September 21, 2025 • 30 mins
When Michael Minns and Blanca Barreras of Hayes Recruitment stepped into our new podcast studio, they brought fresh perspectives on how digital transformation is reshaping the recruitment landscape while preserving the irreplaceable human element at its core.
"Digital transformation is a technology solution to a business problem," Michael explains, cutting through the buzzwords to the heart of what matters for organizations of all sizes. With Hayes placing around 800 temporary workers weekly across Canberra's government and private sectors, they've witnessed firsthand how digital capabilities have become essential for every business – not just those in tech.
As AI reshapes recruitment processes, both experts maintain it serves as an assistant rather than a replacement. Michael predicts deeper AI integration by 2030 but emphasizes regulation will be the next frontier as capabilities double approximately every 30 days. "Until AI prompting is absolutely black and white, it's going to play a role, but never take over," he explains, highlighting why human intuition remains irreplaceable in matching the right people to the right opportunities.
Whether you're building your team, enhancing your digital capabilities, or navigating the AI revolution, this episode offers practical insights from recruitment professionals who understand both the technical and human sides of business success. Subscribe to the Canberra Business Podcast for more conversations that help you navigate today's complex business landscape.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast,
our podcasting to you for thefirst time from our new podcast
studio in Hobart Place.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm joined byMichael Minns, the National
Delivery Manager for HayesRecruitment, and Blanca Barreras
, a recruitment partner forHayes in relation to projects
and change.
So, michael and Blanca, welcometo the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thanks, greg, very fancy new digs.
Very much honoured to be thefirst to be contributing to a
podcast in this room.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, it's great to have you here, so tell us, for
our listeners, what is Hayes?
I mean, it's a brand namethat's been around for a long
time, it's big, will be known topeople, but what is it that you
do?
What are the services that youoffer?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, so obviously Hayes is a really large
multinational recruitmentcompany here in Canberra.
We're probably very synonymouswith delivery into federal
government in particular, asmost of the industry does here
in the nation's capital.
But we're specialist recruitersso we recruit across the whole
gamut of white-collar,blue-collar professional spaces.
(01:15):
So Blanca and I are both fromour technology delivery here in
Canberra, but we've got officesall over the country in every
state here Canberra, but we'vegot offices all over the country
in every state here.
We also recruit intoprofessional services, hr,
procurement, finance, as well asconstruction and property
policy and strategy as well.
So a very broad offering.
But we're quite a large,well-resourced recruitment
(01:37):
agency so we've probably got theprivilege of being able to be
quite specialised in our ownindividual markets.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, and how many people?
Just to give us an idea ofscale.
How many people are you placingin Canberra every year?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Plenty is the answer.
We're probably looking at, youknow, a weekly sort of payment
of close to 800 temp workersevery week across largely
federal government, as I said,but also into the private sector
and small businesses, and wealso are placing people
permanently with high regularityas well.
(02:12):
That those processes do take alittle bit longer, so not as
easy to measure each week, butit probably makes up a good 35
to 40 percent of our business aswell, that's a that's a good
size kind of placement right now.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I I mean it's the size of a small town in some
cases, so it's not to be sneezedat.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It definitely feels that way.
In Canberra it's very much thehappening place for anything to
do in the public sector, but itdoes feel like a very small town
a lot of the time.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, and your role, Michael.
What's your focus?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, so I lead up our technology team here in
Canberra.
Specifically, my role isNational Delivery Manager for
Federal Government Technology,so that's our primary customer
base.
We've also got a technologyteam based in all of our major
cities, so Sydney, melbourne,brisbane, adelaide, perth, to
name sort of the main ones.
(03:01):
But you know, I lead up thetechnology side of our delivery
and also sit on the ACTmanagement team, and that's
across the whole spectrum ofprofessional type roles that we
discussed earlier.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Fantastic.
So, Blanca, how do you fit intothe picture?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, fantastic.
So as a recruitment partner inMichael's team, I focus on the
candidate care aspect.
We are split into recruitmentpartners and client engagement
managers.
Client engagement managers takecare of our portfolio, whereas
I will be on the other side withthe recruitment partners
sourcing and caring for all ofour amazing candidates.
I suppose what I find reallyexciting about the projects and
(03:38):
change space I'm able to blendtogether my more generalist four
years of APS FedGov recruitmentexperience with something a
little bit more technical, bothkind of creating opportunities
for the right people, bringingforth those high-level
communication and people skills,and identifying those who have
gone forward and upskilledthemselves in the technologies
(03:59):
required.
Some may think that's verytechnical and a little bit
difficult, maybe not worth theirtime, but you'd be surprised
how powerful tools such asMicrosoft Office, really
competent use of Excel and free,simple learning sources can
change someone's whole careertrajectory and pay grade.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I'll have to bear that in mind next time I'm
struggling with an Excelspreadsheet.
So, michael, building digitalcapability across all roles is
not just important for IT, butit's also important for SMEs
right now.
Is that right?
I mean, why is that?
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I think you've got to really define what it is
that digital transformation is,and probably the easiest sort of
answer or definition that youcan give is that it's a
technology solution to abusiness problem.
And you know, regardless ofindustry, regardless of type of
business and the subject matteryou're always going to be faced
with how can we do things better, how can we be more efficient?
(04:57):
What is something that's a painpoint for us at the moment, and
I'd imagine that you know ifyou cast whatever lens onto it,
whether it's public sector orprivate, the key to efficiency
normally lies in some sort oftechnology solution, whether
it's automation, whether it'ssomething that you can utilize
AI and I'm sure we'll speak tothat over the course of the
(05:17):
afternoon but effectively, youknow, the importance of it is is
how can you have people that aunderstand the human requirement
and B understand what ispossible to make that
requirement easier to achieve?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, so what are some of the most effective ways
small businesses can upskilltheir existing teams?
Do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think you've got to look for that sort of condu
around product and capability.
We're always talking about whatit is the amazing spectrum of
things that people can do,especially in an IT or a digital
landscape and one thing wealways talk about is that the IT
project or the IT you knowrequirement of what it is you're
trying to achieve, sits rightat the heartbeat of digital
(06:00):
transformation.
So I guess people that canprovide a conduit between you
know advocating for the businessneeds and understanding how to
implement a technology solution,that's probably your
centrepiece.
So if you were to put that intoyou know, role titles, families
you're probably talking aroundproject and product management,
talking about reallycomprehensive business analysis
(06:21):
and change management as well.
But we find that that sort ofproject family skill set sits
right in the middle and in termsof a starting point to really
improve your digital capability,as it were, having someone who
understands it both from thatbusiness side lens and the
technology side lens is a reallygood place to start.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Have you seen or perhaps Blanca, have you either
of you seen sort of significantstandout examples where
upskilling's made a significantimpact on a business's
performance?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I suppose I have seen that within my own self
recently, over the past sixmonths.
Not necessarily in a businessI'm fairly new to Hayes and I
came from a much smaller entitypreviously but even the own time
I've spent really thoroughlygoing through the free resources
online, having a go with all ofthe beautiful Microsoft Office
(07:15):
products they allow in my freetime.
In the moment it doesn't feelincredibly interesting or maybe
even that beneficial.
But then when you click, openyour email and you're able to do
a really simple thing withthree clicks of a button versus,
I guess, google thingsendlessly to try to figure out
how to delete nine differentemails all at once or at the
(07:38):
same email thread, it isactually really, really helpful.
So not necessarily from abusiness perspective or lens,
but I think that everybody needsto be investing just a little
bit of time during theirweekdays and ensuring they know
how to use the resourcesavailable to us.
I'm sure we'll talk about it ina second, but AI has become my
(07:58):
best friend over the past 12months of my career.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think to add to that, digital literacy in
general is something that youcan be investing in.
You know, we sit here at areally interesting juncture in
time where, at the moment, it'stough to get original thoughts
sometimes because people aregetting so good at prompting how
to provide additional contextto something or how to answer a
series of questions, you know,using an AI prompt.
(08:24):
But you know we sit here now in2025, I'd say, five and a half
years ago, nobody even knew whatMicrosoft Teams was as an
example, and now reallymeaningful engagements and
placements are being made ofpeople with, you know, key
influence and decision makingcapability, but it doesn't
matter where they are anymore.
All of a sudden you canactually log into everything
(08:45):
remotely and I think that that'sbeen a really good, tangible
example of being able to upskillin digital literacy.
And sometimes it's almost likean unofficial test that we have
when we're canvassing the market.
If people can't quite get ontotheir Teams meeting first time,
which is more common than you'dthink sometimes that's a little
bit of a how many times have youactually done this over the
(09:08):
last five years?
I'd anticipate quite a lot andthe seamless experience of that.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I think is really important.
So when you're hiring fornon-tech roles, I guess
particularly, I guess in thatprojects and change space, what
digital competencies are youfinding that employers are
looking for and what should theybe looking for?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
There's probably two ways to answer that One's in the
public sector and one'sprobably outside of the public
sector.
I think from a federallandscape, it's probably
knowledge of how thatenvironment works and how to
apply, I guess, those sorts ofmethodologies to delivering
something inherently technical.
But outside I think it'sessentially just an
understanding of technology morebroadly and the way in which
(09:52):
you store information inparticular.
So records management, I'd say,would be really really
important the ability to usethings like SharePoint, the
ability to share information ina cyber-safe way and you know,
you don't have to go too fardown the rabbit hole of the
internet to see stories that arevery much in that cyber breach
(10:12):
capacity and really sensitiveinformation is getting out to
the market.
So having an awareness of thatis probably a great starting
point.
And then just generally, how totie together probably softer
people skills in a digitallysafe way.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Well, let's talk a little bit more about cyber
security, because that'sobviously a flavour of the month
almost every month when youpick up the newspaper or go
online and see that someone elsehas been hacked, how are you
finding candidates areresponding to that?
Are people concerned?
(10:47):
Do people understand what theyneed to do to help keep their
businesses cyber safe?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I think from a candidate engagement perspective
, certainly because we've gotpeople who are immersed in that
technology space all day, everyday.
So I think that that bit reallydoes resonate home.
It's probably more in theclient space and you know the
general needs out in the marketof people's cyber requirements.
I think that they've beendefined.
(11:13):
You can tell when they've beendefined really, really well and
you can tell when people sort ofhave it as a bit of an
afterthought or it's a oh, I amup to date with current events,
so maybe that's something weshould look at.
There's probably the twodifferent types of levels, but I
think just generally it's suchan interesting landscape and one
(11:33):
thing that we sort of see moreanecdotally is both sides of
what cyber security looks like.
And one thing that's of hugeinterest to our team and we've
got specialists who recruit inthis space is talk about things
like ethical hacking andpenetration testing.
It's a hugely interesting um,and probably something that
people don't realize happens isthat people are actually hired
(11:53):
to try and break down thesecurity system of what it is.
That your business, you knowwhat information you might have,
and I think that's a reallycool thing to understand because
, as the end user.
Often you're just looking forthe simplest way to get whatever
task it is that you're lookingfor done.
You want to complete a web formwith as little clicks as
(12:15):
possible as an example.
I think that everything doeswork together in a project and a
technology software developmentlifecycle, but more and more
than what we've seen before,cyber's being taken into account
at every step of the way.
You don't want to be able tounfortunately or accidentally
click on something and thenexpose a huge risk to the
company.
So, yeah, it's definitely aday-to-day conversation as
(12:36):
opposed to something that sitsto the side now.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah and Blanca, when you're talking to candidates,
are they fully engaged andimmersed in this issue?
Is it something they raise withyou?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
truthfully, greg, no it doesn't come up, should they
be I think that people are veryvigilant about where their
information is going and who hasit accessible, which is
excellent.
The benefit that we have athayes is all of our terms of
engagement, and canadaapplication forms really do
(13:11):
thoroughly state the protocolsthat we have in place as a
larger entity.
So I certainly think, especiallywith the nature of the
high-level secured individuals,cleared individuals that we deal
with, there would be muchfurther questioning or a lack of
engagement.
Should we not really wear ourprotocol like a badge of honor?
(13:32):
But we certainly put in thetime, effort and awareness
training within all our internalstaff to really project that
image of safe cybersecurityoutwards into the community.
I feel pretty lucky in thatregard.
Yet there are certainly stilltimes where we do need to
reassure individuals, especiallyif they are not wanting their
(13:54):
current employer to truly findout a single thing, that that
will not happen.
We aren't going to go and playthe game in Canberra where we
tap our mate from cricket on theshoulder or from bowls, but
outside of that again, we havesuch a strong branding.
We're very lucky and it's veryclearly written across most of
our documentation that it's allclassified information until
(14:18):
they're made known otherwise,yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I guess, as you talk there, I'm sort of reflecting on
the similarities perhapsbetween the recruitment market
and the intelligence community,because ultimately, I guess you
know you're all about findinginformation and there's a
significant degree ofconfidentiality and sensitivity
around the work that you guys do, right.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It does feel like that sometimes there's, you know
, the old Sherlock Holmesafternoons where you actually
know that there is somethingthat's really important to
understand about a requirementor a candidate and you possibly
have to go to a few differentlengths to try and find that
information.
And the power of the informalreference in a town like
Canberra, I think, can't beunderstated.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So from a small business point of view, like I
mean, are you are most of yourclients?
Obviously you've got some bigfederal government clients, but
in the private sector, are youmainly dealing with smaller
businesses or larger ones?
It's?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
a pretty good mix, to be honest.
And you know, we probably seeit more in some of our
professional HR, finance typemarkets where we have that
smaller business engagementSometimes, you know, I think the
ability to attract candidatesto a really key position is
possible, that the job boardsthat exist in this marketplace
(15:36):
do make it possible to attractcandidates.
But I think being able to youknow if I can link it back to
technology it's all aboutbusiness understanding, right?
I think if you can have aspecialist stakeholder, ie a
recruitment agency, involved toreally, truly listen, to
understand your requirements notjust listen to provide you
solutions, but really understandwhat your pain point is you can
(15:57):
run a really dedicated campaign.
And when you're delivering insmall business, recruiting
additional headcount is not ahuge part of your day-to-day
operation, but from our sideit's 100% of what we do.
So I think the ability toreally critically understand
what it is that people arelooking for and then supply a
tailored solution to that isabsolutely key to what we do.
(16:20):
But, to answer your originalquestion, a really good mix.
I think.
You know Canberra is boundtogether by its major industries
, right?
You've got your white collar,you've got your public sector
federal government.
You've got your constructionand property is absolutely
massive here probably got theCanberra airport group which
sits to the side is almost likethe defense equivalent of the
Canberra market and you know,within there you've got a lot of
(16:43):
really good, you know industryspecific, small businesses and I
think our offering, the beautyof it, is that you know it's
relevant to anyone in thatcategory you know it's relevant
to anyone in that category.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So you talk about the need to understand a client's
requirements, which obviously isimportant for any business.
But do you often do you everfind yourself thinking, oh well,
actually we could put a personinto this role because they
think they've got a vacancy here, but there might be some tech
solutions that might be abenefit?
Do you?
Do you kind of have thoseconversations with some of your
(17:17):
clients sometimes?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
yeah, we do, and sometimes that's part of the art
form, right?
I think if, if something'salways been done a certain way,
then you know, it might be umnature for that client to say we
need to replace a really likefor like of someone that we've
lost.
I think that's probably themost common type of recruitment,
right?
Is we used to have thiscapability and now we don't,
because that specified personnelis left, so we need to replace
(17:41):
them exactly like that.
I think, when things come toproblem solving and
technological advancement, howit worked when that person,
original person was hired versushow it works now could be two
different things.
So from our perspective, wemight get asked to recruit a
project manager and what theyactually need is someone to
actually just understand thebusiness and technology nuance
(18:03):
of what they're trying to do.
So maybe they'll need abusiness analyst instead, or
perhaps they think that theyneed a change manager, but what
they actually need is someone towrite a schedule for them and
keep people on track.
So I think it's the open-endedquestions that we ask.
I think what we want to reallysteer away from is what I'll
describe as highly transactionalrecruitment, where you just
(18:24):
listen to what you're told andthen try and matchmake and and
pattern, recognize and providesomething to that.
I think you can actually thinka little bit more critically and
look beyond the positiondescription, so to speak, and
sometimes the solution that youmight come to is something that
you didn't necessarily think atthe start.
And having watch Blanca inaction, that's something that
she's very good at.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And what I will add on to that as well is that is
truly my favourite part of thejob you can be talking to a
client, engaging actively.
Reading the positiondescription, I will always beg
the question of is thereanything on here that is not as
important as it's highlighted informal writing?
(19:06):
And you need to tell me rightnow all the other things that
you can't write down that areextremely important to you and
your team.
Tell me about the people thatyou already have in there.
How many of you are there?
What's the dynamic like?
What kind of things do you guysenjoy to do together?
As little as it sounds, that isgoing to be a huge component of
(19:30):
not only the initial success atinterview after the resume is
read, but it's really going tobe make or break in the person's
integration and longevity inthe team.
Whether it be a contract orpermanent engagement, you need
the right person, not just theright resume.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So I mean that's a really interesting point.
There's often a whole lot ofsecrets the wrong word but
unwritten stuff that goesalongside a position description
.
How forthcoming do you findclients are when you ask them
that question?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I find them to be very transparent, very
forthcoming, almost excitable inmoments at the fact somebody
has asked the question.
I'll do it a little bit morecarefully, depending on how I've
read the room.
What type of person is thisthat I'm speaking with?
Is this a project managementofficer for a highly technical
(20:23):
space?
That will depict the type ofperson who leads those people?
Or is it a high-level programmanager, coming from a business
acumen background themselves,who's brought some other people
across, might be more fluidcommunication and like to have a
bit more of a laugh.
There's a right and a wrong wayto say everything in this world
(20:44):
, but that's another nuance thatI enjoy about the job.
You figure out what feels rightand you can kind of gauge what
people are going to tell youright off the bat.
Wouldn't you say so, michael?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, I think it underlines the human centricity
to this market because I thinkanybody could just read it as it
was demonstrated on a page andthen try and make their own
assumptions and find people thatjust match what's written there
.
But to your point earlier, greg, if you don't ask the question
of the client, you can't askthat exact same question of the
(21:17):
candidates, and you know there'sprobably going to be one pain
point.
That's never advertised becausesometimes you don't want to put
that forward.
But you know part of our roleis to really nail down what it
is.
You know what is that painpoint and you know you can
hypothetically ask a prospectivecandidate how would you solve
this If they give a reallydetailed answer?
(21:39):
And often that sort of answeris something that where you can
understand, they can make youunderstand something inherently
technical in a really simple way.
Often, if that can sort ofhappen, you normally feel pretty
good, like you're on to a bitof a winner.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Now we've talked a little bit about the human
centricity of the recruitmentmarket, but it wouldn't be a
conversation about the workforcein 2025 if I were to ask you
about AI and automation.
What role do you think thosetools are going to play in
shaping the workforce of thefuture, especially in that small
business market?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Well, as we've talked about a couple of times, I
think the key to driving forwardanything from a business
perspective is having reallyclear requirements, so
requirements gathering in whereyou're at and also what you want
to achieve.
I think until the prompting ofartificial intelligence is
(22:32):
absolutely black and white andspot on every time, I think in
this particular industry it'sgoing to play a role, but it's
never going to take over.
I get asked quite regularly youknow, how do you have a team of
11 recruiters and why wouldn'tyou just use Copilot and chat,
gbt and the best two?
Good question.
But again, what we sort oftalked about earlier is that the
(22:55):
way information is fed out intowhat a business requirement is
is not the most accurate pictureof that.
So if you're trying to, youknow, prompt a platform to give
you the solution for somethingthat hasn't been well identified
well, you're probably not goingto get the best result either.
So I think that's the art formthere.
It's heavily used from our team, from an administrative
(23:18):
assistant perspective.
It does cut down a lot of timeon tasks that have taken a
really long time in the past.
But the other thing is Blancamade a really good point on the
way here.
This is virtually free platformIf people don't have to pay
anything to get there.
We've got absolutely no way ofknowing what this information is
being used for, where it'sbeing shared and what the
(23:40):
long-term impacts of that is,and we're not going to know what
impact that is being had rightnow and when it comes to AI,
until years from now, and so Ithink it's it's something that
you can use to your benefit, butit needs to be used like that.
It almost needs the hierarchyto be in place that it's your
assistant, not the other wayaround.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, absolutely, or we get down to fairly dark
territory, I guess, particularlyfor fans of science fiction
movies.
Do you think SMEs are adoptingAI tools?
You know, as far as you'retalking to them at a high rate.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Oh, look, anecdotally , it's different everywhere you
go.
I think that it is certainlysaving time on things that maybe
weren't a glamorous part ofperforming a business function.
In terms of the actual adoptionfor core business delivery not
in every sector, I wouldn't havethought, certainly not at this
(24:43):
point.
I think it's good from agovernance or a framework to how
you deliver things, so whatyour structures look like.
I think you can really use itto a high effect in there.
But in terms of actually whatyou're putting out to the market
, you know the social mediacomponent.
I you know.
I probably noticed you cannotice who uses AI on LinkedIn
(25:06):
in particular, because the sameset of graphics appear on every
post for one.
It's bold and in the samegeneral spot of the post.
So I think that it has itsplace, but I think it's also
still at the phase where it'sobvious what it is being used
for and what it's not, and Ithink the most cut through that
I continue to see are those onesthat, for want of a better
(25:28):
expression, come from the heart.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And it'll be interesting to see how that
evolves over time, I guess.
What's your prediction for 2030?
How far do you think AI isgoing to have penetrated into
the business environment?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Quite deeply.
You know, I think one of themain sort of rules or theories
about technology, and especiallyin the artificial intelligence
space, is that it can.
You know it used to be thattechnology could double in its
capability every 18 months, butfrom an artificial intelligence
perspective, it doubles in itscapability every 30 days.
So I think that the next wavethat we're going to see of AI is
(26:10):
going to be the regulation ofit, and again, we're not going
to go down into the conspiracytheory path on this podcast,
greg, but you know how that'sregulated from government
entities is going to be thereally fascinating watch for the
next little while, because youknow what we don't know is you
know where people aregeographically tagged, what
biases it's building up in termsof the information that's being
(26:34):
fed in there, and I think somepeople just go all out and and
use it for absolutely everything.
I know my wife uses it as google.
Now it's like I'll just askchat gbt.
I think that language haschanged from I'll google it to
I'll just ask chat gbt now.
So it's building up all thisinformation on people and we've
already seen the power of socialmedia and what it can have by
pushing a certain agenda umthrough, and obviously there's
(26:56):
been, you know, news of ofwhat's happened in the states
over the last um couple of days.
I think that that's a a reallypoignant time to think about
what impact all of this ishappening.
But in terms of what aprediction is, I think that
there'll be, uh, an eternalstruggle for the regulation of
these platforms, because at themoment it's highly accessible
and there's probably not a heapof rules attached.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, and it's probably fair to say that
governments have been trying toregulate technology for close to
1,000 years and have not got itright, probably in many cases,
so I guess we'll have to seewhat happens.
Blanca, you're relatively newto Hayes.
If your team at Hayes had amascot, what do you think it
would be?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, fabulous.
Honestly, I've been thinkingabout it, greg, since we got
here today.
I'd have to say a pangolin,pangolin, a pangolin, yes I
can't wait to hear this.
Not to be mistaken with apenguin.
Yeah, so perhaps for those ofour audience who don't know a
pangolin would.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
For those of our audience who don't know a
pangolin, would you like to justtell us what it is?
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yes, certainly my awareness of what a pangolin is
is a small, strange, very unique, endangered little animal that
runs across the ground, found invery few countries, which I
won't dare to try to rattle off.
It's got spines and also afunny little snout.
(28:16):
It's very good at diggingaround in the dirt and very
endangered species.
Anyhow, the reason I think thatwould be our mascot is because
the first time one of my friendstold me about the existence of
a pangolin, I was probably in mymid-20s and I didn't believe it
was a real thing.
What I've found in my own teamat Hayes every single one of us
(28:37):
is incredibly unique, skilled ina very different fashion, and
to find us all together doingour best work as a collective is
probably an anomaly of somekind.
To be exaggerative about it, Ifeel very lucky to sit around
the people I do each day, but atthis exact same time.
(28:58):
It's a very interestingcollection of individuals that
you'd be hard-pressed to just goand find in the wild.
Again, you could visit mostcountries.
Pangolins are around and aboutand never see one.
I watched a documentary, whichis why it's terrible.
I don't know a little bit more.
(29:19):
A few months ago, with mypartner and some people that
live in the native lands of thepangolin have never seen one in
their entire lives.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Excellent Michael without wanting to get into your
internal team dynamics.
Do you have a view on that?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I've got to be careful of what I say here.
Uh, I I wrote, uh, when yousort of gave me the heads up on
this question 20 minutes ago, Iwrote what's the most
transparent and caring animalthat I can think of.
So, um, I think we'd probablybe almost the golden retriever,
I'd say would be our mascot interms of being really pure to
(29:55):
itself and unapologeticallyempathetic and caring and
transparent about how it'sfeeling.
And I think, if I try and loopthis together as nicely and
neatly as I can, that's how wetry and perform in the
marketplaces, in a way that isunconditionally caring about
(30:16):
both the needs of our candidatesand clients, but also really
transparent about what weunderstand and what we need from
those people as well.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me here on the podcast.
I'm Greg Harford from theCanberra Business Chamber.
I've been joined today byMichael Minns and Blanca
Barreras from Hayes Recruitment.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes.
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast,
our podcasting to you for thefirst time from our new podcast
studio in Hobart Place.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm joined byMichael Minns, the National
Delivery Manager for HayesRecruitment, and Blanca Barreras
, a recruitment partner forHayes in relation to projects
and change.
So, michael and Blanca, welcometo the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thanks, greg, very fancy new digs.
Very much honoured to be thefirst to be contributing to a
podcast in this room.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, it's great to have you here, so tell us, for
our listeners, what is Hayes?
I mean, it's a brand namethat's been around for a long
time, it's big, will be known topeople, but what is it that you
do?
What are the services that youoffer?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, so obviously Hayes is a really large
multinational recruitmentcompany here in Canberra.
We're probably very synonymouswith delivery into federal
government in particular, asmost of the industry does here
in the nation's capital.
But we're specialist recruitersso we recruit across the whole
gamut of white-collar,blue-collar professional spaces.
(01:15):
So Blanca and I are both fromour technology delivery here in
Canberra, but we've got officesall over the country in every
state here Canberra, but we'vegot offices all over the country
in every state here.
We also recruit intoprofessional services, hr,
procurement, finance, as well asconstruction and property
policy and strategy as well.
So a very broad offering.
But we're quite a large,well-resourced recruitment
(01:37):
agency so we've probably got theprivilege of being able to be
quite specialised in our ownindividual markets.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, and how many people?
Just to give us an idea ofscale.
How many people are you placingin Canberra every year?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Plenty is the answer.
We're probably looking at, youknow, a weekly sort of payment
of close to 800 temp workersevery week across largely
federal government, as I said,but also into the private sector
and small businesses, and wealso are placing people
permanently with high regularityas well.
(02:12):
That those processes do take alittle bit longer, so not as
easy to measure each week, butit probably makes up a good 35
to 40 percent of our business aswell, that's a that's a good
size kind of placement right now.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I I mean it's the size of a small town in some
cases, so it's not to be sneezedat.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It definitely feels that way.
In Canberra it's very much thehappening place for anything to
do in the public sector, but itdoes feel like a very small town
a lot of the time.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, and your role, Michael.
What's your focus?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, so I lead up our technology team here in
Canberra.
Specifically, my role isNational Delivery Manager for
Federal Government Technology,so that's our primary customer
base.
We've also got a technologyteam based in all of our major
cities, so Sydney, melbourne,brisbane, adelaide, perth, to
name sort of the main ones.
(03:01):
But you know, I lead up thetechnology side of our delivery
and also sit on the ACTmanagement team, and that's
across the whole spectrum ofprofessional type roles that we
discussed earlier.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Fantastic.
So, Blanca, how do you fit intothe picture?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, fantastic.
So as a recruitment partner inMichael's team, I focus on the
candidate care aspect.
We are split into recruitmentpartners and client engagement
managers.
Client engagement managers takecare of our portfolio, whereas
I will be on the other side withthe recruitment partners
sourcing and caring for all ofour amazing candidates.
I suppose what I find reallyexciting about the projects and
(03:38):
change space I'm able to blendtogether my more generalist four
years of APS FedGov recruitmentexperience with something a
little bit more technical, bothkind of creating opportunities
for the right people, bringingforth those high-level
communication and people skills,and identifying those who have
gone forward and upskilledthemselves in the technologies
(03:59):
required.
Some may think that's verytechnical and a little bit
difficult, maybe not worth theirtime, but you'd be surprised
how powerful tools such asMicrosoft Office, really
competent use of Excel and free,simple learning sources can
change someone's whole careertrajectory and pay grade.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I'll have to bear that in mind next time I'm
struggling with an Excelspreadsheet.
So, michael, building digitalcapability across all roles is
not just important for IT, butit's also important for SMEs
right now.
Is that right?
I mean, why is that?
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I think you've got to really define what it is
that digital transformation is,and probably the easiest sort of
answer or definition that youcan give is that it's a
technology solution to abusiness problem.
And you know, regardless ofindustry, regardless of type of
business and the subject matteryou're always going to be faced
with how can we do things better, how can we be more efficient?
(04:57):
What is something that's a painpoint for us at the moment, and
I'd imagine that you know ifyou cast whatever lens onto it,
whether it's public sector orprivate, the key to efficiency
normally lies in some sort oftechnology solution, whether
it's automation, whether it'ssomething that you can utilize
AI and I'm sure we'll speak tothat over the course of the
(05:17):
afternoon but effectively, youknow, the importance of it is is
how can you have people that aunderstand the human requirement
and B understand what ispossible to make that
requirement easier to achieve?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, so what are some of the most effective ways
small businesses can upskilltheir existing teams?
Do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think you've got to look for that sort of condu
around product and capability.
We're always talking about whatit is the amazing spectrum of
things that people can do,especially in an IT or a digital
landscape and one thing wealways talk about is that the IT
project or the IT you knowrequirement of what it is you're
trying to achieve, sits rightat the heartbeat of digital
(06:00):
transformation.
So I guess people that canprovide a conduit between you
know advocating for the businessneeds and understanding how to
implement a technology solution,that's probably your
centrepiece.
So if you were to put that intoyou know, role titles, families
you're probably talking aroundproject and product management,
talking about reallycomprehensive business analysis
(06:21):
and change management as well.
But we find that that sort ofproject family skill set sits
right in the middle and in termsof a starting point to really
improve your digital capability,as it were, having someone who
understands it both from thatbusiness side lens and the
technology side lens is a reallygood place to start.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Have you seen or perhaps Blanca, have you either
of you seen sort of significantstandout examples where
upskilling's made a significantimpact on a business's
performance?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I suppose I have seen that within my own self
recently, over the past sixmonths.
Not necessarily in a businessI'm fairly new to Hayes and I
came from a much smaller entitypreviously but even the own time
I've spent really thoroughlygoing through the free resources
online, having a go with all ofthe beautiful Microsoft Office
(07:15):
products they allow in my freetime.
In the moment it doesn't feelincredibly interesting or maybe
even that beneficial.
But then when you click, openyour email and you're able to do
a really simple thing withthree clicks of a button versus,
I guess, google thingsendlessly to try to figure out
how to delete nine differentemails all at once or at the
(07:38):
same email thread, it isactually really, really helpful.
So not necessarily from abusiness perspective or lens,
but I think that everybody needsto be investing just a little
bit of time during theirweekdays and ensuring they know
how to use the resourcesavailable to us.
I'm sure we'll talk about it ina second, but AI has become my
(07:58):
best friend over the past 12months of my career.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think to add to that, digital literacy in
general is something that youcan be investing in.
You know, we sit here at areally interesting juncture in
time where, at the moment, it'stough to get original thoughts
sometimes because people aregetting so good at prompting how
to provide additional contextto something or how to answer a
series of questions, you know,using an AI prompt.
(08:24):
But you know we sit here now in2025, I'd say, five and a half
years ago, nobody even knew whatMicrosoft Teams was as an
example, and now reallymeaningful engagements and
placements are being made ofpeople with, you know, key
influence and decision makingcapability, but it doesn't
matter where they are anymore.
All of a sudden you canactually log into everything
(08:45):
remotely and I think that that'sbeen a really good, tangible
example of being able to upskillin digital literacy.
And sometimes it's almost likean unofficial test that we have
when we're canvassing the market.
If people can't quite get ontotheir Teams meeting first time,
which is more common than you'dthink sometimes that's a little
bit of a how many times have youactually done this over the
(09:08):
last five years?
I'd anticipate quite a lot andthe seamless experience of that.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I think is really important.
So when you're hiring fornon-tech roles, I guess
particularly, I guess in thatprojects and change space, what
digital competencies are youfinding that employers are
looking for and what should theybe looking for?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
There's probably two ways to answer that One's in the
public sector and one'sprobably outside of the public
sector.
I think from a federallandscape, it's probably
knowledge of how thatenvironment works and how to
apply, I guess, those sorts ofmethodologies to delivering
something inherently technical.
But outside I think it'sessentially just an
understanding of technology morebroadly and the way in which
(09:52):
you store information inparticular.
So records management, I'd say,would be really really
important the ability to usethings like SharePoint, the
ability to share information ina cyber-safe way and you know,
you don't have to go too fardown the rabbit hole of the
internet to see stories that arevery much in that cyber breach
(10:12):
capacity and really sensitiveinformation is getting out to
the market.
So having an awareness of thatis probably a great starting
point.
And then just generally, how totie together probably softer
people skills in a digitallysafe way.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Well, let's talk a little bit more about cyber
security, because that'sobviously a flavour of the month
almost every month when youpick up the newspaper or go
online and see that someone elsehas been hacked, how are you
finding candidates areresponding to that?
Are people concerned?
(10:47):
Do people understand what theyneed to do to help keep their
businesses cyber safe?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I think from a candidate engagement perspective
, certainly because we've gotpeople who are immersed in that
technology space all day, everyday.
So I think that that bit reallydoes resonate home.
It's probably more in theclient space and you know the
general needs out in the marketof people's cyber requirements.
I think that they've beendefined.
(11:13):
You can tell when they've beendefined really, really well and
you can tell when people sort ofhave it as a bit of an
afterthought or it's a oh, I amup to date with current events,
so maybe that's something weshould look at.
There's probably the twodifferent types of levels, but I
think just generally it's suchan interesting landscape and one
(11:33):
thing that we sort of see moreanecdotally is both sides of
what cyber security looks like.
And one thing that's of hugeinterest to our team and we've
got specialists who recruit inthis space is talk about things
like ethical hacking andpenetration testing.
It's a hugely interesting um,and probably something that
people don't realize happens isthat people are actually hired
(11:53):
to try and break down thesecurity system of what it is.
That your business, you knowwhat information you might have,
and I think that's a reallycool thing to understand because
, as the end user.
Often you're just looking forthe simplest way to get whatever
task it is that you're lookingfor done.
You want to complete a web formwith as little clicks as
(12:15):
possible as an example.
I think that everything doeswork together in a project and a
technology software developmentlifecycle, but more and more
than what we've seen before,cyber's being taken into account
at every step of the way.
You don't want to be able tounfortunately or accidentally
click on something and thenexpose a huge risk to the
company.
So, yeah, it's definitely aday-to-day conversation as
(12:36):
opposed to something that sitsto the side now.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah and Blanca, when you're talking to candidates,
are they fully engaged andimmersed in this issue?
Is it something they raise withyou?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
truthfully, greg, no it doesn't come up, should they
be I think that people are veryvigilant about where their
information is going and who hasit accessible, which is
excellent.
The benefit that we have athayes is all of our terms of
engagement, and canadaapplication forms really do
(13:11):
thoroughly state the protocolsthat we have in place as a
larger entity.
So I certainly think, especiallywith the nature of the
high-level secured individuals,cleared individuals that we deal
with, there would be muchfurther questioning or a lack of
engagement.
Should we not really wear ourprotocol like a badge of honor?
(13:32):
But we certainly put in thetime, effort and awareness
training within all our internalstaff to really project that
image of safe cybersecurityoutwards into the community.
I feel pretty lucky in thatregard.
Yet there are certainly stilltimes where we do need to
reassure individuals, especiallyif they are not wanting their
(13:54):
current employer to truly findout a single thing, that that
will not happen.
We aren't going to go and playthe game in Canberra where we
tap our mate from cricket on theshoulder or from bowls, but
outside of that again, we havesuch a strong branding.
We're very lucky and it's veryclearly written across most of
our documentation that it's allclassified information until
(14:18):
they're made known otherwise,yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I guess, as you talk there, I'm sort of reflecting on
the similarities perhapsbetween the recruitment market
and the intelligence community,because ultimately, I guess you
know you're all about findinginformation and there's a
significant degree ofconfidentiality and sensitivity
around the work that you guys do, right.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It does feel like that sometimes there's, you know
, the old Sherlock Holmesafternoons where you actually
know that there is somethingthat's really important to
understand about a requirementor a candidate and you possibly
have to go to a few differentlengths to try and find that
information.
And the power of the informalreference in a town like
Canberra, I think, can't beunderstated.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So from a small business point of view, like I
mean, are you are most of yourclients?
Obviously you've got some bigfederal government clients, but
in the private sector, are youmainly dealing with smaller
businesses or larger ones?
It's?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
a pretty good mix, to be honest.
And you know, we probably seeit more in some of our
professional HR, finance typemarkets where we have that
smaller business engagementSometimes, you know, I think the
ability to attract candidatesto a really key position is
possible, that the job boardsthat exist in this marketplace
(15:36):
do make it possible to attractcandidates.
But I think being able to youknow if I can link it back to
technology it's all aboutbusiness understanding, right?
I think if you can have aspecialist stakeholder, ie a
recruitment agency, involved toreally, truly listen, to
understand your requirements notjust listen to provide you
solutions, but really understandwhat your pain point is you can
(15:57):
run a really dedicated campaign.
And when you're delivering insmall business, recruiting
additional headcount is not ahuge part of your day-to-day
operation, but from our sideit's 100% of what we do.
So I think the ability toreally critically understand
what it is that people arelooking for and then supply a
tailored solution to that isabsolutely key to what we do.
(16:20):
But, to answer your originalquestion, a really good mix.
I think.
You know Canberra is boundtogether by its major industries
, right?
You've got your white collar,you've got your public sector
federal government.
You've got your constructionand property is absolutely
massive here probably got theCanberra airport group which
sits to the side is almost likethe defense equivalent of the
Canberra market and you know,within there you've got a lot of
(16:43):
really good, you know industryspecific, small businesses and I
think our offering, the beautyof it, is that you know it's
relevant to anyone in thatcategory you know it's relevant
to anyone in that category.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So you talk about the need to understand a client's
requirements, which obviously isimportant for any business.
But do you often do you everfind yourself thinking, oh well,
actually we could put a personinto this role because they
think they've got a vacancy here, but there might be some tech
solutions that might be abenefit?
Do you?
Do you kind of have thoseconversations with some of your
(17:17):
clients sometimes?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
yeah, we do, and sometimes that's part of the art
form, right?
I think if, if something'salways been done a certain way,
then you know, it might be umnature for that client to say we
need to replace a really likefor like of someone that we've
lost.
I think that's probably themost common type of recruitment,
right?
Is we used to have thiscapability and now we don't,
because that specified personnelis left, so we need to replace
(17:41):
them exactly like that.
I think, when things come toproblem solving and
technological advancement, howit worked when that person,
original person was hired versushow it works now could be two
different things.
So from our perspective, wemight get asked to recruit a
project manager and what theyactually need is someone to
actually just understand thebusiness and technology nuance
(18:03):
of what they're trying to do.
So maybe they'll need abusiness analyst instead, or
perhaps they think that theyneed a change manager, but what
they actually need is someone towrite a schedule for them and
keep people on track.
So I think it's the open-endedquestions that we ask.
I think what we want to reallysteer away from is what I'll
describe as highly transactionalrecruitment, where you just
(18:24):
listen to what you're told andthen try and matchmake and and
pattern, recognize and providesomething to that.
I think you can actually thinka little bit more critically and
look beyond the positiondescription, so to speak, and
sometimes the solution that youmight come to is something that
you didn't necessarily think atthe start.
And having watch Blanca inaction, that's something that
she's very good at.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And what I will add on to that as well is that is
truly my favourite part of thejob you can be talking to a
client, engaging actively.
Reading the positiondescription, I will always beg
the question of is thereanything on here that is not as
important as it's highlighted informal writing?
(19:06):
And you need to tell me rightnow all the other things that
you can't write down that areextremely important to you and
your team.
Tell me about the people thatyou already have in there.
How many of you are there?
What's the dynamic like?
What kind of things do you guysenjoy to do together?
As little as it sounds, that isgoing to be a huge component of
(19:30):
not only the initial success atinterview after the resume is
read, but it's really going tobe make or break in the person's
integration and longevity inthe team.
Whether it be a contract orpermanent engagement, you need
the right person, not just theright resume.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So I mean that's a really interesting point.
There's often a whole lot ofsecrets the wrong word but
unwritten stuff that goesalongside a position description
.
How forthcoming do you findclients are when you ask them
that question?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I find them to be very transparent, very
forthcoming, almost excitable inmoments at the fact somebody
has asked the question.
I'll do it a little bit morecarefully, depending on how I've
read the room.
What type of person is thisthat I'm speaking with?
Is this a project managementofficer for a highly technical
(20:23):
space?
That will depict the type ofperson who leads those people?
Or is it a high-level programmanager, coming from a business
acumen background themselves,who's brought some other people
across, might be more fluidcommunication and like to have a
bit more of a laugh.
There's a right and a wrong wayto say everything in this world
(20:44):
, but that's another nuance thatI enjoy about the job.
You figure out what feels rightand you can kind of gauge what
people are going to tell youright off the bat.
Wouldn't you say so, michael?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, I think it underlines the human centricity
to this market because I thinkanybody could just read it as it
was demonstrated on a page andthen try and make their own
assumptions and find people thatjust match what's written there
.
But to your point earlier, greg, if you don't ask the question
of the client, you can't askthat exact same question of the
(21:17):
candidates, and you know there'sprobably going to be one pain
point.
That's never advertised becausesometimes you don't want to put
that forward.
But you know part of our roleis to really nail down what it
is.
You know what is that painpoint and you know you can
hypothetically ask a prospectivecandidate how would you solve
this If they give a reallydetailed answer?
(21:39):
And often that sort of answeris something that where you can
understand, they can make youunderstand something inherently
technical in a really simple way.
Often, if that can sort ofhappen, you normally feel pretty
good, like you're on to a bitof a winner.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Now we've talked a little bit about the human
centricity of the recruitmentmarket, but it wouldn't be a
conversation about the workforcein 2025 if I were to ask you
about AI and automation.
What role do you think thosetools are going to play in
shaping the workforce of thefuture, especially in that small
business market?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Well, as we've talked about a couple of times, I
think the key to driving forwardanything from a business
perspective is having reallyclear requirements, so
requirements gathering in whereyou're at and also what you want
to achieve.
I think until the prompting ofartificial intelligence is
(22:32):
absolutely black and white andspot on every time, I think in
this particular industry it'sgoing to play a role, but it's
never going to take over.
I get asked quite regularly youknow, how do you have a team of
11 recruiters and why wouldn'tyou just use Copilot and chat,
gbt and the best two?
Good question.
But again, what we sort oftalked about earlier is that the
(22:55):
way information is fed out intowhat a business requirement is
is not the most accurate pictureof that.
So if you're trying to, youknow, prompt a platform to give
you the solution for somethingthat hasn't been well identified
well, you're probably not goingto get the best result either.
So I think that's the art formthere.
It's heavily used from our team, from an administrative
(23:18):
assistant perspective.
It does cut down a lot of timeon tasks that have taken a
really long time in the past.
But the other thing is Blancamade a really good point on the
way here.
This is virtually free platformIf people don't have to pay
anything to get there.
We've got absolutely no way ofknowing what this information is
being used for, where it'sbeing shared and what the
(23:40):
long-term impacts of that is,and we're not going to know what
impact that is being had rightnow and when it comes to AI,
until years from now, and so Ithink it's it's something that
you can use to your benefit, butit needs to be used like that.
It almost needs the hierarchyto be in place that it's your
assistant, not the other wayaround.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, absolutely, or we get down to fairly dark
territory, I guess, particularlyfor fans of science fiction
movies.
Do you think SMEs are adoptingAI tools?
You know, as far as you'retalking to them at a high rate.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Oh, look, anecdotally , it's different everywhere you
go.
I think that it is certainlysaving time on things that maybe
weren't a glamorous part ofperforming a business function.
In terms of the actual adoptionfor core business delivery not
in every sector, I wouldn't havethought, certainly not at this
(24:43):
point.
I think it's good from agovernance or a framework to how
you deliver things, so whatyour structures look like.
I think you can really use itto a high effect in there.
But in terms of actually whatyou're putting out to the market
, you know the social mediacomponent.
I you know.
I probably noticed you cannotice who uses AI on LinkedIn
(25:06):
in particular, because the sameset of graphics appear on every
post for one.
It's bold and in the samegeneral spot of the post.
So I think that it has itsplace, but I think it's also
still at the phase where it'sobvious what it is being used
for and what it's not, and Ithink the most cut through that
I continue to see are those onesthat, for want of a better
(25:28):
expression, come from the heart.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And it'll be interesting to see how that
evolves over time, I guess.
What's your prediction for 2030?
How far do you think AI isgoing to have penetrated into
the business environment?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Quite deeply.
You know, I think one of themain sort of rules or theories
about technology, and especiallyin the artificial intelligence
space, is that it can.
You know it used to be thattechnology could double in its
capability every 18 months, butfrom an artificial intelligence
perspective, it doubles in itscapability every 30 days.
So I think that the next wavethat we're going to see of AI is
(26:10):
going to be the regulation ofit, and again, we're not going
to go down into the conspiracytheory path on this podcast,
greg, but you know how that'sregulated from government
entities is going to be thereally fascinating watch for the
next little while, because youknow what we don't know is you
know where people aregeographically tagged, what
biases it's building up in termsof the information that's being
(26:34):
fed in there, and I think somepeople just go all out and and
use it for absolutely everything.
I know my wife uses it as google.
Now it's like I'll just askchat gbt.
I think that language haschanged from I'll google it to
I'll just ask chat gbt now.
So it's building up all thisinformation on people and we've
already seen the power of socialmedia and what it can have by
pushing a certain agenda umthrough, and obviously there's
(26:56):
been, you know, news of ofwhat's happened in the states
over the last um couple of days.
I think that that's a a reallypoignant time to think about
what impact all of this ishappening.
But in terms of what aprediction is, I think that
there'll be, uh, an eternalstruggle for the regulation of
these platforms, because at themoment it's highly accessible
and there's probably not a heapof rules attached.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, and it's probably fair to say that
governments have been trying toregulate technology for close to
1,000 years and have not got itright, probably in many cases,
so I guess we'll have to seewhat happens.
Blanca, you're relatively newto Hayes.
If your team at Hayes had amascot, what do you think it
would be?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, fabulous.
Honestly, I've been thinkingabout it, greg, since we got
here today.
I'd have to say a pangolin,pangolin, a pangolin, yes I
can't wait to hear this.
Not to be mistaken with apenguin.
Yeah, so perhaps for those ofour audience who don't know a
pangolin would.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
For those of our audience who don't know a
pangolin, would you like to justtell us what it is?
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yes, certainly my awareness of what a pangolin is
is a small, strange, very unique, endangered little animal that
runs across the ground, found invery few countries, which I
won't dare to try to rattle off.
It's got spines and also afunny little snout.
(28:16):
It's very good at diggingaround in the dirt and very
endangered species.
Anyhow, the reason I think thatwould be our mascot is because
the first time one of my friendstold me about the existence of
a pangolin, I was probably in mymid-20s and I didn't believe it
was a real thing.
What I've found in my own teamat Hayes every single one of us
(28:37):
is incredibly unique, skilled ina very different fashion, and
to find us all together doingour best work as a collective is
probably an anomaly of somekind.
To be exaggerative about it, Ifeel very lucky to sit around
the people I do each day, but atthis exact same time.
(28:58):
It's a very interestingcollection of individuals that
you'd be hard-pressed to just goand find in the wild.
Again, you could visit mostcountries.
Pangolins are around and aboutand never see one.
I watched a documentary, whichis why it's terrible.
I don't know a little bit more.
(29:19):
A few months ago, with mypartner and some people that
live in the native lands of thepangolin have never seen one in
their entire lives.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Excellent Michael without wanting to get into your
internal team dynamics.
Do you have a view on that?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I've got to be careful of what I say here.
Uh, I I wrote, uh, when yousort of gave me the heads up on
this question 20 minutes ago, Iwrote what's the most
transparent and caring animalthat I can think of.
So, um, I think we'd probablybe almost the golden retriever,
I'd say would be our mascot interms of being really pure to
(29:55):
itself and unapologeticallyempathetic and caring and
transparent about how it'sfeeling.
And I think, if I try and loopthis together as nicely and
neatly as I can, that's how wetry and perform in the
marketplaces, in a way that isunconditionally caring about
(30:16):
both the needs of our candidatesand clients, but also really
transparent about what weunderstand and what we need from
those people as well.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me here on the podcast.
I'm Greg Harford from theCanberra Business Chamber.
I've been joined today byMichael Minns and Blanca
Barreras from Hayes Recruitment.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes.
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