October 8, 2025 • 53 mins
In this emergency episode of The Banh Mi Chronicles Podcast, I’m joined by Mahdis Azimi, a Chicago-based immigration attorney working closely with clients who are facing deportation threats and uncertain legal status amid the current ICE raids in the city.
Mahdis sheds light on the rapidly changing immigration landscape, the fear and confusion facing undocumented and mixed-status families and legal status folks, and the urgent work being done by attorneys and advocates to defend their clients and communities.
We also discuss what local communities can do to support those feeling threatened and how solidarity and accurate information can be a powerful defense in times like these.
🎧 Listen to the full episode for her critical insights and practical guidance.
Please share widely — our neighbors’ safety depends on awareness and action.
Bio:
Mahdis Azimi is a proud Iranian-American based out of Chicago, Illinois. She founded her immigration law practice in 2019 and has been practicing law since 2015. She received her Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from the University of Illinois at Chicago and her Juris Doctor from Loyola University Chicago School of Law. In addition to her practice, Mahdis actively volunteers with several local organizations and is currently an Honors College instructor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
LinkedIn: Mahdis Azimi
Website: www.azimilaw.com
Email: mahdis@azimilaw.com
Relevant Links:
ICE Detainee Locator: https://locator.ice.gov/odls/#/search
Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights (“ICIRR”) Know Your Rights Cards: https://www.icirr.org/fsn
Immigrant Legal Resource Center (“ILRC”) Know Your Rights Cards: https://www.ilrc.org/community-resources/know-your-rights
Midwest Immigration Bond Fund:
https://www.mibfc.org
Executive Office for Immigration Review (“EOIR”) List of Pro Bono Legal Services Providers: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/list-pro-bono-legal-service-providers
National Lawyers Guild Chicago: https://nlgchicago.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hey everyone, welcome to the Bundy Chronicles podcast.
This is an emergency episode, sothe time stamp is Tuesday,
October 7th, 6 O 4:00 PM. And I am joined with Marisse
Azimi, who is an immigration attorney.
And I want to shout out my good friend Nebula Lee, who
(00:26):
introduced me to Marisse. Because right now I feel this is
very important to get into kind of the weeds with the legal
issues that are facing immigrants in Chicago as we
speak, both for those that are undocumented and for those that
have legal status. And Marisa, I would like for you
(00:49):
to introduce more about the workthat you do.
Sure, sure. And of course, shout out to
Nebula for connecting us. My name is Paddy Sasimi and I
have been practicing immigrationlaw for 10 years.
Next month flew by. You know, it's, it's been a
little crazy. I started working for a
nonprofit for a little while andthen I transitioned to working
(01:11):
for two different smaller private firms.
And I've actually been practicing on my own since 2019.
And I work in immigration law. Most, not most.
Well, it might be most. A good chunk of immigration
lawyers tend to work in private settings or solo practice
settings, and some also work in nonprofits.
(01:33):
And essentially we have government attorneys who also
work in immigration law, but they work on the prosecutorial
side. I personally work in private
immigration. I work on a variety of different
matters, but a lot of the work Ido involves removal defense and
deportation defense for individuals who are in
proceedings, whether they entered, you know, yesterday or
(01:55):
20 years ago, green card holder or not.
I just generally represent a lotof people in those proceedings.
And as of recently, I've been going back and forth to
immigration court a lot more than I used to, but I've always
kind of settled into that area of practice.
Thank you so much for sharing. And also I want to offer a
(02:17):
trigger warning that there's going to be conversations
dealing with deportation and ICEraids.
So for listeners, I I ask that you be gentle of yourself as
you're listening and hopefully this information will be very
useful. And I want to say, Marisse, like
(02:37):
I am very curious ever since Trump took office this year, and
I know that it has escalated with the deportation issues.
But what do you feel has changedin terms of the current laws and
the way proceedings are happening on deportations?
(02:58):
Because I think that this is this is very different than when
he first took office in 2017 versus now.
Definitely. I mean, I think for for me,
there were things that I expected and there were things
that really surprised me. I expected, based on my
experience with the first administration, an uptick in
(03:20):
detentions for sure. I didn't expect that it would be
to this scale or with, you know,ICE involvement, National Guard
involvement. I also generally expected a lot
of changes to be coming in quickly because during the first
administration, there were about800 to 900 changes to
(03:42):
immigration law and policy during the first Trump
administration. But at this point, there's been
so many changes. I heard a rumor at some point
that this is actually more changes to immigration law and
policy already, but I'm not positive about that.
I just, I think something to really like keep in mind is the
(04:02):
magnitude of everything. I for me, like what really
shocked me when I started practicing again and after the
inauguration was the sheer amount of people being detained,
the sheer amount of like ice presence.
And I, I think brutality is a strong word, but I, I mostly
(04:29):
think say that because like, I believe that the tactics that
we've seen on certain videos andphotos have been extreme and far
more violent and aggressive thanI've ever seen from ICE
officers. But I also know not everyone has
been engaging in those particular tactics.
So I do feel like there's definitely been an uptick in
(04:52):
aggression and in some cases definitely brutality in terms of
ICE detentions and how they proceed in the day-to-day
context. And something that's really
stood out for me is also I, I think there used to be
predictability in the sense of like when a client came to me
(05:14):
and said, how can I guarantee that I won't be detained in
prior administrations? I would say, you know, we live
in Chicago, we're sanctuary city.
CPD does not have the same kind of ice holes in place that would
require them to have someone detained shortly after release
from like criminal arrest or detentions.
(05:35):
But basically, I would tell clients, you know, if you have
something pending, if you don't have any arrest history, if you
have, you know your documentation on you.
In the past, I would say that isgenerally enough to keep you
secure. But now it really is like there
are no rules anymore. It's really started to feel like
the wild, Wild West in the sensethat clients maybe not
(05:59):
necessarily are just mine, but people are being detained with
active cases, no arrest history,no issues whatsoever, or at
least no issues that I would consider making them a priority
for enforcement by ICE. And so that's been very
intimidating and very scary where a lot of people are very
concerned, not because of just the fact that there's ICE
(06:23):
present, but because of the factthat there's no real like
criteria for who wouldn't be an enforcement priority.
I feel like sometimes anyone's an enforcement priority.
Even for myself walking around as a citizen, I, I feel nervous
sometimes walking into court because it just feels like we're
(06:45):
walking into a place where we don't know what's going to
happen or what it's going to look like.
I mean, ISIS gone into immigration courts and detained
people after their hearings. It's just a very different
setting, different worlds, yeah.Yeah, that is incredibly
jarring. And this is the reality that we
(07:05):
are facing. And we're seeing ICE agents go
very rogue and and going into places that they really aren't
supposed to be at. But you know, here we are.
I mean, there's also the warrantless, the warrantless
searches, searches. And I also wonder what has the
(07:26):
response been from from like theassociation, like the I can't
even think of the word right where at the moment.
But yeah, like, what has the response, the collective
responses, been with lawyers in Illinois and Chicago and also
from the state and local government?
(07:49):
Yeah, I feel like we're very lucky, at least with, you know,
some of our main state and federal and local leadership in
the sense that Illinois is a blue state and we live in
Chicago. And for the most part, people
have been in in power, people inleadership have been very upset
and very frustrated by the situations that have been taking
(08:10):
place since January. And I do feel like we are
privileged in general to live inan area like Chicago where we
are generally welcoming towards immigrants.
But unfortunately that has also led to more enforcement in
Chicago. I do feel like the lawyer
(08:31):
response has generally been veryone.
A lot of immigration lawyers that I know are definitely
feeling a lot of pressure and stress and some signs of
burnout. And I think that's pretty
common. But we're very lucky.
Like the American Immigration Lawyers Association and other
private bar associations have really taken a stand against a
(08:53):
lot of different immigration policy changes and process
changes over the past few months.
So that is a very fortunate thing for us.
But I, I do feel like in some ways my viewpoint of what other
lawyers think is skewed. And I don't know if you noticed
this yourself too. I mean, I feel like I'm very
fortunate and that I have a lot of colleagues and friends in
(09:16):
this field, whether they're immigration lawyer or not, who
are more progressive or more liberal or more anti immigration
enforcement to this extent. And so I do feel like fortunate
for that. But I also recognize that I'm
sure there are people in other parts of this country or even
the state who are less supportive.
(09:38):
I just feel very privileged to, like be able to say that.
That's my personal experience and narrative.
Have you worked with clients outside or Chicago?
And I'm also very curious about the dynamics and other cities
and nearby towns adjacent to Chicago.
Sure. I've definitely worked with the
clients outside of Chicago, but for the most part I did that
(10:01):
during the first trip administration.
So I've represented clients in Texas and I've especially worked
in detained courts in Texas. I've had some hearings in New
Mexico courts. I also have had clients in like
California, for example, the NewYork, New Jersey area and other
parts of the Midwest or the Mideast.
So a lot of cases in Michigan, as an example, in some cases
(10:24):
sporadically, like in Louisiana.I've talked to people recently,
you know, on the Pacific Northwest.
So the general theme, I think isfear and strain and concern.
Even for people who are in like safer or traditionally safer
areas, there's been a lot of concern.
(10:47):
I think that's like the one universal factor for me that
I've seen is that everyone is worried no matter where they
are. What steps have you been
advising clients right now, especially in this very
uncertain and dangerous time? What steps are you able to
(11:09):
advise on what to do, especiallyin cases where maybe there's a
final deportation or maybe that there is a hearing that they
have to go to? You know, I'm, I'm very curious
about like the pivot that you have to make and, and
adjustments that you have to make to inform clients to make
(11:31):
and protect themselves. Sure.
Some of the things that I've been advising are, you know,
keep copies of your ID or documentation on you, especially
if you're travelling that from my client's side, you know, like
as a practicing lawyer, when a client is concerned about
detention, I say, you know, if you have ice at your door, do
(11:55):
not open the door. If they have a warrant, they
will let you know. But I always tell clients, text
me, call me. I'm I'm a solo practitioner so
sometimes my phone availability is a little funky for lack of a
better word, depending on the day or if I'm in a hearing.
But I've always told clients that said, if ice comes to your
(12:18):
door, if you see them somewhere like immediately let me know.
But for the most part, keeping documentation handy, staying as
vigilant as possible when going outside, checking ice tracking
apps. To be honest, I don't have them
downloaded on my phone. I just trust communal, like
sharing in terms of seeing what my community is sending and
(12:38):
letting people know. But definitely just advising
people to lay low. Let me know if they have any
encounters with law enforcement,keep their documentation handy
and, you know, reach out if ICE comes near them or to their
homes. And then, like, a big shift I've
seen is with people being detained in immigration courts.
(13:02):
For the most part, clients in the past have never really
hesitated to go to court. But lately, I've been seeing a
lot of hesitation and fear aboutactually going to immigration
court or going to immigration appointments.
I feel that, too. I mean, when I go, I'm worried
that someone's going to be detained.
That's the last thing I want forany client.
(13:23):
I actually had a client detainedin front of me during the first
Trump administration. And even though we had some
expectation that it could happenand we had prepared, it is a
very intimidating and scary experience.
And so I understand the hesitations, But there's
definitely been a lot more pushback about, you know,
(13:44):
whether someone needs to go to court if they're going to be
detained, and a lot more fear inthat sense.
And I've noticed that a lot of judges have been really gracious
about allowing people to appear virtually, but there's still
definitely a shift in attitudes about who's allowed to appear
virtually. Wow, that is really important to
(14:05):
us though, you know, no, to be able to really share this.
And I also wonder about what goes through when a client calls
you, the ice is at their door. What are?
What steps do you take when thathappens?
(14:25):
Yeah, So it, it had happened in terms of like people being
detained and contacted me after the fact or, you know, working
with the client and thinking, OK, maybe you'll be detained and
having that experience of being prepared for that.
Typically in advance. If I think someone's far more
vulnerable based on their position, I'll request certain
(14:48):
documents to have on hand and I'll inform clients that you
know, and luckily when I'm working with someone already,
I'll have a lot of these documents handy.
But essentially making sure thatI have like in terms of my own
firm safety planning that we have what we would need to file
a bare bones bond motion, an emergency bond motion in case
(15:12):
someone is detained. And we want to make sure we can
get things going as quickly as possible.
But something that this was the first time it happened for me,
you know, I've always told clients, if ice comes to your
door, it's a true emergency and I will be there for you and we
will figure out how to handle this.
But I had never had that experience before this year
(15:34):
where actually someone came to their door.
And it's definitely a very sobering moment.
Basically, he texted me. I immediately jumped on the
phone. My client, when ICE came to his
building trying to get into his apartment and we talked about
how he should not open the door,not answer the door, that if
(15:54):
they had a warrant, we would request it.
And we were on the phone a lot throughout that day and even
since then, it's been a few months.
But another thing that we did was we contacted ICE via e-mail
and I explained to them, you know, this is my client, this is
the situation. In my opinion, he wasn't a
priority for enforcement. So I didn't understand why ICE
(16:15):
was there necessarily, but reaching out to the ICE office
in Chicago via electronic mail or physical mail to explain to
them, you know, this person is represented, he's not alone in
this. And, you know, asking them to
communicate with us if possible.And unfortunately, I didn't hear
back from ICE ever. In that certain circumstance.
(16:37):
ICE has come back and forth to this person's place of
residence. But it's definitely a moment
when you see it where you're like, oh, this is really an
emergency. Like when I saw that text
message of oh I sits at my door,it it really hit me that this is
just a completely different world from what I'm used to.
(16:59):
When you, when you have had to work with clients that are in
detention centers like I, I Broadview for example, which is
now like a, which is a battle zone at the moment, you know,
with protesters being violently attacked.
And I would like to kind of get your take on what has that
(17:19):
experience been like working with the ICE detention centers
when you have clients, I presumethat are they're being detained
there? So in general and and I try to
be like fair to people when I can.
I've generally had very kind officers at deportation centers.
(17:42):
I haven't really done a lot of engagement with Broadview unless
the client is actively being processed for deportation or
removal. But for the most part, with the
detention centers I've spoken with and worked with for various
clients throughout the years, they've generally been very kind
and helpful as much as they can be to make sure that the people
(18:04):
who are inside have access to their counsel.
It can be tough. I think more so in the past or
depending on the center because their private facilities are
like local facilities that have immigration detention as a part
of their space or agreements. It's hard because each center is
(18:24):
a very different experience and can provide very different
resources. And I hate seeing amenities
because I feel like that's not the right phrase or word for
this situation. But some of them, for example,
provide like texting options so that clients can still send
messages to us or send messages to their family and loved ones.
(18:47):
Some of them allow for like, video conferencing on iPads or
other tablets. So like for the most part, the
officers have been kind to me asan attorney trying to, you know,
represent my client, But I I also still recognize that it's
detention. And so I've had a lot of clients
(19:08):
throughout the years tell me that, especially for those who
have been in criminal detention or arrested prisons before,
sharing to me that this is a farworse circumstance to be in than
whatever criminal jail or prisonthey were in before.
I find that because a lot of these institutions are privately
(19:30):
owned or run, there aren't as many guarantees in terms of like
day-to-day access to medical care, for example.
And so that has been really challenging.
And talking to people who are detained, it's very sobering.
(19:50):
I think about lockdown a lot when I think about like my
experience inside waiting for people to be able to go active
again. And I think that isolation and
fear is really hard on a lot of clients.
And so I've definitely had some conversations with people who
are in detention that like do not leave my mind very easily.
(20:15):
Just things that make you reallyreflect on like how privileged
we are for the most part, like I.
I remember leaving a detention facility in Texas a few years
ago after seeing a client and just thinking I get to go and
sit in this room and watch TV and do whatever I need to do in
(20:36):
this hotel after before going home and seeing my family.
And like being able to be out with other people and just
thinking like from one person tothe other.
I no one really deserves to feelthis alone and dehumanized.
I really appreciate you, you know, sharing these stories and
(21:00):
also kind of giving a giving a very important glance on what is
happening to people being detained.
And there's been a lot of cases where people have been
disappeared through ICE and there's been situations where
they're getting transported to different States and different
places where lawyers scrambling,family members scrambling to
(21:22):
find out where their loved ones are being detained at.
What can you share about what's going on with that and, and
maybe shed some light maybe intoyour experience of what you've
heard from other colleagues in Illinois about situations like
that because ICE again, is goingvery rogue.
I mean, it's they're certainly turning the tables and
(21:43):
accelerating to the point where it's hard for lawyers to catch
up and the courts that is too. Yeah.
I mean, honestly, it's, I think the big thing for me that I
always think about is the lack of information that we're given
as practitioners. Like, one would think in theory
that a lawyer for someone would be informed every time their
(22:06):
clients moved or, you know, havelike, more information in
advance than we actually get. I've been really lucky.
I haven't really had clients move to places like Alligator
Alcatraz. And I know there are a lot of
people still missing and unaccounted for.
I didn't have anyone sent to El Salvador, to that prison or
detention center there. I know someone who has at least
(22:28):
one person or one colleague, andfor the most part my clients who
have been detained have been detained after or sorry before
they became my client and not necessarily detained as my
client, if that makes sense. But it's definitely very scary
(22:50):
to be left out in the dark and to not even know where your
client is. I actually was on a virtual
hearing for a different client afew months ago, and I was just
listening in the background and someone was talking about how,
you know, for detained clients, for detained cases, typically in
(23:10):
Chicago, what happens is we havepeople being video calls from
detention centers. They don't actually come up to
Chicago courts to have their hearings.
Those hearings are virtual for the people who are detained.
And for us, depending on the judge, we either go in person or
virtually. And I was sitting on a virtual
call, a court call, listening, and someone from one detention
(23:35):
center mentioned that a bunch ofpeople had just been moved to
another detention center in the Mideast.
And I had another client in thatcenter at the time.
And that's how I learned she wasmoved.
Like to me, it's just crazy thatthat's just how you learn
someone has been moved. And because it was a different
(23:57):
center, she couldn't call us. She couldn't text me like she
normally would. I had to look it up and schedule
a different call with her through a different center to
talk to her and actually get into the details.
But why she was moved And it, itmakes it very hard to do our
work. But I feel very like, again,
(24:18):
privileged and fortunate. You know, I know how to reach
these people. I know how to find these
resources. I'm on this call and I'm paying
attention and I'm aware of what's happening.
But for people whose families may not have the same like
Internet savvy skills or, you know, tech skills or time during
the work day, it's definitely very frustrating and
(24:42):
disheartening for people who arejust being moved at the whims.
And it's not even necessarily for a bad reason.
Like, for example, there they were saying it's overcrowding.
We want to move people so they have more space, which is a
safety concern. But there's no communication.
I mean, I, I know someone who had a client moved to El
Salvador. That client was supposed to have
(25:04):
a hearing coming up in a few days and he had no notice
whatsoever that his client had been moved.
He had to know because he was looking and checking online and
he couldn't find the status of his client.
And I should elaborate. There's something called the ICE
detainee locator. So there's a way to check if
someone is being detained or if they're detained in a particular
(25:26):
place. There's some information you'll
need like place of birth, date of birth, full legal name,
things like that. So there are ways to find
someone, but if someone's on route to another facility,
you're not going to see any status updates for them really.
You'll be told to call the ICE office in Chicago, and then that
office will, if you're lucky, maybe pick up a handful out of
(25:50):
100 times calling. What has, what have or what are
you seeing from Chicago in termsof their response of I know,
yeah, you had earlier talked about this, but I definitely
want to like go back to that question.
What have they been able to advise with you?
(26:11):
Like what policy, what are they trying to do to slow down the
national government's involvement?
Now I know we got the National Guard coming over to Chicago
from Texas, Illinois being activated.
I am wondering what could the state actually do, especially in
this situation, and how can it in a way, or how can they in a
(26:34):
ways try to prevent immediate deportations and detainment?
I think in terms of what the state can do, it of course is
really challenging because they're up against the federal
government. But I think that in terms of our
like governor and our mayor and our leadership, we, we do have
(26:57):
this like fortunate position of having leadership that is very
active and involved in making sure that people are informed
that Immigration Services are accessible and working to, for
example, file a lawsuit to prevent the National Guard from
from coming to Chicago or Illinois in general.
And in terms of, you know, what I think people are doing in the
(27:21):
community, I love that, you know, storefronts and
shopkeepers and people in the community are just shooting
pictures and telling the people in their communities, you know,
ICE is here at this intersectionor in this neighborhood.
Be careful. Watch out.
I just feel like as a community,not just lawyers and legal
(27:42):
organizations, because a lot of our legal organizations are
doing great things to get the word out.
I just feel like there is a lot of community support that forget
his last name, but I think it was the CBP director when he was
talking about how, like, Chicagois very prepared and that's why
it's made it so difficult for ICE to meet their targets or for
(28:04):
CBP to meet their targets in Chicago for detention.
I think that says a lot about how as a society we have decided
that this is not acceptable to us.
And I'm glad we have government officials that represent those
views, too. I think that's really important
because this is something that I'm very proud of with Chicago.
And I say this with, with clear and unapologetic bias because
(28:28):
it's, it's a city that has been a progressive bastion for so
long. Black and Latino, Asian, those
community members have really been known to activate and be
very vigilant about their communities.
And I think that's very important.
And, and I'm also like very encouraged when I start seeing
(28:53):
storefronts also telling them not to use our bathroom.
We're not going to start. And you know what?
That's, I think that is just another inconvenient way of
trying to distract and make things very difficult.
And I, and I will just say that because I know you're in the
legal backwards, I'm going to bevery careful about how I share
my own politics. But I do think that that
(29:16):
community support has to be amplified.
And I feel like the work that you're doing, but what legal
organizations, firms is like really trying to protect people
and getting proper legal representation and also trying
(29:39):
to document what is happening inthese detention centers and, and
how they're being abducted. And I think this is something
that we really have to name. Like this is the these are
abductions and forced disappearances.
And I think that has to be part of the lexicon and how we
(29:59):
describe this. This is not just a typical
routine, you know, and I also there are people that will say,
well, Biden has done it, Obama has done it.
Yes, like, let's be very honest,Like that has happened under
those administrations. But with the Republicans,
specifically with the Trump administration, that has
escalated to another level. But also going after U.S.
(30:20):
citizens. Have you had situations where
you've had clients or other other lawyers have had clients
having to represent even U.S. citizens that are being
detained? I have heard of it.
I personally haven't, and I'm soglad I haven't had clients who
are U.S. citizens who have been detained.
(30:42):
But I think it is a very sobering thing and I think it
says a lot about how brazen everything has become.
Like, for me, I, I criticize this country and politics a lot.
I try to be a little bit more diplomatic about it sometimes.
And especially when I'm working in environments where I'm not
(31:05):
the boss, essentially, you know,and especially like when working
with government officers for like, for example, when I go to
a government appointment, I try to be mindful that we all have
jobs to do and that in most circumstances, it's best for me
to be cordial and cooperative and work with an officer.
And I've had a lot of good case wins recently.
(31:28):
But I think, and I've criticizedmany a president, Democrat or
Republican. But for me, like the thing that
I've seen that's really different with this presidency
and this administration is how brazen and open people have been
about like othering people and profiling others.
(31:50):
I mean, even the Supreme Court rubber stamping racial profiling
in LA. And I feel very lucky that I
haven't had any citizen clients detained.
But I know that people are scared and very aware of their
privilege or lack of privilege in how they present in the
(32:10):
world. Not just people of color, like
working in the immigration sphere, but also like friends
who are, for example, like LGBTQIA plus, like identifying
in that sense. And I even feel nervous on the
street. I know, like I speak generally
on accented English and I'm out in the world as a citizen who
(32:31):
was born here. But I actually, and I haven't
talked about it a lot, but my parents a few months ago
actually texted me and they said, so like, if you're
detained, who helps you? I'm like, can you send us the
phone number? Because my parents are, you
know, like immigrant parents, very concerned, want to make
sure I'm OK Didn't really know alot of lawyers before I went to
(32:55):
law school. And I just think that says a lot
about like the rate at which people are being detained when
they have every right to due process and to be out in the
world moving exactly how they are.
And I think it's just very, verysad that there are not just
citizens being detained, but people who are scared about
(33:17):
detention, who have like all theprivileges that we would think
would keep them safe. What can?
You share to community allies asfar as like what do you think
would be best ways to support your clients support your work.
I'm, I think this is, I always am a believer that we all need
(33:39):
find to find ways to support people really doing the
essential work in this. And lawyers are definitely front
people on the front lines. And I would like to see how you
would like to share about your thoughts on the community's
involvement and what it means and how they can help to amplify
(34:02):
and support this important work.Yeah.
I mean, I think in terms of likewhat we are seeing in Chicago, I
think it is amazing already. And I would say for the most
part to keep doing what we're doing, keep videoing when people
are getting stopped and when yousee something is going on that's
(34:22):
not right or not sitting right with you, keep protesting and
keep advocating for equality andhumanity.
And, you know, in a private setting, it's very different
because I recognize that I'm being compensated directly for
the work I'm doing. But I would also say, you know,
to think about like the various immigration organizations in our
(34:44):
communities, if someone's tryingto like physically donate
because. And not just attorneys, but, you
know, community activists and organizing as well, because I
think there are some bigger organizations, but there are
also a lot of smaller scale organizations that do very good
(35:04):
work that's very meaningful. There are also organizations and
bar associations like the National Lawyers Guild that
provide legal observing. And I think those groups are
instrumental in helping with community support and sharing
widespread information and giving trainings about people's
rights during ICE detention or stops.
(35:27):
And I would also, honestly, I think the biggest thing I would
say to do that isn't necessarilybeing done on a widespread scale
is for people to actually observe hearings if they can, to
come to the courts, to come to these spaces where people are
(35:49):
being targeted. Whether you're incidentally, for
example, at a school where ICE is trying to enter, or if you're
going to the courthouse to observe hearings and to make
sure people's rights are being protected.
I think when we stand up for each other, we really help
(36:10):
bolster people's, I'm sorry, I'mlosing the word right now, but
I, I know what I'm trying to getat, which is that it, it is so
meaningful to people when they see others showing up for them.
And I think it just shows the strength in our humanity when we
treat people with respect for existing, not because of any
(36:31):
particular actions. Like I think when people tell
ice, no, you can't come into theschool or hospital to dating
this person. It's a very scary thing to sit
there and say like we're going to push against the government,
the force of law, but it shows other people that their lives
have value, not just the people who know them, but to their
(36:51):
communities. I really appreciate this
because. I think that this is how we
build momentum. It's how we build momentum to
recognize that, yes, ice is not welcome here.
And even though the work that I do puts me in danger, you know,
doing this and also for you and everyone else getting involved
(37:13):
with it, I also feel like this is the time I think that that
it's like speak now or forever hold your peace and that forever
hold your peace is basically a enforced 1.
And I it's. Hard for me to.
Wrestle with that conscious likethis, this, this, this really
upsetting consciousness that's been really at me for the last
(37:35):
few weeks, you know, seeing what's going on and, and how can
I help to amplify that? And I feel that bringing people
like yourself on is vital because I think bringing this
information to communities that do not know the full narratives
of what's going on, because mainstream legacy media are not
(37:55):
really covering it. And if they are covering it,
it's done in a very different level, if I'm going to be very
honest about it. And I think it's important to
have hyper local journalist, youknow, and I think that's also
very important for them to tell these stories.
And so I, I really do encourage folks to really share stories,
(38:20):
to start a podcast or do Tik Toks.
I mean, because it's because thefringe narratives from the right
wing have been infiltrating. And I think our role is to
intercept them, but also to create the narratives that are
coming from our community's voices.
(38:42):
And I think that what you're. Doing is very.
Vital so I I really am so thankful for you on that How do
you and your colleagues take care of yourselves like and each
other like in a collective care level on this Oh yeah I mean I
I. Can't necessarily speak for
everyone, but I do know that some of my colleagues are doing
(39:03):
these same things. So like I'll speak for myself
with the understanding that someother people are also using
these tools. I go to therapy all the time.
I've been going to the, I know you and I had talked about this
a little bit before, but I regularly see a therapist and I
think it's important not just ifyou're a lawyer or in a lawyer
(39:27):
in a hot field, but for anyone. I think it is taught me a lot
about myself and like how I process stress and also help me
work through a lot of strain andactually see someone private.
But I also see someone through an organization that we have
called the Lawyer's Assistance Program that provides free
(39:48):
services to attorneys and law students in the state.
And I feel incredibly grateful to have that support, both like
from a therapeutic sense and from like a communal sense as
well. And I try to stay as active as I
can, even if it's just saying nowalk.
I try to do things that bring mejoy.
(40:10):
And I try to limit the news as much as I can.
I'm not very good at it. I read a lot of news.
I stay on social media. I doom scroll on X because I
find that it does provide a lot of like news that I don't see
elsewhere. And so I think staying informed
(40:31):
to a point helps me feel more incontrol.
And I know some people might have their anxiety fueled,
especially some of my colleagues.
But for me, when I know what's to be expected, I feel more
secure. But I think, and this is
something that I think is like the benefit of getting older or
(40:54):
growing up a bit more. I think during the first
administration, I felt for the Trump administration, I felt so
much more stress and inability to manage that stress and how it
affected me in other parts of mylife.
But I feel like the benefit of seeing so much happen between
(41:17):
2020 and now is that this too shall pass.
I, I don't know how or when. I hope it's in, you know,
selfishly and personally, I hopeit's in less than 3:00-ish
years, but it will pass. We will get through it.
(41:40):
Like I feel very strongly about that.
So I think that's something thatlike helps me get through the
day. I take care of myself is the
recognition that things do change and evolve.
And just because this is a reality now doesn't mean that
it's going to be a reality forever.
And so I, I do know a lot of my colleagues do similar things, go
(42:02):
to therapy, take care of themselves, speak to others
within our field and outside of that.
But I, well, we have Facebook groups and social media groups
where we're able to exchange thoughts and, like, connect with
each other across the country. But I also just feel like
connecting with community has been very helpful and actually
(42:23):
getting to speak with friends and family.
And that has kept me sane for a very long time.
Yeah. What?
Should you? What advice would you give to
folks that are worried about their legal status and that do
not currently have legal representation?
(42:44):
What steps should they consider taking and especially if they
are low income in this case, I'dlike to kind of, you know, open
that floor up on what people cando.
Sure. I mean.
Fortunately, we do have a lot oforganizations in Illinois that
provide legal services and Immigration Services.
But what I would really recommend is that people get
(43:09):
things like powers of attorney or guardianship paperwork in
place, you know, reach out to different organizations or even
friends of friends. Like I have classmates that I
maybe talked to like every year or so from law school who
reached out and they just said, you know, so and so is worried.
(43:29):
I know them. Can they call you if they have
any concerns, even if they can'tnecessarily hire you?
And I think something that I've been trying to be more proactive
about is saying yes, like anyonein my network, if something is
going on and something is happening to them, I do want to
give them advice. You know, these things that we
(43:51):
learn in our own professional backgrounds are not just things
that we're learning in a vacuum.There's things that we can share
with others. And so like, I'm trying to
remember that one benefit to having this knowledge is that I
have this knowledge and experience and I can use that to
help people, even though they'renot a traditional client with
(44:11):
some like limitations, of course.
Because, you know, as attorneys,we have to make it clear, like,
is this legal advice? Is this privileged?
What are we doing and what are we providing?
But just trying to be more proactive is something that I've
been trying to work on it that Irecommend.
So like, for example, say you'resomeone who has no attorney,
(44:35):
can't really afford traditional legal services on the wait list
for a non profit or pro bono attorney.
And you know, you already have this paperwork in place that
provides some security, especially if you're in a mixed
status family. Just reaching out to people And
even saying like I've had friends who reach out to me on
Instagram and they say so and sois looking for an attorney.
(44:58):
We don't really know them, but they need help.
Can you give some advice? And I think like when we're
vulnerable and we tell people weneed help, yes, it can be scary.
But I've been able to connect with some people through, you
know, several degrees of separation and actually been
able to inform them and talk to them and give some advice and
(45:20):
learn from them as well. And I think that can be really
helpful even if you don't have the means to get a normal or
traditional attorney. What about those that?
Are undocumented or have DACA status, what's that route like
for for them in terms of legal representation versus those with
(45:40):
legal status or or a legal status is in jeopardy?
Yeah, so luckily, right. Now with DACA, USCIS or like
Citizenship and Immigration Services did say that they're
going to start processing DACA cases and applications for
initial applications for people who are outside of Texas based
on like a court case that came up a few months ago.
(46:03):
But what I would say for people with like for example, DACA is
make sure you're maintaining your status.
If you don't have an attorney, consider retaining someone or
working with a non profit. But if you don't have one, it's
understandable that you may not have the means.
But to, and I hate saying this 'cause I think people can be in
(46:25):
like wrong places at the wrong times, or our immigration laws
specifically don't really give room for people to have the
luxury of making a dumb mistake for lack of a better like way of
explaining it. And I hate to say this, but
telling people to like be as cautious as possible.
(46:49):
On one hand, you have to live your life and be the person that
you are, go to work, be with your family, be with your
friends. But on the other hand,
unfortunately, we are seeing people get stopped at traffic
stops, getting detained, you know, just going to work.
But being as cautious as possible and being mindful to
(47:11):
the extent that you can to make sure that you're in a situation
where even though you can't predict if you're going to be a
target for enforcement by immigration authorities, kind of
maintaining or minimizing the risk as much as possible.
Which I hate that we're putting the onus on clients at times.
(47:33):
But the reality is that we can'tcontrol the government, but we
can control how we act like. I don't leave without my Global
Entry card saying that I'm a citizen.
I don't leave the house without that in my wallet because I know
that's a very small scale, like way of maintaining control.
But I I don't leave without it because I don't want to be
(47:55):
caught without it. I don't want to create more room
for like confusion, say, like ifI see an ICE officer on the
street who looks at me and thinks, oh, like dark hair, not
traditional view of what an American person would look like.
I try to minimize that. And I advise clients like, even
(48:16):
if it's just carrying your documentation, that's something
I recommend and having more grace with people.
Like, I teach a course, a seminar every week.
And with some of the students, Isaid, you know, I don't know if
you have status concerns becauseI don't, I really don't.
(48:36):
And I don't ask. I just look at them as a human
being in my class that I'm engaging with and that I care
for. But I've told them, I said, you
know, I keep an eye on things. If things are crazy, I'm going
to move to virtual course settings so that we don't have
to be at more risk than we already are.
And unfortunately for people whoare undocumented, it is really
(48:56):
hard to advise in a situation where it seems like anyone could
be a target for enforcement. But recommending, you know,
seeking advice as much as they can if they think they have some
options for relief and similar advice of, you know, trying to
minimize any risk as much as they can with the understanding
(49:20):
that people still need to go outside, make livings, be with
others and community, go to houses of worship.
Like, there's only so much we can do as people.
But if we can control as much aswe can from our ends, hopefully
we'll be able to keep each othersafe.
Yeah, I want to say. Thank you so much for coming on
(49:41):
to my show at the last minute. Thank you to Nebula for bringing
us together. And I want to say thank you so
much for sharing the wisdom, your experience in the legal
profession on this. I think what you and so many
immigration attorneys across theUS are doing is so vital to the
(50:02):
lives of so many people. And in the time where we are
dealing with so much uncertaintyand fear, I do have some
reassurances when I look at people like yourself, folks that
are actually standing up for community members.
And I think this is a really good reminder that yes, about
(50:24):
things are very dire right now and things can obviously change
in 48 hours. I also am a full believer that
we as a community can really work to withstand and also to
really make things difficult forthe the powers that be.
They're trying to destroy communities.
(50:46):
So really, from the bottom of myheart, really thank you so much
for being on. I don't know if you have any
closing remarks too before, before we close off.
Yeah. In terms of like closing
remarks, I just, especially overthe past year and a half, I've
realized how important communityis to me and how much it not
(51:08):
only like gives me joy, but alsomakes me feel safe and secure in
my position in the world and with my identities.
And like, I don't think I could have gotten through when I think
about like, you know, coming up to 10 years in practice, I could
not have gotten through these ten years without the people in
(51:32):
my life like Nebula who connected us, but other people
too, you know, family, friends, colleagues.
And I think my best advice for like closing remarks is
something I've been doing lately, not just like in the
immigration context, but sometimes I send it to clients
too. When I think of someone, I reach
(51:54):
out to them and I see how they're doing.
This is like a tough time for somany people, not just
immigration related. And I think if you're wondering,
like, not just yourself or myself, but if you're just out
in this world and you're thinking, I wonder how this
person is doing, Are they OK? Anytime someone reaches out to
me, it feels like an outpouring of love and support, even if
(52:20):
it's just like a small message of, you know, how are you?
I'm thinking of you during this time for this reason.
And I would just say like, there's no step too small.
Just sending a message and saying, like, I'm supporting you
today is such a wonderful thing.And I think it's great, like, to
see like large scale actions andprotests.
(52:41):
But I just wouldn't underestimate the power of like
a small act too. Thank you so much.
And best of luck to you and yourclients and navigating through
this uncertainty and keep up thewonderful work.
Thank you. I.
Appreciate it and same to you. I got to listen to some of your
episodes today. Thank you working SO.
(53:02):
It was. It was.
Cool to learn about other thingsthat you've been focusing on, so
thank you. Yeah.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Bundy Chronicles podcast.
This is an emergency episode, sothe time stamp is Tuesday,
October 7th, 6 O 4:00 PM. And I am joined with Marisse
Azimi, who is an immigration attorney.
And I want to shout out my good friend Nebula Lee, who
(00:26):
introduced me to Marisse. Because right now I feel this is
very important to get into kind of the weeds with the legal
issues that are facing immigrants in Chicago as we
speak, both for those that are undocumented and for those that
have legal status. And Marisa, I would like for you
(00:49):
to introduce more about the workthat you do.
Sure, sure. And of course, shout out to
Nebula for connecting us. My name is Paddy Sasimi and I
have been practicing immigrationlaw for 10 years.
Next month flew by. You know, it's, it's been a
little crazy. I started working for a
nonprofit for a little while andthen I transitioned to working
(01:11):
for two different smaller private firms.
And I've actually been practicing on my own since 2019.
And I work in immigration law. Most, not most.
Well, it might be most. A good chunk of immigration
lawyers tend to work in private settings or solo practice
settings, and some also work in nonprofits.
(01:33):
And essentially we have government attorneys who also
work in immigration law, but they work on the prosecutorial
side. I personally work in private
immigration. I work on a variety of different
matters, but a lot of the work Ido involves removal defense and
deportation defense for individuals who are in
proceedings, whether they entered, you know, yesterday or
(01:55):
20 years ago, green card holder or not.
I just generally represent a lotof people in those proceedings.
And as of recently, I've been going back and forth to
immigration court a lot more than I used to, but I've always
kind of settled into that area of practice.
Thank you so much for sharing. And also I want to offer a
(02:17):
trigger warning that there's going to be conversations
dealing with deportation and ICEraids.
So for listeners, I I ask that you be gentle of yourself as
you're listening and hopefully this information will be very
useful. And I want to say, Marisse, like
(02:37):
I am very curious ever since Trump took office this year, and
I know that it has escalated with the deportation issues.
But what do you feel has changedin terms of the current laws and
the way proceedings are happening on deportations?
(02:58):
Because I think that this is this is very different than when
he first took office in 2017 versus now.
Definitely. I mean, I think for for me,
there were things that I expected and there were things
that really surprised me. I expected, based on my
experience with the first administration, an uptick in
(03:20):
detentions for sure. I didn't expect that it would be
to this scale or with, you know,ICE involvement, National Guard
involvement. I also generally expected a lot
of changes to be coming in quickly because during the first
administration, there were about800 to 900 changes to
(03:42):
immigration law and policy during the first Trump
administration. But at this point, there's been
so many changes. I heard a rumor at some point
that this is actually more changes to immigration law and
policy already, but I'm not positive about that.
I just, I think something to really like keep in mind is the
(04:02):
magnitude of everything. I for me, like what really
shocked me when I started practicing again and after the
inauguration was the sheer amount of people being detained,
the sheer amount of like ice presence.
And I, I think brutality is a strong word, but I, I mostly
(04:29):
think say that because like, I believe that the tactics that
we've seen on certain videos andphotos have been extreme and far
more violent and aggressive thanI've ever seen from ICE
officers. But I also know not everyone has
been engaging in those particular tactics.
So I do feel like there's definitely been an uptick in
(04:52):
aggression and in some cases definitely brutality in terms of
ICE detentions and how they proceed in the day-to-day
context. And something that's really
stood out for me is also I, I think there used to be
predictability in the sense of like when a client came to me
(05:14):
and said, how can I guarantee that I won't be detained in
prior administrations? I would say, you know, we live
in Chicago, we're sanctuary city.
CPD does not have the same kind of ice holes in place that would
require them to have someone detained shortly after release
from like criminal arrest or detentions.
(05:35):
But basically, I would tell clients, you know, if you have
something pending, if you don't have any arrest history, if you
have, you know your documentation on you.
In the past, I would say that isgenerally enough to keep you
secure. But now it really is like there
are no rules anymore. It's really started to feel like
the wild, Wild West in the sensethat clients maybe not
(05:59):
necessarily are just mine, but people are being detained with
active cases, no arrest history,no issues whatsoever, or at
least no issues that I would consider making them a priority
for enforcement by ICE. And so that's been very
intimidating and very scary where a lot of people are very
concerned, not because of just the fact that there's ICE
(06:23):
present, but because of the factthat there's no real like
criteria for who wouldn't be an enforcement priority.
I feel like sometimes anyone's an enforcement priority.
Even for myself walking around as a citizen, I, I feel nervous
sometimes walking into court because it just feels like we're
(06:45):
walking into a place where we don't know what's going to
happen or what it's going to look like.
I mean, ISIS gone into immigration courts and detained
people after their hearings. It's just a very different
setting, different worlds, yeah.Yeah, that is incredibly
jarring. And this is the reality that we
(07:05):
are facing. And we're seeing ICE agents go
very rogue and and going into places that they really aren't
supposed to be at. But you know, here we are.
I mean, there's also the warrantless, the warrantless
searches, searches. And I also wonder what has the
(07:26):
response been from from like theassociation, like the I can't
even think of the word right where at the moment.
But yeah, like, what has the response, the collective
responses, been with lawyers in Illinois and Chicago and also
from the state and local government?
(07:49):
Yeah, I feel like we're very lucky, at least with, you know,
some of our main state and federal and local leadership in
the sense that Illinois is a blue state and we live in
Chicago. And for the most part, people
have been in in power, people inleadership have been very upset
and very frustrated by the situations that have been taking
(08:10):
place since January. And I do feel like we are
privileged in general to live inan area like Chicago where we
are generally welcoming towards immigrants.
But unfortunately that has also led to more enforcement in
Chicago. I do feel like the lawyer
(08:31):
response has generally been veryone.
A lot of immigration lawyers that I know are definitely
feeling a lot of pressure and stress and some signs of
burnout. And I think that's pretty
common. But we're very lucky.
Like the American Immigration Lawyers Association and other
private bar associations have really taken a stand against a
(08:53):
lot of different immigration policy changes and process
changes over the past few months.
So that is a very fortunate thing for us.
But I, I do feel like in some ways my viewpoint of what other
lawyers think is skewed. And I don't know if you noticed
this yourself too. I mean, I feel like I'm very
fortunate and that I have a lot of colleagues and friends in
(09:16):
this field, whether they're immigration lawyer or not, who
are more progressive or more liberal or more anti immigration
enforcement to this extent. And so I do feel like fortunate
for that. But I also recognize that I'm
sure there are people in other parts of this country or even
the state who are less supportive.
(09:38):
I just feel very privileged to, like be able to say that.
That's my personal experience and narrative.
Have you worked with clients outside or Chicago?
And I'm also very curious about the dynamics and other cities
and nearby towns adjacent to Chicago.
Sure. I've definitely worked with the
clients outside of Chicago, but for the most part I did that
(10:01):
during the first trip administration.
So I've represented clients in Texas and I've especially worked
in detained courts in Texas. I've had some hearings in New
Mexico courts. I also have had clients in like
California, for example, the NewYork, New Jersey area and other
parts of the Midwest or the Mideast.
So a lot of cases in Michigan, as an example, in some cases
(10:24):
sporadically, like in Louisiana.I've talked to people recently,
you know, on the Pacific Northwest.
So the general theme, I think isfear and strain and concern.
Even for people who are in like safer or traditionally safer
areas, there's been a lot of concern.
(10:47):
I think that's like the one universal factor for me that
I've seen is that everyone is worried no matter where they
are. What steps have you been
advising clients right now, especially in this very
uncertain and dangerous time? What steps are you able to
(11:09):
advise on what to do, especiallyin cases where maybe there's a
final deportation or maybe that there is a hearing that they
have to go to? You know, I'm, I'm very curious
about like the pivot that you have to make and, and
adjustments that you have to make to inform clients to make
(11:31):
and protect themselves. Sure.
Some of the things that I've been advising are, you know,
keep copies of your ID or documentation on you, especially
if you're travelling that from my client's side, you know, like
as a practicing lawyer, when a client is concerned about
detention, I say, you know, if you have ice at your door, do
(11:55):
not open the door. If they have a warrant, they
will let you know. But I always tell clients, text
me, call me. I'm I'm a solo practitioner so
sometimes my phone availability is a little funky for lack of a
better word, depending on the day or if I'm in a hearing.
But I've always told clients that said, if ice comes to your
(12:18):
door, if you see them somewhere like immediately let me know.
But for the most part, keeping documentation handy, staying as
vigilant as possible when going outside, checking ice tracking
apps. To be honest, I don't have them
downloaded on my phone. I just trust communal, like
sharing in terms of seeing what my community is sending and
(12:38):
letting people know. But definitely just advising
people to lay low. Let me know if they have any
encounters with law enforcement,keep their documentation handy
and, you know, reach out if ICE comes near them or to their
homes. And then, like, a big shift I've
seen is with people being detained in immigration courts.
(13:02):
For the most part, clients in the past have never really
hesitated to go to court. But lately, I've been seeing a
lot of hesitation and fear aboutactually going to immigration
court or going to immigration appointments.
I feel that, too. I mean, when I go, I'm worried
that someone's going to be detained.
That's the last thing I want forany client.
(13:23):
I actually had a client detainedin front of me during the first
Trump administration. And even though we had some
expectation that it could happenand we had prepared, it is a
very intimidating and scary experience.
And so I understand the hesitations, But there's
definitely been a lot more pushback about, you know,
(13:44):
whether someone needs to go to court if they're going to be
detained, and a lot more fear inthat sense.
And I've noticed that a lot of judges have been really gracious
about allowing people to appear virtually, but there's still
definitely a shift in attitudes about who's allowed to appear
virtually. Wow, that is really important to
(14:05):
us though, you know, no, to be able to really share this.
And I also wonder about what goes through when a client calls
you, the ice is at their door. What are?
What steps do you take when thathappens?
(14:25):
Yeah, So it, it had happened in terms of like people being
detained and contacted me after the fact or, you know, working
with the client and thinking, OK, maybe you'll be detained and
having that experience of being prepared for that.
Typically in advance. If I think someone's far more
vulnerable based on their position, I'll request certain
(14:48):
documents to have on hand and I'll inform clients that you
know, and luckily when I'm working with someone already,
I'll have a lot of these documents handy.
But essentially making sure thatI have like in terms of my own
firm safety planning that we have what we would need to file
a bare bones bond motion, an emergency bond motion in case
(15:12):
someone is detained. And we want to make sure we can
get things going as quickly as possible.
But something that this was the first time it happened for me,
you know, I've always told clients, if ice comes to your
door, it's a true emergency and I will be there for you and we
will figure out how to handle this.
But I had never had that experience before this year
(15:34):
where actually someone came to their door.
And it's definitely a very sobering moment.
Basically, he texted me. I immediately jumped on the
phone. My client, when ICE came to his
building trying to get into his apartment and we talked about
how he should not open the door,not answer the door, that if
(15:54):
they had a warrant, we would request it.
And we were on the phone a lot throughout that day and even
since then, it's been a few months.
But another thing that we did was we contacted ICE via e-mail
and I explained to them, you know, this is my client, this is
the situation. In my opinion, he wasn't a
priority for enforcement. So I didn't understand why ICE
(16:15):
was there necessarily, but reaching out to the ICE office
in Chicago via electronic mail or physical mail to explain to
them, you know, this person is represented, he's not alone in
this. And, you know, asking them to
communicate with us if possible.And unfortunately, I didn't hear
back from ICE ever. In that certain circumstance.
(16:37):
ICE has come back and forth to this person's place of
residence. But it's definitely a moment
when you see it where you're like, oh, this is really an
emergency. Like when I saw that text
message of oh I sits at my door,it it really hit me that this is
just a completely different world from what I'm used to.
(16:59):
When you, when you have had to work with clients that are in
detention centers like I, I Broadview for example, which is
now like a, which is a battle zone at the moment, you know,
with protesters being violently attacked.
And I would like to kind of get your take on what has that
(17:19):
experience been like working with the ICE detention centers
when you have clients, I presumethat are they're being detained
there? So in general and and I try to
be like fair to people when I can.
I've generally had very kind officers at deportation centers.
(17:42):
I haven't really done a lot of engagement with Broadview unless
the client is actively being processed for deportation or
removal. But for the most part, with the
detention centers I've spoken with and worked with for various
clients throughout the years, they've generally been very kind
and helpful as much as they can be to make sure that the people
(18:04):
who are inside have access to their counsel.
It can be tough. I think more so in the past or
depending on the center because their private facilities are
like local facilities that have immigration detention as a part
of their space or agreements. It's hard because each center is
(18:24):
a very different experience and can provide very different
resources. And I hate seeing amenities
because I feel like that's not the right phrase or word for
this situation. But some of them, for example,
provide like texting options so that clients can still send
messages to us or send messages to their family and loved ones.
(18:47):
Some of them allow for like, video conferencing on iPads or
other tablets. So like for the most part, the
officers have been kind to me asan attorney trying to, you know,
represent my client, But I I also still recognize that it's
detention. And so I've had a lot of clients
(19:08):
throughout the years tell me that, especially for those who
have been in criminal detention or arrested prisons before,
sharing to me that this is a farworse circumstance to be in than
whatever criminal jail or prisonthey were in before.
I find that because a lot of these institutions are privately
(19:30):
owned or run, there aren't as many guarantees in terms of like
day-to-day access to medical care, for example.
And so that has been really challenging.
And talking to people who are detained, it's very sobering.
(19:50):
I think about lockdown a lot when I think about like my
experience inside waiting for people to be able to go active
again. And I think that isolation and
fear is really hard on a lot of clients.
And so I've definitely had some conversations with people who
are in detention that like do not leave my mind very easily.
(20:15):
Just things that make you reallyreflect on like how privileged
we are for the most part, like I.
I remember leaving a detention facility in Texas a few years
ago after seeing a client and just thinking I get to go and
sit in this room and watch TV and do whatever I need to do in
(20:36):
this hotel after before going home and seeing my family.
And like being able to be out with other people and just
thinking like from one person tothe other.
I no one really deserves to feelthis alone and dehumanized.
I really appreciate you, you know, sharing these stories and
(21:00):
also kind of giving a giving a very important glance on what is
happening to people being detained.
And there's been a lot of cases where people have been
disappeared through ICE and there's been situations where
they're getting transported to different States and different
places where lawyers scrambling,family members scrambling to
(21:22):
find out where their loved ones are being detained at.
What can you share about what's going on with that and, and
maybe shed some light maybe intoyour experience of what you've
heard from other colleagues in Illinois about situations like
that because ICE again, is goingvery rogue.
I mean, it's they're certainly turning the tables and
(21:43):
accelerating to the point where it's hard for lawyers to catch
up and the courts that is too. Yeah.
I mean, honestly, it's, I think the big thing for me that I
always think about is the lack of information that we're given
as practitioners. Like, one would think in theory
that a lawyer for someone would be informed every time their
(22:06):
clients moved or, you know, havelike, more information in
advance than we actually get. I've been really lucky.
I haven't really had clients move to places like Alligator
Alcatraz. And I know there are a lot of
people still missing and unaccounted for.
I didn't have anyone sent to El Salvador, to that prison or
detention center there. I know someone who has at least
(22:28):
one person or one colleague, andfor the most part my clients who
have been detained have been detained after or sorry before
they became my client and not necessarily detained as my
client, if that makes sense. But it's definitely very scary
(22:50):
to be left out in the dark and to not even know where your
client is. I actually was on a virtual
hearing for a different client afew months ago, and I was just
listening in the background and someone was talking about how,
you know, for detained clients, for detained cases, typically in
(23:10):
Chicago, what happens is we havepeople being video calls from
detention centers. They don't actually come up to
Chicago courts to have their hearings.
Those hearings are virtual for the people who are detained.
And for us, depending on the judge, we either go in person or
virtually. And I was sitting on a virtual
call, a court call, listening, and someone from one detention
(23:35):
center mentioned that a bunch ofpeople had just been moved to
another detention center in the Mideast.
And I had another client in thatcenter at the time.
And that's how I learned she wasmoved.
Like to me, it's just crazy thatthat's just how you learn
someone has been moved. And because it was a different
(23:57):
center, she couldn't call us. She couldn't text me like she
normally would. I had to look it up and schedule
a different call with her through a different center to
talk to her and actually get into the details.
But why she was moved And it, itmakes it very hard to do our
work. But I feel very like, again,
(24:18):
privileged and fortunate. You know, I know how to reach
these people. I know how to find these
resources. I'm on this call and I'm paying
attention and I'm aware of what's happening.
But for people whose families may not have the same like
Internet savvy skills or, you know, tech skills or time during
the work day, it's definitely very frustrating and
(24:42):
disheartening for people who arejust being moved at the whims.
And it's not even necessarily for a bad reason.
Like, for example, there they were saying it's overcrowding.
We want to move people so they have more space, which is a
safety concern. But there's no communication.
I mean, I, I know someone who had a client moved to El
Salvador. That client was supposed to have
(25:04):
a hearing coming up in a few days and he had no notice
whatsoever that his client had been moved.
He had to know because he was looking and checking online and
he couldn't find the status of his client.
And I should elaborate. There's something called the ICE
detainee locator. So there's a way to check if
someone is being detained or if they're detained in a particular
(25:26):
place. There's some information you'll
need like place of birth, date of birth, full legal name,
things like that. So there are ways to find
someone, but if someone's on route to another facility,
you're not going to see any status updates for them really.
You'll be told to call the ICE office in Chicago, and then that
office will, if you're lucky, maybe pick up a handful out of
(25:50):
100 times calling. What has, what have or what are
you seeing from Chicago in termsof their response of I know,
yeah, you had earlier talked about this, but I definitely
want to like go back to that question.
What have they been able to advise with you?
(26:11):
Like what policy, what are they trying to do to slow down the
national government's involvement?
Now I know we got the National Guard coming over to Chicago
from Texas, Illinois being activated.
I am wondering what could the state actually do, especially in
this situation, and how can it in a way, or how can they in a
(26:34):
ways try to prevent immediate deportations and detainment?
I think in terms of what the state can do, it of course is
really challenging because they're up against the federal
government. But I think that in terms of our
like governor and our mayor and our leadership, we, we do have
(26:57):
this like fortunate position of having leadership that is very
active and involved in making sure that people are informed
that Immigration Services are accessible and working to, for
example, file a lawsuit to prevent the National Guard from
from coming to Chicago or Illinois in general.
And in terms of, you know, what I think people are doing in the
(27:21):
community, I love that, you know, storefronts and
shopkeepers and people in the community are just shooting
pictures and telling the people in their communities, you know,
ICE is here at this intersectionor in this neighborhood.
Be careful. Watch out.
I just feel like as a community,not just lawyers and legal
(27:42):
organizations, because a lot of our legal organizations are
doing great things to get the word out.
I just feel like there is a lot of community support that forget
his last name, but I think it was the CBP director when he was
talking about how, like, Chicagois very prepared and that's why
it's made it so difficult for ICE to meet their targets or for
(28:04):
CBP to meet their targets in Chicago for detention.
I think that says a lot about how as a society we have decided
that this is not acceptable to us.
And I'm glad we have government officials that represent those
views, too. I think that's really important
because this is something that I'm very proud of with Chicago.
And I say this with, with clear and unapologetic bias because
(28:28):
it's, it's a city that has been a progressive bastion for so
long. Black and Latino, Asian, those
community members have really been known to activate and be
very vigilant about their communities.
And I think that's very important.
And, and I'm also like very encouraged when I start seeing
(28:53):
storefronts also telling them not to use our bathroom.
We're not going to start. And you know what?
That's, I think that is just another inconvenient way of
trying to distract and make things very difficult.
And I, and I will just say that because I know you're in the
legal backwards, I'm going to bevery careful about how I share
my own politics. But I do think that that
(29:16):
community support has to be amplified.
And I feel like the work that you're doing, but what legal
organizations, firms is like really trying to protect people
and getting proper legal representation and also trying
(29:39):
to document what is happening inthese detention centers and, and
how they're being abducted. And I think this is something
that we really have to name. Like this is the these are
abductions and forced disappearances.
And I think that has to be part of the lexicon and how we
(29:59):
describe this. This is not just a typical
routine, you know, and I also there are people that will say,
well, Biden has done it, Obama has done it.
Yes, like, let's be very honest,Like that has happened under
those administrations. But with the Republicans,
specifically with the Trump administration, that has
escalated to another level. But also going after U.S.
(30:20):
citizens. Have you had situations where
you've had clients or other other lawyers have had clients
having to represent even U.S. citizens that are being
detained? I have heard of it.
I personally haven't, and I'm soglad I haven't had clients who
are U.S. citizens who have been detained.
(30:42):
But I think it is a very sobering thing and I think it
says a lot about how brazen everything has become.
Like, for me, I, I criticize this country and politics a lot.
I try to be a little bit more diplomatic about it sometimes.
And especially when I'm working in environments where I'm not
(31:05):
the boss, essentially, you know,and especially like when working
with government officers for like, for example, when I go to
a government appointment, I try to be mindful that we all have
jobs to do and that in most circumstances, it's best for me
to be cordial and cooperative and work with an officer.
And I've had a lot of good case wins recently.
(31:28):
But I think, and I've criticizedmany a president, Democrat or
Republican. But for me, like the thing that
I've seen that's really different with this presidency
and this administration is how brazen and open people have been
about like othering people and profiling others.
(31:50):
I mean, even the Supreme Court rubber stamping racial profiling
in LA. And I feel very lucky that I
haven't had any citizen clients detained.
But I know that people are scared and very aware of their
privilege or lack of privilege in how they present in the
(32:10):
world. Not just people of color, like
working in the immigration sphere, but also like friends
who are, for example, like LGBTQIA plus, like identifying
in that sense. And I even feel nervous on the
street. I know, like I speak generally
on accented English and I'm out in the world as a citizen who
(32:31):
was born here. But I actually, and I haven't
talked about it a lot, but my parents a few months ago
actually texted me and they said, so like, if you're
detained, who helps you? I'm like, can you send us the
phone number? Because my parents are, you
know, like immigrant parents, very concerned, want to make
sure I'm OK Didn't really know alot of lawyers before I went to
(32:55):
law school. And I just think that says a lot
about like the rate at which people are being detained when
they have every right to due process and to be out in the
world moving exactly how they are.
And I think it's just very, verysad that there are not just
citizens being detained, but people who are scared about
(33:17):
detention, who have like all theprivileges that we would think
would keep them safe. What can?
You share to community allies asfar as like what do you think
would be best ways to support your clients support your work.
I'm, I think this is, I always am a believer that we all need
(33:39):
find to find ways to support people really doing the
essential work in this. And lawyers are definitely front
people on the front lines. And I would like to see how you
would like to share about your thoughts on the community's
involvement and what it means and how they can help to amplify
(34:02):
and support this important work.Yeah.
I mean, I think in terms of likewhat we are seeing in Chicago, I
think it is amazing already. And I would say for the most
part to keep doing what we're doing, keep videoing when people
are getting stopped and when yousee something is going on that's
(34:22):
not right or not sitting right with you, keep protesting and
keep advocating for equality andhumanity.
And, you know, in a private setting, it's very different
because I recognize that I'm being compensated directly for
the work I'm doing. But I would also say, you know,
to think about like the various immigration organizations in our
(34:44):
communities, if someone's tryingto like physically donate
because. And not just attorneys, but, you
know, community activists and organizing as well, because I
think there are some bigger organizations, but there are
also a lot of smaller scale organizations that do very good
(35:04):
work that's very meaningful. There are also organizations and
bar associations like the National Lawyers Guild that
provide legal observing. And I think those groups are
instrumental in helping with community support and sharing
widespread information and giving trainings about people's
rights during ICE detention or stops.
(35:27):
And I would also, honestly, I think the biggest thing I would
say to do that isn't necessarilybeing done on a widespread scale
is for people to actually observe hearings if they can, to
come to the courts, to come to these spaces where people are
(35:49):
being targeted. Whether you're incidentally, for
example, at a school where ICE is trying to enter, or if you're
going to the courthouse to observe hearings and to make
sure people's rights are being protected.
I think when we stand up for each other, we really help
(36:10):
bolster people's, I'm sorry, I'mlosing the word right now, but
I, I know what I'm trying to getat, which is that it, it is so
meaningful to people when they see others showing up for them.
And I think it just shows the strength in our humanity when we
treat people with respect for existing, not because of any
(36:31):
particular actions. Like I think when people tell
ice, no, you can't come into theschool or hospital to dating
this person. It's a very scary thing to sit
there and say like we're going to push against the government,
the force of law, but it shows other people that their lives
have value, not just the people who know them, but to their
(36:51):
communities. I really appreciate this
because. I think that this is how we
build momentum. It's how we build momentum to
recognize that, yes, ice is not welcome here.
And even though the work that I do puts me in danger, you know,
doing this and also for you and everyone else getting involved
(37:13):
with it, I also feel like this is the time I think that that
it's like speak now or forever hold your peace and that forever
hold your peace is basically a enforced 1.
And I it's. Hard for me to.
Wrestle with that conscious likethis, this, this, this really
upsetting consciousness that's been really at me for the last
(37:35):
few weeks, you know, seeing what's going on and, and how can
I help to amplify that? And I feel that bringing people
like yourself on is vital because I think bringing this
information to communities that do not know the full narratives
of what's going on, because mainstream legacy media are not
(37:55):
really covering it. And if they are covering it,
it's done in a very different level, if I'm going to be very
honest about it. And I think it's important to
have hyper local journalist, youknow, and I think that's also
very important for them to tell these stories.
And so I, I really do encourage folks to really share stories,
(38:20):
to start a podcast or do Tik Toks.
I mean, because it's because thefringe narratives from the right
wing have been infiltrating. And I think our role is to
intercept them, but also to create the narratives that are
coming from our community's voices.
(38:42):
And I think that what you're. Doing is very.
Vital so I I really am so thankful for you on that How do
you and your colleagues take care of yourselves like and each
other like in a collective care level on this Oh yeah I mean I
I. Can't necessarily speak for
everyone, but I do know that some of my colleagues are doing
(39:03):
these same things. So like I'll speak for myself
with the understanding that someother people are also using
these tools. I go to therapy all the time.
I've been going to the, I know you and I had talked about this
a little bit before, but I regularly see a therapist and I
think it's important not just ifyou're a lawyer or in a lawyer
(39:27):
in a hot field, but for anyone. I think it is taught me a lot
about myself and like how I process stress and also help me
work through a lot of strain andactually see someone private.
But I also see someone through an organization that we have
called the Lawyer's Assistance Program that provides free
(39:48):
services to attorneys and law students in the state.
And I feel incredibly grateful to have that support, both like
from a therapeutic sense and from like a communal sense as
well. And I try to stay as active as I
can, even if it's just saying nowalk.
I try to do things that bring mejoy.
(40:10):
And I try to limit the news as much as I can.
I'm not very good at it. I read a lot of news.
I stay on social media. I doom scroll on X because I
find that it does provide a lot of like news that I don't see
elsewhere. And so I think staying informed
(40:31):
to a point helps me feel more incontrol.
And I know some people might have their anxiety fueled,
especially some of my colleagues.
But for me, when I know what's to be expected, I feel more
secure. But I think, and this is
something that I think is like the benefit of getting older or
(40:54):
growing up a bit more. I think during the first
administration, I felt for the Trump administration, I felt so
much more stress and inability to manage that stress and how it
affected me in other parts of mylife.
But I feel like the benefit of seeing so much happen between
(41:17):
2020 and now is that this too shall pass.
I, I don't know how or when. I hope it's in, you know,
selfishly and personally, I hopeit's in less than 3:00-ish
years, but it will pass. We will get through it.
(41:40):
Like I feel very strongly about that.
So I think that's something thatlike helps me get through the
day. I take care of myself is the
recognition that things do change and evolve.
And just because this is a reality now doesn't mean that
it's going to be a reality forever.
And so I, I do know a lot of my colleagues do similar things, go
(42:02):
to therapy, take care of themselves, speak to others
within our field and outside of that.
But I, well, we have Facebook groups and social media groups
where we're able to exchange thoughts and, like, connect with
each other across the country. But I also just feel like
connecting with community has been very helpful and actually
(42:23):
getting to speak with friends and family.
And that has kept me sane for a very long time.
Yeah. What?
Should you? What advice would you give to
folks that are worried about their legal status and that do
not currently have legal representation?
(42:44):
What steps should they consider taking and especially if they
are low income in this case, I'dlike to kind of, you know, open
that floor up on what people cando.
Sure. I mean.
Fortunately, we do have a lot oforganizations in Illinois that
provide legal services and Immigration Services.
But what I would really recommend is that people get
(43:09):
things like powers of attorney or guardianship paperwork in
place, you know, reach out to different organizations or even
friends of friends. Like I have classmates that I
maybe talked to like every year or so from law school who
reached out and they just said, you know, so and so is worried.
(43:29):
I know them. Can they call you if they have
any concerns, even if they can'tnecessarily hire you?
And I think something that I've been trying to be more proactive
about is saying yes, like anyonein my network, if something is
going on and something is happening to them, I do want to
give them advice. You know, these things that we
(43:51):
learn in our own professional backgrounds are not just things
that we're learning in a vacuum.There's things that we can share
with others. And so like, I'm trying to
remember that one benefit to having this knowledge is that I
have this knowledge and experience and I can use that to
help people, even though they'renot a traditional client with
(44:11):
some like limitations, of course.
Because, you know, as attorneys,we have to make it clear, like,
is this legal advice? Is this privileged?
What are we doing and what are we providing?
But just trying to be more proactive is something that I've
been trying to work on it that Irecommend.
So like, for example, say you'resomeone who has no attorney,
(44:35):
can't really afford traditional legal services on the wait list
for a non profit or pro bono attorney.
And you know, you already have this paperwork in place that
provides some security, especially if you're in a mixed
status family. Just reaching out to people And
even saying like I've had friends who reach out to me on
Instagram and they say so and sois looking for an attorney.
(44:58):
We don't really know them, but they need help.
Can you give some advice? And I think like when we're
vulnerable and we tell people weneed help, yes, it can be scary.
But I've been able to connect with some people through, you
know, several degrees of separation and actually been
able to inform them and talk to them and give some advice and
(45:20):
learn from them as well. And I think that can be really
helpful even if you don't have the means to get a normal or
traditional attorney. What about those that?
Are undocumented or have DACA status, what's that route like
for for them in terms of legal representation versus those with
(45:40):
legal status or or a legal status is in jeopardy?
Yeah, so luckily, right. Now with DACA, USCIS or like
Citizenship and Immigration Services did say that they're
going to start processing DACA cases and applications for
initial applications for people who are outside of Texas based
on like a court case that came up a few months ago.
(46:03):
But what I would say for people with like for example, DACA is
make sure you're maintaining your status.
If you don't have an attorney, consider retaining someone or
working with a non profit. But if you don't have one, it's
understandable that you may not have the means.
But to, and I hate saying this 'cause I think people can be in
(46:25):
like wrong places at the wrong times, or our immigration laws
specifically don't really give room for people to have the
luxury of making a dumb mistake for lack of a better like way of
explaining it. And I hate to say this, but
telling people to like be as cautious as possible.
(46:49):
On one hand, you have to live your life and be the person that
you are, go to work, be with your family, be with your
friends. But on the other hand,
unfortunately, we are seeing people get stopped at traffic
stops, getting detained, you know, just going to work.
But being as cautious as possible and being mindful to
(47:11):
the extent that you can to make sure that you're in a situation
where even though you can't predict if you're going to be a
target for enforcement by immigration authorities, kind of
maintaining or minimizing the risk as much as possible.
Which I hate that we're putting the onus on clients at times.
(47:33):
But the reality is that we can'tcontrol the government, but we
can control how we act like. I don't leave without my Global
Entry card saying that I'm a citizen.
I don't leave the house without that in my wallet because I know
that's a very small scale, like way of maintaining control.
But I I don't leave without it because I don't want to be
(47:55):
caught without it. I don't want to create more room
for like confusion, say, like ifI see an ICE officer on the
street who looks at me and thinks, oh, like dark hair, not
traditional view of what an American person would look like.
I try to minimize that. And I advise clients like, even
(48:16):
if it's just carrying your documentation, that's something
I recommend and having more grace with people.
Like, I teach a course, a seminar every week.
And with some of the students, Isaid, you know, I don't know if
you have status concerns becauseI don't, I really don't.
(48:36):
And I don't ask. I just look at them as a human
being in my class that I'm engaging with and that I care
for. But I've told them, I said, you
know, I keep an eye on things. If things are crazy, I'm going
to move to virtual course settings so that we don't have
to be at more risk than we already are.
And unfortunately for people whoare undocumented, it is really
(48:56):
hard to advise in a situation where it seems like anyone could
be a target for enforcement. But recommending, you know,
seeking advice as much as they can if they think they have some
options for relief and similar advice of, you know, trying to
minimize any risk as much as they can with the understanding
(49:20):
that people still need to go outside, make livings, be with
others and community, go to houses of worship.
Like, there's only so much we can do as people.
But if we can control as much aswe can from our ends, hopefully
we'll be able to keep each othersafe.
Yeah, I want to say. Thank you so much for coming on
(49:41):
to my show at the last minute. Thank you to Nebula for bringing
us together. And I want to say thank you so
much for sharing the wisdom, your experience in the legal
profession on this. I think what you and so many
immigration attorneys across theUS are doing is so vital to the
(50:02):
lives of so many people. And in the time where we are
dealing with so much uncertaintyand fear, I do have some
reassurances when I look at people like yourself, folks that
are actually standing up for community members.
And I think this is a really good reminder that yes, about
(50:24):
things are very dire right now and things can obviously change
in 48 hours. I also am a full believer that
we as a community can really work to withstand and also to
really make things difficult forthe the powers that be.
They're trying to destroy communities.
(50:46):
So really, from the bottom of myheart, really thank you so much
for being on. I don't know if you have any
closing remarks too before, before we close off.
Yeah. In terms of like closing
remarks, I just, especially overthe past year and a half, I've
realized how important communityis to me and how much it not
(51:08):
only like gives me joy, but alsomakes me feel safe and secure in
my position in the world and with my identities.
And like, I don't think I could have gotten through when I think
about like, you know, coming up to 10 years in practice, I could
not have gotten through these ten years without the people in
(51:32):
my life like Nebula who connected us, but other people
too, you know, family, friends, colleagues.
And I think my best advice for like closing remarks is
something I've been doing lately, not just like in the
immigration context, but sometimes I send it to clients
too. When I think of someone, I reach
(51:54):
out to them and I see how they're doing.
This is like a tough time for somany people, not just
immigration related. And I think if you're wondering,
like, not just yourself or myself, but if you're just out
in this world and you're thinking, I wonder how this
person is doing, Are they OK? Anytime someone reaches out to
me, it feels like an outpouring of love and support, even if
(52:20):
it's just like a small message of, you know, how are you?
I'm thinking of you during this time for this reason.
And I would just say like, there's no step too small.
Just sending a message and saying, like, I'm supporting you
today is such a wonderful thing.And I think it's great, like, to
see like large scale actions andprotests.
(52:41):
But I just wouldn't underestimate the power of like
a small act too. Thank you so much.
And best of luck to you and yourclients and navigating through
this uncertainty and keep up thewonderful work.
Thank you. I.
Appreciate it and same to you. I got to listen to some of your
episodes today. Thank you working SO.
(53:02):
It was. It was.
Cool to learn about other thingsthat you've been focusing on, so
thank you. Yeah.
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