November 16, 2025 • 21 mins
A Canberra success story meets global scale: Greg sits down with Sarah Bailey, Group Executive Director and CEO Australia at Penten Amio, to unpack how a startup founded by 11 local families became a trusted partner to the Five Eyes. From secure communications that enable classified access anywhere to AI powering electronic warfare decoys, we get inside the technology, the strategy, and the people behind a binational mission.
Sarah walks us through the merger of Pen10 and AMIOsec—why it felt like a natural conclusion after years of co-developing tech, how the combined team brought Australian innovations like Trap Radio and HLX to DSEI in London, and why scale opens doors in markets like Canada. We also get a candid look at the mechanics of complex deals: multiple shareholders, new financing, and navigating national security investment rules across two countries without losing momentum or mission clarity.
The conversation zooms out to a fast-changing cybersecurity landscape where phishing is disturbingly convincing and every organization—not just defence—needs to treat cyber as a whole-of-business responsibility. Sarah offers practical guidance leaders can act on now: build secure-by-default systems, train with real-world examples, and normalize open dialogue about risk. We close on leadership—how words shape work, why values alignment matters, and what it feels like to be the only woman in the room when ideas land differently depending on who talks about them. It’s an honest, grounded look at building resilient tech, cohesive culture, and steady leadership across time zones and turbulent headlines.
If you enjoy thoughtful conversations on defence technology, cybersecurity, AI in electronic warfare, and real-world leadership, follow the show, share with a colleague, and leave a quick review to help others discover the pod.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your host fromthe Canberra Business Chamber,
and I'm delighted to be joinedtoday by Sarah Bailey, who's the
Group Executive Director and CEOof Australia for Pen 10 AMEO.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Now look, it's it's great to have you here.
Pen 10 was a Canberra businessthat's grown and expanded and
merged with a UK company.
So tell us uh about Pen 10 AMIOand and what is it that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
We are a business of 300 people in Australia and the
UK, focusing on some of the mostcomplicated challenges of
government and defence.
Our customers are obviously thegovernments of of both the UK
and Australia as our primarymarkets, but of course FiveEyes
governments and and otherallies.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
So what sort of products and services do you
provide?
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
So the the biggest part of the Pantanamio business
is our secure communicationsbusiness line.
It effectively supportsgovernment and defence users to
be able to access classifiedinformation in a way that's
appropriate from a securityperspective for defence and
government customers.
I'll talk about some of ourproducts shortly, but um but you
(01:28):
can imagine that the way inwhich we all access and need to
use information, and which isalso obviously the same for
government and defence workers,the ability to access the
information they need at anypoint in any place in a way that
is appropriate for security isincredibly important, and that's
the primary area of the businessof Pentanamio.
(01:49):
In addition to that, though, wehave actually had a
long-standing artificialintelligence business line.
In fact, the team has beenaround for more than eight
years, again, focusing on theapplication of AI and machine
learning to a range ofgovernment and defence
challenges, one of which,particularly, is in the
evolution of electronic warfareand the application of machine
(02:10):
learning, particularly to decoysin that environment.
But again, as you can imagine,there's a range of different AI
applications that government anddefence are contemplating, and
so we are certainly at theforefront supporting them in the
application of AI.
So they're the major parts ofthe business of Pentanamio
across AU and UK.
We've got other components ofour business like innovation
(02:32):
services, where we've got abunch of incredibly talented
engineers that are uh workingwith our customers on um a range
of different really complicatedtechnical challenges, and we do
do so in a way that's really youknow quite in a deep sort of
partnership with our with ourcustomers.
So that's that's the that's themajor part of the business of
Pen Mio.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
So where did the business come from?
Um you've been involved with Pen10 here in Canberra for a while.
Um how did how did that businessbegin and what was your
involvement?
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Yeah, so the business actually started, the
Pen 10 business started actuallyin 2014 with 11 local families.
Um I think it's a wonderfulsuccess story, one of many
actually coming out of Canberra.
Uh, and it started with um those11 families, or certainly 11
representatives from thosefamilies, coming together, uh
(03:20):
contemplating the next wave oftechnical challenges that
government defence would befacing.
Um there we've grown to, as Isaid, sort of you know close to
300 people.
At the same time that Pen 10started in Australia and in
Canberra, AMIOSec in the UKstarted at roughly the same
point in time.
And in fact, the founders of Pen10 and the founders of AMIOSec
(03:40):
actually had worked together indifferent guises prior to the
establishment of both thosebusinesses.
So there was a really goodunderstanding and and um common
desire or sorry, a desire todeal with common problems of
government and defence.
Um I think it's a you know it'sa really, really good uh
Canberra good news story.
I love talking about the factthat some of the world's um best
(04:03):
technologies in our space hasbeen generated from ultimately
these 11 families.
I started with what was Pen 10back in 2018, and I started in
the role of the CFO.
I think I might have been person37 of Pen 10 at that stage.
Um, and it was just honestlyjust really fun.
It was absolutely rolling oursleeves up, we were growing
really quite significantly, um,and and bringing, I suppose,
(04:28):
some of my background in thecontext of much larger
organizations and the way inwhich we need to think about
scaling in a sustainable,structured way, was certainly
what I contributed and still docontribute to the business.
I joined the board of what wasPen 10 back in 2019 and and then
have been working with uh thebusiness obviously on the
(04:50):
strategy for growth and then ofcourse led the merger between
Pen 10 and AMIOSec.
We'd always had a desire tobring the business together uh
simply because of that common umthe common outlook of the
problems we were solving.
Uh we actually co-developed arange of technologies over the
existence of both businesses,obviously under commercial
(05:10):
constructs, and so been able tonow be part of the same uh
broader family with AMIOSec isis you know genuinely fantastic.
So we only completed thattransaction just back in in
April of this year, uh, but it'sbeen one of the most natural
mergers I've ever been involvedin because of that long history
together.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Yeah.
So it was really just aboutbringing um you know the logical
conclusion of working togethertogether.
Is that is that what drove thethe merger?
Why why not stay in a separatekind of commercial relationship?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Well, it's a great question.
And I'll give you some examplesof effectively the synergies of
bringing the businessestogether.
Actually, in Australia, we'vewe've developed a range of other
technologies that are not in theUK, and so the merger creates a
bigger platform for growthwhereby we can actually bring
the full offering of what wasPen 10 and what was AMIOSEC to
our customer set.
(06:00):
So, for example, in Australia wehave developed two products in
particular called Trap Radio andHLX, and just recently, just in
September, there was a reallylarge defence trade show called
DSEI in London.
And so Pentan Ameo had a standthere, and of course, we were
able to bring and demonstrateTrap Radio and HLX to DSEI.
(06:21):
And what it meant was that theMinistry of Defence in the UK,
for instance, was able to seefor the first time these
technologies that are part ofthe Pentan AMO offering now, but
of course were developed and hadtheir you know had their genesis
back in Australia.
So being able to bring um theentirety of the offering to both
our primary markets has beenreally fantastic.
So it's sort of um, you know,the sum of the parts um, you
(06:44):
know, the or the whole isgreater than the sum of the
parts in that example.
And so it wasn't just acomplementary uh merger, but
again, it's a it's created amuch bigger platform for growth.
Um one of the things as wellthat we've found since the
merger, and of course, reflectssome of the geopolitical changes
that we're we read about everyday in the newspaper, um, but
new markets are opening up,particularly for us as a larger
(07:06):
offering, and so can theCanadian government, for
instance, is an incrediblyinteresting opportunity for us
at the moment, and I do believethat in fact uh the larger scale
of Pentanamio is helping to openup opportunities like the
Canadian government.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
Now, bringing any two companies together in a
merger is always always achallenge at the best of times,
although in this case youobviously had a really good
relationship and it kind of kindof went smoothly.
But what were the big the bigchallenges in terms of bringing
teams together from oppositesides of the world?
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah, so the transaction in and of itself was
somewhat complicated.
We had quite a diverse group ofdifferent stakeholders, and they
include different shareholdinggroups on both sides of the
globe.
We introduced a new financierinto the equation.
Uh, we had to navigate throughgovernment approvals both in
(08:00):
Australia and the UK, and the UKin fact has changed its national
security investment laws justover the last um year or two,
and so navigating through areasonably new process extended
the time period at which thetransaction took, which is
completely completely fine,obviously, for the for both
governments to assess thetransaction.
(08:21):
But what it meant was that wehad a range of different
stakeholders that we had to sortof manage through through the
entirety of the transactionwhilst keeping it obviously
super tight amongst a core groupof people.
So the transaction in itself wassomewhat complicated and
elongated, but um but we'rewe're there now.
In terms of the teams, though,in the merger, I mean there are
(08:41):
really practical things thatmake the merging a bit uh more
challenging, and they're simplethings like time differences.
So the clocks are about tochange again in the UK, and so
the the time at which we have anoverlapping part of the day,
certainly for the Australianteam, is mostly in the evenings,
and and obviously in the UK it'smostly in the mornings, and and
(09:02):
that does create challengeswhere you know that can get
really tiring for people.
Uh I was even talking yesterdaywith some colleagues about the
benefit of just actuallyface-to-face interaction, and
it's a really interesting thingpost-COVID where we're also used
to working in a way that is umyou know really quite virtual.
However, the benefit offace-to-face interaction and the
(09:24):
ability to work through andbrainstorm through different
sorts of opportunities andchallenges and work processes,
whatever it happens to be, thebenefits are really significant.
Uh, and so for us then thinkingthrough right, well, how many
people do we send over to theUK?
How many people come back toAustralia?
How do we make sure that we dothat in a really effective way?
Um, now that so that's asomewhat simple challenge.
(09:47):
Um, you mentioned culture.
One of the things that I havecertainly felt through the
merger of Penton and Amyosec isthat culturally we've actually
been incredibly aligned.
Other than you know, some of thegeneric differences perhaps
between uh Aussies and Brits,which we tend to joke about
(10:08):
actually in a in a uh respectfulway.
Actually, culturally, we'vefound the merging really quite I
was going to saystraightforward, that's not the
right word, but really quiteseamless.
The reason being we've all havea very um deep understanding of
our mission, and it is a commonmission that both companies had
prior to the merging, which isultimately to protect those that
(10:30):
protect us.
I mentioned the geopoliticalchallenges and and how dynamic
that is for all of us.
And so, in that regard, it'sactually been really quite
powerful to have our team of 300focus on the things that are
genuinely important for us tosupport our customers in the
things that they are doing thatare incredibly important to all
(10:51):
of us that get to enjoy you knowliving in this country and
certainly our colleagues in theUK.
So, in that regard, having areally common and very strong
mission and vision has certainlybeen a guiding light culturally.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
So, what do you think are the biggest issues in
cybersecurity right now?
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
So I think the biggest issues is uh the threat
landscape is evolving so quicklyand in such a sophisticated way.
Um I know, even just from apersonal perspective, so
unrelated to Pentanamio, I had aphishing email the other day
from my bank uh and it wasreally good.
It was really, really good.
(11:31):
I so much so that I took it andshowed a couple of my colleagues
at work, and we were all, I'mnot gonna say impressed, um
perhaps a little bit worriedabout genuinely how good it was.
And so what we're seeing is thatthe cybersecurity environment
and the threat environment isgenuinely improving and becoming
(11:52):
more and more sophisticated,which just means that uh the
challenges that we all have asindividuals or as organizations
or as governments, um, it it isum it is not a um an even
playing field, it's not static.
And so that's probably one ofthe single biggest challenges is
is is honestly in some respectskeeping up.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Now, obviously, you you're focused very much on um
uh your your customers in thedefence space.
But do you think there arebigger issues in the business
community more generally aroundcybersecurity?
What advice would you have forum uh perhaps a non-defense
related business um thinking, orwhat are what do I need to be
worrying about in thecyberspace?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Yeah, uh so the the challenges are genuinely quite
extensive, and so for businessesnot in defence or national
security environments, in fact,we all have an incredibly
important role to play.
Um I think uh we need toacknowledge that cybersecurity
(12:56):
is not only the domain of ITteams in in organizations.
It is a thing that all of us asindividuals and as businesses
need to really think about quitecarefully because of the risk
that it does pose.
Um we've all seen recently uhQantas is a really large
organization, the way in whichthey've been uh compromised
through their call centre andthen the impact of that.
(13:19):
And and so you know it is it isa thing that everybody needs to
genuinely be curious about, tounderstand, and to have quite an
open dialogue about uh theprotections that we all need to
put in place, again, asorganizations and individuals.
I think the more that we have anopen dialogue about the threat
environment, but actually in away that's constructive and
(13:39):
positive about the things thatwe can all put in place to make
sure that we're protecting ourorganizations and our and our uh
our people, our communities, uh,I think is I think is really
genuinely important.
And that's absolutely not justfor defence and national
security companies, thatactually that is for all of us.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
So jumping back to kind of questions of leadership
and business leadership, um youknow you've obviously had a had
a long uh career at atPentanameo now.
Uh what's what's sort of thebiggest leadership lesson you've
learned along your journey?
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I feel like I've learned quite afew lessons along the way, I
have to say.
Um one of the biggest ones thatI do often reflect on, and it's
a little bit dated now, this isthis predates Pentan Ameo, or
certainly even Pen 10.
Um, one of the things I I had tolearn quite early on is we
(14:34):
actually all have differentmotivations.
And so while I have my ownvalues and ethics and
motivations I'll bring to anycircumstance, um, it's quite
it's sometimes can be reallyhard to learn that others just
simply don't share those samevalues or ethics.
But that that's okay, that's forthat person and them to get
about in the way that'sappropriate for them.
(14:56):
It can make certain situationschallenging when you're trying
to work through, be it abusiness topic or a
conversation, and you're tryingto work out what's motivating
someone in the way in whichthey're interacting with you.
Um, and the lesson being though,that I you can't I can't control
other individuals, I can'tcontrol um, and nor should I
(15:18):
dare want to, um, but thenmanaging the impact on me when
you have got that clash ofvalues and ethics is is honestly
it's it's a really tough thingto learn.
I certainly found that, in fact,actually, after having my kids
and returning to the workplace,uh, which you know has a whole
(15:39):
range of different complicationsto it from time to time, and
then having other peopleeffectively try and put their
own views on how they thought Ishould be doing my career and
life, etc.
etc., was really quiteconfronting and really
challenging to work through.
I think um I think you know,with experience and age, um uh I
(16:01):
think it's a it's certainly alesson I'm continuing to learn
is the things that I can controland the things I can't, and
actually just being proud of howI conduct myself.
I can't, I can't, I cannotcontrol others.
So that's been um, and again,it's sort of in the workplace,
but probably just a life lessonuh more broadly.
Um yeah, I mean, look, there'slots and lots of other lessons.
I was reflecting actually justjust yesterday with someone at
(16:24):
work.
I uh I made a comment last weekto to someone, we were talking
about a particular topic, and Isaid, Oh, that that's
interesting.
And three days later, uh I umheard that this person that I'd
been speaking to had done a hugeamount of work on this topic
that I had said was interesting,and came back and said, Oh
(16:47):
Sarah, I've done all thisanalysis, and here's here's this
thing that you wanted.
And and I I really had to pauseand reflect because I I didn't
feel I'd asked for a thing.
I just said this particularthing was interesting.
And so my reflection there is togo, oh gosh, words matter, and I
think particularly in roles thatpeople hold, I I know I've got
(17:08):
to be really careful about umhow I communicate with people
because I hadn't intended forthis person to do a whole bunch
of work.
I genuinely just meant it as,oh, that's interesting.
And so, even just that I mean,that's a a current learning in
my new role and just making surethat I um am communicating in a
way that's actually reallyeffective for others, not just
(17:32):
for me.
Um, so that's been that's aninteresting learning.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Yeah, and really good to be aware of, right?
Because um no one wants to becreating extra work
unintentionally.
That's enough to do in mostorganisations.
That's absolutely right.
Do you think um leadership isdifferent for women?
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Yes, I do.
Um yes, I do, and it's for lotsand lots and lots of reasons,
some of which will besubconscious, where people will
deal and interact with medifferently than a male
colleague.
Um I think that um uh there arelots of general contributors.
(18:14):
I think because of theexperiences that many women will
have had, and statistically, weknow there's a range of
experiences that any woman inany room brings to the table.
Um, and so even thoseexperiences will shape the way
in which she feels in a meetingand the way in which others may
(18:35):
or may not interact with her.
Um there are classic thingswhere, and again, I I have an
example from literally only twoweeks ago where I was in a
meeting with a range of people.
I happen to be the only woman inthis particular meeting, which
is is is absolutely fine, andI'm very used to that, I have to
(18:56):
say.
Um, and I made a point about theparticular um topic of the
meeting, and the conversationwent on, and then uh a guy then
made exactly the same point, andthe room went, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's that's that's a goodpoint.
And I was like, What's going onhere?
(19:16):
This is because it actuallydoesn't happen that often.
Um, and then another guy madethe same, sort of re-reiterated
the same point, everyone's like,Yeah, great points, guys.
And and I just was like, what isgoing on that this circumstance
that we've we've um you knowmany times heard of is still
happening.
And um, you know, there's thingslike that that you go, gosh,
(19:37):
that's a different experience.
I'm I'm probably reasonablyalive to it.
I suspect that everyone else inthat room might won't have, if I
if I'd replayed it to them, theywon't have realized uh what I
felt had happened.
Um so yeah, in that regard, I dothink it's a different
experience.
I do think that uh oftentimes umyou know women need to really
(20:00):
put themselves out there muchmore so.
Um I think um I think we've gotan extraordinary role to play in
leadership in whateverenvironment that is.
But also too, do men.
I just I just think that weshould be celebrating all types
of leadership.
I'd I would love to see um youknow more female leaders of
(20:20):
particularly our really largeorganisations from a business
perspective.
I'm super pleased to see thenumber of women leading our,
particularly our some of ournational security agencies and
defence organisations, I thinkis absolutely wonderful.
And again, is it is a reallygood uh illustration of in lots
of different environments therole that women can play in
(20:40):
leadership.
But yes, to answer yourquestion, do I think it's a
different experience?
Yes, I do think it is adifferent experience, um, but
I'm not going to let that stopme, and I and I hope that even
women looking at me and my ownexperiences that they too go,
well, if Sarah can do it, I canabsolutely do it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Excellent.
Well, on that note, Sarah Baileyuh from Pentian AMO, thank you
so much for joining us on theCanberra Business Podcast.
It's been great to learn alittle bit more about uh the
business, the merger, and indeeduh your experiences as a leader.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
Uh we'll catch you next time on the Canberra
Business Podcast.
Um, don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes.
Thanks very much.
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your host fromthe Canberra Business Chamber,
and I'm delighted to be joinedtoday by Sarah Bailey, who's the
Group Executive Director and CEOof Australia for Pen 10 AMEO.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:32):
Now look, it's it's great to have you here.
Pen 10 was a Canberra businessthat's grown and expanded and
merged with a UK company.
So tell us uh about Pen 10 AMIOand and what is it that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
We are a business of 300 people in Australia and the
UK, focusing on some of the mostcomplicated challenges of
government and defence.
Our customers are obviously thegovernments of of both the UK
and Australia as our primarymarkets, but of course FiveEyes
governments and and otherallies.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
So what sort of products and services do you
provide?
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
So the the biggest part of the Pantanamio business
is our secure communicationsbusiness line.
It effectively supportsgovernment and defence users to
be able to access classifiedinformation in a way that's
appropriate from a securityperspective for defence and
government customers.
I'll talk about some of ourproducts shortly, but um but you
(01:28):
can imagine that the way inwhich we all access and need to
use information, and which isalso obviously the same for
government and defence workers,the ability to access the
information they need at anypoint in any place in a way that
is appropriate for security isincredibly important, and that's
the primary area of the businessof Pentanamio.
(01:49):
In addition to that, though, wehave actually had a
long-standing artificialintelligence business line.
In fact, the team has beenaround for more than eight
years, again, focusing on theapplication of AI and machine
learning to a range ofgovernment and defence
challenges, one of which,particularly, is in the
evolution of electronic warfareand the application of machine
(02:10):
learning, particularly to decoysin that environment.
But again, as you can imagine,there's a range of different AI
applications that government anddefence are contemplating, and
so we are certainly at theforefront supporting them in the
application of AI.
So they're the major parts ofthe business of Pentanamio
across AU and UK.
We've got other components ofour business like innovation
(02:32):
services, where we've got abunch of incredibly talented
engineers that are uh workingwith our customers on um a range
of different really complicatedtechnical challenges, and we do
do so in a way that's really youknow quite in a deep sort of
partnership with our with ourcustomers.
So that's that's the that's themajor part of the business of
Pen Mio.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
So where did the business come from?
Um you've been involved with Pen10 here in Canberra for a while.
Um how did how did that businessbegin and what was your
involvement?
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Yeah, so the business actually started, the
Pen 10 business started actuallyin 2014 with 11 local families.
Um I think it's a wonderfulsuccess story, one of many
actually coming out of Canberra.
Uh, and it started with um those11 families, or certainly 11
representatives from thosefamilies, coming together, uh
(03:20):
contemplating the next wave oftechnical challenges that
government defence would befacing.
Um there we've grown to, as Isaid, sort of you know close to
300 people.
At the same time that Pen 10started in Australia and in
Canberra, AMIOSec in the UKstarted at roughly the same
point in time.
And in fact, the founders of Pen10 and the founders of AMIOSec
(03:40):
actually had worked together indifferent guises prior to the
establishment of both thosebusinesses.
So there was a really goodunderstanding and and um common
desire or sorry, a desire todeal with common problems of
government and defence.
Um I think it's a you know it'sa really, really good uh
Canberra good news story.
I love talking about the factthat some of the world's um best
(04:03):
technologies in our space hasbeen generated from ultimately
these 11 families.
I started with what was Pen 10back in 2018, and I started in
the role of the CFO.
I think I might have been person37 of Pen 10 at that stage.
Um, and it was just honestlyjust really fun.
It was absolutely rolling oursleeves up, we were growing
really quite significantly, um,and and bringing, I suppose,
(04:28):
some of my background in thecontext of much larger
organizations and the way inwhich we need to think about
scaling in a sustainable,structured way, was certainly
what I contributed and still docontribute to the business.
I joined the board of what wasPen 10 back in 2019 and and then
have been working with uh thebusiness obviously on the
(04:50):
strategy for growth and then ofcourse led the merger between
Pen 10 and AMIOSec.
We'd always had a desire tobring the business together uh
simply because of that common umthe common outlook of the
problems we were solving.
Uh we actually co-developed arange of technologies over the
existence of both businesses,obviously under commercial
(05:10):
constructs, and so been able tonow be part of the same uh
broader family with AMIOSec isis you know genuinely fantastic.
So we only completed thattransaction just back in in
April of this year, uh, but it'sbeen one of the most natural
mergers I've ever been involvedin because of that long history
together.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Yeah.
So it was really just aboutbringing um you know the logical
conclusion of working togethertogether.
Is that is that what drove thethe merger?
Why why not stay in a separatekind of commercial relationship?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Well, it's a great question.
And I'll give you some examplesof effectively the synergies of
bringing the businessestogether.
Actually, in Australia, we'vewe've developed a range of other
technologies that are not in theUK, and so the merger creates a
bigger platform for growthwhereby we can actually bring
the full offering of what wasPen 10 and what was AMIOSEC to
our customer set.
(06:00):
So, for example, in Australia wehave developed two products in
particular called Trap Radio andHLX, and just recently, just in
September, there was a reallylarge defence trade show called
DSEI in London.
And so Pentan Ameo had a standthere, and of course, we were
able to bring and demonstrateTrap Radio and HLX to DSEI.
(06:21):
And what it meant was that theMinistry of Defence in the UK,
for instance, was able to seefor the first time these
technologies that are part ofthe Pentan AMO offering now, but
of course were developed and hadtheir you know had their genesis
back in Australia.
So being able to bring um theentirety of the offering to both
our primary markets has beenreally fantastic.
So it's sort of um, you know,the sum of the parts um, you
(06:44):
know, the or the whole isgreater than the sum of the
parts in that example.
And so it wasn't just acomplementary uh merger, but
again, it's a it's created amuch bigger platform for growth.
Um one of the things as wellthat we've found since the
merger, and of course, reflectssome of the geopolitical changes
that we're we read about everyday in the newspaper, um, but
new markets are opening up,particularly for us as a larger
(07:06):
offering, and so can theCanadian government, for
instance, is an incrediblyinteresting opportunity for us
at the moment, and I do believethat in fact uh the larger scale
of Pentanamio is helping to openup opportunities like the
Canadian government.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
Now, bringing any two companies together in a
merger is always always achallenge at the best of times,
although in this case youobviously had a really good
relationship and it kind of kindof went smoothly.
But what were the big the bigchallenges in terms of bringing
teams together from oppositesides of the world?
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah, so the transaction in and of itself was
somewhat complicated.
We had quite a diverse group ofdifferent stakeholders, and they
include different shareholdinggroups on both sides of the
globe.
We introduced a new financierinto the equation.
Uh, we had to navigate throughgovernment approvals both in
(08:00):
Australia and the UK, and the UKin fact has changed its national
security investment laws justover the last um year or two,
and so navigating through areasonably new process extended
the time period at which thetransaction took, which is
completely completely fine,obviously, for the for both
governments to assess thetransaction.
(08:21):
But what it meant was that wehad a range of different
stakeholders that we had to sortof manage through through the
entirety of the transactionwhilst keeping it obviously
super tight amongst a core groupof people.
So the transaction in itself wassomewhat complicated and
elongated, but um but we'rewe're there now.
In terms of the teams, though,in the merger, I mean there are
(08:41):
really practical things thatmake the merging a bit uh more
challenging, and they're simplethings like time differences.
So the clocks are about tochange again in the UK, and so
the the time at which we have anoverlapping part of the day,
certainly for the Australianteam, is mostly in the evenings,
and and obviously in the UK it'smostly in the mornings, and and
(09:02):
that does create challengeswhere you know that can get
really tiring for people.
Uh I was even talking yesterdaywith some colleagues about the
benefit of just actuallyface-to-face interaction, and
it's a really interesting thingpost-COVID where we're also used
to working in a way that is umyou know really quite virtual.
However, the benefit offace-to-face interaction and the
(09:24):
ability to work through andbrainstorm through different
sorts of opportunities andchallenges and work processes,
whatever it happens to be, thebenefits are really significant.
Uh, and so for us then thinkingthrough right, well, how many
people do we send over to theUK?
How many people come back toAustralia?
How do we make sure that we dothat in a really effective way?
Um, now that so that's asomewhat simple challenge.
(09:47):
Um, you mentioned culture.
One of the things that I havecertainly felt through the
merger of Penton and Amyosec isthat culturally we've actually
been incredibly aligned.
Other than you know, some of thegeneric differences perhaps
between uh Aussies and Brits,which we tend to joke about
(10:08):
actually in a in a uh respectfulway.
Actually, culturally, we'vefound the merging really quite I
was going to saystraightforward, that's not the
right word, but really quiteseamless.
The reason being we've all havea very um deep understanding of
our mission, and it is a commonmission that both companies had
prior to the merging, which isultimately to protect those that
(10:30):
protect us.
I mentioned the geopoliticalchallenges and and how dynamic
that is for all of us.
And so, in that regard, it'sactually been really quite
powerful to have our team of 300focus on the things that are
genuinely important for us tosupport our customers in the
things that they are doing thatare incredibly important to all
(10:51):
of us that get to enjoy you knowliving in this country and
certainly our colleagues in theUK.
So, in that regard, having areally common and very strong
mission and vision has certainlybeen a guiding light culturally.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
So, what do you think are the biggest issues in
cybersecurity right now?
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
So I think the biggest issues is uh the threat
landscape is evolving so quicklyand in such a sophisticated way.
Um I know, even just from apersonal perspective, so
unrelated to Pentanamio, I had aphishing email the other day
from my bank uh and it wasreally good.
It was really, really good.
(11:31):
I so much so that I took it andshowed a couple of my colleagues
at work, and we were all, I'mnot gonna say impressed, um
perhaps a little bit worriedabout genuinely how good it was.
And so what we're seeing is thatthe cybersecurity environment
and the threat environment isgenuinely improving and becoming
(11:52):
more and more sophisticated,which just means that uh the
challenges that we all have asindividuals or as organizations
or as governments, um, it it isum it is not a um an even
playing field, it's not static.
And so that's probably one ofthe single biggest challenges is
is is honestly in some respectskeeping up.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Now, obviously, you you're focused very much on um
uh your your customers in thedefence space.
But do you think there arebigger issues in the business
community more generally aroundcybersecurity?
What advice would you have forum uh perhaps a non-defense
related business um thinking, orwhat are what do I need to be
worrying about in thecyberspace?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Yeah, uh so the the challenges are genuinely quite
extensive, and so for businessesnot in defence or national
security environments, in fact,we all have an incredibly
important role to play.
Um I think uh we need toacknowledge that cybersecurity
(12:56):
is not only the domain of ITteams in in organizations.
It is a thing that all of us asindividuals and as businesses
need to really think about quitecarefully because of the risk
that it does pose.
Um we've all seen recently uhQantas is a really large
organization, the way in whichthey've been uh compromised
through their call centre andthen the impact of that.
(13:19):
And and so you know it is it isa thing that everybody needs to
genuinely be curious about, tounderstand, and to have quite an
open dialogue about uh theprotections that we all need to
put in place, again, asorganizations and individuals.
I think the more that we have anopen dialogue about the threat
environment, but actually in away that's constructive and
(13:39):
positive about the things thatwe can all put in place to make
sure that we're protecting ourorganizations and our and our uh
our people, our communities, uh,I think is I think is really
genuinely important.
And that's absolutely not justfor defence and national
security companies, thatactually that is for all of us.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
So jumping back to kind of questions of leadership
and business leadership, um youknow you've obviously had a had
a long uh career at atPentanameo now.
Uh what's what's sort of thebiggest leadership lesson you've
learned along your journey?
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I feel like I've learned quite afew lessons along the way, I
have to say.
Um one of the biggest ones thatI do often reflect on, and it's
a little bit dated now, this isthis predates Pentan Ameo, or
certainly even Pen 10.
Um, one of the things I I had tolearn quite early on is we
(14:34):
actually all have differentmotivations.
And so while I have my ownvalues and ethics and
motivations I'll bring to anycircumstance, um, it's quite
it's sometimes can be reallyhard to learn that others just
simply don't share those samevalues or ethics.
But that that's okay, that's forthat person and them to get
about in the way that'sappropriate for them.
(14:56):
It can make certain situationschallenging when you're trying
to work through, be it abusiness topic or a
conversation, and you're tryingto work out what's motivating
someone in the way in whichthey're interacting with you.
Um, and the lesson being though,that I you can't I can't control
other individuals, I can'tcontrol um, and nor should I
(15:18):
dare want to, um, but thenmanaging the impact on me when
you have got that clash ofvalues and ethics is is honestly
it's it's a really tough thingto learn.
I certainly found that, in fact,actually, after having my kids
and returning to the workplace,uh, which you know has a whole
(15:39):
range of different complicationsto it from time to time, and
then having other peopleeffectively try and put their
own views on how they thought Ishould be doing my career and
life, etc.
etc., was really quiteconfronting and really
challenging to work through.
I think um I think you know,with experience and age, um uh I
(16:01):
think it's a it's certainly alesson I'm continuing to learn
is the things that I can controland the things I can't, and
actually just being proud of howI conduct myself.
I can't, I can't, I cannotcontrol others.
So that's been um, and again,it's sort of in the workplace,
but probably just a life lessonuh more broadly.
Um yeah, I mean, look, there'slots and lots of other lessons.
I was reflecting actually justjust yesterday with someone at
(16:24):
work.
I uh I made a comment last weekto to someone, we were talking
about a particular topic, and Isaid, Oh, that that's
interesting.
And three days later, uh I umheard that this person that I'd
been speaking to had done a hugeamount of work on this topic
that I had said was interesting,and came back and said, Oh
(16:47):
Sarah, I've done all thisanalysis, and here's here's this
thing that you wanted.
And and I I really had to pauseand reflect because I I didn't
feel I'd asked for a thing.
I just said this particularthing was interesting.
And so my reflection there is togo, oh gosh, words matter, and I
think particularly in roles thatpeople hold, I I know I've got
(17:08):
to be really careful about umhow I communicate with people
because I hadn't intended forthis person to do a whole bunch
of work.
I genuinely just meant it as,oh, that's interesting.
And so, even just that I mean,that's a a current learning in
my new role and just making surethat I um am communicating in a
way that's actually reallyeffective for others, not just
(17:32):
for me.
Um, so that's been that's aninteresting learning.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Yeah, and really good to be aware of, right?
Because um no one wants to becreating extra work
unintentionally.
That's enough to do in mostorganisations.
That's absolutely right.
Do you think um leadership isdifferent for women?
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Yes, I do.
Um yes, I do, and it's for lotsand lots and lots of reasons,
some of which will besubconscious, where people will
deal and interact with medifferently than a male
colleague.
Um I think that um uh there arelots of general contributors.
(18:14):
I think because of theexperiences that many women will
have had, and statistically, weknow there's a range of
experiences that any woman inany room brings to the table.
Um, and so even thoseexperiences will shape the way
in which she feels in a meetingand the way in which others may
(18:35):
or may not interact with her.
Um there are classic thingswhere, and again, I I have an
example from literally only twoweeks ago where I was in a
meeting with a range of people.
I happen to be the only woman inthis particular meeting, which
is is is absolutely fine, andI'm very used to that, I have to
(18:56):
say.
Um, and I made a point about theparticular um topic of the
meeting, and the conversationwent on, and then uh a guy then
made exactly the same point, andthe room went, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's that's that's a goodpoint.
And I was like, What's going onhere?
(19:16):
This is because it actuallydoesn't happen that often.
Um, and then another guy madethe same, sort of re-reiterated
the same point, everyone's like,Yeah, great points, guys.
And and I just was like, what isgoing on that this circumstance
that we've we've um you knowmany times heard of is still
happening.
And um, you know, there's thingslike that that you go, gosh,
(19:37):
that's a different experience.
I'm I'm probably reasonablyalive to it.
I suspect that everyone else inthat room might won't have, if I
if I'd replayed it to them, theywon't have realized uh what I
felt had happened.
Um so yeah, in that regard, I dothink it's a different
experience.
I do think that uh oftentimes umyou know women need to really
(20:00):
put themselves out there muchmore so.
Um I think um I think we've gotan extraordinary role to play in
leadership in whateverenvironment that is.
But also too, do men.
I just I just think that weshould be celebrating all types
of leadership.
I'd I would love to see um youknow more female leaders of
(20:20):
particularly our really largeorganisations from a business
perspective.
I'm super pleased to see thenumber of women leading our,
particularly our some of ournational security agencies and
defence organisations, I thinkis absolutely wonderful.
And again, is it is a reallygood uh illustration of in lots
of different environments therole that women can play in
(20:40):
leadership.
But yes, to answer yourquestion, do I think it's a
different experience?
Yes, I do think it is adifferent experience, um, but
I'm not going to let that stopme, and I and I hope that even
women looking at me and my ownexperiences that they too go,
well, if Sarah can do it, I canabsolutely do it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Excellent.
Well, on that note, Sarah Baileyuh from Pentian AMO, thank you
so much for joining us on theCanberra Business Podcast.
It's been great to learn alittle bit more about uh the
business, the merger, and indeeduh your experiences as a leader.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
Uh we'll catch you next time on the Canberra
Business Podcast.
Um, don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes.
Thanks very much.
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