June 30, 2025 • 22 mins
A thriving workplace isn't just about attractive salaries – it's about nurturing employee engagement that drives productivity, innovation, and business growth. Sarah Rajic, Managing Director of Capital Recruit, reveals that engaged employees can be 200-300% more productive than their disengaged counterparts, directly impacting your bottom line.
Drawing from her dual perspectives as both a successful business leader and recruitment specialist, Sarah shares practical wisdom on creating meaningful engagement. Rather than aiming for unrealistic "perfect 10" engagement scores, she advocates for sustainable approaches that maintain healthy 7-8/10 levels while addressing areas of disengagement through clear expectations and supportive conversations.
Being compliant with the law, and understanding the impacts of the "Closing Loopholes" changes to the Fair Work Act are a key part of this, and productive teams drive great outcomes for business.
This episode is supported by the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry and funded by the Productivity, Education and Training Fund.
Subscribe to the Canberra Business Podcast for more expert insights to help your business thrive, and remember that Canberra Business Chamber members can access free workplace relations support through our employer assist hotline.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm talkingabout employee engagement with
Sarah Rajic, the ManagingDirector of Capital Recruit from
you guessed it right here inthe nation's capital, sarah.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Craig, look, it's great having you back.
We're having this conversationtoday because employees sit at
the heart of every successfulbusiness, and I know you have an
interesting view of employeeengagement, not only because you
run a successful business witha moderate-sized team, but also
because you're in therecruitment business and you see
firsthand the struggles thatemployers might have, and you
(00:50):
also get a sense of whatcandidates are looking for if
they want to be engaged andproductive.
So why do you think employeeengagement matters?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Oh, it's so important .
Employee engagement matters tobusiness because a happy
workplace will be a betterperforming workplace, a higher
performing workplace.
Their engagement will flow totheir lives, to their client
engagement and their thinking,their innovation, their delivery
(01:19):
and their outcomes.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
How much more productive do you think an
engaged employee is over adisengaged one?
100% more active, more higher,performing 100%, double, triple,
three times five times and howdo you kind of see that flow
through?
What does that mean in apractical sense?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
We see a higher engagement with each other, with
their colleagues, and that teammorale and that driving forward
together improves productivity.
Then their engagement withtheir clients they're more
positive and happy and able tohave real conversations with
their clients and they feeltrusted and valued from their
clients and their colleagues andthat drives performance.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
In some big corporates and in government
they're often measuring employeeengagement.
They're using big surveysinternational surveys in some
cases to test the engagementlevels of a team.
How do you do it in your firm?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah.
So we have an employeeengagement survey that we look
at every six months and we had aHR consulting company that
helped us deliver that and wethought about what the questions
were going to be and we triedto keep them the same so we
could then measure it sixmonthly and see how we've
progressed and what's going upand what's going down.
Employee engagement you don't.
(02:46):
It's really difficult to havesomeone that's 10 out of 10 and
typically you don't want someonethat's 10 out of 10.
They've got other things goingon.
Work and life integrates, butwhat's going on with someone
personally can impact theirperformance at work or their
engagement at work.
So you kind of want them to bearound that 7 and 8 because it's
(03:07):
more manageable and moresustainable than someone that's
at a 10.
And likewise, if you've got toomany people at the bottom end,
you want to work on how can weget those people up and how we
can get them at that 6, 7, 8level mark.
So we do that on a six-monthlybasis and then track it over
many years and we look at what'sgoing on in the environment,
(03:28):
what's going on in the industryand what could be impactful and
what can we do, and recognisingthat we can't do everything for
everyone.
It's about doing providing themwith opportunities to be
engaged in the environment, butrecognising that they're people
and there's stuff that goes onin people's lives and that it
(03:50):
can impact on their engagementat work.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah and a six-monthly survey sounds like a
big commitment from amanagement point of view.
How big is your team?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
At the moment it's 10 , but we've been up to as big as
24.
No, it's not at all onerous.
There's platforms and there'sconsulting firms that can help
you with it as well, but it's asurvey that takes five to ten
minutes, and then the platformsconsolidate that for you.
Now you're going to ask me whatthe platform is well, no, I was
going to say to you.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Is that something you would recommend other firms be
doing?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
um, it's a temperature check um, you know,
it's a temperature check and I'mbig on no surprises.
You should be speaking with andengaged with your staff, um,
every day, every week, every,every month, consistently, so
that they shouldn't be surprised.
But it's about giving themanother avenue to express
themselves and let you know howthey're feeling.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
On an individual level.
You know, as a leader of people, you must get a sense as to
sort of whether people areengaged or disengaged in your
firm.
How do you know if an employeeis disengaged and what should
you be doing about it as aleader?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
We don't need to know everything that's going on for
every individual in yourorganisation.
It's not possible for us to dothat.
So it's about creating anenvironment where they feel you
can engage, they can share andbe vulnerable with you, but we
don't have the expectation thatthey have to share everything.
We don't want them.
We're not ask.
I don't ask them questionsspecifically and say did you
(05:24):
stub your toe on the way to workthis morning Because you're in
a bad mood?
It's more about how are you andwhat are your plans for this
week and what are your planslonger term, but not drilling
them down and asking them toshare every detail with you.
You don't need them to.
We're all going to have gooddays and bad days, but it's
about how do we bring our bestself to the office, and you do
(05:46):
that by not feeling like you'regoing to be attacked.
You feel like you can just beyourself in the office and drive
your team performance forward.
So how do I do it?
I keep the conversation flowing.
I share, I'm vulnerable.
Greg, when I came in and metwith you this morning, I shared
that I was involved in a littleprank yesterday and that was
(06:06):
still buzzing in my mood today.
So me being vulnerable andsharing a little bit helps
others to share back with me aswell.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And if you've got someone in your team who's
really not engaged, perhaps overtime, is consistently kind of
present but not really there inthe workplace.
What are your tips for managingthose sorts of situations?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Meet with them regularly, have clear
expectations and haveconversations about how they're
going to achieve that, howthey're going with achieving
those expectations and what aresome of the barriers that you
could help them to pull down.
But yeah, it's clear.
But some people are disengagedbut they just continue and drive
forward, but it becomes reallytiresome.
(06:59):
And then you ask I ask themquestions about well, what does
the next month look like, whatdoes the next quarter look like,
or the next six months looklike, and what are their
longer-term goals as well?
So we have performance reviewsin my business too, and that
sort of thing can be addressedin that.
But once again, it's that nosurprises.
Let's keep the conversationsgoing rather than just looking
(07:23):
from a distance and judging.
It's about engaging.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Do you think a disengaged employee can ever
perform as well as an engagedemployee?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, they can for a short period, so they can fake
it for a while and just get onwith the job.
But longer term it would beit's in my view it would be
almost impossible.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So what are your key tips for driving an engaged team
culture?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, thinking about the values of your organisation
and ensuring that your team hasvalue alignment, having clear
expectations and givingrecognition and helping to drive
that forward.
Giving examples of highperformance and what it looks
like and helping people to getto that way and conversations,
(08:14):
talking and being involved.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Now you and your team in fact deal with candidates
for roles every day.
What are you hearing thatemployers sorry that employees
are looking for from employersin 2025?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
employers are sorry that employees are looking for
from employers in 2025.
Yeah, um, they're thinkingabout um, what's the role and
who are they going to be workingwith?
Is the role going to besatisfying to them?
Is it the type of work thatthey want to be doing?
Um, some of them not all willbe looking for career
progression and keeping up withthe trends and what's moving
forward.
For example, how we're usingdata in hr and how can we drive
that and do that better.
Or how are we?
(08:55):
You know, data analytics infinancial management or data
analytics in project management.
So, what are the trends andwill this role help them keep
across those trends?
Flexibility also that you knowthey can schedule for their car
to be serviced and it's okay toto take some days off to do
(09:16):
personal admin and maybe workfrom home one day a week as well
.
That seems to be quite popular.
Um, and then, when they are inthe office, having that
collaboration and having, uh,the opportunity to work with the
team.
Also, what else has been bigfor people?
I'd say that's it.
(09:40):
It's who they're going to beworking with.
What are they going to be doingand where can this, this role,
progress them to?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
and you talked a little bit about values
alignment earlier.
You know, making sure you'vegot values for your organisation
, making sure that your team'saligned with those values.
To what extent do you think thevalues are driven by the team
and vice versa?
Do you think that the Is it thejob of managers to set that
(10:12):
culture, or do you need to kindof reflect what your team is
doing?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I think it needs to be driven from the top, but then
employees are brought on boardand explained what the values
look like and giving examples ofhow that is delivered each day,
or each client interaction orcolleague interaction.
So it does need to be set fromthe top, but everyone needs to
be on board, otherwise it won'twork.
(10:41):
For Capital Recruit, as we weregrowing, we realised that we
needed to articulate what ourvalues are and why are they
important.
And then, as we grew again, afew years went by and we decided
to go back and look at ourvalues but involve the whole
team and ask them to explain arewe living the values?
(11:02):
Are the values still right aswe continue to grow?
Do we need to tweak a fewthings?
And really, what was reallyinteresting?
I think it was like 80 percentof what we already had in place.
They agreed that that's what'simportant moving forward, and we
just tweaked a few other thingsand there was one value in
there that wasn't quite clear.
So we went well, if it's notclear, are we living it, can we
(11:22):
get rid of it and replace itwith something else or just keep
it simple?
So we didn't have a long listof values of seven, seven values
or ten values it was more threeor four and then when we
celebrate and recognise ourachievements, we bring it back
to those values.
So then everyone can highlightwhen someone's doing something
(11:45):
great and how that links intoour values.
We keep bringing it back tothat.
It's also involved in ourperformance discussions and our
position descriptions and,course, our recruitment
processes.
So it's it started from the top, but then it it became everyone
.
It's everyone's thing and I'dsay there's times where people
(12:05):
might find a value not quitehitting the mark.
So we'll have someconversations about it or we'll
we'll talk about the fact thatthat behaviour doesn't align to
how we do things at CapitalRecruit.
So how do we help, support youto change that behaviour and
align better?
And that worked.
(12:26):
That was a no-surprisesapproach to it.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Now you recruit across both the public and
private sectors.
Do you see a difference in howprivate businesses approach
Employee engagement compared tothe public sector?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes, little things like the private sector provide
teabags.
We've got some governmentdepartments that still don't do
that.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Really no teabags in government departments.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
No, no.
So you know in the publicservice if there's a Christmas
party they use the social clubto fund it and have some
fundraisers through the year andthen they use that money to
fund a Christmas party, whereasin the private sector I don't
see that.
It's just provided so and youknow there might be a retreat in
the private sector.
(13:13):
I don't see that in governmentat all, um, but government's got
some really great initiatives.
Just recently I was um in onedepartment and they had a chess
club um and they had a puzzletable and they have um other
great social initiatives um thatyou could say ticks the box of
um to help that staff morale andengagement from them In
(13:37):
business.
There's all sorts.
It's vast and very different.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That's really interesting and I'm horrified to
hear that there are employersout there who aren't providing
teabags.
Yet at the same time, thepublic service, public sector,
is still a really, or isperceived to be a really,
attractive place for employees.
Is that because money trumpseverything else at the end of
the day, do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
for some people, yeah , I think so.
Maybe it's different fordifferent people.
I don't think teabags are areason to take a job or not take
a job, but money does come intoit, of course.
But you can earn good money inbusiness as well.
It's not just about you have towork for government, otherwise
you don't get a good salary.
Business provides very goodsalaries in Canberra.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Now, over the last couple of years we've seen a lot
of change in industrialrelations law.
There have been multipleamendments to the Fair Work Act
through the government's ClosingLoopholes legislation.
That's posed quite a fewchallenges for employers to keep
up with.
How important do you think itis for employers to make sure
they're meeting all their legalobligations?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's very important.
So, being involved with people,like with the Canberra Business
Chamber, we keep abreast ofwhat's going on.
What are the things that weneed to maybe tweak and change?
So the right to disconnect inin business.
I see a lot of businesses willprovide a mobile phone.
(15:03):
So sending a text message tosomeone if they, they can turn
that business phone off and justdeal with it when they get into
the office or deal with it whenthey're clocking on for the day
, and so that right todisconnect is there.
It can happen and it's good atit.
But what I find it's up to theindividual as well.
An individual saying oh, I gotthis email at seven o'clock last
(15:24):
night and I responded Stopmaking that decision to respond
to that.
That can wait till the next day.
That doesn't.
That's not that urgent.
So it's employees also beingtaken on the journey too.
So businesses letting theirteam know what are some of the
workplace relations, what doesit mean for them, and how is
(15:48):
that going?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
to change the way business is done, and setting
expectations is important as aleader, right, because I imagine
that you are often dealing withadmin stuff in the evenings and
you might be flicking a fewemails out to your team.
But it's important to be clear,right, that you're not
necessarily expecting a response.
Just because you'll send anemail at seven o'clock, 10
o'clock or midnight, you're notnecessarily expecting a response
that day.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Absolutely.
And just because you callsomeone doesn't mean you expect
them to answer the phone.
I'm talking about during theday, but one of the things that
I do, I'll be thinking aboutstuff and I'll go oh, I'll just
give so-and-so a quick callabout that, and then they go.
Sorry, I didn't take your call.
I was in a meeting.
I'm like you don't need toexplain why you didn't take my
call.
It's fine, I know you're justgetting on with, because I was
running in transit between thismeeting and the next and I was
(16:34):
getting in the car and the like.
So it's about setting theexpectations that just because
you sent an email, just becauseyou made a call, doesn't mean
that it's urgent Now legalcompliance is a hassle for
people mainly because it keepschanging.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
How do you personally go about keeping on top of the
various changes to the law andpay rates and things and what
you need to know?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Being a member of the Canberra Business Chamber Tick.
So one of the things was thesuper increases.
We planned for that.
We knew that was coming and wecontinued that on.
I don't pay many people at theminimum wage.
I don't think I pay anyone theminimum wage.
I don't think I pay anyone onawards and the likes.
It's all paid above that.
But keeping a top of the newsand being part of an
(17:22):
organisation like the CanberraBusiness Chamber, making sure
you've got the knowledge comingin and actioning that.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Now you mentioned the fact that you don't necessarily
pay people in your business atminimum wage, but of course
there'll be people listening tothis perhaps in other parts of
the employment market who dokind of recruit in volume and at
the more junior end of theemployment market.
For those sorts of businesses,do you think it's important in
(17:49):
the current environment thatemployment conditions are above
and beyond the legal minimum andand how do you see that playing
out in practice across canberra?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
no, um, you're right, it's really challenging and
there's so many awards andthere's so much detail that
needs to be included in that.
Um, I find my clients that dopay that rate, um, their team
are happy to be paid or they'recontent to be paid on the
minimum wage and they appreciatethe penalty rates and the other
things that are in there.
(18:17):
So what's really important formy clients that are in that
market is they've got to gettheir pay right.
They've got to make sure thatthat's an investment of time to
get that right and making sureit's accurate to build trust
with their employees so thatthey don't need to question or
query their pay often or whenthere's a change, because
they'll know about the minimumwage going up or they'll know
(18:40):
about different changes to thelegislation or some of them.
I should say so I think thebusiness owners need to invest
the time and energy to make surethey're getting it right, just
to show their employees thatthey value the work that they're
doing.
It's important.
It's up to the the leaders tomake sure they've got that right
(19:02):
.
But let's recognise it isreally challenging.
But once you're across it, it'seasy to run with the little
changes here and there.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, and I guess I should put a plug in here for
the Chamber's Employer AssistHotline.
So if you are a member of theChamber, one of the services we
offer is an HR support service.
So if you need help trying tosort some of these issues out,
we can help you out free ofcharge as part of your
membership in many cases.
So, sarah, there's been a lotof chatter about AI over the
(19:35):
last couple of years andespecially what that might mean
for the future of employment.
Do you think that has thepotential to undermine employee
engagement and, as a leader,what are you doing about it or
what are you thinking about it?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
AI is there.
I saw some stats recently ofhow many students and young
people are using chat GPT intheir day-to-day AI is not
perfect.
Ai needs to learn and progress,and the way that it's going to
learn is by people using it.
I think AI today will be verydifferent to what it's going to
be in the future, but what'sreally key to business is still
(20:14):
it's businesses about people,and people are the assets.
So it's about being able totailor things for your clients
or your stakeholders and I don'tthink AI can necessarily do
that well or your stakeholders,and I don't think AI can
necessarily do that well.
It is worrying to see AI insome little areas.
The articles even just todaywas about recruiters using AI
(20:38):
and screening applicants out andAI having is discriminating as
well, but the AI isdiscriminating because of how
it's been taught discriminatingas well, but it's the AI is
discriminating because of howit's been taught.
So it needs to be a tool thatadds value and is part of the
process, but not everything init.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, Does it have the potential, though, to make
employees feel less valued, lessimportant, less relevant to a
business?
And are you having thoseconversations?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
with your team or with the people you're
recruiting for?
No, I'm not seeing peoplesaying I'm going to be devalued.
It's more exciting how can I bemore efficient?
How can I not have to do theboring administration or have to
do the data entry and the like?
So it's more exciting stillthey're not seeing it as a
threat.
And it's more watch this space.
I I want to learn.
I want to be part of thisjourney.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Fantastic.
Now, sarah, you've been abusiness owner for many years.
You've been a leader of peoplefor many years.
What's been your biggestlearning as a leader when it
comes to keeping teams engagedand productive?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
That's a challenging question.
What learning?
Um?
I think that you've got toindividualize it, that everyone
is different and you can't put acookie cutter approach, um, and
being agile and adjusting alongthe way.
Um, the pressures of today aredifferent to the pressures of
yesterday, so you'll need toevolve and adapt.
What you did yesterday will bedifferent to what we're going to
(22:03):
be doing in five years' time.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Good advice there.
Sarah Rajic, thank you so muchfor joining us.
This is the Canberra BusinessPodcast.
I'm Greg Harford from theCanberra Business Chamber and
I've been joined today by SarahRajic, the Managing Director of
Capital Recruit.
Don't forget that if you needworkplace relations advice, most
members of the CanberraBusiness Chamber can reach out
free to our employer assisthotline for support.
All the details are on ourwebsite at canberrabusinesscom,
(22:28):
and don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes of theCanberra Business Podcast.
I'll catch you next time.
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm talkingabout employee engagement with
Sarah Rajic, the ManagingDirector of Capital Recruit from
you guessed it right here inthe nation's capital, sarah.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Craig, look, it's great having you back.
We're having this conversationtoday because employees sit at
the heart of every successfulbusiness, and I know you have an
interesting view of employeeengagement, not only because you
run a successful business witha moderate-sized team, but also
because you're in therecruitment business and you see
firsthand the struggles thatemployers might have, and you
(00:50):
also get a sense of whatcandidates are looking for if
they want to be engaged andproductive.
So why do you think employeeengagement matters?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Oh, it's so important .
Employee engagement matters tobusiness because a happy
workplace will be a betterperforming workplace, a higher
performing workplace.
Their engagement will flow totheir lives, to their client
engagement and their thinking,their innovation, their delivery
(01:19):
and their outcomes.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
How much more productive do you think an
engaged employee is over adisengaged one?
100% more active, more higher,performing 100%, double, triple,
three times five times and howdo you kind of see that flow
through?
What does that mean in apractical sense?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
We see a higher engagement with each other, with
their colleagues, and that teammorale and that driving forward
together improves productivity.
Then their engagement withtheir clients they're more
positive and happy and able tohave real conversations with
their clients and they feeltrusted and valued from their
clients and their colleagues andthat drives performance.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
In some big corporates and in government
they're often measuring employeeengagement.
They're using big surveysinternational surveys in some
cases to test the engagementlevels of a team.
How do you do it in your firm?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah.
So we have an employeeengagement survey that we look
at every six months and we had aHR consulting company that
helped us deliver that and wethought about what the questions
were going to be and we triedto keep them the same so we
could then measure it sixmonthly and see how we've
progressed and what's going upand what's going down.
Employee engagement you don't.
(02:46):
It's really difficult to havesomeone that's 10 out of 10 and
typically you don't want someonethat's 10 out of 10.
They've got other things goingon.
Work and life integrates, butwhat's going on with someone
personally can impact theirperformance at work or their
engagement at work.
So you kind of want them to bearound that 7 and 8 because it's
(03:07):
more manageable and moresustainable than someone that's
at a 10.
And likewise, if you've got toomany people at the bottom end,
you want to work on how can weget those people up and how we
can get them at that 6, 7, 8level mark.
So we do that on a six-monthlybasis and then track it over
many years and we look at what'sgoing on in the environment,
(03:28):
what's going on in the industryand what could be impactful and
what can we do, and recognisingthat we can't do everything for
everyone.
It's about doing providing themwith opportunities to be
engaged in the environment, butrecognising that they're people
and there's stuff that goes onin people's lives and that it
(03:50):
can impact on their engagementat work.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah and a six-monthly survey sounds like a
big commitment from amanagement point of view.
How big is your team?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
At the moment it's 10 , but we've been up to as big as
24.
No, it's not at all onerous.
There's platforms and there'sconsulting firms that can help
you with it as well, but it's asurvey that takes five to ten
minutes, and then the platformsconsolidate that for you.
Now you're going to ask me whatthe platform is well, no, I was
going to say to you.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Is that something you would recommend other firms be
doing?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
um, it's a temperature check um, you know,
it's a temperature check and I'mbig on no surprises.
You should be speaking with andengaged with your staff, um,
every day, every week, every,every month, consistently, so
that they shouldn't be surprised.
But it's about giving themanother avenue to express
themselves and let you know howthey're feeling.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
On an individual level.
You know, as a leader of people, you must get a sense as to
sort of whether people areengaged or disengaged in your
firm.
How do you know if an employeeis disengaged and what should
you be doing about it as aleader?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
We don't need to know everything that's going on for
every individual in yourorganisation.
It's not possible for us to dothat.
So it's about creating anenvironment where they feel you
can engage, they can share andbe vulnerable with you, but we
don't have the expectation thatthey have to share everything.
We don't want them.
We're not ask.
I don't ask them questionsspecifically and say did you
(05:24):
stub your toe on the way to workthis morning Because you're in
a bad mood?
It's more about how are you andwhat are your plans for this
week and what are your planslonger term, but not drilling
them down and asking them toshare every detail with you.
You don't need them to.
We're all going to have gooddays and bad days, but it's
about how do we bring our bestself to the office, and you do
(05:46):
that by not feeling like you'regoing to be attacked.
You feel like you can just beyourself in the office and drive
your team performance forward.
So how do I do it?
I keep the conversation flowing.
I share, I'm vulnerable.
Greg, when I came in and metwith you this morning, I shared
that I was involved in a littleprank yesterday and that was
(06:06):
still buzzing in my mood today.
So me being vulnerable andsharing a little bit helps
others to share back with me aswell.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And if you've got someone in your team who's
really not engaged, perhaps overtime, is consistently kind of
present but not really there inthe workplace.
What are your tips for managingthose sorts of situations?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Meet with them regularly, have clear
expectations and haveconversations about how they're
going to achieve that, howthey're going with achieving
those expectations and what aresome of the barriers that you
could help them to pull down.
But yeah, it's clear.
But some people are disengagedbut they just continue and drive
forward, but it becomes reallytiresome.
(06:59):
And then you ask I ask themquestions about well, what does
the next month look like, whatdoes the next quarter look like,
or the next six months looklike, and what are their
longer-term goals as well?
So we have performance reviewsin my business too, and that
sort of thing can be addressedin that.
But once again, it's that nosurprises.
Let's keep the conversationsgoing rather than just looking
(07:23):
from a distance and judging.
It's about engaging.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Do you think a disengaged employee can ever
perform as well as an engagedemployee?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, they can for a short period, so they can fake
it for a while and just get onwith the job.
But longer term it would beit's in my view it would be
almost impossible.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So what are your key tips for driving an engaged team
culture?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, thinking about the values of your organisation
and ensuring that your team hasvalue alignment, having clear
expectations and givingrecognition and helping to drive
that forward.
Giving examples of highperformance and what it looks
like and helping people to getto that way and conversations,
(08:14):
talking and being involved.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Now you and your team in fact deal with candidates
for roles every day.
What are you hearing thatemployers sorry that employees
are looking for from employersin 2025?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
employers are sorry that employees are looking for
from employers in 2025.
Yeah, um, they're thinkingabout um, what's the role and
who are they going to be workingwith?
Is the role going to besatisfying to them?
Is it the type of work thatthey want to be doing?
Um, some of them not all willbe looking for career
progression and keeping up withthe trends and what's moving
forward.
For example, how we're usingdata in hr and how can we drive
that and do that better.
Or how are we?
(08:55):
You know, data analytics infinancial management or data
analytics in project management.
So, what are the trends andwill this role help them keep
across those trends?
Flexibility also that you knowthey can schedule for their car
to be serviced and it's okay toto take some days off to do
(09:16):
personal admin and maybe workfrom home one day a week as well
.
That seems to be quite popular.
Um, and then, when they are inthe office, having that
collaboration and having, uh,the opportunity to work with the
team.
Also, what else has been bigfor people?
I'd say that's it.
(09:40):
It's who they're going to beworking with.
What are they going to be doingand where can this, this role,
progress them to?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
and you talked a little bit about values
alignment earlier.
You know, making sure you'vegot values for your organisation
, making sure that your team'saligned with those values.
To what extent do you think thevalues are driven by the team
and vice versa?
Do you think that the Is it thejob of managers to set that
(10:12):
culture, or do you need to kindof reflect what your team is
doing?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I think it needs to be driven from the top, but then
employees are brought on boardand explained what the values
look like and giving examples ofhow that is delivered each day,
or each client interaction orcolleague interaction.
So it does need to be set fromthe top, but everyone needs to
be on board, otherwise it won'twork.
(10:41):
For Capital Recruit, as we weregrowing, we realised that we
needed to articulate what ourvalues are and why are they
important.
And then, as we grew again, afew years went by and we decided
to go back and look at ourvalues but involve the whole
team and ask them to explain arewe living the values?
(11:02):
Are the values still right aswe continue to grow?
Do we need to tweak a fewthings?
And really, what was reallyinteresting?
I think it was like 80 percentof what we already had in place.
They agreed that that's what'simportant moving forward, and we
just tweaked a few other thingsand there was one value in
there that wasn't quite clear.
So we went well, if it's notclear, are we living it, can we
(11:22):
get rid of it and replace itwith something else or just keep
it simple?
So we didn't have a long listof values of seven, seven values
or ten values it was more threeor four and then when we
celebrate and recognise ourachievements, we bring it back
to those values.
So then everyone can highlightwhen someone's doing something
(11:45):
great and how that links intoour values.
We keep bringing it back tothat.
It's also involved in ourperformance discussions and our
position descriptions and,course, our recruitment
processes.
So it's it started from the top, but then it it became everyone
.
It's everyone's thing and I'dsay there's times where people
(12:05):
might find a value not quitehitting the mark.
So we'll have someconversations about it or we'll
we'll talk about the fact thatthat behaviour doesn't align to
how we do things at CapitalRecruit.
So how do we help, support youto change that behaviour and
align better?
And that worked.
(12:26):
That was a no-surprisesapproach to it.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Now you recruit across both the public and
private sectors.
Do you see a difference in howprivate businesses approach
Employee engagement compared tothe public sector?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes, little things like the private sector provide
teabags.
We've got some governmentdepartments that still don't do
that.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Really no teabags in government departments.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
No, no.
So you know in the publicservice if there's a Christmas
party they use the social clubto fund it and have some
fundraisers through the year andthen they use that money to
fund a Christmas party, whereasin the private sector I don't
see that.
It's just provided so and youknow there might be a retreat in
the private sector.
(13:13):
I don't see that in governmentat all, um, but government's got
some really great initiatives.
Just recently I was um in onedepartment and they had a chess
club um and they had a puzzletable and they have um other
great social initiatives um thatyou could say ticks the box of
um to help that staff morale andengagement from them In
(13:37):
business.
There's all sorts.
It's vast and very different.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That's really interesting and I'm horrified to
hear that there are employersout there who aren't providing
teabags.
Yet at the same time, thepublic service, public sector,
is still a really, or isperceived to be a really,
attractive place for employees.
Is that because money trumpseverything else at the end of
the day, do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
for some people, yeah , I think so.
Maybe it's different fordifferent people.
I don't think teabags are areason to take a job or not take
a job, but money does come intoit, of course.
But you can earn good money inbusiness as well.
It's not just about you have towork for government, otherwise
you don't get a good salary.
Business provides very goodsalaries in Canberra.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Now, over the last couple of years we've seen a lot
of change in industrialrelations law.
There have been multipleamendments to the Fair Work Act
through the government's ClosingLoopholes legislation.
That's posed quite a fewchallenges for employers to keep
up with.
How important do you think itis for employers to make sure
they're meeting all their legalobligations?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's very important.
So, being involved with people,like with the Canberra Business
Chamber, we keep abreast ofwhat's going on.
What are the things that weneed to maybe tweak and change?
So the right to disconnect inin business.
I see a lot of businesses willprovide a mobile phone.
(15:03):
So sending a text message tosomeone if they, they can turn
that business phone off and justdeal with it when they get into
the office or deal with it whenthey're clocking on for the day
, and so that right todisconnect is there.
It can happen and it's good atit.
But what I find it's up to theindividual as well.
An individual saying oh, I gotthis email at seven o'clock last
(15:24):
night and I responded Stopmaking that decision to respond
to that.
That can wait till the next day.
That doesn't.
That's not that urgent.
So it's employees also beingtaken on the journey too.
So businesses letting theirteam know what are some of the
workplace relations, what doesit mean for them, and how is
(15:48):
that going?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
to change the way business is done, and setting
expectations is important as aleader, right, because I imagine
that you are often dealing withadmin stuff in the evenings and
you might be flicking a fewemails out to your team.
But it's important to be clear,right, that you're not
necessarily expecting a response.
Just because you'll send anemail at seven o'clock, 10
o'clock or midnight, you're notnecessarily expecting a response
that day.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Absolutely.
And just because you callsomeone doesn't mean you expect
them to answer the phone.
I'm talking about during theday, but one of the things that
I do, I'll be thinking aboutstuff and I'll go oh, I'll just
give so-and-so a quick callabout that, and then they go.
Sorry, I didn't take your call.
I was in a meeting.
I'm like you don't need toexplain why you didn't take my
call.
It's fine, I know you're justgetting on with, because I was
running in transit between thismeeting and the next and I was
(16:34):
getting in the car and the like.
So it's about setting theexpectations that just because
you sent an email, just becauseyou made a call, doesn't mean
that it's urgent Now legalcompliance is a hassle for
people mainly because it keepschanging.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
How do you personally go about keeping on top of the
various changes to the law andpay rates and things and what
you need to know?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Being a member of the Canberra Business Chamber Tick.
So one of the things was thesuper increases.
We planned for that.
We knew that was coming and wecontinued that on.
I don't pay many people at theminimum wage.
I don't think I pay anyone theminimum wage.
I don't think I pay anyone onawards and the likes.
It's all paid above that.
But keeping a top of the newsand being part of an
(17:22):
organisation like the CanberraBusiness Chamber, making sure
you've got the knowledge comingin and actioning that.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Now you mentioned the fact that you don't necessarily
pay people in your business atminimum wage, but of course
there'll be people listening tothis perhaps in other parts of
the employment market who dokind of recruit in volume and at
the more junior end of theemployment market.
For those sorts of businesses,do you think it's important in
(17:49):
the current environment thatemployment conditions are above
and beyond the legal minimum andand how do you see that playing
out in practice across canberra?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
no, um, you're right, it's really challenging and
there's so many awards andthere's so much detail that
needs to be included in that.
Um, I find my clients that dopay that rate, um, their team
are happy to be paid or they'recontent to be paid on the
minimum wage and they appreciatethe penalty rates and the other
things that are in there.
(18:17):
So what's really important formy clients that are in that
market is they've got to gettheir pay right.
They've got to make sure thatthat's an investment of time to
get that right and making sureit's accurate to build trust
with their employees so thatthey don't need to question or
query their pay often or whenthere's a change, because
they'll know about the minimumwage going up or they'll know
(18:40):
about different changes to thelegislation or some of them.
I should say so I think thebusiness owners need to invest
the time and energy to make surethey're getting it right, just
to show their employees thatthey value the work that they're
doing.
It's important.
It's up to the the leaders tomake sure they've got that right
(19:02):
.
But let's recognise it isreally challenging.
But once you're across it, it'seasy to run with the little
changes here and there.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, and I guess I should put a plug in here for
the Chamber's Employer AssistHotline.
So if you are a member of theChamber, one of the services we
offer is an HR support service.
So if you need help trying tosort some of these issues out,
we can help you out free ofcharge as part of your
membership in many cases.
So, sarah, there's been a lotof chatter about AI over the
(19:35):
last couple of years andespecially what that might mean
for the future of employment.
Do you think that has thepotential to undermine employee
engagement and, as a leader,what are you doing about it or
what are you thinking about it?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
AI is there.
I saw some stats recently ofhow many students and young
people are using chat GPT intheir day-to-day AI is not
perfect.
Ai needs to learn and progress,and the way that it's going to
learn is by people using it.
I think AI today will be verydifferent to what it's going to
be in the future, but what'sreally key to business is still
(20:14):
it's businesses about people,and people are the assets.
So it's about being able totailor things for your clients
or your stakeholders and I don'tthink AI can necessarily do
that well or your stakeholders,and I don't think AI can
necessarily do that well.
It is worrying to see AI insome little areas.
The articles even just todaywas about recruiters using AI
(20:38):
and screening applicants out andAI having is discriminating as
well, but the AI isdiscriminating because of how
it's been taught discriminatingas well, but it's the AI is
discriminating because of howit's been taught.
So it needs to be a tool thatadds value and is part of the
process, but not everything init.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, Does it have the potential, though, to make
employees feel less valued, lessimportant, less relevant to a
business?
And are you having thoseconversations?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
with your team or with the people you're
recruiting for?
No, I'm not seeing peoplesaying I'm going to be devalued.
It's more exciting how can I bemore efficient?
How can I not have to do theboring administration or have to
do the data entry and the like?
So it's more exciting stillthey're not seeing it as a
threat.
And it's more watch this space.
I I want to learn.
I want to be part of thisjourney.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Fantastic.
Now, sarah, you've been abusiness owner for many years.
You've been a leader of peoplefor many years.
What's been your biggestlearning as a leader when it
comes to keeping teams engagedand productive?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
That's a challenging question.
What learning?
Um?
I think that you've got toindividualize it, that everyone
is different and you can't put acookie cutter approach, um, and
being agile and adjusting alongthe way.
Um, the pressures of today aredifferent to the pressures of
yesterday, so you'll need toevolve and adapt.
What you did yesterday will bedifferent to what we're going to
(22:03):
be doing in five years' time.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Good advice there.
Sarah Rajic, thank you so muchfor joining us.
This is the Canberra BusinessPodcast.
I'm Greg Harford from theCanberra Business Chamber and
I've been joined today by SarahRajic, the Managing Director of
Capital Recruit.
Don't forget that if you needworkplace relations advice, most
members of the CanberraBusiness Chamber can reach out
free to our employer assisthotline for support.
All the details are on ourwebsite at canberrabusinesscom,
(22:28):
and don't forget to follow us onyour favourite podcast platform
for future episodes of theCanberra Business Podcast.
I'll catch you next time.
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