June 18, 2025 • 26 mins
What does it take to build a thriving healthcare business in an underserved market? Dr. John Deery, CEO of YourGP and chair of the Australian GP Alliance, reveals the fascinating intersection of medicine and entrepreneurship in this eye-opening conversation.
From his competitive drive to enter medicine to building a healthcare network that now employs 45 doctors and 60 staff across multiple Canberra locations, Dr. Deery shares the remarkable journey of YourGP since its humble beginnings in 2012. He dispels common misconceptions about general practice, explaining how four out of five GP clinics in Australia operate as small businesses with independent doctors working as tenants rather than employees.
Canberra residents might be surprised to learn their city faces a significant GP shortage comparable to regional Australia despite its metropolitan status. Dr. Deery unpacks the complex factors behind this shortage and his strategic approach to addressing it through doctor training and recruitment initiatives.
This episode is supported by CareSuper.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm joined byDr John Derry, the CEO of
YourGP and the chair of theAustralian GP Alliance, which
was formed in 2016 to representthe interests of GP practice
owners nationwide.
John, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks, greg, appreciate it.
So let's just start with a bitof background.
(00:33):
Your background is as a GP andyou're a relatively recent
founder, I think, of your GP.
Tell us how that's gone andwhat's the business aiming to do
.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Tell us how that's gone and what's the business
aiming to do?
We started your GP in 2012, andour original aspiration was
really just to have about a10-room practice.
We'd come from a.
We both worked at anothersurgery in town, which was about
eight rooms, and so ourgreatest aspirations at that
time were maybe we'd dosomething a little bit bigger
(01:06):
than that, and so we bought someland and we, through God's
grace, built a lovely facilityat our Christ premises, but
before that time, we actuallyhad to.
When my old boss found outabout our plans to run our own
practice, he asked us to leave,so we had a 30-day notice period
(01:27):
, and so 31 days later, we'dstarted your GP at Lynham.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Right, so a little bit earlier perhaps than you'd
intended.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It was always going to be a difficult separation and
we were very blessed to openyour GP at Lynham.
It was a small trainer practice.
It was a three-room practicethat was really waiting for us
to open the door, give it somepaint and like a few computers
down and I'm employee one staffmember, and so my wife and I
started that and in 2014 wedeveloped a the craze side, and
(01:56):
that's a, now a 20 room facility, but it started off as a nine
room facility and in 2019 weopened another practice in in
Denman prospect, which is a nineroom facility, and in 2019 we
opened another practice inDenman Prospect, which is a nine
room facility.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So, yeah, so quite strong growth over that time.
There'll be some peoplelistening to this who kind of
think, well, why have we got adoctor here?
A GP is not a business.
But really it is a businessjust like any other, right.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So four out of five general practices in australia
are run by small business owners.
Um, and that goes from.
You know small practices thatare one or two doctors up to.
You know we have 45 doctorsacross our group and there are
other larger.
You know still family-ownedbusinesses that are gps as well.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So you know we're a small business or medium-sized
business, like anyone else andyou started the Australian GP
Alliance back in 2016 torepresent the interests of
general practitioners.
What was that all about?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
the AGPA is actually, it's more about representing
the owner, the interest of GPpractice owners, so there was no
one.
We we have a professional bodythat represents the interest of
GPS, the Royal AustralianCollege of GPS, and there's also
at the AMA, which represents onthe interest of doctors as a
whole, but there was no specificorganization to help gp owners
(03:22):
like myself to stay in businessand also to advocate at a
political level as well, and soin 2016, there was a little
crisis affecting some of one ofthe funding streams, one of the
streams of revenue for practices, and so agpar was born out of
that, and so, and you know,we've found a need to keep that
going over the years, and so wehave about and we've found a
(03:44):
need to keep that going over theyears, and so we have about
just over 80 members in ourorganisation, representing just
north over 100 practices acrossthe country.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Fantastic.
And are the issues facing GPsaround the country different
from state to state?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
When you say GPs, I'll take that as being GP
owners.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yes, guys, that are small business owners.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Payroll tax has become a big issue across the
country.
It's not affecting WA andQueensland Queensland legislated
last year that any payments toGPs wouldn't be liable to
payroll tax and that's alwaysbeen West Australia's point of
view and but the other statesare trying to navigate what is a
(04:33):
very large it'll be a verylarge revenue cut to owning the
business of general practice.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Now, of course, here in Canberra, we have the highest
payroll tax in the country,which is a badge of dishonour,
perhaps, for the territory.
But there'll be some peoplelistening to this who sort of
think well, you know, gppractice is a business like any
other.
Why should there be exemptionsfor you, notwithstanding the
fact that we need to bringpayroll tax rates down across
(05:02):
the?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
board.
So the GPs that work within myfacilities are not my employees.
They're tenant GPs.
I'm not their boss and in a lotof ways I provide a facility
like Westfields does for itsshop owners.
I provide services andfacilities for the GPs to be
able to help their own patientsand I certainly don't tell the
(05:24):
doctors what to do patients andyou know I certainly don't tell
the doctors what to do.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So that's an interesting point because many
people probably don't thinkabout general practitioners like
that.
Is that kind of the commonbusiness model around Australia?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Almost 100% of GPs that are working within
facilities are tenant GPsproviding a service to their
patients independently.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So, at the back end, you're sharing facilities,
you're sharing systems,presumably, but the customer
relationship is with the doctor.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yes, yes, In the same way.
It's a very similar model toWestfields.
We want to attract patients tothe facility and we want to
provide service to the GPs sothey can provide service to the
patients.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So how did you come to get into medicine in the
first place?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I was a competitive child and so I really just
wanted to win at everything thatI did, and the classroom was
just another sporting field, andso I used to be a professional
athlete and I just took thatsame attitude into the classroom
and I enjoyed beating everyonethere.
And so medicine was at the topof the tree in terms of the
(06:42):
hardest thing to get into, andso I set myself to do that was
at the top of the tree in termsof the hardest thing to get into
, and so I set myself to do that.
And well, you know, I had a lotof opportunities that others
don't get as well.
My parents sacrificed so that Icould get to go to boarding
school and have good education.
So, yeah, so anyway, I got inthe medicine and I've enjoyed
that.
I knew, you know, enjoy.
(07:02):
It's a wonderful occupationbeing a GP, because it's very
privileged, you get to enjoyrelationships with your patients
over decades, and the pay's nottoo bad either, and so it's
very easy to draw a line ofsight between what you do and
how you're making a differencein people's lives.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, and clearly some really positive outcomes in
many cases.
Hopefully, all you saidrecently to Region Canberra that
the number of GPs per capita inCanberra is probably similar to
the rates elsewhere in regionalAustralia, despite this being a
(07:46):
metro zone area.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Can you?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
elaborate on that.
Is it really right that we'reunderserved in terms of the
number of doctors per capita?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Well, in a metropolitan setting we are.
Clearly, you know, there's avast disparity between the
number of GPs per person inCanberra versus any other
metropolitan city, bar Hobartraversus any other metropolitan
city other than Darwin, andreally the number of GPs per
person in Canberra is verysimilar to regional Australia.
(08:16):
It's a little bit more, butit's certainly an underserviced
population.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What drives that?
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's a very tricky problem.
Several things have been.
I'm not really sure, reallyMost.
Until the last 15 years mostmedical centres were in, not in
Canberra, so we now have amedical.
I'm sorry you couldn't domedical training to be a doctor
and in camera, and so they wouldhave to come to camera from
(08:51):
somewhere else.
And then the strongestdeterminant of where someone
ends up as a, as a doctor, is awho they get married to right
and so you know a lot in in thepast most of those people, those
relationships are being formedwhen people are at university
and so they would tend to staythat place.
I was originally thought that Iwould go back to more regional
Australia, as I was.
I'm born in water and they'vebeen more in treatment for a
(09:13):
while and but my wife's fromcamera and here I am fantastic.
Well we're so sorry to answeryour question.
There are now medical studentsproduced in camera, but a lot of
them are choosing to leavecamera because they're just not
happy working in the healthservice here and once they leave
I it's difficult to get peopleback.
I think Canberra is a wonderfulplace to live and grow a family
(09:35):
, but it's problematic to getpeople to move here.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, and look, it seems to me, as a relative
newcomer to Canberra myself,that Canberra has a bit of an
image problem around the rest ofthe country.
We've really got to work prettyhard to get the message out
there that Canberra is anamazing place to live, work and
play.
And often, you know, I talk topeople around Australia who kind
of sneer at our beautiful citya little bit, but actually they
(10:02):
haven't been here, or if theyhave been here, it was 20 or 30
years ago and they really don'thave a good sense of what's here
.
Yeah, so so are you trying, howare you trying, to fill that
gap with your GP?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
oh we, we just try to try to try to provide
incredible services facilities,you know well.
Now, first, our first pillar ofstrategy is really having our
staff being really well trainedand enjoying their work so that
they can provide incredible youknow facilities and services to
the GPs working there.
We figure that if our staff areproviding excellent service,
(10:36):
that the doctors will enjoyworking with us and they'll
provide incredible facilitiesand services to the patients
serving them and that thendrives better patient outcomes,
better business outcomes and soyeah, we are quite well known in
the GP community in Canberra asbeing a you know, place of
choice for GPS to get trainingto be, to be trained to be GP
(10:59):
and also even, eveneven in a more national spectrum
.
Um, you know our brand is knownas well, so that's you know.
Yes, so attracting GPS theCanberra is really our next um
sort of focus as a business goal.
Um, you know, we understandthat canberra is underserviced
and so, um, we've decided tofocus on train.
(11:21):
We train doctors, we want tomarket to and, um, attract
doctors from around australia tocanberra.
Um, and they're also startingto put together a strategy
around how to get them to comefrom overseas as well yeah, and
that can be a little trickierright in terms of getting
qualifications recognized itdepends on the country that you
(11:42):
decide to market to.
So Australia has quite closerelationships with Ireland, uk,
new Zealand, south Africa, andthe level of training at those
in those countries is verysimilar to Australia, and so
we've recently had a UK GP joinus, and there he's an excellent
(12:03):
doctor, but he still had tolearn the whole system of
providing health care inAustralia, which is quite
different even from the, and sowe spent a fair bit of time,
invested a fair bit of time,just training him about just
navigating the particular healthsystem differences here and so,
yeah, oh, it's good that you'reable to sort of put that
(12:24):
investment and the time in.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I'd like to come back to your point about getting
your staff to be well trainedand enjoy their work, and that's
often a challenge that manybusiness leaders have is how do
you, what is it that you do thathelps encourage enjoyment in
the workplace and and and buildthat that great sort of team
engagement um, we, um, about 18months ago we started.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
We realized that, uh, so about 18 months ago we
realised that mostly howemployees Employees want to know
three things, and I got thisfrom a book called Drive by Dan
Pink, and if you want to justwatch the YouTube video, it's 10
minutes a lot faster.
But people want to be paidenough so they're not looking
for another job and so they canafford to live where they are.
(13:13):
And then I want to have mastery,autonomy and purpose, and so
you know, we, we want to trainour staff really well so that
they can have a sense of masteryonce they're trained
appropriately well.
You know we're not going tostand over the top of them and
tell them how to do it, you it,so they can have autonomy and a
sense of purpose is somethingthat I was grappling with for a
(13:36):
while, and so we actuallystarted having a series of All
of our staff should have atleast one one-on-one with their
coach.
We don't call our managersmanagers, we call them coaches.
They should have at least oneone-on-one with their coach
every month, and that's anopportunity for that coach to
help them, to see, you know, thework that they're doing, how
let's impact these people'slives, so helping them to see a
(13:58):
sense of purpose as well, andand then we measure we measure
how engaged our teams are andhow well trained they are, and
because we want to.
You know, I really want to make.
If you're turning up to someplace for 40 hours a week and
you're earning a wage and you'rehating your life, I'm not
interested in that.
You know, I really want peopleto be able to sense a greater
(14:20):
purpose and to see how they'reimpacting the lives of others.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, so how big is your team overall?
So you've got 29 consultingrooms.
Yeah, sorry, we've got 33consulting rooms.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, sorry, we've got 33 consulting rooms and we
have 45 GPs and I think we'vegot about 55 to 60 other staff.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Right, so that's quite a big team overall.
Is that sort of ratio ofsupport staff to GPs about
standard in the industry?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, it depends on the model of care you want to
provide.
Things can be done much moreefficiently, but that's with
much less.
It depends what you want.
We want to provide a reallycaring environment for our staff
and for the GPs and for thepatients, and we invest a lot in
that, and so you coulddefinitely do this a lot more
(15:12):
efficiently than the way that wedo it, and we have some profit
goals that we want to achieve aswell, but really, for us,
profits it's a component ofhaving a sustainable business.
It's not our reason reason forexistence, though.
The business is profitable, andbecause we want to, we have to
invest in more facilities andmore services for more doctors
(15:34):
and keep providing excellentcare in other locations so so
what is the vision for thebusiness expansion here in
Canberra, or are you looking togo national?
oh, I think we'll just startwith keeping on expanding.
You know, you know, camerafirst, we still several
operational things to solvebefore we start growing.
(15:57):
We really we want to, meaningour vision, I suppose, is to
meaningfully impact healthoutcomes and and so we have some
metrics around that as well.
But you know, we are in theprocess of looking at.
I've got we have a DAapplication in and it's six year
for another side in Amaru andwe're having some trouble
purchasing air rights from theACT government, and but we're
(16:20):
looking at two other sites intown as well currently six years
for a day or some of it was ourown.
I was happy to pause that overCOVID.
And then we've we've had someinternal you know, we had a
tremendous growth that wasn'thealthy over the COVID period.
You know we did 60,000 COVIDvaccines, we did 30,000 or
(16:42):
40,000 COVID assessment visitsand that caused a rapid
expansion in the team and thatunbridled growth.
We're still working that out.
And there were some poordecisions made by myself as well
.
We decentralised some of ourservices and that was in
hindsight a mistake and so we'rebringing those services back
(17:06):
into the businesses now, intothe, into the actual practices,
as opposed to um having aseparate site and um that's
taken some time for us to get to.
The, you know, root cause ofthose operational issues and so
um cause of those operationalissues.
But those operational issues arerapidly.
We're obviously looking at moresites, so those operational
issues are very close to beingsolved now.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Fantastic.
Well, we wish you luck as youprogress those new sites over
time.
In medicine and, I guess, ingeneral practice, there's a lot
of talk about the future oftechnology.
There's talk about telehealthas a solution to some of the GP
shortages.
Ai, of course, is on everyone'slips at the moment.
What's the role that you see inthe foreseeable future for new
(17:51):
technology coming in to help youdrive productivity?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Sure Telehealth is.
You know it's a helpfulaccessory tool that will never,
never take the place offace-to-face care.
You know obvious.
You know you obviously cannotexamine a patient if they're not
in the room with you, or youcan do a very limited version of
that.
And and also, to be frank, theGPs really don't enjoy providing
(18:20):
telephone care to patients.
It's much more enjoyable to dothat and sustainable for them to
do that in a face-to-facemanner.
Yeah, look, as with any otherbusiness, if you weren't
starting to take stock of thechanging role of technology and
how it's going to impact yourbusiness, then you better start
thinking about it now.
And how it's going to impactyour business, then you better
start thinking about it now.
(18:40):
We are already utilising AIwithin our business all the time
.
You know it's excellent athelping with.
You know formulating draftdocuments, you know taking
minutes, that sort of stuff.
We are putting into place sometools to help our reception team
(19:03):
to be more efficient and overthe next few months we'll be
rolling out some AI receptionistto take simple phone calls.
And if you, um, actually wehaven't got this in place yet,
but um, one of my sidelinebusinesses is I provide most of
the vasectomies in canberra, andso, um, we have a ai
receptionist in the works.
His name is snippy and, um, andsnippy is full of banter.
(19:24):
When people call to make aappointment with john, he's not
available yet, but, um, that'snot too far away and that won't
be.
That won't be replacing ourreceptionist.
Um, that'll be just taking awaythe a lot, of, a lot of calls
on the phone.
You know I'd like to make anappointment, and so you don't
need a highly trainedreceptionist to be able to do
(19:45):
something as perfunctory as that.
Yeah, and so that's one of theways that things that were
changing at work.
Then there's the role of thedoctor as well.
You know I I will certainly bea decision assistance support
tool in the future.
It probably won't ever belicensed to be used as a doctor
(20:05):
replacement.
That's a big deal, and AI hasan error rate.
It hallucinates between 1% and5% of the time and medicine is a
no-error zone.
You don't want to get thingswrong in other businesses.
You can afford to have someerrors.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Um, you know healthcare, uh, finance,
financial, um services, um, youcan't afford mistakes and so I
will certainly help doctors tomake less mistakes in the future
do you think your customers,your patients are ready to ring
up and talk to an AIreceptionist?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
We're going to trial it.
So we've actually trialledhaving an AI receptionist
several years ago and the AI wasfairly poor and our patients
kept persisting with it.
We trialled it for about sixmonths and just the product
wasn't ready.
That was two or three years agoand so if they would, you know
(21:03):
they've, they've their time.
Patience, time is valuable andso they'll make a decision.
I've had really ridiculouslygood conversations with AI over
the internet that lives inAmerica about the NRL and and.
I figured wow, we're talkingfootball as if you can't take,
was it take?
Take, take some phone calls forme.
(21:23):
So some patients will neverwant to speak to an AI.
But um, online, onlineappointments never used to be a
service and now that's about 45%of our appointments are made
via someone booking through anapp on a phone or through a web
portal, and I think there'll bea similar option with AI
receptionists in the future.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Do you think that yourcustomers like, if you're
introducing an AI tool to takethose bookings, you're going to
free up something somewhere?
Do you think it's going to bemigration from your online
booking tools?
Or do you think it's going tobe migration from your online
booking tools?
Or do you think it's going tobe migration from the real calls
that you're getting at themoment?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I think we'll be tracking those numbers.
I think it'll be mostly thepeople calling in, but that's a
good insight that you've had,greg.
I think that the online bookingtools, the platforms that are
out there, might face somesignificant challenges
themselves in terms of peoplewon't be utilising their
services as much because it'sgoing to be so easy to ring and
(22:25):
make an appointment over a phone.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Oh well, we'll have to get you back in a few months
and find out how Snippy's goingand check in on how the AI is
working.
Certainly, the technology Iknow has improved streaks and
bounds over leaps and bounds, Ishould say over the last couple
of years.
So it's interesting to hearabout real-life situations where
they're being implemented.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Another our doctors are all utilising about 15,.
I think 20% of our GPs are nowutilising AI to assist with
note-taking, and so the patientswill give consent for this to
occur, and the AI is listeningand on the conversation and it
does an excellent job atsummarizing the console and the
(23:10):
various issues that have beenaddressed, and it's so much
faster than to generate apossibly a referral letter or a
list of actions for the patientto follow through after the
consult as a result of that,rather than the GP sitting there
typing with two fingers.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yes, yeah, and we're seeing those sort of note-taking
tools rolling out increasinglyright across the business
community.
So my guess would be manypeople are becoming quite used
to them as a commonplace thing.
If you could change one thingabout how general practice works
(23:45):
here in Canberra, what would itbe?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh, if I could change one thing about how general
practice works in Canberra.
I think affordability forpatients is becoming more and
more problematic at the time,and the payroll tax issue that's
occurred within Canberrarecently has also definitely led
to increasing out-of-pocketexpenses and yeah, so some sort
(24:14):
of mechanism to you know keepseeing a doctor affordable would
be wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And finally, I guess just to close.
You obviously built asuccessful business through your
GP, but what advice would youhave for those who might be
wanting to follow in yourfootsteps and take on ownership
of a general practice?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, stephen Covey said, start with the end in mind
.
And so you know, have a goodthink about you, know where you
want to end up first, and thennumb.
You know, because what does theglass say?
You know, if you, if you aim atnothing, you hit it every time,
and so having a good idea ofwhere the end is will help you
to work backwards to where oneof the first steps you need to
take in that journey.
You know, most people just dowhat I did and they just open
(25:00):
the door and hopefully with nothought about where they want to
be, and they hope that peoplewill come in and see them.
So that would be my number onetakeaway.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Excellent, dr John Deary.
Thank you so much for joiningus here on the Canberra Business
Podcast.
It's been great hearing alittle bit about your business
and about the model that applieskind of in the general practice
sector, but, most importantly,fascinating to hear about the
role of technology and AI asthat evolves over time.
Thanks for joining us.
(25:31):
It's been great having you here.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's a pleasure Thanks.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Greg, and just a reminder that this episode of
the Canberra Business Podcasthas been brought to you by the
Canberra Business Chamber withthe support of Care Super and
Industry Super Fund, withcompetitive fees and returns,
exceptional service and a focuson real care.
Don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes of theCanberra Business Podcast, and
I'll catch you next time.
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm joined byDr John Derry, the CEO of
YourGP and the chair of theAustralian GP Alliance, which
was formed in 2016 to representthe interests of GP practice
owners nationwide.
John, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks, greg, appreciate it.
So let's just start with a bitof background.
(00:33):
Your background is as a GP andyou're a relatively recent
founder, I think, of your GP.
Tell us how that's gone andwhat's the business aiming to do
.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Tell us how that's gone and what's the business
aiming to do?
We started your GP in 2012, andour original aspiration was
really just to have about a10-room practice.
We'd come from a.
We both worked at anothersurgery in town, which was about
eight rooms, and so ourgreatest aspirations at that
time were maybe we'd dosomething a little bit bigger
(01:06):
than that, and so we bought someland and we, through God's
grace, built a lovely facilityat our Christ premises, but
before that time, we actuallyhad to.
When my old boss found outabout our plans to run our own
practice, he asked us to leave,so we had a 30-day notice period
(01:27):
, and so 31 days later, we'dstarted your GP at Lynham.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Right, so a little bit earlier perhaps than you'd
intended.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It was always going to be a difficult separation and
we were very blessed to openyour GP at Lynham.
It was a small trainer practice.
It was a three-room practicethat was really waiting for us
to open the door, give it somepaint and like a few computers
down and I'm employee one staffmember, and so my wife and I
started that and in 2014 wedeveloped a the craze side, and
(01:56):
that's a, now a 20 room facility, but it started off as a nine
room facility and in 2019 weopened another practice in in
Denman prospect, which is a nineroom facility, and in 2019 we
opened another practice inDenman Prospect, which is a nine
room facility.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So, yeah, so quite strong growth over that time.
There'll be some peoplelistening to this who kind of
think, well, why have we got adoctor here?
A GP is not a business.
But really it is a businessjust like any other, right.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So four out of five general practices in australia
are run by small business owners.
Um, and that goes from.
You know small practices thatare one or two doctors up to.
You know we have 45 doctorsacross our group and there are
other larger.
You know still family-ownedbusinesses that are gps as well.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So you know we're a small business or medium-sized
business, like anyone else andyou started the Australian GP
Alliance back in 2016 torepresent the interests of
general practitioners.
What was that all about?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
the AGPA is actually, it's more about representing
the owner, the interest of GPpractice owners, so there was no
one.
We we have a professional bodythat represents the interest of
GPS, the Royal AustralianCollege of GPS, and there's also
at the AMA, which represents onthe interest of doctors as a
whole, but there was no specificorganization to help gp owners
(03:22):
like myself to stay in businessand also to advocate at a
political level as well, and soin 2016, there was a little
crisis affecting some of one ofthe funding streams, one of the
streams of revenue for practices, and so agpar was born out of
that, and so, and you know,we've found a need to keep that
going over the years, and so wehave about and we've found a
(03:44):
need to keep that going over theyears, and so we have about
just over 80 members in ourorganisation, representing just
north over 100 practices acrossthe country.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Fantastic.
And are the issues facing GPsaround the country different
from state to state?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
When you say GPs, I'll take that as being GP
owners.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yes, guys, that are small business owners.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Payroll tax has become a big issue across the
country.
It's not affecting WA andQueensland Queensland legislated
last year that any payments toGPs wouldn't be liable to
payroll tax and that's alwaysbeen West Australia's point of
view and but the other statesare trying to navigate what is a
(04:33):
very large it'll be a verylarge revenue cut to owning the
business of general practice.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Now, of course, here in Canberra, we have the highest
payroll tax in the country,which is a badge of dishonour,
perhaps, for the territory.
But there'll be some peoplelistening to this who sort of
think well, you know, gppractice is a business like any
other.
Why should there be exemptionsfor you, notwithstanding the
fact that we need to bringpayroll tax rates down across
(05:02):
the?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
board.
So the GPs that work within myfacilities are not my employees.
They're tenant GPs.
I'm not their boss and in a lotof ways I provide a facility
like Westfields does for itsshop owners.
I provide services andfacilities for the GPs to be
able to help their own patientsand I certainly don't tell the
(05:24):
doctors what to do patients andyou know I certainly don't tell
the doctors what to do.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So that's an interesting point because many
people probably don't thinkabout general practitioners like
that.
Is that kind of the commonbusiness model around Australia?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Almost 100% of GPs that are working within
facilities are tenant GPsproviding a service to their
patients independently.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So, at the back end, you're sharing facilities,
you're sharing systems,presumably, but the customer
relationship is with the doctor.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yes, yes, In the same way.
It's a very similar model toWestfields.
We want to attract patients tothe facility and we want to
provide service to the GPs sothey can provide service to the
patients.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So how did you come to get into medicine in the
first place?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I was a competitive child and so I really just
wanted to win at everything thatI did, and the classroom was
just another sporting field, andso I used to be a professional
athlete and I just took thatsame attitude into the classroom
and I enjoyed beating everyonethere.
And so medicine was at the topof the tree in terms of the
(06:42):
hardest thing to get into, andso I set myself to do that was
at the top of the tree in termsof the hardest thing to get into
, and so I set myself to do that.
And well, you know, I had a lotof opportunities that others
don't get as well.
My parents sacrificed so that Icould get to go to boarding
school and have good education.
So, yeah, so anyway, I got inthe medicine and I've enjoyed
that.
I knew, you know, enjoy.
(07:02):
It's a wonderful occupationbeing a GP, because it's very
privileged, you get to enjoyrelationships with your patients
over decades, and the pay's nottoo bad either, and so it's
very easy to draw a line ofsight between what you do and
how you're making a differencein people's lives.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, and clearly some really positive outcomes in
many cases.
Hopefully, all you saidrecently to Region Canberra that
the number of GPs per capita inCanberra is probably similar to
the rates elsewhere in regionalAustralia, despite this being a
(07:46):
metro zone area.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Can you?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
elaborate on that.
Is it really right that we'reunderserved in terms of the
number of doctors per capita?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Well, in a metropolitan setting we are.
Clearly, you know, there's avast disparity between the
number of GPs per person inCanberra versus any other
metropolitan city, bar Hobartraversus any other metropolitan
city other than Darwin, andreally the number of GPs per
person in Canberra is verysimilar to regional Australia.
(08:16):
It's a little bit more, butit's certainly an underserviced
population.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What drives that?
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's a very tricky problem.
Several things have been.
I'm not really sure, reallyMost.
Until the last 15 years mostmedical centres were in, not in
Canberra, so we now have amedical.
I'm sorry you couldn't domedical training to be a doctor
and in camera, and so they wouldhave to come to camera from
(08:51):
somewhere else.
And then the strongestdeterminant of where someone
ends up as a, as a doctor, is awho they get married to right
and so you know a lot in in thepast most of those people, those
relationships are being formedwhen people are at university
and so they would tend to staythat place.
I was originally thought that Iwould go back to more regional
Australia, as I was.
I'm born in water and they'vebeen more in treatment for a
(09:13):
while and but my wife's fromcamera and here I am fantastic.
Well we're so sorry to answeryour question.
There are now medical studentsproduced in camera, but a lot of
them are choosing to leavecamera because they're just not
happy working in the healthservice here and once they leave
I it's difficult to get peopleback.
I think Canberra is a wonderfulplace to live and grow a family
(09:35):
, but it's problematic to getpeople to move here.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, and look, it seems to me, as a relative
newcomer to Canberra myself,that Canberra has a bit of an
image problem around the rest ofthe country.
We've really got to work prettyhard to get the message out
there that Canberra is anamazing place to live, work and
play.
And often, you know, I talk topeople around Australia who kind
of sneer at our beautiful citya little bit, but actually they
(10:02):
haven't been here, or if theyhave been here, it was 20 or 30
years ago and they really don'thave a good sense of what's here
.
Yeah, so so are you trying, howare you trying, to fill that
gap with your GP?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
oh we, we just try to try to try to provide
incredible services facilities,you know well.
Now, first, our first pillar ofstrategy is really having our
staff being really well trainedand enjoying their work so that
they can provide incredible youknow facilities and services to
the GPs working there.
We figure that if our staff areproviding excellent service,
(10:36):
that the doctors will enjoyworking with us and they'll
provide incredible facilitiesand services to the patients
serving them and that thendrives better patient outcomes,
better business outcomes and soyeah, we are quite well known in
the GP community in Canberra asbeing a you know, place of
choice for GPS to get trainingto be, to be trained to be GP
(10:59):
and also even, eveneven in a more national spectrum
.
Um, you know our brand is knownas well, so that's you know.
Yes, so attracting GPS theCanberra is really our next um
sort of focus as a business goal.
Um, you know, we understandthat canberra is underserviced
and so, um, we've decided tofocus on train.
(11:21):
We train doctors, we want tomarket to and, um, attract
doctors from around australia tocanberra.
Um, and they're also startingto put together a strategy
around how to get them to comefrom overseas as well yeah, and
that can be a little trickierright in terms of getting
qualifications recognized itdepends on the country that you
(11:42):
decide to market to.
So Australia has quite closerelationships with Ireland, uk,
new Zealand, south Africa, andthe level of training at those
in those countries is verysimilar to Australia, and so
we've recently had a UK GP joinus, and there he's an excellent
(12:03):
doctor, but he still had tolearn the whole system of
providing health care inAustralia, which is quite
different even from the, and sowe spent a fair bit of time,
invested a fair bit of time,just training him about just
navigating the particular healthsystem differences here and so,
yeah, oh, it's good that you'reable to sort of put that
(12:24):
investment and the time in.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I'd like to come back to your point about getting
your staff to be well trainedand enjoy their work, and that's
often a challenge that manybusiness leaders have is how do
you, what is it that you do thathelps encourage enjoyment in
the workplace and and and buildthat that great sort of team
engagement um, we, um, about 18months ago we started.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
We realized that, uh, so about 18 months ago we
realised that mostly howemployees Employees want to know
three things, and I got thisfrom a book called Drive by Dan
Pink, and if you want to justwatch the YouTube video, it's 10
minutes a lot faster.
But people want to be paidenough so they're not looking
for another job and so they canafford to live where they are.
(13:13):
And then I want to have mastery,autonomy and purpose, and so
you know, we, we want to trainour staff really well so that
they can have a sense of masteryonce they're trained
appropriately well.
You know we're not going tostand over the top of them and
tell them how to do it, you it,so they can have autonomy and a
sense of purpose is somethingthat I was grappling with for a
(13:36):
while, and so we actuallystarted having a series of All
of our staff should have atleast one one-on-one with their
coach.
We don't call our managersmanagers, we call them coaches.
They should have at least oneone-on-one with their coach
every month, and that's anopportunity for that coach to
help them, to see, you know, thework that they're doing, how
let's impact these people'slives, so helping them to see a
(13:58):
sense of purpose as well, andand then we measure we measure
how engaged our teams are andhow well trained they are, and
because we want to.
You know, I really want to make.
If you're turning up to someplace for 40 hours a week and
you're earning a wage and you'rehating your life, I'm not
interested in that.
You know, I really want peopleto be able to sense a greater
(14:20):
purpose and to see how they'reimpacting the lives of others.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, so how big is your team overall?
So you've got 29 consultingrooms.
Yeah, sorry, we've got 33consulting rooms.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, sorry, we've got 33 consulting rooms and we
have 45 GPs and I think we'vegot about 55 to 60 other staff.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Right, so that's quite a big team overall.
Is that sort of ratio ofsupport staff to GPs about
standard in the industry?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, it depends on the model of care you want to
provide.
Things can be done much moreefficiently, but that's with
much less.
It depends what you want.
We want to provide a reallycaring environment for our staff
and for the GPs and for thepatients, and we invest a lot in
that, and so you coulddefinitely do this a lot more
(15:12):
efficiently than the way that wedo it, and we have some profit
goals that we want to achieve aswell, but really, for us,
profits it's a component ofhaving a sustainable business.
It's not our reason reason forexistence, though.
The business is profitable, andbecause we want to, we have to
invest in more facilities andmore services for more doctors
(15:34):
and keep providing excellentcare in other locations so so
what is the vision for thebusiness expansion here in
Canberra, or are you looking togo national?
oh, I think we'll just startwith keeping on expanding.
You know, you know, camerafirst, we still several
operational things to solvebefore we start growing.
(15:57):
We really we want to, meaningour vision, I suppose, is to
meaningfully impact healthoutcomes and and so we have some
metrics around that as well.
But you know, we are in theprocess of looking at.
I've got we have a DAapplication in and it's six year
for another side in Amaru andwe're having some trouble
purchasing air rights from theACT government, and but we're
(16:20):
looking at two other sites intown as well currently six years
for a day or some of it was ourown.
I was happy to pause that overCOVID.
And then we've we've had someinternal you know, we had a
tremendous growth that wasn'thealthy over the COVID period.
You know we did 60,000 COVIDvaccines, we did 30,000 or
(16:42):
40,000 COVID assessment visitsand that caused a rapid
expansion in the team and thatunbridled growth.
We're still working that out.
And there were some poordecisions made by myself as well
.
We decentralised some of ourservices and that was in
hindsight a mistake and so we'rebringing those services back
(17:06):
into the businesses now, intothe, into the actual practices,
as opposed to um having aseparate site and um that's
taken some time for us to get to.
The, you know, root cause ofthose operational issues and so
um cause of those operationalissues.
But those operational issues arerapidly.
We're obviously looking at moresites, so those operational
issues are very close to beingsolved now.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Fantastic.
Well, we wish you luck as youprogress those new sites over
time.
In medicine and, I guess, ingeneral practice, there's a lot
of talk about the future oftechnology.
There's talk about telehealthas a solution to some of the GP
shortages.
Ai, of course, is on everyone'slips at the moment.
What's the role that you see inthe foreseeable future for new
(17:51):
technology coming in to help youdrive productivity?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Sure Telehealth is.
You know it's a helpfulaccessory tool that will never,
never take the place offace-to-face care.
You know obvious.
You know you obviously cannotexamine a patient if they're not
in the room with you, or youcan do a very limited version of
that.
And and also, to be frank, theGPs really don't enjoy providing
(18:20):
telephone care to patients.
It's much more enjoyable to dothat and sustainable for them to
do that in a face-to-facemanner.
Yeah, look, as with any otherbusiness, if you weren't
starting to take stock of thechanging role of technology and
how it's going to impact yourbusiness, then you better start
thinking about it now.
And how it's going to impactyour business, then you better
start thinking about it now.
(18:40):
We are already utilising AIwithin our business all the time
.
You know it's excellent athelping with.
You know formulating draftdocuments, you know taking
minutes, that sort of stuff.
We are putting into place sometools to help our reception team
(19:03):
to be more efficient and overthe next few months we'll be
rolling out some AI receptionistto take simple phone calls.
And if you, um, actually wehaven't got this in place yet,
but um, one of my sidelinebusinesses is I provide most of
the vasectomies in canberra, andso, um, we have a ai
receptionist in the works.
His name is snippy and, um, andsnippy is full of banter.
(19:24):
When people call to make aappointment with john, he's not
available yet, but, um, that'snot too far away and that won't
be.
That won't be replacing ourreceptionist.
Um, that'll be just taking awaythe a lot, of, a lot of calls
on the phone.
You know I'd like to make anappointment, and so you don't
need a highly trainedreceptionist to be able to do
(19:45):
something as perfunctory as that.
Yeah, and so that's one of theways that things that were
changing at work.
Then there's the role of thedoctor as well.
You know I I will certainly bea decision assistance support
tool in the future.
It probably won't ever belicensed to be used as a doctor
(20:05):
replacement.
That's a big deal, and AI hasan error rate.
It hallucinates between 1% and5% of the time and medicine is a
no-error zone.
You don't want to get thingswrong in other businesses.
You can afford to have someerrors.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Um, you know healthcare, uh, finance,
financial, um services, um, youcan't afford mistakes and so I
will certainly help doctors tomake less mistakes in the future
do you think your customers,your patients are ready to ring
up and talk to an AIreceptionist?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
We're going to trial it.
So we've actually trialledhaving an AI receptionist
several years ago and the AI wasfairly poor and our patients
kept persisting with it.
We trialled it for about sixmonths and just the product
wasn't ready.
That was two or three years agoand so if they would, you know
(21:03):
they've, they've their time.
Patience, time is valuable andso they'll make a decision.
I've had really ridiculouslygood conversations with AI over
the internet that lives inAmerica about the NRL and and.
I figured wow, we're talkingfootball as if you can't take,
was it take?
Take, take some phone calls forme.
(21:23):
So some patients will neverwant to speak to an AI.
But um, online, onlineappointments never used to be a
service and now that's about 45%of our appointments are made
via someone booking through anapp on a phone or through a web
portal, and I think there'll bea similar option with AI
receptionists in the future.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Do you think that yourcustomers like, if you're
introducing an AI tool to takethose bookings, you're going to
free up something somewhere?
Do you think it's going to bemigration from your online
booking tools?
Or do you think it's going tobe migration from your online
booking tools?
Or do you think it's going tobe migration from the real calls
that you're getting at themoment?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I think we'll be tracking those numbers.
I think it'll be mostly thepeople calling in, but that's a
good insight that you've had,greg.
I think that the online bookingtools, the platforms that are
out there, might face somesignificant challenges
themselves in terms of peoplewon't be utilising their
services as much because it'sgoing to be so easy to ring and
(22:25):
make an appointment over a phone.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Oh well, we'll have to get you back in a few months
and find out how Snippy's goingand check in on how the AI is
working.
Certainly, the technology Iknow has improved streaks and
bounds over leaps and bounds, Ishould say over the last couple
of years.
So it's interesting to hearabout real-life situations where
they're being implemented.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Another our doctors are all utilising about 15,.
I think 20% of our GPs are nowutilising AI to assist with
note-taking, and so the patientswill give consent for this to
occur, and the AI is listeningand on the conversation and it
does an excellent job atsummarizing the console and the
(23:10):
various issues that have beenaddressed, and it's so much
faster than to generate apossibly a referral letter or a
list of actions for the patientto follow through after the
consult as a result of that,rather than the GP sitting there
typing with two fingers.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yes, yeah, and we're seeing those sort of note-taking
tools rolling out increasinglyright across the business
community.
So my guess would be manypeople are becoming quite used
to them as a commonplace thing.
If you could change one thingabout how general practice works
(23:45):
here in Canberra, what would itbe?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh, if I could change one thing about how general
practice works in Canberra.
I think affordability forpatients is becoming more and
more problematic at the time,and the payroll tax issue that's
occurred within Canberrarecently has also definitely led
to increasing out-of-pocketexpenses and yeah, so some sort
(24:14):
of mechanism to you know keepseeing a doctor affordable would
be wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And finally, I guess just to close.
You obviously built asuccessful business through your
GP, but what advice would youhave for those who might be
wanting to follow in yourfootsteps and take on ownership
of a general practice?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, stephen Covey said, start with the end in mind
.
And so you know, have a goodthink about you, know where you
want to end up first, and thennumb.
You know, because what does theglass say?
You know, if you, if you aim atnothing, you hit it every time,
and so having a good idea ofwhere the end is will help you
to work backwards to where oneof the first steps you need to
take in that journey.
You know, most people just dowhat I did and they just open
(25:00):
the door and hopefully with nothought about where they want to
be, and they hope that peoplewill come in and see them.
So that would be my number onetakeaway.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Excellent, dr John Deary.
Thank you so much for joiningus here on the Canberra Business
Podcast.
It's been great hearing alittle bit about your business
and about the model that applieskind of in the general practice
sector, but, most importantly,fascinating to hear about the
role of technology and AI asthat evolves over time.
Thanks for joining us.
(25:31):
It's been great having you here.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's a pleasure Thanks.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Greg, and just a reminder that this episode of
the Canberra Business Podcasthas been brought to you by the
Canberra Business Chamber withthe support of Care Super and
Industry Super Fund, withcompetitive fees and returns,
exceptional service and a focuson real care.
Don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes of theCanberra Business Podcast, and
I'll catch you next time.
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