August 21, 2025 • 27 mins
When office buildings become more than just places to work, magic happens. That's the powerful message Tashi Dorji, head of FlexSpace at JLL Flex Solutions, brings to the Canberra Business Podcast as he unpacks the evolution of co-working spaces from simple desk rentals to vibrant communities driving innovation and connection.
Remember when "cool" offices just meant bean bags and ping pong tables? Those days are gone. Today's flexible workspaces serve as strategic assets for building owners and tenants alike, functioning as what Dorji calls a "Trojan horse for some really cool stuff" – podcast studios, media rooms, event spaces, and amenities that make commuting worthwhile. These spaces aren't just about accommodating work; they're about creating experiences that can't be replicated at home. The future of work isn't just about flexibility – it's about creating environments where meaningful connections happen naturally and people genuinely want to be.
Haven Workspaces provides a diverse array of flexible membership options tailored to suit your professional needs. Their offerings range from a prestigious business address for startups and entrepreneurs, to convenient casual access for those requiring occasional workspace, to fully-equipped private offices designed for small teams and established enterprise organisations. Whatever your working style, Haven Workspaces has the ideal solution to enhance your productivity and business image.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm joined byTashi Dorji, the host of
FlexSpace JLL Australasia, totalk about Haven Workspaces.
Tashi, welcome all the way fromSydney to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Great to have you here in Canberra.
Tell us a little bit about yourrole.
What do you do and what isHaven Workspaces?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, it's an evolving role and it started for
me almost six years ago role.
And it started for me almostsix years ago and by evolving I
mean it's kind of evolved withthe way that people work.
You know the hybrid worksituation that we have and what
Flex means for JLL and my teamis we actually help our investor
and landlord clientsspecifically design, build and
operate their own co-working andFlex spaces Because, especially
(01:01):
over the last six years, youknow the traditional lease and
office layout and floor planshave needed to adapt in response
to people's needs to work indifferent ways in their
lifestyles.
So almost a stacking plan of atraditional building used to be
like lobby amenities lease,lease, lease, lease, lease.
Now, having a floor or two ofco-working within that building
(01:23):
to offer to the tenants withinthe asset or people who are
looking for flexibility is ahuge value add for any asset
owner.
So that's what we do and we'vesuccessfully been doing it on a
partnership and white labelbasis for owners all over
Australia and even Asia.
And when I say white label,it's like it.
It's gonna be something likeHaven workspaces.
(01:45):
It's not going to be called JLLflex workspace.
You know where the enginebehind it, but the owner really
loves to brand it themselves sothey can create their own form
of loyalty and experience, bothin the look and feel of the
space but also the way that wewe've run it.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
yeah, and here in Canberra you've got one space up
on Northbourne.
Are there plans for more?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, yeah, I literally just came from the
second site, which we can'tannounce just yet, but should be
hitting the press releasebutton any moment now.
It's a sister space, notnecessarily as in the CBD, as
Haven, but it's going to be aninteresting network and dynamic
that we can create.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Fantastic.
Well, we'll look forward to theworkspace opening at the right
time.
What does your job look like ona day-to-day basis?
How does sort of managing thefit-out and operation of these
workspaces work in practice?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, I mean, my day-to-day right now is very
different to what it normally is, because we were talking
offline earlier, but I'mcurrently on paternity leave
towards the end of it, yeah,which is very exciting, but I
have to say you're on paternityleave, but here you are in
Canberra.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
How does that work?
Well, well, and congratulationsto them, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So my son's six months old now, his name's Logan
, and it was really importantfor me to take the time that JLL
generously offered, which isabout three, four months of pat
leave, but at the same timestill be present in my role,
because I can't exactlydisappear for that much of a
time, because I'll come back toa bit of a lagging.
You know, work a day or two aweek, and that was a
(03:25):
conversation with my wife whereI asked her well, not really
asked.
We had a dialogue and she wasvery supportive where she'd work
four days a week.
Give me a day where she'd takeLogan and that would allow me to
go to the office, and then I'dcobble together hours for for a
second day which has been greatbecause it's allowed me to still
stay present but be with work,but be super aware, attentive
(03:48):
with Logan and oh, like, noregrets there because it's been
testing.
Like I am very tired right nowbecause I literally have been up
since 2 am and I drove down at4.30 and I had a full day here
and I'll have to drive back, butsuper rewarding and I guess my
day in the life pre-Pat leave is.
My side of the role is veryfocused on speaking to the
(04:11):
investors and the landlordowners, which is a full-time,
very rewarding but hectic jobbecause a lot of office owners
and even hotel owners andinvestors within the space they
all realize they need to adaptand change what their buildings
look like to essentially helptheir tenants and the companies
within their buildings attracttheir talent and employees into
(04:33):
the office.
Because if they can't get themback into the office and they
all just want to work from home,well then they don't really
need that lease in that buildinganymore, do they?
And that assets valuation takesa bit of a hit.
So by providing a co-working ora flex experience within the
building that complements eventheir own tenancy upstairs, by
putting some cool stuff in there, help solve that piece of the
(04:53):
puzzle.
So conversations with theowners there and then speaking
internally to the jll designteam, the build team, the
property asset management team,even working with the leasing
agents to fill it um, we createsomething bespoke for the owner
and also the the target audiencethat they're looking.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So is that working as a way of getting people back
into the office?
Are people keen to come in andexplore the co-working options?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, it's almost like, if you really want to look
at it from a and I'll speakfrom the perspective of an asset
owner.
So let's pretend you own abuilding.
You've decided to put co-workingin there to try and help this
office dichotomy and dilemmaright now, it helps twofold.
One, they normally would onlytarget big companies signing
five, ten year leases withintheir building, because that's
(05:39):
traditional office right.
Suddenly they get to open up anet to lots of small to medium
sized businesses, even smallheadcount consultancy agencies
or even sole consultants, whichis great because if they nurture
them and they provide a safespace for them to grow and work,
they could grow and take upmore space further down the
track.
So it suddenly opens up a wholenew customer demographic which
(06:00):
again is a whole different canof worms, which is why they like
to work with a co-workingoperator or a partner.
But secondly, you know, signingthose leases upstairs in the
building, you might have a bigcompany renewing or looking at
the building going oh, we maynot need three floors anymore,
we may only need two, two and ahalf, but we may need the three.
We're in this gray area rightnow where we haven't exactly
(06:22):
figured out what our officestrategy is how can you help us
so they have the confidence tothen sign that lease and take
that full tenure because theyknow there's a floor or two of
flexibility and co-working spacedownstairs that they can use?
And I guess the third pointwhich I shouldn't have glazed
over is the co-working, and theflex is a Trojan horse for some
really cool stuff.
So it's not just about desksand flexibility.
(06:44):
We also strategically putthoughtful amenities in there
that we think the tenants andthe surrounding demographic will
enjoy.
Funnily enough, one's a podcaststudio which we're speaking
into right now.
Yeah, because just imagine ifyou've got a building with, like
you know, 100 companies youknow, maybe not 100, but like 20
companies who all want to getinto podcasts but they don't
have the setup nor the expertisefor it to live within.
(07:06):
The co-working space and serviceis excellent, but we found,
like things, event spaces thatyou can't put within your own
tenancy.
Obviously, bookable meetingrooms are always healthy, but
media rooms have been, I find,quite attractive right now.
So what happens beyond thepodcast?
How cool would it be if you'retrying to create corporate
(07:27):
content, if you're trying tocreate content for your business
or even for your personal brand, suddenly there's a room that
has a podcast studio in there,but it also has cameras set up.
It's got um, it's structured ina way where they tell you where
to sit with the lighting, youhave a green screen behind you
or you have a brick wall there.
It makes it easy just to dothat stuff, whereas if you
didn't have access to somethinglike that, there's just so many
(07:51):
obstacles to just doing it justshooting content, right, so so
things like that like, how do weput all of these different
amenities and experiences inthere that kind of make it worth
coming to work as well?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
yeah, so that's, that's a really exciting concept
.
I mean, what other, what othersort of practical things are you
saying?
I mean, we're talking about farmore than sort of slides and
beanbags, right?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
yeah, yeah, like I mean, once upon a time you know
you'd and this was back in thedays where we work was running
rampant and everyone kind ofexperienced the space.
You used to just see ping pongtables and beer taps and
beanbags and that was that right, and it was like, oh, that's
really cool.
I think, funnily enough, beyondthe physical space, something
(08:36):
that has been very attractive togetting people into the office
is what is the communitycalendar and activations program
meaning?
Within some of the malleablespaces of that floor plan,
within the co-working space,what's going on?
And it's not, oh, we're servingbreakfast or networking drinks.
Like, is there a wellness themethat could really be pulled on
(08:56):
within that area, because thatdemographic of people really
value that kind of stuff.
You know whether it could besomething as basic as a yoga
class or actually a breathingclass.
You know talking about how youcan harness your breathing.
Could it be moretech-orientated content?
You know artificialintelligence classes, all that
kind of stuff.
A lot of the time what we do iswe poll who's in the space, who
(09:19):
wants to use the space, whatkind of stuff are you interested
in, and then bring in an expertto facilitate something for
them, and then that way peoplewho come to those events meet
like-minded people and then itbecomes really a community play.
I'm a big believer that spaceis a vehicle for the human
interaction at the end of theday, not just work.
And if you can really make thatwork, then that's a plus.
(09:42):
Low-hanging fruit is put in areally good work cafe in there
so people can kind of hear thecoffee beans being ground, get a
coffee and have conversationswith people too.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And you've got to have decent coffee, right.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah, of course .
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So what kind of tenants or businesses are
choosing co-working spaces?
Is there a change in whatyou're seeing?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, traditionally itwould be very focused on
start-ups you, you know, momsand dad, companies who would
work from home, which is why thefloor plan demographic, call it
, five, ten years ago waslargely open plan desk settings,
you know, just like lots ofdesks scattered everywhere.
But we've definitely seen amuch higher uptake of enterprise
(10:27):
companies and clients wantingaccess to flexibility, higher
uptake of enterprise companiesand clients wanting access to
flexibility.
So that floor plan has changedslightly where you still get the
open plan desks, but you'reseeing more and more like
private offices, project spaces,all those kind of things.
So there's an element ofcontrol and security within
there.
That's definitely beensomething.
We run some spaces acrossaustralia as the jl flex team
(10:47):
where it's specificallytargeting certain industries and
companies based off what theowners wanted the owner of that
building, like medtech andbiotech.
So having collaborative spacesis really important for them.
I think there's a hugeopportunity for future spaces
whoever's listening that'sthinking of getting into
co-working or looking for themfor niche operations and spaces
(11:07):
to emerge.
So, rather than just have anyonewho's looking for flexibility
come and use it, what does itlook like if it's a small
co-working space specificallytargeting creatives or law firms
or technology, because then youreally can tailor the product
mix and the layout of that spaceand even how you communicate in
there to that industry and youget this really cool collective
(11:29):
and melting pot of conversationsand ideas and support.
Not to say that the moregeneralized, flexible workspaces
don't work they absolutely do,but I think, especially in a
world with artificialintelligence and stuff like that
, I feel like people will createlike crave, familiarity and
connection.
So I think that's a good way todo it.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, and I think we saw a lot of that coming out of
COVID right.
As lockdowns ended, people weredesperate to sort of re-engage
physically and reconnect witheach other, and so it's
obviously kind of a key part ofthe human psyche and it sounds
like a co-working space is agood way you can kind of
facilitate that communityengagement?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Oh for sure, because even before JLL and a few other
roles, I actually started abusiness for about six years
that was called TwoSpace andthat turned restaurants that
were closed during the day intoco-working spaces.
And we found funnily enough,you know it was a sharing
economy play because theserestaurants were paying rent
full-time but they were onlyopening it for dinner.
(12:25):
So what happens if we activateit during the day with wi-Fi?
With our technology partner atthe time, optus, we found that
out of our 10,000 plus membersthat we eclipsed to like, over
60% of them either had a homeoffice or were already working
in an office, which totally blewmy mind, that's weird.
Yeah, because I was like thattotally blew my mind because I
(12:46):
thought the vision at the startand the problem we were solving
is people who didn't have accessto office space, affordable
office space and we could chargecheap as chips because we
weren't paying a lease it wassharing with the restaurateur at
the time and then hotels.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
So the fact and this was you know eight years ago.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
So old life.
But the fact that majority ofour users were people who
already had access to aworkspace showed us that we were
never a space solution.
We were a community play becausewhen we asked them why, it's
because they just wanted thatfirst of all, they would think
differently in different spaces.
So they loved the idea of beingin a creative space and,
(13:24):
funnily enough, restaurants.
Just in general, the fit-out isvery different to an office, so
it just made them thinkdifferent and then just being
able to access lots of differentpeople um outside of their own
office hours was justfascinating for them.
So that's a bit of a nod towhat happened, because this all
happened pre-covid um, which isone of the reasons why that kind
of startup went scaled andfailed um, and it's a bit of a
(13:48):
nod to what's happening now, Ithink you know yeah, absolutely,
um so so, community being kindof central to office working in
the future and and indeed to thethe future of co-working spaces
, what's what's the favoritesort of, what's your favorite
thing that you've seen comethrough in community settings?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
you've talked about yoga and all sorts of things,
but but what's what?
What's the thing that reallyexcites you?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
ah, like, okay, there's.
I'll answer this in two parts.
The first one is I always getsuper excited when something
comes out of a connection andand what I specifically mean and
it's this happened to us a fewtimes, both in jll spaces and
also in my previous life withthe two-space idea when two
people meet and start a businessand then that business thrives
(14:36):
and grows and then creates itsown ecosystem, hits, valuation,
hires, more people.
I think that is what it's allabout, a big part of it, because
, again, the space isfacilitating that form of human
interaction.
They're like-minded Many timeswhere a salesperson would meet a
tech person or, you know, amarketing person and then they
(14:57):
would collaborate in a way thatthey would then go on and to
create something, and that thatdefinitely would happen more
often within the startupcommunity.
Within you know that targetdemographic and the consultants
out there, and it doesn't meanyou have to go start the next.
You know SpaceX or Tesla orwhatever.
It could just be potentiallytwo consultants that have two
different skill sets, meeting,realizing they have a similar
(15:20):
clientele and then combiningtheir value proposition into a
combined package that they canboth, you know, present on the
side as well, and then you know,I think that kind of
collaboration is always a hugewin.
The second part of that answer,I guess for me, when I always
see community activations, is Ireally like culture and art
(15:43):
activation stuff.
So I feel like wellness, yes,is really important, but that we
can all agree, has been reallydone to death.
I feel, like within office,like wellness is something where
the activations has really hitthe market.
You've got your gyms, you'vegot your coal plungers, your
saunas, your yoga studios, andit's all positive because people
use them and offices leanedinto it, put that in buildings.
(16:05):
But I think one thing that'smissing is what about music?
What about art?
What about these other culturesthat have huge communities
behind them that could come intothe space?
And one really good example isthere's a platform out there
called SpaceNow.
They specialize in adouble-sided marketplace where
they have access to thosecommunities of artists and
musicians.
So if you've got dead spacewithin your co-working space or
(16:27):
an event space or even youroffice, rather than just host an
event they might get oh, anartist is going to go showcase
their art within the space.
Bring all of their people tocome check it out.
But you can also ask yourtenants to come down and check
out the art, maybe purchasesomething, and then you've got
something that brings a vibe toit.
It doesn't feel artificial orforced.
Those are the kind of thingsthat I think is really cool, and
(16:48):
I hope to see more of it happenin the future.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So that, I think, is really cool and I hope to see
more of it happen in the future.
So how do you go aboutdesigning that community and
culture experience into theco-working space and into the
strategy.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It's hard, it doesn't happen day one.
It's almost like you've got totest.
It's like almost A-B testing,even if you're starting a
business or anything, or intechnology there's a term called
a b testing.
We just test, test, test.
You have a general idea whenyou first open the space of what
your target demographic of userwould enjoy.
(17:22):
Because more often than notwhen you open a co-working
business for the first time, youmay pre-market it for a three
to six month period and you mayopen at call a 30 occupancy, so
it's not completely full.
It opens at about third full,which is really important from a
business perspective becausethen it's covering staff costs,
operating costs and everythingyou can't open empty and then
(17:43):
normally it ramps up in a six totwelve month period to 80 85
occupancy, right.
So it's almost like that firstyear when you're onboarding
members and more people arejoining.
You've got this ability to testdifferent events, different
activities, different, you know,lean into different arts and
cultures.
I think the key is reallyspeaking and asking the people.
(18:03):
I think you know not justsurveys, but having your people
on site within the co-workingspace.
Have a dialogue with every.
Everyone is overlooked andreally important Just be human.
It's funny, right, likesometimes we get so caught up in
all the detail.
It's like just have aconversation, you know, just be
a human being, and I thinkthat's a big part of it.
(18:23):
Like having a really goodon-site community manager, which
every site should have, thatbelieves in community, fosters
it and figures out how to kindof grow with the community.
That's literally growing as thespace continues to operate.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And do you see differences between co-working
spaces here in Canberra versusthe rest of the country?
Are we all very similar in muchof a muchness, or are there
different drivers and differentcapitals all?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
very similar and much of a muchness, or are they
different drivers and differentcapitals?
You know the back of house islargely similar, meaning you
know most spaces use the sametechnology, the booking
platforms.
You know for a co-workingbusiness to largely stack up
from a fiscal and a financialperspective.
You need your private offices,you need your open plan desks,
you need your meeting spaces,you need to monetize them.
So I would call that almost 60of the nla of any co-working
(19:13):
space is going to be verysimilar.
You might have different sizedoffices and everything.
It's that 40 that changes fromnot just state to state but from
suburb to cbd, because it'sliterally you you almost have to
do and there's digitalplatforms out there that can
help you to even like helps, mapout social media profiles of
(19:34):
all the individuals that walkinto that building.
What do those people want andwhat do we put in there.
So if you take away the 60,which is all the back of hard
stuff, it's almost like arestaurant, like most
restaurants back of house, same.
You've got your cooking stuffand everything the front of
house.
Okay, you've got your concierge.
What kind of amenities wouldthey prefer?
(19:55):
Would this particular areareally enjoy a very healthy
front of house collaborativearea where people can have
informal meetings and just havea chat, and there's a kiosk
barista on par there.
Would this particular spacebecause it's got a lot of
creatives in there you know,artists, whether it be musicians
(20:16):
or drawers or whatever, or even, you know, writers.
Would they like some sort ofquirky-looking corner where I've
seen some really great spacesdo it effectively, and I'm
probably going to butcher theway I describe it, but it's
literally a corner where there'slots of cushions and it's a
blue room and they can kind ofsit there and just work on your
laptop and it just challengesyou to think.
(20:36):
Different law firm spaces thatwe've looked at you know how,
about a library space?
They're not physically alibrary, but it's tech free,
it's quiet, looks a bitdifferent from the rest of space
.
Go work there.
So I'd say, you know, it's notjust a state thing, it's.
It's really who's your targetaudience and how do you do it
(20:56):
what's the biggest challenge indesigning and operating a
co-working space?
I'd say and this is this is onefor everyone balancing the cool
stuff, the amenity, with thefinancial expectation and reward
.
So in my job, when I do this onbehalf of an investor and owner
and this is getting better theywant to have their cake and eat
(21:18):
it too.
It's like give me the coolestco-working space.
You can Very generous onamenities and everything, oh,
but you still have to make morethan a market rent and that
means you have to sell X amountof offices and desks and meeting
spaces at a certain rate toachieve that rent.
After you take away youroperating costs and your staff
costs, marketing, all that kindof stuff, fees.
That balance is probably thehardest thing, I think, when you
(21:40):
, when you're designing it,because it directly correlates
and translates into what thefloor plan looks like.
We need more offices to getmore money.
We need less offices becausethere's not enough amenity,
because on a spreadsheet it maylook very profitable but in
reality if that floor plan ofthat flex space or co-working
space is only desks and an antfarm of them, you hypothetically
(22:04):
could fill it, but you probablywon't you know, because what
are they buying aside from adesk?
Where's the experience?
You know even the customerjourney when you walk through
that floor plan.
Is anyone going to enjoyfeeling like they're Pac-Man
right now?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So Tashi is co-working the future of work,
or is it just part of the?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
future of work.
I definitely think it's part ofit.
I don't think it's completelythe future because even when I
think about how office buildingsare valued, a lot of it is
attached not to flexibility, but, you know, reliable rental
income that you can lock in forfive, 10 years at a time.
So it suddenly becomes veryscary if all of the office space
(22:44):
on the market people could justdecide they do not want.
On a whimsical note, right,because it's on a flexible six
to 12 month license or month tomonth.
I do think it's part of theequation for sure, because it
just gives large companies theconfidence to lock in an office
strategy, whether it's fiveyears or 10 years.
(23:05):
I mean, no one knows what'sgoing to happen in five years or
10 years, so it's all crystalballing.
But being able to have yourtraditional office strategy
complemented and almost safetynetted by access to flexibility
and co-working, I think that'sthe real future.
So what does that mean from adesign and an experience angle?
(23:26):
It just means that I feel likealmost every building you know
there's going to be some form offlex offering provided.
And this is where the funnything that I always find the
definition of co-working andflex, I feel like is going to
part ways in the near future andalready is happening.
Co-working, I think, is yourvery traditional.
You know your WeWork, your IWG,your large, very desk-heavy
(24:02):
layouts, which is essentiallyrun as a business right where
you re-rent a lot of desks.
I think that's going to beco-working moving forward.
And flex space is going to be anew term, owned and like the
ownership of that term is goingto be taken by landlords and
office owners, because itdoesn't have to be co-working
that they provide to provideflexibility in their building.
It could just be third spaceamenities, you know, bookable
event spaces, meeting rooms,podcast studios or media rooms
(24:27):
all of that kind of stuff wetalked about, but cobbled
together and designed in athoughtful manner where it
doesn't need the 200 desks thatnormally comes attached with
those amenities to run aprofitable business.
I feel like owners are going tostart realizing having flexible
amenities like that is going tobe a big part of their office
footprint and future.
Also because, from a practicalsense, if you just put
(24:50):
co-working in every singlebuilding, you know all those
businesses are going to becompeting with one another and
cannibalizing each other'sbusiness and no one's really
going to be running a profitableco-working space anymore.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Well, we'll watch and see what the future holds, but
for now, just to kind of closeoff this conversation, tashi
co-working includes, but is notlimited to, hot desking.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Who would you most want to hot desk next?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
to for a day.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
You know that's a very unexpected, funny but great
question, because now you'vegot my noggin working.
You know what Really reallyrandom thought I'd love to hot
desk next to quentin tarantino,the the film director, and just
and just let him talk my ear offabout you know what his last
(25:44):
movie project's gonna be, orwhat his director experience has
been throughout?
Yeah, and the reason for thatand it may not have to be him I
just really admire people whoare shamelessly themselves and
lean into whatever they're goodat and express themselves in a
in a way that they've found thatyou know can be beneficial to
society, whether it'sentertainment or whatever or
(26:05):
work, and then just do it.
So I would thoroughly enjoy that.
So I think I'd hot this next tohim at random and that could be
really inspirational for yournext co-working space.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I guess too.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, it could going space for film directors, up and
coming film directors and havelots of media studios there for
sure absolutely well, look.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Thank you so much, uh , for taking uh the time to
speak to us and for taking timeout of your parental leave.
I know, um, you're busy at themoment looking after a
six-month-old, so I reallyappreciate you popping down to
Canberra and having a chat to ustoday.
I've been talking to TashiDorji, the head of FlexSpace JLL
Australasia, about HavenWorkspaces, co-working spaces
(26:47):
and the future of work.
Drive carefully back to Logan,back to Sydney, and catch us
next time on the CanberraBusiness Podcast for future
episodes.
I'm Greg Harper from theCanberra Business Team, but
we'll talk to you soon.
Cheers, thanks.
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast.
I'm Greg Harford, your hostfrom the Canberra Business
Chamber, and today I'm joined byTashi Dorji, the host of
FlexSpace JLL Australasia, totalk about Haven Workspaces.
Tashi, welcome all the way fromSydney to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Great to have you here in Canberra.
Tell us a little bit about yourrole.
What do you do and what isHaven Workspaces?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, it's an evolving role and it started for
me almost six years ago role.
And it started for me almostsix years ago and by evolving I
mean it's kind of evolved withthe way that people work.
You know the hybrid worksituation that we have and what
Flex means for JLL and my teamis we actually help our investor
and landlord clientsspecifically design, build and
operate their own co-working andFlex spaces Because, especially
(01:01):
over the last six years, youknow the traditional lease and
office layout and floor planshave needed to adapt in response
to people's needs to work indifferent ways in their
lifestyles.
So almost a stacking plan of atraditional building used to be
like lobby amenities lease,lease, lease, lease, lease.
Now, having a floor or two ofco-working within that building
(01:23):
to offer to the tenants withinthe asset or people who are
looking for flexibility is ahuge value add for any asset
owner.
So that's what we do and we'vesuccessfully been doing it on a
partnership and white labelbasis for owners all over
Australia and even Asia.
And when I say white label,it's like it.
It's gonna be something likeHaven workspaces.
(01:45):
It's not going to be called JLLflex workspace.
You know where the enginebehind it, but the owner really
loves to brand it themselves sothey can create their own form
of loyalty and experience, bothin the look and feel of the
space but also the way that wewe've run it.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
yeah, and here in Canberra you've got one space up
on Northbourne.
Are there plans for more?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, yeah, I literally just came from the
second site, which we can'tannounce just yet, but should be
hitting the press releasebutton any moment now.
It's a sister space, notnecessarily as in the CBD, as
Haven, but it's going to be aninteresting network and dynamic
that we can create.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Fantastic.
Well, we'll look forward to theworkspace opening at the right
time.
What does your job look like ona day-to-day basis?
How does sort of managing thefit-out and operation of these
workspaces work in practice?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, I mean, my day-to-day right now is very
different to what it normally is, because we were talking
offline earlier, but I'mcurrently on paternity leave
towards the end of it, yeah,which is very exciting, but I
have to say you're on paternityleave, but here you are in
Canberra.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
How does that work?
Well, well, and congratulationsto them, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So my son's six months old now, his name's Logan
, and it was really importantfor me to take the time that JLL
generously offered, which isabout three, four months of pat
leave, but at the same timestill be present in my role,
because I can't exactlydisappear for that much of a
time, because I'll come back toa bit of a lagging.
You know, work a day or two aweek, and that was a
(03:25):
conversation with my wife whereI asked her well, not really
asked.
We had a dialogue and she wasvery supportive where she'd work
four days a week.
Give me a day where she'd takeLogan and that would allow me to
go to the office, and then I'dcobble together hours for for a
second day which has been greatbecause it's allowed me to still
stay present but be with work,but be super aware, attentive
(03:48):
with Logan and oh, like, noregrets there because it's been
testing.
Like I am very tired right nowbecause I literally have been up
since 2 am and I drove down at4.30 and I had a full day here
and I'll have to drive back, butsuper rewarding and I guess my
day in the life pre-Pat leave is.
My side of the role is veryfocused on speaking to the
(04:11):
investors and the landlordowners, which is a full-time,
very rewarding but hectic jobbecause a lot of office owners
and even hotel owners andinvestors within the space they
all realize they need to adaptand change what their buildings
look like to essentially helptheir tenants and the companies
within their buildings attracttheir talent and employees into
(04:33):
the office.
Because if they can't get themback into the office and they
all just want to work from home,well then they don't really
need that lease in that buildinganymore, do they?
And that assets valuation takesa bit of a hit.
So by providing a co-working ora flex experience within the
building that complements eventheir own tenancy upstairs, by
putting some cool stuff in there, help solve that piece of the
(04:53):
puzzle.
So conversations with theowners there and then speaking
internally to the jll designteam, the build team, the
property asset management team,even working with the leasing
agents to fill it um, we createsomething bespoke for the owner
and also the the target audiencethat they're looking.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So is that working as a way of getting people back
into the office?
Are people keen to come in andexplore the co-working options?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, it's almost like, if you really want to look
at it from a and I'll speakfrom the perspective of an asset
owner.
So let's pretend you own abuilding.
You've decided to put co-workingin there to try and help this
office dichotomy and dilemmaright now, it helps twofold.
One, they normally would onlytarget big companies signing
five, ten year leases withintheir building, because that's
(05:39):
traditional office right.
Suddenly they get to open up anet to lots of small to medium
sized businesses, even smallheadcount consultancy agencies
or even sole consultants, whichis great because if they nurture
them and they provide a safespace for them to grow and work,
they could grow and take upmore space further down the
track.
So it suddenly opens up a wholenew customer demographic which
(06:00):
again is a whole different canof worms, which is why they like
to work with a co-workingoperator or a partner.
But secondly, you know, signingthose leases upstairs in the
building, you might have a bigcompany renewing or looking at
the building going oh, we maynot need three floors anymore,
we may only need two, two and ahalf, but we may need the three.
We're in this gray area rightnow where we haven't exactly
(06:22):
figured out what our officestrategy is how can you help us
so they have the confidence tothen sign that lease and take
that full tenure because theyknow there's a floor or two of
flexibility and co-working spacedownstairs that they can use?
And I guess the third pointwhich I shouldn't have glazed
over is the co-working, and theflex is a Trojan horse for some
really cool stuff.
So it's not just about desksand flexibility.
(06:44):
We also strategically putthoughtful amenities in there
that we think the tenants andthe surrounding demographic will
enjoy.
Funnily enough, one's a podcaststudio which we're speaking
into right now.
Yeah, because just imagine ifyou've got a building with, like
you know, 100 companies youknow, maybe not 100, but like 20
companies who all want to getinto podcasts but they don't
have the setup nor the expertisefor it to live within.
(07:06):
The co-working space and serviceis excellent, but we found,
like things, event spaces thatyou can't put within your own
tenancy.
Obviously, bookable meetingrooms are always healthy, but
media rooms have been, I find,quite attractive right now.
So what happens beyond thepodcast?
How cool would it be if you'retrying to create corporate
(07:27):
content, if you're trying tocreate content for your business
or even for your personal brand, suddenly there's a room that
has a podcast studio in there,but it also has cameras set up.
It's got um, it's structured ina way where they tell you where
to sit with the lighting, youhave a green screen behind you
or you have a brick wall there.
It makes it easy just to dothat stuff, whereas if you
didn't have access to somethinglike that, there's just so many
(07:51):
obstacles to just doing it justshooting content, right, so so
things like that like, how do weput all of these different
amenities and experiences inthere that kind of make it worth
coming to work as well?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
yeah, so that's, that's a really exciting concept
.
I mean, what other, what othersort of practical things are you
saying?
I mean, we're talking about farmore than sort of slides and
beanbags, right?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
yeah, yeah, like I mean, once upon a time you know
you'd and this was back in thedays where we work was running
rampant and everyone kind ofexperienced the space.
You used to just see ping pongtables and beer taps and
beanbags and that was that right, and it was like, oh, that's
really cool.
I think, funnily enough, beyondthe physical space, something
(08:36):
that has been very attractive togetting people into the office
is what is the communitycalendar and activations program
meaning?
Within some of the malleablespaces of that floor plan,
within the co-working space,what's going on?
And it's not, oh, we're servingbreakfast or networking drinks.
Like, is there a wellness themethat could really be pulled on
(08:56):
within that area, because thatdemographic of people really
value that kind of stuff.
You know whether it could besomething as basic as a yoga
class or actually a breathingclass.
You know talking about how youcan harness your breathing.
Could it be moretech-orientated content?
You know artificialintelligence classes, all that
kind of stuff.
A lot of the time what we do iswe poll who's in the space, who
(09:19):
wants to use the space, whatkind of stuff are you interested
in, and then bring in an expertto facilitate something for
them, and then that way peoplewho come to those events meet
like-minded people and then itbecomes really a community play.
I'm a big believer that spaceis a vehicle for the human
interaction at the end of theday, not just work.
And if you can really make thatwork, then that's a plus.
(09:42):
Low-hanging fruit is put in areally good work cafe in there
so people can kind of hear thecoffee beans being ground, get a
coffee and have conversationswith people too.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And you've got to have decent coffee, right.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah, of course .
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So what kind of tenants or businesses are
choosing co-working spaces?
Is there a change in whatyou're seeing?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, traditionally itwould be very focused on
start-ups you, you know, momsand dad, companies who would
work from home, which is why thefloor plan demographic, call it
, five, ten years ago waslargely open plan desk settings,
you know, just like lots ofdesks scattered everywhere.
But we've definitely seen amuch higher uptake of enterprise
(10:27):
companies and clients wantingaccess to flexibility, higher
uptake of enterprise companiesand clients wanting access to
flexibility.
So that floor plan has changedslightly where you still get the
open plan desks, but you'reseeing more and more like
private offices, project spaces,all those kind of things.
So there's an element ofcontrol and security within
there.
That's definitely beensomething.
We run some spaces acrossaustralia as the jl flex team
(10:47):
where it's specificallytargeting certain industries and
companies based off what theowners wanted the owner of that
building, like medtech andbiotech.
So having collaborative spacesis really important for them.
I think there's a hugeopportunity for future spaces
whoever's listening that'sthinking of getting into
co-working or looking for themfor niche operations and spaces
(11:07):
to emerge.
So, rather than just have anyonewho's looking for flexibility
come and use it, what does itlook like if it's a small
co-working space specificallytargeting creatives or law firms
or technology, because then youreally can tailor the product
mix and the layout of that spaceand even how you communicate in
there to that industry and youget this really cool collective
(11:29):
and melting pot of conversationsand ideas and support.
Not to say that the moregeneralized, flexible workspaces
don't work they absolutely do,but I think, especially in a
world with artificialintelligence and stuff like that
, I feel like people will createlike crave, familiarity and
connection.
So I think that's a good way todo it.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, and I think we saw a lot of that coming out of
COVID right.
As lockdowns ended, people weredesperate to sort of re-engage
physically and reconnect witheach other, and so it's
obviously kind of a key part ofthe human psyche and it sounds
like a co-working space is agood way you can kind of
facilitate that communityengagement?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Oh for sure, because even before JLL and a few other
roles, I actually started abusiness for about six years
that was called TwoSpace andthat turned restaurants that
were closed during the day intoco-working spaces.
And we found funnily enough,you know it was a sharing
economy play because theserestaurants were paying rent
full-time but they were onlyopening it for dinner.
(12:25):
So what happens if we activateit during the day with wi-Fi?
With our technology partner atthe time, optus, we found that
out of our 10,000 plus membersthat we eclipsed to like, over
60% of them either had a homeoffice or were already working
in an office, which totally blewmy mind, that's weird.
Yeah, because I was like thattotally blew my mind because I
(12:46):
thought the vision at the startand the problem we were solving
is people who didn't have accessto office space, affordable
office space and we could chargecheap as chips because we
weren't paying a lease it wassharing with the restaurateur at
the time and then hotels.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
So the fact and this was you know eight years ago.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
So old life.
But the fact that majority ofour users were people who
already had access to aworkspace showed us that we were
never a space solution.
We were a community play becausewhen we asked them why, it's
because they just wanted thatfirst of all, they would think
differently in different spaces.
So they loved the idea of beingin a creative space and,
(13:24):
funnily enough, restaurants.
Just in general, the fit-out isvery different to an office, so
it just made them thinkdifferent and then just being
able to access lots of differentpeople um outside of their own
office hours was justfascinating for them.
So that's a bit of a nod towhat happened, because this all
happened pre-covid um, which isone of the reasons why that kind
of startup went scaled andfailed um, and it's a bit of a
(13:48):
nod to what's happening now, Ithink you know yeah, absolutely,
um so so, community being kindof central to office working in
the future and and indeed to thethe future of co-working spaces
, what's what's the favoritesort of, what's your favorite
thing that you've seen comethrough in community settings?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
you've talked about yoga and all sorts of things,
but but what's what?
What's the thing that reallyexcites you?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
ah, like, okay, there's.
I'll answer this in two parts.
The first one is I always getsuper excited when something
comes out of a connection andand what I specifically mean and
it's this happened to us a fewtimes, both in jll spaces and
also in my previous life withthe two-space idea when two
people meet and start a businessand then that business thrives
(14:36):
and grows and then creates itsown ecosystem, hits, valuation,
hires, more people.
I think that is what it's allabout, a big part of it, because
, again, the space isfacilitating that form of human
interaction.
They're like-minded Many timeswhere a salesperson would meet a
tech person or, you know, amarketing person and then they
(14:57):
would collaborate in a way thatthey would then go on and to
create something, and that thatdefinitely would happen more
often within the startupcommunity.
Within you know that targetdemographic and the consultants
out there, and it doesn't meanyou have to go start the next.
You know SpaceX or Tesla orwhatever.
It could just be potentiallytwo consultants that have two
different skill sets, meeting,realizing they have a similar
(15:20):
clientele and then combiningtheir value proposition into a
combined package that they canboth, you know, present on the
side as well, and then you know,I think that kind of
collaboration is always a hugewin.
The second part of that answer,I guess for me, when I always
see community activations, is Ireally like culture and art
(15:43):
activation stuff.
So I feel like wellness, yes,is really important, but that we
can all agree, has been reallydone to death.
I feel, like within office,like wellness is something where
the activations has really hitthe market.
You've got your gyms, you'vegot your coal plungers, your
saunas, your yoga studios, andit's all positive because people
use them and offices leanedinto it, put that in buildings.
(16:05):
But I think one thing that'smissing is what about music?
What about art?
What about these other culturesthat have huge communities
behind them that could come intothe space?
And one really good example isthere's a platform out there
called SpaceNow.
They specialize in adouble-sided marketplace where
they have access to thosecommunities of artists and
musicians.
So if you've got dead spacewithin your co-working space or
(16:27):
an event space or even youroffice, rather than just host an
event they might get oh, anartist is going to go showcase
their art within the space.
Bring all of their people tocome check it out.
But you can also ask yourtenants to come down and check
out the art, maybe purchasesomething, and then you've got
something that brings a vibe toit.
It doesn't feel artificial orforced.
Those are the kind of thingsthat I think is really cool, and
(16:48):
I hope to see more of it happenin the future.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So that, I think, is really cool and I hope to see
more of it happen in the future.
So how do you go aboutdesigning that community and
culture experience into theco-working space and into the
strategy.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It's hard, it doesn't happen day one.
It's almost like you've got totest.
It's like almost A-B testing,even if you're starting a
business or anything, or intechnology there's a term called
a b testing.
We just test, test, test.
You have a general idea whenyou first open the space of what
your target demographic of userwould enjoy.
(17:22):
Because more often than notwhen you open a co-working
business for the first time, youmay pre-market it for a three
to six month period and you mayopen at call a 30 occupancy, so
it's not completely full.
It opens at about third full,which is really important from a
business perspective becausethen it's covering staff costs,
operating costs and everythingyou can't open empty and then
(17:43):
normally it ramps up in a six totwelve month period to 80 85
occupancy, right.
So it's almost like that firstyear when you're onboarding
members and more people arejoining.
You've got this ability to testdifferent events, different
activities, different, you know,lean into different arts and
cultures.
I think the key is reallyspeaking and asking the people.
(18:03):
I think you know not justsurveys, but having your people
on site within the co-workingspace.
Have a dialogue with every.
Everyone is overlooked andreally important Just be human.
It's funny, right, likesometimes we get so caught up in
all the detail.
It's like just have aconversation, you know, just be
a human being, and I thinkthat's a big part of it.
(18:23):
Like having a really goodon-site community manager, which
every site should have, thatbelieves in community, fosters
it and figures out how to kindof grow with the community.
That's literally growing as thespace continues to operate.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And do you see differences between co-working
spaces here in Canberra versusthe rest of the country?
Are we all very similar in muchof a muchness, or are there
different drivers and differentcapitals all?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
very similar and much of a muchness, or are they
different drivers and differentcapitals?
You know the back of house islargely similar, meaning you
know most spaces use the sametechnology, the booking
platforms.
You know for a co-workingbusiness to largely stack up
from a fiscal and a financialperspective.
You need your private offices,you need your open plan desks,
you need your meeting spaces,you need to monetize them.
So I would call that almost 60of the nla of any co-working
(19:13):
space is going to be verysimilar.
You might have different sizedoffices and everything.
It's that 40 that changes fromnot just state to state but from
suburb to cbd, because it'sliterally you you almost have to
do and there's digitalplatforms out there that can
help you to even like helps, mapout social media profiles of
(19:34):
all the individuals that walkinto that building.
What do those people want andwhat do we put in there.
So if you take away the 60,which is all the back of hard
stuff, it's almost like arestaurant, like most
restaurants back of house, same.
You've got your cooking stuffand everything the front of
house.
Okay, you've got your concierge.
What kind of amenities wouldthey prefer?
(19:55):
Would this particular areareally enjoy a very healthy
front of house collaborativearea where people can have
informal meetings and just havea chat, and there's a kiosk
barista on par there.
Would this particular spacebecause it's got a lot of
creatives in there you know,artists, whether it be musicians
(20:16):
or drawers or whatever, or even, you know, writers.
Would they like some sort ofquirky-looking corner where I've
seen some really great spacesdo it effectively, and I'm
probably going to butcher theway I describe it, but it's
literally a corner where there'slots of cushions and it's a
blue room and they can kind ofsit there and just work on your
laptop and it just challengesyou to think.
(20:36):
Different law firm spaces thatwe've looked at you know how,
about a library space?
They're not physically alibrary, but it's tech free,
it's quiet, looks a bitdifferent from the rest of space
.
Go work there.
So I'd say, you know, it's notjust a state thing, it's.
It's really who's your targetaudience and how do you do it
(20:56):
what's the biggest challenge indesigning and operating a
co-working space?
I'd say and this is this is onefor everyone balancing the cool
stuff, the amenity, with thefinancial expectation and reward
.
So in my job, when I do this onbehalf of an investor and owner
and this is getting better theywant to have their cake and eat
(21:18):
it too.
It's like give me the coolestco-working space.
You can Very generous onamenities and everything, oh,
but you still have to make morethan a market rent and that
means you have to sell X amountof offices and desks and meeting
spaces at a certain rate toachieve that rent.
After you take away youroperating costs and your staff
costs, marketing, all that kindof stuff, fees.
That balance is probably thehardest thing, I think, when you
(21:40):
, when you're designing it,because it directly correlates
and translates into what thefloor plan looks like.
We need more offices to getmore money.
We need less offices becausethere's not enough amenity,
because on a spreadsheet it maylook very profitable but in
reality if that floor plan ofthat flex space or co-working
space is only desks and an antfarm of them, you hypothetically
(22:04):
could fill it, but you probablywon't you know, because what
are they buying aside from adesk?
Where's the experience?
You know even the customerjourney when you walk through
that floor plan.
Is anyone going to enjoyfeeling like they're Pac-Man
right now?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So Tashi is co-working the future of work,
or is it just part of the?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
future of work.
I definitely think it's part ofit.
I don't think it's completelythe future because even when I
think about how office buildingsare valued, a lot of it is
attached not to flexibility, but, you know, reliable rental
income that you can lock in forfive, 10 years at a time.
So it suddenly becomes veryscary if all of the office space
(22:44):
on the market people could justdecide they do not want.
On a whimsical note, right,because it's on a flexible six
to 12 month license or month tomonth.
I do think it's part of theequation for sure, because it
just gives large companies theconfidence to lock in an office
strategy, whether it's fiveyears or 10 years.
(23:05):
I mean, no one knows what'sgoing to happen in five years or
10 years, so it's all crystalballing.
But being able to have yourtraditional office strategy
complemented and almost safetynetted by access to flexibility
and co-working, I think that'sthe real future.
So what does that mean from adesign and an experience angle?
(23:26):
It just means that I feel likealmost every building you know
there's going to be some form offlex offering provided.
And this is where the funnything that I always find the
definition of co-working andflex, I feel like is going to
part ways in the near future andalready is happening.
Co-working, I think, is yourvery traditional.
You know your WeWork, your IWG,your large, very desk-heavy
(24:02):
layouts, which is essentiallyrun as a business right where
you re-rent a lot of desks.
I think that's going to beco-working moving forward.
And flex space is going to be anew term, owned and like the
ownership of that term is goingto be taken by landlords and
office owners, because itdoesn't have to be co-working
that they provide to provideflexibility in their building.
It could just be third spaceamenities, you know, bookable
event spaces, meeting rooms,podcast studios or media rooms
(24:27):
all of that kind of stuff wetalked about, but cobbled
together and designed in athoughtful manner where it
doesn't need the 200 desks thatnormally comes attached with
those amenities to run aprofitable business.
I feel like owners are going tostart realizing having flexible
amenities like that is going tobe a big part of their office
footprint and future.
Also because, from a practicalsense, if you just put
(24:50):
co-working in every singlebuilding, you know all those
businesses are going to becompeting with one another and
cannibalizing each other'sbusiness and no one's really
going to be running a profitableco-working space anymore.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Well, we'll watch and see what the future holds, but
for now, just to kind of closeoff this conversation, tashi
co-working includes, but is notlimited to, hot desking.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Who would you most want to hot desk next?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
to for a day.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
You know that's a very unexpected, funny but great
question, because now you'vegot my noggin working.
You know what Really reallyrandom thought I'd love to hot
desk next to quentin tarantino,the the film director, and just
and just let him talk my ear offabout you know what his last
(25:44):
movie project's gonna be, orwhat his director experience has
been throughout?
Yeah, and the reason for thatand it may not have to be him I
just really admire people whoare shamelessly themselves and
lean into whatever they're goodat and express themselves in a
in a way that they've found thatyou know can be beneficial to
society, whether it'sentertainment or whatever or
(26:05):
work, and then just do it.
So I would thoroughly enjoy that.
So I think I'd hot this next tohim at random and that could be
really inspirational for yournext co-working space.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I guess too.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, it could going space for film directors, up and
coming film directors and havelots of media studios there for
sure absolutely well, look.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Thank you so much, uh , for taking uh the time to
speak to us and for taking timeout of your parental leave.
I know, um, you're busy at themoment looking after a
six-month-old, so I reallyappreciate you popping down to
Canberra and having a chat to ustoday.
I've been talking to TashiDorji, the head of FlexSpace JLL
Australasia, about HavenWorkspaces, co-working spaces
(26:47):
and the future of work.
Drive carefully back to Logan,back to Sydney, and catch us
next time on the CanberraBusiness Podcast for future
episodes.
I'm Greg Harper from theCanberra Business Team, but
we'll talk to you soon.
Cheers, thanks.
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