June 26, 2025 • 34 mins
There’s a sacred tension in building something real inside systems that were never built for you.
In this episode, I explore what it means to stay in the game. Not to conform, but to quietly transform it from within. Not to opt out entirely, but to create meaningful change.
This isn’t about rejecting business, success, or structure altogether. It’s about reclaiming your voice, your strategy, and your truth without abandoning your soul to do it.
I speak about my own evolution, and why entrepreneurs often feel torn between visibility and integrity.
If you’ve ever felt like you can’t win playing by the rules, but don’t want to burn it all down, this one’s for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hey friends, I'm so excited to be here with you
again.
This has already been such anamazing experience creating this
podcast and sharing theseinsights with you.
And this is only just the secondepisode.
I don't know if I mentioned itlast time, but I'm committing to
(00:23):
showing up here weekly.
And sometimes that's going tocontinue to be by myself.
And sometimes that's going to bewith other friends or colleagues
or people that I haven't evenmet yet, because there's so many
beautiful things to share withyou.
And I want weekly for you tohave windows into new ways of
(00:44):
becoming and new versions ofyourself, because I feel like
you deserve that.
And I want to be able to giftyou with that as much as I have
the energy for.
And so, I'm just so excited tohave you here again.
I've been thinking a lot aboutplaying the game.
(01:07):
This was something that Istruggled with until very
recently.
And I think for anyone thatreally might identify as a
compassionate or empatheticperson, you find it difficult as
well.
you find it difficult tounderstand what does it look
(01:29):
like to be in the game but nothaving the game play me?
What does it look like to be inthe game and to actually maybe
change the game or change thestructure of the game or change
the rules of the game but to notlose myself within that?
Is it right to just opt out ofthe game completely or is there
(01:53):
something wrong with that?
Am I leaving other people behindif I just completely opt out?
And so in many ways, I'm talkingabout our corporate systems and
the culture of work, but thatcould be anything.
(02:13):
It could even be the algorithmson social media.
It could be your identity.
It could be almost anything youcan think of.
And so I spent the first 28years of my life playing the
game in a big way.
Really, really the first 25.
(02:34):
For sure, I played the game upuntil I started to realize who I
am and I started my transition.
But there were even a few yearsbefore where I started to really
question things a lot more.
I grew up in a very conservativehome.
Somewhat religious, notreligious.
overly bearing in any way, butmy parents, especially my mom,
(02:58):
were very straightforward, veryrigid.
They kind of looked at life oneway.
They didn't really tend to thinkabout things very differently.
They just really did what theywere told or did what they
thought they had to do.
So I grew up having...
All of this desire in me to bedifferent and to change things
and to really do meaningful workin the world, but yet competing
(03:23):
with the fact that I was toldand I was socialized to just fit
in and to just play the game.
It didn't help that I played itreally well in school.
I did really well kind ofeasily.
Early on, that made it that muchmore difficult for me to even
consider being different becauseI was sort of falling in line
(03:47):
and it wasn't difficult.
It didn't seem weird.
I wasn't having a ton ofresistance with it.
And it was hard because Iassumed I would have resistance
to playing the game if I wasmeant to not play it or to
change it or whatever.
But I really wasn't having a lotof resistance for a long time.
(04:09):
And then when it did start, Ireally didn't comprehend how to
do that.
I didn't even comprehend how tohave the courage to change my
major in school, to choose apath that was different than one
of the ones that was sort oflaid out by my parents.
(04:30):
I almost chose to start my lifeoff with accounting because I
had multiple family members thatdid that.
And it just seemed easy becausethey knew exactly how to tell me
what to do.
They knew the best decisionsthat I could make to do well in
that realm.
And so when I all of a suddenwanted to change my major, or I
(04:52):
wanted to move out of the stateI grew up in, or I wanted to...
you know, find my new identity.
That was all really hard becausethat wasn't the way that I grew
up and that wasn't what I wastaught.
I didn't have anyone around meshowing me what it was like to
(05:14):
opt out or to do thingsdifferently.
Everyone around me was reallyplaying the game almost just as
much as I was, if not more so.
And so it wasn't like I had thisuncle or I had this person to
look to and be like, what doesthis actually look like to live
differently?
What does this actually looklike to thoroughly enjoy my life
(05:38):
or to create a life that's verydifferent than what I'm aware
of, what I know is possible?
So I had these beliefs in myhead kind of Almost always
percolating.
Sometimes they would go away fora little while, but they would
always come back.
I wanted something so muchdifferent.
I wanted a life that was so muchmore meaningful, but I really
(06:00):
had no clue how to do thatbecause the way I grew up in
school and work and everythingwas beating into me.
To just fall in line, to justfollow the rules, to just show
up every day and do what you'retold, and to also be okay with
it when you show up tomorrow andmaybe you're paid a little bit
(06:21):
differently, commissions andbonuses are different, or now I
want you to focus on this thinginstead of this.
And it was just...
I wasn't supposed to be myself.
I wasn't supposed to haveagency.
I wasn't taught what thesethings actually look like.
And so as you often do, whenyou're trying to make changes
(06:48):
and you're already on oneextreme, you have this giant
pendulum swing to the otherextreme.
And so now all of a sudden I'mlike, I was following the
system.
I was playing the game as wellas anyone.
And then all of a sudden, I waslike, screw the game.
(07:11):
I don't want to have anything todo with that at all.
I'm just going to find the waysto just pretend the game doesn't
exist.
to just be whoever I want,especially as I started my
transition.
It was like, I'm nothing like somany of the people around me.
I don't fit in these structures.
(07:31):
I don't fit in this binarygender bullshit.
So why do I even care?
I'm just going to basically justopt out of the game.
I'm just going to...
I talk to clients differently atwork just to do it, just because
I can, because this is who I amand I'm authentic.
(07:52):
And so now instead of beingrigid in these weird systems, I
was all of a sudden rigid inthis version of myself.
Now I was this person who'sdifferent and unique.
And who just like rebels just todo it, not in a way that was
necessarily changing anything orhelping anyone, but just to do
(08:12):
it.
And I made that an identity.
So now, like when I send emailsat work, or when I call clients,
or the way I interact withpeople, whether or not I choose
to go to the bar, the food thatI eat, everything is just like,
this is what I want to do.
I don't care what you want.
I don't really care what youthink the world is or what you
think it should be like, this iswhat I want.
(08:34):
So I'm just going to do this.
So I was over here, and now I'mover here.
There's no balance whatsoever.
I'm at the complete otherextreme.
I'm saying the systems suck.
I don't want to have anything todo with them.
I was having some slight guiltfor the amount of privilege I
have and the fact that I wasstarting to change.
(08:55):
And I felt like I had a voice,but I was like, I don't really
know how I want to use that.
And I'm simultaneously watchingall of these things happen in
the world last year.
I'm, you know, watching this,you know, presidency unfold.
I'm seeing all of these thingshappening and I'm like, not
(09:16):
speaking about any of it.
I'm not saying anything.
I'm not speaking up politicallyor socially.
I'm not really doing much withbusiness.
I'm just kind of over herewanting to just be this weird,
like little guru or something.
I'm, I don't really want to justgo to the mountaintop and be a
monk, but in a sense, I kind ofdo.
I'm like, can I just leave allof this shit, and can I just go
(09:38):
over here and do this instead,and can I just act like all of
this isn't happening?
Not because I don't care, butbecause I'm just trying to find
myself, and I'm so over all ofthe ways that I've been held
down, and I haven't been seen,and I haven't been heard, and
I'm just over it, and I don'twant to have anything to do with
any of this anymore.
(09:58):
Not in a way of like, I want itto end my life, but just like,
how much can I opt out?
So that's so much of what I did,especially last year.
And even kind of earlier thisyear, like I was on social
media, not all thatconsistently, consistently on
LinkedIn to an extent more thanmost, but I was on there just
doing whatever I wanted to do.
(10:20):
And it was never working.
I wasn't like getting morefollowers.
I wasn't really connecting withpeople more meaningfully.
I mean, a little bit here andthere, but nothing was really
working.
I was essentially closing myselfoff because I was saying, I
don't really care about any ofthe rules or anything.
I'm just going to pretend itdoesn't exist and I'm just going
(10:41):
to go over here and do me.
So everyone didn't really knowwhat to do with that.
The universe didn't even knowwhat to do with that.
How was I supposed to call inany sort of abundance or like
real connections or anythingelse when I'm in this weird
place where I'm kind of justlike, fuck it all.
Like who even cares?
(11:01):
And then I realized veryrecently that I feel like I was
in the systems for such a longtime for a reason.
Maybe it doesn't mean anythingat all.
And maybe that's just themeaning that I'm putting on it
in the story that I'm choosingto tell.
(11:23):
But if so, then that's the storythat I'm choosing.
And the story that I'm choosingis I had to be a part of these
things to understand them and tounderstand what it really looks
like for change to happen.
And so I all of a sudden stoppedlooking at this as I have to opt
(11:44):
out and I have to not care aboutany of it.
I don't have to prop it up.
I don't have to be okay with thestatus quo, but I have to figure
out how to play the game untilthe game changes because I can't
help do anything If I don't playit to some extent and by play it
(12:05):
to some extent, I don't meanlike, okay, I'm not going to be
the worst person ever, but I'mgoing to go over here and I'm
going to do X, Y, and Z.
And these things are a lot lessharmful to other people.
So that's fine.
I'm not talking about being lessharmful.
I'm talking about genuinelydoing things like looking at
social media and saying, okay,pretending the algorithm doesn't
(12:28):
exist and just trying to do myown thing isn't working.
So how can I use the algorithmbut make it meaningful?
So for example, on LinkedIn, Istarted trying to do shorter
posts and shorter insights butstill do like really meaningful
things that hit.
(12:49):
Not just like bro-y businessthings or like fun quotes just
to say them.
But how do I condense and putmore clarity around my message
instead of just saying, screwthe algorithm.
I don't feel like trying tolearn this.
I don't feel like trying to copewith it.
(13:10):
I don't want to do any of that.
And I've already started to seeit get a little bit better
because I'm playing the game insuch a way that I can alter it.
I may give someone elsepermission to post a little bit
differently or to share more oftheir story.
I'm not just falling in linewith what everybody else is
(13:32):
doing, but I'm also not doingthings that the algorithm hates
to where it's not going to pushout my message.
Because I just kept tellingmyself, oh, my message will just
get pushed out anyway.
If it's just meant to be, it'smeant to be.
And that was BS.
That's not how that works.
That was me in some waysavoiding being more miserable,
(13:56):
sorry, more visible and tryingto do meaningful things because
if I was playing small, I couldjust blame the algorithm and
pretend that wasn't happening.
This happened for me withrelationships as well.
I sort of learned this inintimate relationships and it
(14:17):
kind of just, became myunderstanding for the rest of
the interactions andrelationships that I have.
I used to be really hard on thepeople that were in my life,
especially in romanticrelationships.
And the sad part is it almostnever came across as the fact
(14:38):
that I cared.
Like that still pains me to thisday because what they felt was
not only shitty, but they feltthat I didn't actually care
about them.
And I really did.
But the problem is, is my intentdoesn't matter because I hurt
them really bad.
And I have to have compassionfor myself with that because I
(15:01):
grew up being taught tough love.
And so that's what I thought itwas.
That's just what I thought youdid for people that you cared
about.
And so I did that for a longtime.
And then all of a sudden it waslike, well, that didn't work.
And this is annoying.
So maybe I just won't giveadvice.
(15:22):
Maybe I just won't tell peopleexactly how I feel.
Maybe I'll share a little bitless.
I'll just kind of opt out ofthis.
And I'll just be there.
If somebody wants me to listen,great.
But I'm not sharing advice.
I'm not telling them anythingabout what I think they should
do.
I'm not necessarily even sharingwith what I would do if it were
me.
None of that.
I'm just going to leave it allalone.
(15:44):
Because clearly, I'm justincapable of...
being compassionate andempathetic with people.
And I'm just going to be toohard on them, especially in an
intimate relationship where Ican see it, especially when
they're sad or miserable orwhatever.
And I, and I love them and I sobadly want more for them, but,
(16:04):
but I'm just going to opt out.
And so again, massive pendulumswing, just pretending like
that's not my role.
I don't have to do that.
I'm not here to give any advice.
I'm not even really here toshare a whole lot of my wisdom.
I'm just going to leave thatalone.
(16:26):
And then last summer, I startedto realize something.
And I don't remember where Ifirst heard this, where I first
learned it, but I started torealize there's a little bit
more to it than when we say,listening to someone and just
like being there for them wholehas power that like sometimes
(16:49):
like in the intimaterelationship that's all we need
to do we just need to sit thereand listen we don't necessarily
need to give advice that used tofrustrate me because i was like
that doesn't really make sense idon't i don't feel like i'm
doing anything and then istarted to learn more about what
it really meant to just kind ofshow up with presence and what
(17:09):
it meant to just be And to notnecessarily try to do something
or direct someone in a certainway or tell them they have to
believe a certain thing, butjust to kind of show up.
And then it started to click forme because if I were to show up
(17:34):
like this at the grocery store,at least depending on which
state I'm in, That might affectsomeone in a big way.
It might give someone permissionto be more themselves.
It might cause someone to thinkmore about how they see someone
(17:59):
like me.
Who knows?
But me just showing up mightaffect the way that someone else
feels about the world or seesthe world.
And that became something that Ilove so much about who I am to
the point where I'm actually notsure that I want some of the
(18:19):
changes I originally wanted.
I originally wanted to change myvoice and I also wanted my face
to change.
I don't know if I want thatanymore because there's
something so cool and fun andbeautiful about about being able
to show up and everyone has thispower, but this is just the
example that I'm using becauseit's, I guess in a sense, a
(18:43):
little bit easier for me to seehow capable I am of doing that.
It doesn't mean I have morepower than you do just because
of how I look and how like themix of identities and things,
but I just find it so cool thatI can show up in a space and I
might be really change somethingfor someone just by being
(19:06):
myself, especially when I showup in a space with joy or
confidence or courage orwhatever.
That might really do somethingfor someone.
And I'm not just talking aboutsomeone else that's like me.
I'm not even suggesting justsomeone else that's maybe queer
or doesn't know it.
(19:27):
I'm talking about the differencethat it can make for anyone.
I'm talking about how that couldtouch anyone's life.
And so now all of a sudden I'mrealizing I do want to play the
game.
I just want to play itdifferently.
I don't want to stop showing up,but I want to find a way to show
(19:48):
up more fully and show up withso much power that it changes
things.
And that's exactly what I'mdoing here with this podcast.
I'm not trying to give you aspecific message.
Sure, like a couple minutesbefore I hit record, I decide
what the theme is.
But when I say a couple minutes,I mean a couple minutes.
(20:09):
This is actually my secondrecording.
I already had like a 15-minuterecording or something like
that.
And I felt like I wasperforming.
It didn't feel like I was justletting the words come through.
It didn't feel like I was trulyenjoying it.
So I just stopped it andscrapped it because that wasn't
what this is supposed to be.
This is absolutely meant to beme sharing very genuine and
(20:30):
authentic things with you asthey're coming through, not as I
decided I should say them or asI tried to perform or I tried to
perfect it.
That's not, that's not what thispodcast is.
And it's not what I'm ever goingto allow it to be because that's
not who I am.
And I don't mean that in a wayof like, I'm never willing to
change.
I mean that in a way that's verygenuine.
(20:53):
Like I am always going to befinding ways to do things
differently, to share thingsdifferently, to show up a little
bit differently.
And so I, I'm not saying there'snecessarily one right way to
think about this, but this isnow how I feel about playing the
game.
This is how I feel about how Ishow up politically, socially,
(21:17):
in business, you name it.
This is essentially my activism.
This is one of my biggest giftsand my biggest ways of changing
the world is how do I show up ina way that is going to affect
someone else, regardless ofwhether or not I say words at
(21:38):
all.
Whether that's in person,whether that's on social media,
whether that's on this podcast,like that's what it's like for
me now.
And so I wanted to share thisbecause it took me so long to
understand that power.
(21:59):
And it's still hard.
Sometimes I want to do more andI want to say so much more, but
I have to stop myself and I haveto remind myself that my
responsibility isn't to be theloudest voice in the room.
My responsibility is to be oneof the strongest presences, one
of the strongest frequencies inthe room, so much that it
(22:20):
affects people without me doingor saying anything specifically.
And I share this with you for somany reasons.
I share this with you because Iknow people who care about
change in the world andactivism, other queer people are
going to listen to this andthey're going to be wondering,
(22:44):
How do I really make adifference?
I know there's people out therefeeling guilty about it,
especially politically andactivism-wise.
I know there's people feelingguilty about it because I've
been there.
But I no longer feel guiltyabout it because I can see how
what I'm doing is rippling out.
And it's even doing it in waysthat I can't completely imagine.
(23:07):
And that doesn't mean I shouldnever show up to the protests.
That doesn't mean I don't needto rewrite the book on doing
business differently, thatdoesn't mean I don't actually do
something within the game aswell.
It just means that...
the way that I'm showing up ispowerful enough that it can in
(23:28):
many ways speak for itself.
And I don't necessarily have totry above and beyond that.
I can kind of allow differentideas and ways of this to come
to me.
I don't have to always activelygo out and think, what's the
next thing that I can do to makean impact on the world?
It's how can I show up fully andhow do I become the version of
(23:51):
myself that is even morepowerful than I am right now,
that can have even more of animpact on the world than I'm
having right now.
And so regardless of what that'slike for you, whether you just
want to be a leader in your ownlife or whether or not you have
your own business and you'retrying to figure out like, how
do I become the version ofmyself that has the courage to
(24:13):
do something differently?
How do I become the version ofmyself that has the courage to
build the business or even likeblow everything up and rebuild
the business?
That's really what I want tobuild the life that makes a
difference for other peoplearound me.
The life that actually likechanges the world for the
better.
And what that looks like is soinsanely counterintuitive.
(24:36):
What that looks like isliterally doing less and less.
And it's learning to be more,learning to just listen,
learning to just show up.
Because think about it likethis.
How many people do you know thathave shown up fully maybe ever?
(24:58):
you probably know at least a fewpeople who have never shown up
fully or who you at least canreasonably perceive to have
never shown up fully a day intheir life.
So when that's the normal way ofliving, not showing up fully,
(25:19):
being a victim, life is done tome, Everything happens to me.
Life doesn't happen for me.
I'm not capable.
I can't do these things.
I can't have what I want.
When that's the way that so manypeople are living, can't you see
how you showing up fully, nomatter what that is, is already
(25:45):
shifting the game, is alreadyshifting the world?
without you even saying or doinganything else, because your
presence alone is disruptive.
Because people are going tonotice when you show up
authentically and vulnerably andcompassionately and
(26:06):
empathetically, they can't notnotice it.
They might pretend not to, butthey can't not notice it if it's
powerful enough.
If you're really that present,people know.
People will know.
And so that's how this hasevolved for me.
(26:29):
It's honestly evolved in areally beautiful way where I'm
no longer thinking about how amI going to just like opt out of
the game?
Like I'm actually working on myown chat GPT right now.
Not like, AI program.
But if you don't know, you canactually create your own like
version of chat GPT where itdoes specific things or prompts
(26:52):
the user in certain ways.
I'm creating something whereit's encouraging people to use
it as a co-creation tool to nolonger like for social media and
business messaging and all ofthese things to no longer just
like Hey, tell me what to posttoday.
Or, hey, here's this idea Ihave, do it for me.
(27:14):
You can still use it for that ifyou want to, but the whole
purpose is for it to get to knowyou a little bit, for it to
understand your business alittle bit, for it to understand
your voice, maybe some of yourpast posts or other things
you've written.
And for you to be able to thensay, hey, here's what I wrote
that I think I want to post fortomorrow.
(27:35):
It feels a little bit off.
Can you just help me adjust it alittle bit so it's a little bit
more clear or a little bit morepowerful or whatever?
And then when it does that, I'malso telling it to help you
reflect on that because it's notjust meant to be.
Hey, do it for me.
(27:55):
It also might make you a betterwriter or it might help you hone
your voice or your message alittle bit more because it might
ask you, you know, okay, here'swhat I'm thinking.
How does this feel?
You might have an aha moment inworking with that.
And so this is what I'm talkingabout.
It would be so easy to just optout of something like AI
(28:17):
completely and say like, Hey,Here's the level of
consciousness that I have.
Here's the spiritual beliefsthat I have.
And this is going to potentiallygo wrong in so many ways.
Let me just not use it.
But especially if how it worksis based off of what we're
(28:40):
feeding it.
then why wouldn't I jump in thegame?
Why wouldn't I try to feed itbetter things?
Why wouldn't I try to feed itmore conscious things?
Why wouldn't I teach it to speakto us a little bit differently,
to help us reflect, to help usbecome better, to help us
clarify our voice?
That's certainly not going tohave a net impact.
(29:03):
bad benefit, like a net negativebenefit for us.
I don't know how much good itwill cause.
Maybe it'll just bringeverything back to zero in a
sense.
Maybe it'll just cancel out someof the bad, but it's certainly
not going to cause things to gomore wrong in the AI space.
(29:23):
It's not going to create moreabuse of it.
It's going to potentially changethe way that at least a few
people are using it, potentiallyfor the better, potentially to
do something meaningful in theworld.
So again, I'm never here to tellyou there's one right answer.
(29:46):
I'm not even really here to tellyou that you absolutely have to
play the game.
Maybe you have a different wayof viewing this than I do, and
your perspective is valid.
And it's either valid for thepart of your journey that you're
on, or potentially there'swisdom in your perspective
that's wisdom that I don't have.
And maybe there's stillsomething I'm not seeing, but I
(30:08):
feel very aligned in the waythat I've chosen to play the
game and the ways that I'vestarted to see how I can use the
systems to try to do some good.
And that's not me saying theydon't still need to be
dismantled or whatever, but itis me saying that I'm not going
to opt out while waiting forcertain things to happen or
certain things to change just tobe able to do things vastly
(30:31):
differently.
I'm going to figure out how dowe get from point A to B.
If this is the systems that wewant right now, and this is the
systems that we wish we had,then somebody needs to help get
it to what we wish we had first.
Opting out of it, in my opinion,isn't going to do that.
(30:51):
And I don't really feel like Idid my, I feel like I did a
disservice both to myself and toyou when I was opting out.
I don't think that was doinganything for anyone.
Sure, maybe there were smallmoments where it was good.
Maybe I needed to opt out for mymental health or I needed to put
things down for a second.
But that's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm talking about how you'remaking a difference right where
(31:12):
you're at, even when it's hard,because maybe the system is set
up to try to not allow you tomake a difference or the system
is set up to try to get you tofail.
So if I were to leave you withthis, if I were to leave you
with anything, ask yourself overthe next week or even over the
(31:33):
next month, but we're going tohave new insights next week.
Ask yourself over the next week,how could I play the game a
little bit differently?
How could I show up more fully?
How could I look at somethingdifferently, like AI, to where
maybe I could change that forthe better?
(31:55):
Just consider that.
Just think about it and see whatcomes up for you.
Don't beat yourself up if youdon't come up with an answer.
Just throw it out there.
journal on it, meditate on it,think about it in the shower,
and just see what comes up foryou.
Because I bet there's one smallway that you can make a
(32:19):
difference.
I bet there's something like theway I'm seeing AI.
I know for a fact most peopleare not seeing that.
I'm literally creating my ownGPT because when I talk to other
people about it, they were like,I didn't know you could get it
to do that.
Can you please share that withus?
I didn't do it because I'm likesome kind of AI like junkie or
(32:43):
like tech, like insanely techsavvy person.
And I was just like, oh my God,how do I, you know, add one more
offer to my business?
And, you know, how do I get intothe AI, you know, how do I jump
on the AI train?
It literally came organicallybecause when I talked about the
way that I was viewing this,other people weren't viewing it
(33:06):
the same way and I saw how Icould help them.
You might find the same thing ifyou just sit with it, or even if
you just talk to other peopleabout it, normalize sharing your
experience.
You would be surprised how manytimes you learn something cool
about the way that someone elseviews the world, or you would be
(33:30):
surprised how many times youfind out that you're not alone.
Because so many of us have allof these weird thoughts, and
we're keeping them to ourselves,and we're not sharing them with
anybody else, but everybody elseis having the weird thoughts
too.
So how are you going to play thegame?
How are you going to share someweird thoughts?
(33:52):
And I'll leave you with that.
And again, I appreciate you somuch if you stayed here until
the end.
I love every minute of this.
And I trust that you got exactlywhat you needed today.
I'll look forward to connectingwith you again next week.
Hey friends, I'm so excited to be here with you
again.
This has already been such anamazing experience creating this
podcast and sharing theseinsights with you.
And this is only just the secondepisode.
I don't know if I mentioned itlast time, but I'm committing to
(00:23):
showing up here weekly.
And sometimes that's going tocontinue to be by myself.
And sometimes that's going to bewith other friends or colleagues
or people that I haven't evenmet yet, because there's so many
beautiful things to share withyou.
And I want weekly for you tohave windows into new ways of
(00:44):
becoming and new versions ofyourself, because I feel like
you deserve that.
And I want to be able to giftyou with that as much as I have
the energy for.
And so, I'm just so excited tohave you here again.
I've been thinking a lot aboutplaying the game.
(01:07):
This was something that Istruggled with until very
recently.
And I think for anyone thatreally might identify as a
compassionate or empatheticperson, you find it difficult as
well.
you find it difficult tounderstand what does it look
(01:29):
like to be in the game but nothaving the game play me?
What does it look like to be inthe game and to actually maybe
change the game or change thestructure of the game or change
the rules of the game but to notlose myself within that?
Is it right to just opt out ofthe game completely or is there
(01:53):
something wrong with that?
Am I leaving other people behindif I just completely opt out?
And so in many ways, I'm talkingabout our corporate systems and
the culture of work, but thatcould be anything.
(02:13):
It could even be the algorithmson social media.
It could be your identity.
It could be almost anything youcan think of.
And so I spent the first 28years of my life playing the
game in a big way.
Really, really the first 25.
(02:34):
For sure, I played the game upuntil I started to realize who I
am and I started my transition.
But there were even a few yearsbefore where I started to really
question things a lot more.
I grew up in a very conservativehome.
Somewhat religious, notreligious.
overly bearing in any way, butmy parents, especially my mom,
(02:58):
were very straightforward, veryrigid.
They kind of looked at life oneway.
They didn't really tend to thinkabout things very differently.
They just really did what theywere told or did what they
thought they had to do.
So I grew up having...
All of this desire in me to bedifferent and to change things
and to really do meaningful workin the world, but yet competing
(03:23):
with the fact that I was toldand I was socialized to just fit
in and to just play the game.
It didn't help that I played itreally well in school.
I did really well kind ofeasily.
Early on, that made it that muchmore difficult for me to even
consider being different becauseI was sort of falling in line
(03:47):
and it wasn't difficult.
It didn't seem weird.
I wasn't having a ton ofresistance with it.
And it was hard because Iassumed I would have resistance
to playing the game if I wasmeant to not play it or to
change it or whatever.
But I really wasn't having a lotof resistance for a long time.
(04:09):
And then when it did start, Ireally didn't comprehend how to
do that.
I didn't even comprehend how tohave the courage to change my
major in school, to choose apath that was different than one
of the ones that was sort oflaid out by my parents.
(04:30):
I almost chose to start my lifeoff with accounting because I
had multiple family members thatdid that.
And it just seemed easy becausethey knew exactly how to tell me
what to do.
They knew the best decisionsthat I could make to do well in
that realm.
And so when I all of a suddenwanted to change my major, or I
(04:52):
wanted to move out of the stateI grew up in, or I wanted to...
you know, find my new identity.
That was all really hard becausethat wasn't the way that I grew
up and that wasn't what I wastaught.
I didn't have anyone around meshowing me what it was like to
(05:14):
opt out or to do thingsdifferently.
Everyone around me was reallyplaying the game almost just as
much as I was, if not more so.
And so it wasn't like I had thisuncle or I had this person to
look to and be like, what doesthis actually look like to live
differently?
What does this actually looklike to thoroughly enjoy my life
(05:38):
or to create a life that's verydifferent than what I'm aware
of, what I know is possible?
So I had these beliefs in myhead kind of Almost always
percolating.
Sometimes they would go away fora little while, but they would
always come back.
I wanted something so muchdifferent.
I wanted a life that was so muchmore meaningful, but I really
(06:00):
had no clue how to do thatbecause the way I grew up in
school and work and everythingwas beating into me.
To just fall in line, to justfollow the rules, to just show
up every day and do what you'retold, and to also be okay with
it when you show up tomorrow andmaybe you're paid a little bit
(06:21):
differently, commissions andbonuses are different, or now I
want you to focus on this thinginstead of this.
And it was just...
I wasn't supposed to be myself.
I wasn't supposed to haveagency.
I wasn't taught what thesethings actually look like.
And so as you often do, whenyou're trying to make changes
(06:48):
and you're already on oneextreme, you have this giant
pendulum swing to the otherextreme.
And so now all of a sudden I'mlike, I was following the
system.
I was playing the game as wellas anyone.
And then all of a sudden, I waslike, screw the game.
(07:11):
I don't want to have anything todo with that at all.
I'm just going to find the waysto just pretend the game doesn't
exist.
to just be whoever I want,especially as I started my
transition.
It was like, I'm nothing like somany of the people around me.
I don't fit in these structures.
(07:31):
I don't fit in this binarygender bullshit.
So why do I even care?
I'm just going to basically justopt out of the game.
I'm just going to...
I talk to clients differently atwork just to do it, just because
I can, because this is who I amand I'm authentic.
(07:52):
And so now instead of beingrigid in these weird systems, I
was all of a sudden rigid inthis version of myself.
Now I was this person who'sdifferent and unique.
And who just like rebels just todo it, not in a way that was
necessarily changing anything orhelping anyone, but just to do
(08:12):
it.
And I made that an identity.
So now, like when I send emailsat work, or when I call clients,
or the way I interact withpeople, whether or not I choose
to go to the bar, the food thatI eat, everything is just like,
this is what I want to do.
I don't care what you want.
I don't really care what youthink the world is or what you
think it should be like, this iswhat I want.
(08:34):
So I'm just going to do this.
So I was over here, and now I'mover here.
There's no balance whatsoever.
I'm at the complete otherextreme.
I'm saying the systems suck.
I don't want to have anything todo with them.
I was having some slight guiltfor the amount of privilege I
have and the fact that I wasstarting to change.
(08:55):
And I felt like I had a voice,but I was like, I don't really
know how I want to use that.
And I'm simultaneously watchingall of these things happen in
the world last year.
I'm, you know, watching this,you know, presidency unfold.
I'm seeing all of these thingshappening and I'm like, not
(09:16):
speaking about any of it.
I'm not saying anything.
I'm not speaking up politicallyor socially.
I'm not really doing much withbusiness.
I'm just kind of over herewanting to just be this weird,
like little guru or something.
I'm, I don't really want to justgo to the mountaintop and be a
monk, but in a sense, I kind ofdo.
I'm like, can I just leave allof this shit, and can I just go
(09:38):
over here and do this instead,and can I just act like all of
this isn't happening?
Not because I don't care, butbecause I'm just trying to find
myself, and I'm so over all ofthe ways that I've been held
down, and I haven't been seen,and I haven't been heard, and
I'm just over it, and I don'twant to have anything to do with
any of this anymore.
(09:58):
Not in a way of like, I want itto end my life, but just like,
how much can I opt out?
So that's so much of what I did,especially last year.
And even kind of earlier thisyear, like I was on social
media, not all thatconsistently, consistently on
LinkedIn to an extent more thanmost, but I was on there just
doing whatever I wanted to do.
(10:20):
And it was never working.
I wasn't like getting morefollowers.
I wasn't really connecting withpeople more meaningfully.
I mean, a little bit here andthere, but nothing was really
working.
I was essentially closing myselfoff because I was saying, I
don't really care about any ofthe rules or anything.
I'm just going to pretend itdoesn't exist and I'm just going
(10:41):
to go over here and do me.
So everyone didn't really knowwhat to do with that.
The universe didn't even knowwhat to do with that.
How was I supposed to call inany sort of abundance or like
real connections or anythingelse when I'm in this weird
place where I'm kind of justlike, fuck it all.
Like who even cares?
(11:01):
And then I realized veryrecently that I feel like I was
in the systems for such a longtime for a reason.
Maybe it doesn't mean anythingat all.
And maybe that's just themeaning that I'm putting on it
in the story that I'm choosingto tell.
(11:23):
But if so, then that's the storythat I'm choosing.
And the story that I'm choosingis I had to be a part of these
things to understand them and tounderstand what it really looks
like for change to happen.
And so I all of a sudden stoppedlooking at this as I have to opt
(11:44):
out and I have to not care aboutany of it.
I don't have to prop it up.
I don't have to be okay with thestatus quo, but I have to figure
out how to play the game untilthe game changes because I can't
help do anything If I don't playit to some extent and by play it
(12:05):
to some extent, I don't meanlike, okay, I'm not going to be
the worst person ever, but I'mgoing to go over here and I'm
going to do X, Y, and Z.
And these things are a lot lessharmful to other people.
So that's fine.
I'm not talking about being lessharmful.
I'm talking about genuinelydoing things like looking at
social media and saying, okay,pretending the algorithm doesn't
(12:28):
exist and just trying to do myown thing isn't working.
So how can I use the algorithmbut make it meaningful?
So for example, on LinkedIn, Istarted trying to do shorter
posts and shorter insights butstill do like really meaningful
things that hit.
(12:49):
Not just like bro-y businessthings or like fun quotes just
to say them.
But how do I condense and putmore clarity around my message
instead of just saying, screwthe algorithm.
I don't feel like trying tolearn this.
I don't feel like trying to copewith it.
(13:10):
I don't want to do any of that.
And I've already started to seeit get a little bit better
because I'm playing the game insuch a way that I can alter it.
I may give someone elsepermission to post a little bit
differently or to share more oftheir story.
I'm not just falling in linewith what everybody else is
(13:32):
doing, but I'm also not doingthings that the algorithm hates
to where it's not going to pushout my message.
Because I just kept tellingmyself, oh, my message will just
get pushed out anyway.
If it's just meant to be, it'smeant to be.
And that was BS.
That's not how that works.
That was me in some waysavoiding being more miserable,
(13:56):
sorry, more visible and tryingto do meaningful things because
if I was playing small, I couldjust blame the algorithm and
pretend that wasn't happening.
This happened for me withrelationships as well.
I sort of learned this inintimate relationships and it
(14:17):
kind of just, became myunderstanding for the rest of
the interactions andrelationships that I have.
I used to be really hard on thepeople that were in my life,
especially in romanticrelationships.
And the sad part is it almostnever came across as the fact
(14:38):
that I cared.
Like that still pains me to thisday because what they felt was
not only shitty, but they feltthat I didn't actually care
about them.
And I really did.
But the problem is, is my intentdoesn't matter because I hurt
them really bad.
And I have to have compassionfor myself with that because I
(15:01):
grew up being taught tough love.
And so that's what I thought itwas.
That's just what I thought youdid for people that you cared
about.
And so I did that for a longtime.
And then all of a sudden it waslike, well, that didn't work.
And this is annoying.
So maybe I just won't giveadvice.
(15:22):
Maybe I just won't tell peopleexactly how I feel.
Maybe I'll share a little bitless.
I'll just kind of opt out ofthis.
And I'll just be there.
If somebody wants me to listen,great.
But I'm not sharing advice.
I'm not telling them anythingabout what I think they should
do.
I'm not necessarily even sharingwith what I would do if it were
me.
None of that.
I'm just going to leave it allalone.
(15:44):
Because clearly, I'm justincapable of...
being compassionate andempathetic with people.
And I'm just going to be toohard on them, especially in an
intimate relationship where Ican see it, especially when
they're sad or miserable orwhatever.
And I, and I love them and I sobadly want more for them, but,
(16:04):
but I'm just going to opt out.
And so again, massive pendulumswing, just pretending like
that's not my role.
I don't have to do that.
I'm not here to give any advice.
I'm not even really here toshare a whole lot of my wisdom.
I'm just going to leave thatalone.
(16:26):
And then last summer, I startedto realize something.
And I don't remember where Ifirst heard this, where I first
learned it, but I started torealize there's a little bit
more to it than when we say,listening to someone and just
like being there for them wholehas power that like sometimes
(16:49):
like in the intimaterelationship that's all we need
to do we just need to sit thereand listen we don't necessarily
need to give advice that used tofrustrate me because i was like
that doesn't really make sense idon't i don't feel like i'm
doing anything and then istarted to learn more about what
it really meant to just kind ofshow up with presence and what
(17:09):
it meant to just be And to notnecessarily try to do something
or direct someone in a certainway or tell them they have to
believe a certain thing, butjust to kind of show up.
And then it started to click forme because if I were to show up
(17:34):
like this at the grocery store,at least depending on which
state I'm in, That might affectsomeone in a big way.
It might give someone permissionto be more themselves.
It might cause someone to thinkmore about how they see someone
(17:59):
like me.
Who knows?
But me just showing up mightaffect the way that someone else
feels about the world or seesthe world.
And that became something that Ilove so much about who I am to
the point where I'm actually notsure that I want some of the
(18:19):
changes I originally wanted.
I originally wanted to change myvoice and I also wanted my face
to change.
I don't know if I want thatanymore because there's
something so cool and fun andbeautiful about about being able
to show up and everyone has thispower, but this is just the
example that I'm using becauseit's, I guess in a sense, a
(18:43):
little bit easier for me to seehow capable I am of doing that.
It doesn't mean I have morepower than you do just because
of how I look and how like themix of identities and things,
but I just find it so cool thatI can show up in a space and I
might be really change somethingfor someone just by being
(19:06):
myself, especially when I showup in a space with joy or
confidence or courage orwhatever.
That might really do somethingfor someone.
And I'm not just talking aboutsomeone else that's like me.
I'm not even suggesting justsomeone else that's maybe queer
or doesn't know it.
(19:27):
I'm talking about the differencethat it can make for anyone.
I'm talking about how that couldtouch anyone's life.
And so now all of a sudden I'mrealizing I do want to play the
game.
I just want to play itdifferently.
I don't want to stop showing up,but I want to find a way to show
(19:48):
up more fully and show up withso much power that it changes
things.
And that's exactly what I'mdoing here with this podcast.
I'm not trying to give you aspecific message.
Sure, like a couple minutesbefore I hit record, I decide
what the theme is.
But when I say a couple minutes,I mean a couple minutes.
(20:09):
This is actually my secondrecording.
I already had like a 15-minuterecording or something like
that.
And I felt like I wasperforming.
It didn't feel like I was justletting the words come through.
It didn't feel like I was trulyenjoying it.
So I just stopped it andscrapped it because that wasn't
what this is supposed to be.
This is absolutely meant to beme sharing very genuine and
(20:30):
authentic things with you asthey're coming through, not as I
decided I should say them or asI tried to perform or I tried to
perfect it.
That's not, that's not what thispodcast is.
And it's not what I'm ever goingto allow it to be because that's
not who I am.
And I don't mean that in a wayof like, I'm never willing to
change.
I mean that in a way that's verygenuine.
(20:53):
Like I am always going to befinding ways to do things
differently, to share thingsdifferently, to show up a little
bit differently.
And so I, I'm not saying there'snecessarily one right way to
think about this, but this isnow how I feel about playing the
game.
This is how I feel about how Ishow up politically, socially,
(21:17):
in business, you name it.
This is essentially my activism.
This is one of my biggest giftsand my biggest ways of changing
the world is how do I show up ina way that is going to affect
someone else, regardless ofwhether or not I say words at
(21:38):
all.
Whether that's in person,whether that's on social media,
whether that's on this podcast,like that's what it's like for
me now.
And so I wanted to share thisbecause it took me so long to
understand that power.
(21:59):
And it's still hard.
Sometimes I want to do more andI want to say so much more, but
I have to stop myself and I haveto remind myself that my
responsibility isn't to be theloudest voice in the room.
My responsibility is to be oneof the strongest presences, one
of the strongest frequencies inthe room, so much that it
(22:20):
affects people without me doingor saying anything specifically.
And I share this with you for somany reasons.
I share this with you because Iknow people who care about
change in the world andactivism, other queer people are
going to listen to this andthey're going to be wondering,
(22:44):
How do I really make adifference?
I know there's people out therefeeling guilty about it,
especially politically andactivism-wise.
I know there's people feelingguilty about it because I've
been there.
But I no longer feel guiltyabout it because I can see how
what I'm doing is rippling out.
And it's even doing it in waysthat I can't completely imagine.
(23:07):
And that doesn't mean I shouldnever show up to the protests.
That doesn't mean I don't needto rewrite the book on doing
business differently, thatdoesn't mean I don't actually do
something within the game aswell.
It just means that...
the way that I'm showing up ispowerful enough that it can in
(23:28):
many ways speak for itself.
And I don't necessarily have totry above and beyond that.
I can kind of allow differentideas and ways of this to come
to me.
I don't have to always activelygo out and think, what's the
next thing that I can do to makean impact on the world?
It's how can I show up fully andhow do I become the version of
(23:51):
myself that is even morepowerful than I am right now,
that can have even more of animpact on the world than I'm
having right now.
And so regardless of what that'slike for you, whether you just
want to be a leader in your ownlife or whether or not you have
your own business and you'retrying to figure out like, how
do I become the version ofmyself that has the courage to
(24:13):
do something differently?
How do I become the version ofmyself that has the courage to
build the business or even likeblow everything up and rebuild
the business?
That's really what I want tobuild the life that makes a
difference for other peoplearound me.
The life that actually likechanges the world for the
better.
And what that looks like is soinsanely counterintuitive.
(24:36):
What that looks like isliterally doing less and less.
And it's learning to be more,learning to just listen,
learning to just show up.
Because think about it likethis.
How many people do you know thathave shown up fully maybe ever?
(24:58):
you probably know at least a fewpeople who have never shown up
fully or who you at least canreasonably perceive to have
never shown up fully a day intheir life.
So when that's the normal way ofliving, not showing up fully,
(25:19):
being a victim, life is done tome, Everything happens to me.
Life doesn't happen for me.
I'm not capable.
I can't do these things.
I can't have what I want.
When that's the way that so manypeople are living, can't you see
how you showing up fully, nomatter what that is, is already
(25:45):
shifting the game, is alreadyshifting the world?
without you even saying or doinganything else, because your
presence alone is disruptive.
Because people are going tonotice when you show up
authentically and vulnerably andcompassionately and
(26:06):
empathetically, they can't notnotice it.
They might pretend not to, butthey can't not notice it if it's
powerful enough.
If you're really that present,people know.
People will know.
And so that's how this hasevolved for me.
(26:29):
It's honestly evolved in areally beautiful way where I'm
no longer thinking about how amI going to just like opt out of
the game?
Like I'm actually working on myown chat GPT right now.
Not like, AI program.
But if you don't know, you canactually create your own like
version of chat GPT where itdoes specific things or prompts
(26:52):
the user in certain ways.
I'm creating something whereit's encouraging people to use
it as a co-creation tool to nolonger like for social media and
business messaging and all ofthese things to no longer just
like Hey, tell me what to posttoday.
Or, hey, here's this idea Ihave, do it for me.
(27:14):
You can still use it for that ifyou want to, but the whole
purpose is for it to get to knowyou a little bit, for it to
understand your business alittle bit, for it to understand
your voice, maybe some of yourpast posts or other things
you've written.
And for you to be able to thensay, hey, here's what I wrote
that I think I want to post fortomorrow.
(27:35):
It feels a little bit off.
Can you just help me adjust it alittle bit so it's a little bit
more clear or a little bit morepowerful or whatever?
And then when it does that, I'malso telling it to help you
reflect on that because it's notjust meant to be.
Hey, do it for me.
(27:55):
It also might make you a betterwriter or it might help you hone
your voice or your message alittle bit more because it might
ask you, you know, okay, here'swhat I'm thinking.
How does this feel?
You might have an aha moment inworking with that.
And so this is what I'm talkingabout.
It would be so easy to just optout of something like AI
(28:17):
completely and say like, Hey,Here's the level of
consciousness that I have.
Here's the spiritual beliefsthat I have.
And this is going to potentiallygo wrong in so many ways.
Let me just not use it.
But especially if how it worksis based off of what we're
(28:40):
feeding it.
then why wouldn't I jump in thegame?
Why wouldn't I try to feed itbetter things?
Why wouldn't I try to feed itmore conscious things?
Why wouldn't I teach it to speakto us a little bit differently,
to help us reflect, to help usbecome better, to help us
clarify our voice?
That's certainly not going tohave a net impact.
(29:03):
bad benefit, like a net negativebenefit for us.
I don't know how much good itwill cause.
Maybe it'll just bringeverything back to zero in a
sense.
Maybe it'll just cancel out someof the bad, but it's certainly
not going to cause things to gomore wrong in the AI space.
(29:23):
It's not going to create moreabuse of it.
It's going to potentially changethe way that at least a few
people are using it, potentiallyfor the better, potentially to
do something meaningful in theworld.
So again, I'm never here to tellyou there's one right answer.
(29:46):
I'm not even really here to tellyou that you absolutely have to
play the game.
Maybe you have a different wayof viewing this than I do, and
your perspective is valid.
And it's either valid for thepart of your journey that you're
on, or potentially there'swisdom in your perspective
that's wisdom that I don't have.
And maybe there's stillsomething I'm not seeing, but I
(30:08):
feel very aligned in the waythat I've chosen to play the
game and the ways that I'vestarted to see how I can use the
systems to try to do some good.
And that's not me saying theydon't still need to be
dismantled or whatever, but itis me saying that I'm not going
to opt out while waiting forcertain things to happen or
certain things to change just tobe able to do things vastly
(30:31):
differently.
I'm going to figure out how dowe get from point A to B.
If this is the systems that wewant right now, and this is the
systems that we wish we had,then somebody needs to help get
it to what we wish we had first.
Opting out of it, in my opinion,isn't going to do that.
(30:51):
And I don't really feel like Idid my, I feel like I did a
disservice both to myself and toyou when I was opting out.
I don't think that was doinganything for anyone.
Sure, maybe there were smallmoments where it was good.
Maybe I needed to opt out for mymental health or I needed to put
things down for a second.
But that's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm talking about how you'remaking a difference right where
(31:12):
you're at, even when it's hard,because maybe the system is set
up to try to not allow you tomake a difference or the system
is set up to try to get you tofail.
So if I were to leave you withthis, if I were to leave you
with anything, ask yourself overthe next week or even over the
(31:33):
next month, but we're going tohave new insights next week.
Ask yourself over the next week,how could I play the game a
little bit differently?
How could I show up more fully?
How could I look at somethingdifferently, like AI, to where
maybe I could change that forthe better?
(31:55):
Just consider that.
Just think about it and see whatcomes up for you.
Don't beat yourself up if youdon't come up with an answer.
Just throw it out there.
journal on it, meditate on it,think about it in the shower,
and just see what comes up foryou.
Because I bet there's one smallway that you can make a
(32:19):
difference.
I bet there's something like theway I'm seeing AI.
I know for a fact most peopleare not seeing that.
I'm literally creating my ownGPT because when I talk to other
people about it, they were like,I didn't know you could get it
to do that.
Can you please share that withus?
I didn't do it because I'm likesome kind of AI like junkie or
(32:43):
like tech, like insanely techsavvy person.
And I was just like, oh my God,how do I, you know, add one more
offer to my business?
And, you know, how do I get intothe AI, you know, how do I jump
on the AI train?
It literally came organicallybecause when I talked about the
way that I was viewing this,other people weren't viewing it
(33:06):
the same way and I saw how Icould help them.
You might find the same thing ifyou just sit with it, or even if
you just talk to other peopleabout it, normalize sharing your
experience.
You would be surprised how manytimes you learn something cool
about the way that someone elseviews the world, or you would be
(33:30):
surprised how many times youfind out that you're not alone.
Because so many of us have allof these weird thoughts, and
we're keeping them to ourselves,and we're not sharing them with
anybody else, but everybody elseis having the weird thoughts
too.
So how are you going to play thegame?
How are you going to share someweird thoughts?
(33:52):
And I'll leave you with that.
And again, I appreciate you somuch if you stayed here until
the end.
I love every minute of this.
And I trust that you got exactlywhat you needed today.
I'll look forward to connectingwith you again next week.
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