at Colorado Christian and the Master's program, students come, you know,
I think bright eyed and like, we're going to do this,
and then they're like, but it's going to go against
my faith. It's going to go against this, And I'm like,
so it take a step back. And what I always
tell them is if we go back to Genesis one
(07:26):
and Genesis two, and justis three the fall of man, right,
that separation from God has disrupted our identity. Our identity,
the idea of identity is to bond to something. We're
not bonding to Christ. We're going to find something else
to bond to. But that yearning of bonding to Christ
is still there. And I said, so, every theorist is
a part of this broken world created the image of God.
(07:47):
Every theorist is trying to make sense of this world
that's broken. So don't you think if we have that
pull towards bonding to Christ and we don't know it,
and we see the brokenness around us, there's going to
be shreds and threads of truth in every single theory
because that's the human condition. We are wanting to find
(08:08):
our purpose and our belonging and our creator, whether we
realize it or not. So I challenge students. I'm teaching
theories of personality right now, and I just challenge my
go find the thread of truth in every theory and
then write it down, bring it back to me, and
let's talk about it, and then how do we integrate that?
Or my new favorite term right now, David Anentwissel uses
this term of reintegration. Yes, right, not integration, because it's
(08:31):
not the first time. It's getting back to the way
that it was meant to be. So how do we
reintegrate these things into our Christian and biblical worldview so
that we can be the best help for that person
in front of us. And so clinical side what we
do pastoral side can be done very effectively.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Absolutely, obviously this book is packed with clinical wisdom, but
also from a biblical worldview. And what I want to
chat about here for a moment is mental health at large.
I think sometimes people don't really understand what it all encompasses.
We know this every time the Bible or Scripture references
the soul. It's very holistic in nature, similar to the
(09:09):
root of the word psychology su k r, which is body,
mind and spirit. It's holistic and so recognizing it's not
just about anxious thoughts or stinking thinking right, or these
cognitive distortions. Yes, that's a part of it, but man,
it is relational at large. Speak to just as you
teach as a professor and as you continue to build
out resources for the church. What is mental health?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
YEA, well, I think you spoke to it just there.
It's the it's the integration or reintegration of those three things.
I think we've as a society have separated it. And
if your body is sick, go to the doctor. If
you're you know, if your mind is go to the
counselor if your soul is stick go to the pastor Well,
what if we were all equipped to handle those things?
And how much of our physical sickness is actually due
(09:56):
to our soul in our mind? You know?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And so.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Of those things, and I think really equipping the pastoral
community to go, like if we have a true theology
of suffering and a truth understanding of what you just said.
You know this the mind, body, spirit, it's it's almost
like you can't unwind or unweave them. They're so interconnected.
(10:20):
And so how do we find ways to engage and
partner with each other instead of fighting each other?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
We I have conversations a lot, and I'm sure you
do too. With euthetic biblical counselors that the Bible only
And I'm like, I don't disagree, but we're missing a
large swath of wisdom in that. So how do we
work together instead of fighting against each other?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And so the same thing with physical doctors. I mean,
I can't tell the times I've fought with physical doctors
to get a sleep deprive DG or you know, something
to go at. Their physical symptoms are a result of
something going on in the brain and their mind. And
let's let's get to the root of it. What do
you talking about? You don't know what you're talking about.
I'm like, maybe I do, yes, absolutely, And let's have
(11:05):
those conversations instead of be fighting.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And that's why I think I respect and appreciate about
you so much, Mark, is that you have a love
for the difficult conversations. You're willing to lean in, You're
willing to show up. In this book alone. You cover
some hard topics depression, trauma, grief, self harm, personality disorders,
so much more things that again the church maybe doesn't
(11:29):
feel equipped or maybe doesn't feel efficient in their messaging. Yeah,
and for you know, you have a background and even
stepping up to the plate and working with families who
have been deeply impacted and burdened by suicide. Like you're
somebody that knows language, and so I'm thinking about just
like the church, what might be is some practical advice
in the middle of this conversation today, rather than saying
(11:52):
nothing because they're so afraid. What are some things that
they can begin to do to create that non judgmental
atmosphere to come as they are, but to leave a
little bit different.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Sure, I love that question. So two things I would say,
And I use this with my kids. So it's a
parenting technique too, right, So don't come up to your
kid if you notice that they're going well. First of all,
we've got to be a student of your congregation. You
got to be a student of the people you're working with.
How many times have you worked with pastors and leaders
and they look three feet past you and you're like,
you're not even I'm not even.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Here, and I've been here. I know you feel seen.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
So I really work with parents and pastors, know your kids,
know your congregation, and be not afraid to go, hey,
good to see is Zach how you doing? And you
can go I'm fine, but I look at your eyes.
I know you well enough to go nah, I don't
think you're doing fine. And then not pushing, but noticing,
(12:44):
and then I'll say say this, I'm ready to listen
when you want to talk. And I deal with my kids.
I encourage people to do that all the time. Why
because that opens the door to go. Okay, Mark just
asked me to he wants to listen to me. I'm
going to get a lecture. I'm not going to be fixed.
I'm not going to be you know whatever. I just
need to be listened to. And so then the invitation
(13:06):
comes in. And then when you show up, step up.
I don't care if my you know, if my phone's
ringing it to you, I'm gonna drop it because I asked,
you know, pick up the phone and talk to listen.
So I think that's one big one. The second piece
of that is, don't ask somebody how they're doing unless
you've got fifteen minutes. I get so frustrated with this culture,
especially down in the South where I'm at. You know,
you got the South in Virginia too, of like oh
(13:28):
I'm blessed better than I deserve, you know, all that
kind of stuff, And I'm like, just stop it. Like
we're perpetuating a culture of loneliness and isolation when we
do that. And so I guarantee you if you try this,
it is. It's interesting. I did that once with somebody
at the grocery store that we picked the same we
(13:49):
always picked the same checkout line with the same cash here,
just to build relationships. And I did that with them
and they're like, oh, like you really want to know.
I'm like, yeah, Like I wouldn't ask if I didn't,
you know. So it just creates that invitation for community.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I'm going to stop this right there and jump into
say you're listening to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We
need to break for a brief message from our sponsors.
I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing.
Right after this, you're listening to Life Audio doctor Mayfield
to pick up our conversation. We've talked a lot about
what mental health is. We've talked a little bit about
some of the challenges that we're seeing across culture. But
(14:26):
one that I want to specifically dive deep into that
you've done a lot of research and you actually have
a clinical workbook for us here and our Hope and
Healing series is on loneliness.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Loneliness is something that I think is infiltrating all across
the country. Why because Hell would love to get you alone.
Isolation is the enemy right to faith into progress in life.
Speak to some of the research that you found on
just the detriment that it can be well.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
It is the mental health crisis.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I challenge people to go that we are in a
mental health crisis without loneliness. And I think loneliness is
kind of the impetus for the mental health crisis. I
think that's the only reason that we're seeing an increase
in anxiety depression amongst our teens, amongst our young adults,
increase in suicide overdoses.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's because we've curated.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Our life has been curated for them without physical face
to face contact, and so there's no reciprocity, there's no
give and take, there's no feeling of the energy in
the room, there's no ability to ask that question like
we talked about before the break of just hey, I'm
ready to listen when you want to talk. I know
that you're not doing okay type of thing, but I'm
(15:41):
just gonna be like, I'm going to be very bold
in this statement. Is there is no healing apart from
Christ period. And I remember when I first started out
in this field almost twenty years ago, I'm like, yeah,
I'm going to step into the secular counseling world because
I like, you know, I learned from Larry Krab. I
liked him, but I think he's a little bit too.
I'm sitting here now twenty years later.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Goo.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Nope, Larry Krab had it figured out, and this is
the way where we need to be.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Like like, you know, obviously I'm not going to sit
in my sessions and proselytize, but like the hope of
Christ is where it's at, and I think that's where
the church is poised. Thirty six So SIGNA did a
study twenty twenty two, twenty thousand participants. Right, you just
finished your doctorate. You know, that's a big example. Of
twenty thousand participants, fifty four percent felt like no one
(16:27):
knew them well. And this is the one that gets
me all the time is thirty six percent felt like
they had nobody to turn to when life got tough.
So if you think of a room of one thousand,
you're gonna have multiple thousands here at the conference, But
a room of a thousand, that's five hundred and forty
people didn't fel like they had anybody that knew them well,
and three hundred and sixty had no one to turn
(16:47):
to when life got tough. Y'all the Church is primed
and ready to be the receiving arms of this movement.
Loneliness is a state of being, not a state of fear.
And I think a lot of times we think we
can jolt somebody back into feeling better. Well, no, it's consistency,
it's intentionality, it's reciprocity, it's commitment to get them back
(17:12):
to a feeling of being seen and known and loved
and valued.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, what do you attribute mark some of those loneliness
statistics too, because those are eye opening, those are staggering,
those heartbreak and I'm thinking about the next generation. Obviously,
we could talk about technology Jonathan Hight's book right, the
Anxious Generation, just like raising our kids on Mars by
giving them no limits as it relates to their devices.
I mean, it's crazy because we do live in a
(17:37):
comparison culture that's built on perceived perfection. We do live
in a world where there is cyber bullying and so
much is happening. There's so much going on. What are
some of the contributing factors that you're seeing that are
really beginning to almost like push this loneliness thing over.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
The edge complace in Christianity, I think is one of them.
I hope then in these last couple of weeks that's
gotten shaken loose a little bit. Uh. You know, love
the quote let's make Heaven crowded. I mean that this
is the right place to do that, right. Yes, So
I think complacing Christianity is a big one. I think
crippling parents not to know what to do and what
(18:12):
to say, I think a rampant I think the Christian
Church is afraid to speak up to the gender ideology
crap that's going on because they're afraid they're going to
be handled. Right, and we've got a dear friend that
works with us that was canceled out of California and
like that. She's she's bold and she's stood her ground.
(18:34):
Like I think there's a lot of fear in that,
and I hope that's changing. I think there's that in
the indoctrination culture. I think parents don't understand that when
their kids play games online, that there's open doors to
things that they have no idea on. I think the
device piece is it. I mean it's not the only thing,
but it's a it's a big contributor. I just think
it's a it's a lack of just to simplify it,
(18:54):
it's a lack of understanding Deuteronomy six right, first of all,
the shamah right, love Lord, you got with all your heart, mind, soul,
on strength. But then it talks about this idea of
how do we do discipleship with our kids when we
wake up and when we lie down, when we walk
along the way, bind them to our hearts, bind them
you know, sitting at the you know, all these things,
and so really working hard to equip the family and
(19:16):
to be back. I mean doctor Dobson again, another great
man that was lost this year, had I think a
corner on the market, understanding that the family was the
culture shift of a generation and we have to get
back to equipping moms and dads to be the chief
disciplers of their homes and to stand up and go,
you know what, We're not going to be like that family.
(19:38):
Like for us, devices are a tool, not a luxury,
you know, So there's a lot that we can do.
Like our household, we play video games on Friday nights
as a family, not carte blanc whenever they want to.
My seventeen year old has a dumb phone, and we
told her at seventeen she can get a smartphone, She's like, oh,
what one love it like? So that creating that culture
(20:00):
that gets back to faith, family foundation. I do think
if that happened, we would see a decline in the statistics,
not an increase.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I love what you're saying. We need a courageous level
of Christianity. CS Lewis said this, The only thing the
church cannot be is moderately important. We have to step
up and stand in the gap. Really just continue to
move forward in this particular moment in time, because it's
necessary more now than ever. You're talking about. Recently, I
(20:32):
saw a pastor had asked AI, if you were the devil,
what would you do? And it went through this entire
spiel and it was fascinating how accurate it was, almost
to the point of being scary. But there was a
statement in there that said, I would fracture the family,
because if I can fracture the family, I can fracture
the future. And it's exactly what you're getting at right,
(20:53):
this idea of my goodness. I want to make sure
that we're investing into families, into relationships, because that is
where help and hope and healing is ultimately found. Healing
cannot be found in hiding. And what I love about
what you've done, and you've really made it a mission
throughout your life. You've written a lot of books on this,
and you've talked a lot of I'm sure talks and
sermons on this very thing is giving people language to
(21:17):
begin to verbalize their emotions, to experience them, to explore them,
but then to express them right speak to the importance
of that.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Well, I think we have to understand that emotions and
feelings are two different things. And I love doing a
talk when I have families. So when I do a
family talk, I'm like, so, how is how are emotions
defined in your home?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And they're like, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And then I said, then I'll say the next question is, so,
how would you define feelings? And there's like deer in headlights,
I'm like, how many of you recognize that that feelings
and emotions are two different things? Like everybody raises their hands,
and I said, emotions are God given physiological responses to
something outside of us or inside of us. So it's
kind of that trigger, you know, when I get angry,
the hair in the back of my head stands up,
(21:59):
or my fiskit that's an emotion. Emotions are not sinful.
Feelings are sinful or can be sinful. So when we
look at something like you know, and I think it's
Joshua where it talks about the heartest, deceitful above all
use who can know it?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It goes on and talk in context that God's the
one that searches it and knows it. Well, it's the feelings.
So the feelings, then are the meanings we make from
those emotional experiences based off of our observations and experiences
of life or our childhood primarily foundations.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Right, So I always tell people.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I tell pastors like y'all have been telling people that
their emotions are bad, Like, how about we start teaching
people how to engage those emotions and rewrite their feelings
for positive. There's no batter, you know, there's no good
or bad emotions. There might be some good or bad feelings,
but what we do with it? So I think it's
again and this is where I get really frustrated with
(22:49):
our counseling profession and with the pastoral We finished seminary.
We go out into the world. We're the best pastor.
We're going to be the first two or three years
outside of seminary. But if we don't lean into continue
education and to growth into community and to iron and
chreprene iron, then we're gonna just do what we know
and not be challenged. Same thing with counselors. Right where
the best counselors two or three years after graduation. If
(23:11):
we don't continue to push ourselves and so I always
challenge pastors, maybe you're wrong, and that's okay if you are.
What does it look like to lean into something with
humility and vulnerability and then.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Adjust continue, like you said, to have that awareness, to
have that atonement, and then to also have the humility
or the accurate understanding right of who we are because
we don't have all the answers, we need help. And
I think that bridges the gap to another question that
I would have. You talk a lot in the book
about being able to recognize when to help and when
(23:42):
to refer. Yes, pastors, you know, just like us. I
think we talked a lot about that our mental health
coaching program, of like, hey, we can do it so much,
we can help recognize specific things, we can respond more effectively,
we can relate in times of need. But then we
have to learn when to we read for help us
understand that if a pastor's listening today and they're like,
(24:04):
you know what, I feel like I've been walking alongside
of somebody for a while, but it just doesn't seem
like they're getting better. Maybe they need some additional help.
What would you say to that referral process?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Well, yeah, first of all, we know that twenty four
to forty percent of people go to the church. First, Yeah, right,
I mean back in twenty eighteen, your dad now are
part of the HHS Partnership for Faith in Mental Health. Ye,
putting this guide together, and the first step, one of
the first or second steps of that is this question
and this idea of I think for a pastor stepping
(24:33):
back and going is this person using you.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Solely for their support?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
If they are, maybe you need to figure out a
way to get them to expand their network and their
their their support network, because being the sole provider of
their support is codependent. Then there's enmeshment, and there's a
whole other issue of the issues that go with that.
But two, if they are coming to you and they're
not making any movement, how many times have we worked
(25:01):
with people that just kind of enjoy being in the
victim mindset. They don't know any better their their their
identity is, and their disorder or their struggle. As counselors
were equipped and trained on how to get the train
moving and that kind of stuff. Pastors aren't, you know,
And so like I've been meeting with this person, I've
been bent over backwards. It's what about Bob, you know
type of scenario. And I can't get them to change.
(25:22):
I can't even to move. That's number one. I think
Number two is I always ask pastors look inward when
you're sitting with somebody, if you're starting to feel a
little bit crazy or disregulated, maybe it's a time for
you to get some extra support too, because that's pulling
on maybe some of your own triggers, maybe your own story,
your own history, and you're going to need that extra support.
(25:44):
And then the third pieces, well, I'm afraid that if
I do that, they're going to leave my church. Like well,
I'm not telling you to drop them off at the
corner and put a sign around their neck and say,
you know, you find me a need a therapist, Like
get them connected with a therapist, maybe even go to
their first session with them.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, sit with.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Them, help hand them off, and say, hey, I'm going
to be here to be your spiritual support. I want
this person to be your clinical support, and we're not
going to let you go. We're going to do this together.
That could revolutionize how we care for our people. Now,
if you're bigger than a three hundred member church, then
you should have volunteers or support people in your church
(26:24):
that you can bring alongside you know as well, and
go we're doing this together. Maybe get mental health coach
trained and have a bunch of that going. I mean,
I don't there's a lot of different options in that.
I think it's an ego trip for a pastor to
say I've got this without any support or needed referrals.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I y's the most dangerous three words that anyone could say.
I got this. Yeah, right, because man, we are better
and we're stronger together. We need people, We need the
help that we also desperately long for. Doctor Mark. I
want to ask you this because I'm thinking about an
audience member out there's maybe struggling with their mental health
and they've appreciated some of the things that you've shared,
(27:01):
some of the wisdom that they've gleaned from this conversation already,
but I know that you're somebody that has a backstory
when it comes to just mental health and struggles and challenges,
just like all of us. Are you a stranger to suffering?
And I want to ask this for you know, the
person out there who feels like they're in a moment
of need or powerlessness. I remember my dad always saying
that it's our moments of powerlessness that actually draw us
(27:24):
closer to right and can reveal the character of God's
heart the most. In the midst of your struggles, in
the midst of your challenge growing up with those you know,
horrific anxiety and different things like that loneliness at the
end of the day, speak to us about what you've
found about the heart of God and the character of
(27:44):
his heart.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
You know, I think it was in my I don't
remember what EMDR session it was because I've done my
own MDR work, But one of the things we do
in MDR, so those that don't know EMDR is eye
movement to sensitization reprocessing, and it's a tool to help
separate the trauma trigger and the emotional reliving. So when
you do it, you actually can make it a memory
(28:07):
and not it can you know, and we get triggered.
It's our trauma that's being triggered. So I was getting
triggered a lot, and I'm like, I need to go.
I want to get trained in MDR. But I was
probably need to do my own. And it was a
moment of a memory that I had after I had
Part of my story was the I was doing a
class presentation.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
The bullies.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Teacher stepped out. Bullies pulled my pants down in front
of the class and got my underwear and I was
exposed in front of the whole class and everybody's laughing
and pointing, and I did know Jesus didn't feel anywhere near,
you know. And I held that for a long time,
like I'm twenty six now twenty seven of them going
through my my EMDR stuff that's fifteen years, you know,
(28:45):
and held onto kind of this view of God, of
being a distant, uninvolved God because of my experience, still
loved him, still went to church, still you know, felt
called the ministry was you know, pastoring and that kind
of stuff. Remember in my are processing. So the way
it is, they bring up the memory and then we
do you know, bioltal stimulation, so light bar pulsters or
(29:07):
something just to help the brain kind of digest the process.
And the therapist goes, what's coming up for you now?
And I'm in this moment in this classroom and I'm
sitting there on the couch just balling my eyes out
as I'm processing this, and she goes, what's coming up
for you? And I said, I'm seeing Jesus standing in
(29:28):
front of me, blocking me between the classroom and my humanity.
And I never I never expected to see him there.
And so just in that moment, just reoriented that, like God,
you know, Jesus is so uniquely familiar with our struggles
(29:51):
and with our suffering that he's not distant. And so
to have that again it's it's my mind trying to
make sense of stuff, but just that reworked my whole
relationship with Jesus, that he is so intimately involved in
our our joy and our rejoicing but also in our sorrows.
We just have to kind of get that's gonna sound bad,
(30:13):
but like get over ourselves in some ways and look
up and go like, oh, you are here, and you
do care. You're not this mean grandfather God that's shining
a magnifying glass on me and hoping that you know,
or whatever our viewpoints are.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
So I'll to answer your question.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
But that was just, you know, kind of a eye
opening moment for me, you know, many many years ago,
and it's stuck with me. And that's kind of how
I try to create our counseling sessions absolutely, you know,
for our clients.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Like you said, though, that God isn't just this authoritarian
up in the sky that allows bad things to happen
to his children. He's actually a God who walks alongside
of us and experiences those very things with us as well.
Hebrews Ford talks about that we serve a high priest
that is being able to empathize with every one of
the struggles that we face, right because he has been
(30:57):
tempted and tried in every single way, so being able
to recognize God for who he really is. But then
I'm going to kind of wrap up today's conversation with
two different questions, one directly to our audience listening and
maybe one to the church overall. So the audience listening
that maybe feels bullied by life and they felt like, man,
(31:18):
they've just been bruised and beaten and battered. What's a
word of hope and just some practical next steps that
they can begin taking so that way they can too
receive the help, the hope and the healing of Jesus.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So I think one big one, to borrow from actually
watching some of Charlie's stuff the other day to his
favorite quote, this too shall pass, I think is a
huge one. I think we get so stuck in the
moment that this is the way it's going to be always.
I think that's one one big thing. But what I
would challenge, and I challenge my girls with this all
(31:53):
the time, what is the golden thread of God's faithfulness
in the trial. So when something's going bad, we'll sit
and listen and let them complain and you know, struggle,
and then I'll say, okay, I need you to close
your eyes for a minute and let me know where
it's the golden thread, the ray of light of God's
faithfulness through this tribulation and trial.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And I deal with my clients too, But that shakes us.
It makes us look at the minute.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
It might be very very small, but it gives us
a chance to go you know what, Oh, I'm not
doing this alone. Oh, this is this is growth producing
character producing this two shall pat like there's an end
to it. I think it's one big one. And I
think with that, having my clients recognize they actually have
(32:43):
agency in choosing how they respond. I think a lot
of times we think we're tossed to and fro by life,
but it's like, no.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
We actually have agency.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
We are not. We are free to choose. We're not
free from the consequences of our choices, but we're free
to choose. And if we choose not to do something
and to let us be battered in rus by the world,
then that's the consequence. But if we go you know what,
this sucks and it does and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
This is hard.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I don't like it, sure, and I'm gonna choose joy.
I'm gonna choose hope. I'm gonna choose community. I'm gonna
choose to look for the golden thread of God's faithfulness.
It actually does something. We know, this right to the
physiology of our brain and helps it heal.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
This too shall pass. Yeah, like you said, every storm
runs out of rain. But at the same time, it
is your choice and how you will respond. I'm thinking
of James Chapter one, two to four. Consider a pure joy,
my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
or you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance,
So let perseverance finish its work so that you may
(33:44):
be mature, complete, lacking nothing. We don't consider a joy
because of the trial. Consider a joy because of what
that trial might produce in and through us, if we
allow God to let it. Yep, keep on going. The
last question. I'll follow up with this to the church,
specifically clarion call right from this book, the Mental Health
Handbook for the Church, for ministry and overall, what is
(34:07):
one or two things that the church, maybe a pastor
out there today, maybe a ministry leader can be doing
to create an atmosphere of healing, to create an atmosphere
that is non judgmental. So that way, maybe just maybe
somebody that walks into the door, somebody that's sitting in
a congregation, somebody that you're sitting across from in a
conversation might be able to experience the very thing that
(34:27):
God is hoping for their life as well.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Not necessarily think they're going to like this answer much,
but it's a challenge.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Reflect on your own stuff first.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Is there anything in you that needs to be healed
to be able to be that, because an incongruent, inauthentic
individual is never going to be able to create that
for their church and their congregation.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Start with yourself first.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
And if you need to raise your hand and say
I need to go to counseling, I need to go
to marriage counsel, I need some coaching, I need a
spiritual advisor. There's stuff in me that needs to be healed.
Do that first, because the outpouring of that is going
to create what you need in your congregation, not the
other way around. And so if you need a stopgap,
I mean a shameless plug by the book, buy one
for a friend, by the church down the street, whatever, like,
(35:12):
get this in the hands of everybody.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
It's again, it's just it's a tool.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
If the person using the tool is not certified in
it or healed in it, it's not going to do anything.
So start with yourself, Start with your family, start with
your wife, husband, Take care of your own soul and
your own mind first before you do anything ministry wise
that looks like counseling.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Doctor mayfield work in our audience go to pick up
a copy of your new book, The Mental Health Handbook
for the church and for ministry. But also where can
they go to find out more about you?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
The book Amazon where books are sold. Baker Publishing has
got it on their website. My new website, mental health
made Simple. Dot life is where you can come find
about me. Also a ACC dot net. There's you know,
Google my name, I don't know I can find find
There's a lot of different places you can find stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
So mentalhealthmadsimple, dot life, AACC dot net, Amazon wherever books
are sold. I hope and pray that you guys would
lean into the opportunity and this resource that doctor Mark
Mayfield has provided us. I'll close you with this final thought.
It's a clarion call to each and every one of
us listening. Recently, an e F downs was that an
(36:23):
Ewoman conference for us in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and she gave
us this charge as we left. She said, when the
temptation is to give up, the invitation is to show up.
Just keep showing up. Doctor Mark Mayfield, my friend, thank
you so much for joining us, say
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Build Different is a production of the American Association of
Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you
can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread
the Gospel, and provide mental health resources and training to
people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's
Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,
(00:27):
your host, and each week I come to you exclusively
on the Life Audio podcast network. I'm proud to partner
with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family
friendly podcasts for a new generation. I Built Different. Our
mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help
push you past your limits and reach goals you never
thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So, then, just
as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live your
(00:50):
lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen.
Now let's roll on today's show. I'm joined by someone
whose work lives at the intersection of faith, mental health,
and resilience in the church, doctor Mark Mayfield. Doctor Mayfield
is a licensed professional counselor, a trusted voice in Christian
(01:13):
mental health circles and the author of multiple books, including
his latest that releases today as of this recording, the
Mental Health Handbook for Ministry. He's passionate about helping the
church better support those who are struggling with anxiety, depression, trauma, addiction, loneliness,
and so much more, and he equips the church to
help people grow through their pain. No matter who you are,
(01:34):
this conversation will certainly bless you, doctor Mayfield, my friend,
thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Hey, as we begin, we're here seeded just kind of
backstage at the AACC twenty twenty five United World Conference.
Seven thousand people sold out, crowd packing this place out,
the energy's rise and representing all fifty states, thirty countries.
We did the research this last night. I man, just
fascinating what God is doing. I just wanted to ask up. Clearly,
(02:01):
we'll dive into some of the research you've done on
loneliness and more. But community is necessary. Fellowship is necessary,
especially in the times that we find ourselves in culturally.
Speak to just the excitement that you have coming too
event like this.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Oh man, it's we market on our calendars. My family's
all here with me, so my three kids, my wife,
and it becomes this marked. You know, we after every
world conference, we put it on the calendar and we
just you know, tick down every week every month waiting
for it. And it's just so much fun. On the
way over here, got stopped by like ten people and
(02:33):
I remembered one name, so you know, I was doing
I was doing better than usual, but just that kind
of excitement. People are just glad to be here. I
was meeting with somebody that's part of a big treatment
center that's a Christian and she was saying today, she goes,
I'm finally with my people, and that just hit going, like,
we are in the front lines of this mental health crisis,
(02:54):
but we're also in a lot of ways fighting the
field of secular counseling to be heard as quality, clinically
sound Christian mental health professionals. And so when she said that,
like okay, that kind of hit home for me, like
we're with our people, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Absolutely, I love these gatherings because it reminds us that
we're not alone. Sometimes, you know, ministry mental health care
can feel kind of in those silos. But to gather
together to worship God, to honestly lock arm in arm
with one another. It's a comforting feeling. And I'll say this,
we need comfort because the last several years, especially as
(03:32):
if this recording, the last several weeks have been really
chaotic and it's been heartbreaking. And we've seen obviously mental
health disaster strike and run rampant across this country, across
this globe. But I mean we're seeing probably things skyrocketing,
especially fear.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I think fear is at the core of it, all right,
and everybody asks me, why aren't we getting better? You know,
we talk about this a lot at ACC, and really
it comes down to this, the hope of Christ is
not interwoven into what we do like it should be,
which is why we're so passionate about what we do
here at AACC and what I like to do, you know,
and the writing piece and the counseling pieces and that
(04:11):
kind of stuff. But it's yeah, I mean, if you
look at the stats since two thousand and seven, it's
anxiety and depression is almost doubling on itself, and we
have more mental health professionals than ever before. So statistically
we should be getting better, yes, and we're not.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Right, And I think that's what prompted you. I would
assume in your spirit to write a really special piece
of work to really help educate and equip the church
with the necessary language. Because I mean, let's begin here.
I guess a lot of pastors will come to us
and they'll say this, I want to address mental health
from a bullpit. I want to talk about it. I
just don't know how to Mark, I don't know how
(04:48):
to Zach. It's like every time I bring it up,
it almost sounds taboo. It sounds like this new age stuff,
and people I just don't want to say the wrong thing,
so we don't say anything, so they don't say anything.
Indecisions a decision after all, speak to obviously have a
heart again, we just mentioned release of the book was
two day as of this recording. The Mental Health Handbook
for Ministry for the Church, speak to just the heart
(05:10):
behind it all.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Well, it's funny I had this desire. I'm a former pastor,
you know, I guess, once a pastor, always a pastor.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
But I've had this desire for a long time.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
And I've had this idea for a very long time
and published, you know, and presented it to six publishers
and they all said no. And so the seventh one
was Baker Publishing and they said yes, and so they
took a risk on it. But the heart behind it
is that very thing. It's I think we get a
lot of pastors that are just paralyzed by the need
(05:42):
and they think they have to be the end. I'll
be all fix all, and it's like, no, just be
a stopgap, be a presence. And so this book is
essentially a desk reference guide. It's not a read through.
I tell pastors right now, like, you can read through
it if you want to be pretty boring. But if
you want to read through it, read through it, but
grab the tab grab tabs like you tab your Bible
(06:03):
or you tab your r DSM five right, tab right,
and then label it depression chapter, anxiety chapter, LGBTQ plus chapter,
eating disorder chapter, you know the one you you know
working with you know, a high achieving families chapter. Yes,
And when you've got people coming into your church, just
pick it up and tab over to that chapter and
prepare yourself. What does the Bible say about it? What
(06:23):
is it clinically? What should you do? And then when
you're above your pay grade, like what's the next steps?
So that's basically the gist of the book, so that
instead of crippling pastors, it equip them.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I've heard you say in the pastes, even in personal
conversations that I think a lot of churches and even
pastors and ministry leaders they're well meaning, but they're under equipped. Yes,
And so you know, we talk a lot about how
science and scripture they really do go hand in hand,
especially when it's truth based, right effective science. It's going
to backscripture and vice versa. But being able to recognize
(06:56):
then why do the fields of psychology and theology clash
so much? And why have we separated them within the
church so much? What would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I think we don't have an informed understanding. And so
I have this conversation all the time, you know, teaching
at Colorado Christian and the Master's program, students come, you know,
I think bright eyed and like, we're going to do this,
and then they're like, but it's going to go against
my faith. It's going to go against this, And I'm like,
so it take a step back. And what I always
tell them is if we go back to Genesis one
(07:26):
and Genesis two, and justis three the fall of man, right,
that separation from God has disrupted our identity. Our identity,
the idea of identity is to bond to something. We're
not bonding to Christ. We're going to find something else
to bond to. But that yearning of bonding to Christ
is still there. And I said, so, every theorist is
a part of this broken world created the image of God.
(07:47):
Every theorist is trying to make sense of this world
that's broken. So don't you think if we have that
pull towards bonding to Christ and we don't know it,
and we see the brokenness around us, there's going to
be shreds and threads of truth in every single theory
because that's the human condition. We are wanting to find
(08:08):
our purpose and our belonging and our creator, whether we
realize it or not. So I challenge students. I'm teaching
theories of personality right now, and I just challenge my
go find the thread of truth in every theory and
then write it down, bring it back to me, and
let's talk about it, and then how do we integrate that?
Or my new favorite term right now, David Anentwissel uses
this term of reintegration. Yes, right, not integration, because it's
(08:31):
not the first time. It's getting back to the way
that it was meant to be. So how do we
reintegrate these things into our Christian and biblical worldview so
that we can be the best help for that person
in front of us. And so clinical side what we
do pastoral side can be done very effectively.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Absolutely, obviously this book is packed with clinical wisdom, but
also from a biblical worldview. And what I want to
chat about here for a moment is mental health at large.
I think sometimes people don't really understand what it all encompasses.
We know this every time the Bible or Scripture references
the soul. It's very holistic in nature, similar to the
(09:09):
root of the word psychology su k r, which is body,
mind and spirit. It's holistic and so recognizing it's not
just about anxious thoughts or stinking thinking right, or these
cognitive distortions. Yes, that's a part of it, but man,
it is relational at large. Speak to just as you
teach as a professor and as you continue to build
out resources for the church. What is mental health?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
YEA, well, I think you spoke to it just there.
It's the it's the integration or reintegration of those three things.
I think we've as a society have separated it. And
if your body is sick, go to the doctor. If
you're you know, if your mind is go to the
counselor if your soul is stick go to the pastor Well,
what if we were all equipped to handle those things?
And how much of our physical sickness is actually due
(09:56):
to our soul in our mind? You know?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And so.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Of those things, and I think really equipping the pastoral
community to go, like if we have a true theology
of suffering and a truth understanding of what you just said.
You know this the mind, body, spirit, it's it's almost
like you can't unwind or unweave them. They're so interconnected.
(10:20):
And so how do we find ways to engage and
partner with each other instead of fighting each other?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
We I have conversations a lot, and I'm sure you
do too. With euthetic biblical counselors that the Bible only
And I'm like, I don't disagree, but we're missing a
large swath of wisdom in that. So how do we
work together instead of fighting against each other?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And so the same thing with physical doctors. I mean,
I can't tell the times I've fought with physical doctors
to get a sleep deprive DG or you know, something
to go at. Their physical symptoms are a result of
something going on in the brain and their mind. And
let's let's get to the root of it. What do
you talking about? You don't know what you're talking about.
I'm like, maybe I do, yes, absolutely, And let's have
(11:05):
those conversations instead of be fighting.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And that's why I think I respect and appreciate about
you so much, Mark, is that you have a love
for the difficult conversations. You're willing to lean in, You're
willing to show up. In this book alone. You cover
some hard topics depression, trauma, grief, self harm, personality disorders,
so much more things that again the church maybe doesn't
(11:29):
feel equipped or maybe doesn't feel efficient in their messaging. Yeah,
and for you know, you have a background and even
stepping up to the plate and working with families who
have been deeply impacted and burdened by suicide. Like you're
somebody that knows language, and so I'm thinking about just
like the church, what might be is some practical advice
in the middle of this conversation today, rather than saying
(11:52):
nothing because they're so afraid. What are some things that
they can begin to do to create that non judgmental
atmosphere to come as they are, but to leave a
little bit different.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Sure, I love that question. So two things I would say,
And I use this with my kids. So it's a
parenting technique too, right, So don't come up to your
kid if you notice that they're going well. First of all,
we've got to be a student of your congregation. You
got to be a student of the people you're working with.
How many times have you worked with pastors and leaders
and they look three feet past you and you're like,
you're not even I'm not even.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Here, and I've been here. I know you feel seen.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
So I really work with parents and pastors, know your kids,
know your congregation, and be not afraid to go, hey,
good to see is Zach how you doing? And you
can go I'm fine, but I look at your eyes.
I know you well enough to go nah, I don't
think you're doing fine. And then not pushing, but noticing,
(12:44):
and then I'll say say this, I'm ready to listen
when you want to talk. And I deal with my kids.
I encourage people to do that all the time. Why
because that opens the door to go. Okay, Mark just
asked me to he wants to listen to me. I'm
going to get a lecture. I'm not going to be fixed.
I'm not going to be you know whatever. I just
need to be listened to. And so then the invitation
(13:06):
comes in. And then when you show up, step up.
I don't care if my you know, if my phone's
ringing it to you, I'm gonna drop it because I asked,
you know, pick up the phone and talk to listen.
So I think that's one big one. The second piece
of that is, don't ask somebody how they're doing unless
you've got fifteen minutes. I get so frustrated with this culture,
especially down in the South where I'm at. You know,
you got the South in Virginia too, of like oh
(13:28):
I'm blessed better than I deserve, you know, all that
kind of stuff, And I'm like, just stop it. Like
we're perpetuating a culture of loneliness and isolation when we
do that. And so I guarantee you if you try this,
it is. It's interesting. I did that once with somebody
at the grocery store that we picked the same we
(13:49):
always picked the same checkout line with the same cash here,
just to build relationships. And I did that with them
and they're like, oh, like you really want to know.
I'm like, yeah, Like I wouldn't ask if I didn't,
you know. So it just creates that invitation for community.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I'm going to stop this right there and jump into
say you're listening to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We
need to break for a brief message from our sponsors.
I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing.
Right after this, you're listening to Life Audio doctor Mayfield
to pick up our conversation. We've talked a lot about
what mental health is. We've talked a little bit about
some of the challenges that we're seeing across culture. But
(14:26):
one that I want to specifically dive deep into that
you've done a lot of research and you actually have
a clinical workbook for us here and our Hope and
Healing series is on loneliness.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Loneliness is something that I think is infiltrating all across
the country. Why because Hell would love to get you alone.
Isolation is the enemy right to faith into progress in life.
Speak to some of the research that you found on
just the detriment that it can be well.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
It is the mental health crisis.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I challenge people to go that we are in a
mental health crisis without loneliness. And I think loneliness is
kind of the impetus for the mental health crisis. I
think that's the only reason that we're seeing an increase
in anxiety depression amongst our teens, amongst our young adults,
increase in suicide overdoses.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's because we've curated.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Our life has been curated for them without physical face
to face contact, and so there's no reciprocity, there's no
give and take, there's no feeling of the energy in
the room, there's no ability to ask that question like
we talked about before the break of just hey, I'm
ready to listen when you want to talk. I know
that you're not doing okay type of thing, but I'm
(15:41):
just gonna be like, I'm going to be very bold
in this statement. Is there is no healing apart from
Christ period. And I remember when I first started out
in this field almost twenty years ago, I'm like, yeah,
I'm going to step into the secular counseling world because
I like, you know, I learned from Larry Krab. I
liked him, but I think he's a little bit too.
I'm sitting here now twenty years later.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Goo.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Nope, Larry Krab had it figured out, and this is
the way where we need to be.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Like like, you know, obviously I'm not going to sit
in my sessions and proselytize, but like the hope of
Christ is where it's at, and I think that's where
the church is poised. Thirty six So SIGNA did a
study twenty twenty two, twenty thousand participants. Right, you just
finished your doctorate. You know, that's a big example. Of
twenty thousand participants, fifty four percent felt like no one
(16:27):
knew them well. And this is the one that gets
me all the time is thirty six percent felt like
they had nobody to turn to when life got tough.
So if you think of a room of one thousand,
you're gonna have multiple thousands here at the conference, But
a room of a thousand, that's five hundred and forty
people didn't fel like they had anybody that knew them well,
and three hundred and sixty had no one to turn
(16:47):
to when life got tough. Y'all the Church is primed
and ready to be the receiving arms of this movement.
Loneliness is a state of being, not a state of fear.
And I think a lot of times we think we
can jolt somebody back into feeling better. Well, no, it's consistency,
it's intentionality, it's reciprocity, it's commitment to get them back
(17:12):
to a feeling of being seen and known and loved
and valued.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, what do you attribute mark some of those loneliness
statistics too, because those are eye opening, those are staggering,
those heartbreak and I'm thinking about the next generation. Obviously,
we could talk about technology Jonathan Hight's book right, the
Anxious Generation, just like raising our kids on Mars by
giving them no limits as it relates to their devices.
I mean, it's crazy because we do live in a
(17:37):
comparison culture that's built on perceived perfection. We do live
in a world where there is cyber bullying and so
much is happening. There's so much going on. What are
some of the contributing factors that you're seeing that are
really beginning to almost like push this loneliness thing over.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
The edge complace in Christianity, I think is one of them.
I hope then in these last couple of weeks that's
gotten shaken loose a little bit. Uh. You know, love
the quote let's make Heaven crowded. I mean that this
is the right place to do that, right. Yes, So
I think complacing Christianity is a big one. I think
crippling parents not to know what to do and what
(18:12):
to say, I think a rampant I think the Christian
Church is afraid to speak up to the gender ideology
crap that's going on because they're afraid they're going to
be handled. Right, and we've got a dear friend that
works with us that was canceled out of California and
like that. She's she's bold and she's stood her ground.
(18:34):
Like I think there's a lot of fear in that,
and I hope that's changing. I think there's that in
the indoctrination culture. I think parents don't understand that when
their kids play games online, that there's open doors to
things that they have no idea on. I think the
device piece is it. I mean it's not the only thing,
but it's a it's a big contributor. I just think
it's a it's a lack of just to simplify it,
(18:54):
it's a lack of understanding Deuteronomy six right, first of all,
the shamah right, love Lord, you got with all your heart, mind, soul,
on strength. But then it talks about this idea of
how do we do discipleship with our kids when we
wake up and when we lie down, when we walk
along the way, bind them to our hearts, bind them
you know, sitting at the you know, all these things,
and so really working hard to equip the family and
(19:16):
to be back. I mean doctor Dobson again, another great
man that was lost this year, had I think a
corner on the market, understanding that the family was the
culture shift of a generation and we have to get
back to equipping moms and dads to be the chief
disciplers of their homes and to stand up and go,
you know what, We're not going to be like that family.
(19:38):
Like for us, devices are a tool, not a luxury,
you know, So there's a lot that we can do.
Like our household, we play video games on Friday nights
as a family, not carte blanc whenever they want to.
My seventeen year old has a dumb phone, and we
told her at seventeen she can get a smartphone, She's like, oh,
what one love it like? So that creating that culture
(20:00):
that gets back to faith, family foundation. I do think
if that happened, we would see a decline in the statistics,
not an increase.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I love what you're saying. We need a courageous level
of Christianity. CS Lewis said this, The only thing the
church cannot be is moderately important. We have to step
up and stand in the gap. Really just continue to
move forward in this particular moment in time, because it's
necessary more now than ever. You're talking about. Recently, I
(20:32):
saw a pastor had asked AI, if you were the devil,
what would you do? And it went through this entire
spiel and it was fascinating how accurate it was, almost
to the point of being scary. But there was a
statement in there that said, I would fracture the family,
because if I can fracture the family, I can fracture
the future. And it's exactly what you're getting at right,
(20:53):
this idea of my goodness. I want to make sure
that we're investing into families, into relationships, because that is
where help and hope and healing is ultimately found. Healing
cannot be found in hiding. And what I love about
what you've done, and you've really made it a mission
throughout your life. You've written a lot of books on this,
and you've talked a lot of I'm sure talks and
sermons on this very thing is giving people language to
(21:17):
begin to verbalize their emotions, to experience them, to explore them,
but then to express them right speak to the importance
of that.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Well, I think we have to understand that emotions and
feelings are two different things. And I love doing a
talk when I have families. So when I do a
family talk, I'm like, so, how is how are emotions
defined in your home?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And they're like, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And then I said, then I'll say the next question is, so,
how would you define feelings? And there's like deer in headlights,
I'm like, how many of you recognize that that feelings
and emotions are two different things? Like everybody raises their hands,
and I said, emotions are God given physiological responses to
something outside of us or inside of us. So it's
kind of that trigger, you know, when I get angry,
the hair in the back of my head stands up,
(21:59):
or my fiskit that's an emotion. Emotions are not sinful.
Feelings are sinful or can be sinful. So when we
look at something like you know, and I think it's
Joshua where it talks about the heartest, deceitful above all
use who can know it?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It goes on and talk in context that God's the
one that searches it and knows it. Well, it's the feelings.
So the feelings, then are the meanings we make from
those emotional experiences based off of our observations and experiences
of life or our childhood primarily foundations.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Right, So I always tell people.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I tell pastors like y'all have been telling people that
their emotions are bad, Like, how about we start teaching
people how to engage those emotions and rewrite their feelings
for positive. There's no batter, you know, there's no good
or bad emotions. There might be some good or bad feelings,
but what we do with it? So I think it's
again and this is where I get really frustrated with
(22:49):
our counseling profession and with the pastoral We finished seminary.
We go out into the world. We're the best pastor.
We're going to be the first two or three years
outside of seminary. But if we don't lean into continue
education and to growth into community and to iron and
chreprene iron, then we're gonna just do what we know
and not be challenged. Same thing with counselors. Right where
the best counselors two or three years after graduation. If
(23:11):
we don't continue to push ourselves and so I always
challenge pastors, maybe you're wrong, and that's okay if you are.
What does it look like to lean into something with
humility and vulnerability and then.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Adjust continue, like you said, to have that awareness, to
have that atonement, and then to also have the humility
or the accurate understanding right of who we are because
we don't have all the answers, we need help. And
I think that bridges the gap to another question that
I would have. You talk a lot in the book
about being able to recognize when to help and when
(23:42):
to refer. Yes, pastors, you know, just like us. I
think we talked a lot about that our mental health
coaching program, of like, hey, we can do it so much,
we can help recognize specific things, we can respond more effectively,
we can relate in times of need. But then we
have to learn when to we read for help us
understand that if a pastor's listening today and they're like,
(24:04):
you know what, I feel like I've been walking alongside
of somebody for a while, but it just doesn't seem
like they're getting better. Maybe they need some additional help.
What would you say to that referral process?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Well, yeah, first of all, we know that twenty four
to forty percent of people go to the church. First, Yeah, right,
I mean back in twenty eighteen, your dad now are
part of the HHS Partnership for Faith in Mental Health. Ye,
putting this guide together, and the first step, one of
the first or second steps of that is this question
and this idea of I think for a pastor stepping
(24:33):
back and going is this person using you.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Solely for their support?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
If they are, maybe you need to figure out a
way to get them to expand their network and their
their their support network, because being the sole provider of
their support is codependent. Then there's enmeshment, and there's a
whole other issue of the issues that go with that.
But two, if they are coming to you and they're
not making any movement, how many times have we worked
(25:01):
with people that just kind of enjoy being in the
victim mindset. They don't know any better their their their
identity is, and their disorder or their struggle. As counselors
were equipped and trained on how to get the train
moving and that kind of stuff. Pastors aren't, you know,
And so like I've been meeting with this person, I've
been bent over backwards. It's what about Bob, you know
type of scenario. And I can't get them to change.
(25:22):
I can't even to move. That's number one. I think
Number two is I always ask pastors look inward when
you're sitting with somebody, if you're starting to feel a
little bit crazy or disregulated, maybe it's a time for
you to get some extra support too, because that's pulling
on maybe some of your own triggers, maybe your own story,
your own history, and you're going to need that extra support.
(25:44):
And then the third pieces, well, I'm afraid that if
I do that, they're going to leave my church. Like well,
I'm not telling you to drop them off at the
corner and put a sign around their neck and say,
you know, you find me a need a therapist, Like
get them connected with a therapist, maybe even go to
their first session with them.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, sit with.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Them, help hand them off, and say, hey, I'm going
to be here to be your spiritual support. I want
this person to be your clinical support, and we're not
going to let you go. We're going to do this together.
That could revolutionize how we care for our people. Now,
if you're bigger than a three hundred member church, then
you should have volunteers or support people in your church
(26:24):
that you can bring alongside you know as well, and
go we're doing this together. Maybe get mental health coach
trained and have a bunch of that going. I mean,
I don't there's a lot of different options in that.
I think it's an ego trip for a pastor to
say I've got this without any support or needed referrals.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I y's the most dangerous three words that anyone could say.
I got this. Yeah, right, because man, we are better
and we're stronger together. We need people, We need the
help that we also desperately long for. Doctor Mark. I
want to ask you this because I'm thinking about an
audience member out there's maybe struggling with their mental health
and they've appreciated some of the things that you've shared,
(27:01):
some of the wisdom that they've gleaned from this conversation already,
but I know that you're somebody that has a backstory
when it comes to just mental health and struggles and challenges,
just like all of us. Are you a stranger to suffering?
And I want to ask this for you know, the
person out there who feels like they're in a moment
of need or powerlessness. I remember my dad always saying
that it's our moments of powerlessness that actually draw us
(27:24):
closer to right and can reveal the character of God's
heart the most. In the midst of your struggles, in
the midst of your challenge growing up with those you know,
horrific anxiety and different things like that loneliness at the
end of the day, speak to us about what you've
found about the heart of God and the character of
(27:44):
his heart.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
You know, I think it was in my I don't
remember what EMDR session it was because I've done my
own MDR work, But one of the things we do
in MDR, so those that don't know EMDR is eye
movement to sensitization reprocessing, and it's a tool to help
separate the trauma trigger and the emotional reliving. So when
you do it, you actually can make it a memory
(28:07):
and not it can you know, and we get triggered.
It's our trauma that's being triggered. So I was getting
triggered a lot, and I'm like, I need to go.
I want to get trained in MDR. But I was
probably need to do my own. And it was a
moment of a memory that I had after I had
Part of my story was the I was doing a
class presentation.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
The bullies.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Teacher stepped out. Bullies pulled my pants down in front
of the class and got my underwear and I was
exposed in front of the whole class and everybody's laughing
and pointing, and I did know Jesus didn't feel anywhere near,
you know. And I held that for a long time,
like I'm twenty six now twenty seven of them going
through my my EMDR stuff that's fifteen years, you know,
(28:45):
and held onto kind of this view of God, of
being a distant, uninvolved God because of my experience, still
loved him, still went to church, still you know, felt
called the ministry was you know, pastoring and that kind
of stuff. Remember in my are processing. So the way
it is, they bring up the memory and then we
do you know, bioltal stimulation, so light bar pulsters or
(29:07):
something just to help the brain kind of digest the process.
And the therapist goes, what's coming up for you now?
And I'm in this moment in this classroom and I'm
sitting there on the couch just balling my eyes out
as I'm processing this, and she goes, what's coming up
for you? And I said, I'm seeing Jesus standing in
(29:28):
front of me, blocking me between the classroom and my humanity.
And I never I never expected to see him there.
And so just in that moment, just reoriented that, like God,
you know, Jesus is so uniquely familiar with our struggles
(29:51):
and with our suffering that he's not distant. And so
to have that again it's it's my mind trying to
make sense of stuff, but just that reworked my whole
relationship with Jesus, that he is so intimately involved in
our our joy and our rejoicing but also in our sorrows.
We just have to kind of get that's gonna sound bad,
(30:13):
but like get over ourselves in some ways and look
up and go like, oh, you are here, and you
do care. You're not this mean grandfather God that's shining
a magnifying glass on me and hoping that you know,
or whatever our viewpoints are.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
So I'll to answer your question.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
But that was just, you know, kind of a eye
opening moment for me, you know, many many years ago,
and it's stuck with me. And that's kind of how
I try to create our counseling sessions absolutely, you know,
for our clients.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Like you said, though, that God isn't just this authoritarian
up in the sky that allows bad things to happen
to his children. He's actually a God who walks alongside
of us and experiences those very things with us as well.
Hebrews Ford talks about that we serve a high priest
that is being able to empathize with every one of
the struggles that we face, right because he has been
(30:57):
tempted and tried in every single way, so being able
to recognize God for who he really is. But then
I'm going to kind of wrap up today's conversation with
two different questions, one directly to our audience listening and
maybe one to the church overall. So the audience listening
that maybe feels bullied by life and they felt like, man,
(31:18):
they've just been bruised and beaten and battered. What's a
word of hope and just some practical next steps that
they can begin taking so that way they can too
receive the help, the hope and the healing of Jesus.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So I think one big one, to borrow from actually
watching some of Charlie's stuff the other day to his
favorite quote, this too shall pass, I think is a
huge one. I think we get so stuck in the
moment that this is the way it's going to be always.
I think that's one one big thing. But what I
would challenge, and I challenge my girls with this all
(31:53):
the time, what is the golden thread of God's faithfulness
in the trial. So when something's going bad, we'll sit
and listen and let them complain and you know, struggle,
and then I'll say, okay, I need you to close
your eyes for a minute and let me know where
it's the golden thread, the ray of light of God's
faithfulness through this tribulation and trial.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And I deal with my clients too, But that shakes us.
It makes us look at the minute.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
It might be very very small, but it gives us
a chance to go you know what, Oh, I'm not
doing this alone. Oh, this is this is growth producing
character producing this two shall pat like there's an end
to it. I think it's one big one. And I
think with that, having my clients recognize they actually have
(32:43):
agency in choosing how they respond. I think a lot
of times we think we're tossed to and fro by life,
but it's like, no.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
We actually have agency.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
We are not. We are free to choose. We're not
free from the consequences of our choices, but we're free
to choose. And if we choose not to do something
and to let us be battered in rus by the world,
then that's the consequence. But if we go you know what,
this sucks and it does and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
This is hard.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I don't like it, sure, and I'm gonna choose joy.
I'm gonna choose hope. I'm gonna choose community. I'm gonna
choose to look for the golden thread of God's faithfulness.
It actually does something. We know, this right to the
physiology of our brain and helps it heal.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
This too shall pass. Yeah, like you said, every storm
runs out of rain. But at the same time, it
is your choice and how you will respond. I'm thinking
of James Chapter one, two to four. Consider a pure joy,
my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
or you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance,
So let perseverance finish its work so that you may
(33:44):
be mature, complete, lacking nothing. We don't consider a joy
because of the trial. Consider a joy because of what
that trial might produce in and through us, if we
allow God to let it. Yep, keep on going. The
last question. I'll follow up with this to the church,
specifically clarion call right from this book, the Mental Health
Handbook for the Church, for ministry and overall, what is
(34:07):
one or two things that the church, maybe a pastor
out there today, maybe a ministry leader can be doing
to create an atmosphere of healing, to create an atmosphere
that is non judgmental. So that way, maybe just maybe
somebody that walks into the door, somebody that's sitting in
a congregation, somebody that you're sitting across from in a
conversation might be able to experience the very thing that
(34:27):
God is hoping for their life as well.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Not necessarily think they're going to like this answer much,
but it's a challenge.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Reflect on your own stuff first.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Is there anything in you that needs to be healed
to be able to be that, because an incongruent, inauthentic
individual is never going to be able to create that
for their church and their congregation.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Start with yourself first.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
And if you need to raise your hand and say
I need to go to counseling, I need to go
to marriage counsel, I need some coaching, I need a
spiritual advisor. There's stuff in me that needs to be healed.
Do that first, because the outpouring of that is going
to create what you need in your congregation, not the
other way around. And so if you need a stopgap,
I mean a shameless plug by the book, buy one
for a friend, by the church down the street, whatever, like,
(35:12):
get this in the hands of everybody.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
It's again, it's just it's a tool.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
If the person using the tool is not certified in
it or healed in it, it's not going to do anything.
So start with yourself, Start with your family, start with
your wife, husband, Take care of your own soul and
your own mind first before you do anything ministry wise
that looks like counseling.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Doctor mayfield work in our audience go to pick up
a copy of your new book, The Mental Health Handbook
for the church and for ministry. But also where can
they go to find out more about you?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
The book Amazon where books are sold. Baker Publishing has
got it on their website. My new website, mental health
made Simple. Dot life is where you can come find
about me. Also a ACC dot net. There's you know,
Google my name, I don't know I can find find
There's a lot of different places you can find stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
So mentalhealthmadsimple, dot life, AACC dot net, Amazon wherever books
are sold. I hope and pray that you guys would
lean into the opportunity and this resource that doctor Mark
Mayfield has provided us. I'll close you with this final thought.
It's a clarion call to each and every one of
us listening. Recently, an e F downs was that an
(36:23):
Ewoman conference for us in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and she gave
us this charge as we left. She said, when the
temptation is to give up, the invitation is to show up.
Just keep showing up. Doctor Mark Mayfield, my friend, thank
you so much for joining us, say
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