September 8, 2025 • 32 mins
Join Josh on The Business of Gaming podcast as he visits with David from the Alexandria RPG Library in Seattle, Washington. This episode discusses the process of starting a non-profit in the tabletop gaming industry, why role-playing games are important and what challenges you can expect to face.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hey, y'all.
Welcome to the Business ofGaming podcast.
I'm Josh from Gaming HavenGuild, and today we're at PAX
West with David, the founder andchief librarian of the
Alexandria RPG Library, anonprofit focused on sharing RPG
history and gameplay at largeconventions and
community-focused events.
David, can you tell us about thehistory of the library?
So, history of Alexandria RPG.
We started at Emerald City ComicCon in 2017.
(00:23):
I was the deputy manager ofgaming, and one of the other
gentlemen that works with thelibrary, he was the manager of
gaming, and I had off pan saidabout two three months before
the events and you know wealways have these board game
library why is nobody done arole-playing game library and
then about two weeks before theshow an entire room of small
vendors uh dropped some droppedout some moved to another part
(00:45):
of the show and then we ended upwith a room that we didn't have
anything for less than two weeksbefore the show and he goes hey
can you do that role-playinggame library you said you could
do my brain i'm going that's notwhat i said but i was like yeah
sure so that night i talked to afriend who lives in Iowa, and I
said, I'm going to be doing thisrole-playing game library.
I'm just going to be pulling allthe books off my shelf.
(01:06):
I don't know what to do.
And then he was like, can I mailyou some books?
Sure.
So his books got there, got tomy house the first day where I
was already up here in Seattle,away from my house, didn't know
that they got there.
I had 348 books out of my housethat I just stuffed on a shelf
and said, role-playing games arecool.
Let's talk about them.
And then that night got hisbooks.
(01:28):
They came in the day, so we gotshelved the next day so we were
like over 400 books now this isawesome and everybody kept
coming in like hey can you bringthis to our event so we had like
small events that were locallythat wanted us to come because
they were like nobody's donethis before and then there were
two little fun things thathappened one there was a young
man that came in he came runningin he had three friends he had
(01:50):
them by their hands running inthere like stumbling behind him
and he just exuberantly goesexplain role playing games I was
like uh okay and so I startedexplaining what role-playing
games are.
And a young lady that was withhim was like, so we can make
characters?
I was like, yeah.
So I grabbed a game calledDeadlands.
And I thought it was going to befun because it's very
(02:10):
interactive character building.
It's done with a deck of cards.
And they just sat there quietlyfor like two hours, these four
teenagers making characters.
And they put the books back andleft.
I was like, oh, you know, theylooked like they had fun.
You know, mission, missionsuccess.
Next day, one of the otherteenagers, he came back and he's
like, hey, the game that we madecharacters for you, Yesterday,
we went and found the books lastnight and we bought them and
(02:33):
we're going to be playing thatgame.
I was like, oh, that's awesome.
So, you know, the kid that wasexcited, he had just heard and
found out about role-playinggames.
He had gone back east for awedding and a family and like
his cousin's like, hey, let'splay a role-playing game, D&D.
And then all he could rememberwas it was a role-playing game
and couldn't remember anythingelse.
And now because of that cousinintroduced him to it and then he
(02:57):
drug his friends in and throughthe library, we We introduced
him to role-playing games, moreof them, and then they went out
and played.
And I was like, that was reallyawesome.
And then I think it was on theSaturday of that event, there
was a dad who had his13-year-old son, and it was like
six or seven friends of his son.
So Emerald City Comic Con ispretty big.
(03:20):
It's about as big as PAX.
So on the weekend, you're atlike 90,000 people that come
through.
So at any point, there's tens ofthousands of people in the
building.
And here's a dad...
hanging six or seven 13-year-oldkids around this giant
convention.
And I think he just saw, youknow, like the little sign we
had, it said role-playing gamelibrary and a shelf of books.
(03:41):
And he was like, great, this isa break.
They come in, they're asking amillion questions.
And one's like, can we play?
And before I could say no, myvolunteers are like, look, we
know where you're going to be.
If we need you, you'll be righthere.
Let these kids play role-playinggames.
So I grabbed all the D6 StarWars because everybody knows
Star Wars.
(04:02):
All you need are six-sided diceand then there's characters
already made in the back of thebook.
So one kid would like tookpicture of the character sheet
so he just had it on his phoneto use and we could pass the
books around.
The other kids were writing themdown.
And an hour later, none of themsurvived.
We started in a cantina becauseevery RPG starts in a bar or a
tavern or a cantina.
(04:22):
So they didn't even make it outof a cantina.
All the characters had died.
And I'm like, oh man, this ishorrible.
And then I get hugs from thesekids.
They were like, That wasawesome.
They give me a hug.
And then, you know, they wereout in the hall like, oh my God,
just see when I did this.
And they were just like goingover the top.
They were doing what we all do,playing role-playing games,
telling stories, retelling thestories that we just created
together.
And then I looked at the dad andlegit had like a tear in his
(04:45):
eye.
I was like, hey, is everythingokay?
He's like, I've been trying tofigure out for a couple of years
how to interest my son torole-playing games.
And you just did that for me.
I was like, oh, now I reallyhave to actually make this thing
go.
And so we started going toevents that have first year, you
know, that was 2017, startedEmerald City.
And I think we did like eightevents that year, just kind of
(05:05):
like, and it was me justdragging books to places.
We did packs that year and itwas bonkers.
You know, I was just like, okay,here I am setting up a, you
know, I, by then I had, uh, like1100 books.
Uh, so going from March of 2017to September of 2017 went from
300, 348 books to like 1100books, uh, in just that short
(05:28):
amount of time.
And, you know, I'm like, okay, Ihave a room here at PAX.
Like, what?
And then, you know, we just keepgrowing from there.
We're over 10,000 books now.
And we're in the process ofmaking plans of how to set up a
second location in the Midwestso we can get to East Coast and
Midwest stuff because...
(05:48):
trying to get to that stuff fromhere in Seattle is just insanely
expensive.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe logistics of that growth
because 10,000 books, 10,000anything is difficult to move
around.
So yeah, it was absorbing myliving room and dining room,
literally.
I was stacking stuff on thecheap foldable plastic tables
(06:09):
and broke a few because they'relike, oh, it's over.
I'd come home and all the booksare just in this V and they're
like, oh God, I got to dobetter.
And so buying shelves and when Icould afford them.
And then we're like, I got toget you storage.
So then we got a 10 by 10.
And now we've got two 10 by 10sthat are stuffed full.
And we're looking at eithergetting a 10 by 30 in climate
(06:30):
controlled storage, or we'retrying to see if we can partner
with another nonprofit thatthey've outgrown their space,
but they can't afford to go to abigger space.
So if we can work out a dealwith them to go to a bigger
space, and then we're helpingeach other out.
But it's always, we're in aconstant need of funds because
where that was kind of thepurpose of going non-profit is
(06:53):
yeah I had a friend's like youwere stupid for going non-profit
I was like paperwork's nothorribly hard we're a library so
we were able to put it down inthat and we went and that went
fairly quickly but you knowother people they're like oh I
you know talking to somegentlemen that are trying to do
similar what we're doing butwith TCGs trading card games and
collectible card games andthey're they're going through a
(07:18):
much more difficult process thanwe did because, you know, it's
like we literally have books forour library.
We go places and share bookswith people.
So our paperwork on that, it waspretty simple.
And with that, you know, uh, it,it, it's easier to solicit
donations.
I've had, I had somebody donatelike 50 limited edition, uh,
role-playing game books and, youknow, he would, you know,
(07:40):
that's, that's how I think wefigured up the value.
It was like$1,800, uh, in those,in those books, uh, you know,
And so I wrote him a tax letterwith the names of the books and,
you know, thank you.
And then he was able, you know,he went and got the values and
then his, uh, uh, his, hisaccountant figured it in.
So he got a tax write off doingthat.
(08:01):
And that's kind of the entirereason to do the nonprofit for
us.
Because we we've never mademoney.
In fact, for many years, we wereout of pocket 10 plus thousand
dollars a year.
So myself and other people, youknow, putting our own funds in
it to make it go.
And, you know, people were like,oh, When does this go from a
passion project to an actualthing?
(08:23):
I'm like, it's always been anactual thing.
It's just us figuring out how toget to the people and get more
than just books.
I tell everybody we operate offof three types of donations,
time, books, and money.
Doing good on books.
And as we expand, many of thecompanies that have been
donating books to us, new books,understand that now as we're
(08:45):
expanding, instead of, hey,here's a copy of our new book,
they're going to have to do acouple copies because we're
going to be in multiple places.
And they're excited about that.
Getting volunteers, that's beena long road, but why we can
expand to a new location is wehave a really great set of
people that volunteer to come dothese events with us.
(09:05):
So like for PAX West, PAX gaveus a 50 by 50 booth space with
15 tables and then gave us, Ithink we had 50 badges.
And so we had people that comein and volunteered as
librarians.
So they rehau reshell books.
They talk to people aboutrole-playing games and then the
like, then we have our GMs or wecall them game hosts because we
(09:29):
have a variety of games.
And so our, our game hosts willsit down, you know, they're
running a huge variety of games,uh, sometimes D and D, but you
know, like a big one thisweekend has been dagger heart.
Uh, geez, uh, do, uh, what's itdread.
Uh, dread is super popular.
Uh, we usually have that one runin the evenings.
Cause it's supposed to be alittle more, you know, horror
(09:50):
suspenseful.
Yeah.
That's not really when you wereon earth, you know, like 10
o'clock in the morning showopen, let's play dread.
Um, we have a lot of star Wars.
There's a ton of like classicgames and super fun.
So those are all those, thosefun little logistics pieces and
getting the, uh, the volunteersand getting the books donated.
(10:10):
We're been good on that.
And you know, we always struggleon that money piece.
Uh, some of the events pay us tocome.
Uh, it's not a lot of money, butthey see the value that we add.
Cause they're like, oh, Hey, wegive them this space.
We give them a few, a few bucksto make sure that they can get
here, get parking.
Some, some, sometimes eventswill give us hotel rooms and
stuff.
So, uh, we have GMs that arecoming from out of town.
(10:32):
We can put them up, you know, inthat room.
Uh, and that helps out becausewe're not paying for that out of
pocket.
man there's just so many littlepieces that you never thought
you would be dealing with and Imean the first two years was
just me going places like hey Ihave 1500 pounds of books I'm
going to put these shelves upand I'm going to set them up and
then I'm going to run a couplegames then I'm going to get the
(10:56):
attendees to run games and westill do that to this day but
like here we had 170 pre-plannedgames going off before show
opened so volunteers coming in,running those games.
And then we still have tablesthat set aside, oh, do you want
to run a game?
Great.
(11:16):
You saw this cool game, Vasen,from Free League.
Here you go.
Here's the books.
Here's pencils, paper, dice.
And then we help find themplayers.
And then they sit down and playthe game.
And they're all like, yay, weplayed a game.
And then it's value added forthe events.
Because not only is it our hostsrunning games, then and they
(11:38):
have attendees running games.
So everybody's walking away withthat cool, extra special memory.
Like, oh, I played thisrole-playing game I never played
before.
And then we did this.
And then they'll start into therole-playing game stories
because it's what we all do whenwe play role-playing games.
Why the emphasis on role-playinggames?
Role-playing games are awesomefor a bazillion reasons and the
(11:58):
gaming industry.
So whenever I message on socialmedia or whatever, I always
capitalize game because Itdoesn't matter who you are when
you come into the library, whatyou sit down and you're gonna be
gaming.
You're hopefully anotherfriendly face, but in this day
and age, everybody, they're justangry people behind their thumbs
(12:21):
on a phone.
You don't know what the otherperson is or why they said what
they did, but if you can sitdown and game with somebody,
you're gonna leave that table abetter person because you've
spent time with somebody youknow nothing about.
You could be a Republicansitting down with a Democrat.
You could be a Communist sittingdown with a, whatever you are,
(12:44):
and you're gonna sit down andgame with someone you know
nothing about, and you're gonnahave a good time, and that's
somebody that you might havebeen angry at because of how
they posted something on socialmedia, and you're like, oh,
you're a horrible, evil person,and then you don't know any of
that, and you sit down, and oh,man, that guy was great.
She had some cool ideas, andthat got us through a sticky
(13:07):
spot in this adventure.
And...
We used to be like that.
We've always been people angryat other people, but sitting
around telling stories around acampfire, we've been doing that
as humans for hundreds ofthousands of years.
We're just doing that with rulesand somebody to direct us, your
(13:28):
game host, your GM, whatever youwant to call them.
They're just directing the storyand everybody sitting at that
table is building us up.
And just sit down and go out andgame with people and just be a
better person.
That's what the role of But canyou walk us back through kind of
the basics of setting up anonprofit?
How's that different thanrunning for-profit business?
(13:50):
Oh, well, for us, there is noway that we could do what we do
for profit just because, I mean,how do we do that?
So, yeah.
Our options were to exist as anon-entity and just trust that
organizations would give usspace.
As a nonprofit, it gives anavenue for the books and time
(14:15):
donations.
So if somebody's working forGoogle or Microsoft and they
volunteer hours for us, theyactually can register those and
we get paid for their hours,which is super cool.
So they come to an event, run afour-hour game.
We get paid, depending on...
the organization we get paid uhfor that four hours which is
(14:35):
nice it's a win-win for you knowus and but yeah there's no way
we could do this as a for-profitthing because we just like
everybody's like oh are thesebooks for sale and it's like no
no they're not please you knowwe put signs around like this is
a library none of these booksare for sale uh because if we're
doing it for sale uh we i don'tthink we'd get the support uh
(14:56):
setting up as a non-profit uh iwent through an attorney who sat
me down And he's like, okay,here's what we need to do.
And anything, anytime you'redoing anything, legal paperwork,
guys, spend a few bucks to getan attorney.
Find one that, I found somebodythat specialized in nonprofits.
So, and he's looking through,he's like, oh, well, you're a
(15:18):
library.
So this is easy.
We can do, you know, and heended up, uh, actually giving us
the, his time for free becausehe's a role-playing nerd.
He was like, I really like whatyou're doing.
This is a neat idea.
So kind of lucked out on thatone.
But, uh, you know, he sat downlike, how do we classify you and
(15:38):
seeing that.
We have books and we, you know,loan books out and talk to
people about books.
It was easy to sign us up as a,uh, uh, as a, uh, like we're
education library is like, Ithink of it, how the subset
goes.
Nonprofit or for profit.
It's still a business.
We don't sell anything.
And so therefore all the moneywe take in our donations.
(16:00):
So we have little bits andpieces out and we do it.
They, we, we jokingly call itthe PBS model.
So somebody donates$5, they canget a sticker.
You donate$15, you can get acool pin.
Uh, we started a cool littlething.
Hey, we, in our, our, uh, boardmember group, we're like, what
about an adopted die?
You know, it's like pet rock.
(16:21):
So we got these little boxes,put paper in them, uh, uh,
companies that had donated diceto us.
We put those in the differentboxes and then we came up with
little back names andbackstories for all the dice.
So just like the humane society.
Yeah.
Here's Alfie.
He's adorable.
Little kitty, blah, blah, blah.
You know, and it's like, he's,he's good.
with other pets.
He came from a hoarder's home of100 cats.
(16:44):
And so we do something similarwith all the dice.
It's like, this is Chad.
Chad is a winner-take-all typedie.
He will do good in a home thatloves backyard wrestling.
And so somebody makes adonation, and we suggest about
$20.
There's time and stuff, and wedo need to get funding.
(17:06):
So we have to do all the thingsthat a standard business does,
like, okay, how much do thosestickers cost us because I can't
take a$5 donation for a stickerif the stickers cost me$5
because I'm negative funds atthat point.
I actually had somebody complainlike, oh, you're taking
donations for these?
(17:26):
This is kind of expensive.
I was like, do you kind ofunderstand what we're trying to
do here?
I grew up in a comic book andgame store as a kid, so we got
people all the time like, whatare you charging so much?
Well, sir, that's the coverprice of the comic.
So Marvel said that's what weshould charge.
So I'm going to charge you thatmuch.
(17:48):
I always love that one.
Like, can I get this cheaper?
No.
Well, it's last month's issue.
Okay.
So it's now a back issue.
Let me go grade it and price itand it'll be more expensive.
How about in terms of runningthe business then what's, but
some of the surprise you as achallenge.
I mean, just.
The craziest thing for me was Istruggled early on letting
(18:11):
anybody help me because it wasthis weird thing that I started.
So 2017, 2018, literallyeverywhere I was going, I was
doing everything by myself.
PAX 2018.
two weeks or less than two weeksprior to the show um Wizards of
the Coast and Paizo both pulledout so I was now the only role
(18:35):
playing game thing at PAX West2018 and I had a room with like
10 tables and all the stuff andthen I just said uh I'll run a
couple games and then everybodyyou know I just I ended up that
entire weekend being the crazyscheduler like somebody's like
oh hey I want to run 30 editionGamma World at two o'clock
(18:56):
tomorrow.
I was like, sir, I don't havethe third edition Gamma World.
I do.
I'll bring all the stuff.
So, you know, hand jamming thesesignup sheets and taping them to
the wall outside of the room wewere at in the Olive Eight.
And so we were in a hotel awayfrom the main show and we ended
up hosting well over a hundredgames that weekend.
And almost all of that, I thinkI ran two games and all the rest
(19:17):
were attendees.
It was just mind boggling thereception we had from
individuals.
And after that, the showrunnerswere packed.
So a lot of the people withinthe organization, they've been
really awesome to us.
And they were like, you reallypulled us out of a fire on that
one because they didn't knowwhat they were going to do
because they'd advertised therewas going to be role-playing
(19:38):
games.
And well, we did role-playinggames.
At one point, we had like 20games going and none of them
were the same game, which isjust super cool because you're
like, oh, there's D&D 5thedition, 3rd edition, 1st
edition.
There's Star Wars.
There's Deadland.
And there, you know, you're justlooking around and you're like,
nothing is the same.
And you're like, that was so funto see.
(20:00):
And because we only had 10tables, there were people like
literally sitting on benches outin the hallway, like four
players sitting on one end and aGM sitting on the other end and
playing.
And then it was like talkingdown the row of players.
And, you know, that was superfun to see.
And it was like, and howdedicated, you know, we as
gamers can be.
(20:21):
What do you see coming up forthe library?
So where we're headed is, is sowe've grown so much and because
of that, uh, we can't get to allthe shows East coast because
like the last time we did GenCon, it costs us, uh, just to
get me and the books out therewas about$5,000.
And so that, that$5,000, yes,Gen Con is awesome to get to,
(20:44):
but that limits, we can't getmore books.
That's, you know, that's severalmonths, you know, between all
the things we do, that isseveral months of acquiring
books, uh, get paying for theclimate controlled storage
because the books don't go intothe standard public storage
that's out stores and everythinggets moldy and wet.
It goes into an indoor climatecontrolled storage.
(21:07):
We've completely filled two 10by 10 storage units.
I have to move stuff out of theway and roll shelves out to
curate a new thing.
So We've been looking at all theevents that we want to do.
And for the last few years,like, how do we do those?
So, um, my wife and I areliterally going to move from
Seattle to the Indianapolis areain the next couple of years and
(21:29):
set up start fresh ish therebecause.
Everything is still going to gohere.
I have a great crew of peoplethat are up here.
I trust them.
And because of that, I know thatI can take the core of what
we're doing here and startgoing.
And from Indianapolis, we canget to Gen Con because it's
(21:49):
right there.
We can get to all the events inthe Chicago area because it's a
three, four hour drive.
We can get to PAX Unplugged upin Philly.
That's a 10-ish hour drive.
Just everything.
had three people uh inviting usto events in uh um upstate new
york uh massachusetts and it'slike all these people and not
knowing that we're gonna we'retrying to do this expand and
(22:12):
they're like how do we get youout there i was like you guys
got to pay for the ship, theship, the books.
And they're like, we might beable to swing that.
And I was like, okay.
And a hotel room.
Uh, and food is like, how farcan I push this?
But, uh, so the, our midtermgoal now is getting, uh, my wife
(22:32):
and I moved out to the, uh, theMidwest so that we can set up
that next hub so that we canexpand to all the shows in the
rest of the U S because man, we,we get asked all the time.
Like, can you, come out todifferent shows.
It's like, no, we want to.
What are things you think thetabletop industry in particular
(22:53):
could do better to supportnonprofits in this space?
So we're not the only, I mean,we're the only thing that does
what we do, but there are othernonprofits.
There's a lot of like mentalhealth nonprofits that need just
people a few bucks in games anddice and stuff so that they can
(23:16):
keep their outreach to veteransand the groups that they're
servicing.
They can try to help set up incities like youth gaming groups
because getting to kids,especially teens that are
starting to get in a littletrouble, and if you can sit them
(23:37):
down at a role-playing gametable, we get to teach you
teamwork, social skills,communication, all the things
that we're kind of bad atteaching kids nowadays.
We can do that throughrole-playing games.
And if we can get companiesinvolved, you know, doing that
in their local areas or reachingout, you know, Hey, we've got a
game designer that grew up in,you know, um, Scranton, uh, you
(24:00):
know, and you know, there's no,no game company there.
So it was like, Hey, you knowwhat?
I grew up in Scranton.
Uh, let's find a, uh, find a,um, uh, uh, like a teen center.
or a local store and partnerwith them so they can set up
these gaming nights for teens.
Those are great ways to reachout to, you know, some like
(24:22):
small local nonprofits, workwith nonprofits that are trying
to work with individuals inprison and the, you know, people
that are released from prisonnow on parole.
And it's like here in Washingtonstate, up until our current
secretary of state came in,role-playing games were banned
in prisons here.
(24:44):
And secretary of state came inand he's somebody, you know, I,
I know through gaming, he's a,he's a big nerd.
And I had said, you know, I wastrying to figure out how to get
into prisons here in Washingtonstate.
And he's like, why can't you?
And I was like, I've just,everyone I've talked to is kind
of no.
And then he like his second weekin, uh, in the position as
secretary of state.
And he was like, okay, why can'twe do role-playing games in
(25:06):
prisons?
Oh, it was just a standing orderfrom way previous, uh, uh,
secretary of state from theeighties just said role-playing
games are banned from prisons inWashington state.
And he was like, done that, thatband's gone.
Like, he's like, I control theprisons and stuff in the state.
So I can rescind that, uh, youknow, that standing order from
(25:26):
40 years ago.
And so we like here inWashington state, we, we, we
have people that are gettingrole-playing games into prisons,
but once they get out, a lot ofpeople, while they're on parole,
there's restrictions.
Like you can't be around, uh,you know, certain people, people
that, especially we've donestupid stuff with.
But a lot of people on parole,they have a drinking
restriction.
(25:47):
And a lot of the game stores yougo to nowadays, they sell beer.
So you have somebody who'sgotten away from, you know,
like, hey, trying torehabilitate in prison.
I'm playing role-playing games.
Now that I'm out, I can't go toa local game store and play
because they sell alcohol.
I don't want the stores to stopselling alcohol because that's
actually great for adult,late-time gaming, and it's
(26:10):
really good for the stores.
But there are nonprofits thatgame companies can reach out to
say, hey, is there a way we cando parolee gaming?
It's like, hey, come here.
It's a nice, quiet place.
There's going to be no alcohol,no drugs.
It's a nice, controlled place.
And you have that continuing...
(26:30):
care.
Game companies should bereaching out with addiction
centers.
Because the best way to fightaddiction is finding a
replacement.
And role-playing games aregreat.
I have worked with a coupleaddiction centers and taught
some of their individuals how toplay role-playing games.
(26:50):
And they show that and play withthe people, not as a therapy
thing, but as like, hey, haveyou thought about playing these?
And then when they get done withtheir treatment, they're now
like oh I got an itch and thenthey write write something write
a new write up a bunch of NPCsor write a new scenario and then
oh next Tuesday I have a I havea you know I got a game with the
(27:11):
with with my friends and it'slike and then you know after
that game if they're having runslike okay next Tuesday I have a
game so they they have thatthing to look forward to every
week they have all the littlethings that we can do with
role-playing games scratchesitches so those are a lot of
little things and I encouragegame stores to do that as well
so if you're a local game store,you can reach out to find the
(27:33):
addiction centers in your areaand give them some copies of
role-playing games and find away for them to help grow your
community and give them a newavenue to be a productive member
of society.
It's amazing what we can do withthese fun, silly storytelling
games with rules.
(27:54):
It's just collaborativestorytelling with rules.
Well, to someone listening who'sgot an idea for some sort of non
in the tabletop space, whatadvice would you give?
have a passion.
Uh, I know, I know a bunch ofpeople that have done like
political type of nonprofits andthey literally started them
because they know they can makemoney off of them.
(28:15):
If you're going to do somethingin this space as a nonprofit,
you probably not going to makemoney and you have to want to do
what you're going to do.
So it's have that passion andmake sure, you know, you accept
the help from others.
Because if I, if I wouldn't haveaccepted help from others, I,
this would have been a gone longtime ago.
I probably would have burned outI deployed to Iraq and Syria in
(28:38):
2019 and 2020.
And for the library to keepgoing through that 2019 and
early 2020, I had to have otherpeople help out.
So my wife stepped up and tookover a bunch of stuff.
And then there was other, I wasdoing interviews with game
designers from various locationsin Iraq.
(29:00):
And then in 2021, I was inUkraine.
So I'm in the middle of nowhereUkraine in the dark on my phone,
doing an interview, a liveinterview.
Uh, and it's like, okay, I cando this at like two o'clock in
the morning, Ukrainian time sothat we can live stream it at a,
at a reasonable time in, uh, inthe US.
So, you know, and, and, and allof that was possible because I
(29:23):
had that passion and I was ableto accept the help from other
people that had offered it.
I didn't know how to accept it.
Let's, uh, let someone else helpyou, especially if they should
share a bit of that passion withyou.
You'll burn out if you don't.
And whatever you're doing, youknow, you're not going to make
money off of it.
(29:44):
You're not going to do it forvery long.
And whatever you've started mayhave been the most awesome thing
in your area, and then it'sgone.
And, you know, somebody's like,well, that didn't succeed, so I
won't do it either.
Any last thoughts for us?
Always support your local gamestore.
Sometimes you may have a badgame store.
Support them until you get abetter one.
(30:04):
But You know, we've always jokedthat you can't play, you know,
you can't play Magic at Walmart.
And then it was, you can't playD&D, you know, in Amazon.
But, you know, there's onlinetools.
Use them as tools.
But, man, it's just so muchbetter when you game in person.
Support your local store.
(30:25):
Yeah, you may be able to findD&D for cheaper on Amazon.
Go ahead and pay a little more.
Buy it at your store.
If you see a cool game, youknow, go to your store like hey
are you able to order this it'lltake a little longer but you
know what you're going to gothere and you can put up a
message like looking for lookingfor people to play this obscure
role playing game I justacquired you know and you you'll
(30:47):
make new friends you'll meet newpeople you'll grow your
community and you know the localgame store is a wonderful place
to do it and we've you knowagain it's just an extension of
sitting around the fire tellingstories so please I'm always
adamant about support your localgame store.
In fact, early on, Amazon wasstill doing the little charity
(31:09):
thing.
So we had a link that if youbought stuff off Amazon, we'd
get like, you know, two centsoff your purchase, whatever.
I actually stopped that becauseI was like, uh, and I, uh, I
don't know if the video is stillup, but I was like, Hey, you
know, we're not going to do the,uh, Amazon nonprofit thing
because I, you know, I feel thatit's, you know, hypocritical
that I tell you, go, go to yourlocal game store, but you know,
(31:31):
also, Hey, I'll, I'll takepennies from Amazon and like you
know people like oh well we'rebuying other stuff it's like
it's just not you know i wantyou to go i mean even outside of
supporting a local game storeshop locally you know go to that
mom and pop hardware store overyou know home depot or buying
you know uh on on amazon orwhatever it everything is better
(31:53):
when you support your local uhyour local individuals and your
local game store it's it's wherethe vast majority of people in
gaming have got their startawesome dave thanks for your
time oh no worries thank youvery much
Hey, y'all.
Welcome to the Business ofGaming podcast.
I'm Josh from Gaming HavenGuild, and today we're at PAX
West with David, the founder andchief librarian of the
Alexandria RPG Library, anonprofit focused on sharing RPG
history and gameplay at largeconventions and
community-focused events.
David, can you tell us about thehistory of the library?
So, history of Alexandria RPG.
We started at Emerald City ComicCon in 2017.
(00:23):
I was the deputy manager ofgaming, and one of the other
gentlemen that works with thelibrary, he was the manager of
gaming, and I had off pan saidabout two three months before
the events and you know wealways have these board game
library why is nobody done arole-playing game library and
then about two weeks before theshow an entire room of small
vendors uh dropped some droppedout some moved to another part
(00:45):
of the show and then we ended upwith a room that we didn't have
anything for less than two weeksbefore the show and he goes hey
can you do that role-playinggame library you said you could
do my brain i'm going that's notwhat i said but i was like yeah
sure so that night i talked to afriend who lives in Iowa, and I
said, I'm going to be doing thisrole-playing game library.
I'm just going to be pulling allthe books off my shelf.
(01:06):
I don't know what to do.
And then he was like, can I mailyou some books?
Sure.
So his books got there, got tomy house the first day where I
was already up here in Seattle,away from my house, didn't know
that they got there.
I had 348 books out of my housethat I just stuffed on a shelf
and said, role-playing games arecool.
Let's talk about them.
And then that night got hisbooks.
(01:28):
They came in the day, so we gotshelved the next day so we were
like over 400 books now this isawesome and everybody kept
coming in like hey can you bringthis to our event so we had like
small events that were locallythat wanted us to come because
they were like nobody's donethis before and then there were
two little fun things thathappened one there was a young
man that came in he came runningin he had three friends he had
(01:50):
them by their hands running inthere like stumbling behind him
and he just exuberantly goesexplain role playing games I was
like uh okay and so I startedexplaining what role-playing
games are.
And a young lady that was withhim was like, so we can make
characters?
I was like, yeah.
So I grabbed a game calledDeadlands.
And I thought it was going to befun because it's very
(02:10):
interactive character building.
It's done with a deck of cards.
And they just sat there quietlyfor like two hours, these four
teenagers making characters.
And they put the books back andleft.
I was like, oh, you know, theylooked like they had fun.
You know, mission, missionsuccess.
Next day, one of the otherteenagers, he came back and he's
like, hey, the game that we madecharacters for you, Yesterday,
we went and found the books lastnight and we bought them and
(02:33):
we're going to be playing thatgame.
I was like, oh, that's awesome.
So, you know, the kid that wasexcited, he had just heard and
found out about role-playinggames.
He had gone back east for awedding and a family and like
his cousin's like, hey, let'splay a role-playing game, D&D.
And then all he could rememberwas it was a role-playing game
and couldn't remember anythingelse.
And now because of that cousinintroduced him to it and then he
(02:57):
drug his friends in and throughthe library, we We introduced
him to role-playing games, moreof them, and then they went out
and played.
And I was like, that was reallyawesome.
And then I think it was on theSaturday of that event, there
was a dad who had his13-year-old son, and it was like
six or seven friends of his son.
So Emerald City Comic Con ispretty big.
(03:20):
It's about as big as PAX.
So on the weekend, you're atlike 90,000 people that come
through.
So at any point, there's tens ofthousands of people in the
building.
And here's a dad...
hanging six or seven 13-year-oldkids around this giant
convention.
And I think he just saw, youknow, like the little sign we
had, it said role-playing gamelibrary and a shelf of books.
(03:41):
And he was like, great, this isa break.
They come in, they're asking amillion questions.
And one's like, can we play?
And before I could say no, myvolunteers are like, look, we
know where you're going to be.
If we need you, you'll be righthere.
Let these kids play role-playinggames.
So I grabbed all the D6 StarWars because everybody knows
Star Wars.
(04:02):
All you need are six-sided diceand then there's characters
already made in the back of thebook.
So one kid would like tookpicture of the character sheet
so he just had it on his phoneto use and we could pass the
books around.
The other kids were writing themdown.
And an hour later, none of themsurvived.
We started in a cantina becauseevery RPG starts in a bar or a
tavern or a cantina.
(04:22):
So they didn't even make it outof a cantina.
All the characters had died.
And I'm like, oh man, this ishorrible.
And then I get hugs from thesekids.
They were like, That wasawesome.
They give me a hug.
And then, you know, they wereout in the hall like, oh my God,
just see when I did this.
And they were just like goingover the top.
They were doing what we all do,playing role-playing games,
telling stories, retelling thestories that we just created
together.
And then I looked at the dad andlegit had like a tear in his
(04:45):
eye.
I was like, hey, is everythingokay?
He's like, I've been trying tofigure out for a couple of years
how to interest my son torole-playing games.
And you just did that for me.
I was like, oh, now I reallyhave to actually make this thing
go.
And so we started going toevents that have first year, you
know, that was 2017, startedEmerald City.
And I think we did like eightevents that year, just kind of
(05:05):
like, and it was me justdragging books to places.
We did packs that year and itwas bonkers.
You know, I was just like, okay,here I am setting up a, you
know, I, by then I had, uh, like1100 books.
Uh, so going from March of 2017to September of 2017 went from
300, 348 books to like 1100books, uh, in just that short
(05:28):
amount of time.
And, you know, I'm like, okay, Ihave a room here at PAX.
Like, what?
And then, you know, we just keepgrowing from there.
We're over 10,000 books now.
And we're in the process ofmaking plans of how to set up a
second location in the Midwestso we can get to East Coast and
Midwest stuff because...
(05:48):
trying to get to that stuff fromhere in Seattle is just insanely
expensive.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe logistics of that growth
because 10,000 books, 10,000anything is difficult to move
around.
So yeah, it was absorbing myliving room and dining room,
literally.
I was stacking stuff on thecheap foldable plastic tables
(06:09):
and broke a few because they'relike, oh, it's over.
I'd come home and all the booksare just in this V and they're
like, oh God, I got to dobetter.
And so buying shelves and when Icould afford them.
And then we're like, I got toget you storage.
So then we got a 10 by 10.
And now we've got two 10 by 10sthat are stuffed full.
And we're looking at eithergetting a 10 by 30 in climate
(06:30):
controlled storage, or we'retrying to see if we can partner
with another nonprofit thatthey've outgrown their space,
but they can't afford to go to abigger space.
So if we can work out a dealwith them to go to a bigger
space, and then we're helpingeach other out.
But it's always, we're in aconstant need of funds because
where that was kind of thepurpose of going non-profit is
(06:53):
yeah I had a friend's like youwere stupid for going non-profit
I was like paperwork's nothorribly hard we're a library so
we were able to put it down inthat and we went and that went
fairly quickly but you knowother people they're like oh I
you know talking to somegentlemen that are trying to do
similar what we're doing butwith TCGs trading card games and
collectible card games andthey're they're going through a
(07:18):
much more difficult process thanwe did because, you know, it's
like we literally have books forour library.
We go places and share bookswith people.
So our paperwork on that, it waspretty simple.
And with that, you know, uh, it,it, it's easier to solicit
donations.
I've had, I had somebody donatelike 50 limited edition, uh,
role-playing game books and, youknow, he would, you know,
(07:40):
that's, that's how I think wefigured up the value.
It was like$1,800, uh, in those,in those books, uh, you know,
And so I wrote him a tax letterwith the names of the books and,
you know, thank you.
And then he was able, you know,he went and got the values and
then his, uh, uh, his, hisaccountant figured it in.
So he got a tax write off doingthat.
(08:01):
And that's kind of the entirereason to do the nonprofit for
us.
Because we we've never mademoney.
In fact, for many years, we wereout of pocket 10 plus thousand
dollars a year.
So myself and other people, youknow, putting our own funds in
it to make it go.
And, you know, people were like,oh, When does this go from a
passion project to an actualthing?
(08:23):
I'm like, it's always been anactual thing.
It's just us figuring out how toget to the people and get more
than just books.
I tell everybody we operate offof three types of donations,
time, books, and money.
Doing good on books.
And as we expand, many of thecompanies that have been
donating books to us, new books,understand that now as we're
(08:45):
expanding, instead of, hey,here's a copy of our new book,
they're going to have to do acouple copies because we're
going to be in multiple places.
And they're excited about that.
Getting volunteers, that's beena long road, but why we can
expand to a new location is wehave a really great set of
people that volunteer to come dothese events with us.
(09:05):
So like for PAX West, PAX gaveus a 50 by 50 booth space with
15 tables and then gave us, Ithink we had 50 badges.
And so we had people that comein and volunteered as
librarians.
So they rehau reshell books.
They talk to people aboutrole-playing games and then the
like, then we have our GMs or wecall them game hosts because we
(09:29):
have a variety of games.
And so our, our game hosts willsit down, you know, they're
running a huge variety of games,uh, sometimes D and D, but you
know, like a big one thisweekend has been dagger heart.
Uh, geez, uh, do, uh, what's itdread.
Uh, dread is super popular.
Uh, we usually have that one runin the evenings.
Cause it's supposed to be alittle more, you know, horror
(09:50):
suspenseful.
Yeah.
That's not really when you wereon earth, you know, like 10
o'clock in the morning showopen, let's play dread.
Um, we have a lot of star Wars.
There's a ton of like classicgames and super fun.
So those are all those, thosefun little logistics pieces and
getting the, uh, the volunteersand getting the books donated.
(10:10):
We're been good on that.
And you know, we always struggleon that money piece.
Uh, some of the events pay us tocome.
Uh, it's not a lot of money, butthey see the value that we add.
Cause they're like, oh, Hey, wegive them this space.
We give them a few, a few bucksto make sure that they can get
here, get parking.
Some, some, sometimes eventswill give us hotel rooms and
stuff.
So, uh, we have GMs that arecoming from out of town.
(10:32):
We can put them up, you know, inthat room.
Uh, and that helps out becausewe're not paying for that out of
pocket.
man there's just so many littlepieces that you never thought
you would be dealing with and Imean the first two years was
just me going places like hey Ihave 1500 pounds of books I'm
going to put these shelves upand I'm going to set them up and
then I'm going to run a couplegames then I'm going to get the
(10:56):
attendees to run games and westill do that to this day but
like here we had 170 pre-plannedgames going off before show
opened so volunteers coming in,running those games.
And then we still have tablesthat set aside, oh, do you want
to run a game?
Great.
(11:16):
You saw this cool game, Vasen,from Free League.
Here you go.
Here's the books.
Here's pencils, paper, dice.
And then we help find themplayers.
And then they sit down and playthe game.
And they're all like, yay, weplayed a game.
And then it's value added forthe events.
Because not only is it our hostsrunning games, then and they
(11:38):
have attendees running games.
So everybody's walking away withthat cool, extra special memory.
Like, oh, I played thisrole-playing game I never played
before.
And then we did this.
And then they'll start into therole-playing game stories
because it's what we all do whenwe play role-playing games.
Why the emphasis on role-playinggames?
Role-playing games are awesomefor a bazillion reasons and the
(11:58):
gaming industry.
So whenever I message on socialmedia or whatever, I always
capitalize game because Itdoesn't matter who you are when
you come into the library, whatyou sit down and you're gonna be
gaming.
You're hopefully anotherfriendly face, but in this day
and age, everybody, they're justangry people behind their thumbs
(12:21):
on a phone.
You don't know what the otherperson is or why they said what
they did, but if you can sitdown and game with somebody,
you're gonna leave that table abetter person because you've
spent time with somebody youknow nothing about.
You could be a Republicansitting down with a Democrat.
You could be a Communist sittingdown with a, whatever you are,
(12:44):
and you're gonna sit down andgame with someone you know
nothing about, and you're gonnahave a good time, and that's
somebody that you might havebeen angry at because of how
they posted something on socialmedia, and you're like, oh,
you're a horrible, evil person,and then you don't know any of
that, and you sit down, and oh,man, that guy was great.
She had some cool ideas, andthat got us through a sticky
(13:07):
spot in this adventure.
And...
We used to be like that.
We've always been people angryat other people, but sitting
around telling stories around acampfire, we've been doing that
as humans for hundreds ofthousands of years.
We're just doing that with rulesand somebody to direct us, your
(13:28):
game host, your GM, whatever youwant to call them.
They're just directing the storyand everybody sitting at that
table is building us up.
And just sit down and go out andgame with people and just be a
better person.
That's what the role of But canyou walk us back through kind of
the basics of setting up anonprofit?
How's that different thanrunning for-profit business?
(13:50):
Oh, well, for us, there is noway that we could do what we do
for profit just because, I mean,how do we do that?
So, yeah.
Our options were to exist as anon-entity and just trust that
organizations would give usspace.
As a nonprofit, it gives anavenue for the books and time
(14:15):
donations.
So if somebody's working forGoogle or Microsoft and they
volunteer hours for us, theyactually can register those and
we get paid for their hours,which is super cool.
So they come to an event, run afour-hour game.
We get paid, depending on...
the organization we get paid uhfor that four hours which is
(14:35):
nice it's a win-win for you knowus and but yeah there's no way
we could do this as a for-profitthing because we just like
everybody's like oh are thesebooks for sale and it's like no
no they're not please you knowwe put signs around like this is
a library none of these booksare for sale uh because if we're
doing it for sale uh we i don'tthink we'd get the support uh
(14:56):
setting up as a non-profit uh iwent through an attorney who sat
me down And he's like, okay,here's what we need to do.
And anything, anytime you'redoing anything, legal paperwork,
guys, spend a few bucks to getan attorney.
Find one that, I found somebodythat specialized in nonprofits.
So, and he's looking through,he's like, oh, well, you're a
(15:18):
library.
So this is easy.
We can do, you know, and heended up, uh, actually giving us
the, his time for free becausehe's a role-playing nerd.
He was like, I really like whatyou're doing.
This is a neat idea.
So kind of lucked out on thatone.
But, uh, you know, he sat downlike, how do we classify you and
(15:38):
seeing that.
We have books and we, you know,loan books out and talk to
people about books.
It was easy to sign us up as a,uh, uh, as a, uh, like we're
education library is like, Ithink of it, how the subset
goes.
Nonprofit or for profit.
It's still a business.
We don't sell anything.
And so therefore all the moneywe take in our donations.
(16:00):
So we have little bits andpieces out and we do it.
They, we, we jokingly call itthe PBS model.
So somebody donates$5, they canget a sticker.
You donate$15, you can get acool pin.
Uh, we started a cool littlething.
Hey, we, in our, our, uh, boardmember group, we're like, what
about an adopted die?
You know, it's like pet rock.
(16:21):
So we got these little boxes,put paper in them, uh, uh,
companies that had donated diceto us.
We put those in the differentboxes and then we came up with
little back names andbackstories for all the dice.
So just like the humane society.
Yeah.
Here's Alfie.
He's adorable.
Little kitty, blah, blah, blah.
You know, and it's like, he's,he's good.
with other pets.
He came from a hoarder's home of100 cats.
(16:44):
And so we do something similarwith all the dice.
It's like, this is Chad.
Chad is a winner-take-all typedie.
He will do good in a home thatloves backyard wrestling.
And so somebody makes adonation, and we suggest about
$20.
There's time and stuff, and wedo need to get funding.
(17:06):
So we have to do all the thingsthat a standard business does,
like, okay, how much do thosestickers cost us because I can't
take a$5 donation for a stickerif the stickers cost me$5
because I'm negative funds atthat point.
I actually had somebody complainlike, oh, you're taking
donations for these?
(17:26):
This is kind of expensive.
I was like, do you kind ofunderstand what we're trying to
do here?
I grew up in a comic book andgame store as a kid, so we got
people all the time like, whatare you charging so much?
Well, sir, that's the coverprice of the comic.
So Marvel said that's what weshould charge.
So I'm going to charge you thatmuch.
(17:48):
I always love that one.
Like, can I get this cheaper?
No.
Well, it's last month's issue.
Okay.
So it's now a back issue.
Let me go grade it and price itand it'll be more expensive.
How about in terms of runningthe business then what's, but
some of the surprise you as achallenge.
I mean, just.
The craziest thing for me was Istruggled early on letting
(18:11):
anybody help me because it wasthis weird thing that I started.
So 2017, 2018, literallyeverywhere I was going, I was
doing everything by myself.
PAX 2018.
two weeks or less than two weeksprior to the show um Wizards of
the Coast and Paizo both pulledout so I was now the only role
(18:35):
playing game thing at PAX West2018 and I had a room with like
10 tables and all the stuff andthen I just said uh I'll run a
couple games and then everybodyyou know I just I ended up that
entire weekend being the crazyscheduler like somebody's like
oh hey I want to run 30 editionGamma World at two o'clock
(18:56):
tomorrow.
I was like, sir, I don't havethe third edition Gamma World.
I do.
I'll bring all the stuff.
So, you know, hand jamming thesesignup sheets and taping them to
the wall outside of the room wewere at in the Olive Eight.
And so we were in a hotel awayfrom the main show and we ended
up hosting well over a hundredgames that weekend.
And almost all of that, I thinkI ran two games and all the rest
(19:17):
were attendees.
It was just mind boggling thereception we had from
individuals.
And after that, the showrunnerswere packed.
So a lot of the people withinthe organization, they've been
really awesome to us.
And they were like, you reallypulled us out of a fire on that
one because they didn't knowwhat they were going to do
because they'd advertised therewas going to be role-playing
(19:38):
games.
And well, we did role-playinggames.
At one point, we had like 20games going and none of them
were the same game, which isjust super cool because you're
like, oh, there's D&D 5thedition, 3rd edition, 1st
edition.
There's Star Wars.
There's Deadland.
And there, you know, you're justlooking around and you're like,
nothing is the same.
And you're like, that was so funto see.
(20:00):
And because we only had 10tables, there were people like
literally sitting on benches outin the hallway, like four
players sitting on one end and aGM sitting on the other end and
playing.
And then it was like talkingdown the row of players.
And, you know, that was superfun to see.
And it was like, and howdedicated, you know, we as
gamers can be.
(20:21):
What do you see coming up forthe library?
So where we're headed is, is sowe've grown so much and because
of that, uh, we can't get to allthe shows East coast because
like the last time we did GenCon, it costs us, uh, just to
get me and the books out therewas about$5,000.
And so that, that$5,000, yes,Gen Con is awesome to get to,
(20:44):
but that limits, we can't getmore books.
That's, you know, that's severalmonths, you know, between all
the things we do, that isseveral months of acquiring
books, uh, get paying for theclimate controlled storage
because the books don't go intothe standard public storage
that's out stores and everythinggets moldy and wet.
It goes into an indoor climatecontrolled storage.
(21:07):
We've completely filled two 10by 10 storage units.
I have to move stuff out of theway and roll shelves out to
curate a new thing.
So We've been looking at all theevents that we want to do.
And for the last few years,like, how do we do those?
So, um, my wife and I areliterally going to move from
Seattle to the Indianapolis areain the next couple of years and
(21:29):
set up start fresh ish therebecause.
Everything is still going to gohere.
I have a great crew of peoplethat are up here.
I trust them.
And because of that, I know thatI can take the core of what
we're doing here and startgoing.
And from Indianapolis, we canget to Gen Con because it's
(21:49):
right there.
We can get to all the events inthe Chicago area because it's a
three, four hour drive.
We can get to PAX Unplugged upin Philly.
That's a 10-ish hour drive.
Just everything.
had three people uh inviting usto events in uh um upstate new
york uh massachusetts and it'slike all these people and not
knowing that we're gonna we'retrying to do this expand and
(22:12):
they're like how do we get youout there i was like you guys
got to pay for the ship, theship, the books.
And they're like, we might beable to swing that.
And I was like, okay.
And a hotel room.
Uh, and food is like, how farcan I push this?
But, uh, so the, our midtermgoal now is getting, uh, my wife
(22:32):
and I moved out to the, uh, theMidwest so that we can set up
that next hub so that we canexpand to all the shows in the
rest of the U S because man, we,we get asked all the time.
Like, can you, come out todifferent shows.
It's like, no, we want to.
What are things you think thetabletop industry in particular
(22:53):
could do better to supportnonprofits in this space?
So we're not the only, I mean,we're the only thing that does
what we do, but there are othernonprofits.
There's a lot of like mentalhealth nonprofits that need just
people a few bucks in games anddice and stuff so that they can
(23:16):
keep their outreach to veteransand the groups that they're
servicing.
They can try to help set up incities like youth gaming groups
because getting to kids,especially teens that are
starting to get in a littletrouble, and if you can sit them
(23:37):
down at a role-playing gametable, we get to teach you
teamwork, social skills,communication, all the things
that we're kind of bad atteaching kids nowadays.
We can do that throughrole-playing games.
And if we can get companiesinvolved, you know, doing that
in their local areas or reachingout, you know, Hey, we've got a
game designer that grew up in,you know, um, Scranton, uh, you
(24:00):
know, and you know, there's no,no game company there.
So it was like, Hey, you knowwhat?
I grew up in Scranton.
Uh, let's find a, uh, find a,um, uh, uh, like a teen center.
or a local store and partnerwith them so they can set up
these gaming nights for teens.
Those are great ways to reachout to, you know, some like
(24:22):
small local nonprofits, workwith nonprofits that are trying
to work with individuals inprison and the, you know, people
that are released from prisonnow on parole.
And it's like here in Washingtonstate, up until our current
secretary of state came in,role-playing games were banned
in prisons here.
(24:44):
And secretary of state came inand he's somebody, you know, I,
I know through gaming, he's a,he's a big nerd.
And I had said, you know, I wastrying to figure out how to get
into prisons here in Washingtonstate.
And he's like, why can't you?
And I was like, I've just,everyone I've talked to is kind
of no.
And then he like his second weekin, uh, in the position as
secretary of state.
And he was like, okay, why can'twe do role-playing games in
(25:06):
prisons?
Oh, it was just a standing orderfrom way previous, uh, uh,
secretary of state from theeighties just said role-playing
games are banned from prisons inWashington state.
And he was like, done that, thatband's gone.
Like, he's like, I control theprisons and stuff in the state.
So I can rescind that, uh, youknow, that standing order from
(25:26):
40 years ago.
And so we like here inWashington state, we, we, we
have people that are gettingrole-playing games into prisons,
but once they get out, a lot ofpeople, while they're on parole,
there's restrictions.
Like you can't be around, uh,you know, certain people, people
that, especially we've donestupid stuff with.
But a lot of people on parole,they have a drinking
restriction.
(25:47):
And a lot of the game stores yougo to nowadays, they sell beer.
So you have somebody who'sgotten away from, you know,
like, hey, trying torehabilitate in prison.
I'm playing role-playing games.
Now that I'm out, I can't go toa local game store and play
because they sell alcohol.
I don't want the stores to stopselling alcohol because that's
actually great for adult,late-time gaming, and it's
(26:10):
really good for the stores.
But there are nonprofits thatgame companies can reach out to
say, hey, is there a way we cando parolee gaming?
It's like, hey, come here.
It's a nice, quiet place.
There's going to be no alcohol,no drugs.
It's a nice, controlled place.
And you have that continuing...
(26:30):
care.
Game companies should bereaching out with addiction
centers.
Because the best way to fightaddiction is finding a
replacement.
And role-playing games aregreat.
I have worked with a coupleaddiction centers and taught
some of their individuals how toplay role-playing games.
(26:50):
And they show that and play withthe people, not as a therapy
thing, but as like, hey, haveyou thought about playing these?
And then when they get done withtheir treatment, they're now
like oh I got an itch and thenthey write write something write
a new write up a bunch of NPCsor write a new scenario and then
oh next Tuesday I have a I havea you know I got a game with the
(27:11):
with with my friends and it'slike and then you know after
that game if they're having runslike okay next Tuesday I have a
game so they they have thatthing to look forward to every
week they have all the littlethings that we can do with
role-playing games scratchesitches so those are a lot of
little things and I encouragegame stores to do that as well
so if you're a local game store,you can reach out to find the
(27:33):
addiction centers in your areaand give them some copies of
role-playing games and find away for them to help grow your
community and give them a newavenue to be a productive member
of society.
It's amazing what we can do withthese fun, silly storytelling
games with rules.
(27:54):
It's just collaborativestorytelling with rules.
Well, to someone listening who'sgot an idea for some sort of non
in the tabletop space, whatadvice would you give?
have a passion.
Uh, I know, I know a bunch ofpeople that have done like
political type of nonprofits andthey literally started them
because they know they can makemoney off of them.
(28:15):
If you're going to do somethingin this space as a nonprofit,
you probably not going to makemoney and you have to want to do
what you're going to do.
So it's have that passion andmake sure, you know, you accept
the help from others.
Because if I, if I wouldn't haveaccepted help from others, I,
this would have been a gone longtime ago.
I probably would have burned outI deployed to Iraq and Syria in
(28:38):
2019 and 2020.
And for the library to keepgoing through that 2019 and
early 2020, I had to have otherpeople help out.
So my wife stepped up and tookover a bunch of stuff.
And then there was other, I wasdoing interviews with game
designers from various locationsin Iraq.
(29:00):
And then in 2021, I was inUkraine.
So I'm in the middle of nowhereUkraine in the dark on my phone,
doing an interview, a liveinterview.
Uh, and it's like, okay, I cando this at like two o'clock in
the morning, Ukrainian time sothat we can live stream it at a,
at a reasonable time in, uh, inthe US.
So, you know, and, and, and allof that was possible because I
(29:23):
had that passion and I was ableto accept the help from other
people that had offered it.
I didn't know how to accept it.
Let's, uh, let someone else helpyou, especially if they should
share a bit of that passion withyou.
You'll burn out if you don't.
And whatever you're doing, youknow, you're not going to make
money off of it.
(29:44):
You're not going to do it forvery long.
And whatever you've started mayhave been the most awesome thing
in your area, and then it'sgone.
And, you know, somebody's like,well, that didn't succeed, so I
won't do it either.
Any last thoughts for us?
Always support your local gamestore.
Sometimes you may have a badgame store.
Support them until you get abetter one.
(30:04):
But You know, we've always jokedthat you can't play, you know,
you can't play Magic at Walmart.
And then it was, you can't playD&D, you know, in Amazon.
But, you know, there's onlinetools.
Use them as tools.
But, man, it's just so muchbetter when you game in person.
Support your local store.
(30:25):
Yeah, you may be able to findD&D for cheaper on Amazon.
Go ahead and pay a little more.
Buy it at your store.
If you see a cool game, youknow, go to your store like hey
are you able to order this it'lltake a little longer but you
know what you're going to gothere and you can put up a
message like looking for lookingfor people to play this obscure
role playing game I justacquired you know and you you'll
(30:47):
make new friends you'll meet newpeople you'll grow your
community and you know the localgame store is a wonderful place
to do it and we've you knowagain it's just an extension of
sitting around the fire tellingstories so please I'm always
adamant about support your localgame store.
In fact, early on, Amazon wasstill doing the little charity
(31:09):
thing.
So we had a link that if youbought stuff off Amazon, we'd
get like, you know, two centsoff your purchase, whatever.
I actually stopped that becauseI was like, uh, and I, uh, I
don't know if the video is stillup, but I was like, Hey, you
know, we're not going to do the,uh, Amazon nonprofit thing
because I, you know, I feel thatit's, you know, hypocritical
that I tell you, go, go to yourlocal game store, but you know,
(31:31):
also, Hey, I'll, I'll takepennies from Amazon and like you
know people like oh well we'rebuying other stuff it's like
it's just not you know i wantyou to go i mean even outside of
supporting a local game storeshop locally you know go to that
mom and pop hardware store overyou know home depot or buying
you know uh on on amazon orwhatever it everything is better
(31:53):
when you support your local uhyour local individuals and your
local game store it's it's wherethe vast majority of people in
gaming have got their startawesome dave thanks for your
time oh no worries thank youvery much
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