September 11, 2025 • 42 mins
Ergonomics for Dentists & Hygienists | My Conversation with Stephanie Botts
Dentistry is one of the most high-risk professions for musculoskeletal pain—and that means a huge opportunity for ergonomists. In this full interview, I sit down with Stephanie Botts, RDH, BSDH, CEAS, a practicing dental hygienist and certified ergonomics specialist, to explore how ergonomists can better understand and support the dental industry.
In this episode, we discuss:
- ✅ The unique ergonomic challenges in dentistry (and why pain is so normalized)
- ✅ Key risks for dentists, hygienists, and assistants—and how they compare to office/industrial ergonomics
- ✅ High-impact, low-cost fixes that consultants can recommend with confidence
- ✅ Why soft skills and patient management are essential for dental ergonomics
- ✅ How ergonomists can pitch services to dental practices and highlight ROI
If you’re an ergonomist looking to expand into niche markets, this conversation gives you the knowledge and language you’ll need to connect with dental professionals and provide real value.
Resources:
Free, Downloadable Office Ergo Resources: https://www.ergonomicshelp.com/free-training
Stephanie Botts website: https://polishedposture-shop.myshopify.com/
Stephanie Botts email: stephanie@polishedposture.net
Are you a healthcare professional curious about how office ergonomics assessments could fit into your services? I’ve got you covered with some valuable (and free!) resources at www.ergonomicshelp.com/free-training.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Darcie J's video recording (00:00):
it's like we almost have this entire
culture around pain and thatit's normalized and, I don't
agree with that, but that's howit is.
We definitely need help as aprofession.
Welcome to the Business ofErgonomics podcast.
I'm your host, Darcy Jeremy.
I'm a board certifiedprofessional agonist with over
15 years of experiencedelivering ergonomics programs
(00:23):
to employers of all differenttypes.
In this podcast, I share whatother healthcare professionals
are already doing and being withergonomics assessments and how
to land those clients that youdream of.
Without further ado, let's jumpinto this episode right now.
(00:48):
today we're diving into a nichethat often gets overlooked by
agonists and it's dentistry.
Dentists, hygienists andassistants face some of the
highest rates of musculoskeletalpain in any profession, and that
means there's a tremendousopportunity for agonists to step
in and make a real difference.
(01:09):
To help us explore this spaceand look for opportunities.
I'm joined today by StephanieBots.
Stephanie has been a clinicaldental hygienist for over 16
years.
She founded Polished Posture,her ergonomic coaching business
for dental professionals toassist those in the denta field
(01:29):
with ergonomics.
She understands the uniquedemands of practicing dentistry
and is passionate about thehealth and wellbeing of those
working in this field.
Her goal is to helppractitioners work safely and
more comfortably while reducingthe risks of early retirement
and disability.
In this episode, Stephanieshares insights that every
(01:51):
ergonomics professional shouldknow if they wanna break into
the dental industry from thebiggest ergonomics risks.
To practical fixes and how youcan communicate this to dental
practitioners too.
Darcie J's video recordin (02:07):
Thank you so much for being here
today.
Stephanie i's such a pleasure toconnect with you.
I saw various articles thatyou've written and I had to get
you on this call to talk aboutyour expertise to my audience.
So welcome.
Thank you so much, Darcy.
It's a honor to be here.
I'm excited to chat, ergonomicsand dentistry with you, Our
first step into.
(02:29):
Dentistry on this podcast, andthis is one of the very first
actual opportunities I've had toever talk about, dentistry with
an expert in this field.
Doubly welcome and I wanted toget start right at the
beginning.
How did you get started indentistry and what drew you to
ergonomics as a specialization?
Yeah.
So I'm a dental hygienist.
(02:49):
I've been practicing for about17 years.
I don't practice as much as Iwould like to anymore just
because of what I'm doing nowwith ergonomics.
But I've had a lot of dentalwork done.
I was, missing some teeth justfrom birth.
And so I was at the dentist alot when I was younger, and I
have very fond memories of goingto the dentist, which dentistry
(03:10):
gets a bad rap.
I had a great time.
So when it came to, decidingwhat I wanted to do, I wanted to
do something in healthcare.
I have a sister who is a doctor,and she's a gastroenterologist,
which means like a million yearsin school.
And I didn't wanna do that.
I was chatting with someone onvacation who was a dental
hygienist, and it just got thegears turning.
(03:30):
So long story short, I decidedto become one.
I went to school.
I love dentistry as a field.
I love being a hygienist and,ergonomics I thought I was going
to be working with patientsuntil I retired I was not
planning on going down the roadthat I've gone down, but with my
own experience with pain, that'swhy I started learning about
(03:54):
ergonomics and I realized howimportant it really is.
They tell us in dentistry howimportant it is, but if you
google dentist or dentalhygienist or anyone in
dentistry, you will see pictureafter picture of us just hunched
over our patients.
We know it's important.
Do we practice it?
Maybe there's some room forimprovement there.
(04:14):
So with my own experience, I,realized how important it is,
and I just had a light bulbmoment and I went back to
school, got certified inergonomics, started my company,
and I've just been helpingpeople ever since when, we're
looking at dentistry, there isan opportunity there and it's
beyond the receptionist in thefront desk you had that light
(04:35):
bulb moment that you referred tothat perhaps bending over isn't
the best step for dentists.
I wanna roll with that.
Are you more shifting to servingthose folks in the dentistry
area?
Yeah, I am actually, probablyabout a year ago I really
started having this identitycrisis because I was like, I'm a
hygienist and I have been takingcare of patients for so long
(04:59):
that just, our work becomes, Iwas not able to see patients as
much because I was getting busywith my business, which is good,
but then I'm just like, who amI?
What am I doing?
I don't know who I am anymore.
So I'm trying to reframe it nowas I do still, love clinical
hygiene.
I do it when I can, but my rolenow is to support dental
clinicians with their ergonomicsand help them practice safer so
(05:20):
that they can continue to treatpatients.
No, I don't see patients as muchas I would like.
I do a lot of different thingsnow with my business.
I'm doing assessments andcoaching, but I also create
content.
I have a podcast, I writearticles.
I consult with companies, all ofmy days are different.
I'm doing a bunch of differentstuff, but I'm just, trying to
serve dental clinicians, so thatthey can continue to work on
(05:44):
patients.
What would you say the mostinteresting thing about going
into your role right now servingdental clinicians?
I guess the most surprising.
Thing to me is just hownormalized people's pain is.
They consider, they're like, I'ma dentist, I'm an orthodontist,
I'm a hygienist, I'm anassistant, whatever it is, we're
(06:05):
all in pain.
It's all normal.
Like it's to be expected becausewe're in dentistry.
And that mindset, probably is mybiggest hurdle when I'm trying
to educate people because I'mtrying to open their minds to,
it doesn't, you don't have to bein pain.
You don't have to go homeexhausted at the end of the day.
You don't have to practice withyour arms up here and like doing
(06:29):
this thing or hunching over yourpatients.
There is a better way topractice.
And so that's probably been themost surprising thing to me.
However, the pain rates arestill extremely high, and that's
surprising too,'cause you wouldthink an increase in tech would
make our lives better.
But are we using those products?
Do we know how to use thoseproducts to our benefit?
(06:51):
So this, just the awareness ofthe fact that you can feel
better and there are ergonomiceducators out there for you.
That's probably been the biggestsurprising thing for me.
absolutely fascinating that thisprofession of high paid
professionals who went to schoolfor many years and are getting
paid because they can perform afunction to their patients.
(07:15):
And yet it's still very muchergonomics, 1970s or 1980s where
Oh, it's just part of the job.
Yeah.
Having the back pain or theshoulder pain or the wrist pain
or the hand pain, you're gonnaget that as part of the job and
it's absolutely so fascinatingto me.
And I wanna talk a bit aboutyour voice for the ergonomics
(07:35):
and the dental space, which isvery few and far between of
professionals doing this in thefirst place.
So I wanted to get really downto the idea of what inspired you
to start sharing your knowledgepublicly.
When I first started mybusiness, I actually, I did not
know anything about running abusiness.
So I hired a friend, and she'salso a business coach, and she
(07:56):
helped me for the first threemonths of my business.
I wasn't really on social mediaat the time, and to be frank
with you, Darcy, if I didn'thave my business, I probably
would not be on social media.
but she was like, I want you topost one thing per week on
ergonomics.
And I was like, okay, I can dothat.
So I started and I didn't have abig following at the time.
(08:19):
We all start from somewhere.
And I just started postinglittle facts that I was
learning.
It was almost like I was postingas I was learning things.
So I would learn about pinchforce, how we hold our
instruments.
I would learn about headposition, where we want our
head, just these little tips.
And they really startedresonating with people because
like you said, there's not awhole lot of us out here that
(08:41):
are talking about this.
So that one post per week turnedinto three posts per week and
then it was every day.
And then I started doing video,which really opened up how I can
share this information.
I want to give as much away.
That I can for free so thatpeople can learn how to better
take care of themselves.
(09:02):
A lot of what I post, if peoplereally take to heart what I'm
posting, and I don't know ifthis is probably bad for my
business to say this, but ifthey do everything that I've
posted for free, they don't needto hire me.
I give away everything I knowfor free.
That's actually been the driverreally is just to educate as
much as I can.
And then creating video too hasbeen, I do educational videos,
(09:25):
but I also do funny type thingsthat just, I like to spread
humor and make people laugh.
And it's opened up a way to helpme be creative as well.
There's so many of our listenerswho are hesitant about going
onto social media, whether it'sLinkedIn or another platform.
Because of the facts that areneeded to be shared on a daily
basis.
(09:45):
And, it's almost like that isthe hesitation for moving
forward.
It's that commitment that'srequired for long-term success.
But you really shared the valueof that, that it's helping those
people who are in need of help Ialso lecture on ergonomics too.
one of my strategies was after Ibuilt, my PowerPoint
(10:06):
presentation and startedlecturing, I was like, what if I
just take little snippets ofthis lecture and turn that into
a post?
So there's actually, I'moverloaded with ideas and
information to post.
And so there, that's never theissue.
But social media too, that's awhole nother conversation, but I
think the key to growth is beingconsistent and just really
(10:27):
remembering who you're servingand who you're trying to help.
One thing about what you bringto the market, you have the
lingo, the terms of the dentalspace.
So if you're listening to thisright now and you wanna help
those people in dentistry and wego to the dentist every six
months or whatever it is, andthen whatever you're doing to
(10:48):
get caught up on the lingo, Ithink that we have a really good
opportunity here with Stephanie.
And you can be a follower, youcan connect, maybe you can
provide value to Stephanie aswell.
There would be so muchopportunity to be a part of
Stephanie's network becausereally we're talking about niche
ergonomics and dentistry.
(11:09):
there's so much opportunity andit's so difficult for me to
really pinpoint the magnitude ofthis opportunity.
I was looking at some researchthis other week and it was just
showing how many.
Dentists orthos.
Hygienists are just working inpain.
I actually put that in aninfographic for my members of
(11:31):
Accelerate because this is ahuge opportunity and ergonomics
doesn't stop, at thereceptionist.
It's sharing value in thisspace.
So if you were gonna break intothe dental Orthon hygiene as an
what's the first thing that weneed to understand about this
space?
I think the hardest thing,'causeI work with office workers too,
(11:51):
and I think the hardest thingfor dental clinicians, when
you're trying to help someone indentistry with ergonomics is.
We're working on a patient.
And that's one of the hardestthings because most, if you
think about dentistry, I wishthis connotation wasn't out
there, but it is.
Most people have this negativeassociation with the dentist.
(12:13):
They hate going to the dentistwhere the butt of jokes, like
whatever.
But when you think about apatient coming in, you're trying
to keep that patientcomfortable.
Reducing the fear, reducing theanxiety.
Patients are alive and sometimesthey don't like to be in the
optimal position that we needthem in.
And that's the problem withdentistry is we're caretakers
(12:33):
and a lot of times we will putthe patient's need before our
own.
And so we position them in a waythat's comfortable for them.
But what does that mean for us?
It means we're twisting.
It means we're reaching, itmeans we're doing this thing
where we're like literallyupside down trying to look at
them.
So that's the biggest strugglewith dentistry.
And it's also really, I guess Iwould be remiss to say that you
(12:57):
got into this via officeergonomics assessments.
So would it be too far?
Of a guess that an optimalworking physician for a dentist
hygienist would be very similarto an office ergonomic setup.
It is, when I talk about,keyboard placement or mouse
placement, we want that.
(13:18):
The, what I recommend is we wantthat at the level of our elbow,
about when we're in neutralposture.
Okay.
It's the same thing with thepatient's mouth.
That's where the patient's mouthneeds to be.
That's our work surface, if youwanna think of it that way.
And a lot of times the patient'smouth is positioned too high
because many times the patientsdo not like to be reclined in
(13:39):
the chair all the way.
So when that work surface thepatient's mouth, is too high,
then we're out here, we'reabducting our arms, we're
struggling, our shoulders, we'relike doing this.
patient care is different thanworking on a desk.
And, you're bringing upsomething really interesting.
It's the soft skills when itcomes to optimal work posture
(14:02):
and how much more difficult thiscould be.
Because if you're looking atwhether or not a patient wants
to set up a mutually beneficial,optimal workstation for the
dentist, is that a need or awant for them?
Is that their preference to havetheir head at a certain
position?
Or is it a physical need wherethey're needing to sit in a
(14:22):
position for 30 minutes becauseof their own personal health
issues?
Do you ever get into concernslike that?
We're looking at soft skillstoo.
if you're coming to a situationwhere there is a dental
hygienist or a dentist or anortho, who's trying to work on a
particular patient, would yousay there is more soft skills to
(14:43):
this equation and sharing whyit's so valuable for that person
to be sitting in a reclinedposition at a certain height
rather than a little bit higheror a little bit lower.
Because at the end of the day,that person is gonna be
sacrificing their body to workat that particular hand working
height.
if that patient, doesn'tunderstand what's at stake for a
(15:04):
certain position, for thatclinician, there could be bigger
issues if that person is workingin that, awkward position for
longer periods of time.
in your background as ahealthcare professional, is it
more like the soft skills forexplaining The value of them
sitting a little bit lower ormore reclined in a chair there
are soft skills, there's patientmanagement, technique here.
(15:26):
When we're talking aboutpatients, they don't understand
that, if they're not reclinedall the way, that means we're
gonna be literally hurting forthe next hour or whatever it is.
They don't get it.
I also teach people how to framethings in a way that, is letting
the patient know what we needand why we need it, I need you
all the way back for this area.
(15:47):
If I can't see, I can't do asgood of a job for you, and I
wanna do a really good job foryou.
So there is patient managementthat goes into it as well.
It's not just, recline thepatient to this position and
then you're good.
Yeah.
It's like we have to learn howto talk to our patients too.
you're hitting.
The nail of my question in thehead, because typically as
ergonomists, you're just goingin and you look at how that
(16:10):
client is working at a computeror a monitor, and you're
applying the ergonomicsprinciples to that, and it's
fairly straightforward.
Or if you're working inindustrial ergonomics, you're
looking at how that person, thatoperator is using the tools and
you're determining whether ornot they're working within the
ergonomics, guidelines orstandards.
And this is so far in left fieldto me as a professional because
(16:35):
it's that person that you are,also working with, and then all
of the terms associated withthat.
I wanted to ask when it comes tothe unique parts of.
Performing ergonomics in thedental world.
Can you go into a little bitmore about the risks and some of
the concerns that you have as,an ergonomics professional?
(16:58):
Sure.
So when we're looking at riskwith dental clinicians, it
doesn't matter if you're adentist, hygienist, assistant
specialist, the pain rates areup in the 90 percents for us.
Most dental clinicians, ifthey're in the field long
enough, will develop pain at thevery least, pain at the very
(17:19):
most injury disability surgery.
My plan for taking care ofmyself was getting disability
insurance.
That's not a great plan becauseif you need, if you're in the
shape that you need disabilityinsurance, like you're pretty
miserable.
So we don't wanna get to thatpoint.
So it's, when I'm looking atdental clinicians, something as
simple as just having the armout here.
(17:40):
We call it the chicken wing armabduction.
Very common with us indentistry.
A lot of people think it'snormal.
It's not.
This will cause injury.
Everybody who's listening, I'msure knows this.
This will cause injury overtime.
The way we are holding ourinstruments, a lot of us are
just gripping, whatever it isthat we're holding and we're
causing a lot of strain.
(18:01):
So it's like these littlethings.
Will cumulatively add up andstart causing pain or injury.
I talk about this in mylectures.
Everything I'm teaching you isnot rocket science.
There's no genius to this.
But it does take a really highlevel of body awareness to
realize what you're doing, whichis not easy when you've got a
patient in front of you thatyou're also trying to take care
of.
(18:21):
So there's a lot of differentaspects to this.
And honestly, if I didn't havemy experience as a dental
clinician and I was trying tohelp dental clinicians, there is
a lot to learn.
I'm not gonna lie.
There is a lot to learn indentistry as far as our mindsets
and, the fact that we're workingon patients too.
Do you think it's toospecialized for agonists who
(18:43):
aren't in this field to getinto?
I don't think that it's toospecialized.
If someone really is passionateabout helping dental clinicians,
I would strongly encourage themto spend some time with dental
clinicians to realize what thestruggles are, what the issues
are.
Honestly, that's what I had todo.
Darcy, I got my certification asan ergonomic assessment
(19:06):
specialist.
My background was on officeworkers or industrial
ergonomics, or people working onan assembly line.
There's nothing like that indentistry.
There's no ergonomiccertification in dentistry yet.
Hopefully that will change atsome point, so I had to figure
out.
How does all this ergonomicknowledge apply to dentistry?
And that's what I did, is Ispent some time with dentists
(19:28):
and specialists and assistantsand hygienists to realize what
the issues are, and then I wasable to blend the two and create
my program from there.
But there are definitely uniquechallenges in dentistry, and you
and I talked before this, a lotof it happens up here in the
mind of dental clinicians tojust understand that there is
this better, smarter way topractice.
(19:50):
Let's move on to practicalguidance for consultants.
There is opportunity.
However, treating this like aregular office ergonomic
assessment isn't gonna be themost value add.
And maybe going into theliterature of peer review
journals likely will be part ofthe puzzle, but not provide
overall picture.
(20:11):
It's gonna be time spent withdentists to really hone your
craft.
So in your experience, what aresome of the more high impact or
low cost ergonomic fixes thatyou've seen work really well in
the dentist?
Are there some things that youwould say we need to look at?
Yeah, I guess there's a coupledifferent facets to that.
(20:33):
One is education, ergonomiceducation, whether it's an
assessment or a course overlunch or something, has been
shown to be effective in dentalclinicians tweaking their habits
a little bit.
If we're talking about products,there are some great products
out there for dental clinicians.
Loops have been around for along time.
They haven't solved the problembecause we see that pain is
(20:56):
still really high in dentalclinicians.
A lot of loops out there, and Ialways break people's hearts
when I say this.
These loops are expensive.
it's an investment that we allmake or most of us make anyway.
not all of them have beenergonomic because you put them
on and it does magnify theteeth, which is great, but
you're still having to flex yourneck and look down at the
(21:18):
patient, Which is not helpfulfor the neck.
Now they have ergonomic loopswhere there's a bend in the
scope, so it bends our visionand then we can see down into
the patient's mouth and have aneutral head.
So those hands down, I recommendfor mostly everyone.
Seating also is.
A big deal.
And I know before I learnedergonomics, I thought all stools
(21:40):
were the same.
Office chairs, like there's amillion different office chairs.
They're not all the same.
we all have different needs,different heights.
And it's the same with dentalstools.
So there's a particular type ofstool called a saddle stool.
I'm sitting on one right now.
That's what I like for myoffice.
That's what I recommend fordental clinicians too.
'cause it really supports aneutral, spine.
And there's some other likeinstruments and stuff like that.
(22:03):
But I think dental clinicians,sometimes they see these new
things like the ergonomic loopsand they think it's like
gimmicky or they think it's justa money grab or whatever.
And I will stand, behind thoseuntil I die.
It's not a scam.
It really does make adifference.
And same with So we need to lookat the products that we're using
every day and make sure thatthey're actually helping us and
(22:24):
not hurting us.
And I have even heard from mydental hygienist how expensive
they are for her, so she didn'tlook into them.
However, we all know thatthere's gonna be a return on
investment, especially if you'regonna be looking at the duration
of your career.
So have you ever done thatcalculation for them?
If it's$1,500 and they have evena two year career, would you say
(22:47):
that it's well worth the cost?
Yeah, I don't sit down crunchnumbers or anything like that,
but, I often use my ownexperience and I feel like I've
had a unique experience in thatI suffered the consequences of
not practicing ergonomically.
I know what that feels like.
I know what chronic pain is andhow it affects your life and
your day and your mood and justeverything.
(23:09):
So I try to encourage people tothink of it that way.
Sure, maybe this pair of loopsis$2,000.
that is a lot of money.
By the way, ergonomic loops,they're not necessarily more
expensive than regular ones.
I guess it depends on brands andstuff.
But most of the times they'recomparable to traditional loops.
But anyways, I just try toencourage people to think, okay,
(23:30):
$2,000 now.
What if that saved you years ofpain later?
And I explained to them howmiserable it is to live with
chronic pain because I've beenthere and also surgery or missed
days off of work.
What if I had plenty of misseddays from work.
I lost a lot of money because Icould not practice.
So trying to get people to thinkof that in the long term.
(23:54):
And also using analogies withpatient care.
We understand if patients don't,let's say, floss their teeth or
come in for their regularappointments, a lot of times
that will translate to thesehuge costs later on having to
fix teeth or get teeth pulled orget implants or whatever it is.
(24:16):
So a lot of times framing it insomething that they understand,
which is patient care, will helpthem be like, oh, okay, yeah, I
get it.
if we don't invest now, it isvery likely that we're gonna pay
for it later in one way oranother.
It's just reframing it, it's nota cost, it's an investment and
you're protecting yourself forthe future.
(24:36):
It can feel like a big hitinitially, but I say in my
presentations, we have one neck,literally one neck, and it has
to last hopefully 80, 90 plusyears.
It's not gonna last if we're inthis constant forward head
position with our neck justflexed and tense the whole time,
like it's gonna break at somepoint.
So it really is a no brainer toinvest in these ergonomic loops.
(24:58):
We talked about the neck upergonomic loops, and we talked
about the types of chairs.
You're saying saddle chairs.
Now, what about the types oftools?
Is there a particular weightthat you would recommend for
tools not to go beyond?
Or is it a brand that's reallyawesome?
I mean there's a lot ofdifferent brands out there.
the thing that I care about mostwhen it comes to instruments is
(25:19):
the handle.
We want to make sure whetherit's our instruments that people
are using or the mirrors thatpeople are using, that it's got
a nice wide fat handle.
There's still a lot of skinnyhandles out there that increases
pinch force, which can be acause of injury.
Take a look not only at theirinstruments, but at their
mirror, because 90% of the timewhen I'm doing assessments, the
(25:40):
instruments that they're using,whether it's a hygiene, scalor,
like a cleaning instrument isergonomic, it's great.
But these mirrors, they stillgot these heavy, like really
skinny handled mirrors in theirkits, which isn't doing them any
favors.
So that's what I care about mostwith instruments.
Would you recommend anyparticular brands that would be
(26:03):
more advisable?
'cause all these things have tobe stainless steel'cause they
have to go through the machinesright.
To get cleaned.
Are there any particular, brandsthat would be more ergonomic
that you found that, that peoplereally like?
I know that there's more brandsthan this, but, for mirrors, my
favorite is zerk.
ZIRC.
They've got some great ergonomicmirrors for hygiene instruments.
(26:25):
Some brands are PDT.
Those are my favorite.
Hugh Freed's.
Good.
American Eagle has some niceones for, dentists, restorative
instruments.
Hugh Friedy and PDT bothactually have some good ones,
but really it's just making surethat the handle has been
designed, in an ergonomic way.
In terms of ergonomics,countermeasures, you know the
(26:47):
drill, we look at theengineering, we look at the
administrative.
Now administratively, I wantedto dive down a little bit more.
So we're looking at either likejob enlargement, job rotation.
Do you ever recommend a clientto do a certain task in a
certain order, or is that likebeyond the scope of what an
ergonomists has the power torecommend?
(27:09):
Yeah.
As far as scheduling, that's agreat question.
A lot of scheduling is based onthe provider's personal
preference.
There's some dentists thatprefer to do all of their big
procedures on one day.
There's some that like toalternate and have big
procedure, and then maybe acouple little ones and then a
bigger one, couple little ones,Me personally, I think it makes
more sense to have somevariation during your day and
(27:32):
not be stuck in one appointmentfor four hours straight, because
that means that you're probablysitting in one spot for a fair
amount of time.
So I'll look at the scheduleand, if they want to discuss a
better way to schedule, I'll.
Suggest, trying to alternatesome of these bigger, longer
procedures with something thatmaybe takes an hour or half an
(27:53):
hour, something that they canget up and move around.
And so that they're not solocked in.
same with hygienists, it's alittle bit different, but there
are longer procedures that we doif someone has gum disease and
then there's shorter ones wheremaybe the patient is more
healthy.
I think having some variationwith those and not just not
doing the same thing over andover can help.
(28:13):
It's a precise task, Yeah.
I can only imagine that's notonly a high mental workload, but
also, everything with thosepinch tasks and those pinch
grips.
And there's procedures too,especially on the dentist side
where if someone comes in for afull set of veneers, that is a
long appointment.
And it's not like you can dolike a few of the front teeth
(28:35):
and leave them with a few of thefront teeth.
Not done.
That's not okay.
So there's some times where youare gonna have to be stuck there
for a long time.
I really recommend trying toalternate sitting and standing
for dental clinicians.
A lot of people think that theyhave to sit the whole time and
that's just not true.
So I do try if the doc is gonnabe sitting down for a two hour
(28:57):
type surgery or whatever, findtime where you can stand up and
move your body a little bit.
And man, the people that startdoing that, they feel a lot
better.
Wow.
Okay.
My mind is blown.
Sit to stand, obviously.
Great suggestion, but do youmean sit to stand, move your
patient to so that the wholechair is higher and you're
(29:18):
standing, working in theirmouth.
Yes.
So you need to vertically raisethe patient chair just like you
would with a standing desk,raise the height of the patient
chair so that their mouth, isstill at your elbows, but when
you're standing.
So it's just, it takes fiveseconds to stand up and then
raise the patient chair up.
Mind blown.
(29:39):
Yeah.
How many of your dentist aredoing stuff like that?
Or your hygienists are doingthat, I don't think enough are
doing it intentionally.
when I developed pain, it was inmy low back and it would flare
up every now and then, My teamknew that Steph was in pain
because she was standing,because when I would stand, it
felt better on my back than if Iwas sitting down.
(30:00):
But once I started learningabout ergonomics, I was like, oh
my God, this needs to be likestandard practice, for us to
move around.
'cause it just makes sense,right?
There's some dentists that willstand for extractions because
they need leverage and they needa bit more, visibility and
standing helps with that.
But I'm like, why not do thatwhen you're filling teeth?
Why not do that when you'regiving injections?
(30:21):
Yeah.
And it just they're like, Idon't know.
I don't know why I don't dothat.
That makes sense.
And so they'll start doing it.
So I wish more people would doit intentionally.
It really just makes sense tomake it part of your day.
your client's, life with thatwhole idea.
And, we did talk about that aslike a behavioral and an
administrative type of control,which is so valuable because I
(30:42):
know my listeners, their headsare also expanding with
knowledge as I speak.
'cause that is huge.
And I wanted to actually talkabout the reach position as
well.
So we talked about like the handworking height for reach
position and, getting as closeas possible to that mouth.
'cause as we know from theergonomics perspective, that
forward reach would be reallyhard on the shoulder, is there
(31:05):
something in terms of theworker's habit that you would
ever add coaching to?
Or is that just Hey, let's getthat patient as close as
possible to you and that's goingto give some value in terms of
reducing the ergonomic risk inthe shoulder.
Is that, what a typicalrecommendation could be?
Yeah.
So if we're talking about,trying to minimize reaching,
yes, it is getting as close toyour like target as possible,
(31:28):
right?
Which is the patient's mouth.
That's another benefit of saddlestools.
So when I'm talking about asaddle stool, it's like it's a
stool, but you also want it tobe positioned pretty high so
that the clinician's hips areabove their knees.
Okay.
What we don't want is to besitting in like a regular stool
with the legs jetting out infront of us because those legs
(31:51):
are getting in the way.
We cannot get close to ourpatient chair if our legs are in
the way.
Yeah.
So we need those legs pointeddown towards the floor, which is
what you get on a saddle, andthen you can get right up on
your patient.
there's something else indentistry call, we're all taught
this in school clock positionsThe patient, everything's
centered around the patient.
(32:12):
Okay.
And then we want to, based offof, if you think of a clock and
your patient being in the middleof that clock, you've got 12
o'clock, which means theclinician is right directly
behind the patient at 12o'clock.
but then we go, depending on ifyou're a righty or a lefty that
(32:32):
dictates your clock position.
I'm a, right-handed clinician,so I'm at nine o'clock.
So we've got 12 o'clock rightbehind the patient, nine
o'clock, which is to the side,and then we've got eight and
seven o'clock, which those Idon't really recommend.
But anyways, we're all taught,this is the issue I have with
school is, Ergonomics are notsomething that's really
(32:54):
standardized, and so some peopleare taught to only.
Work on the teeth from nineo'clock.
And then some people are taughtto work from 12 o'clock or one
o'clock, which may or may not bethe best thing for them,
depending on what clock positionwe're in, dictates how close or
not close we can be to thepatient.
I recommend trying to reallywork from behind the patient at
(33:16):
that 11 to one o'clock position.
That seems to be the best placefor us.
And then if we're off to theside, you wanna make sure that
you're squared up to yourpatient, not like twisting or
doing any of these awkwardmovements.
So there's, it's funny, I talkabout ergonomics.
I think about it all the time.
I'm in dentistry, and it's youdon't realize how much there is
(33:36):
to it until you start having aconversation like this.
And there's a lot to it.
And it's I just realize thatevery now and then.
This is what I think holds manyagonists back from going into
this field because there's muchmore to it.
There is, I have a questionabout a particular type of
chair.
And this is a chair that membersof the Accelerate program we've
talked about.
It's a saddle chair and thenthere's a horizontal arm bar in
(34:00):
the front.
is that a good enoughdescription for you to know what
type of chair I'm referring to?
It sounds like you might betalking about a dental assistant
stool.
They're tough.
The whole point, if you think ofa dental assistant what they're
doing is they're providingsupport for the dentist.
They're off to the side.
A lot of times when they'reassisting the doctor in this
way, their job is to transferinstruments to hand the dentist
(34:23):
what they need, and to also givesuction to the patient.
There's a lot of water that'shappening in the mouth, and we
need to control that withsuction.
So they've got two jobs, but.
The point of that bar supposedlyis to give them support because
oftentimes they're leaningforward because they have to
lean forward to see into themouth.
(34:44):
But that bar, and like Iunderstand maybe it gives
support, but also a lot of timesit's not adjusted correctly and
it's almost this, temptation tohunch over because they've got
something to lean on.
that's not necessarily what it'sfor.
So anyways, one of my big goalsbefore I retire is to completely
(35:04):
redesign the dental assistancestool, into something completely
different because it reallydoesn't promote an upright
healthy posture for dentalassistance.
That's what we have right now.
We try to make it work as bestwe can for dental assistant
stools.
I would love it if everyone useda saddle type seat pan and had a
(35:25):
back rest.
Dental assistants have some ofthe highest rates of low back
pain amongst all of us, and it'sbecause if you look at how a
dental assistant practices,they're hunched over and a lot
of times they're in this fixed,twisted position and trying to
work on the patient and beinglike that for hours a day.
It's just not good for them.
(35:46):
I guess my answer is it's whatwe have.
We're trying to make it work.
Is it the best?
No.
I think that we can come up withsomething better.
We just haven't yet.
When you are working with,dental assistants and dental,
hygienists and dentists andorthos.
I wanted to dive into a littlebit more about, the role of
(36:07):
behavior change.
And if you have noticed thatyour suggestions of getting up
or working with a certainposture, if that has been more
valuable than buying themexpensive equipment or the
chairs, It is tough becauseeveryone's different.
Some people, they can have greatbody habits, like they're not
(36:30):
reaching, they're not twisting,they're very aware of what
they're doing, but their loopssuck because they're doing this.
And so it's this person,literally all they need is a
pair of ergonomic loops, andthey're gonna be great.
This person over here maybe hasthe ergonomic loops in the
saddle chair and all of thesethings, and yet they're still
reaching, they're doing allthese crazy things.
(36:51):
They're reaching forward,they're twisting, they don't
have things organized correctly.
So that's more of a behaviorchange.
And honestly, everyone'sdifferent, but you can figure
out pretty quickly is this moreof a habit change type person or
does this person just need aproduct that will better support
them?
Because there's some cliniciansthat are, I'm almost like, you
don't need me.
You just need a better pair ofloops and you're gonna be fine.
(37:12):
So it just depends.
Yeah.
That is so brilliant.
But they do need you to makethat recommendation, otherwise
they would've never seen that.
And with the habits too.
That's so huge.
'cause I've worked with peoplethat, they've got the ergonomic
loops, which is great, butbecause their operatory or
operatory is like the room thatwe're working in, because it's
not organized in the right way.
(37:33):
They're doing this full armreach hundreds of times, maybe
thousands of times at the end ofthe day.
Or they're doing a cross bodyreach constantly because they're
trying to grab things.
So some of it is likeorganization too.
That's a whole nother layer ofergonomics as well.
So I think that rolls into mynext question.
do you provide any education orresources or coaching
(37:55):
specifically for ergonomicsconsultants who wanna learn more
about getting into this type ofservice?
Yeah, I had mentioned earlier,there is no ergonomic dental
certification.
I do think that's somethingthat's needed.
And I'm not the only one thattalks about ergonomics and
dentistry.
There's a few of us, but notnearly enough.
(38:16):
So part of my five year plan, Iwould love to create at least
something to give somebackground to people who can
then start helping more dentalclinicians because we need a lot
of help.
Short answer, no, there isn'tanything that exists now to my
knowledge at least.
And, it is on my list of thingsto do in the future.
(38:37):
We'll keep an eye out for thatfor sure.
And I know from this.
Podcast episode that there'sgonna be some people who hungry
to get information from you.
So you are probably gonna getmore followers or more requests
from, ergonomists because thisis very much a hot topic.
It really is a hot topic.
As we roll into the end of thisepisode, I wanted to touch base
(39:00):
on just the pitching becausethere's a language to this that
you are hinting to for theduration of this episode.
And is there any simple advicethat you would give to someone
who wants to pitch ergonomicservices to a dental or an ortho
practice?
I think too, and by the way, Iwanted to mention, if anyone
(39:21):
wants to contact me, ask me anyquestions, please feel free.
I'm on social media, I've myemail, whatever.
I'm happy to help you.
But I think for dentalclinicians, meeting them where
they're at, which is most ofthem are in pain.
Letting people know that a lotof dental clinicians are in
pain, however, it does not haveto be that way.
Providing information on thebenefits to them.
(39:45):
Not going home exhausted at theend of the day, not having to
cancel your day because yourneck or your back is out again,
especially for practice owners,a lot of this is talking to the
people who own the practice andtheir language is money.
And so if we're having to cancelpatients because someone's
injured, that's lost money forthat day.
Investing in ergonomic trainingwill help reduce those loss
(40:09):
days, which increases revenue,but also.
A lot of dental clinicians are,in pain.
They're burnt out, they'retired.
investing in something like thiswill help them not be tired and
burnt out.
But also as a practice ownerbringing this service to your
team, it will show them that youcare about them, you care about
(40:31):
their wellbeing, and you'reinvesting in this training so
that they feel better.
And that's also goes a long wayfor morale and the feel goods
that we all like.
Those are such worthwhileangles, and it connects with the
really important, if we canconnect on the dollar value,
then we can also connect on themorale and more of the soft
elements as well and bring in awhole holistic picture.
(40:53):
And right now too, we're havinga huge staffing crisis in
dentistry where it's very hardto find.
Team members, you wanna takecare of those team members that
you have.
If they leave you or have toleave because of surgery some of
these operatories that are outthere are, not ergonomic at all,
and they are hurting people.
(41:13):
And so if you have someonethat's leaving because of that,
it's gonna be tough for you tofind someone.
So we wanna maintain our team.
It's almost like looking at yourteam as like equipment that we
need to maintain.
That's a harsh way to look atit, but we do need to maintain
them.
So it's much easier to maintainit versus starting over and
trying to find someone to fill aspot because someone's left.
(41:35):
Stephanie, I wanna thank you somuch for spending your.
Time with us today and sharingyour hard earned expertise with
the listeners of this podcast.
Accelerate the business ofergonomics helps healthcare
professionals building their ownthriving ergonomic service
business, and it's opening forenrollment soon.
(41:55):
You can register now just bygoing to ergonomics help.com/biz
to be the first notified once weopen up the doors to accelerate
so that you too can tap into thestrategies to build, attract
customers, and raise your incomewith your own ergonomic
services.
Join the notification list toget the processes, the
(42:17):
resources, and your futuremembers you'll work with inside
the program.
You'll be the first to knowabout any brand new free
training that I release, andyou'll be the first in line when
we open up the doors toaccelerate the business of
ergonomics.
Next, all you gotta do is headto ergonomics help.com/biz to
get started now.
it's like we almost have this entire
culture around pain and thatit's normalized and, I don't
agree with that, but that's howit is.
We definitely need help as aprofession.
Welcome to the Business ofErgonomics podcast.
I'm your host, Darcy Jeremy.
I'm a board certifiedprofessional agonist with over
15 years of experiencedelivering ergonomics programs
(00:23):
to employers of all differenttypes.
In this podcast, I share whatother healthcare professionals
are already doing and being withergonomics assessments and how
to land those clients that youdream of.
Without further ado, let's jumpinto this episode right now.
(00:48):
today we're diving into a nichethat often gets overlooked by
agonists and it's dentistry.
Dentists, hygienists andassistants face some of the
highest rates of musculoskeletalpain in any profession, and that
means there's a tremendousopportunity for agonists to step
in and make a real difference.
(01:09):
To help us explore this spaceand look for opportunities.
I'm joined today by StephanieBots.
Stephanie has been a clinicaldental hygienist for over 16
years.
She founded Polished Posture,her ergonomic coaching business
for dental professionals toassist those in the denta field
(01:29):
with ergonomics.
She understands the uniquedemands of practicing dentistry
and is passionate about thehealth and wellbeing of those
working in this field.
Her goal is to helppractitioners work safely and
more comfortably while reducingthe risks of early retirement
and disability.
In this episode, Stephanieshares insights that every
(01:51):
ergonomics professional shouldknow if they wanna break into
the dental industry from thebiggest ergonomics risks.
To practical fixes and how youcan communicate this to dental
practitioners too.
Darcie J's video recordin (02:07):
Thank you so much for being here
today.
Stephanie i's such a pleasure toconnect with you.
I saw various articles thatyou've written and I had to get
you on this call to talk aboutyour expertise to my audience.
So welcome.
Thank you so much, Darcy.
It's a honor to be here.
I'm excited to chat, ergonomicsand dentistry with you, Our
first step into.
(02:29):
Dentistry on this podcast, andthis is one of the very first
actual opportunities I've had toever talk about, dentistry with
an expert in this field.
Doubly welcome and I wanted toget start right at the
beginning.
How did you get started indentistry and what drew you to
ergonomics as a specialization?
Yeah.
So I'm a dental hygienist.
(02:49):
I've been practicing for about17 years.
I don't practice as much as Iwould like to anymore just
because of what I'm doing nowwith ergonomics.
But I've had a lot of dentalwork done.
I was, missing some teeth justfrom birth.
And so I was at the dentist alot when I was younger, and I
have very fond memories of goingto the dentist, which dentistry
(03:10):
gets a bad rap.
I had a great time.
So when it came to, decidingwhat I wanted to do, I wanted to
do something in healthcare.
I have a sister who is a doctor,and she's a gastroenterologist,
which means like a million yearsin school.
And I didn't wanna do that.
I was chatting with someone onvacation who was a dental
hygienist, and it just got thegears turning.
(03:30):
So long story short, I decidedto become one.
I went to school.
I love dentistry as a field.
I love being a hygienist and,ergonomics I thought I was going
to be working with patientsuntil I retired I was not
planning on going down the roadthat I've gone down, but with my
own experience with pain, that'swhy I started learning about
(03:54):
ergonomics and I realized howimportant it really is.
They tell us in dentistry howimportant it is, but if you
google dentist or dentalhygienist or anyone in
dentistry, you will see pictureafter picture of us just hunched
over our patients.
We know it's important.
Do we practice it?
Maybe there's some room forimprovement there.
(04:14):
So with my own experience, I,realized how important it is,
and I just had a light bulbmoment and I went back to
school, got certified inergonomics, started my company,
and I've just been helpingpeople ever since when, we're
looking at dentistry, there isan opportunity there and it's
beyond the receptionist in thefront desk you had that light
(04:35):
bulb moment that you referred tothat perhaps bending over isn't
the best step for dentists.
I wanna roll with that.
Are you more shifting to servingthose folks in the dentistry
area?
Yeah, I am actually, probablyabout a year ago I really
started having this identitycrisis because I was like, I'm a
hygienist and I have been takingcare of patients for so long
(04:59):
that just, our work becomes, Iwas not able to see patients as
much because I was getting busywith my business, which is good,
but then I'm just like, who amI?
What am I doing?
I don't know who I am anymore.
So I'm trying to reframe it nowas I do still, love clinical
hygiene.
I do it when I can, but my rolenow is to support dental
clinicians with their ergonomicsand help them practice safer so
(05:20):
that they can continue to treatpatients.
No, I don't see patients as muchas I would like.
I do a lot of different thingsnow with my business.
I'm doing assessments andcoaching, but I also create
content.
I have a podcast, I writearticles.
I consult with companies, all ofmy days are different.
I'm doing a bunch of differentstuff, but I'm just, trying to
serve dental clinicians, so thatthey can continue to work on
(05:44):
patients.
What would you say the mostinteresting thing about going
into your role right now servingdental clinicians?
I guess the most surprising.
Thing to me is just hownormalized people's pain is.
They consider, they're like, I'ma dentist, I'm an orthodontist,
I'm a hygienist, I'm anassistant, whatever it is, we're
(06:05):
all in pain.
It's all normal.
Like it's to be expected becausewe're in dentistry.
And that mindset, probably is mybiggest hurdle when I'm trying
to educate people because I'mtrying to open their minds to,
it doesn't, you don't have to bein pain.
You don't have to go homeexhausted at the end of the day.
You don't have to practice withyour arms up here and like doing
(06:29):
this thing or hunching over yourpatients.
There is a better way topractice.
And so that's probably been themost surprising thing to me.
However, the pain rates arestill extremely high, and that's
surprising too,'cause you wouldthink an increase in tech would
make our lives better.
But are we using those products?
Do we know how to use thoseproducts to our benefit?
(06:51):
So this, just the awareness ofthe fact that you can feel
better and there are ergonomiceducators out there for you.
That's probably been the biggestsurprising thing for me.
absolutely fascinating that thisprofession of high paid
professionals who went to schoolfor many years and are getting
paid because they can perform afunction to their patients.
(07:15):
And yet it's still very muchergonomics, 1970s or 1980s where
Oh, it's just part of the job.
Yeah.
Having the back pain or theshoulder pain or the wrist pain
or the hand pain, you're gonnaget that as part of the job and
it's absolutely so fascinatingto me.
And I wanna talk a bit aboutyour voice for the ergonomics
(07:35):
and the dental space, which isvery few and far between of
professionals doing this in thefirst place.
So I wanted to get really downto the idea of what inspired you
to start sharing your knowledgepublicly.
When I first started mybusiness, I actually, I did not
know anything about running abusiness.
So I hired a friend, and she'salso a business coach, and she
(07:56):
helped me for the first threemonths of my business.
I wasn't really on social mediaat the time, and to be frank
with you, Darcy, if I didn'thave my business, I probably
would not be on social media.
but she was like, I want you topost one thing per week on
ergonomics.
And I was like, okay, I can dothat.
So I started and I didn't have abig following at the time.
(08:19):
We all start from somewhere.
And I just started postinglittle facts that I was
learning.
It was almost like I was postingas I was learning things.
So I would learn about pinchforce, how we hold our
instruments.
I would learn about headposition, where we want our
head, just these little tips.
And they really startedresonating with people because
like you said, there's not awhole lot of us out here that
(08:41):
are talking about this.
So that one post per week turnedinto three posts per week and
then it was every day.
And then I started doing video,which really opened up how I can
share this information.
I want to give as much away.
That I can for free so thatpeople can learn how to better
take care of themselves.
(09:02):
A lot of what I post, if peoplereally take to heart what I'm
posting, and I don't know ifthis is probably bad for my
business to say this, but ifthey do everything that I've
posted for free, they don't needto hire me.
I give away everything I knowfor free.
That's actually been the driverreally is just to educate as
much as I can.
And then creating video too hasbeen, I do educational videos,
(09:25):
but I also do funny type thingsthat just, I like to spread
humor and make people laugh.
And it's opened up a way to helpme be creative as well.
There's so many of our listenerswho are hesitant about going
onto social media, whether it'sLinkedIn or another platform.
Because of the facts that areneeded to be shared on a daily
basis.
(09:45):
And, it's almost like that isthe hesitation for moving
forward.
It's that commitment that'srequired for long-term success.
But you really shared the valueof that, that it's helping those
people who are in need of help Ialso lecture on ergonomics too.
one of my strategies was after Ibuilt, my PowerPoint
(10:06):
presentation and startedlecturing, I was like, what if I
just take little snippets ofthis lecture and turn that into
a post?
So there's actually, I'moverloaded with ideas and
information to post.
And so there, that's never theissue.
But social media too, that's awhole nother conversation, but I
think the key to growth is beingconsistent and just really
(10:27):
remembering who you're servingand who you're trying to help.
One thing about what you bringto the market, you have the
lingo, the terms of the dentalspace.
So if you're listening to thisright now and you wanna help
those people in dentistry and wego to the dentist every six
months or whatever it is, andthen whatever you're doing to
(10:48):
get caught up on the lingo, Ithink that we have a really good
opportunity here with Stephanie.
And you can be a follower, youcan connect, maybe you can
provide value to Stephanie aswell.
There would be so muchopportunity to be a part of
Stephanie's network becausereally we're talking about niche
ergonomics and dentistry.
(11:09):
there's so much opportunity andit's so difficult for me to
really pinpoint the magnitude ofthis opportunity.
I was looking at some researchthis other week and it was just
showing how many.
Dentists orthos.
Hygienists are just working inpain.
I actually put that in aninfographic for my members of
(11:31):
Accelerate because this is ahuge opportunity and ergonomics
doesn't stop, at thereceptionist.
It's sharing value in thisspace.
So if you were gonna break intothe dental Orthon hygiene as an
what's the first thing that weneed to understand about this
space?
I think the hardest thing,'causeI work with office workers too,
(11:51):
and I think the hardest thingfor dental clinicians, when
you're trying to help someone indentistry with ergonomics is.
We're working on a patient.
And that's one of the hardestthings because most, if you
think about dentistry, I wishthis connotation wasn't out
there, but it is.
Most people have this negativeassociation with the dentist.
(12:13):
They hate going to the dentistwhere the butt of jokes, like
whatever.
But when you think about apatient coming in, you're trying
to keep that patientcomfortable.
Reducing the fear, reducing theanxiety.
Patients are alive and sometimesthey don't like to be in the
optimal position that we needthem in.
And that's the problem withdentistry is we're caretakers
(12:33):
and a lot of times we will putthe patient's need before our
own.
And so we position them in a waythat's comfortable for them.
But what does that mean for us?
It means we're twisting.
It means we're reaching, itmeans we're doing this thing
where we're like literallyupside down trying to look at
them.
So that's the biggest strugglewith dentistry.
And it's also really, I guess Iwould be remiss to say that you
(12:57):
got into this via officeergonomics assessments.
So would it be too far?
Of a guess that an optimalworking physician for a dentist
hygienist would be very similarto an office ergonomic setup.
It is, when I talk about,keyboard placement or mouse
placement, we want that.
(13:18):
The, what I recommend is we wantthat at the level of our elbow,
about when we're in neutralposture.
Okay.
It's the same thing with thepatient's mouth.
That's where the patient's mouthneeds to be.
That's our work surface, if youwanna think of it that way.
And a lot of times the patient'smouth is positioned too high
because many times the patientsdo not like to be reclined in
(13:39):
the chair all the way.
So when that work surface thepatient's mouth, is too high,
then we're out here, we'reabducting our arms, we're
struggling, our shoulders, we'relike doing this.
patient care is different thanworking on a desk.
And, you're bringing upsomething really interesting.
It's the soft skills when itcomes to optimal work posture
(14:02):
and how much more difficult thiscould be.
Because if you're looking atwhether or not a patient wants
to set up a mutually beneficial,optimal workstation for the
dentist, is that a need or awant for them?
Is that their preference to havetheir head at a certain
position?
Or is it a physical need wherethey're needing to sit in a
(14:22):
position for 30 minutes becauseof their own personal health
issues?
Do you ever get into concernslike that?
We're looking at soft skillstoo.
if you're coming to a situationwhere there is a dental
hygienist or a dentist or anortho, who's trying to work on a
particular patient, would yousay there is more soft skills to
(14:43):
this equation and sharing whyit's so valuable for that person
to be sitting in a reclinedposition at a certain height
rather than a little bit higheror a little bit lower.
Because at the end of the day,that person is gonna be
sacrificing their body to workat that particular hand working
height.
if that patient, doesn'tunderstand what's at stake for a
(15:04):
certain position, for thatclinician, there could be bigger
issues if that person is workingin that, awkward position for
longer periods of time.
in your background as ahealthcare professional, is it
more like the soft skills forexplaining The value of them
sitting a little bit lower ormore reclined in a chair there
are soft skills, there's patientmanagement, technique here.
(15:26):
When we're talking aboutpatients, they don't understand
that, if they're not reclinedall the way, that means we're
gonna be literally hurting forthe next hour or whatever it is.
They don't get it.
I also teach people how to framethings in a way that, is letting
the patient know what we needand why we need it, I need you
all the way back for this area.
(15:47):
If I can't see, I can't do asgood of a job for you, and I
wanna do a really good job foryou.
So there is patient managementthat goes into it as well.
It's not just, recline thepatient to this position and
then you're good.
Yeah.
It's like we have to learn howto talk to our patients too.
you're hitting.
The nail of my question in thehead, because typically as
ergonomists, you're just goingin and you look at how that
(16:10):
client is working at a computeror a monitor, and you're
applying the ergonomicsprinciples to that, and it's
fairly straightforward.
Or if you're working inindustrial ergonomics, you're
looking at how that person, thatoperator is using the tools and
you're determining whether ornot they're working within the
ergonomics, guidelines orstandards.
And this is so far in left fieldto me as a professional because
(16:35):
it's that person that you are,also working with, and then all
of the terms associated withthat.
I wanted to ask when it comes tothe unique parts of.
Performing ergonomics in thedental world.
Can you go into a little bitmore about the risks and some of
the concerns that you have as,an ergonomics professional?
(16:58):
Sure.
So when we're looking at riskwith dental clinicians, it
doesn't matter if you're adentist, hygienist, assistant
specialist, the pain rates areup in the 90 percents for us.
Most dental clinicians, ifthey're in the field long
enough, will develop pain at thevery least, pain at the very
(17:19):
most injury disability surgery.
My plan for taking care ofmyself was getting disability
insurance.
That's not a great plan becauseif you need, if you're in the
shape that you need disabilityinsurance, like you're pretty
miserable.
So we don't wanna get to thatpoint.
So it's, when I'm looking atdental clinicians, something as
simple as just having the armout here.
(17:40):
We call it the chicken wing armabduction.
Very common with us indentistry.
A lot of people think it'snormal.
It's not.
This will cause injury.
Everybody who's listening, I'msure knows this.
This will cause injury overtime.
The way we are holding ourinstruments, a lot of us are
just gripping, whatever it isthat we're holding and we're
causing a lot of strain.
(18:01):
So it's like these littlethings.
Will cumulatively add up andstart causing pain or injury.
I talk about this in mylectures.
Everything I'm teaching you isnot rocket science.
There's no genius to this.
But it does take a really highlevel of body awareness to
realize what you're doing, whichis not easy when you've got a
patient in front of you thatyou're also trying to take care
of.
(18:21):
So there's a lot of differentaspects to this.
And honestly, if I didn't havemy experience as a dental
clinician and I was trying tohelp dental clinicians, there is
a lot to learn.
I'm not gonna lie.
There is a lot to learn indentistry as far as our mindsets
and, the fact that we're workingon patients too.
Do you think it's toospecialized for agonists who
(18:43):
aren't in this field to getinto?
I don't think that it's toospecialized.
If someone really is passionateabout helping dental clinicians,
I would strongly encourage themto spend some time with dental
clinicians to realize what thestruggles are, what the issues
are.
Honestly, that's what I had todo.
Darcy, I got my certification asan ergonomic assessment
(19:06):
specialist.
My background was on officeworkers or industrial
ergonomics, or people working onan assembly line.
There's nothing like that indentistry.
There's no ergonomiccertification in dentistry yet.
Hopefully that will change atsome point, so I had to figure
out.
How does all this ergonomicknowledge apply to dentistry?
And that's what I did, is Ispent some time with dentists
(19:28):
and specialists and assistantsand hygienists to realize what
the issues are, and then I wasable to blend the two and create
my program from there.
But there are definitely uniquechallenges in dentistry, and you
and I talked before this, a lotof it happens up here in the
mind of dental clinicians tojust understand that there is
this better, smarter way topractice.
(19:50):
Let's move on to practicalguidance for consultants.
There is opportunity.
However, treating this like aregular office ergonomic
assessment isn't gonna be themost value add.
And maybe going into theliterature of peer review
journals likely will be part ofthe puzzle, but not provide
overall picture.
(20:11):
It's gonna be time spent withdentists to really hone your
craft.
So in your experience, what aresome of the more high impact or
low cost ergonomic fixes thatyou've seen work really well in
the dentist?
Are there some things that youwould say we need to look at?
Yeah, I guess there's a coupledifferent facets to that.
(20:33):
One is education, ergonomiceducation, whether it's an
assessment or a course overlunch or something, has been
shown to be effective in dentalclinicians tweaking their habits
a little bit.
If we're talking about products,there are some great products
out there for dental clinicians.
Loops have been around for along time.
They haven't solved the problembecause we see that pain is
(20:56):
still really high in dentalclinicians.
A lot of loops out there, and Ialways break people's hearts
when I say this.
These loops are expensive.
it's an investment that we allmake or most of us make anyway.
not all of them have beenergonomic because you put them
on and it does magnify theteeth, which is great, but
you're still having to flex yourneck and look down at the
(21:18):
patient, Which is not helpfulfor the neck.
Now they have ergonomic loopswhere there's a bend in the
scope, so it bends our visionand then we can see down into
the patient's mouth and have aneutral head.
So those hands down, I recommendfor mostly everyone.
Seating also is.
A big deal.
And I know before I learnedergonomics, I thought all stools
(21:40):
were the same.
Office chairs, like there's amillion different office chairs.
They're not all the same.
we all have different needs,different heights.
And it's the same with dentalstools.
So there's a particular type ofstool called a saddle stool.
I'm sitting on one right now.
That's what I like for myoffice.
That's what I recommend fordental clinicians too.
'cause it really supports aneutral, spine.
And there's some other likeinstruments and stuff like that.
(22:03):
But I think dental clinicians,sometimes they see these new
things like the ergonomic loopsand they think it's like
gimmicky or they think it's justa money grab or whatever.
And I will stand, behind thoseuntil I die.
It's not a scam.
It really does make adifference.
And same with So we need to lookat the products that we're using
every day and make sure thatthey're actually helping us and
(22:24):
not hurting us.
And I have even heard from mydental hygienist how expensive
they are for her, so she didn'tlook into them.
However, we all know thatthere's gonna be a return on
investment, especially if you'regonna be looking at the duration
of your career.
So have you ever done thatcalculation for them?
If it's$1,500 and they have evena two year career, would you say
(22:47):
that it's well worth the cost?
Yeah, I don't sit down crunchnumbers or anything like that,
but, I often use my ownexperience and I feel like I've
had a unique experience in thatI suffered the consequences of
not practicing ergonomically.
I know what that feels like.
I know what chronic pain is andhow it affects your life and
your day and your mood and justeverything.
(23:09):
So I try to encourage people tothink of it that way.
Sure, maybe this pair of loopsis$2,000.
that is a lot of money.
By the way, ergonomic loops,they're not necessarily more
expensive than regular ones.
I guess it depends on brands andstuff.
But most of the times they'recomparable to traditional loops.
But anyways, I just try toencourage people to think, okay,
(23:30):
$2,000 now.
What if that saved you years ofpain later?
And I explained to them howmiserable it is to live with
chronic pain because I've beenthere and also surgery or missed
days off of work.
What if I had plenty of misseddays from work.
I lost a lot of money because Icould not practice.
So trying to get people to thinkof that in the long term.
(23:54):
And also using analogies withpatient care.
We understand if patients don't,let's say, floss their teeth or
come in for their regularappointments, a lot of times
that will translate to thesehuge costs later on having to
fix teeth or get teeth pulled orget implants or whatever it is.
(24:16):
So a lot of times framing it insomething that they understand,
which is patient care, will helpthem be like, oh, okay, yeah, I
get it.
if we don't invest now, it isvery likely that we're gonna pay
for it later in one way oranother.
It's just reframing it, it's nota cost, it's an investment and
you're protecting yourself forthe future.
(24:36):
It can feel like a big hitinitially, but I say in my
presentations, we have one neck,literally one neck, and it has
to last hopefully 80, 90 plusyears.
It's not gonna last if we're inthis constant forward head
position with our neck justflexed and tense the whole time,
like it's gonna break at somepoint.
So it really is a no brainer toinvest in these ergonomic loops.
(24:58):
We talked about the neck upergonomic loops, and we talked
about the types of chairs.
You're saying saddle chairs.
Now, what about the types oftools?
Is there a particular weightthat you would recommend for
tools not to go beyond?
Or is it a brand that's reallyawesome?
I mean there's a lot ofdifferent brands out there.
the thing that I care about mostwhen it comes to instruments is
(25:19):
the handle.
We want to make sure whetherit's our instruments that people
are using or the mirrors thatpeople are using, that it's got
a nice wide fat handle.
There's still a lot of skinnyhandles out there that increases
pinch force, which can be acause of injury.
Take a look not only at theirinstruments, but at their
mirror, because 90% of the timewhen I'm doing assessments, the
(25:40):
instruments that they're using,whether it's a hygiene, scalor,
like a cleaning instrument isergonomic, it's great.
But these mirrors, they stillgot these heavy, like really
skinny handled mirrors in theirkits, which isn't doing them any
favors.
So that's what I care about mostwith instruments.
Would you recommend anyparticular brands that would be
(26:03):
more advisable?
'cause all these things have tobe stainless steel'cause they
have to go through the machinesright.
To get cleaned.
Are there any particular, brandsthat would be more ergonomic
that you found that, that peoplereally like?
I know that there's more brandsthan this, but, for mirrors, my
favorite is zerk.
ZIRC.
They've got some great ergonomicmirrors for hygiene instruments.
(26:25):
Some brands are PDT.
Those are my favorite.
Hugh Freed's.
Good.
American Eagle has some niceones for, dentists, restorative
instruments.
Hugh Friedy and PDT bothactually have some good ones,
but really it's just making surethat the handle has been
designed, in an ergonomic way.
In terms of ergonomics,countermeasures, you know the
(26:47):
drill, we look at theengineering, we look at the
administrative.
Now administratively, I wantedto dive down a little bit more.
So we're looking at either likejob enlargement, job rotation.
Do you ever recommend a clientto do a certain task in a
certain order, or is that likebeyond the scope of what an
ergonomists has the power torecommend?
(27:09):
Yeah.
As far as scheduling, that's agreat question.
A lot of scheduling is based onthe provider's personal
preference.
There's some dentists thatprefer to do all of their big
procedures on one day.
There's some that like toalternate and have big
procedure, and then maybe acouple little ones and then a
bigger one, couple little ones,Me personally, I think it makes
more sense to have somevariation during your day and
(27:32):
not be stuck in one appointmentfor four hours straight, because
that means that you're probablysitting in one spot for a fair
amount of time.
So I'll look at the scheduleand, if they want to discuss a
better way to schedule, I'll.
Suggest, trying to alternatesome of these bigger, longer
procedures with something thatmaybe takes an hour or half an
(27:53):
hour, something that they canget up and move around.
And so that they're not solocked in.
same with hygienists, it's alittle bit different, but there
are longer procedures that we doif someone has gum disease and
then there's shorter ones wheremaybe the patient is more
healthy.
I think having some variationwith those and not just not
doing the same thing over andover can help.
(28:13):
It's a precise task, Yeah.
I can only imagine that's notonly a high mental workload, but
also, everything with thosepinch tasks and those pinch
grips.
And there's procedures too,especially on the dentist side
where if someone comes in for afull set of veneers, that is a
long appointment.
And it's not like you can dolike a few of the front teeth
(28:35):
and leave them with a few of thefront teeth.
Not done.
That's not okay.
So there's some times where youare gonna have to be stuck there
for a long time.
I really recommend trying toalternate sitting and standing
for dental clinicians.
A lot of people think that theyhave to sit the whole time and
that's just not true.
So I do try if the doc is gonnabe sitting down for a two hour
(28:57):
type surgery or whatever, findtime where you can stand up and
move your body a little bit.
And man, the people that startdoing that, they feel a lot
better.
Wow.
Okay.
My mind is blown.
Sit to stand, obviously.
Great suggestion, but do youmean sit to stand, move your
patient to so that the wholechair is higher and you're
(29:18):
standing, working in theirmouth.
Yes.
So you need to vertically raisethe patient chair just like you
would with a standing desk,raise the height of the patient
chair so that their mouth, isstill at your elbows, but when
you're standing.
So it's just, it takes fiveseconds to stand up and then
raise the patient chair up.
Mind blown.
(29:39):
Yeah.
How many of your dentist aredoing stuff like that?
Or your hygienists are doingthat, I don't think enough are
doing it intentionally.
when I developed pain, it was inmy low back and it would flare
up every now and then, My teamknew that Steph was in pain
because she was standing,because when I would stand, it
felt better on my back than if Iwas sitting down.
(30:00):
But once I started learningabout ergonomics, I was like, oh
my God, this needs to be likestandard practice, for us to
move around.
'cause it just makes sense,right?
There's some dentists that willstand for extractions because
they need leverage and they needa bit more, visibility and
standing helps with that.
But I'm like, why not do thatwhen you're filling teeth?
Why not do that when you'regiving injections?
(30:21):
Yeah.
And it just they're like, Idon't know.
I don't know why I don't dothat.
That makes sense.
And so they'll start doing it.
So I wish more people would doit intentionally.
It really just makes sense tomake it part of your day.
your client's, life with thatwhole idea.
And, we did talk about that aslike a behavioral and an
administrative type of control,which is so valuable because I
(30:42):
know my listeners, their headsare also expanding with
knowledge as I speak.
'cause that is huge.
And I wanted to actually talkabout the reach position as
well.
So we talked about like the handworking height for reach
position and, getting as closeas possible to that mouth.
'cause as we know from theergonomics perspective, that
forward reach would be reallyhard on the shoulder, is there
(31:05):
something in terms of theworker's habit that you would
ever add coaching to?
Or is that just Hey, let's getthat patient as close as
possible to you and that's goingto give some value in terms of
reducing the ergonomic risk inthe shoulder.
Is that, what a typicalrecommendation could be?
Yeah.
So if we're talking about,trying to minimize reaching,
yes, it is getting as close toyour like target as possible,
(31:28):
right?
Which is the patient's mouth.
That's another benefit of saddlestools.
So when I'm talking about asaddle stool, it's like it's a
stool, but you also want it tobe positioned pretty high so
that the clinician's hips areabove their knees.
Okay.
What we don't want is to besitting in like a regular stool
with the legs jetting out infront of us because those legs
(31:51):
are getting in the way.
We cannot get close to ourpatient chair if our legs are in
the way.
Yeah.
So we need those legs pointeddown towards the floor, which is
what you get on a saddle, andthen you can get right up on
your patient.
there's something else indentistry call, we're all taught
this in school clock positionsThe patient, everything's
centered around the patient.
(32:12):
Okay.
And then we want to, based offof, if you think of a clock and
your patient being in the middleof that clock, you've got 12
o'clock, which means theclinician is right directly
behind the patient at 12o'clock.
but then we go, depending on ifyou're a righty or a lefty that
(32:32):
dictates your clock position.
I'm a, right-handed clinician,so I'm at nine o'clock.
So we've got 12 o'clock rightbehind the patient, nine
o'clock, which is to the side,and then we've got eight and
seven o'clock, which those Idon't really recommend.
But anyways, we're all taught,this is the issue I have with
school is, Ergonomics are notsomething that's really
(32:54):
standardized, and so some peopleare taught to only.
Work on the teeth from nineo'clock.
And then some people are taughtto work from 12 o'clock or one
o'clock, which may or may not bethe best thing for them,
depending on what clock positionwe're in, dictates how close or
not close we can be to thepatient.
I recommend trying to reallywork from behind the patient at
(33:16):
that 11 to one o'clock position.
That seems to be the best placefor us.
And then if we're off to theside, you wanna make sure that
you're squared up to yourpatient, not like twisting or
doing any of these awkwardmovements.
So there's, it's funny, I talkabout ergonomics.
I think about it all the time.
I'm in dentistry, and it's youdon't realize how much there is
(33:36):
to it until you start having aconversation like this.
And there's a lot to it.
And it's I just realize thatevery now and then.
This is what I think holds manyagonists back from going into
this field because there's muchmore to it.
There is, I have a questionabout a particular type of
chair.
And this is a chair that membersof the Accelerate program we've
talked about.
It's a saddle chair and thenthere's a horizontal arm bar in
(34:00):
the front.
is that a good enoughdescription for you to know what
type of chair I'm referring to?
It sounds like you might betalking about a dental assistant
stool.
They're tough.
The whole point, if you think ofa dental assistant what they're
doing is they're providingsupport for the dentist.
They're off to the side.
A lot of times when they'reassisting the doctor in this
way, their job is to transferinstruments to hand the dentist
(34:23):
what they need, and to also givesuction to the patient.
There's a lot of water that'shappening in the mouth, and we
need to control that withsuction.
So they've got two jobs, but.
The point of that bar supposedlyis to give them support because
oftentimes they're leaningforward because they have to
lean forward to see into themouth.
(34:44):
But that bar, and like Iunderstand maybe it gives
support, but also a lot of timesit's not adjusted correctly and
it's almost this, temptation tohunch over because they've got
something to lean on.
that's not necessarily what it'sfor.
So anyways, one of my big goalsbefore I retire is to completely
(35:04):
redesign the dental assistancestool, into something completely
different because it reallydoesn't promote an upright
healthy posture for dentalassistance.
That's what we have right now.
We try to make it work as bestwe can for dental assistant
stools.
I would love it if everyone useda saddle type seat pan and had a
(35:25):
back rest.
Dental assistants have some ofthe highest rates of low back
pain amongst all of us, and it'sbecause if you look at how a
dental assistant practices,they're hunched over and a lot
of times they're in this fixed,twisted position and trying to
work on the patient and beinglike that for hours a day.
It's just not good for them.
(35:46):
I guess my answer is it's whatwe have.
We're trying to make it work.
Is it the best?
No.
I think that we can come up withsomething better.
We just haven't yet.
When you are working with,dental assistants and dental,
hygienists and dentists andorthos.
I wanted to dive into a littlebit more about, the role of
(36:07):
behavior change.
And if you have noticed thatyour suggestions of getting up
or working with a certainposture, if that has been more
valuable than buying themexpensive equipment or the
chairs, It is tough becauseeveryone's different.
Some people, they can have greatbody habits, like they're not
(36:30):
reaching, they're not twisting,they're very aware of what
they're doing, but their loopssuck because they're doing this.
And so it's this person,literally all they need is a
pair of ergonomic loops, andthey're gonna be great.
This person over here maybe hasthe ergonomic loops in the
saddle chair and all of thesethings, and yet they're still
reaching, they're doing allthese crazy things.
(36:51):
They're reaching forward,they're twisting, they don't
have things organized correctly.
So that's more of a behaviorchange.
And honestly, everyone'sdifferent, but you can figure
out pretty quickly is this moreof a habit change type person or
does this person just need aproduct that will better support
them?
Because there's some cliniciansthat are, I'm almost like, you
don't need me.
You just need a better pair ofloops and you're gonna be fine.
(37:12):
So it just depends.
Yeah.
That is so brilliant.
But they do need you to makethat recommendation, otherwise
they would've never seen that.
And with the habits too.
That's so huge.
'cause I've worked with peoplethat, they've got the ergonomic
loops, which is great, butbecause their operatory or
operatory is like the room thatwe're working in, because it's
not organized in the right way.
(37:33):
They're doing this full armreach hundreds of times, maybe
thousands of times at the end ofthe day.
Or they're doing a cross bodyreach constantly because they're
trying to grab things.
So some of it is likeorganization too.
That's a whole nother layer ofergonomics as well.
So I think that rolls into mynext question.
do you provide any education orresources or coaching
(37:55):
specifically for ergonomicsconsultants who wanna learn more
about getting into this type ofservice?
Yeah, I had mentioned earlier,there is no ergonomic dental
certification.
I do think that's somethingthat's needed.
And I'm not the only one thattalks about ergonomics and
dentistry.
There's a few of us, but notnearly enough.
(38:16):
So part of my five year plan, Iwould love to create at least
something to give somebackground to people who can
then start helping more dentalclinicians because we need a lot
of help.
Short answer, no, there isn'tanything that exists now to my
knowledge at least.
And, it is on my list of thingsto do in the future.
(38:37):
We'll keep an eye out for thatfor sure.
And I know from this.
Podcast episode that there'sgonna be some people who hungry
to get information from you.
So you are probably gonna getmore followers or more requests
from, ergonomists because thisis very much a hot topic.
It really is a hot topic.
As we roll into the end of thisepisode, I wanted to touch base
(39:00):
on just the pitching becausethere's a language to this that
you are hinting to for theduration of this episode.
And is there any simple advicethat you would give to someone
who wants to pitch ergonomicservices to a dental or an ortho
practice?
I think too, and by the way, Iwanted to mention, if anyone
(39:21):
wants to contact me, ask me anyquestions, please feel free.
I'm on social media, I've myemail, whatever.
I'm happy to help you.
But I think for dentalclinicians, meeting them where
they're at, which is most ofthem are in pain.
Letting people know that a lotof dental clinicians are in
pain, however, it does not haveto be that way.
Providing information on thebenefits to them.
(39:45):
Not going home exhausted at theend of the day, not having to
cancel your day because yourneck or your back is out again,
especially for practice owners,a lot of this is talking to the
people who own the practice andtheir language is money.
And so if we're having to cancelpatients because someone's
injured, that's lost money forthat day.
Investing in ergonomic trainingwill help reduce those loss
(40:09):
days, which increases revenue,but also.
A lot of dental clinicians are,in pain.
They're burnt out, they'retired.
investing in something like thiswill help them not be tired and
burnt out.
But also as a practice ownerbringing this service to your
team, it will show them that youcare about them, you care about
(40:31):
their wellbeing, and you'reinvesting in this training so
that they feel better.
And that's also goes a long wayfor morale and the feel goods
that we all like.
Those are such worthwhileangles, and it connects with the
really important, if we canconnect on the dollar value,
then we can also connect on themorale and more of the soft
elements as well and bring in awhole holistic picture.
(40:53):
And right now too, we're havinga huge staffing crisis in
dentistry where it's very hardto find.
Team members, you wanna takecare of those team members that
you have.
If they leave you or have toleave because of surgery some of
these operatories that are outthere are, not ergonomic at all,
and they are hurting people.
(41:13):
And so if you have someonethat's leaving because of that,
it's gonna be tough for you tofind someone.
So we wanna maintain our team.
It's almost like looking at yourteam as like equipment that we
need to maintain.
That's a harsh way to look atit, but we do need to maintain
them.
So it's much easier to maintainit versus starting over and
trying to find someone to fill aspot because someone's left.
(41:35):
Stephanie, I wanna thank you somuch for spending your.
Time with us today and sharingyour hard earned expertise with
the listeners of this podcast.
Accelerate the business ofergonomics helps healthcare
professionals building their ownthriving ergonomic service
business, and it's opening forenrollment soon.
(41:55):
You can register now just bygoing to ergonomics help.com/biz
to be the first notified once weopen up the doors to accelerate
so that you too can tap into thestrategies to build, attract
customers, and raise your incomewith your own ergonomic
services.
Join the notification list toget the processes, the
(42:17):
resources, and your futuremembers you'll work with inside
the program.
You'll be the first to knowabout any brand new free
training that I release, andyou'll be the first in line when
we open up the doors toaccelerate the business of
ergonomics.
Next, all you gotta do is headto ergonomics help.com/biz to
get started now.
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