December 22, 2025 • 46 mins
In this Christmas Day special, New York Times bestselling author and former investigative journalist, Lee Strobel, uncovers the historical, scientific, and theological evidence behind the birth of Jesus. This is a rich, thoughtful conversation that strengthens both heart and mind during the Christmas season. Lee walks listeners through the credibility of the Gospel accounts, the prophecies fulfilled in Christ’s birth, and the evidence that the manger scene is not myth but history. He explores the incarnation, the reliability of eyewitness testimony, and why the identity of the Child in the manger changes everything about our hope, our faith, and our future.
Visit Lee’s Website: https://leestrobel.com/
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Pick Up a Copy of Lee’s Other Bestselling Books: https://leestrobel.com/books
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Build Different is a production of the American Association of
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people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's
Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,
(00:27):
your host, and each week I come to you exclusively
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Speaker 1 (00:38):
I Built Different.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to
help push you past your limits and reach goals you
never thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So then,
just as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live
your lives in him, rooted and built up in him.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Amen. Now let's roll.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Wello everybody, and welcome back into another edition of the
Built Different podcast. As always, I'll be your host today,
doctor Zach Clinton, and let me start out by saying,
I'm really excited for today's conversation because one of my
favorite times of the year is finally here. You guessed it, Christmas.
(01:18):
So let me start out by wishing you and yours
are very blessed in Merry Christmas. I hope and pray
that today and every day you would experience and feel
the nearness of God a little bit more. And today,
as we step into the season and holiday of anticipation,
joy and reflection, I can't think of a better guest
to help us get our hearts and mind centered than
today's very own Lee Strobel is a New York Times
(01:39):
bestselling author, former award winning investigative journalist, and one of
the most influential apologists of our day and age. You
know him from The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith,
The Case for Easter, the Case for Miracles, Seeing the Supernatural,
and so many others. But today we get to dive
into something special is newly re released and nearly ninety
percent reworked in re written book, The Case for Christmas.
(02:02):
So before we get into the deep stuff, Lee, my friend,
thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, Zach, always great to be with you. I sure
appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I always love having you on here because, as I
mentioned before, I even press record the impact you have
had on my life and on countless family members, and
I know countless others.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Has been astronomical.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
So grateful for you and just what God is continuing
to do in and through you. But Lee, let me
say this, It's Christmas time and there's something magical in
the air. I don't know about you, but I love
the trees and the lights and the stockings and the
gifts and the music and the magic Lee for you.
And I'll say this, it's not just magical for Christians,
but for everybody. What is it about this time of
the year, in this season that makes it so magical?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah. You know a lot of us Christians like to
complain that, oh, Christmas has gotten secularized and commercialized and
so forth. But the truth is the fact that it
kind of dominates our cultural consciousness for a month or
so every year. I think speaks to people who are
not Christians, spiritually curious people. You know, studies are showing
(03:05):
that people are more open spiritually during the Christmas season.
More non believers come to Christmas services than any other
time of the year. So there's something in the culture
in the moment, and something in the season that I
think is drawing people. God is stirring something, and you know,
Colossian says we should seize every opportunity to share Jesus
(03:27):
to be strong, salt and bright light to people who
are spiritually curious, and this is our opportunity to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
We know, as we continue to delve into this conversation today,
we're going to talk about the Nativity scene, the story
behind Christmas, and so much more. But you know, Lee,
as I begin thinking about Christmas and I mentioned it's
one of my favorite times of the year. It's been
a tradition in our household for countless years and it's
been passed down through the generations to make this season
one that is very special.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
One I know my dad mentioned.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
To you in an early earlier interview a couple of
weeks back, is we used to go up to my
grandfather's trailer, and that trailer really was I'm only supposed
to sleep about maybe eight or so. We'd pack about
twenty five to thirty of us in their lead and
we would just have trees everywhere, presents everywhere, but it
was just filled with love and it was just moments
of tradition. Door prizes were something my papacy used to
(04:15):
give out. If you walked in the door, you got
a prize. I remember getting pocket knife was on I
was like four or five years Oldly it was something else.
But we love carrying traditions. I would love to hear
from you. I'm just even to somebody like in my
next generation the importance of traditions and how they really
are the glue that whole families together.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, they really are. And you know, it's a great
way to get into a conversation with someone who's maybe
not a Christian this time of year to say, what
are the traditions that you had growing up around Christmas?
Because everybody observes it in one way or the other,
and it's a great way to get into conversations. Hey,
what was Christmas like for you when you were five
or six years old? And often they'll say, oh, well,
you know, it was great. We'd we'd have big tree
(04:56):
and we'd open presents one at a time and sell
great that and then the cousins would come over and
we go to church. And then you say, oh, wow,
that sounds great. Hey do you still go to church? Well, no,
you know, I kind of stopped going in college. Really,
how come and now you're into a spiritual conversation. So
the Christmas traditions really do open up a bridge that
(05:21):
we can use to get into these kind of spiritual
engagements with people who are far from God.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I love that the engagement around traditions really is a
tool for evangelism. Lee, I got to ask a fun
question up front before we dive into the deep stuff.
What are some of your favorite traditions in the Strobel household.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Well, it's you know, we always get the grandkids together,
you know, every Christmas, many of them as we can,
because my son, as you know, as a professor of
theology at the Tablet School Theology in California, So we
got two younger grandkids out there. So we'll have the
older grandkids gathering here in Houston, Texas and have a
great time at church. On Christmas Eve, we always go
(05:59):
out to ironically an Asian restaurant. I don't know why,
but it's kind of tradition that we go to an
Asian restaurant on Christmas Eve and enjoy that, and then
the next morning open Presence and uh, you know, read
the accounts of the Birth of Jesus from Luke and
from Matthew and you know, and just enjoy each other's company.
(06:21):
And now now my older grandkids getting old, now they
got boyfriends and fiances that they bring along, so it
makes it even more fun.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It's amazing how the family just keeps on growing, isn't it.
And I'll tell you this, Lee, I love some Asian food,
Japanese food, some of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So I'd be joining that.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Whatever happened to turkey, I guess that's Thanksgiving? I like
turkey dog on it.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Lee.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Let me dive in here for a moment to kind
of the topic of our conversation. You've written countless best
selling books, as I mentioned, several that have been influential
in my life and a lot of people that I
know and love. But the one that we'll be diving
into today is one that you recently re released, The
Case for Christmas, and I'd be interested. I know ninety
percent I think is rewritten or kind of reworked in
(07:06):
some way, shape or form. I'd love to hear just
why did you really feel the need to go back
at such a time as this to kind of re
release this very important work.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Well, you just said such a time as this, I
believe God is stirring our culture, and I wanted to
update the book. There have been some discoveries in recent years,
historical discoveries, archaeological discoveries that I wanted to bring into
the conversation that have a bearing on the Christmas story,
and I wanted to just go from A to Z
(07:38):
and write a fresh account. I actually wrote it on
Christmas Eve last year. Yeah, I was. I was sitting
at home and there was Christmas and we've just been
to church and and that's when I began to write
the book in the midst of that Christmas celebration. So
I wanted to have something fresh, something up to date,
(07:58):
because I and something has Gospel in it, something that's inexpensive.
You can get online for a couple of bucks and
go to hobby lobby. They'll give it to you for free.
Have you bought half a million copies and are giving
them away for free to people between now and Christmas.
We want to get it as many hands as we
can because the Gospel is in it. And my hope
and prayer is that people this Christmas season will be
(08:20):
intrigued by the Christmas story and you know, delve into
it and find Jesus.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
As you mentioned it's inexpensive, it's about pocket size, but
at the same time, it's less than one hundred pages.
So if you're not somebody that likes to read, there's
no excuse here. This is an incredible book. It's an
incredible read, and I believe it's a very valuable asset
this time of the year, especially for those in need.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
You know, something that I really.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Appreciate about the book, and one of the traditions that
my wife Evelyn and I have actually dove into the
last couple of years is the book. And I should say,
the Gospel of Luke has twenty four chapters, and so
we read a chapter a day leading up to Christmas Day,
and recently, obviously, we read through Luke chapter two on
December second. And that's kind of the Nativity story, that's
the Christmas story that we read at so many of
(09:04):
our family dinners and our pot lucks and our traditions
and all of these things. And you talk a little
bit about Luke two, and you dive into it as
would be, but you really focus on the significance of
the virgin birth, and you talk about kind of the
different correlations between Luke and Matthew in the book, I'd
love for you take us into that intilod.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, a lot of skeptics, like I used to be
an atheist, and a lot of skepticals say, hey, how
come only two of the gospels really have any details
about the birth of Jesus if it was so important,
the virgin birth. And the answer is, we have two,
first of all, very early different independent accounts. Now we
have the Gospel of Luke. Luke, by the way, who
doesn't say, oh, I'm writing something once upon a time,
(09:44):
something that happened in the distant midst of the past.
Now he says, I carefully investigated everything so I could
write an orderly account about the certainty of what took place.
He was a first century investigative reporter. I believe he
interviewed Mary. If not, I believe he interviewed Anna or Susannah,
who he mentions in his gospel. They knew Mary, they
were friends with Mary. So he writes his gospel account
(10:06):
of the birth of Jesus from Mary's perspective. And then
we have Matthew. Matthew was a disciple. Matthew later went
on to become a leader of the church in Jerusalem. Well,
one of the other leaders of that church was James.
They have brother of Jesus, and James undoubtedly told Matthew
about the birth of Jesus from the perspective, kind of
(10:27):
the male perspective of the time. In fact, I was
talking to a mother recently. She has a couple of kids,
and she says, yeah, she said, ask any parent, the
mom and the dad, tell us the story of the
birth of your first child, and you'll get two different stories.
They're the same, and it's on the same event, but
from two different perspectives, right, And this is true in
Luke and Matthew. So we've got that shows us we've
(10:50):
got independent reports are not drawing from the same sources.
And so this is very early stuff goes right there
to the first century and therefore historically trustworthy. And then
what's interesting is Mark, who writes about the recollections of Peter,
who is also a disciple in one of the inner
(11:10):
circle of Jesus, and he starts his gospel later in
the life of Jesus. He doesn't get into the birth,
but very interestingly in Mark chapter six, verse three, he
refers to Jesus as being Mary's son. You would never
do that. In first century Jewish culture, it's always the
father's son, always be Joseph's son, even if Joseph were
(11:32):
deceased by then, you would always refer to a child
as the father son, Joseph's son. No, no, no, he
said Mary's son. And I think that's kind of a
wink to say, Yeah, I know Joseph isn't his biological father.
I get that, and it was Mary, So I think
that's an affirmation. And then John, of course, who wrote
the Last Gospel, he doesn't repeat a lot of things
(11:53):
from the earlier Gospels. He writes this grand theological piece
about the incarnation. The beginning was the Word, the Word
was with God, and the Word was God, and then
he came into our world and dwelled among us. So
he takes this big, theological, sweeping kind of language. But interestingly,
John had a disciple who he mentor. That guy wrote
(12:17):
a letter very earl and in that letter he refers
to Jesus as being quote really and truly born of
a virgin. Well, where do you get that idea? I
think from John It was one of the original disciples. Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
You know, Lee, what I love about you is you
are so investigative in nature obviously as a journalist, but
one thing you really seek to find is the evidence.
It reminds me of First Thessalonians five nineteen to twenty two.
Do not stifle the Holy Spirit, Do not scoff at prophecies,
but test everything that is said, hold on to what
is good, stay away from every kind of evil. And
(12:53):
when I think about you and your story, obviously this
book The Case for Christmas, you go back to a
very specific Christmas where early in your investigative journalist career,
the Delgado family taught you something back. I think it
was nineteen seventy four, is that right, That's right, that's right,
take us back into that moment.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, I was an atheist and I was assigned to
do a thirty part series about the most that's the
two families of Chicago, to profile one each day. So
the first family I did a profile one was a
Delgado family. Sixty year old Perfected Delgado had severe arthritis,
she couldn't work, she had two granddaughters, she was raising
an eleven year old and a thirteen year old, and
(13:32):
they had virtually no possessions. I mean they were virtually
devoid of anything. And I wrote an article that was
published on Thanksgiving Day, and I put their address on
West Homer Street in Chicago in the article because I
hope Tribune readers would respond. So on Christmas Eve, I'm
in the news room. There's no news going on. So
I got in a car and I drove back over
(13:53):
to their novel that they lived in on West Homer Street.
And they opened the door and it was like Macy's
in their place. I mean, the Tribune readers had showered
them with appliances and beds and furniture and rugs and
and food cartons and cartons overflowing with food, thousands of
dollars in cash, and and warm winter coats and scarves
(14:17):
and gloves. But what shocked me as an atheist was
what I interrupted, which was the Delgados were packaging up
much of their newfound wealth to give it away. And
I said, what are you doing? And and and perfected
in her halting English, said oh this is wonderful, this
is very nice, but we cannot have plenty while our
(14:39):
neighbors have nothing. This is what Jesus would want us
to do. And so I'm blown away by this. And
I said, well, well, are you grateful for all these
things that the Tribune readers have provided. She said, oh, yes,
this is wonderful. This is a gift from God. We
didn't deserve this. But she said, that is not God's
greatest gift that comes tomorrow. That is Jesus. And what
(15:03):
struck me is even when they had nothing, that family
had such an aura of love and grace. They didn't
feel victimized. They weren't. They didn't consider themselves to be deprived.
They had Jesus, and Jesus sustained them when they had nothing,
and here when they had plenty, they wanted to share
it with people who didn't have as much as they did.
(15:26):
And it just struck me that, even as an atheist,
I began to think I'd like to know this Jesus.
They know because I saw Jesus in them, in their generosity,
in their kindness, in their their their you know, just
the beauty of their lives despite their situation. And that
was a factor that was a link in a long
(15:47):
chain that ultimately led me to faith seven years later.
So I love the Dogados. I've tried over the years
to try to find them, and I think Perfect is
probably deceased because this happened nineteen seventy four. Step it
back then. But I can't find the grandchildren. I've tried.
Maybe there'll be listeners today and they'll contact me. I
think they probably got married and have different names now,
(16:09):
and I'd love to just say thank you, thank you
for embodying the love and generosity of Jesus in a
way that even an atheist with a hard heart and
a hardhead like me saw in you.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I'm going to stop this right there and jump in
to say, you're listening to bil Different.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I'm Zach Clinton.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors.
I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing.
Right after this. You're listening to Life Audio. You know
Lee your story. I think why it's so moving and
it's so touching. I was blessed to have been born
in a Christian home, mom and dad that loved God,
love each other, and loved me and my sister more
(16:47):
than anything in the world, and so I was raised
in the faith almost like by default. But there's a
lot of people out there that might be listening today
who they don't believe by default. They weren't raised around faith,
They didn't go to church, they haven't heard this gospel. Well,
they don't understand the virgin birth. They don't understand who
this baby in a manger is. They just celebrate Christmas, right,
They love Santa Claus, they love the gifts, they love
(17:08):
the joy this time of the year. But as you mentioned,
and I'll never forget interviewing you several years ago, and
we've done this a couple of times now, but when
you mentioned to me that your wife, you started seeing
some differences in your wife and she converted to Christianity,
and you were kind of rubbed the wrong way by it.
You wanted to disprove it, to discredit it, and you
did everything you could. But you made a statement, and
(17:28):
you said this, it actually would take more faith for
me to have remained an atheist than it would for
me to have converted to Christianity in the first place.
You mentioned how the del Gatto family was a peace
or a factor in that puzzle. But walk us through
a little bit about how you may not have believed
by default, but yet because of all of the overwhelming evidence,
you found your way understanding who that baby was.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
In the major.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, yeah, the God as kind of cracked open my
heart a bit. But my mind needed to understand this
because my background and journalism and laws. So I'm looking
for facts, corroboration, evidence, data, truth. And so my wife
became a Christian. I was going a divorce her because
of that. And yet I saw, as you say, these
positive things that impressed me in her life, the way
(18:15):
she related to me and the children. But then I
wanted the old leslie back. And so I thought, if
I could disprove the resurrection of Jesus and I could
rescue her from this gulf that she's gotten involved in.
Because Christmas is not just about the birth of the
son of God who lived the perfect life to show
us how to live. Yes, he did, but his mission
(18:35):
in life was to die. He was born to die
because that is the way that he was able to
pay the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed,
so he could offer forgiveness and eternal life as a
free gift of his grace. So his resurrection, which symbolized
his triumph over death, which confirmed his claims that he
(18:56):
is the unique son of God, that historic became the
lynchpin of Christianity. You know, there is evidence for the
virgin birth, there is evidence for the birth of Jesus.
But the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, that he
not only claimed to be God but backed it up
by returning from the dead, is so strong that, for instance,
many most of the facts that we accept as being
(19:16):
true about the ancient world, things about Alexander the Great
or whatever, when you dig down, you find the only
based on one source or maybe two sources of information.
And yet what I found in my investigation is that
when you look at the conviction of the disciples that
they encountered the resurrected Jesus, we have no fewer than
(19:38):
nine ancient sources inside and outside the New Testament confirming
and corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they encountered
the risen Christ. That is an avalanche of historical data
that points powerfully toward the truth that he did back
up his claim to being the son of God. The
evidence is so strong you could go to the numbers
(20:00):
the best. The most successful defense attorney who ever lived,
his name was Sirlinel Luku. He was a skeptic about
the resurrection. He was later knighted by Queen Elizabeth twice
became a Supreme Court member of his country, and he
was a skeptic. But then he did what I did.
He investigated the history, the evidence, and this was the
(20:20):
conclusion he said. I say unequivocally that the evidence for
the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it
compels acceptance by proof, which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.
This from the greatest the defense attorney that ever lived,
a guy who knows what evidence is. So you know, yes,
(20:41):
I needed my mind to be satisfied, not just my heart.
I know that's not true of everybody. Some people, they
hear the Gospel message, it resonates deeply within them. They
bend their needed Jesus, receive him as their Lord and savior.
I just had too many sticking points in my spiritual attourney.
I needed those. I needed the evidence.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
You know what, Lee, I'm just thinking about my mother
in law and my father in law. I don't know
if I've shared this with you in the past.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Maybe I have.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Jane and Chris Sherman are their names, but they were
both scientists for a very long time, and they didn't
grow up believing in Christianity. They weren't raised in the
faith whatsoever, and they ended up believing a different truth
than the absolute truth. And it were books like The
Case for Christ, the Case for Easter, the Case for
Christmas that really helped them grasp onto all of the
(21:27):
overwhelming evidence that helped them convert and lead them to
the Lord and deepen and strengthen their faith throughout the year.
So Lee, let me say this on behalf of my
family and my in laws, my wife were grateful for
you and just the feverish work at.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
That man that makes that makes my month, that is
that is just so, that is just so amazing, and
I can't take the credit for it. I really believe
that God took that book and has done something beyond
what I put into it. Yes, and you know, I
get stories almost every day of people who found God
through that book, and I think that's not what I did,
(22:04):
and it's not false modesty. I really believe I brote
the book. I did that, but God took it the
Holy Spirit like beyond anything I'd ever put into it.
And it's the joy of my life to hear stories
like that. People like Evil Knievel, you know, who came
to faith through the book and whose life was radically
changed at the end of his life. He became an
(22:25):
evangelist at the end of his life. It just makes
my day. It just nothing. You know, my goal now
as a Christians to drag as many people heaven with
me as I can.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I love that, and so Lee.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
One thing that we've noticed a lot, even in the
research and the data, is that about eighty to eighty
eight percent of I would just say people in America
are celebrating Christmas, They're hanging streamers, they're putting up trees,
celebrating Christmas light, seeing Christmas carols, but really only about
forty to forty five percent of Americans identify as Christians.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Lee, I'm interested.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I mean celebrating the holiday, but actually identifying as a
christ and walking the walk. Where's the discrepancy in the
difference there, my friend?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, it's a great question. I think. You know, political
folks like to use the term Rhino Republican in name only. Well,
unfortunately we have Christians in name only. They may have
grown up in a Christian culture, we are largely a
culture that is oriented towards Christianity. And they think, well,
because I'm born in the United States, I must be
(23:24):
a Christian, but you know, it's just not true. And
so they go through the emotions of enjoying Christmas and
it's fun and it's interesting and gift given. Who doesn't
like Christmas? But the real meaning of Christmas eludes them.
But I stay positive in that and say, you know what,
because people are more spiritually sensitive at Christmas because they're
(23:45):
kind of going through these motions of a cultural Christianity.
My hope in prayer is that they would have their
eyes open to the reality of what Christmas is all about,
especially in this Christmas season when we have God stirring
the culture in the aftermath of the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Very interesting to see that among young people those that
(24:06):
took some sort of a step as a result of
the assassination of Charlie Cook Kirk over three times as
many took a spiritual step as opposed to a political step.
And so there's something stirring in our culture. And my
hope is that people who are Christians in name only
become Christians through faith in Jesus Christ, receiving him as
(24:27):
their forgiver and leader, and then seeing the reality of
two Corinthians five seventeen, which is to say the old
has now gone and the new has come. They're born again.
To use John three to three language.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Hey man, my friend, you know something that you mentioned
to me a while back was that if we number
one believe but then received, we can become a child
of God. And as you mentioned, in the culture and
society we find ourselves in, there seems to be a stirring.
There's a hunger for holiness, there's a thirst for truth.
It's amazing to see what God is doing right here
right now.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, we believe, plus receive equals become. And I think
the problem and culture of many people believe Jesus. I
believe he's the son of God, but so what demons
believe that? Yeah, there needs to be a point in
time where we receive this free gift of forgiveness and
eternal life that He purchased for us on the cross
when he died as our substitute. And when we do
(25:19):
that we in a prayer, repentance, and faith, then we
become a child of God forever.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Hey, you're listening to the Build Different Podcasts. I'm your host,
doctor Zach Clinton, and today's guest is someone I deeply respect,
love and appreciate Lee Stroble. We're talking about the re
released case for Christmas and unpacking the evidence, the theology,
and the wonder behind the story.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
We celebrate every year.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Lee. You mentioned it's pocket size, less than one hundred pages,
cheap in price, inexpensive. It's an incredible gift for someone
this Christmas. Remind just all of our audience and our listeners.
Where can they pick up a copy today?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah? I call it spiritual stocking stuffer. I've been given away.
I bought three hundred copies of myself. You have to
buy your own book, as it turns out, So I
bought three hundred and I've been giving them away. I
did today. I gave two away today. Love this to
flight attendants and to the waitresses and waiters and hotel
clerks and people I encounter. And people are so funny
(26:15):
when you give them a book. It's like they clutch
it and say, oh, thank you, a book I love
to read. And people are so appreciative. And at Halloween
we gave out candy to the kids and then we
said here's here's something for your for your parents and
the one thirteen year old. I guess about his age.
One of the older trick or treaters looked at the book.
He said, no, I want to read this looks fascinating.
(26:37):
So yeah, any place people get books, you know, it's available.
I know at Mardell dot com they have it for
probably cheaper than anybody like you know, under three dollars.
And as I say, hobby Lobby bought half a million copies. Wow,
and they're giving it away to any customer between now
and Christmas because they're running out now. But that's another
(26:57):
place I get. I get pictures that people sent me
from hobby Lobby saying hey, I got your book for free,
And I always right back and say that's great. Why
don't you read it and then give it away to somebody.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I love that, Lee, It's an incredible resource, especially around
this time of the year. You know, one thing I
wanted to bring up today is we continue to unpack
that book.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Lee.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
There's a lot of misconceptions about the Christmas story. I think,
you know, we see them all in the movies, we
hear all about it sometimes from stages and Christmas plays
and more. But you know, you mentioned throughout the book
that sometimes there's some mistranslations. Sometimes we misunderstand Greek and
Hebrew words and what they really mean. Take us into
maybe some of those findings that we might be surprised by.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, here's the one that surprised me. You know. The
story that we typically hear at Christmas is that Mary
and Joseph because of the census they had to go
to register. They go to Beth Lamb because Joseph was
of the House of David, and they knock in the
door of an inn or a lodge, and the innkeeper says, sorry,
no room, and so they go off into a stable
(27:57):
among the animals and give birth and the baby put
into a manger or a feeding trough. That's probably not
what happened. That all depends on one word in the
Greek atalima, and how is that word to be translated,
Because what Luke says is the baby was laid in
the hay of a manger because there was no room
(28:19):
for them in the katalima. Does that mean an inn?
Probably not, because Luke only uses it one other time,
and when he does, it's a room in a private residence.
He uses another room like in the Good Samaritan story
about a commercial establishment an inn, and he uses the
word pandohean, which is the Greek word for a lodge
(28:40):
or an inn. So he knew what word to use
if he meant an inn. But I don't think he
meant an inn. In fact, as far back as the
year thirteen ninety five, John Wickliffe, in his English translation
of the New Testament, translated it as a private residence.
And that's probably what it means. It means a guest room.
(29:00):
In the New the NIV today, which is probably the
most popular translation, there is no inn. It's it's a
guest room. So let me explain what a first century
Jewish home look like in Bethlehem. It was one large
room divided into two parts. The larger part was the
living area. That's where they would live and sleep and
eat their meals. And then there were a couple of
(29:22):
steps down to a smaller area, and that's where the
animals were brought at night. You know, they may have
a couple of sheep, a couple of goats, and you
know how cute these animals are. They were like pets
to them, you know, a little sheep, the little little lambs.
And so there was a feeding trough, a manger there.
But there was also one in the living area, because
often the little sheep would come up the steps into
(29:44):
the living area and they would pet them and play
with them because they were like pets. So there were
two mangers. Now, the more wealthy people had a katali mah,
which was a guest room that had a separate entrance,
and that was a larger area for guests who would visit.
So what probably happened, according to a best translation of
(30:06):
that word, is that Mary and Joseph came to Bethlehem.
They knock on the door of a relative and say, hey,
we're here for the census, and the relative says, oh,
so good to see you, but sorry, the guest room,
the katali ma is already taken. You can come and
stay in the living area. And that is apparently where
Mary gave birth to Jesus. And then, yes, there is
(30:28):
a manger there, and yes, maybe a couple of the
animals did wonder what the commotion was about and come
up the steps and witness what was going on. And yes,
the baby was laid in the clean hay of a
feeding trough a manger there in the living area. That's
probably what happened. It is even unlikely that there would
have been an inn in Bethlehem in the first century.
It was a small town of five hundred people. It
(30:49):
wasn't on a major crossroads or anything. And to add
to that, it would have been virtually impossible for an
innkeeper to turn away a pregnant Jewish woman in the
first century. The value of hospitality was so high. If
you did that, you would be ostracized by that, you'd
be put out of business, you'd be run out of
(31:09):
town on a rail. You could not do that in
the first century. So I think that's probably the best understanding.
And again the NIV translated as guest room, right, there's
no room in the guest room. The idea, by the way,
that they gave birth in a stable or a cave
was popularized a couple of hundred years later. In the
(31:33):
year two hundred e d. There was a book of
fiction that was written. It didn't have historical roots. It's
called the proto Evangelism of Protovangelium of James, and it
doesn't have any connection to James. It's written way after
the fact. It's not historically trustworthy. And in that account,
Mary and Joseph are approaching Bethlham. They get within three
(31:54):
miles of Beth Lamb and she starts to get birth.
So they go into a cave and she gives birth
in a cave. That's with this idea that some people
think of of a cave of being the place it's
from a book of fiction, doesn't have a historical significance.
So that's probably what took place in the first century.
You know, I hate to bop any bubbles that there
(32:16):
was no innkeeper again, but it's probably not true.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yes, you know, Lee, I appreciate again just all of
the investigative efforts here and finding the real evidence behind
what actually happened, because those things really do matter, and
people that are skeptics they want to know those answers.
In chapter five of this book, you really tackle some
of the most commonly misunderstood questions about Christmas, and I
wanted to just tackle, just like rapid fire for a moment, just.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
A couple more of those.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
One of them was was Jesus actually born on December
twenty fifth, Because I know I've heard a lot of
different people, even a lot of different theologians, wrestle with
this idea.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yes, yes, and you know, the Bible doesn't tell us
we do not know from the Bible the day of
the year that he was born. And one of the
things was early Christians didn't care about birthdays. They didn't
celebrate birthdays. What's the celebrate you got born? So why
I mean they used to make fun of the Romans
because the Romans would celebrate birthdays. What the Christians celebrated
(33:12):
was the date of someone's martyrdom. So if you were
martyred on a certain date, that date was remembered, but
birthdays weren't remembered. So about over one hundred and fifty
years after the death of Jesus and his resurrection, people
began to wonder, yeat, what day was he born? Anyway,
we don't know, why don't we commemorate that? And so Tertullian,
who was an early Tristian leader in the year two
(33:33):
hundred a d. Said, well, let me figure it out. Well,
here's the thing in early Christianity. I know this sounds
a little weird, but in early Christianity there was a
very strong connection between creation and redemption. They believed there
was a huge link between those two things, and so
they believed the Messiah would have been conceived on the
(33:53):
same day of the calendar as the day that he
ultimately died. Wow, that's just their belief. So in two
hundred eight, Deetertullian says, well, let me find let me
figure out the date that Jesus died. So he calculated
based on the calendar, the Roman calendar, of the day,
that Jesus died on March the twenty fifth. Well, if
(34:15):
he died on March twenty fifth, therefore he had been
conceived on March the twenty fifth. Well, fast forward nine
months of gestation, and that gives you a birth on
December the twenty fifth.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
And that's what scholars believe may be the reason why
December twenty fifth became recognized as the birthday of Jesus.
In fact, interestingly, I found a reference in about the
same time frame written by sexist Julius Africanus. He was
a very early Christian historian. He kept track of things
that happened, and in his Chronology of Christianity, he actually
(34:48):
listed March twenty fifth as the conception of Jesus. When
the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary
was March. How would he know that. There's no way
he could have known that except he was trusting what
Tertullian had figured out. Oh, he died on March twenty fifth,
therefore he must have been conceived on March of twenty fifth. Yes,
(35:10):
so that's currently the best thinking of scholars as a
major PhD from Yale that documented all this, and I
think it's probably probably makes sense that that's where we
got December the twenty.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Fifth, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
So whether or not we actually know the truth of this, right,
Christmas December twenty fifth is really the day of remembrance,
on the day that we celebrate the birth of Jesus,
our coming savior.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Leah.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Another fun when I got to ask you, is who
were the magi, right, these wise men that came And
also in hearing that, you know, maybe it wasn't a cave,
or it maybe wasn't just like this this manger that
was just random out there with people to come to.
It was actually in somebody's guest room. Did they actually
come and really give their respects in these gifts to
this baby Jesus?
Speaker 3 (35:54):
They probably not in that original scene, right, all right?
The mage i were quote Unqung wise men from the east,
probably Persia, and they were astrologers manage I were not
well regarded by the Hebrew people of the time. Daniel
call them enchanters. They were involved with some things that
(36:15):
God doesn't really like us to be involved in, things
like astrology and so forth. So they were not very popular.
But they came to pay homage, maybe at the direction
of a king of the newborn King of the Jews.
How did they know, Well, there was the star of Bethlehem.
(36:38):
What does that mean? The word star in the Greek
is flexible. It could mean a star, it could mean
a planet, it could mean a comet. It's some celestial
object of some sort that it's flexible enough. So what
did they see that told them that the King of
(36:59):
the Jews born, Well, we don't know exactly. It was
not Haley's comment because Haley's comment was in twelve BC.
Jesus was probably born in five or six BC. We
know that because Herod was still alive when Jesus was born.
He died in four BC. So Jesus was probably born
in five PC or maybe six PC. So what celestial
(37:22):
event took place back then? Well, there were a couple
very interesting ones. One was an unusual planetary conjunction of
Jupiter and Saturn. It took place in the constellation of Pisces.
Back then. Now we wouldn't know, we wouldn't notice that.
But these astrologers would have been amazed by that. Raymond Brown,
(37:44):
the great Christian theologian, says that they would have discerned
from where that happened in the heavens, that a ruler,
a Hebrew ruler ultimately of the world, was coming into
existence in the world, and so they began to seek him. Well,
where do you go to see the King of Jews?
You go to Jerusalem, right, So they go to Jerusalem,
(38:05):
they go to Herod and said, hey, where's the King
of Jews. Herod freaks out, what do you mean. I'm
the King. I don't want some competitor, And so he
gets his people together and says, where's this guy supposed
to be born? And they say, well, Micah five verse two,
five hundred years earlier predicted he'd be born in Bethlehem.
So Herod says to the Magi, go to Bethlehem, and
(38:28):
so they go, and they see the star again and
it leads them. Interestingly. It says to the child, doesn't
say to the baby, says to the child. So the
child have gotten a little older by then, and so
they pay homage by bringing gold, which represents the royalty
of Jesus, frankincens, which represents the priestly nature of Jesus,
(38:52):
and mrr interestingly, which was used in embalming. As we said,
Jesus was born to die as a sacrifice for the
sins of humankind, and actually on the cross, Jesus was
offered as a painkiller, a mixture of murder and water.
So they come and they worship. But here's the significance
(39:14):
theologically of this. In their first century Jewish culture, the
Jews believe that the Messiah who would come would be
a political rescuer. He would rescue them from the oppression
of the Romans and elevate the Jewish nation above other nations.
That's kind of what they thought. The fact that these pagan,
(39:35):
gentile magi came to worship the Christ Child tells us
that he was not just the redeemer of the nation
of Israel, but he's also the redeemer of the world
for everybody, even these, even these magi who were gentiles,
they had come to worship. So salvation is for everyone
(39:57):
who comes to Jesus. In repentance and faith that I
think is the big significance of the magi coming.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's amazing to hear just all these different questions that again,
you bring some clarity to. In chapter five of the
Case for Christmas. I loved reading through it, right, even
a question on Santa Claus, who the real Santa Clauz
is Xmas?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
And more.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
But I think really what I wanted to highlight here
as we kind of wrap up our conversation together, my
friend is again who this baby named Jesus really was.
In Matthew sixteen and Mark chapter eight and Luke chapter nine,
there's this account that Jesus asks his disciples, who do
you say that I am? Up to that point, a
lot of people were saying a lot of different things, right,
(40:39):
Maybe he's a prophet, maybe he's Elijah. All of these
different things are going around about this guy who's performing miracles.
Nobody quite understood who he was. And I'll never forget
lee years ago, I was sitting in church a pastor,
I think it was around Easter time. A pastor was
giving a message and he said this, He proclaimed this
beautiful depiction of who Jesus was. But then he said
it matters not who I say that he is. What
(41:01):
matters most is who you say that he is. Lee
What I would love to kind of ask you as
we near the end here is who is that baby
in a manger? And who is this person of Jesus.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Well, let's go to him and see what he says.
He got up before a group of people in John ten,
verse thirty, and he says, I and the Father are one,
and the Greek word for one there is not masculine
as a neuter, which means Jesus was not saying I
and the Father are the same person. He was saying,
I and the Father are the same thing. We're one
in nature, we're one in essence. And the audience understood
(41:37):
what he was saying. They picked up stones to kill
him because they say, they said, you, you're just a man.
You're claiming to be God. So Jesus made the claim
that he is the unique son of God, and that
is the Christ Child, that is the child we worship
on Christmas, having entered into human history. In fact, i'd
encourage your viewers and listeners to go to Philippians chapter two,
(42:01):
and that may be the first Christmas carol. It's apparently
from a hymn from the earliest days of Christianity, and
it describes how Jesus, being God and having all the
perks of heaven, he didn't cling to that because there
was a mission for him to accomplish, and so he
kind of sets aside the perks that he has as
(42:23):
the creator of the cosmos. He's kind of sets out aside,
and he comes into our world and he ends up
dying this this horrible death on the cross to pay
the penalty for our sins so that we could spend
eternity with him in heaven. And that's a beautiful reading
of maybe the first Christmas hymn, Christmas Carol. It's called
(42:45):
the Kenosis in Greek. It is the incarnation, which is
mind boggling. The infinite God becomes finite, the eternal God
becomes time bound, the creator of all comes into his creation.
I mean, this is this is you know what I like.
Somebody once said this, and I think this is so true.
(43:06):
The best stories are the ones that turn out to
be true, and this one is true, and that's what
makes their best story.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
We can make up all kinds of fanciful stories and
they're fun and intriguing and inspiring. But the best stories
are true, like this one.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
The best stories are true, Lee, I want to close
this way. It's how I wrap up every episode. I
just think about people during the Christmas season. Yes, it's
one of magic, it's one of joy, the lights, the music,
so many things that we know and love. But there's
a lot of people out there who are hurting with
a heavy heart. It's often the time where some wounds,
grief and mourning, they actually get exacerbated around these times,
(43:44):
the holidays, anniversaries and so much more. I'm thinking about
somebody who's listening today, who maybe is experiencing disappointment, discouragement, despair,
maybe even still a lack of certainty, and who this
Jesus is.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I know this.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
You spend a lot of time with Lewis Palau as
you wrote the book The Case for Heaven, But then
also as you've written Seeing the Supernatural, and you've studied
near death experiences, when you know the certainty of Jesus is,
who that baby was in the manger, the life that
he lived, the substitutionary death he died in our place,
rising again so that we might spend eternal life with
(44:18):
him give us one final pressing word, especially to that
person out there listening today with the discouraged and weary heart,
as to what the hope of heaven really means.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, if you're going through that this Christmas season and
it does tend to bring those feelings to the surface,
I would say, don't picture Christmas as being about a
baby in a manger. Think about Christmas as being that baby.
Is not just a helpless child born into this world.
This is the creator of all who loves you so
(44:49):
much that he gave up the perks of heaven to
come into our world so that you could know him personally,
and so you can receive forgiveness through him and have
the doors of Heaven flung open for you someday. Picture
him as you're the one who loves you, the one
who wants to extend grace to you. And I hope
(45:11):
that this Sunday you'll go to church, you know, find
people who will love you and who also love this Jesus.
And I think sometimes when we feel hurt and we
feel disappointed, we tend to get isolated. Don't be isolated
this Christmas. Go to a local church and meet some
(45:31):
people who will love you as they do. Love the Savior.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Lee, my friend, just thank you for not just sharing
your expertise, but your story, your heart, your passion for truth.
The case for Christmas. It's more than a book. It's
an invitation for people to move beyond nostalgia and sentimentality
and to truly investigate the most important claim in history
that God became flesh and dwelt among us. Listrobo, my friend, again,
(46:00):
you are a gift, You're a blessing. Thank you for
everything that you continually do and the impact you continually
have on my life.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Marry Christmas to you and yours. We love and appreciate you,
my friend.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Thank you as we text and say, I appreciate you,
Zach and all your listeners, and I hope everyone just says.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
A great Christmas to all of our listeners, whether you're
exploring faith, strengthening your faith, or maybe sharing your faith.
This conversation reminds us that Christianity is not built on
blind belief, but on a confident hope grounded in evidence, history,
and the life changing power of Jesus Christ. This Christmas,
may you rediscover the wonder of the Major and the
(46:35):
one who stepped into it. For you. Thank you for
joining us today. I'm doctor Zach Clinton. This is the
Built Different Podcast. Until next time, stay grateful, stay grounded,
and remember you were made to be Built different.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Merry Christmas, my friends,
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
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can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread
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people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's
Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,
(00:27):
your host, and each week I come to you exclusively
on the Life Audio podcast Network. I'm proud to partner
with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family
friendly podcasts for a new generation.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I Built Different.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to
help push you past your limits and reach goals you
never thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So then,
just as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live
your lives in him, rooted and built up in him.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Amen. Now let's roll.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Wello everybody, and welcome back into another edition of the
Built Different podcast. As always, I'll be your host today,
doctor Zach Clinton, and let me start out by saying,
I'm really excited for today's conversation because one of my
favorite times of the year is finally here. You guessed it, Christmas.
(01:18):
So let me start out by wishing you and yours
are very blessed in Merry Christmas. I hope and pray
that today and every day you would experience and feel
the nearness of God a little bit more. And today,
as we step into the season and holiday of anticipation,
joy and reflection, I can't think of a better guest
to help us get our hearts and mind centered than
today's very own Lee Strobel is a New York Times
(01:39):
bestselling author, former award winning investigative journalist, and one of
the most influential apologists of our day and age. You
know him from The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith,
The Case for Easter, the Case for Miracles, Seeing the Supernatural,
and so many others. But today we get to dive
into something special is newly re released and nearly ninety
percent reworked in re written book, The Case for Christmas.
(02:02):
So before we get into the deep stuff, Lee, my friend,
thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, Zach, always great to be with you. I sure
appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I always love having you on here because, as I
mentioned before, I even press record the impact you have
had on my life and on countless family members, and
I know countless others.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Has been astronomical.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
So grateful for you and just what God is continuing
to do in and through you. But Lee, let me
say this, It's Christmas time and there's something magical in
the air. I don't know about you, but I love
the trees and the lights and the stockings and the
gifts and the music and the magic Lee for you.
And I'll say this, it's not just magical for Christians,
but for everybody. What is it about this time of
the year, in this season that makes it so magical?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah. You know a lot of us Christians like to
complain that, oh, Christmas has gotten secularized and commercialized and
so forth. But the truth is the fact that it
kind of dominates our cultural consciousness for a month or
so every year. I think speaks to people who are
not Christians, spiritually curious people. You know, studies are showing
(03:05):
that people are more open spiritually during the Christmas season.
More non believers come to Christmas services than any other
time of the year. So there's something in the culture
in the moment, and something in the season that I
think is drawing people. God is stirring something, and you know,
Colossian says we should seize every opportunity to share Jesus
(03:27):
to be strong, salt and bright light to people who
are spiritually curious, and this is our opportunity to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
We know, as we continue to delve into this conversation today,
we're going to talk about the Nativity scene, the story
behind Christmas, and so much more. But you know, Lee,
as I begin thinking about Christmas and I mentioned it's
one of my favorite times of the year. It's been
a tradition in our household for countless years and it's
been passed down through the generations to make this season
one that is very special.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
One I know my dad mentioned.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
To you in an early earlier interview a couple of
weeks back, is we used to go up to my
grandfather's trailer, and that trailer really was I'm only supposed
to sleep about maybe eight or so. We'd pack about
twenty five to thirty of us in their lead and
we would just have trees everywhere, presents everywhere, but it
was just filled with love and it was just moments
of tradition. Door prizes were something my papacy used to
(04:15):
give out. If you walked in the door, you got
a prize. I remember getting pocket knife was on I
was like four or five years Oldly it was something else.
But we love carrying traditions. I would love to hear
from you. I'm just even to somebody like in my
next generation the importance of traditions and how they really
are the glue that whole families together.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, they really are. And you know, it's a great
way to get into a conversation with someone who's maybe
not a Christian this time of year to say, what
are the traditions that you had growing up around Christmas?
Because everybody observes it in one way or the other,
and it's a great way to get into conversations. Hey,
what was Christmas like for you when you were five
or six years old? And often they'll say, oh, well,
you know, it was great. We'd we'd have big tree
(04:56):
and we'd open presents one at a time and sell
great that and then the cousins would come over and
we go to church. And then you say, oh, wow,
that sounds great. Hey do you still go to church? Well, no,
you know, I kind of stopped going in college. Really,
how come and now you're into a spiritual conversation. So
the Christmas traditions really do open up a bridge that
(05:21):
we can use to get into these kind of spiritual
engagements with people who are far from God.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I love that the engagement around traditions really is a
tool for evangelism. Lee, I got to ask a fun
question up front before we dive into the deep stuff.
What are some of your favorite traditions in the Strobel household.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Well, it's you know, we always get the grandkids together,
you know, every Christmas, many of them as we can,
because my son, as you know, as a professor of
theology at the Tablet School Theology in California, So we
got two younger grandkids out there. So we'll have the
older grandkids gathering here in Houston, Texas and have a
great time at church. On Christmas Eve, we always go
(05:59):
out to ironically an Asian restaurant. I don't know why,
but it's kind of tradition that we go to an
Asian restaurant on Christmas Eve and enjoy that, and then
the next morning open Presence and uh, you know, read
the accounts of the Birth of Jesus from Luke and
from Matthew and you know, and just enjoy each other's company.
(06:21):
And now now my older grandkids getting old, now they
got boyfriends and fiances that they bring along, so it
makes it even more fun.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It's amazing how the family just keeps on growing, isn't it.
And I'll tell you this, Lee, I love some Asian food,
Japanese food, some of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So I'd be joining that.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Whatever happened to turkey, I guess that's Thanksgiving? I like
turkey dog on it.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Lee.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Let me dive in here for a moment to kind
of the topic of our conversation. You've written countless best
selling books, as I mentioned, several that have been influential
in my life and a lot of people that I
know and love. But the one that we'll be diving
into today is one that you recently re released, The
Case for Christmas, and I'd be interested. I know ninety
percent I think is rewritten or kind of reworked in
(07:06):
some way, shape or form. I'd love to hear just
why did you really feel the need to go back
at such a time as this to kind of re
release this very important work.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Well, you just said such a time as this, I
believe God is stirring our culture, and I wanted to
update the book. There have been some discoveries in recent years,
historical discoveries, archaeological discoveries that I wanted to bring into
the conversation that have a bearing on the Christmas story,
and I wanted to just go from A to Z
(07:38):
and write a fresh account. I actually wrote it on
Christmas Eve last year. Yeah, I was. I was sitting
at home and there was Christmas and we've just been
to church and and that's when I began to write
the book in the midst of that Christmas celebration. So
I wanted to have something fresh, something up to date,
(07:58):
because I and something has Gospel in it, something that's inexpensive.
You can get online for a couple of bucks and
go to hobby lobby. They'll give it to you for free.
Have you bought half a million copies and are giving
them away for free to people between now and Christmas.
We want to get it as many hands as we
can because the Gospel is in it. And my hope
and prayer is that people this Christmas season will be
(08:20):
intrigued by the Christmas story and you know, delve into
it and find Jesus.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
As you mentioned it's inexpensive, it's about pocket size, but
at the same time, it's less than one hundred pages.
So if you're not somebody that likes to read, there's
no excuse here. This is an incredible book. It's an
incredible read, and I believe it's a very valuable asset
this time of the year, especially for those in need.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
You know, something that I really.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Appreciate about the book, and one of the traditions that
my wife Evelyn and I have actually dove into the
last couple of years is the book. And I should say,
the Gospel of Luke has twenty four chapters, and so
we read a chapter a day leading up to Christmas Day,
and recently, obviously, we read through Luke chapter two on
December second. And that's kind of the Nativity story, that's
the Christmas story that we read at so many of
(09:04):
our family dinners and our pot lucks and our traditions
and all of these things. And you talk a little
bit about Luke two, and you dive into it as
would be, but you really focus on the significance of
the virgin birth, and you talk about kind of the
different correlations between Luke and Matthew in the book, I'd
love for you take us into that intilod.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, a lot of skeptics, like I used to be
an atheist, and a lot of skepticals say, hey, how
come only two of the gospels really have any details
about the birth of Jesus if it was so important,
the virgin birth. And the answer is, we have two,
first of all, very early different independent accounts. Now we
have the Gospel of Luke. Luke, by the way, who
doesn't say, oh, I'm writing something once upon a time,
(09:44):
something that happened in the distant midst of the past.
Now he says, I carefully investigated everything so I could
write an orderly account about the certainty of what took place.
He was a first century investigative reporter. I believe he
interviewed Mary. If not, I believe he interviewed Anna or Susannah,
who he mentions in his gospel. They knew Mary, they
were friends with Mary. So he writes his gospel account
(10:06):
of the birth of Jesus from Mary's perspective. And then
we have Matthew. Matthew was a disciple. Matthew later went
on to become a leader of the church in Jerusalem. Well,
one of the other leaders of that church was James.
They have brother of Jesus, and James undoubtedly told Matthew
about the birth of Jesus from the perspective, kind of
(10:27):
the male perspective of the time. In fact, I was
talking to a mother recently. She has a couple of kids,
and she says, yeah, she said, ask any parent, the
mom and the dad, tell us the story of the
birth of your first child, and you'll get two different stories.
They're the same, and it's on the same event, but
from two different perspectives, right, And this is true in
Luke and Matthew. So we've got that shows us we've
(10:50):
got independent reports are not drawing from the same sources.
And so this is very early stuff goes right there
to the first century and therefore historically trustworthy. And then
what's interesting is Mark, who writes about the recollections of Peter,
who is also a disciple in one of the inner
(11:10):
circle of Jesus, and he starts his gospel later in
the life of Jesus. He doesn't get into the birth,
but very interestingly in Mark chapter six, verse three, he
refers to Jesus as being Mary's son. You would never
do that. In first century Jewish culture, it's always the
father's son, always be Joseph's son, even if Joseph were
(11:32):
deceased by then, you would always refer to a child
as the father son, Joseph's son. No, no, no, he
said Mary's son. And I think that's kind of a
wink to say, Yeah, I know Joseph isn't his biological father.
I get that, and it was Mary, So I think
that's an affirmation. And then John, of course, who wrote
the Last Gospel, he doesn't repeat a lot of things
(11:53):
from the earlier Gospels. He writes this grand theological piece
about the incarnation. The beginning was the Word, the Word
was with God, and the Word was God, and then
he came into our world and dwelled among us. So
he takes this big, theological, sweeping kind of language. But interestingly,
John had a disciple who he mentor. That guy wrote
(12:17):
a letter very earl and in that letter he refers
to Jesus as being quote really and truly born of
a virgin. Well, where do you get that idea? I
think from John It was one of the original disciples. Wow.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
You know, Lee, what I love about you is you
are so investigative in nature obviously as a journalist, but
one thing you really seek to find is the evidence.
It reminds me of First Thessalonians five nineteen to twenty two.
Do not stifle the Holy Spirit, Do not scoff at prophecies,
but test everything that is said, hold on to what
is good, stay away from every kind of evil. And
(12:53):
when I think about you and your story, obviously this
book The Case for Christmas, you go back to a
very specific Christmas where early in your investigative journalist career,
the Delgado family taught you something back. I think it
was nineteen seventy four, is that right, That's right, that's right,
take us back into that moment.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, I was an atheist and I was assigned to
do a thirty part series about the most that's the
two families of Chicago, to profile one each day. So
the first family I did a profile one was a
Delgado family. Sixty year old Perfected Delgado had severe arthritis,
she couldn't work, she had two granddaughters, she was raising
an eleven year old and a thirteen year old, and
(13:32):
they had virtually no possessions. I mean they were virtually
devoid of anything. And I wrote an article that was
published on Thanksgiving Day, and I put their address on
West Homer Street in Chicago in the article because I
hope Tribune readers would respond. So on Christmas Eve, I'm
in the news room. There's no news going on. So
I got in a car and I drove back over
(13:53):
to their novel that they lived in on West Homer Street.
And they opened the door and it was like Macy's
in their place. I mean, the Tribune readers had showered
them with appliances and beds and furniture and rugs and
and food cartons and cartons overflowing with food, thousands of
dollars in cash, and and warm winter coats and scarves
(14:17):
and gloves. But what shocked me as an atheist was
what I interrupted, which was the Delgados were packaging up
much of their newfound wealth to give it away. And
I said, what are you doing? And and and perfected
in her halting English, said oh this is wonderful, this
is very nice, but we cannot have plenty while our
(14:39):
neighbors have nothing. This is what Jesus would want us
to do. And so I'm blown away by this. And
I said, well, well, are you grateful for all these
things that the Tribune readers have provided. She said, oh, yes,
this is wonderful. This is a gift from God. We
didn't deserve this. But she said, that is not God's
greatest gift that comes tomorrow. That is Jesus. And what
(15:03):
struck me is even when they had nothing, that family
had such an aura of love and grace. They didn't
feel victimized. They weren't. They didn't consider themselves to be deprived.
They had Jesus, and Jesus sustained them when they had nothing,
and here when they had plenty, they wanted to share
it with people who didn't have as much as they did.
(15:26):
And it just struck me that, even as an atheist,
I began to think I'd like to know this Jesus.
They know because I saw Jesus in them, in their generosity,
in their kindness, in their their their you know, just
the beauty of their lives despite their situation. And that
was a factor that was a link in a long
(15:47):
chain that ultimately led me to faith seven years later.
So I love the Dogados. I've tried over the years
to try to find them, and I think Perfect is
probably deceased because this happened nineteen seventy four. Step it
back then. But I can't find the grandchildren. I've tried.
Maybe there'll be listeners today and they'll contact me. I
think they probably got married and have different names now,
(16:09):
and I'd love to just say thank you, thank you
for embodying the love and generosity of Jesus in a
way that even an atheist with a hard heart and
a hardhead like me saw in you.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I'm going to stop this right there and jump in
to say, you're listening to bil Different.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I'm Zach Clinton.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors.
I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing.
Right after this. You're listening to Life Audio. You know
Lee your story. I think why it's so moving and
it's so touching. I was blessed to have been born
in a Christian home, mom and dad that loved God,
love each other, and loved me and my sister more
(16:47):
than anything in the world, and so I was raised
in the faith almost like by default. But there's a
lot of people out there that might be listening today
who they don't believe by default. They weren't raised around faith,
They didn't go to church, they haven't heard this gospel. Well,
they don't understand the virgin birth. They don't understand who
this baby in a manger is. They just celebrate Christmas, right,
They love Santa Claus, they love the gifts, they love
(17:08):
the joy this time of the year. But as you mentioned,
and I'll never forget interviewing you several years ago, and
we've done this a couple of times now, but when
you mentioned to me that your wife, you started seeing
some differences in your wife and she converted to Christianity,
and you were kind of rubbed the wrong way by it.
You wanted to disprove it, to discredit it, and you
did everything you could. But you made a statement, and
(17:28):
you said this, it actually would take more faith for
me to have remained an atheist than it would for
me to have converted to Christianity in the first place.
You mentioned how the del Gatto family was a peace
or a factor in that puzzle. But walk us through
a little bit about how you may not have believed
by default, but yet because of all of the overwhelming evidence,
you found your way understanding who that baby was.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
In the major.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, yeah, the God as kind of cracked open my
heart a bit. But my mind needed to understand this
because my background and journalism and laws. So I'm looking
for facts, corroboration, evidence, data, truth. And so my wife
became a Christian. I was going a divorce her because
of that. And yet I saw, as you say, these
positive things that impressed me in her life, the way
(18:15):
she related to me and the children. But then I
wanted the old leslie back. And so I thought, if
I could disprove the resurrection of Jesus and I could
rescue her from this gulf that she's gotten involved in.
Because Christmas is not just about the birth of the
son of God who lived the perfect life to show
us how to live. Yes, he did, but his mission
(18:35):
in life was to die. He was born to die
because that is the way that he was able to
pay the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed,
so he could offer forgiveness and eternal life as a
free gift of his grace. So his resurrection, which symbolized
his triumph over death, which confirmed his claims that he
(18:56):
is the unique son of God, that historic became the
lynchpin of Christianity. You know, there is evidence for the
virgin birth, there is evidence for the birth of Jesus.
But the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, that he
not only claimed to be God but backed it up
by returning from the dead, is so strong that, for instance,
many most of the facts that we accept as being
(19:16):
true about the ancient world, things about Alexander the Great
or whatever, when you dig down, you find the only
based on one source or maybe two sources of information.
And yet what I found in my investigation is that
when you look at the conviction of the disciples that
they encountered the resurrected Jesus, we have no fewer than
(19:38):
nine ancient sources inside and outside the New Testament confirming
and corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they encountered
the risen Christ. That is an avalanche of historical data
that points powerfully toward the truth that he did back
up his claim to being the son of God. The
evidence is so strong you could go to the numbers
(20:00):
the best. The most successful defense attorney who ever lived,
his name was Sirlinel Luku. He was a skeptic about
the resurrection. He was later knighted by Queen Elizabeth twice
became a Supreme Court member of his country, and he
was a skeptic. But then he did what I did.
He investigated the history, the evidence, and this was the
(20:20):
conclusion he said. I say unequivocally that the evidence for
the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it
compels acceptance by proof, which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.
This from the greatest the defense attorney that ever lived,
a guy who knows what evidence is. So you know, yes,
(20:41):
I needed my mind to be satisfied, not just my heart.
I know that's not true of everybody. Some people, they
hear the Gospel message, it resonates deeply within them. They
bend their needed Jesus, receive him as their Lord and savior.
I just had too many sticking points in my spiritual attourney.
I needed those. I needed the evidence.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
You know what, Lee, I'm just thinking about my mother
in law and my father in law. I don't know
if I've shared this with you in the past.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Maybe I have.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Jane and Chris Sherman are their names, but they were
both scientists for a very long time, and they didn't
grow up believing in Christianity. They weren't raised in the
faith whatsoever, and they ended up believing a different truth
than the absolute truth. And it were books like The
Case for Christ, the Case for Easter, the Case for
Christmas that really helped them grasp onto all of the
(21:27):
overwhelming evidence that helped them convert and lead them to
the Lord and deepen and strengthen their faith throughout the year.
So Lee, let me say this on behalf of my
family and my in laws, my wife were grateful for
you and just the feverish work at.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
That man that makes that makes my month, that is
that is just so, that is just so amazing, and
I can't take the credit for it. I really believe
that God took that book and has done something beyond
what I put into it. Yes, and you know, I
get stories almost every day of people who found God
through that book, and I think that's not what I did,
(22:04):
and it's not false modesty. I really believe I brote
the book. I did that, but God took it the
Holy Spirit like beyond anything I'd ever put into it.
And it's the joy of my life to hear stories
like that. People like Evil Knievel, you know, who came
to faith through the book and whose life was radically
changed at the end of his life. He became an
(22:25):
evangelist at the end of his life. It just makes
my day. It just nothing. You know, my goal now
as a Christians to drag as many people heaven with
me as I can.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I love that, and so Lee.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
One thing that we've noticed a lot, even in the
research and the data, is that about eighty to eighty
eight percent of I would just say people in America
are celebrating Christmas, They're hanging streamers, they're putting up trees,
celebrating Christmas light, seeing Christmas carols, but really only about
forty to forty five percent of Americans identify as Christians.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Lee, I'm interested.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I mean celebrating the holiday, but actually identifying as a
christ and walking the walk. Where's the discrepancy in the
difference there, my friend?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, it's a great question. I think. You know, political
folks like to use the term Rhino Republican in name only. Well,
unfortunately we have Christians in name only. They may have
grown up in a Christian culture, we are largely a
culture that is oriented towards Christianity. And they think, well,
because I'm born in the United States, I must be
(23:24):
a Christian, but you know, it's just not true. And
so they go through the emotions of enjoying Christmas and
it's fun and it's interesting and gift given. Who doesn't
like Christmas? But the real meaning of Christmas eludes them.
But I stay positive in that and say, you know what,
because people are more spiritually sensitive at Christmas because they're
(23:45):
kind of going through these motions of a cultural Christianity.
My hope in prayer is that they would have their
eyes open to the reality of what Christmas is all about,
especially in this Christmas season when we have God stirring
the culture in the aftermath of the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Very interesting to see that among young people those that
(24:06):
took some sort of a step as a result of
the assassination of Charlie Cook Kirk over three times as
many took a spiritual step as opposed to a political step.
And so there's something stirring in our culture. And my
hope is that people who are Christians in name only
become Christians through faith in Jesus Christ, receiving him as
(24:27):
their forgiver and leader, and then seeing the reality of
two Corinthians five seventeen, which is to say the old
has now gone and the new has come. They're born again.
To use John three to three language.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Hey man, my friend, you know something that you mentioned
to me a while back was that if we number
one believe but then received, we can become a child
of God. And as you mentioned, in the culture and
society we find ourselves in, there seems to be a stirring.
There's a hunger for holiness, there's a thirst for truth.
It's amazing to see what God is doing right here
right now.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, we believe, plus receive equals become. And I think
the problem and culture of many people believe Jesus. I
believe he's the son of God, but so what demons
believe that? Yeah, there needs to be a point in
time where we receive this free gift of forgiveness and
eternal life that He purchased for us on the cross
when he died as our substitute. And when we do
(25:19):
that we in a prayer, repentance, and faith, then we
become a child of God forever.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Hey, you're listening to the Build Different Podcasts. I'm your host,
doctor Zach Clinton, and today's guest is someone I deeply respect,
love and appreciate Lee Stroble. We're talking about the re
released case for Christmas and unpacking the evidence, the theology,
and the wonder behind the story.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
We celebrate every year.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Lee. You mentioned it's pocket size, less than one hundred pages,
cheap in price, inexpensive. It's an incredible gift for someone
this Christmas. Remind just all of our audience and our listeners.
Where can they pick up a copy today?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah? I call it spiritual stocking stuffer. I've been given away.
I bought three hundred copies of myself. You have to
buy your own book, as it turns out, So I
bought three hundred and I've been giving them away. I
did today. I gave two away today. Love this to
flight attendants and to the waitresses and waiters and hotel
clerks and people I encounter. And people are so funny
(26:15):
when you give them a book. It's like they clutch
it and say, oh, thank you, a book I love
to read. And people are so appreciative. And at Halloween
we gave out candy to the kids and then we
said here's here's something for your for your parents and
the one thirteen year old. I guess about his age.
One of the older trick or treaters looked at the book.
He said, no, I want to read this looks fascinating.
(26:37):
So yeah, any place people get books, you know, it's available.
I know at Mardell dot com they have it for
probably cheaper than anybody like you know, under three dollars.
And as I say, hobby Lobby bought half a million copies. Wow,
and they're giving it away to any customer between now
and Christmas because they're running out now. But that's another
(26:57):
place I get. I get pictures that people sent me
from hobby Lobby saying hey, I got your book for free,
And I always right back and say that's great. Why
don't you read it and then give it away to somebody.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I love that, Lee, It's an incredible resource, especially around
this time of the year. You know, one thing I
wanted to bring up today is we continue to unpack
that book.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Lee.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
There's a lot of misconceptions about the Christmas story. I think,
you know, we see them all in the movies, we
hear all about it sometimes from stages and Christmas plays
and more. But you know, you mentioned throughout the book
that sometimes there's some mistranslations. Sometimes we misunderstand Greek and
Hebrew words and what they really mean. Take us into
maybe some of those findings that we might be surprised by.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, here's the one that surprised me. You know. The
story that we typically hear at Christmas is that Mary
and Joseph because of the census they had to go
to register. They go to Beth Lamb because Joseph was
of the House of David, and they knock in the
door of an inn or a lodge, and the innkeeper says, sorry,
no room, and so they go off into a stable
(27:57):
among the animals and give birth and the baby put
into a manger or a feeding trough. That's probably not
what happened. That all depends on one word in the
Greek atalima, and how is that word to be translated,
Because what Luke says is the baby was laid in
the hay of a manger because there was no room
(28:19):
for them in the katalima. Does that mean an inn?
Probably not, because Luke only uses it one other time,
and when he does, it's a room in a private residence.
He uses another room like in the Good Samaritan story
about a commercial establishment an inn, and he uses the
word pandohean, which is the Greek word for a lodge
(28:40):
or an inn. So he knew what word to use
if he meant an inn. But I don't think he
meant an inn. In fact, as far back as the
year thirteen ninety five, John Wickliffe, in his English translation
of the New Testament, translated it as a private residence.
And that's probably what it means. It means a guest room.
(29:00):
In the New the NIV today, which is probably the
most popular translation, there is no inn. It's it's a
guest room. So let me explain what a first century
Jewish home look like in Bethlehem. It was one large
room divided into two parts. The larger part was the
living area. That's where they would live and sleep and
eat their meals. And then there were a couple of
(29:22):
steps down to a smaller area, and that's where the
animals were brought at night. You know, they may have
a couple of sheep, a couple of goats, and you
know how cute these animals are. They were like pets
to them, you know, a little sheep, the little little lambs.
And so there was a feeding trough, a manger there.
But there was also one in the living area, because
often the little sheep would come up the steps into
(29:44):
the living area and they would pet them and play
with them because they were like pets. So there were
two mangers. Now, the more wealthy people had a katali mah,
which was a guest room that had a separate entrance,
and that was a larger area for guests who would visit.
So what probably happened, according to a best translation of
(30:06):
that word, is that Mary and Joseph came to Bethlehem.
They knock on the door of a relative and say, hey,
we're here for the census, and the relative says, oh,
so good to see you, but sorry, the guest room,
the katali ma is already taken. You can come and
stay in the living area. And that is apparently where
Mary gave birth to Jesus. And then, yes, there is
(30:28):
a manger there, and yes, maybe a couple of the
animals did wonder what the commotion was about and come
up the steps and witness what was going on. And yes,
the baby was laid in the clean hay of a
feeding trough a manger there in the living area. That's
probably what happened. It is even unlikely that there would
have been an inn in Bethlehem in the first century.
It was a small town of five hundred people. It
(30:49):
wasn't on a major crossroads or anything. And to add
to that, it would have been virtually impossible for an
innkeeper to turn away a pregnant Jewish woman in the
first century. The value of hospitality was so high. If
you did that, you would be ostracized by that, you'd
be put out of business, you'd be run out of
(31:09):
town on a rail. You could not do that in
the first century. So I think that's probably the best understanding.
And again the NIV translated as guest room, right, there's
no room in the guest room. The idea, by the way,
that they gave birth in a stable or a cave
was popularized a couple of hundred years later. In the
(31:33):
year two hundred e d. There was a book of
fiction that was written. It didn't have historical roots. It's
called the proto Evangelism of Protovangelium of James, and it
doesn't have any connection to James. It's written way after
the fact. It's not historically trustworthy. And in that account,
Mary and Joseph are approaching Bethlham. They get within three
(31:54):
miles of Beth Lamb and she starts to get birth.
So they go into a cave and she gives birth
in a cave. That's with this idea that some people
think of of a cave of being the place it's
from a book of fiction, doesn't have a historical significance.
So that's probably what took place in the first century.
You know, I hate to bop any bubbles that there
(32:16):
was no innkeeper again, but it's probably not true.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yes, you know, Lee, I appreciate again just all of
the investigative efforts here and finding the real evidence behind
what actually happened, because those things really do matter, and
people that are skeptics they want to know those answers.
In chapter five of this book, you really tackle some
of the most commonly misunderstood questions about Christmas, and I
wanted to just tackle, just like rapid fire for a moment, just.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
A couple more of those.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
One of them was was Jesus actually born on December
twenty fifth, Because I know I've heard a lot of
different people, even a lot of different theologians, wrestle with
this idea.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yes, yes, and you know, the Bible doesn't tell us
we do not know from the Bible the day of
the year that he was born. And one of the
things was early Christians didn't care about birthdays. They didn't
celebrate birthdays. What's the celebrate you got born? So why
I mean they used to make fun of the Romans
because the Romans would celebrate birthdays. What the Christians celebrated
(33:12):
was the date of someone's martyrdom. So if you were
martyred on a certain date, that date was remembered, but
birthdays weren't remembered. So about over one hundred and fifty
years after the death of Jesus and his resurrection, people
began to wonder, yeat, what day was he born? Anyway,
we don't know, why don't we commemorate that? And so Tertullian,
who was an early Tristian leader in the year two
(33:33):
hundred a d. Said, well, let me figure it out. Well,
here's the thing in early Christianity. I know this sounds
a little weird, but in early Christianity there was a
very strong connection between creation and redemption. They believed there
was a huge link between those two things, and so
they believed the Messiah would have been conceived on the
(33:53):
same day of the calendar as the day that he
ultimately died. Wow, that's just their belief. So in two
hundred eight, Deetertullian says, well, let me find let me
figure out the date that Jesus died. So he calculated
based on the calendar, the Roman calendar, of the day,
that Jesus died on March the twenty fifth. Well, if
(34:15):
he died on March twenty fifth, therefore he had been
conceived on March the twenty fifth. Well, fast forward nine
months of gestation, and that gives you a birth on
December the twenty fifth.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
And that's what scholars believe may be the reason why
December twenty fifth became recognized as the birthday of Jesus.
In fact, interestingly, I found a reference in about the
same time frame written by sexist Julius Africanus. He was
a very early Christian historian. He kept track of things
that happened, and in his Chronology of Christianity, he actually
(34:48):
listed March twenty fifth as the conception of Jesus. When
the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary
was March. How would he know that. There's no way
he could have known that except he was trusting what
Tertullian had figured out. Oh, he died on March twenty fifth,
therefore he must have been conceived on March of twenty fifth. Yes,
(35:10):
so that's currently the best thinking of scholars as a
major PhD from Yale that documented all this, and I
think it's probably probably makes sense that that's where we
got December the twenty.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Fifth, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
So whether or not we actually know the truth of this, right,
Christmas December twenty fifth is really the day of remembrance,
on the day that we celebrate the birth of Jesus,
our coming savior.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Leah.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Another fun when I got to ask you, is who
were the magi, right, these wise men that came And
also in hearing that, you know, maybe it wasn't a cave,
or it maybe wasn't just like this this manger that
was just random out there with people to come to.
It was actually in somebody's guest room. Did they actually
come and really give their respects in these gifts to
this baby Jesus?
Speaker 3 (35:54):
They probably not in that original scene, right, all right?
The mage i were quote Unqung wise men from the east,
probably Persia, and they were astrologers manage I were not
well regarded by the Hebrew people of the time. Daniel
call them enchanters. They were involved with some things that
(36:15):
God doesn't really like us to be involved in, things
like astrology and so forth. So they were not very popular.
But they came to pay homage, maybe at the direction
of a king of the newborn King of the Jews.
How did they know, Well, there was the star of Bethlehem.
(36:38):
What does that mean? The word star in the Greek
is flexible. It could mean a star, it could mean
a planet, it could mean a comet. It's some celestial
object of some sort that it's flexible enough. So what
did they see that told them that the King of
(36:59):
the Jews born, Well, we don't know exactly. It was
not Haley's comment because Haley's comment was in twelve BC.
Jesus was probably born in five or six BC. We
know that because Herod was still alive when Jesus was born.
He died in four BC. So Jesus was probably born
in five PC or maybe six PC. So what celestial
(37:22):
event took place back then? Well, there were a couple
very interesting ones. One was an unusual planetary conjunction of
Jupiter and Saturn. It took place in the constellation of Pisces.
Back then. Now we wouldn't know, we wouldn't notice that.
But these astrologers would have been amazed by that. Raymond Brown,
(37:44):
the great Christian theologian, says that they would have discerned
from where that happened in the heavens, that a ruler,
a Hebrew ruler ultimately of the world, was coming into
existence in the world, and so they began to seek him. Well,
where do you go to see the King of Jews?
You go to Jerusalem, right, So they go to Jerusalem,
(38:05):
they go to Herod and said, hey, where's the King
of Jews. Herod freaks out, what do you mean. I'm
the King. I don't want some competitor, And so he
gets his people together and says, where's this guy supposed
to be born? And they say, well, Micah five verse two,
five hundred years earlier predicted he'd be born in Bethlehem.
So Herod says to the Magi, go to Bethlehem, and
(38:28):
so they go, and they see the star again and
it leads them. Interestingly. It says to the child, doesn't
say to the baby, says to the child. So the
child have gotten a little older by then, and so
they pay homage by bringing gold, which represents the royalty
of Jesus, frankincens, which represents the priestly nature of Jesus,
(38:52):
and mrr interestingly, which was used in embalming. As we said,
Jesus was born to die as a sacrifice for the
sins of humankind, and actually on the cross, Jesus was
offered as a painkiller, a mixture of murder and water.
So they come and they worship. But here's the significance
(39:14):
theologically of this. In their first century Jewish culture, the
Jews believe that the Messiah who would come would be
a political rescuer. He would rescue them from the oppression
of the Romans and elevate the Jewish nation above other nations.
That's kind of what they thought. The fact that these pagan,
(39:35):
gentile magi came to worship the Christ Child tells us
that he was not just the redeemer of the nation
of Israel, but he's also the redeemer of the world
for everybody, even these, even these magi who were gentiles,
they had come to worship. So salvation is for everyone
(39:57):
who comes to Jesus. In repentance and faith that I
think is the big significance of the magi coming.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's amazing to hear just all these different questions that again,
you bring some clarity to. In chapter five of the
Case for Christmas. I loved reading through it, right, even
a question on Santa Claus, who the real Santa Clauz
is Xmas?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
And more.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
But I think really what I wanted to highlight here
as we kind of wrap up our conversation together, my
friend is again who this baby named Jesus really was.
In Matthew sixteen and Mark chapter eight and Luke chapter nine,
there's this account that Jesus asks his disciples, who do
you say that I am? Up to that point, a
lot of people were saying a lot of different things, right,
(40:39):
Maybe he's a prophet, maybe he's Elijah. All of these
different things are going around about this guy who's performing miracles.
Nobody quite understood who he was. And I'll never forget
lee years ago, I was sitting in church a pastor,
I think it was around Easter time. A pastor was
giving a message and he said this, He proclaimed this
beautiful depiction of who Jesus was. But then he said
it matters not who I say that he is. What
(41:01):
matters most is who you say that he is. Lee
What I would love to kind of ask you as
we near the end here is who is that baby
in a manger? And who is this person of Jesus.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Well, let's go to him and see what he says.
He got up before a group of people in John ten,
verse thirty, and he says, I and the Father are one,
and the Greek word for one there is not masculine
as a neuter, which means Jesus was not saying I
and the Father are the same person. He was saying,
I and the Father are the same thing. We're one
in nature, we're one in essence. And the audience understood
(41:37):
what he was saying. They picked up stones to kill
him because they say, they said, you, you're just a man.
You're claiming to be God. So Jesus made the claim
that he is the unique son of God, and that
is the Christ Child, that is the child we worship
on Christmas, having entered into human history. In fact, i'd
encourage your viewers and listeners to go to Philippians chapter two,
(42:01):
and that may be the first Christmas carol. It's apparently
from a hymn from the earliest days of Christianity, and
it describes how Jesus, being God and having all the
perks of heaven, he didn't cling to that because there
was a mission for him to accomplish, and so he
kind of sets aside the perks that he has as
(42:23):
the creator of the cosmos. He's kind of sets out aside,
and he comes into our world and he ends up
dying this this horrible death on the cross to pay
the penalty for our sins so that we could spend
eternity with him in heaven. And that's a beautiful reading
of maybe the first Christmas hymn, Christmas Carol. It's called
(42:45):
the Kenosis in Greek. It is the incarnation, which is
mind boggling. The infinite God becomes finite, the eternal God
becomes time bound, the creator of all comes into his creation.
I mean, this is this is you know what I like.
Somebody once said this, and I think this is so true.
(43:06):
The best stories are the ones that turn out to
be true, and this one is true, and that's what
makes their best story.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
We can make up all kinds of fanciful stories and
they're fun and intriguing and inspiring. But the best stories
are true, like this one.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
The best stories are true, Lee, I want to close
this way. It's how I wrap up every episode. I
just think about people during the Christmas season. Yes, it's
one of magic, it's one of joy, the lights, the music,
so many things that we know and love. But there's
a lot of people out there who are hurting with
a heavy heart. It's often the time where some wounds,
grief and mourning, they actually get exacerbated around these times,
(43:44):
the holidays, anniversaries and so much more. I'm thinking about
somebody who's listening today, who maybe is experiencing disappointment, discouragement, despair,
maybe even still a lack of certainty, and who this
Jesus is.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I know this.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
You spend a lot of time with Lewis Palau as
you wrote the book The Case for Heaven, But then
also as you've written Seeing the Supernatural, and you've studied
near death experiences, when you know the certainty of Jesus is,
who that baby was in the manger, the life that
he lived, the substitutionary death he died in our place,
rising again so that we might spend eternal life with
(44:18):
him give us one final pressing word, especially to that
person out there listening today with the discouraged and weary heart,
as to what the hope of heaven really means.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, if you're going through that this Christmas season and
it does tend to bring those feelings to the surface,
I would say, don't picture Christmas as being about a
baby in a manger. Think about Christmas as being that baby.
Is not just a helpless child born into this world.
This is the creator of all who loves you so
(44:49):
much that he gave up the perks of heaven to
come into our world so that you could know him personally,
and so you can receive forgiveness through him and have
the doors of Heaven flung open for you someday. Picture
him as you're the one who loves you, the one
who wants to extend grace to you. And I hope
(45:11):
that this Sunday you'll go to church, you know, find
people who will love you and who also love this Jesus.
And I think sometimes when we feel hurt and we
feel disappointed, we tend to get isolated. Don't be isolated
this Christmas. Go to a local church and meet some
(45:31):
people who will love you as they do. Love the Savior.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Lee, my friend, just thank you for not just sharing
your expertise, but your story, your heart, your passion for truth.
The case for Christmas. It's more than a book. It's
an invitation for people to move beyond nostalgia and sentimentality
and to truly investigate the most important claim in history
that God became flesh and dwelt among us. Listrobo, my friend, again,
(46:00):
you are a gift, You're a blessing. Thank you for
everything that you continually do and the impact you continually
have on my life.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Marry Christmas to you and yours. We love and appreciate you,
my friend.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Thank you as we text and say, I appreciate you,
Zach and all your listeners, and I hope everyone just says.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
A great Christmas to all of our listeners, whether you're
exploring faith, strengthening your faith, or maybe sharing your faith.
This conversation reminds us that Christianity is not built on
blind belief, but on a confident hope grounded in evidence, history,
and the life changing power of Jesus Christ. This Christmas,
may you rediscover the wonder of the Major and the
(46:35):
one who stepped into it. For you. Thank you for
joining us today. I'm doctor Zach Clinton. This is the
Built Different Podcast. Until next time, stay grateful, stay grounded,
and remember you were made to be Built different.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Merry Christmas, my friends,
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