March 2, 2025 • 27 mins
Engaging in meaningful discussions about employment for individuals with disabilities is essential. The conversation centers around how Koomarri is transforming the landscape through customized employment solutions.
• Introducing guests Nadine Stephen and Shane Johnson from Kumari
• Overview of Kumari’s mission and services for people with disabilities
• Discussion on the NDIS and its impact on service delivery
• The essence of customized employment and its success stories
• Addressing employer concerns and showcasing the benefits of inclusion
• Exploring the challenges and opportunities in the disability employment sector
This episode is supported by CareSuper.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, I'm Greg Hartford from the Canberra
Business Chamber and this is theCanberra Business Podcast,
where we talk all thingsbusiness right here in the
nation's capital.
Today we're talking to NadineStephen and Shane Johnson.
Nadine is the Chief Executiveand Shane is the Employment
Services Manager at Kumari, oneof Canberra's oldest business.
So, nadine and Shane, welcometo the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thank you so much for having us, Greg.
Thanks, Greg.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Now, it's great having you here and great to
learn a little bit more aboutKumari.
As I say, you're probably oneof the oldest businesses in
Canberra.
You've been going for nearly 73years and you're a
not-for-profit operating in thedisability space.
But, nadine, what is it thatyou actually do?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well thanks, greg.
Yes, 73 years this year.
We are the largest specialistintellectual disability service
provider in Canberra and thelocal region and we essentially
support people with intellectualdisability to have the best
life they can, to live theirdreams, goals and aspirations,
(01:08):
and we do that across variousdifferent life domains Community
access in their own home,supported accommodation.
We encourage people to get moreskills, interest, but
particularly in employment, andsupported employment has been
(01:29):
our area of expertise for theentire time.
We actually started from twoparents in a garage in their
home and they were particularlykeen for their children to be
educated and employed likeanybody else in the Canberra
community without a disability.
So the organisation has grownand evolved over that period of
(01:53):
time, but still with that maincore mission of people being
educated and employed just likeany other Canberran.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So it's a big growth curve from two people and a
garage somewhere in the backblocks of Canberra in the 50s.
How big are you now?
How many team have you got?
How many people are yousupporting?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Oh look, we support quite a few well, about a couple
of hundred people overdifferent service lines.
Service lines we had done a bitof a business review last year
and we are now just going tohave more of a focus on our
employment skills andaccommodation in response to the
(02:36):
new NDIS environment that we'rein.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So what does that mean for the layperson?
The new NDIS environment Soundsa little challenging.
It sounds a little challenging.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It is a little challenging and it's
particularly not that new we'rea decade in now in the ACT.
There are some really goodthings about the NDIS and there
have been some particularlychallenging things about the
NDIS.
The funding is challenging forbusiness to operate within, but
I would like to take thisopportunity to talk about the
(03:08):
good stuff that comes out of it,because it's got a lot of bad
press at the moment.
One of the benefits of the NDISis that it takes the balance of
power from organisations toindividuals.
So previously, an organisationwould get a bucket of money from
government to deliver someprograms, and what happens now
(03:29):
is that people get their ownindividual funding package to
spend it with whom and how theywish.
So what that has enabled Kamarito do is to provide a much more
personalised and tailoredresponse for people, and
particularly in the employmentspace.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
And that must put a lot of power back in the hands,
essentially, of the consumer.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
It does.
It's really wonderful.
So they get to dictate toorganisations where they would
like to go and what they wouldlike to do, and the benefit for
us is that we can really tailorthat.
So we had done a lot of workover the last decade moving from
an older employment model to anew, contemporary approach.
(04:18):
So we deliver a customisedemployment model and I'm sure
people have heard that term.
It can be thrown around but wehad done a lot of research into
how we could deliver a morecontemporary, personalised
approach for people.
So we had purchased acustomised employment model from
(04:40):
overseas where it has beenquite successful for many
decades, and we're about eightyears in now into delivering
this model and it's verysuccessful.
So it's a wonderful opportunityto share this model with local
Canberra business today.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So, shane, let's come to you.
Do you want to talk us througha little bit more about what the
customised employment modelactually?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
means Sure about what the customized employment model
actually means, sure?
so I guess the differencebetween us and some other
programs is that we are focusingon the long term, so a lot of a
lot of programs will have avacancy and then aim to fill it
with participants or job seekersand our approach is the
(05:24):
opposite of that.
So we, our program, goes over a12-month period and we break
that up into three parts.
And the first part is careerdiscovery, where we spend the
first 10 weeks and 40 hoursgetting to know the participant.
We get to know the family, weget to talk to their peers,
(05:49):
their mentors and those sorts ofthings we then obviously get in
.
This isn't aligned with theNDIS plan, so in there in that
plan, because it's all aboutchoice and control and you know
when they want to have asuccessful life.
So what we do is we sort ofwork out obviously they're going
to have employment as theirfirst goal in their, in their
(06:10):
plan, and then the secondarygoal might be working in
whatever field or endeavor theywould like to do.
So after those first 10 weekswe are always thinking about
where we can place them intowork experience for the next
10-week block.
And then we find a suitablebusiness and or government
(06:31):
entity that you know if it'sadmin or if they want to work in
a flower shop or those sorts ofthings.
We approach those employersbased on the skills that they
have and and where they want go.
While we're also doing thefirst part and the second part,
we are still working on theskills gaps that they may have,
(06:52):
whether that's on presentation,whether that's on hygiene,
literacy, numeracy.
So we sort of do it in two sortof separate ways and we do it's
so person-cent-centered, so wewe drill down, we go super
granular, we find exactly whatit is they want to do, how
they'd like to do it, and then,as I like to say, sometimes you
(07:14):
know you may not be able to flythe space shuttle, but we can.
You know we can get you to aplace where you're working at
NASA.
Do you know what I mean?
So it's just like what's thatjourney look like?
What are the steps once we'vedone the work experience phase?
While we're doing that, wealways, in communication with
the employer, make sure they'regoing okay.
(07:36):
We also deliver disabilityawareness training.
So Nadine and I went out theother day to the Pharmacy Guild
and we delivered the trainingfor, I think, about 70 of their
people, because we're about toput someone in there.
So they're about to interviewthree of our participants.
They would like and that givesour participants the experience
(08:09):
of coming in practicing what aninterview looks like, how to be
presentable, and then, and thenthey choose and then, as part of
that, once that person'semployed, it's, it's super easy,
super simple.
It's only going to be for threehour shift once a week.
And we find, when we explainthat to businesses and or
government, they're like oh we,we can find three hours for one
person to do.
(08:30):
If it's admin, if it's gardening, we've, we've got so many
different people which we can gointo later on where we've got
it, what out, where we've gotour teams.
And then once, once they'vedone, done that for 10 weeks.
We can either do it two ways.
They can employ that person asopen employment, where they pay
(08:51):
them directly themselves and doall those things, or if they
don't want to have the burden ofdoing that, or they're worried
about the risk and those sortsof things, because you know,
like we said before, like itdoesn't always work out and
we'll talk about that as well.
But we can do it as supportedemployment, where it's like a
(09:12):
labor hire type model.
We become the employer, theybecome the host, we take on all
those responsibilities with sickleave and annual leave and
those sorts of things and we wedo a range of different things
with contracts and people, youknow, open hire and all that
sort of thing.
So we can go into more depthlater if you like.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So I guess you've got 10 weeks where you're working
really closely with the personand with their families and
other stakeholders.
To map things out Ten weeks ofwork experience.
Is that work experiencetypically paid or unpaid?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
No, so work experience is unpaid, then
obviously our we that's thething with us so we look at a
12-month plan.
So our goal by the end of the 12months is getting that
participant into employment.
And so the difference between usand other programs where they
generally do a three month and asix month interim, what I found
(10:04):
with my 20 years of experienceworking with people with
disabilities is that and it'slike even just anyone that
starts a new job understandsthat you're all super excited at
a start.
At about the seven month markand this is my thing with people
that are doing a six month isthat when you do 12 months it's
(10:24):
just that extra bit longerbecause at about the seven month
mark, whether you have adisability, whether you're, you
know, neurotypical, just youknow, just a regular job off the
street, at about seven monthsyou have this sudden realization
oh, I'm working, and theexcitement of all that has
dulled down and it's you're inthe grind every day and it's the
(10:44):
nitty-gritty.
And that's when we find, withmy experience, at that seven
month mark, where people startto have a few little problems
and us being there for that 12month period, um, we can almost
we're aware of what's, what'scoming and we have strategies
ready to go, based on um, wheretheir skills are, where their um
(11:07):
deficits may be, and we canalmost plan for that and that's
what makes it successful.
And we have that relationshipwith the host or the employer
and we do it all together as acommunity, almost to set them up
for success.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So what sort of response do you get from
employers?
Because there'll be businessesout there who are kind of
looking at it and they'll be abit worried about the
administrative burden of takingon someone with disabilities in
the short term and what thatmight mean for them.
Do they need to put a lot ofeffort into it?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
No, because what happens is when we I like to use
beyond bank is a really greatexample.
So David from beyond bank overin Mawson is about to take one
of our participants and it'sbasically what we'd like to say
is it's a two-for-one, so theyare always supported because
(12:06):
we're not for profit, so we getour funding from, you know, the
NDIS plan, so they can havethey'll always have a support
person with them on the job andwork experience for as little or
as long as they need.
We'd like to think, nadine andI and the team like to think
that we want to do ourselves outof a job.
Sometimes that's not going tohappen in, you know, in real
(12:31):
terms.
So we give that person, theparticipant, as little or as
much support as they need ontheir journey.
So if it's five years, tenyears, that's fine, and if not,
because they've got that NDISplan, and if it gets to a point
where they can do it all bythemselves, then off they go and
(12:51):
they do that.
So you know they they can dotravel training so they can get
there.
They have we put every sort ofsupport that they need or
accommodation that they may need, whether it's noise cancelling,
headphones or working in aquieter space.
If you know you've got someonewho's um, neurodiverse or you
know, on that autistic spectrum,we really dial in and see how
(13:11):
we can set the person up forsuccess over the long term.
And you know, like you said,what we there are hiccups along
the way and we wait becausewe're doing the paperwork and if
we're doing it like up in thelabor high model with support
and employment, we we take onthat risk, we take on that
burden.
So literally you get almostlike two people for one.
(13:32):
So if you're doing gardeningand the support person rocks up
and they and they're with theparticipant, you know they they
can do, you know, whatever it isthat's, we generally will give
a skills list to the employer atfirst and go what is it that
you require?
What would you like the outcometo be after a three month
(13:52):
period?
Then we work with the supportand the participant to so that
they can tick off all thosetasks by the end of the three
months and then, when thathappens, if they're happy with
it, then they can, you know, putthem on as a supported employee
or they can put them on open ifif, for some reason, they can
(14:15):
do 60 or 70 percent of thoseduties.
What we'll do then is somethingwhich is called job carving,
and then we can do it.
Do it that way where, if afull-time person could do a
certain amount of activities onon a day, then we we have our
own person that comes in,assessor, that will come in and
(14:38):
assess what level they arecapable of doing, and then we,
and then we adjust it to that,and so we look like we call it
customized obviously, and that'sbecause we just we, you know
it's the perfect word for it, we, just we and so we call it
customised obviously, and that'sbecause we just, you know it's
the perfect word for it.
We just tailor it to suit.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
So now, dean, there'll be people listening to
this podcast who kind of rolltheir eyes a little bit at this
and say well, it's all very wellthat I've got to customise the
jobs in my business to takeaccount of people with
disabilities, but actually isn'tthat just a bit of an
administrative burden, andaren't I better off just getting
a full-time person in to do thejob?
I mean, what's your response tothat?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Look.
Might I just start by saying,quite sadly, the unemployment
rate for people with disabilityand intellectual disability is
still double that of the generalpopulation and we've been
sitting at that rate for about30 years now, which is
disappointing for us as acountry.
(15:40):
I understand the difficultiesof running a business, I
understand cost pressures and Iunderstand workforce issues
getting the right person for theright job.
What a person with a disabilitybrings to a workplace is good
skills and tasks.
It is not difficult foremployers.
(16:01):
That is our job and that's whatwe do and that's what we do
well.
So once we match a person andwe find a business that has the
willingness to give it a go,then that work around having the
job, finding the skills that'swhat we do with the employer.
(16:22):
And do you find?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
that Canberra businesses are open to the idea
of this.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, there are some business that are open to it,
but we definitely need more.
We need more business to get onboard.
There's social and economicbenefit for employing a person
with a disability.
I think the statistics sitaround one in five people have a
disability or know someone witha disability, so it would be
(16:51):
likely that lots of businessowners and workers in the
Canberra community would alsobenefit from either a family
member or someone that they knowbeing meaningfully employed.
There's economic benefit to thebusiness.
As Shane was saying, it's atwo-for-one model.
There's a person with adisability who has skills and
(17:14):
abilities matched to theorganization and they come with
a support worker.
There's no cost to the businessfor the support worker.
That's what ndis does, and theother benefit too is it's not so
much hard work for businessbecause of the labour hire
arrangement that we have.
So we do the administration andthe liabilities and the
(17:36):
corporate work in the backgroundas well.
So I'd say it's actually easierto support someone in this
model than to actually gothrough a general recruitment
process for someone without adisability.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
So let's talk a little bit about, I guess, the
labour hire model but, moreimportantly, what happens when
things don't work out.
Because there must besituations where you have some
people into a business forwhatever reason it's not working
.
I guess easier in a labour hiremodel because you can, Of
(18:07):
course you can remove the personthrough that model.
But what's your advicegenerally to businesses in those
?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
situations.
That's the same as anybody inany job.
I myself has been in jobs whereI haven't been the right match.
I'm sure everyone has been in ajob that wasn't the right job
for them or for the employer.
And look, that does happen.
We've designed the model sothat there's a large lead-up
(18:38):
phase where there's nocommitment either side, and
that's why we do the workexperience 10 weeks to start
with.
So there's no obligation forbusiness and there's no
obligation for the person with adisability or their family to
commit either side.
And that's one of themitigating strategies that we've
put in place that helps theplacements work longer term.
(19:00):
So, rather than a place andtrain historical model, we do it
in the opposite way.
And yes, of course it's thesame with any other employment
situation.
Sometimes it's not the rightmatch and we say, ok, it's not
the right match, let's trysomebody else, but for those 10
weeks, three months, four months, whatever it has been there's
(19:25):
still the benefit of having hadthat on both sides, for business
and for individuals.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So labour hire companies sometimes get a bit of
a bad rap around town and thefederal government last year
made some changes to try andrein in sort of supposed
mistreatment of workers bylabour hire companies.
How do you feel about thosesituations?
Presumably you're there doing,trying to do the right thing for
(19:53):
your customers, your peoplewith disabilities, do you feel a
little bit tarred by thebroader brush of labour hire?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Not necessarily.
I mean Kamari itself is alsoregulated under ACT government
under the labour hirecertification process that they
put in the last few years.
So we go through all of thoserules and regulations and are
audited to make sure that we areundertaking the right practices
.
I wouldn't say that we arenecessarily tarnished with that.
(20:29):
I think what we supply tobusiness and departments is a
range of different employmentmodels, so we're quite flexible.
It doesn't just have to be thatlabour hire you can ultimately
hire directly yourself as youwill, but being an ethical
quality, better practiceorganisation, then of course all
(20:51):
of those arrangements withlabour hire we do with the
utmost to highest level ofethical standards.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Is it a big compliance burden for you?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Compliance is yes.
Compliance is a large amount ofour work at Kamari, not just
necessarily in that space, butmore broadly as a disability
service provider and aregistered service provider.
Disability service provider anda registered service provider.
Compliance is becoming more andmore of an administrative
(21:26):
burden for Kamari, and it is forlots of other business and
organisations.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, All right, Shane, let's jump back to you,
and I guess my question for youat this point is well, you're
out there talking to businessesworking to get people with
disabilities into workexperience and into work.
Do you think attitudes arechanging?
Is there more willingness toembrace that untapped pool of
(21:49):
talent?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I think definitely over the last two years there's
been a lot more interest.
You know like we've got somegreat relationships and a lot of
ours referrals.
So we, you know we haveparticipants in services
Australia, treasury, universityof Canberra, doma, hotel, realm,
(22:11):
shampoo ch' so we've gotgovernment, we've got private
enterprise and quite often weall deliver training to, to
someone who's going to be a host, and then they tell other
people about it and that's whatwe found is that?
Because one of the things thatsets up us up for success, I
(22:35):
think, is the collaborationbetween Kumari, the employer,
the family, the participantthemselves, and then they see
how well the program is workingsomewhere and they'll either see
it and go oh that's amazing,and tell us about that, and we
get referrals all the time.
(22:55):
Outside of that, obviously, I'mon LinkedIn and Nadine and I go
out weekly to target differentemployers where our participants
have sort of said you know,everyone wants to work in the
public service.
So we obviously do that and youknow I've worked with Services
Australia, social Services,defence, so I've got lots of
(23:17):
contacts in Canberra.
Nadine has been around for30-odd years and, look, everyone
that I talk to knows Kamari insome aspect or has had someone
work for Kamari or be supportedby Kamari.
So as much as when I moved toCanberra from Cooma, I thought,
oh, it's going to be this bigthing.
It's a small town, everybodyknows everybody.
(23:37):
It's going to be this big thing, it's a small town, everybody
knows everybody.
We're renowned for delivering aquality service and I think
that's what sets us apart fromother sort of models, and we
love what we do.
We come in daily.
Nadine and I are regularly infrom 7 o'clock in the morning
(23:58):
till 5 o'clock in the morningtill, you know, five o'clock in
the afternoon, and we are on thego all the time and um that
filters down through every otherdepartment.
I've never worked at a placewhere I've felt so much um as
it's like.
It's like a family.
We love what we do.
The participants are like partof our family, and then we get
(24:20):
just as much enjoyment out ofplacing someone with an employer
as the, as the families and theparticipant themselves, and
that's, that's just a genuineresponse from everyone that
works in that space for us sonow, dean, it sounds like you've
built an amazing team cultureand your time at the top of
Kumari.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
How have you done that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
What's the secret?
It's a simple passion forpeople with a disability to have
the best life they can.
It's that simple.
It's not a complicated, it'sjust simply not complicated.
It's just having the passion toensure that everybody can be
(25:01):
the best that they can.
Everybody has skills, everybodyhas something to offer and we
are actually all just the sameat the end of the day.
Greg, we've had a particularlyrough couple of years at Kamari
in our transitioning into theNDIS.
It has been difficult tomaintain all of our business
(25:26):
lines and last year we had tomake the difficult decision to
close a couple of those and tofocus on our employment and
accommodation and our skillsdevelopment.
So whilst it has been adifficult regrettably sad period
last year, this year we wouldlike to focus on growing back
(25:53):
our employment branch in thisarea.
In terms of the culture ofKamari, as Shane said, we're a
big family and everybody caresdeeply for one another.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And that's an awesome way to be in your business
really.
I mean, I think there's manybusinesses that will listen to
that and think that's exactlythe aspiration that I have, so
it's a great work.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Sure, it's just take each day and just be kind to
each other.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Very, very wise advice there.
Look.
Thank you very much for joiningus today.
This has been the CanberraBusiness Podcast.
I'm Greg Halford from theCanberra Business Chamber and
I've been joined by NadineStephen and Shane Johnson from
Kumari.
Thanks for being here.
Really great to hear a littlebit more about the business and
everything that you do.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Greg.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Now, don't forget to follow us on your favourite
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the Canberra Business Podcast.
And I do want to thank CareSuper.
This podcast has been broughtto you by the Canberra Business
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caresupercomau.
Thanks very much for joining us.
Hello, I'm Greg Hartford from the Canberra
Business Chamber and this is theCanberra Business Podcast,
where we talk all thingsbusiness right here in the
nation's capital.
Today we're talking to NadineStephen and Shane Johnson.
Nadine is the Chief Executiveand Shane is the Employment
Services Manager at Kumari, oneof Canberra's oldest business.
So, nadine and Shane, welcometo the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thank you so much for having us, Greg.
Thanks, Greg.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Now, it's great having you here and great to
learn a little bit more aboutKumari.
As I say, you're probably oneof the oldest businesses in
Canberra.
You've been going for nearly 73years and you're a
not-for-profit operating in thedisability space.
But, nadine, what is it thatyou actually do?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well thanks, greg.
Yes, 73 years this year.
We are the largest specialistintellectual disability service
provider in Canberra and thelocal region and we essentially
support people with intellectualdisability to have the best
life they can, to live theirdreams, goals and aspirations,
(01:08):
and we do that across variousdifferent life domains Community
access in their own home,supported accommodation.
We encourage people to get moreskills, interest, but
particularly in employment, andsupported employment has been
(01:29):
our area of expertise for theentire time.
We actually started from twoparents in a garage in their
home and they were particularlykeen for their children to be
educated and employed likeanybody else in the Canberra
community without a disability.
So the organisation has grownand evolved over that period of
(01:53):
time, but still with that maincore mission of people being
educated and employed just likeany other Canberran.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So it's a big growth curve from two people and a
garage somewhere in the backblocks of Canberra in the 50s.
How big are you now?
How many team have you got?
How many people are yousupporting?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Oh look, we support quite a few well, about a couple
of hundred people overdifferent service lines.
Service lines we had done a bitof a business review last year
and we are now just going tohave more of a focus on our
employment skills andaccommodation in response to the
(02:36):
new NDIS environment that we'rein.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So what does that mean for the layperson?
The new NDIS environment Soundsa little challenging.
It sounds a little challenging.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It is a little challenging and it's
particularly not that new we'rea decade in now in the ACT.
There are some really goodthings about the NDIS and there
have been some particularlychallenging things about the
NDIS.
The funding is challenging forbusiness to operate within, but
I would like to take thisopportunity to talk about the
(03:08):
good stuff that comes out of it,because it's got a lot of bad
press at the moment.
One of the benefits of the NDISis that it takes the balance of
power from organisations toindividuals.
So previously, an organisationwould get a bucket of money from
government to deliver someprograms, and what happens now
(03:29):
is that people get their ownindividual funding package to
spend it with whom and how theywish.
So what that has enabled Kamarito do is to provide a much more
personalised and tailoredresponse for people, and
particularly in the employmentspace.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
And that must put a lot of power back in the hands,
essentially, of the consumer.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
It does.
It's really wonderful.
So they get to dictate toorganisations where they would
like to go and what they wouldlike to do, and the benefit for
us is that we can really tailorthat.
So we had done a lot of workover the last decade moving from
an older employment model to anew, contemporary approach.
(04:18):
So we deliver a customisedemployment model and I'm sure
people have heard that term.
It can be thrown around but wehad done a lot of research into
how we could deliver a morecontemporary, personalised
approach for people.
So we had purchased acustomised employment model from
(04:40):
overseas where it has beenquite successful for many
decades, and we're about eightyears in now into delivering
this model and it's verysuccessful.
So it's a wonderful opportunityto share this model with local
Canberra business today.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So, shane, let's come to you.
Do you want to talk us througha little bit more about what the
customised employment modelactually?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
means Sure about what the customized employment model
actually means, sure?
so I guess the differencebetween us and some other
programs is that we are focusingon the long term, so a lot of a
lot of programs will have avacancy and then aim to fill it
with participants or job seekersand our approach is the
(05:24):
opposite of that.
So we, our program, goes over a12-month period and we break
that up into three parts.
And the first part is careerdiscovery, where we spend the
first 10 weeks and 40 hoursgetting to know the participant.
We get to know the family, weget to talk to their peers,
(05:49):
their mentors and those sorts ofthings we then obviously get in
.
This isn't aligned with theNDIS plan, so in there in that
plan, because it's all aboutchoice and control and you know
when they want to have asuccessful life.
So what we do is we sort ofwork out obviously they're going
to have employment as theirfirst goal in their, in their
(06:10):
plan, and then the secondarygoal might be working in
whatever field or endeavor theywould like to do.
So after those first 10 weekswe are always thinking about
where we can place them intowork experience for the next
10-week block.
And then we find a suitablebusiness and or government
(06:31):
entity that you know if it'sadmin or if they want to work in
a flower shop or those sorts ofthings.
We approach those employersbased on the skills that they
have and and where they want go.
While we're also doing thefirst part and the second part,
we are still working on theskills gaps that they may have,
(06:52):
whether that's on presentation,whether that's on hygiene,
literacy, numeracy.
So we sort of do it in two sortof separate ways and we do it's
so person-cent-centered, so wewe drill down, we go super
granular, we find exactly whatit is they want to do, how
they'd like to do it, and then,as I like to say, sometimes you
(07:14):
know you may not be able to flythe space shuttle, but we can.
You know we can get you to aplace where you're working at
NASA.
Do you know what I mean?
So it's just like what's thatjourney look like?
What are the steps once we'vedone the work experience phase?
While we're doing that, wealways, in communication with
the employer, make sure they'regoing okay.
(07:36):
We also deliver disabilityawareness training.
So Nadine and I went out theother day to the Pharmacy Guild
and we delivered the trainingfor, I think, about 70 of their
people, because we're about toput someone in there.
So they're about to interviewthree of our participants.
They would like and that givesour participants the experience
(08:09):
of coming in practicing what aninterview looks like, how to be
presentable, and then, and thenthey choose and then, as part of
that, once that person'semployed, it's, it's super easy,
super simple.
It's only going to be for threehour shift once a week.
And we find, when we explainthat to businesses and or
government, they're like oh we,we can find three hours for one
person to do.
(08:30):
If it's admin, if it's gardening, we've, we've got so many
different people which we can gointo later on where we've got
it, what out, where we've gotour teams.
And then once, once they'vedone, done that for 10 weeks.
We can either do it two ways.
They can employ that person asopen employment, where they pay
(08:51):
them directly themselves and doall those things, or if they
don't want to have the burden ofdoing that, or they're worried
about the risk and those sortsof things, because you know,
like we said before, like itdoesn't always work out and
we'll talk about that as well.
But we can do it as supportedemployment, where it's like a
(09:12):
labor hire type model.
We become the employer, theybecome the host, we take on all
those responsibilities with sickleave and annual leave and
those sorts of things and we wedo a range of different things
with contracts and people, youknow, open hire and all that
sort of thing.
So we can go into more depthlater if you like.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So I guess you've got 10 weeks where you're working
really closely with the personand with their families and
other stakeholders.
To map things out Ten weeks ofwork experience.
Is that work experiencetypically paid or unpaid?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
No, so work experience is unpaid, then
obviously our we that's thething with us so we look at a
12-month plan.
So our goal by the end of the 12months is getting that
participant into employment.
And so the difference between usand other programs where they
generally do a three month and asix month interim, what I found
(10:04):
with my 20 years of experienceworking with people with
disabilities is that and it'slike even just anyone that
starts a new job understandsthat you're all super excited at
a start.
At about the seven month markand this is my thing with people
that are doing a six month isthat when you do 12 months it's
(10:24):
just that extra bit longerbecause at about the seven month
mark, whether you have adisability, whether you're, you
know, neurotypical, just youknow, just a regular job off the
street, at about seven monthsyou have this sudden realization
oh, I'm working, and theexcitement of all that has
dulled down and it's you're inthe grind every day and it's the
(10:44):
nitty-gritty.
And that's when we find, withmy experience, at that seven
month mark, where people startto have a few little problems
and us being there for that 12month period, um, we can almost
we're aware of what's, what'scoming and we have strategies
ready to go, based on um, wheretheir skills are, where their um
(11:07):
deficits may be, and we canalmost plan for that and that's
what makes it successful.
And we have that relationshipwith the host or the employer
and we do it all together as acommunity, almost to set them up
for success.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So what sort of response do you get from
employers?
Because there'll be businessesout there who are kind of
looking at it and they'll be abit worried about the
administrative burden of takingon someone with disabilities in
the short term and what thatmight mean for them.
Do they need to put a lot ofeffort into it?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
No, because what happens is when we I like to use
beyond bank is a really greatexample.
So David from beyond bank overin Mawson is about to take one
of our participants and it'sbasically what we'd like to say
is it's a two-for-one, so theyare always supported because
(12:06):
we're not for profit, so we getour funding from, you know, the
NDIS plan, so they can havethey'll always have a support
person with them on the job andwork experience for as little or
as long as they need.
We'd like to think, nadine andI and the team like to think
that we want to do ourselves outof a job.
Sometimes that's not going tohappen in, you know, in real
(12:31):
terms.
So we give that person, theparticipant, as little or as
much support as they need ontheir journey.
So if it's five years, tenyears, that's fine, and if not,
because they've got that NDISplan, and if it gets to a point
where they can do it all bythemselves, then off they go and
(12:51):
they do that.
So you know they they can dotravel training so they can get
there.
They have we put every sort ofsupport that they need or
accommodation that they may need, whether it's noise cancelling,
headphones or working in aquieter space.
If you know you've got someonewho's um, neurodiverse or you
know, on that autistic spectrum,we really dial in and see how
(13:11):
we can set the person up forsuccess over the long term.
And you know, like you said,what we there are hiccups along
the way and we wait becausewe're doing the paperwork and if
we're doing it like up in thelabor high model with support
and employment, we we take onthat risk, we take on that
burden.
So literally you get almostlike two people for one.
(13:32):
So if you're doing gardeningand the support person rocks up
and they and they're with theparticipant, you know they they
can do, you know, whatever it isthat's, we generally will give
a skills list to the employer atfirst and go what is it that
you require?
What would you like the outcometo be after a three month
(13:52):
period?
Then we work with the supportand the participant to so that
they can tick off all thosetasks by the end of the three
months and then, when thathappens, if they're happy with
it, then they can, you know, putthem on as a supported employee
or they can put them on open ifif, for some reason, they can
(14:15):
do 60 or 70 percent of thoseduties.
What we'll do then is somethingwhich is called job carving,
and then we can do it.
Do it that way where, if afull-time person could do a
certain amount of activities onon a day, then we we have our
own person that comes in,assessor, that will come in and
(14:38):
assess what level they arecapable of doing, and then we,
and then we adjust it to that,and so we look like we call it
customized obviously, and that'sbecause we just we, you know
it's the perfect word for it, we, just we and so we call it
customised obviously, and that'sbecause we just, you know it's
the perfect word for it.
We just tailor it to suit.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
So now, dean, there'll be people listening to
this podcast who kind of rolltheir eyes a little bit at this
and say well, it's all very wellthat I've got to customise the
jobs in my business to takeaccount of people with
disabilities, but actually isn'tthat just a bit of an
administrative burden, andaren't I better off just getting
a full-time person in to do thejob?
I mean, what's your response tothat?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Look.
Might I just start by saying,quite sadly, the unemployment
rate for people with disabilityand intellectual disability is
still double that of the generalpopulation and we've been
sitting at that rate for about30 years now, which is
disappointing for us as acountry.
(15:40):
I understand the difficultiesof running a business, I
understand cost pressures and Iunderstand workforce issues
getting the right person for theright job.
What a person with a disabilitybrings to a workplace is good
skills and tasks.
It is not difficult foremployers.
(16:01):
That is our job and that's whatwe do and that's what we do
well.
So once we match a person andwe find a business that has the
willingness to give it a go,then that work around having the
job, finding the skills that'swhat we do with the employer.
(16:22):
And do you find?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
that Canberra businesses are open to the idea
of this.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, there are some business that are open to it,
but we definitely need more.
We need more business to get onboard.
There's social and economicbenefit for employing a person
with a disability.
I think the statistics sitaround one in five people have a
disability or know someone witha disability, so it would be
(16:51):
likely that lots of businessowners and workers in the
Canberra community would alsobenefit from either a family
member or someone that they knowbeing meaningfully employed.
There's economic benefit to thebusiness.
As Shane was saying, it's atwo-for-one model.
There's a person with adisability who has skills and
(17:14):
abilities matched to theorganization and they come with
a support worker.
There's no cost to the businessfor the support worker.
That's what ndis does, and theother benefit too is it's not so
much hard work for businessbecause of the labour hire
arrangement that we have.
So we do the administration andthe liabilities and the
(17:36):
corporate work in the backgroundas well.
So I'd say it's actually easierto support someone in this
model than to actually gothrough a general recruitment
process for someone without adisability.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
So let's talk a little bit about, I guess, the
labour hire model but, moreimportantly, what happens when
things don't work out.
Because there must besituations where you have some
people into a business forwhatever reason it's not working
.
I guess easier in a labour hiremodel because you can, Of
(18:07):
course you can remove the personthrough that model.
But what's your advicegenerally to businesses in those
?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
situations.
That's the same as anybody inany job.
I myself has been in jobs whereI haven't been the right match.
I'm sure everyone has been in ajob that wasn't the right job
for them or for the employer.
And look, that does happen.
We've designed the model sothat there's a large lead-up
(18:38):
phase where there's nocommitment either side, and
that's why we do the workexperience 10 weeks to start
with.
So there's no obligation forbusiness and there's no
obligation for the person with adisability or their family to
commit either side.
And that's one of themitigating strategies that we've
put in place that helps theplacements work longer term.
(19:00):
So, rather than a place andtrain historical model, we do it
in the opposite way.
And yes, of course it's thesame with any other employment
situation.
Sometimes it's not the rightmatch and we say, ok, it's not
the right match, let's trysomebody else, but for those 10
weeks, three months, four months, whatever it has been there's
(19:25):
still the benefit of having hadthat on both sides, for business
and for individuals.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So labour hire companies sometimes get a bit of
a bad rap around town and thefederal government last year
made some changes to try andrein in sort of supposed
mistreatment of workers bylabour hire companies.
How do you feel about thosesituations?
Presumably you're there doing,trying to do the right thing for
(19:53):
your customers, your peoplewith disabilities, do you feel a
little bit tarred by thebroader brush of labour hire?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Not necessarily.
I mean Kamari itself is alsoregulated under ACT government
under the labour hirecertification process that they
put in the last few years.
So we go through all of thoserules and regulations and are
audited to make sure that we areundertaking the right practices
.
I wouldn't say that we arenecessarily tarnished with that.
(20:29):
I think what we supply tobusiness and departments is a
range of different employmentmodels, so we're quite flexible.
It doesn't just have to be thatlabour hire you can ultimately
hire directly yourself as youwill, but being an ethical
quality, better practiceorganisation, then of course all
(20:51):
of those arrangements withlabour hire we do with the
utmost to highest level ofethical standards.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Is it a big compliance burden for you?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Compliance is yes.
Compliance is a large amount ofour work at Kamari, not just
necessarily in that space, butmore broadly as a disability
service provider and aregistered service provider.
Disability service provider anda registered service provider.
Compliance is becoming more andmore of an administrative
(21:26):
burden for Kamari, and it is forlots of other business and
organisations.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, All right, Shane, let's jump back to you,
and I guess my question for youat this point is well, you're
out there talking to businessesworking to get people with
disabilities into workexperience and into work.
Do you think attitudes arechanging?
Is there more willingness toembrace that untapped pool of
(21:49):
talent?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I think definitely over the last two years there's
been a lot more interest.
You know like we've got somegreat relationships and a lot of
ours referrals.
So we, you know we haveparticipants in services
Australia, treasury, universityof Canberra, doma, hotel, realm,
(22:11):
shampoo ch' so we've gotgovernment, we've got private
enterprise and quite often weall deliver training to, to
someone who's going to be a host, and then they tell other
people about it and that's whatwe found is that?
Because one of the things thatsets up us up for success, I
(22:35):
think, is the collaborationbetween Kumari, the employer,
the family, the participantthemselves, and then they see
how well the program is workingsomewhere and they'll either see
it and go oh that's amazing,and tell us about that, and we
get referrals all the time.
(22:55):
Outside of that, obviously, I'mon LinkedIn and Nadine and I go
out weekly to target differentemployers where our participants
have sort of said you know,everyone wants to work in the
public service.
So we obviously do that and youknow I've worked with Services
Australia, social Services,defence, so I've got lots of
(23:17):
contacts in Canberra.
Nadine has been around for30-odd years and, look, everyone
that I talk to knows Kamari insome aspect or has had someone
work for Kamari or be supportedby Kamari.
So as much as when I moved toCanberra from Cooma, I thought,
oh, it's going to be this bigthing.
It's a small town, everybodyknows everybody.
(23:37):
It's going to be this big thing, it's a small town, everybody
knows everybody.
We're renowned for delivering aquality service and I think
that's what sets us apart fromother sort of models, and we
love what we do.
We come in daily.
Nadine and I are regularly infrom 7 o'clock in the morning
(23:58):
till 5 o'clock in the morningtill, you know, five o'clock in
the afternoon, and we are on thego all the time and um that
filters down through every otherdepartment.
I've never worked at a placewhere I've felt so much um as
it's like.
It's like a family.
We love what we do.
The participants are like partof our family, and then we get
(24:20):
just as much enjoyment out ofplacing someone with an employer
as the, as the families and theparticipant themselves, and
that's, that's just a genuineresponse from everyone that
works in that space for us sonow, dean, it sounds like you've
built an amazing team cultureand your time at the top of
Kumari.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
How have you done that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
What's the secret?
It's a simple passion forpeople with a disability to have
the best life they can.
It's that simple.
It's not a complicated, it'sjust simply not complicated.
It's just having the passion toensure that everybody can be
(25:01):
the best that they can.
Everybody has skills, everybodyhas something to offer and we
are actually all just the sameat the end of the day.
Greg, we've had a particularlyrough couple of years at Kamari
in our transitioning into theNDIS.
It has been difficult tomaintain all of our business
(25:26):
lines and last year we had tomake the difficult decision to
close a couple of those and tofocus on our employment and
accommodation and our skillsdevelopment.
So whilst it has been adifficult regrettably sad period
last year, this year we wouldlike to focus on growing back
(25:53):
our employment branch in thisarea.
In terms of the culture ofKamari, as Shane said, we're a
big family and everybody caresdeeply for one another.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And that's an awesome way to be in your business
really.
I mean, I think there's manybusinesses that will listen to
that and think that's exactlythe aspiration that I have, so
it's a great work.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Sure, it's just take each day and just be kind to
each other.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Very, very wise advice there.
Look.
Thank you very much for joiningus today.
This has been the CanberraBusiness Podcast.
I'm Greg Halford from theCanberra Business Chamber and
I've been joined by NadineStephen and Shane Johnson from
Kumari.
Thanks for being here.
Really great to hear a littlebit more about the business and
everything that you do.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Greg.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Now, don't forget to follow us on your favourite
podcast platform to stay up todate with the latest editions of
the Canberra Business Podcast.
And I do want to thank CareSuper.
This podcast has been broughtto you by the Canberra Business
Chamber with the support of CareSuper, an industry super fund
with competitive fees andreturns, exceptional service and
a focus on real care, and youcan find out more at
caresupercomau.
Thanks very much for joining us.
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