May 26, 2025 • 37 mins
In today’s episode, I’m joined by David Brodie, a seasoned ergonomist with decades of experience in the public sector and private consulting. We dive into how the ergonomics field has evolved over the years—and what consultants can do to stay relevant and in demand.
David shares practical strategies for adapting your services, building long-term relationships with clients, and navigating the changing landscape of workplace health and safety. Whether you're just getting started or you're looking to future-proof your ergonomics business, this conversation is packed with insights.
- What’s changed (and stayed the same) in ergonomics
- How to position yourself as a go-to expert
- Why flexibility and creativity are essential for growth
- Advice for newer consultants building their network and brand
This is a must-listen for anyone working in (or curious about) the business side of ergonomics.
👤 Connect with David Brodie:
LinkedIn – David Brodie, Ergonomist
Are you a healthcare professional curious about how office ergonomics assessments could fit into your services? I’ve got you covered with some valuable (and free!) resources at www.ergonomicshelp.com/free-training.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Darcie J's video recordin (00:00):
Today on the show I'm interviewing
David Brodie who shares hishard-earned insights from his
25+ year ergonomicscareer—covering mentorship, soft
skills, and the future of thefield with tech, data, and AI.
You'll get all this and more intoday's episode.
Speaker (00:18):
Welcome to the Business of Ergonomics podcast.
I'm your host, Darcy Jeremy.
I'm a board certifiedprofessional agonist with over
15 years of experiencedelivering ergonomics programs
to employers of all differenttypes.
In this podcast, I share whatother healthcare professionals
are already doing and being withergonomics assessments.
(00:42):
And how to land those clientsthat you dream of.
Without further ado, let's jumpinto this episode right now.
Darcie J's video recordin (00:50):
David is currently the North American
Ergonomists lead at Cargill,where he leads ergonomic
strategy across a wide range ofindustrial settings, focusing on
injury prevention, riskreduction, and innovation.
Not only that, David's pastincludes roles with the
government of Manitoba AtlasErgonomics and the Ergonomics
(01:10):
Center of North Carolina.
David has been the programco-chair of the National
Ergonomics Conference for nearlya decade, playing a key role in
shaping the industry's biggestevents.
David's a graduate of theUniversity of Waterloo up here
in Canada.
He brings a deep, practicalperspective on where our
professional has been on whereit's going.
(01:31):
So without further ado, let'sdive into this interview with
David, and you can hear how hisexperience has shaped his
approach to ergonomics, whatthat means to the ergonomics
industry, and what ergonomistsneed to thrive.
You're gonna get so much valuewhether you are new to
ergonomics or if you've been inthis field for many years.
Audio Only - All Partici (01:54):
David, welcome to the Business of
Ergonomics podacast.
Let's start at the beginning.
what are some defining momentsabout your career thus far?
The starting point was theUniversity of Waterloo, so I
went there for a kinesiologydegree and didn't even know what
ergonomics was.
But I was very lucky when Iwent to Waterloo that we had Bob
(02:15):
Norman, Richard Wells, StuMcGill.
Those were the three bigprofessors biomechanics at the
time, and they're all activelyinvolved in ergonomics research.
So it was like kin 1 0 1 withDr.
Norman to basically you startlearning about ergonomics and
you start hearing more and moreabout it.
And I also was very lucky thatwhile I was in my first year,
(02:38):
they created the ergonomicsoption.
Now, there was a lot of folksthat went through kinesiology,
went through Waterloo and.
Had amazing careers inergonomics.
that was timing when theyactually created that program.
So all of a sudden our entireeducational focus was on
ergonomics.
There was, I think, six oreight of us.
And we're talking 1990.
A few of 'em I still am incontact with whether they're in
(03:01):
Canada or us working as well.
that's how I got into it.
I didn't know, and honestly,from a, career point, once they
created that and set it as anopportunity, I looked at that
said, that's a direction thatgives me everything I'm
interested in from a kinesiologyperspective and allows me to
take it directly to a workplace,which is what I wanted to do.
(03:21):
Was it.
Almost an immediately knownfact that ergonomics was going
to be the career path for youonce I started thinking about
it.
Because going in, year one, youdon't know.
it really is a splitting pointin the university career to say,
do I want to go into a clinicalapproach?
Am I using this as a pre-meddegree?
(03:41):
Am I gonna go into research orteaching type of thing?
So there's a lot ofopportunities.
But honestly, between Dr.
Norman and Stu McGill, you geta few people like that talking
to you and teaching you aboutwhat ergonomics is and what the
focus is of their research.
It just created an interest.
And you started hearing aboutsome of the folks that are out
there working.
(04:02):
Like Allison Stevens, who's outthere now.
Who's been through it all withFord and now is at Fanshaw
College.
These were the people you werehearing about back then about
what careers are possible.
So that just turned into, thatsounds like an awesome career.
What an opportunity to startwith those greats, because if
any of our listeners are awareof Richard Wells or McGill or
(04:25):
Norman, these are folks that arebeing the thought leaders of
the ergonomics field for thepast 20 or 30 years.
These are big names, exactly.
And how that experienceimmediately would've just shaped
the career of you.
So that's amazing.
Did you do co-op back then?
Several of 'em were with CanadaPost.
So those were some greatopportunities to work with them.
They had a excellent ergonomicsprogram.
(04:46):
They were bringing people inevery term.
So they were using, universityof Waterloo students on a
regular basis.
I got to work at a pulp andpaper mill just outside of where
I grew up in Niagara Falls.
So that was a great experienceand working with a doctor there.
So that got me connected to OCHealth and their needs.
So that again, gave me a greatinsight, and someone who is very
(05:07):
focused on ergonomics.
From a doctor's perspective.
So those were a couple of themain ones I worked at.
I think I worked for theDepartment of Labor, actually
for one work term as well.
That's really great.
And marrying that occupationalside to ergonomics right from
the get go would really steerthe direction in your career.
So speaking of career, you'veworked in government corporate
(05:28):
ergonomics.
Where do you see the lessonsfrom that have stuck to you?
I think, especially whenyou're, going back to, the
government where I worked forthe province of Manitoba.
Yeah.
Purely we were consultative, Soit was, we would go out and
help workplaces.
We were essentially aconsulting group, that helped
(05:48):
workplaces, figure out theirergonomics challenges and give
them free advice, free analyses,everything to help them out.
Through to my consulting time,which was, six years at the
University of North Carolinaalso with Atlas, injury
Prevention Services.
I had about 11, 12 years ofconsulting time in there too.
(06:09):
I think one of the things thatyou learn is that.
you're always going into newworkplaces and always trying to
figure out how do I applyergonomics into these areas?
And I think the key thing Ilearned early on is that you
stick with your expertise.
you walk in each case toprovide that expertise and your
job is to learn that businesseach time.
(06:30):
if you put the right time in.
To learn the business, to learnhow that company works, how
their culture works, you canapply your knowledge anywhere.
So it takes away a fear ofwalking into all these new
places and saying, can I help?
Are they too high tech?
Are they too low tech?
what's the challenges?
If you follow the process ofergonomics, if you implement
(06:52):
your knowledge in the right way.
You can figure it out eachtime.
There's been plenty of timeswhere I walked in and, I knew
nothing.
obviously everybody in thatplant knows more than I do about
what they do.
But they didn't bring me To runtheir plan.
They me there to work with themto make something better.
So you have to figure out tojust be that expert in that way
(07:15):
and provide that knowledge.
what I'm hearing is thatalthough the hard skills are
important for ergonomics, theycan only take you so far because
you are.
Working with these companiesand you're not quite sure what
you're gonna see until you getto the shop floor.
So having those soft skills andcommunication and flexibility
would you say that would be atequal merit or would you say
(07:37):
there would be a discrepancybetween the hard skills and the
soft skills there?
I'd say it's pretty close, tobe honest.
Most of the time what you'retrying to do as well is explain
your knowledge and explain howyou're trying to evaluate their
risk, what needs to be done tomake the workplace better.
And you can't walk in and sayyou're doing it wrong and you
have to do this.
So everything is about propercommunication, proper
(08:00):
interaction with that team,figuring out how to communicate
that information.
one of the things you also haveto do is manage your ego don't
walk in thinking you're gonnafix everything for them.
you have to push them in theright direction.
Know where you're trying to getthem to, but not talk down to
people about how things arebeing done now.
And really, you're trying tohelp them get better.
(08:20):
And I think when you approachAnybody in that sense, they're
gonna be much more receptive tothe information.
And then we have to take thejargon out of it.
You have to figure out how todo your science in the
background, do your technicalwork, and then bring it to your
audience at the level they needto be at.
If you're working withengineers and PhDs, then yeah,
they're gonna wanna see all thedata.
(08:40):
If you're working with theoperational team and employee.
joint health and safetycommittees, you have to present
it in a different way and makeeverything accessible to them.
So it's thinking through, andthat's why, as you said, those
soft skills of communicating areprobably the key between who's
gonna be good at it and who'sgonna have, a challenge really
communicating.
And I wanna tie that into whereyou first started because you
(09:03):
mentioned that you were workingwith an occupational health,
team, whether that was a doctoror other clinic.
Yep.
And communicating with thoseand having the soft skills to be
able to draw out the rightinformation.
Then to share that with theworkplace and then to share it
with the worker, and then bringthe hard skills to identify
where the ergonomics risks areand if you are doing a return to
(09:25):
work, how to best work withthat.
So I think you're reallyhighlighting something that is a
good reminder for ourlisteners.
Even myself that ourcommunication skills can really
bridge the gap between whereworkplaces are and where they
need to be.
'cause ergonomics is stillkinda like this mystical thing I
find, unfortunately.
I think that's part of ourchallenge as practitioners, to,
(09:48):
get better and better atcommunicating it and taking.
what we know and finding betterways to explain it and making
sure it hits the right people inthe right way.
And to your point about beingreturn to work, that
communication with employees,with the person doing the job,
and creating that understandingof they're the ones that are
working eight, 12 hours a day ormore in some cases, and not
(10:11):
trying to walk in and tell themhow to do their job better.
Help understand what theirconcerns are, combine that with
the knowledge of the risks thatyou're seeing and trying to work
through to a solution that willbe acceptable.
work with person who's doingthe job and help them understand
it and get them to, accept achange, that's your first step.
(10:32):
Now you want do that honestly,before you're saying I need to
be able to communicate to theCEO or the plant manager.
make sure you can explain it tothe person who's gonna use it
first.
If you're good at that, thenyou'll be able to take that
success and that ability tocommunicate and take it up the
ladder.
And because you gotta build onthose successes and then show
(10:52):
that general manager or that.
Executive that this is whatyou're capable of doing for the
organization.
If I were to pull back fromwhere you started to where you
are now, and reflecting back toyour career when you were first
starting out, what's the onething that you wish you knew
then?
I think the one thing I wouldsay is that early on in your
(11:14):
career, you feel like you haveto present yourself as more of
an expert than you actually are.
And I think the key is, yougotta have patience and you
gotta have a plan of how youwant to grow as a professional,
not just, going out too earlywith too much ego.
because whether you want toacknowledge it or not, you
(11:34):
probably don't know as much asyou think you do.
When you're first starting.
There's a reason why become acertified agronomist.
You have to have x number ofyears of experience you get
better.
You see it.
Any one of us who's ever workedwith a team or training someone
to do ergonomics within afacility, you can watch the
progression.
Two, three years in, there'slight bulbs that click on and
(11:57):
they get really good at whatthey're doing.
We're the same way.
It's honestly, until you'vebeen out there and been through
enough evaluations and enoughtypes of work, different
industries, differentbusinesses, you gotta see how
ergonomics gets applied in somany places.
And when you get to that point,the point where I felt like I.
Truly had maybe the experienceto say that you might qualify as
(12:19):
an expert.
It is probably almost 10 yearsin before I got to that point.
And some of it gets into thesetimes where whether you're
presenting at a conference,talking to other colleagues,
you're being grilled in ameeting.
And you're able to answer thosequestions with ease and the
information's automaticallythere.
That realization, thatself-realization that you've
(12:40):
reached that point is when youstart to think, maybe I do, and
you gotta make sure you're notjust throwing things off the
cuff, but we are truly, talkingabout things at the right level.
When you said that, I wasimmediately reminded of that
10,000 plus hours of.
Investment you could say, tobecome that expert.
(13:02):
Yes, absolutely.
So not only that's so clear forus as agonist because I also
have noticed that too, 10 yearsin the field, then I feel a lot
better than two years in thefield, no matter what type of
assessments I've beenexperienced.
when you can walk into aworkplace, a new place, anything
with, complete confidence inyour knowledge of how to walk
(13:24):
into that, what your process isgonna be, how are you gonna work
through problems, withoutsaying, oh, I better plan for
two weeks and do all thesethings to get ready for it.
It's the more it becomesingrained into how you do what
you do, the more you know thatyour knowledge base is at a good
level.
Let's talk about theprofessional development you
mentioned as a professional.
Definitely need to get to that10,000 hours or 10 years,
(13:46):
however you wanna look at that.
And I wanna tie in this idea ofergonomics conferences because
that could be a factor in anindividuals professional
development.
How does something likeconferences tie into that?
can you give us a bit ofbackground for the Ergo Expo in
particular?
There are a handful ofergonomics conferences that
happen in North America.
There's ACE in Canada that'sbeen around for decades.
(14:08):
The Human Factors and ErgonomicSociety here in the US is
another academic based one.
The Applied Ergonomicsconference, coming out of the.
Applied Ergonomic Society.
Those are kind of cores.
Academic based ones orprofessional based ones.
applied ergo and national ergo.
were the cornerstones of theconferences that happened in
(14:28):
North America on an annualbasis.
safety professionals, whetherit's the National Safety
Counselor or A SSP, have eventswith some ergo content that's
designed to help the safetyprofessionals build themselves.
But it's not a core.
These other conferences areentirely about human factors and
ergonomics.
What I was looked at with ErgoExpo was it had its niche.
(14:50):
So again, HFES is primarilyacademic.
ACE is a com.
I've always loved Ace and thatis probably one of the best
combination of academic andapplied conferences out there.
It's always well run.
I missed it for years, bymoving down here to the us.
I've been there a couple times.
(15:10):
I was there early on when I wasin at Waterloo, so I was
involved in it and did someinitial presentations way back
in, late nineties type of thing.
Before I moved here, nationalergo always fit in for me as an
event that had a differentapproach in a curriculum.
They had longer sessions, and Ialways said that Ergo Expo was
(15:31):
the teaching.
Conference, it had an hour longsessions, it had workshops, it
had things that was basicallytrying to teach people who were
trying to get into ergonomics.
so there was always contentthat was higher level so that
people who were agonists or moreadvanced, in their, careers
from a physical therapy,occupational therapy
perspective, that they couldalways come and learn.
(15:53):
Maybe, newer technologies,newer information.
There was always content thattried to help people grow and
bring people in.
The other events are likeapplied.
Ergo is an excellent event forpractitioners because it gives
case studies, short burst, lotsof great information, lots of
interaction of colleagues typeof thing, that are purely in
(16:14):
ergonomics.
So I always said there was abalance that in the spring you
always had applied ergonomics.
In the fall, you always hadnational ergo, and they both
gave this balance to the year ofhow do we get information out
about ergonomics to everybodywho's doing it out there type of
thing.
unfortunately as of, thisJanuary the National Ergo event
(16:35):
was shut down last year was thelast year of that event.
In its current in-personfashion, there is a chance
something may come back, but Ihave.
No direct information aboutwhat that could look like.
were you involved in any of theplanning boards for any of
those organizations?
I was involved, with nationalergo I was co-chair for close to
(16:57):
10 years.
I was brought on, can'tremember which year it was at
this point.
The idea at the time was toincrease the industrial content,
to increase the technicalcontent, of what was presented
on an annual basis.
we had a heavy focus on officeergonomics, which was fine, but
it wasn't balanced.
And we needed to add more ofthe pure assessment approaches,
(17:20):
get more case studies fromindustries, bring in more
technology.
Along with, Rachel, Michael,the two of us were brought in to
basically increase that.
I think anybody that went tothe event over the last decade
would've seen that the contentshifted and we had, honestly,
the last few years were probablythe most well-balanced,
(17:40):
developed.
The type of content coming in,was excellent.
I thoroughly enjoyed.
I went to go see a bunch ofpeople I'd never seen talk
before, and I said that wasprobably one of the best events
that I'd gone to.
Way to go off on a high note inregards to that.
Why do you think conferenceslike Nashville orgo Expo
resonates so deeply with otherergonomics professionals?
(18:03):
We need to get out of our ownboxes.
Yeah.
regardless of what you do, ifyou're a consultant, you have
your process and how you do itall the time.
If you are in a company, youhave that culture and you have a
set group of people you workwith all the time.
If we live in our bubbles weonly grow so far.
So having those events to gomeet face to face.
(18:25):
Sit down with people.
Learn from people is critical.
the idea that conferences wouldgo away, and, they die off and
we just go to virtual things, itwon't work.
We won't grow the same.
Anybody who goes to thoseevents always comes back and
says, yes.
There was a lot of, I've tookaway a few great talks.
But then 50% of my time andvalue was talking to people and
(18:48):
learning from others and makingconnections.
most of the people that I workwith now are people that have
spoken at events that I've metthrough conferences and met
through different boards I'vebeen on, and made that
connection of we have commoninterests and things we wanna
work on and let's stay connectedabout it.
So It's a critical part of mycareer to have been involved in
(19:09):
those, to have volunteered inall those things.
volunteered for, the BCPE, Iwas part of that as a director
and then president for a coupleyears, being involved with A SSP
and the ergonomics practicespecialty.
Huge involvement there, andit's doing incredibly well.
At this point.
They've had some greatmanagement over the last few
years Working with the MSDsolutions lab and the team there
(19:31):
at the National Safety Council.
huge value of being involvedwith all these people and giving
you insights beyond your owncompany.
Absolutely.
I am listening to this andfirst thing I'm thinking that I
wanna encourage all my listenersto get into some sort of
volunteer role or even at leastgo to a conference.
That's something I personallyneed to make a priority because
(19:54):
you're convincing me that thisis a step towards just being a
fully holistic To be aware ofwhat your blind spots could be
and incorporate it to just bringup your game and as an
industry.
We can definitely benefit fromthis because there's so much we
can be doing for our cities andarea is with any sort of
(20:16):
ergonomics assistance and thecompanies that we work for as
well, of course.
And I really appreciate yousharing this stuff, David, like
you are bringing so muchperspective to the listeners of
this podcast.
And I wanted to ask you, inaddition to the conferences that
you mentioned.
Where do you think that thefield of ergonomics is headed in
(20:38):
the next five to 10 years?
I think there's so muchadvancement in technology right
now, so I think people are stilltrying to figure out how much
will technology give us thevalue we hope it does.
In other words, anybody who'sbeen doing ergonomics for a long
time.
There's only been so manydifferent ways we can evaluate
risk, and most of it has been,talking to people, video camera
(20:59):
four, gauge the basic tools ofthe trade type of thing.
And understanding morecumulative exposures, more
detail of exposures.
there hasn't been a ton ofresearch yet and enough
knowledge to say what do we dowith it all, there's a lot of
information that we may be ableto collect that, we honestly
don't have a completeunderstanding of what it's gonna
tell us yet.
So I think the future is whatwill technology help us to be
(21:24):
more efficient, be more accuratein what we're doing to make it
more accessible to people.
How do we deal with that,manage that, make sure we don't
adopt things that are just shinyversus truly valuable.
But that's the skillset of anto understand the process and
use those skills to evaluate thevalue of something.
So we have to be critical ofeverything that comes in the
(21:44):
door be open to it.
And saying, okay, we gotta trythese things out.
I think there's a lot ofpotential value on what AI can
do for us for processing data,understanding information,
feeding solutions to teams moreeasily.
pulling data in that we used tobe, what's part of your
consulting project?
I gotta go on the internet.
Find all these differentsolutions and cut and paste
(22:07):
vendor information, do all thisstuff, and now you know, the
reality is you can ask a coupleof questions and a lot of that
information could be processedin a matter of minutes.
So how we're able to do thatand harness it I've seen some
great things for companies thatare doing incident
investigations and using AI to.
Monitor the quality of the workthat's going into
(22:28):
investigations to improve thedata that's going into all these
massive systems about thedifferent incidences that are
happening in companies so thatwe can get better at it.
And then of course, can the AIhelp us process all of that
information to look for trends.
Look for things that will helpus make good data-driven
decisions.
So there's a lot.
(22:49):
My guess is probably over thenext five to 10 years, we're
gonna see new tools, new ways oflooking at risk, new ways of
gathering information, companiesare gonna work out the best way
to use this technology and AIto, evolve how we look at
ergonomics and health and safetyas a whole.
See, and I love yourperspective when you are
highlighting that when we gointo a shop floor, we're not
(23:13):
going to be aware of what wesee.
So it's pretty much thinking onour feet, and you're marrying
that with the adoption of AIthat we're not sure where it's
gonna take us.
However, there may be someopportunities for us as a
profession Coming into theprofession right now, more
knowledge about data analytics,more knowledge about ai and
being able to use that and bringit into what you're doing,
(23:35):
that's what people are gonna belooking for is a skillset.
People are gonna expect you tohave better data knowledge and
better data analytics to presentyourself at a higher level.
Now, considering this, when youare mapping out where you
perhaps consider the educationand professional development of
current ergonomists and.
(23:57):
Whether it's through the BCPEor university or college level
or courses that are out therethat teaches a specific part of
ergonomics, what do you thinkwould be useful aspects or
changes that would need tohappen here to ensure that these
folks are bringing theirpotential to the ergonomics
(24:17):
field in 2025 and beyond?
I think, now, when I was inuniversity, I hated statistics.
That was one of my leastfavorite courses.
But when you looked at courseson, research design, the bigger
picture view thought process.
And I think that's where thewhole aspect of being a data
analyst, is a skillset thathonestly, for the person who's
not gonna be a researcher.
(24:38):
Understanding the differentlevels of analytics,
understanding how you're gonnabe able to use data to a higher
level is gonna be, a more usefulskillset about how you're gonna
work within a company.
Because in many cases, ifyou're trying to evaluate risk,
we're gonna be getting to thepoints where you're starting to
pull in massive amounts of datafrom different sources Looking
(24:59):
at cumulative information, andyou're gonna need to understand
how to analyze that data andbuild out, analytics to
basically, understand it better,or at least be able to talk to
the right people at the rightlevel to build out those
equations and the process typeof thing.
So the core will always bethere.
you still better know yourbiomechanics, physiology,
(25:19):
psychology, sociology,everything, all that stuff will
not go away.
That's what gives you theexpertise to understand what's
going on.
But then once you startmeasuring all those things, that
skillset on this side is where,we need to grow.
Interesting.
And that ties back to.
Using this data to analyze someperhaps new or interesting ways
(25:43):
to look at the data.
Yes.
And getting as much informationthat we've ever had with the
new technology coming out andtying with AI so that I am
resonating with that andstatistics and the new era,
break something down orelaborate on some aspects
relevant to us, still needs tohave a thoughtful component from
an agonist that reallyunderstands statistics.
(26:05):
Honestly, sometimes when youlook at, how some of the data is
being collected out there andsome of the technology vendors,
there are some gaps in some ofthose companies where they don't
have ergonomics or biomechanicsor physiology expertise.
So sometimes if you don't havethe right people to ask the
right questions then you're justprocessing data blindly to see
(26:26):
what trends can I find.
Versus trying to connect dotson relevant pieces of data to
say this is how we can predictrisk.
So there's a balance that'llneed to occur out there and I
think the more we do that, thebetter.
We'll see that technology beprobably in the next couple
years.
This is a collective sense ofrelief.
I am feeling for all thelisteners on this podcast no, we
(26:48):
are not getting rid ofagonists.
If anything, it could be, moreimportant in a different data
analysis, strategy perspectivethan ever before.
We're looking at theapplication and, impact of the
ergonomics.
doing that.
But technology is gonna take alittle bit of that skill set
away and it's a pro and a con inthat you're gonna move direct
(27:10):
to technology for some of thenewer folks out there, they're
gonna go straight to computervision, say, this is how I'm
gonna evaluate.
Or they'll go to sensors andsay, this is what I'm gonna use.
So there might be a little bitof a gap in skillset of being
able to validate that what thisis telling you is good.
But, the quality of the work.
You're not gonna be spendingyour time out in the field doing
(27:30):
all the grunt work all thetime.
Now you're shifting yourself toa data oriented, process and
being able to use your knowledgeof the human body to process
that and give recommendations toimprove.
Let's talk about mentorship.
And your thoughts on mentorshipand ergonomics, how important
has this been for you in thedevelopment of your career?
(27:51):
I, to be honest, I've never hada direct mentor.
But I've always been a sponge.
I saw people that I respectedhow they were doing what they
were doing and tried to learnfrom 'em.
And, going back to PeterBudnick with Ergo Web way back.
And his involvement with theBCPE.
I remember I sent him a noteone time and said how do I help,
how do I get involved with BCP?
In other words, how do I buildmyself to have a career like
(28:14):
yours in some way?
Or be someone who has your typeof expertise.
And, whether it's someone thatwas in ergonomics or someone
that was a manager that had acertain way of how they
interacted with people and howthey explain things.
A couple of my bosses that I'vehad over time about how
analytical they were, how theyused information, how they
pushed me, and it was like it'sabout learning from all those
(28:35):
people.
And now, over the last coupleyears, I started interacting
with someone like Chris Reedover at Boeing and I'd be like,
I like the way he's doing whathe's doing.
How do I take Cargill in thatdirection?
How do I build a program thatcould be like his, or, I see a
friend of mine, Ryan over atGeneral Motors and say, I like
what they're doing withtechnology.
How could I build, I can't doexactly what they're doing.
(28:57):
How could I be like that typeof thing.
And it's like you learn fromsome people and things that make
a lot of sense to you.
And that's again, circling backto the conferences and the
interactions.
I met Chris Reed more directlyby getting involved with STM.
I met Ryan through gettinginvolved with the, automotive
exoskeleton group these arepeople that we were out there
(29:18):
doing ergo together but I neverwould've directly run into these
folks before and had personalinteractions and learned from
them.
A lot of times with all thatvolunteer it's like shoving
yourself into situations whereyou get to interact with those
people and you find out that,We're all here, we're all trying
to do the same thing, and allthose people will talk to you.
(29:38):
will always take time to talkto someone if they, comes up and
I'd like to learn or understanda little bit more about what
you're doing, Full circle momentof the value of going to
conferences and tying that inwith the continuous improvement
of your career and where thepotential is.
Yeah.
So if one thing that someonetakes away from our conversation
(29:59):
today, I think it's gonna bethe value of getting involved in
the ergonomics community so youcan uplevel your game.
Is that fair?
Very fair.
I'll give one other piece ofthat too is that, there's a lot
of times when you're in themiddle of what your job is and
having things that give yousomething else to do and draw
your knowledge in a differentway and challenge you in a
(30:20):
different way.
It's gonna balance out youryear.
It may feel like a little extrawork, but the reality is from a
mental perspective.
Going and doing somethingdifferent, contributing to
something out, you're gonna gainvalue from that experience.
And it gives you a break frombeing only focused on one thing.
And that expansion ofknowledge, you'll constantly
(30:41):
bring that into what you do.
So it just makes, a very wellbalanced career by doing more
The reality too is that there'sa lot of things about how we can
get better ergonomics andhealth and safety.
That if we don't go out andshare that information, it's
gonna take a much longer for alot of us to get better.
So the more you share it,whether it's in podcasts like
(31:03):
this, whether it's in, onlineresources.
The broader ways to get it outthere, or again, sharing it at
conferences where you can say,this is what we did and it
works.
This is what we did and itdidn't work.
Sometimes you can talk aboutthings that didn't work very
well, so people can learn fromour mistakes too.
I am reminded of a reallyfamous statement that really
(31:24):
resonates with me, and it's thata rising tide lifts all ships
That's where I really feel likeyour perspective of the
ergonomics industry, if thatcould be coined in a term,
something like that, which isjust so refreshing.
So kudos to you.
Thank you.
I got some colleagues who say Italk too much sometimes, I'm
like sometimes someone needs tosay something I have some sort
(31:47):
of perspective that is betterthan anything else.
But this is what I know andthis is what we've been through.
ever since I've been withCargill, I have the luxury of
working for a company with a lotof resources and support in the
area of what we're doing.
So we're doing a lot of thingsthat.
If we can help other people outby sharing, I'll do it.
Brilliant.
I have a few more questions toask and these are gonna be more
of like a lightning round if Ido say so myself.
(32:10):
Okay.
And I know that people aregonna love to hear your
responses to this.
So if you were to say, favoriteergonomics, resource or book
that you still go to, is thereone resource or book?
Kodak.
Kodak?
Yeah.
Kodak, you can almost still usethe specs that come out of
there in every other resource.
So like a core book, with tonsof information, would be Kodak,
(32:32):
occupational ergonomics, was theother one that, was a key
resource early on.
Humor.
Just find ways to be relaxed.
Yes.
humble humor and humility areprobably the two things, that
will open yourself up to a lotof people.
Best piece of advice thatyou've ever received?
It was just, talking in one ofour meetings last week and,
(32:53):
probably the one bit of advicethat I got early on.
From, Dr.
Norman in Kin 1 0 1 was when Ianswered a question that he
posed to the students and helistened to the answer and he
just looked at me dead in theeyes and said, you can do better
than that.
And when Dr.
Norman stares you in the eyeslike that and gives you those
words, it hits the student.
(33:14):
You're a year one student, andthat became a motto.
For the next five years how doyou do better?
What's your go-to way to staycurrent in the field?
Sign up for lots of, online,webinars, information, going
into LinkedIn, and making sureI'm following Resources that
provide a lot of information.
There's some good folks outthere that share research that I
(33:35):
may not automatically look for,But just keeping your, knowing
what you need to keep your awareof and making sure you are
getting resources fed to you,regularly, especially things
that are easily digestible sothat you're not trying to spend
hours of reading type of thing.
What would you say the mostexciting innovation in the
ergonomics field right now is?
(33:56):
I'm interested, we're usingcomputer vision.
I think it has a lot ofpotential.
I think it's gonna probablygrow a ton over the next couple
years to be better and better atwhat it is.
I think that is gonna makevisualization, very strong for a
lot of people.
And the reason I think it'sexciting is that it brings
ergonomics to everybody thatinstead of doing a calculation
(34:19):
and showing a graph andeverything, you now have
something that is visual thatyou can show to an operations
person, to an employee directlyafter they've done their task to
say, this is what I'm trying tofix.
But now you can show them in avery, I'm trying to change this.
How do we do that?
So it's a communication tool.
So to me there's a lot ofpotential there.
'cause it's so simple to useand it can provide a really good
(34:42):
communication.
It can demystify ergo for a lotof people.
So for me, that's the current,I think AI is gonna be the next
one, I'll be honest, I know AIas well as I know statistics
right now, so I got a lot oflearning to do or I have to work
with someone who is gonna begood at it and we'll work
together.
I can see a tag team coming outhere, David and there's the
(35:04):
latest, greatest informationcoming from you with AI or
something like that in thefuture.
we just received a researchgrant from the National Safety
Council.
Not we as in Cargill, butUniversity of Waterloo, along
with partnering with Cargill todo some, research on cumulative
exposure and injury predictive,models Probably in the next 18
(35:24):
to 24 months, we'll start to seea lot of work that we've been
doing with sensor technology tosee, how much more we can do
with the data we have.
So bringing in some, like Isaid, very smart people.
I provide the big picture viewand the data and the questions
and we work together to buildsomething really good.
There are some great resourcesthat are gonna be coming up.
Year and a half, two years fromnow So all this stuff with the
(35:47):
future of ergonomics.
David, thank you so much foryour time today to sharing your
insights.
And I totally agree thateverything that you talked about
resonated with me with theconferences and mentorship and
by upleveling and continuoussuccess of our careers.
No.
The last thing that was comingto mind is as everything comes
(36:08):
full circle is like maybe opento make my way up to Quebec City
and this fall to go to the ACEconference.
And you're not that far away inPEI, it's my list.
It really is.
Yeah, it is.
I'm hoping, be able to make itout there.
Yeah.
And continue to be involved inAce.
my fall has opened up, so I'mhoping to add Ace as a new,
excellent, replacement for theErgo Expo.
(36:30):
Brilliant.
So that's the Association ofCanadian Agonists Hopping, like
the first week of October.
Of 2025 in Quebec City.
A beautiful place to go.
One place in Canada, I haven'tbeen yet.
It would be a wonderfulcombination of, location and
people.
Speaker (36:45):
So I got so much out of this interview you guys.
If you wanna connect withDavid, I invite you to connect
with him on LinkedIn.
You can check him out in theshow notes, leave him a message
If you are an ergonomicsconsultant.
And you want a place to connectwith fellow ergonomics peers,
get time saving resources, andstay up to date with the latest
(37:09):
ergonomics literature.
Then I wanna invite you to signup to the wait list for
Accelerate the Business ofErgonomics.
There you're gonna find someamazing resources
Today on the show I'm interviewing
David Brodie who shares hishard-earned insights from his
25+ year ergonomicscareer—covering mentorship, soft
skills, and the future of thefield with tech, data, and AI.
You'll get all this and more intoday's episode.
Speaker (00:18):
Welcome to the Business of Ergonomics podcast.
I'm your host, Darcy Jeremy.
I'm a board certifiedprofessional agonist with over
15 years of experiencedelivering ergonomics programs
to employers of all differenttypes.
In this podcast, I share whatother healthcare professionals
are already doing and being withergonomics assessments.
(00:42):
And how to land those clientsthat you dream of.
Without further ado, let's jumpinto this episode right now.
Darcie J's video recordin (00:50):
David is currently the North American
Ergonomists lead at Cargill,where he leads ergonomic
strategy across a wide range ofindustrial settings, focusing on
injury prevention, riskreduction, and innovation.
Not only that, David's pastincludes roles with the
government of Manitoba AtlasErgonomics and the Ergonomics
(01:10):
Center of North Carolina.
David has been the programco-chair of the National
Ergonomics Conference for nearlya decade, playing a key role in
shaping the industry's biggestevents.
David's a graduate of theUniversity of Waterloo up here
in Canada.
He brings a deep, practicalperspective on where our
professional has been on whereit's going.
(01:31):
So without further ado, let'sdive into this interview with
David, and you can hear how hisexperience has shaped his
approach to ergonomics, whatthat means to the ergonomics
industry, and what ergonomistsneed to thrive.
You're gonna get so much valuewhether you are new to
ergonomics or if you've been inthis field for many years.
Audio Only - All Partici (01:54):
David, welcome to the Business of
Ergonomics podacast.
Let's start at the beginning.
what are some defining momentsabout your career thus far?
The starting point was theUniversity of Waterloo, so I
went there for a kinesiologydegree and didn't even know what
ergonomics was.
But I was very lucky when Iwent to Waterloo that we had Bob
(02:15):
Norman, Richard Wells, StuMcGill.
Those were the three bigprofessors biomechanics at the
time, and they're all activelyinvolved in ergonomics research.
So it was like kin 1 0 1 withDr.
Norman to basically you startlearning about ergonomics and
you start hearing more and moreabout it.
And I also was very lucky thatwhile I was in my first year,
(02:38):
they created the ergonomicsoption.
Now, there was a lot of folksthat went through kinesiology,
went through Waterloo and.
Had amazing careers inergonomics.
that was timing when theyactually created that program.
So all of a sudden our entireeducational focus was on
ergonomics.
There was, I think, six oreight of us.
And we're talking 1990.
A few of 'em I still am incontact with whether they're in
(03:01):
Canada or us working as well.
that's how I got into it.
I didn't know, and honestly,from a, career point, once they
created that and set it as anopportunity, I looked at that
said, that's a direction thatgives me everything I'm
interested in from a kinesiologyperspective and allows me to
take it directly to a workplace,which is what I wanted to do.
(03:21):
Was it.
Almost an immediately knownfact that ergonomics was going
to be the career path for youonce I started thinking about
it.
Because going in, year one, youdon't know.
it really is a splitting pointin the university career to say,
do I want to go into a clinicalapproach?
Am I using this as a pre-meddegree?
(03:41):
Am I gonna go into research orteaching type of thing?
So there's a lot ofopportunities.
But honestly, between Dr.
Norman and Stu McGill, you geta few people like that talking
to you and teaching you aboutwhat ergonomics is and what the
focus is of their research.
It just created an interest.
And you started hearing aboutsome of the folks that are out
there working.
(04:02):
Like Allison Stevens, who's outthere now.
Who's been through it all withFord and now is at Fanshaw
College.
These were the people you werehearing about back then about
what careers are possible.
So that just turned into, thatsounds like an awesome career.
What an opportunity to startwith those greats, because if
any of our listeners are awareof Richard Wells or McGill or
(04:25):
Norman, these are folks that arebeing the thought leaders of
the ergonomics field for thepast 20 or 30 years.
These are big names, exactly.
And how that experienceimmediately would've just shaped
the career of you.
So that's amazing.
Did you do co-op back then?
Several of 'em were with CanadaPost.
So those were some greatopportunities to work with them.
They had a excellent ergonomicsprogram.
(04:46):
They were bringing people inevery term.
So they were using, universityof Waterloo students on a
regular basis.
I got to work at a pulp andpaper mill just outside of where
I grew up in Niagara Falls.
So that was a great experienceand working with a doctor there.
So that got me connected to OCHealth and their needs.
So that again, gave me a greatinsight, and someone who is very
(05:07):
focused on ergonomics.
From a doctor's perspective.
So those were a couple of themain ones I worked at.
I think I worked for theDepartment of Labor, actually
for one work term as well.
That's really great.
And marrying that occupationalside to ergonomics right from
the get go would really steerthe direction in your career.
So speaking of career, you'veworked in government corporate
(05:28):
ergonomics.
Where do you see the lessonsfrom that have stuck to you?
I think, especially whenyou're, going back to, the
government where I worked forthe province of Manitoba.
Yeah.
Purely we were consultative, Soit was, we would go out and
help workplaces.
We were essentially aconsulting group, that helped
(05:48):
workplaces, figure out theirergonomics challenges and give
them free advice, free analyses,everything to help them out.
Through to my consulting time,which was, six years at the
University of North Carolinaalso with Atlas, injury
Prevention Services.
I had about 11, 12 years ofconsulting time in there too.
(06:09):
I think one of the things thatyou learn is that.
you're always going into newworkplaces and always trying to
figure out how do I applyergonomics into these areas?
And I think the key thing Ilearned early on is that you
stick with your expertise.
you walk in each case toprovide that expertise and your
job is to learn that businesseach time.
(06:30):
if you put the right time in.
To learn the business, to learnhow that company works, how
their culture works, you canapply your knowledge anywhere.
So it takes away a fear ofwalking into all these new
places and saying, can I help?
Are they too high tech?
Are they too low tech?
what's the challenges?
If you follow the process ofergonomics, if you implement
(06:52):
your knowledge in the right way.
You can figure it out eachtime.
There's been plenty of timeswhere I walked in and, I knew
nothing.
obviously everybody in thatplant knows more than I do about
what they do.
But they didn't bring me To runtheir plan.
They me there to work with themto make something better.
So you have to figure out tojust be that expert in that way
(07:15):
and provide that knowledge.
what I'm hearing is thatalthough the hard skills are
important for ergonomics, theycan only take you so far because
you are.
Working with these companiesand you're not quite sure what
you're gonna see until you getto the shop floor.
So having those soft skills andcommunication and flexibility
would you say that would be atequal merit or would you say
(07:37):
there would be a discrepancybetween the hard skills and the
soft skills there?
I'd say it's pretty close, tobe honest.
Most of the time what you'retrying to do as well is explain
your knowledge and explain howyou're trying to evaluate their
risk, what needs to be done tomake the workplace better.
And you can't walk in and sayyou're doing it wrong and you
have to do this.
So everything is about propercommunication, proper
(08:00):
interaction with that team,figuring out how to communicate
that information.
one of the things you also haveto do is manage your ego don't
walk in thinking you're gonnafix everything for them.
you have to push them in theright direction.
Know where you're trying to getthem to, but not talk down to
people about how things arebeing done now.
And really, you're trying tohelp them get better.
(08:20):
And I think when you approachAnybody in that sense, they're
gonna be much more receptive tothe information.
And then we have to take thejargon out of it.
You have to figure out how todo your science in the
background, do your technicalwork, and then bring it to your
audience at the level they needto be at.
If you're working withengineers and PhDs, then yeah,
they're gonna wanna see all thedata.
(08:40):
If you're working with theoperational team and employee.
joint health and safetycommittees, you have to present
it in a different way and makeeverything accessible to them.
So it's thinking through, andthat's why, as you said, those
soft skills of communicating areprobably the key between who's
gonna be good at it and who'sgonna have, a challenge really
communicating.
And I wanna tie that into whereyou first started because you
(09:03):
mentioned that you were workingwith an occupational health,
team, whether that was a doctoror other clinic.
Yep.
And communicating with thoseand having the soft skills to be
able to draw out the rightinformation.
Then to share that with theworkplace and then to share it
with the worker, and then bringthe hard skills to identify
where the ergonomics risks areand if you are doing a return to
(09:25):
work, how to best work withthat.
So I think you're reallyhighlighting something that is a
good reminder for ourlisteners.
Even myself that ourcommunication skills can really
bridge the gap between whereworkplaces are and where they
need to be.
'cause ergonomics is stillkinda like this mystical thing I
find, unfortunately.
I think that's part of ourchallenge as practitioners, to,
(09:48):
get better and better atcommunicating it and taking.
what we know and finding betterways to explain it and making
sure it hits the right people inthe right way.
And to your point about beingreturn to work, that
communication with employees,with the person doing the job,
and creating that understandingof they're the ones that are
working eight, 12 hours a day ormore in some cases, and not
(10:11):
trying to walk in and tell themhow to do their job better.
Help understand what theirconcerns are, combine that with
the knowledge of the risks thatyou're seeing and trying to work
through to a solution that willbe acceptable.
work with person who's doingthe job and help them understand
it and get them to, accept achange, that's your first step.
(10:32):
Now you want do that honestly,before you're saying I need to
be able to communicate to theCEO or the plant manager.
make sure you can explain it tothe person who's gonna use it
first.
If you're good at that, thenyou'll be able to take that
success and that ability tocommunicate and take it up the
ladder.
And because you gotta build onthose successes and then show
(10:52):
that general manager or that.
Executive that this is whatyou're capable of doing for the
organization.
If I were to pull back fromwhere you started to where you
are now, and reflecting back toyour career when you were first
starting out, what's the onething that you wish you knew
then?
I think the one thing I wouldsay is that early on in your
(11:14):
career, you feel like you haveto present yourself as more of
an expert than you actually are.
And I think the key is, yougotta have patience and you
gotta have a plan of how youwant to grow as a professional,
not just, going out too earlywith too much ego.
because whether you want toacknowledge it or not, you
(11:34):
probably don't know as much asyou think you do.
When you're first starting.
There's a reason why become acertified agronomist.
You have to have x number ofyears of experience you get
better.
You see it.
Any one of us who's ever workedwith a team or training someone
to do ergonomics within afacility, you can watch the
progression.
Two, three years in, there'slight bulbs that click on and
(11:57):
they get really good at whatthey're doing.
We're the same way.
It's honestly, until you'vebeen out there and been through
enough evaluations and enoughtypes of work, different
industries, differentbusinesses, you gotta see how
ergonomics gets applied in somany places.
And when you get to that point,the point where I felt like I.
Truly had maybe the experienceto say that you might qualify as
(12:19):
an expert.
It is probably almost 10 yearsin before I got to that point.
And some of it gets into thesetimes where whether you're
presenting at a conference,talking to other colleagues,
you're being grilled in ameeting.
And you're able to answer thosequestions with ease and the
information's automaticallythere.
That realization, thatself-realization that you've
(12:40):
reached that point is when youstart to think, maybe I do, and
you gotta make sure you're notjust throwing things off the
cuff, but we are truly, talkingabout things at the right level.
When you said that, I wasimmediately reminded of that
10,000 plus hours of.
Investment you could say, tobecome that expert.
(13:02):
Yes, absolutely.
So not only that's so clear forus as agonist because I also
have noticed that too, 10 yearsin the field, then I feel a lot
better than two years in thefield, no matter what type of
assessments I've beenexperienced.
when you can walk into aworkplace, a new place, anything
with, complete confidence inyour knowledge of how to walk
(13:24):
into that, what your process isgonna be, how are you gonna work
through problems, withoutsaying, oh, I better plan for
two weeks and do all thesethings to get ready for it.
It's the more it becomesingrained into how you do what
you do, the more you know thatyour knowledge base is at a good
level.
Let's talk about theprofessional development you
mentioned as a professional.
Definitely need to get to that10,000 hours or 10 years,
(13:46):
however you wanna look at that.
And I wanna tie in this idea ofergonomics conferences because
that could be a factor in anindividuals professional
development.
How does something likeconferences tie into that?
can you give us a bit ofbackground for the Ergo Expo in
particular?
There are a handful ofergonomics conferences that
happen in North America.
There's ACE in Canada that'sbeen around for decades.
(14:08):
The Human Factors and ErgonomicSociety here in the US is
another academic based one.
The Applied Ergonomicsconference, coming out of the.
Applied Ergonomic Society.
Those are kind of cores.
Academic based ones orprofessional based ones.
applied ergo and national ergo.
were the cornerstones of theconferences that happened in
(14:28):
North America on an annualbasis.
safety professionals, whetherit's the National Safety
Counselor or A SSP, have eventswith some ergo content that's
designed to help the safetyprofessionals build themselves.
But it's not a core.
These other conferences areentirely about human factors and
ergonomics.
What I was looked at with ErgoExpo was it had its niche.
(14:50):
So again, HFES is primarilyacademic.
ACE is a com.
I've always loved Ace and thatis probably one of the best
combination of academic andapplied conferences out there.
It's always well run.
I missed it for years, bymoving down here to the us.
I've been there a couple times.
(15:10):
I was there early on when I wasin at Waterloo, so I was
involved in it and did someinitial presentations way back
in, late nineties type of thing.
Before I moved here, nationalergo always fit in for me as an
event that had a differentapproach in a curriculum.
They had longer sessions, and Ialways said that Ergo Expo was
(15:31):
the teaching.
Conference, it had an hour longsessions, it had workshops, it
had things that was basicallytrying to teach people who were
trying to get into ergonomics.
so there was always contentthat was higher level so that
people who were agonists or moreadvanced, in their, careers
from a physical therapy,occupational therapy
perspective, that they couldalways come and learn.
(15:53):
Maybe, newer technologies,newer information.
There was always content thattried to help people grow and
bring people in.
The other events are likeapplied.
Ergo is an excellent event forpractitioners because it gives
case studies, short burst, lotsof great information, lots of
interaction of colleagues typeof thing, that are purely in
(16:14):
ergonomics.
So I always said there was abalance that in the spring you
always had applied ergonomics.
In the fall, you always hadnational ergo, and they both
gave this balance to the year ofhow do we get information out
about ergonomics to everybodywho's doing it out there type of
thing.
unfortunately as of, thisJanuary the National Ergo event
(16:35):
was shut down last year was thelast year of that event.
In its current in-personfashion, there is a chance
something may come back, but Ihave.
No direct information aboutwhat that could look like.
were you involved in any of theplanning boards for any of
those organizations?
I was involved, with nationalergo I was co-chair for close to
(16:57):
10 years.
I was brought on, can'tremember which year it was at
this point.
The idea at the time was toincrease the industrial content,
to increase the technicalcontent, of what was presented
on an annual basis.
we had a heavy focus on officeergonomics, which was fine, but
it wasn't balanced.
And we needed to add more ofthe pure assessment approaches,
(17:20):
get more case studies fromindustries, bring in more
technology.
Along with, Rachel, Michael,the two of us were brought in to
basically increase that.
I think anybody that went tothe event over the last decade
would've seen that the contentshifted and we had, honestly,
the last few years were probablythe most well-balanced,
(17:40):
developed.
The type of content coming in,was excellent.
I thoroughly enjoyed.
I went to go see a bunch ofpeople I'd never seen talk
before, and I said that wasprobably one of the best events
that I'd gone to.
Way to go off on a high note inregards to that.
Why do you think conferenceslike Nashville orgo Expo
resonates so deeply with otherergonomics professionals?
(18:03):
We need to get out of our ownboxes.
Yeah.
regardless of what you do, ifyou're a consultant, you have
your process and how you do itall the time.
If you are in a company, youhave that culture and you have a
set group of people you workwith all the time.
If we live in our bubbles weonly grow so far.
So having those events to gomeet face to face.
(18:25):
Sit down with people.
Learn from people is critical.
the idea that conferences wouldgo away, and, they die off and
we just go to virtual things, itwon't work.
We won't grow the same.
Anybody who goes to thoseevents always comes back and
says, yes.
There was a lot of, I've tookaway a few great talks.
But then 50% of my time andvalue was talking to people and
(18:48):
learning from others and makingconnections.
most of the people that I workwith now are people that have
spoken at events that I've metthrough conferences and met
through different boards I'vebeen on, and made that
connection of we have commoninterests and things we wanna
work on and let's stay connectedabout it.
So It's a critical part of mycareer to have been involved in
(19:09):
those, to have volunteered inall those things.
volunteered for, the BCPE, Iwas part of that as a director
and then president for a coupleyears, being involved with A SSP
and the ergonomics practicespecialty.
Huge involvement there, andit's doing incredibly well.
At this point.
They've had some greatmanagement over the last few
years Working with the MSDsolutions lab and the team there
(19:31):
at the National Safety Council.
huge value of being involvedwith all these people and giving
you insights beyond your owncompany.
Absolutely.
I am listening to this andfirst thing I'm thinking that I
wanna encourage all my listenersto get into some sort of
volunteer role or even at leastgo to a conference.
That's something I personallyneed to make a priority because
(19:54):
you're convincing me that thisis a step towards just being a
fully holistic To be aware ofwhat your blind spots could be
and incorporate it to just bringup your game and as an
industry.
We can definitely benefit fromthis because there's so much we
can be doing for our cities andarea is with any sort of
(20:16):
ergonomics assistance and thecompanies that we work for as
well, of course.
And I really appreciate yousharing this stuff, David, like
you are bringing so muchperspective to the listeners of
this podcast.
And I wanted to ask you, inaddition to the conferences that
you mentioned.
Where do you think that thefield of ergonomics is headed in
(20:38):
the next five to 10 years?
I think there's so muchadvancement in technology right
now, so I think people are stilltrying to figure out how much
will technology give us thevalue we hope it does.
In other words, anybody who'sbeen doing ergonomics for a long
time.
There's only been so manydifferent ways we can evaluate
risk, and most of it has been,talking to people, video camera
(20:59):
four, gauge the basic tools ofthe trade type of thing.
And understanding morecumulative exposures, more
detail of exposures.
there hasn't been a ton ofresearch yet and enough
knowledge to say what do we dowith it all, there's a lot of
information that we may be ableto collect that, we honestly
don't have a completeunderstanding of what it's gonna
tell us yet.
So I think the future is whatwill technology help us to be
(21:24):
more efficient, be more accuratein what we're doing to make it
more accessible to people.
How do we deal with that,manage that, make sure we don't
adopt things that are just shinyversus truly valuable.
But that's the skillset of anto understand the process and
use those skills to evaluate thevalue of something.
So we have to be critical ofeverything that comes in the
(21:44):
door be open to it.
And saying, okay, we gotta trythese things out.
I think there's a lot ofpotential value on what AI can
do for us for processing data,understanding information,
feeding solutions to teams moreeasily.
pulling data in that we used tobe, what's part of your
consulting project?
I gotta go on the internet.
Find all these differentsolutions and cut and paste
(22:07):
vendor information, do all thisstuff, and now you know, the
reality is you can ask a coupleof questions and a lot of that
information could be processedin a matter of minutes.
So how we're able to do thatand harness it I've seen some
great things for companies thatare doing incident
investigations and using AI to.
Monitor the quality of the workthat's going into
(22:28):
investigations to improve thedata that's going into all these
massive systems about thedifferent incidences that are
happening in companies so thatwe can get better at it.
And then of course, can the AIhelp us process all of that
information to look for trends.
Look for things that will helpus make good data-driven
decisions.
So there's a lot.
(22:49):
My guess is probably over thenext five to 10 years, we're
gonna see new tools, new ways oflooking at risk, new ways of
gathering information, companiesare gonna work out the best way
to use this technology and AIto, evolve how we look at
ergonomics and health and safetyas a whole.
See, and I love yourperspective when you are
highlighting that when we gointo a shop floor, we're not
(23:13):
going to be aware of what wesee.
So it's pretty much thinking onour feet, and you're marrying
that with the adoption of AIthat we're not sure where it's
gonna take us.
However, there may be someopportunities for us as a
profession Coming into theprofession right now, more
knowledge about data analytics,more knowledge about ai and
being able to use that and bringit into what you're doing,
(23:35):
that's what people are gonna belooking for is a skillset.
People are gonna expect you tohave better data knowledge and
better data analytics to presentyourself at a higher level.
Now, considering this, when youare mapping out where you
perhaps consider the educationand professional development of
current ergonomists and.
(23:57):
Whether it's through the BCPEor university or college level
or courses that are out therethat teaches a specific part of
ergonomics, what do you thinkwould be useful aspects or
changes that would need tohappen here to ensure that these
folks are bringing theirpotential to the ergonomics
(24:17):
field in 2025 and beyond?
I think, now, when I was inuniversity, I hated statistics.
That was one of my leastfavorite courses.
But when you looked at courseson, research design, the bigger
picture view thought process.
And I think that's where thewhole aspect of being a data
analyst, is a skillset thathonestly, for the person who's
not gonna be a researcher.
(24:38):
Understanding the differentlevels of analytics,
understanding how you're gonnabe able to use data to a higher
level is gonna be, a more usefulskillset about how you're gonna
work within a company.
Because in many cases, ifyou're trying to evaluate risk,
we're gonna be getting to thepoints where you're starting to
pull in massive amounts of datafrom different sources Looking
(24:59):
at cumulative information, andyou're gonna need to understand
how to analyze that data andbuild out, analytics to
basically, understand it better,or at least be able to talk to
the right people at the rightlevel to build out those
equations and the process typeof thing.
So the core will always bethere.
you still better know yourbiomechanics, physiology,
(25:19):
psychology, sociology,everything, all that stuff will
not go away.
That's what gives you theexpertise to understand what's
going on.
But then once you startmeasuring all those things, that
skillset on this side is where,we need to grow.
Interesting.
And that ties back to.
Using this data to analyze someperhaps new or interesting ways
(25:43):
to look at the data.
Yes.
And getting as much informationthat we've ever had with the
new technology coming out andtying with AI so that I am
resonating with that andstatistics and the new era,
break something down orelaborate on some aspects
relevant to us, still needs tohave a thoughtful component from
an agonist that reallyunderstands statistics.
(26:05):
Honestly, sometimes when youlook at, how some of the data is
being collected out there andsome of the technology vendors,
there are some gaps in some ofthose companies where they don't
have ergonomics or biomechanicsor physiology expertise.
So sometimes if you don't havethe right people to ask the
right questions then you're justprocessing data blindly to see
(26:26):
what trends can I find.
Versus trying to connect dotson relevant pieces of data to
say this is how we can predictrisk.
So there's a balance that'llneed to occur out there and I
think the more we do that, thebetter.
We'll see that technology beprobably in the next couple
years.
This is a collective sense ofrelief.
I am feeling for all thelisteners on this podcast no, we
(26:48):
are not getting rid ofagonists.
If anything, it could be, moreimportant in a different data
analysis, strategy perspectivethan ever before.
We're looking at theapplication and, impact of the
ergonomics.
doing that.
But technology is gonna take alittle bit of that skill set
away and it's a pro and a con inthat you're gonna move direct
(27:10):
to technology for some of thenewer folks out there, they're
gonna go straight to computervision, say, this is how I'm
gonna evaluate.
Or they'll go to sensors andsay, this is what I'm gonna use.
So there might be a little bitof a gap in skillset of being
able to validate that what thisis telling you is good.
But, the quality of the work.
You're not gonna be spendingyour time out in the field doing
(27:30):
all the grunt work all thetime.
Now you're shifting yourself toa data oriented, process and
being able to use your knowledgeof the human body to process
that and give recommendations toimprove.
Let's talk about mentorship.
And your thoughts on mentorshipand ergonomics, how important
has this been for you in thedevelopment of your career?
(27:51):
I, to be honest, I've never hada direct mentor.
But I've always been a sponge.
I saw people that I respectedhow they were doing what they
were doing and tried to learnfrom 'em.
And, going back to PeterBudnick with Ergo Web way back.
And his involvement with theBCPE.
I remember I sent him a noteone time and said how do I help,
how do I get involved with BCP?
In other words, how do I buildmyself to have a career like
(28:14):
yours in some way?
Or be someone who has your typeof expertise.
And, whether it's someone thatwas in ergonomics or someone
that was a manager that had acertain way of how they
interacted with people and howthey explain things.
A couple of my bosses that I'vehad over time about how
analytical they were, how theyused information, how they
pushed me, and it was like it'sabout learning from all those
(28:35):
people.
And now, over the last coupleyears, I started interacting
with someone like Chris Reedover at Boeing and I'd be like,
I like the way he's doing whathe's doing.
How do I take Cargill in thatdirection?
How do I build a program thatcould be like his, or, I see a
friend of mine, Ryan over atGeneral Motors and say, I like
what they're doing withtechnology.
How could I build, I can't doexactly what they're doing.
(28:57):
How could I be like that typeof thing.
And it's like you learn fromsome people and things that make
a lot of sense to you.
And that's again, circling backto the conferences and the
interactions.
I met Chris Reed more directlyby getting involved with STM.
I met Ryan through gettinginvolved with the, automotive
exoskeleton group these arepeople that we were out there
(29:18):
doing ergo together but I neverwould've directly run into these
folks before and had personalinteractions and learned from
them.
A lot of times with all thatvolunteer it's like shoving
yourself into situations whereyou get to interact with those
people and you find out that,We're all here, we're all trying
to do the same thing, and allthose people will talk to you.
(29:38):
will always take time to talkto someone if they, comes up and
I'd like to learn or understanda little bit more about what
you're doing, Full circle momentof the value of going to
conferences and tying that inwith the continuous improvement
of your career and where thepotential is.
Yeah.
So if one thing that someonetakes away from our conversation
(29:59):
today, I think it's gonna bethe value of getting involved in
the ergonomics community so youcan uplevel your game.
Is that fair?
Very fair.
I'll give one other piece ofthat too is that, there's a lot
of times when you're in themiddle of what your job is and
having things that give yousomething else to do and draw
your knowledge in a differentway and challenge you in a
(30:20):
different way.
It's gonna balance out youryear.
It may feel like a little extrawork, but the reality is from a
mental perspective.
Going and doing somethingdifferent, contributing to
something out, you're gonna gainvalue from that experience.
And it gives you a break frombeing only focused on one thing.
And that expansion ofknowledge, you'll constantly
(30:41):
bring that into what you do.
So it just makes, a very wellbalanced career by doing more
The reality too is that there'sa lot of things about how we can
get better ergonomics andhealth and safety.
That if we don't go out andshare that information, it's
gonna take a much longer for alot of us to get better.
So the more you share it,whether it's in podcasts like
(31:03):
this, whether it's in, onlineresources.
The broader ways to get it outthere, or again, sharing it at
conferences where you can say,this is what we did and it
works.
This is what we did and itdidn't work.
Sometimes you can talk aboutthings that didn't work very
well, so people can learn fromour mistakes too.
I am reminded of a reallyfamous statement that really
(31:24):
resonates with me, and it's thata rising tide lifts all ships
That's where I really feel likeyour perspective of the
ergonomics industry, if thatcould be coined in a term,
something like that, which isjust so refreshing.
So kudos to you.
Thank you.
I got some colleagues who say Italk too much sometimes, I'm
like sometimes someone needs tosay something I have some sort
(31:47):
of perspective that is betterthan anything else.
But this is what I know andthis is what we've been through.
ever since I've been withCargill, I have the luxury of
working for a company with a lotof resources and support in the
area of what we're doing.
So we're doing a lot of thingsthat.
If we can help other people outby sharing, I'll do it.
Brilliant.
I have a few more questions toask and these are gonna be more
of like a lightning round if Ido say so myself.
(32:10):
Okay.
And I know that people aregonna love to hear your
responses to this.
So if you were to say, favoriteergonomics, resource or book
that you still go to, is thereone resource or book?
Kodak.
Kodak?
Yeah.
Kodak, you can almost still usethe specs that come out of
there in every other resource.
So like a core book, with tonsof information, would be Kodak,
(32:32):
occupational ergonomics, was theother one that, was a key
resource early on.
Humor.
Just find ways to be relaxed.
Yes.
humble humor and humility areprobably the two things, that
will open yourself up to a lotof people.
Best piece of advice thatyou've ever received?
It was just, talking in one ofour meetings last week and,
(32:53):
probably the one bit of advicethat I got early on.
From, Dr.
Norman in Kin 1 0 1 was when Ianswered a question that he
posed to the students and helistened to the answer and he
just looked at me dead in theeyes and said, you can do better
than that.
And when Dr.
Norman stares you in the eyeslike that and gives you those
words, it hits the student.
(33:14):
You're a year one student, andthat became a motto.
For the next five years how doyou do better?
What's your go-to way to staycurrent in the field?
Sign up for lots of, online,webinars, information, going
into LinkedIn, and making sureI'm following Resources that
provide a lot of information.
There's some good folks outthere that share research that I
(33:35):
may not automatically look for,But just keeping your, knowing
what you need to keep your awareof and making sure you are
getting resources fed to you,regularly, especially things
that are easily digestible sothat you're not trying to spend
hours of reading type of thing.
What would you say the mostexciting innovation in the
ergonomics field right now is?
(33:56):
I'm interested, we're usingcomputer vision.
I think it has a lot ofpotential.
I think it's gonna probablygrow a ton over the next couple
years to be better and better atwhat it is.
I think that is gonna makevisualization, very strong for a
lot of people.
And the reason I think it'sexciting is that it brings
ergonomics to everybody thatinstead of doing a calculation
(34:19):
and showing a graph andeverything, you now have
something that is visual thatyou can show to an operations
person, to an employee directlyafter they've done their task to
say, this is what I'm trying tofix.
But now you can show them in avery, I'm trying to change this.
How do we do that?
So it's a communication tool.
So to me there's a lot ofpotential there.
'cause it's so simple to useand it can provide a really good
(34:42):
communication.
It can demystify ergo for a lotof people.
So for me, that's the current,I think AI is gonna be the next
one, I'll be honest, I know AIas well as I know statistics
right now, so I got a lot oflearning to do or I have to work
with someone who is gonna begood at it and we'll work
together.
I can see a tag team coming outhere, David and there's the
(35:04):
latest, greatest informationcoming from you with AI or
something like that in thefuture.
we just received a researchgrant from the National Safety
Council.
Not we as in Cargill, butUniversity of Waterloo, along
with partnering with Cargill todo some, research on cumulative
exposure and injury predictive,models Probably in the next 18
(35:24):
to 24 months, we'll start to seea lot of work that we've been
doing with sensor technology tosee, how much more we can do
with the data we have.
So bringing in some, like Isaid, very smart people.
I provide the big picture viewand the data and the questions
and we work together to buildsomething really good.
There are some great resourcesthat are gonna be coming up.
Year and a half, two years fromnow So all this stuff with the
(35:47):
future of ergonomics.
David, thank you so much foryour time today to sharing your
insights.
And I totally agree thateverything that you talked about
resonated with me with theconferences and mentorship and
by upleveling and continuoussuccess of our careers.
No.
The last thing that was comingto mind is as everything comes
(36:08):
full circle is like maybe opento make my way up to Quebec City
and this fall to go to the ACEconference.
And you're not that far away inPEI, it's my list.
It really is.
Yeah, it is.
I'm hoping, be able to make itout there.
Yeah.
And continue to be involved inAce.
my fall has opened up, so I'mhoping to add Ace as a new,
excellent, replacement for theErgo Expo.
(36:30):
Brilliant.
So that's the Association ofCanadian Agonists Hopping, like
the first week of October.
Of 2025 in Quebec City.
A beautiful place to go.
One place in Canada, I haven'tbeen yet.
It would be a wonderfulcombination of, location and
people.
Speaker (36:45):
So I got so much out of this interview you guys.
If you wanna connect withDavid, I invite you to connect
with him on LinkedIn.
You can check him out in theshow notes, leave him a message
If you are an ergonomicsconsultant.
And you want a place to connectwith fellow ergonomics peers,
get time saving resources, andstay up to date with the latest
(37:09):
ergonomics literature.
Then I wanna invite you to signup to the wait list for
Accelerate the Business ofErgonomics.
There you're gonna find someamazing resources
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