EMERGENCY EPISODE: ICE Raids and Protest Safety in Chicago

TW/CW: Discussion of ICE Raids, civilian violence

This emergency episode responds to the ongoing ICE raids taking place in Chicago, which have left many in the Chicago communities vulnerable and at-risk. I’m joined by my return guest, friend, and community organizer Jung Messinger, to break down what’s happening right now, how these raids impact community members, and what you can do to stay safe and aware of what is happening. Jung also shares critical protest safety tips, know-your-rights information, and resources to help protect yourself and support others. At a time when fear is high, this episode centers on both urgent action and community care.

For more on protestor safety tips, community resources, and other ways to support the resistance movement, please check out

https://randykim.substack.com/p/ice-raids-and-protest-safety-in-chicago

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hey everyone, this is Randy Kim from the Bunley Chronicles
podcast. So today I decided that we are
going to do an emergency episodeand I'm bringing in a familiar
guest. I actually shared last week's
episode on and I have a very good feeling that this is not

(00:24):
going to be the last time you'regoing to be on my show.
I think the way things are goingand I think there's a reason why
I feel like you're going to be. I feel like the things that I
have known about you, the work that you do is going to be very
critical, especially since now then I'm back and I have a lot
of concerns about what's happening in our communities.
So with that said, I do want to issue a trigger warning that the

(00:48):
episode we will talk about will be very challenging and
upsetting at times because it won't involve what is happening
with ICE both locally in Chicagowhere we reside, and nationally.
What has been happening, there will be mentions of, of violence

(01:10):
against civilians, protesters. And we also hope that by
listening that this will help toinform you rather than alarming
you and, and thinking about waysin which we can or you can
support the work that is protecting communities and also

(01:32):
being able to have important conversations with people in
your life about what is happening.
So with that said, Zhang has been a person who has been
community organizing, done mutual aid work and has
supported, you know, the safety of protesters.
So, you know, Zhang, thank you so much for being on at the last

(01:53):
minute again. I mean, you know, who knew that
I would have you twice in like the past couple of days, but
here we are. But we're doing the most
important work, you know, you'redoing.
Thank. You for having me back from the
people who brought you the bonusepisode.
We are now back with the emergency episode.
Maybe someday in the future we will have a fully planned

(02:13):
episode. Yeah, and hopefully it'll be
more fun one this. Time.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. But like you said, I, you know,
I'm, I'm grateful that we can have this conversation in the
midst of all that's happening. And I am.
Yeah. I want to, I want to make sure

(02:35):
that folks know that we aren't being alarmist.
Like, and in my experience of helping people to say stay safe
when they're on the streets, as well as my experience as a doula
and and the care worker. I know that often it's, it's

(02:58):
great to have more information rather than less information.
But like the anxiety and fear ofuncertainty comes when we, we
don't know what's going to happen.
And so I share this information.Randy has asked me to share this
information in the spirit of in the spirit of knowledge and in

(03:23):
the spirit of building, buildingour own power and autonomy and
self determination and skills. The more that we know together,
the safer we can be and the better that we can take care of
each other. And that just makes us more

(03:44):
powerful across the board, whatever we're doing.
So thank. You, Randy?
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing
this in for starting it off likewith this, with this framework
that we are going to have on this ongoing very traumatizing
situation here last week. We have seen protesters like

(04:07):
across the US, specifically in places like Portland, Chicago
and like in Broadview, which is like outside of Chicago.
And in this case, there were protesters that were, you know,
like in front of the ICE detention center.
And during that peaceful protest, I mean, there is video

(04:28):
footage of what was happening. ICE, you know, decided to take
matters into their own hand, go rogue and physically assault the
protesters who were there peacefully.
And also there were ICE agents on the rooftops, you know, using
rubber guns. I'm not so good with the names

(04:51):
here. But like, but they were using
any kind of weapons to harm, harm protesters.
And this is a situation that hasonly escalated.
And then last night, yesterday on, you know, Thursday night,
Friday morning, ICE came into a predominantly black community in

(05:12):
the South Side South Shore of Chicago community and decided to
go without any any warrants, barge into apartment buildings
where black families were livingin.
And we're also talking U.S. citizens on top of it.
So it's like this kind of shows where the direction that the

(05:33):
federal government is taking this and also what is currently
happening in this landscape as things start to really build up.
So I think this is really important to like show what is
happening. What can you share about the
history of ICE in Chicago, and what do you know about about its

(05:56):
presence you know? Yeah.
So I, I, I, I don't necessarily have like a full timeline of ICE
in Chicago, but I can share a few things about Ice's presence
in Broadview as well as kind of what's been happening over the
last, the last month or so. So I always like to remind folks

(06:21):
that ICE is ICE is relatively young as a as as a government
agency, the Department of Homeland Security that it's
under was created in in the wakeof 911 and the extreme like
Islamophobia and racism and xenophobia that happened both

(06:45):
culturally, but also legislatively after that event.
And so ISIS only really existed since 2003.
So like, you know, like you, it wasn't even around like when you
and I, we're like aging ourselves a little bit here.
But like when you and I were in high school, like ice did not

(07:05):
exist. So like even though in you know,
compared to like Gen. alpha and Gen.
Z, like we are like the melders.Like it is still like right.
It's still it's still like relatively young melders.
I'm elder, middle elders, but ICE is still relatively young.
And so because of that, like thefacility in Broadview, it opened

(07:29):
as what's called like a staging facility in 2006.
So it's also relatively new. Like it's not brand new.
It has been there for a couple of decades, but it hasn't been
there forever, right? And like, Chicago, I know it's
like a transplant here, someone who wasn't born here or like
didn't grow up here. I know that like there are

(07:51):
places in Chicago, they have deep history, you know, like
that the like dive bar on the corner is like probably been
around for like 45 years, right.So like the fact that this
staging facility in Broadview, so-called staging facility
hasn't even been around 20 yearsmeans that like it has a
presence there, but it hasn't been there forever, which means

(08:12):
that like it could eventually not be there again someday.
And let's imagine that future. But that being said, it's the
the facility there at Broadview,it's been publicized as a site
where people are supposed to be held temporarily before they're
transferred elsewhere in the country.

(08:33):
It's been reported throughout the years as well as like some
some very recent lawsuits for really terrible and violent and
inhumane conditions such as likethere's a lack of food, a lack
of beds, a lack of clean conditions, like no medical
care, all of that. And protests have been happening

(08:56):
there for years. As well as like in this kind of
current iteration of protests have been happening there over
the past few months. And there's currently an active
campaign to shut it down that has like waxed and waned over
the years. And I've included a link about
that campaign in in the the episode notes so that listeners

(09:20):
and, and folks who are watching this video will be able to
connect to that campaign. But in in late, around late
August, early September, the federal government announced
that that that Broadview facility was going to be the
primary processing Center for the ICE area, upper the Chicago
area ice operations for like thenext the two months that

(09:42):
followed. So like this period that we're
in previous to that, like they have been doing a lot of the
processing and holding at other facilities throughout the city.
And I think because of the action from autonomous community
members and organized community groups that was happening to try
and interrupt operations at those facilities, they decided

(10:05):
to have that happen elsewhere. And so most recently, activists
and community leaders have been organizing actions on Fridays
and Saturdays. And so some of that is that has
been the some of the most recentpublicity where like lots of
pictures, news stories, exposureof where ICE and Customs and

(10:33):
Border Patrol CBP agents have been using physical force.
They've been using a number of chemical weapons, including tear
gas, pepper spray and pepper balls, which are both like a
solid projectile, but also a like a gas that happens upon
explosion as well as rubber bullets.

(10:54):
And they've been using those against the protesters that are
there against impacted families,folks who are like coming to
these facilities trying to like,like, like find their family
members on journalists who are like clearly labeled as press on
St. medics on legal and on legalworkers as well as on I have

(11:18):
heard that they have used them on 1st responders in, in the
town of, of Broadview as well. That like these ICE agents and
CBP agents have been tear gassing and pepper spraying the
police of like the police of Broadview.
And that's what Broadview has like most recently become most

(11:39):
upset about that. Like their police have been tear
gassed. And one of the so right now,
like very recently, ICE put up afence around that facility, in
Broad, around their facility in Broadview.
And this was against the wishes,I believe, of the the elected

(12:01):
officials in Broadview. And so, yeah, when you go there,
there's just like a ton of fencing.
There are often ICE agents and CBP agents who are on the roof
of the facility and these agentsare, you know, patrolling with

(12:24):
weapons and hands. So whether they're on the ground
and on the roof, they're wearingnon medical face coverings,
which I like as a person who is immunocompromised.
And so it like a a little bit elevated risk for COVID exposure
as well as like other communicable diseases.
Like I'm regularly wearing like AKN 95 type mask like in public

(12:48):
like all public spaces but the the face coverings that these
agents are wearing are of the non medical kinds.
They also are frequently wearinggas masks, helmets and like a
lot of other militarized gear, in addition to like their
fatigue uniforms, which can be if folks are encountering that,

(13:10):
like, it can be really jarring. It can be really hard to tell,
like, are these ICE agents? Are these CBP agents?
Like, is this National Guard? Is this someone who may have
just like bought a whole bunch of gear off of the Internet?
Like we're not sure. And so regardless of like who it

(13:30):
is in this uniform, like it's a terrifying, it can be a
terrifying situation to come across.
I think when I was looking at your notes and you mentioned
like in late August, early September, the federal
government announced that the Broadview facility will be the
primary processing Center for Chicago area ice operations for
the next one to two months. Now with that said, do you have

(13:55):
and inkling as to what their next move is after those two
months and are we looking at potentially new ice centers
being created throughout the city?
That that's a question I'm thinking about.
I have, yeah, that's a really big question.
And I, I don't know, one of the things that I have learned just

(14:18):
in my, in my like community workin general is that governments
are very unpredictable, even if they are, you know, being led by
folks that like we have elected and still support.
And so when a government is being led by people who are

(14:38):
unpredictable and are not necessarily values aligned with
us, like that makes it even harder to tell what they are
going to do. And because I am not necessarily
as in part of the like, nonprofit infrastructure for
like, immigrant justice work there, there are likely people

(15:01):
who like, know, know things about that that I that I do not.
Yeah. I.
Also my, my, my scope is, is a lot more focused on like keeping
people safe when they are like on the ground, yeah.
And but that's like, I'm very curious, like for folks that are

(15:23):
not aware of the differences between ICE agents, military,
National Guard, police, and people cosplaying as either of
those, I'm very curious what have you or other folks that you
know have observed these differences and what they can

(15:45):
and cannot do? So one thing that I will say
about about any sort of police force, whether they are a local
police force like the Chicago police or the Broadview police,
a state police force like the Illinois State Police or federal
police force. Yeah.

(16:07):
A federal police force like the FBI border control or ICE agents
or military forces like active duty army that's typically
deployed like outside the US or National Guard, which would be
deployed inside the US is that there might be individual

(16:29):
regardless of what individual people's motives are or
personalities are or intentions are, these are typically groups
of people that are not supporting community safety.
So I will just say that First off, that ICE and, and Customs

(16:52):
and Border Patrol as well as theFBI, those are federal agents,
which means that if they were topick you up off the street, that
they, you would go through a, a different type of like judicial
system and like jail and prison system.
You would be at like the, the federal.

(17:14):
Whereas if you were picked up, say by like Chicago police, you
would go through like a local system.
And so that, you know, legally there are differences and like
who can then like find and support you.
Like if you are connected to thecity system, then an office like

(17:36):
this, the like city public defender's office is more likely
to be able to find you and support you rather than if you
were going through the federal system, unfortunately, because
they might not have access to that information.
Another, another thing that I want to mention, even though,

(17:58):
you know, practices like like unlawful search and seizure are,
you know, part of what the police do on a regular basis,
especially to racialized communities, particularly black
communities. I will say that one of the
things that is that is specific to US immigration police is that

(18:22):
US immigration law allows Customs and Border Patrol to do
warrantless searches. And this can be of buses, of
planes, of boats, of your personeverywhere within the 100 miles
of a land or water border. So when people hear like within

(18:42):
100 miles of a border, they think like, oh, within 100 miles
of like the, the border with Mexico and South and then the
border with Canada and the north.
But it's also the water borders.So because in Chicago, like we
live on one of the Great Lakes, that is also considered a water
border. So if you just like you can go

(19:04):
on the Internet and find these maps pretty easily.
I think I've also linked to one in the episode notes.
But if you just look for like CBP 100 mile zone, you will find
a map that outlines that. And the ACLU, you know, a group
like groups like the ACLU have filed lawsuits against this,

(19:28):
saying that it is like this. It is harmful to the population,
of course, 'cause it's like allowing warrantless searches
and seizures. And like in in their education
and lawsuits, they have shared that like 2/3 of the US
population lives within these areas.

(19:49):
Because of its coastal areas. It is like a lot of large urban
areas in the Great Lakes. Depending on how small your
state is, like, it could be yourentire state.
So like, because Florida is likecompletely surrounded by water,
like, it includes all of Florida.
It includes like all of a place.Like, like New Jersey, it

(20:12):
includes all of the place. Well, it includes a huge chunk
of California, the coast in California.
It includes like, you know, all of like a place like Rhode
Island, that sort of thing. So I think that those are really
important things to know about about these federal agents.

(20:35):
I think one of the things that Ido that I have seen on the
Internet that I'm not sure is helpful is, you know, I do know
that there is a lot of fear thatlike people are people are or
are going to start buying like buying fake gear on the Internet
and kind of like showing up to like kidnap people without

(20:57):
necessarily necessary authority.But I do know that there has
been a strain of people saying that like these can't be real
from the beginning have been saying that like these folks
can't be real ICE agents becauseof how harmful they are.
And I actually want to under score that like, no, this is
kind of, this is like what ICE has been all along, regardless

(21:19):
of whether they have been operating under a Trump
presidency or for instance, under an Obama presidency.
Like this is what ICE was designed to do.
I would say. Like the system of ice as it was
created is not necessarily broken.
It is operating as it was intended to operate.

(21:43):
And because it is operating as it was intended to operate,
which is in a very harmful way, that the best way that we can
address it is to actually question whether a system like
it should exist at all. Thank you so much and what I
also and wondering is with protesters getting harmed

(22:05):
physically harmed, I also wonderlike if they're getting
arrested, what has that looked like so far from like being able
to get released and the league the the legal services that are
provided to them. I'm also curious about that and
also with civilians that are getting forcibly kidnapped and

(22:27):
disappeared. I'm also, I know they're two
separate topics, but they're also like, it's the legal, it's
the legal resources. What is the opportunity to try
to get them out of prison? Yeah, those are really good
questions. I don't have full answers to

(22:47):
them because I don't do a ton ofwork on the legal side, but I
have included a couple of resources in the episode notes.
1 is 1 is a link from web page for the National Lawyers Guild
about like you know when your rights at protests and like how
they connect with them. And then another kind of know

(23:09):
your rights ish type resource iswith the Illinois Coalition for
Immigrant and Refugee rights forits family support network.
So this both provides information to for folks to know
their rights in a number of different circumstances as well
as to can connect people who need legal resources.

(23:33):
I do know that there have been folks who have been arrested at
protests like in, in many situations like ice will ice the
ice agents will like surround somebody or will like go up to
somebody and then they will, they have like taken those

(23:55):
people like back into the ice facility.
It is like very scary to watch because it is it, it feels and
looks very targeted and very direct, which is really
horrifying. It's, even though it is
something that has happened before and something that people
may have seen before, even if itis not new.

(24:18):
I, I, I hope that for many of usit continues to be shocking to
the extent that it continues to horrify us.
What I will say is that some of the people who have been
arrested have been released withcitations, and some of the

(24:39):
people have been brought up on federal charges.
There's not necessarily much more I can say about that.
But what I will say is that arresting #1 arresting people
for protesting is unacceptable #2 targeting journalists in the

(25:00):
press is unacceptable, and #3 that separating people from
families and like, shipping themoff to various facilities is
like not the way to like have safety in our communities.
And I just want to like share a lot of appreciation, gratitude

(25:23):
for both movement lawyers who are doing a lot of work to
support protesters, as well as immigration lawyers who are
doing a lot of work to support people who are experiencing
detention or deportation and family reunification.
Because that both of those typesof legal work are strenuous and

(25:50):
hard and often very overlooked. And I know that our communities
are better off with those legal resources there.
I also wonder about. I think this is.
I think this is kind of where I'm really trying to process all

(26:11):
this information here. I wonder about the the
situations where people are protesting for the first time or
actually fairly inexperienced, Ishould say.
Like if it's not a a nice protest, it could be like a no

(26:35):
kings protests or you know, or anything, you know, that's
related to the Trump administration.
What does the landscape look like for protesters?
What should protesters or people, civilians who are
entering into those spaces, whether they're there to protest
or just happen to be walking by?You know, I'm curious as to what

(27:00):
really people should be preparedfor what they're seeing and what
safety looks like during this time.
I mean, that's a really huge question.
Like safe, I feel like we could have you could have like an
entire episode series on what safety looks like during these

(27:23):
times because of this. It's it's so many things that
like really, I think connect back to, you know, like the the
root causes of why injustice exists.
So I won't go into like all of that.
I'll like stay thinking about protest especially, but would it

(27:47):
be would it be helpful to me to kind of like walk through like
protest preparation or or that sort of.
Absolutely. I think protest, yeah, protest
preparation is something that I feel is very important for
anyone that is going in there without the full knowledge or
context of what is currently happening, because the goal post

(28:08):
keeps moving in terms of protestin the way that the police state
is responding in ways. So I also think it's important
to kind of like acknowledge thatthere's some shifting goal posts
and it's not always the same, but it carries a lot of that
same risk. Yeah.
So before I move into like talking about protest logistics,

(28:33):
there are there's some things that I have been that I have
been thinking about related to like left strategy or like, you
know, what is what is it going to take for us to win?
And like those are really big questions that I don't have the
answer to. And I don't, I don't know that

(28:54):
like I am, I am the always the best person to talk about
strategy. But what I do know is, and what
I have seen over the past three years is that like what we're
both like, what we're doing is not fully effective.

(29:15):
So like it might be working, butit's not like working enough.
And also that like there is, there is huge opposition to
protest from like a lot of political actors and a lot of
folks who have. Hey Mochi.

(29:35):
Hey, Mochi. Who have like a lot of a lot of
political orientations. We're just going to wait for
Mochi to like jump into jump into the low to the low like
rolly cart that I have sitting next to my work area.
This that's that's my cat Mochi.And so I think that, you know,

(30:00):
protest and like being being at these like really large protest.
There is a, a, there's a function like there's a purpose
for those protests like usually often to like raise awareness,
to bring more people in to like get media attention.
And also that like protest cannot, cannot be the only thing

(30:25):
that we are doing. Or at least like these large
protests cannot be the only thing that we're doing.
And also likely like smaller actions also like those sorts of
these sorts of tactics are it's,it's not a complete strategy.
And like folks that I work with that do strategy and like

(30:47):
operations and campaign work know that right?
That like this has to be part ofan ongoing and an ongoing
strategy that also includes likepolitical education and care
work and figuring out like the role of the role of government
in all this. Like in our the role, our role,

(31:11):
our relationship to government, I should say figuring out our
relationship to government and all of this.
So I, I want to say that becauseI think that because protests
get so much media attention, especially these like really
large protests like in downtown Chicago, which are usually like,

(31:33):
definitely raising issues, but like often far away from like
the, the setting of where a harmis happening.
I, I, I want folks to know that like being present there is
important and also to like, think about like the everyday

(31:53):
ways that you can be continuing to like both build community and
like and like keep community safe.
That's like outside of these protests.
So I just wanted to say that in terms of like when in terms of

(32:14):
when people are getting ready toprotest or if someone has not
been to a protest before. The first thing that I would
usually like advise folks to do in terms of safety planning is
really to assess their own capacity and their own risk
related to like whatever the activities and the tactics of a

(32:35):
specific action are going to be.So this could be related to
somebody's like disability needs, could be related to their
their, their energy needs, theirrisk of injury, their risk of
surveillance or their risk of arrest.
And of course, like those sorts of things are going to differ
for each person and each action,even within actions, right?

(33:00):
So in the same way, because I used to be a sex educator, in
the same way that like we think about consent as being something
that you are regularly negotiating throughout an
encounter that we're regularly negotiating in our relationships
that are both sexual and non sexual.

(33:21):
We're regularly thinking about and navigating and assessing our
own consent and risk capacity and risk assessment to regular
negotiation that you're going tohave with yourself about whether
you want to like continue participating.
And I'd like to think about it that way because then if you

(33:42):
want to keep participating, you have an opportunity to like re
engage and to like redecide and to re choose.
And like that is that's really powerful.
Because then you're consistentlysaying, like, I choose to be
here and I choose to be here because it aligns with my
values. I choose to be here because I
cannot be silent. I choose to be here because like

(34:04):
I can take this risk. Or you're saying like I choose
to be here up until this time, or I choose to be here until I
start to see these things happen, or I choose to be here
until it looks like people are getting arrested, like those
sorts of things. So I always, I always advise
people to assess their own capacity and risk 1st.

(34:26):
And then if you decide you're going to go, I would say like do
whatever you need to, to like get grounded and regulated
before you go to an action to really take care of yourself and
take care of your body. So whether that means doing some
deep breathing, some some stretching, some resting,
meditating, praying, if that's something that you do, and then

(34:51):
to like to eat well and to hydrate.
People are usually like they don't want to drink water before
they go to protests. They're like, I don't know where
the bathroom is going to be, butit's really important to hydrate
and actually like water will move through you more quickly if
you are not hydrating and then like drinking a lot of water at

(35:13):
once. So one of the best ways to
hydrate is to actually like take, take small sips like
throughout your time. And then the you won't have like
an excessive water. It'll just like move through
your like a regular pace and youwon't necessarily have, you may
not have to like stop and find abathroom like every hour or so,
but definitely stay hydrated. I usually will, especially if

(35:39):
you know there's going to be chemical injury exposure risk to
like dress for that. But I also always advise people
to dress in dress dress to blendin to a certain extent.
So whether that means like you're part of a group that's
going to use what's called blackblock, which means you're
wearing all black. So that like it's really hard to

(36:00):
tell you apart. That means like black pants,
black long sleeve shirts, black boots, black hats or hoodies
like black face coverings or what's called grey block, which
is like what is would be more common and is what I think of is
just like kind of it's quote UN quote like anonymous or generic

(36:20):
or unlabeled clothing. So you're wearing you're wearing
pants that are like a dark colorthat don't really stand out.
You're wearing like a long sleeve shirt or a rain jacket.
That doesn't necessarily it likeyou, you wouldn't be able to
necessarily like tell it apart from a lot of people in that
crowd. You might be wearing like a

(36:41):
baseball cap. That's not like a super rare
baseball cap and you're wearing comfortable shoes.
I always advise people to wear long sleeves and long pants and
closed toed shoes. I am often not someone who is
thinking about thinking, who's thinking about getting sweaty

(37:03):
protest like I know that that's probably going to happen.
And so I am always just like, well, I'm going to have to
shower whenever if it's a type of protest that is, or the type
of action that is like so low key that like, like it's, it's,
you know, you have lots of permits.
It's been like fully sanctioned by the police, like your, the

(37:25):
organizers like talk to the police.
And it's more of a parade atmosphere.
And so therefore, like people might be wearing costumes or
like dressing in certain ways orwhatever, then like that would
be OK. But I usually will advise people
to like wear Gray black or if their group has decided to wear
black, black if you're going into like a higher, a higher

(37:46):
risk situation such as like whatthings have looked like outside
of Broadview. I also advise people to refrain
from wearing things that will increase their injury from
chemical weapons exposure. So not wearing contacts, but
also like not wearing lotion or makeup or face paint or

(38:08):
sunscreen, things like tear gas and pepper spray especially like
they really like to stick to things and they stick to oil.
And so if you, if you're wearingcontacts, they're going to get
like between your contact and your eyeball, which is really
incredibly painful and will makeit impossible for you to see.

(38:29):
So if you are a person that wears contacts, I would say like
wear your glasses that day. But also like if you're wearing
like a ton of skin care, if you're wearing a ton of makeup,
if you're wearing a ton of lotion, like that can also
increase the likelihood that's going to stick to your skin,
especially if you have exposed limbs instead of like long
sleeves, long pants. And then something, yeah,

(38:54):
something that that I will advise folks to do as well as to
like write the numbers for your local like National Lawyers
Guild hotline or like public defenders hotline as well as an
emergency contact on your body and permanent marker in case
like your phone dies, you get separated from your phone or

(39:15):
from it's taken. Because if you are, if you are
kidnapped or arrested by agents or police, then that way you
will have those numbers on you if folks are.
So those are the things to like prep before you go.
If folks are like when you're going, I always advise people to

(39:40):
go with other people and then assoon as you get there to like
make your exit plan. So like know how you are going
to leave both the pathway that you're going to use to leave.
So like what are the streets or the sidewalks?
What's the alley I'm going to take?
And you know, here in Chicago, we have lots of alleys.
That's not the case everywhere. But like know how you're going

(40:04):
to get out of there and what like what a rendezvous point
might be. That's like a little bit off
site. That's like a little bit far
away that you're like, this is where we're going to meet up.
That's and maybe that's your car, right?
Maybe that's where the where youmight have parked.
If you drove, but make sure you're like making those plans
in case you get separated from folks.

(40:27):
And then also to like pack of, Iwould say pack efficiently, but
like still pack lightly so that if you had to, if you like had
to move quickly, you could. So yeah, that could mean like
bringing a few snacks, whether that's like granola bars or like

(40:48):
meat sticks like Slim Jims or whatever I call it durable
fruit. It's like fruit that could take
a little bit of a beating. Like you don't want to bring
like your most, you don't want to bring like ripe Peaches,
right? Like they can't really they're
gonna like take a beating on theway home.
They might not make it home. They might not even make it

(41:10):
right be. Honest.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
So like they're not like ripe Peaches are like not good
protest snacks, but something like like the, you know,
Clementine oranges, like you could drop that on the ground.
It could get smushed in a bag. You could still peel it and eat
it. And it's actually it's like
really hydrating and can be cooling as.

(41:31):
Well. Yeah, dry fruit, dry fruit as
well. Yeah, that is dry fruit is
obviously like a very durable fruit as well, especially if
it's in a bag. And then I would say at least 2
bottles of water. And I advise folks to buy the
sport top bottles because then you'll have one for drinking and

(41:53):
then one for treating if you're exposed to chemical weapons.
In addition to that, like if folks have a good mask, whether
that's disposable, a mask like aCam 95 or like an M100 or a
reusable mask, like the type of mask you can get at like a
hardware store that you would use for like construction or

(42:16):
like paint stripping or whatever.
Plus taking a few extras and Ziploc Baggies.
So that if you are say you have like a disposable mask on, but
it's exposed to pepper spray. That way you can take it off and
put a clean one on if you have room for like an extra set of
clothes to take those. But regardless, like taking some

(42:39):
grocery bags for like sealing upyour exposed clothes or like
helping other people seal up their exposed clothes.
That might not be a thing that people would like readily think
of, but it's it's something I think of.
And then if you're driving thereor even like if you're in
someone else's car to take, havesome blankets or towels for the
car for when you're driving home.

(43:00):
And then that way that'll cover the seats.
You won't get residue from pepper spray or tear gas on the
seats. Yeah.
And if you have them taking likegoggles, taking a basic first
aid kit, those sorts of things. And then when people arrive on
site, I always, I think it's a good idea to practice

(43:24):
situational awareness, so to know exactly where police or
agents or soldiers are. And then to know like to be able
to see like when they're moving,where they're moving to, what
they might be holding in their hands.
So whether it is batons, whetherit is airsoft guns, which look

(43:44):
like paintball guns, but those are the sorts of things that
shoot pepper balls, whether it'sassault rifles like like the CBP
officers were carrying down downtown Chicago this past
weekend. They were all like can't
carrying assault rifles, which is terrifying.
It was like terrifying for a lotof people to see.

(44:07):
And then like what other gear they have on.
So if, if you, if you are watching like if you are
watching police or federal agents in the protest and you
start seeing them putting on gasmasks and things like that.
Like that's when, you know, likethey're going to start throwing
tear gas or pepper spray or pepper bowls is if like they're

(44:30):
ready, they're ready to prevent exposure, then that's when, you
know, like, OK, I'm going to getready to prevent exposure.
And then, yeah, after, I would say like after a protest.
It's also really important to engage in a lot of aftercare for
yourself to, to, you know, like get some rest, eat some

(45:00):
nourishing food, rehydrate to ground and to process so that
you can release all the, any emotions that came up, like
whether it is grief or fear or shock or anything else that like
every, all the emotions that you're feeling are like

(45:21):
important to release. And I think even if you have
been to a lot of protests, even if you have seen a lot of things
happen that like it is actually still OK.
It's like having released those emotions like it is, it is still
okay to like see something and feel fear.

(45:42):
It is still okay. It's like experience something
and feel shock. It doesn't necessarily mean that
like you weren't ready or that like you could have done better
or that you like could have prevented something like our
minds. I, when we experience a trauma,
like we want to immediately moveto control because our our minds

(46:04):
then think like, oh, if I can control all of this the entire
situation next time, then maybe the trauma won't happen.
But it's actually, it's actuallyOK to to be like, I don't, my
mind doesn't need to be in control.
My mind can like feel what it's feeling and to be able to
release that afterwards, which is is is useful and helpful for

(46:29):
like our physical and our mental, our emotional and our
spiritual support needs. So I'll pause there.
I didn't necessarily go into like the exact procedures for
treating pepper spray and tear gas, which I can get into, but
wanted to. I know that was like a long
overview of like how to prepare and be a protest, but I think

(46:51):
that as as especially like the federal government is continuing
to to repress protest and as local governments and
institutions continue to repressprotest, right?
Like we saw that they they have been repressing protests like

(47:14):
since summer 2020 when folks were protesting the murder of
George Floyd. They were they were repressing
protests when folks started speaking out against the
genocide in Palestine, specifically in Gaza.
And they're repressing protests now against all manner of like
rising authoritarianism. Like it's just, it's just going

(47:37):
to to keep escalating. And the more knowledge we have,
the more that we can care for each other, and the more that we
can be brave and to like, take risks, even when we might be
uncertain or afraid. I also want to add something
here and to get your thoughts are in terms of like taking

(48:01):
photos during protests and social media.
I think this is something that Ithink we need to have more of a
discussion on, of what is appropriate, what effects
people's safety, because doxing is a real thing, you know, and
it carries a lot of consequences.
So I think how do we as civilians document what is going

(48:22):
on without putting people unintentionally in harm's way?
Yeah. So the first thing that I think
of is to not be live on a socialmedia platform like while you're
at an action. And for me like in terms of
safety and security, I, I adviseagainst it for a number of

(48:46):
reasons. 1 is that then you might not have as much
situational awareness of like what is happening around you.
So you might not see like when agents are starting to like
close people in, you might not see when they're like pulling
down the gas mask. You might not see when they are
like starting to like block off a street and kettle people,

(49:06):
right? And those are important things
to be aware of #2 if you're live, especially on like a
social media platform, rather than just taking a video, which
I also advise against for a number of reasons.
Then like you are, you are giving real time information
like to that platform about where you are and what you're

(49:28):
doing in a way that like everybody can see that you can't
edit or you can't edit for later.
And so because like you, you know, like you're not the one
who owns that data or owns that video.
It's like that's increasing riskand harm could be exposing lots

(49:50):
of people in general. It's for like taking photos or
taking video, which I, I urge people to do with a lot of
caution. I would say like don't get
people's faces. Try not to get people at all.
Like if you can like taking pictures of signs, taking

(50:13):
pictures of banners, taking pictures of.
Feet, I guess, like not mean, yeah.
Not not like taking pictures of feet in like a wiki feet way,
but like taking pictures of likepeople walking like shoes,
right? Yes, abstract.
Photos. You know, yes, I know this
isn't. I'm not trying to, I'm not

(50:33):
trying to encourage people with those photos.
We're not going to Shane Kink anyone here.
But I just want to clarify that part, yeah.
Well, also, I mean, if you were going to be taking, if you're
going to be taking pictures for a place like footfinder.com, you
obviously like, so consent stillapplies.
So you don't want to take pictures of like, other people's
feet at a protest where they can't consent.

(50:54):
Come on. But also, you know, I think that
right now there is a there's a big emphasis on like if the
police are doing something or iflike federal agents are doing
something, we have to film it sothat we have that we have video,
we have proof of what happened. And I think a lot of people have

(51:18):
really good intentions when they're doing this, right?
Like they want to capture what they want to capture the truth
of what's happening because theyknow that most likely whatever
that like policing institution is going to say is like going to
be wrong, right? So like that intention, I think
is is in the right place. And also, if somebody is, is not

(51:49):
as skilled or not as experiencedin like doing things like
Copwatch, then they might be capturing information that can
also harm or incriminate or expose people to risk that
they're not intending to. And, you know, I, I think that
it is like, it's not a surprise to me that like the only person

(52:13):
who was ever indicted and incarcerated related to the
murder of Eric Gardner was the person who was filming it,
right. And when we think about the
murder of George Floyd, like thethe people who filmed it, like
people watch that video and still like, there was like,

(52:37):
right. There was like a lot of things
that like didn't happen as the result of that video.
And and like the young woman whofilmed it was experienced a lot
of harm and a lot of pushback and a lot of violence.
So I think that if people are going to be doing those things
to to do it with a lot of care and then tension to not

(53:00):
necessarily use it as like an influencer moment.
Like there are so many, there are so many ways that people can
use their platforms and their voices that aren't necessarily
like taking live footage or evennot fully not live footage of an
action or a protest that that can still like bring people in

(53:23):
to an action or mobilize people or catalyze people.
So yeah, I would just really advise people to like think
carefully and intentionally about about the intention of why
they're taking taking video and to think about consent when it

(53:43):
comes to like specifically to photographing other people.
And also like not everything that we do needs to be captured.
And actually if we are like capturing, we might not know
that we're like capturing something that could then be
used against somebody later. So it's actually better if we

(54:03):
just like don't capture it. I think that one of the, you
know, one of the things that is really challenging in the type
of world that we live in, both in the nonprofit landscape that
we live in, because folks are like writing about these
protests is like part of a request for say, like donor

(54:24):
funds or grant funds. If they want lots of pictures of
them, they want to say like, we can get this.
We can get a lot of people out on the streets.
And like, funders are actually, like demanding those things of
people, like they're asking for numbers that they want photos to
show. Like this is what our funding
can do. And.
My development brain and heart is like.

(54:46):
Really. I mean I my blood.
Pressure is going up here. It's like a former grant maker.
Like I have many thoughts about that as well.
But I think that we that those sorts of that sort of
environment like ask people to then like, yeah, to like prove
the the protest or to prove the action and to like then be able

(55:11):
to say like we, we have the biggest one or we like, yeah, we
got the most people there. And, and sometimes like having,
yeah, are we, are we doing this for the photo?
Are we doing it to be effective?Is having a photo part of being
effective? Like there are just lots of

(55:32):
questions to ask. So, yeah, I, I think that again,
I'll return to like encouraging people to do that with a lot of
care, with a lot of intention, with a lot of humility.
And the if, like if the reason that you're taking a photo is to
like prove to other people that you were there and with the

(55:57):
purpose of like being seen thereand like being.
Validated and. Yeah, being, yeah, being seen
there and like, being, like, having a platform there, then it
might be different than like, I'm a journalist who like, wants
to, wants to like, use my cameraas a way to bear radical witness

(56:20):
to what is happening in the world.
I really appreciate you really taking us through this, this
very insightful conversation, especially on protesters,
civilian safety, and also how wedocument and share what is
happening and at whose expense, what does it require, what

(56:42):
should we really consider? So thank you for naming all of
that getting back into the tear gas and you know, like I've
never had gone through it before, but like I know you had,
you know, touched up upon like like how you take care of your
or how you discard your clothingand also what you have to
consider, but also what else should you also consider too?

(57:06):
And also when to seek for medical attention.
I know that sounds very simple, but also at the same time I feel
like there's certain levels thatwe should be cognizant about.
Yeah. So one of the things that police
and the police and federal agents will will use as crowd

(57:29):
control measures are chemical weapons.
Like they are becoming a lot more frequently used both
because they can cover a wide area and they don't require,
they don't require police and soldiers to like be super close
to people. And, you know, one of the things

(57:50):
I wanted to mention just in in general related to the
militarization, the rise of militarization of like police
and federal agent forces is, is the connections that like are
important to some connections. They're important to remember.

(58:11):
So like, one of the reasons, oneof the things that has been part
of this, like hyper militarization of local police
forces as well as federal policeforces is like, it is
partnerships with what some folks will call the IDF, the
Israeli Defense Forces, and whatmany people like since 2023 have

(58:33):
started calling the IOF, the Israeli offensive, the Israeli
offensive forces. But it's, you know, the Israeli
military and they partner with police at the local level, the
state level and the federal level in the US through a
reciprocal partnership program program where they're exchanging

(58:55):
training with each other, unlike, quote UN quote, what's
been called worst practices. And so the policing and violence
that the Israeli military and police forces are using on
Palestinians as well as, yeah, Palestinians, as well as a lot

(59:17):
of other immigrant communities in, in occupied Palestine, like
are things there then sharing with local, state and federal
police in the US is like crowd control measures and
surveillance measures and like detention and incarceration

(59:38):
measures, especially when it comes to suppressing protest.
Like that's something that like the Israeli military has done
for a really long time and like shared that intelligence and
that information like with with like policing forces in the US.
So I I wanted to mention that aslike as.

(01:00:00):
Context for the increase in likethe use of chemical weapons.
It's like this is it's like an ongoing loop of like where this
information comes from and like why it's being used here is that
like like Israeli military have used it on Palestinian people.
They're sharing that informationwith police in the US and then

(01:00:21):
like police in the US are using it here against people in the
US. So like we can unpack all of
that. It would take like like a whole
other episode that I did want tomention it here.
It's like something that is likedocumented and facilitated by a
range of organizations, right? Including like the Anti
Defamation League, the ADL, likelocal Jewish Federation

(01:00:44):
organizations, and then the groups like Birthright.
And I included it. I didn't want it to just be a
footnote, but I like did includeinformation about what's called
the deadly exchange program or deadly exchange campaign that is
like spearheaded by Jewish Voicefor Peace.

(01:01:04):
But so when we think about our Iincluded that in the episode
notes. But so when we think about
chemical weapons, like they are starting to, they are being used
more and more here in Chicago atprotests, particularly by
federal agents. And like I said, they're using
them because they can cover a wide area.
They're like really noxious and like immediately destabilizing

(01:01:27):
to people And you don't have to be like super close to somebody.
So like if you're going to use ahave a ton on somebody, like you
have to be pretty close physicalproximity to them with like tear
gas, you don't necessarily. And so it is both a way that,
like ICE agents can like insulate themselves from like

(01:01:48):
being in close physical proximity to a protester, but
also like cover a wide area withwhat they're doing.
And in general, like tear gas and pepper spray, Like they are
things that they stick to things, right?
And they settle to the ground. So it's good to like stay upwind

(01:02:09):
of where tear gas and pepper sprayer so that they're not like
blowing right in your face. If possible.
I also will generally advise people to like not lay on the
ground like for safety. Like obviously if you are
incapacitated and need to be on the ground, that's different
than like, oh, I'm going to likelay on this grass that like
might have pepper spray residue all over it or would like advise

(01:02:33):
people to to like not lean against fencing or barriers.
So in particular, like in a in aprotest site, like outside this
Bridgeview ice facility, there'sa ton of fencing there, there's
a ton of barriers there. There's also like a lot of wide
open asphalt that people have been like sitting on, laying on
like chalking. But it also because the like the

(01:02:55):
tear grass and the pepper spray settles.
They're like they're they're just getting more of it on their
body. But if you so this is another
reason why you're going to want to go like no contacts.
You're going to want to like have a really good mask on,
whether that is like one of these like reusable masks that
you'd get like at the hardware store or like a disposable like

(01:03:18):
can 95. Like the type of mask that you
might have used that that hopefully you are still using
because the pandemic is still going, but that you might have
been, if you're not currently masking that you probably would
have used in like 2021. But the first thing, like I

(01:03:38):
said, the first thing that a chemical weapon is likely going
to do is it's going to destabilize you.
Like it's going to be really, really painful and you're not
going to be sure what's going on.
And so if I saw somebody who wasexperiencing chemical weapons
exposure, I would probably like go up to them.
I would like say, I would say close to them, like, hey, I am

(01:04:03):
like I'd share my name and like say I am, I am here to help you
because if you can't see anything someone grabs you like
that can be really shocking. That can be really disorienting.
But I would say like, hey, like my name is John.
I'd like to help you. And then the best way to, to

(01:04:24):
treat a tear gas or pepper sprayexposure is to flush people's
eyes. So you're going to want to like
flush people's eyes and skin with a direct and steady stream
of water. And I say water because I mean
water. There's so much information on
the Internet where people are like, no, do this mix or this

(01:04:46):
mix or this thing. Water is really effective
because it is, it's about havinglike the right kind of pH to
counteract it, but also just like having a liquid that's
going to like literally move something out of your eyes with
like the force of its spray. So, you know, things that are on

(01:05:10):
the Internet like mixes with Maalox, mixes with baby shampoo,
they're not necessarily any moreeffective than water on its own.
And then something like milk, which I think because of a, you
know, a show like Hot ones, everyone is like milk and ice
cream, like counteract the the impacts of like really high
capsaicin content. But if you're, you know, think

(01:05:36):
about what happens if you have milk out in the sun and not
refrigeration for a really long time, right?
Like what happens to it? It's spoiled.
Right. And so you don't like, you don't
want to put spoiled milk like inyour eye.
So that's why water or saline, but you're, it's, it's a lot

(01:05:56):
cheaper and easier to like buy water and have water on hand is
the best. And I, that's why I advise folks
to take a, to take sport top bottled water or sport top water
bottles, one that you'll have for drinking and one that you'll
have for treating so that they're always on you in case
this sort of exposure happens. So the best way that you would

(01:06:18):
do it would be like to tip your someone's face back and then
like starting from like the inner corner you would spray
like spray moving to the out corner.
I can't tell if you can see. This video.
But you want to, you want to like help gravity do its work.

(01:06:38):
So that's why you're starting from the inner corner and then
going out with like a water bottle and like a really direct
spray on to the eye outwards on to the eye outwards.
And if you're like this, then that means it's going to run off
in these two directions. And, and that that can be like
the best way to like help someone at least just like get

(01:07:01):
it out of their eyes enough so that you can then like move them
to a different location so that you can like do a lot more kind
of triage. Asking triage to see if they
have any other injuries. Asking people what kinds of
other support they need. Connecting them to like their
own protest buddy, helping them like get some water, get a

(01:07:24):
snack, get off site. What about Oh, sorry, what about
rubber bullets especially? I'm curious to know.
Obviously it's supposed to hurt,but I'm Yeah, yeah, they're
really. Painful.
Yeah, I'm curious about what that treatment looks like
immediately, especially. I mean, everybody, every

(01:07:45):
person's body is very different in how they react to pain.
That's also something I want to bring up for contacts, but I'm
curious to know what does that look like when you get hit by
rubber pellets and rubber bullets?
Yeah. So depending on how far you are
from someone and what kind of projectile it is.

(01:08:10):
So these are, they're often referred to, and I hate this
term, they're often referred to as less lethals, which I think
is, is kind of a judgement that like can't be made Like you
don't know actually based on that anybody's body if something
is going to be less lethal or not.
But I really generally think of them as like rubber projectiles

(01:08:34):
or rubber bullets because that'swhat they are like calling them
less lethals does not mean that they are not still bullets that
come from a gun. And I think that that's really
important to remember and to always reiterate, right?
Like we just because we don't, Idon't think it serves us to like
not call it a bullet, but it does serve the police to like

(01:08:59):
let them not call it a bullet. So anyways, if you are hit with
a rubber bullet or a similar type of projectile, it is going
to hurt. It is likely going to hurt a
lot. And so I think assessing, being
able to assess whether it hit up, it hit muscle or it hit bone

(01:09:21):
is really important. Like if you are somebody who you
know has experienced fractures in the past easily, you want to
make sure that it's like not broken a bone.
If it's below the waist, you want to see like where it hit.
So obviously like there are parts of the bodies that can
take impact in different ways than others.

(01:09:42):
So like if you're hit in a spot that is really sensitive for
kidneys, that's obviously going to be really different than like
if you are hit in the middle of your thigh, not to say that it's
going to hurt any less, but likeit, there's different risk for
like the types of internal injuries you might experience as

(01:10:03):
well as like if you take it to the middle of the chest, because
that's where like heart and lungs are depending on like
where it hits you in the chest could potentially like even if
it's just a small fracture couldlike hurt, could like get one of
your ribs. So those are always things that
like I am thinking about in terms of the like the place that

(01:10:25):
somebody is getting, getting hitby a rubber bullet or other type
of projectile. And then if it's above, if it's
above the knock, then you're going to want to you're going to
want to make sure that someone doesn't have a concussion.
And so that's these are types ofsituations where if there is a
street medic on site, you're going to want to connect with

(01:10:48):
that street medic. They're going to probably do a
couple like quick neurological things to see like if you can
move your eyes, like if you can like hear things on both side of
your head, if you can feel things on both sides of your
face. And they're also probably gonna
gonna like go through and test for concussion or like some sort

(01:11:10):
of traumatic brain injury. But it's also going to be
important like in in those typesof situations that you are going
that you're then going to like go off site to some sort of
urgent care or if you need it toan emergency room.
It's it's more likely that you would like have to go to urgent
care hopefully rather than an emergency room.

(01:11:33):
But those are situations where also like you, you're going to
want to look like get those sorts of things documented as
quickly as possible as well. Like that will be useful in
terms of any sort of like legal case or like journalistic case
or just like other NGO documentation, you know, like I

(01:11:53):
know groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International
will will frequently like document patterns of injuries
to, to like document like kind of community wide abuse and
community wide violence. And so like getting getting
pictures, clear pictures with like enough good light of your

(01:12:17):
injuries as soon as possible. As well as like getting getting
any X-rays you might need, getting concussion protocol and
then getting understanding like a clear treatment plan for what
you might need. So whether that is to like
immediately get some ice packs like on your bruises, whether it

(01:12:39):
is to to like not have a ton of light or like cell phone use or
computer use for a little bit, whether it's to rest, whether
it's to hydrate, Like those things are going to be really
important both for a chemical weapon like pepper spray or
tears or tear gas, but also for these, yes, also for something

(01:13:04):
like a rubber bullet or a similar type of projectile.
And for those who can't join theresistance against the ICE and
federal rogue interventions, what can people do to support
this movement and to support thesafety of protesters and
civilians alike? Yeah.

(01:13:25):
So there's a a few things that are kind of like related to how
we care for each other. And then there's a couple of
things that are related to like culturally, how we talk to each
other and like think about thesethings in particular context,
right? So the first ones that I wanted
to mention are like the ways that we help and care for each
other, like the ways that we canlike be doing action even if we

(01:13:52):
can't be on the streets. So this could include like
joining a rapid response ice watch network in your
neighborhood or or in your in your particular community.
So here in Chicago, there's a lot of rapid response networks
on the, on the northwest sides and the southwest sides of the

(01:14:13):
cities. And there's a ton of
neighborhood based ones as well,especially we there they are
present in neighborhoods with a large Latino, Latina, Latina
population. But we also because of the raid
that happened at at the, the housing, the housing facility in

(01:14:40):
South Shore see that we just like we need these, these rapid
response networks everywhere, right?
And these are these types of networks, they track the
presence of ICE and the Customs and Border Patrol police and
they put out calls for people toshow up as and either like act
as a deterrent or act as a documenter.

(01:15:01):
I know that some of these rapid response networks have also been
been having people like go standoutside schools or we'll go be
like at a community event to just like watch and be be able
to be a deterrent or be able to,to make sure that like ice is

(01:15:22):
not entering a school or a building or to make sure that
like people's kids get home. OK.
Because that's something that a lot of parents have experienced.
It's like fear of sending their kids to school or going to pick
up their kids from school because ICE have been like
picking up parents and, and likea school pick up line, which is
like so terrible and so violent.Another way that people can get

(01:15:44):
involved is to join like community or mutual aid efforts
to support families who are directly impacted by by either
having someone from their familylike incarcerated or at risk for
deportation, or those who are atfear.
So whether it is like going to the store to get groceries or

(01:16:08):
cleaning supplies or mutual careitems for people who are afraid
to leave their house, or like providing circles of financial
support for people who, like have stopped working or not able
to work right now. I've already shared a ton about
showing up at places like the Broadview ICE facility, so I
won't go into all of that. But the other thing I wanted to

(01:16:30):
mention, the other yeah, the other thing I wanted to mention
is like direct resistance is to support campaigns that are
reducing local Police Departmentfunding.
So in Chicago, there's an ongoing campaign called the
Public Health and Safety Campaign, which I've included a
link to in the episode notes, that is looking to like, reroute

(01:16:57):
money that has been given to thePolice Department and put it
into things that will support communities.
And so it is because we know that like the money that is
given to police and just the systems of policing in general
make our communities less safe. And especially in Chicago, even

(01:17:17):
though it is not a place, even though it is on paper
legislatively labeled is a quoteUN quote sanctuary city.
We have still seen that the police are either not
intervening to interrupt ICE activity in support of in
support of like residents of Chicago and the people that live

(01:17:37):
here or are like actively supporting the operations of
ICE, even if they are not like sharing information through
their like their infrastructure,right.
And so any money, any campaign that is to reduce local police
funding ultimately gets at the policing that is going to reduce

(01:18:01):
things like ICE and Customs and Border Patrol as well.
So those are those are really important things that people can
get involved in. And then the other two things I
wanted to mention are more related to information and
culture. So one thing that I am really, I
am really careful about and havebeen as somebody that has

(01:18:23):
followed right wing movements for a long time and like right
wing opposition to, to social justice movements is to make
sure that I'm getting my news from trusted outlets.
So I make sure to get my news from places that aren't just
going to reprint a police statement or a police press
release. That's what a lot of like

(01:18:44):
mainstream news sources do. A lot of legacy media will do
that. They'll say, well, according to
statement by police, XYZ happened.
Which number one, like perpetuates what's called
copaganda, perpetuates the idea that like the police are
frequently right and that like the police have the most up to
date information, which like both of those things are not

(01:19:07):
necessarily true and also can spread misinformation, right?
So misinformation information iswhen information is shared and
it's wrong, but it's not necessarily shared on purpose.
Whereas disinformation is information that is wrong and
it's shared on purpose, like it's shared with like

(01:19:27):
intentionally knowing that it's wrong.
So, you know, locally the, the outlets that I have that I trust
for a lot of my news in general are places like Unravelled
Press, the Tribe, which that's, that's an outlet, TRIIBE and

(01:19:48):
Borderless magazine. Those, those three have been
particularly good in documentinglike immigration, immigration
justice issues, but they also like do a lot of work around
police and policing and their journalistic work.
And then the last thing I wantedto mention related to culture

(01:20:09):
and what people can do even if they're not on the streets.
Has to do in like the ways that we talk about what's happening
in the US right now, which I think could be, I don't know,
this may resonate with your particular audience because of
who we are like we're we're diasporic Asian people.

(01:20:31):
But one thing I've seen on on a lot of social media places like
Facebook or Instagram or Blue Sky, I'm not an X, but I also
know it's there because it's been reposted from there.
It's just this constant need to compare the rising
authoritarianism that's happening in the US to like

(01:20:52):
places in parts of Asia, right? So it's like, this isn't
supposed to happen here. What are we, North Korea?
And I don't think that it servesus to like constantly be
defining what's happening in this country is like a
devolution into Asianness, right?

(01:21:12):
It's like we are like falling off the the pedestal of Western,
Western exceptionalism into being Asian or into like
reflecting Asianness. Like I don't think that's
helpful even if it's like liberals or leftists who are
saying it, right, Like it normalizes authoritarianism is

(01:21:35):
something that is like associated Asian, right?
It's associated with Asia and therefore it's foreign that like
it's it it would never be like authoritarianism would never be
Western, right? Like it's Asian.
And so when we do it, we are being like places in Asia like
China or North Korea or Russia and also like ignores the fact

(01:21:57):
that like. Or South America.
Yeah, forget about that one. Yeah, but that also ignores the
fact that like actually throughout history, like most of
the colonialism and like white supremacy has like come from
Europe and like as an extension like from the US, right.
So, so I think it's, it's reallyimportant for us to like, even

(01:22:23):
if it means being like the wet blink in a conversation to like
push back against that, that actually like it what we're
seeing. It is like, it is so rooted in
the history of like, the United States and the US colonial
project in the way that like, there have been so many thefts
of land and labor and like a foreign policy that's like

(01:22:47):
completely rooted in occupation and imperialism, like the
expansion of the military industrial complex.
That like, we don't need to compare it to a place like
Russia or China or North Korea is like the worst thing we could
become. Like maybe we already are the
worst thing we could become simply by being the US.

(01:23:07):
Thank you so much for really spending so much of your time,
you know, talking to me or talking to my listeners and also
like really giving us like a lotof the heavy nuances.
I also want to say to the audience, I do hope after
listening to this, I hope that you're being very gentle to

(01:23:29):
yourself. Take a deep breath, hydrate
because it has a lot to take in.I mean, it's also jarring to
hear how much really needs to happen.
This is where we're at. And I think that to get past the
shock, we also have to be grounded in ourselves and to the
people that we care about. And, and I really appreciate you

(01:23:51):
really also reminding us of how we care for our communities, our
loved ones, and protecting ourselves as a reminder that,
you know, this is a long game. You know, this is not just a
Tran one time transaction. This is very much like how do we
become more knowledgeable? How do we become more self
aware? How do we deepen our ways of

(01:24:14):
compassion and, and what we provide to our communities, you
know, to help our communities thriving, to survive first, but
hopefully to thrive. And I also hope that you get to,
you know, read the episode notesfor any resources, the links

(01:24:37):
that are going that are going tobe there.
And I hope that with all of a sudden, I hope that this will
give you starting point and thatit'll spark a curiosity and help
you engage in more conversationsabout this.
I think there's a lot of wonderful grassroots groups,

(01:24:58):
collective groups that are doinga lot of work that we're not
really always seeing. So I think it's very important
to name that and and know that there are people putting their
bodies, their minds, the resources on the line.
And I think there's so many different ways to contribute
that does not have to involve putting your bodies like there's

(01:25:19):
other methods. So I hope that this is an
opportunity for listeners to, you know, take a moment to
reflect. And I also want to say, you
know, thank you, Jung. I wonder if you have any lasting
remarks to. Yeah.
Thank you Randy, for having me on again.

(01:25:41):
I hope that one day I can come back and we could just talk
about books or like the Nbas. Yes.
And then and then and possibly the fact that instinct might do
a reunion to it, and I don't seeJustin Chamberlake's name on it.
And I'm like, interesting. Well, I know you will have many
thoughts about that. And hopefully, hopefully, like
at some point this like US, authoritarianism will end and we

(01:26:06):
can, we can just talk about our hobbies and like the things in
pop culture that we love. But the last thing I wanted to
say is that I, I am, I'm really grateful to all of your
listeners for, if you got to, tothis part in the episode, I'm so
grateful to you for listening tothis information, Hopefully

(01:26:29):
sharing some of this information, sharing the links,
sharing like the resources that I shared.
And I, I will, I said this at the beginning, but I'll share it
again that with more information, we can have a
better understanding of what's happening.

(01:26:50):
We can be more prepared. And when, when we are prepared
together, we are powerful and, and that is what it takes to be
brave together, not necessarily to move without fear, but to
move with purpose and to move with clarity and to move with
knowledge and to do it anyways, even if we are afraid.

(01:27:15):
So I hope that whatever you are doing in opposition to ICE, in
opposition to anything that is happening, as as we are
experiencing rising authoritarianism and like in the
sense towards fascism in the US,that you remember that like you

(01:27:41):
can be brave, you are brave, youare powerful, and we will be
brave and powerful together. Thank you, thank you.
Thank you so much for your kind words and also for, again, the
level of wisdom, experience and labor that you put into this
conversation. And I hope that this will spark

(01:28:03):
something greater for all of ourlisteners and what action they
decide to take and how they remain informed.
So thank you so much, John. Yeah.
Thanks, Randy.