April 23, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode, Dr. Tina Kaczor and Dr. Leah Sherman discuss notorious cancer fakers Belle Gibson (Apple Cider Vinegar), Amanda Riley (Scamanda), and Elizabeth Finch (Anatomy of Lies). Each one created elaborate schemes that often duped even their loved ones. The hosts examine the psychological aspects behind such behavior, revealing how these individuals exploited vulnerable people’s emotions and trust. They also discuss distinguishing between factual integrative cancer care (Hello! That’s us!) and harmful misinformation (like the fakers here, for example). The episode emphasizes the need for critical evaluation of health claims, especially in the age of social media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina (00:00):
Leah, I am incredulous about these fakers and frauds in
cancer care.
Like that.
They would even go there andpretend to have cancer is mind
blowing.
Leah (00:14):
But the lengths that they go through, like pretending to
have a port and pretending to begetting, you know, like posting
pictures getting infusions, likeit's crazy.
Shaving their heads.
Tina (00:25):
Yeah, one of them, Scamanda, Amanda, when they ask
her, good friend when did youfinally realize that she was
faking, her answer was not untilshe pleaded guilty in court,
because of pictures of hergetting IVs and nurses in the
background and
Leah (00:41):
Oh, and like friends and family would take them to
treatment.
I mean, sometimes they wouldn'tlet them in.
while they were gettingtreatment, they just like drop
'em off at the, at the hospital.
But still, no, it just,
Tina (00:51):
it's diabolical.
Leah (00:53):
absolutely.
And so what we did, dearlistener, is we looked into, we
watched the stories of threepretty famous cancer fakers,
cancer frauds,
Tina (01:08):
infamous,
Leah (01:08):
infamous.
Much better.
Yes.
So they're known in, in thecancer world.
And I mean, every time I wouldthink like, oh my God, this is
like so surprising.
This is so shocking.
Then I'd watch another story andI was like, how did, what the
heck?
it just like kept like, it'scrazy.
And, and there are more peoplethan just the three that we're
(01:31):
talking about.
Um, we're gonna talk about BelleGibson, Amanda Riley, and
Elizabeth Finch.
Tina (01:38):
Apple Cider Vinegar, Scamanda, and Anatomy of Lies,
in that order,
Leah (01:42):
Yeah.
Tina (01:43):
I'm gonna say something right up front.
apple cider vinegar, I couldn'teven get through the first
episode.
Leah (01:49):
oh, I didn't either.
Um, but we both watched the 60Minutes Australia interview with
her, so.
Tina (01:56):
Yes, and I watched an actual documentary that was
separate.
'cause apple cider vinegar is adocudrama at best.
Leah (02:03):
Right.
Um, but it's, it's not even, Imean, it, it's not even a docu,
I mean, it's, it's a fictional,it's, yeah, it's a fictional
account because.
Yeah, I started looking intosome of the characters and I
realized that they were kind ofamalgams that there's this one
character Mila, and I wanted toknow more about her.
And she was, yeah.
So anyways, so yeah, we did notactually finish apple cider
(02:24):
vinegar, but it makes sensebecause we were just kind of
doing more of the documentarystuff.
Tina (02:28):
Yeah, I, when I realized it was fictional, I didn't wanna
confuse my brain with fictionalaccounts and actual facts.
Leah (02:36):
Yeah, exactly..
Tina (02:36):
So I just put it aside.
Leah (02:38):
me too.
Me too.
And I probably will go back andwatch it, but I didn't wanna
confuse reality with,
Tina (02:44):
Oh, that's funny.
We did the same thing.
We both did it for the same
Leah (02:47):
yeah, no, I just didn't want to onfuse reality with
fiction, but the whole thing islike fictitious.
Tina (02:54):
You would think that all of it is fiction, but it
actually happened.
All these people did justoutrageously devious,
fraudulent.
Fake cancers for their ownbenefit.
Leah (03:07):
Okay, so before we get into if you like listening to
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Yeah, and we do have a membership now, so if you wanna
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(03:38):
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Yes, you may as well.
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Yeah.
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With that, let's get started
Tina (2) (03:59):
I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor, and as Leia likesto say, I'm the science y one.
Leah (04:03):
And I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman, and I'm the cancerinsider.
Tina (2) (04:07):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who
practice integrative cancercare.
Leah (04:11):
But we're not your doctors.
Tina (2) (04:13):
This is for education, entertainment, and informational
purposes only.
Leah (04:17):
Do not apply any of this information without first
speaking to your doctor.
Tina (2) (04:22):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own.
Leah (04:28):
Welcome to the Cancer Pod.
okay, first of all, just fakingcancer in general is kind of,
Tina (04:41):
A symptom of a mental illness.
Leah (04:43):
yeah.
And so one of the things thatthey talked about in, uh, I
think a few of the, the thingsthat we watched was, factitious
disorder, which is the new namefor, um, Munchhausen.
Tina (04:54):
Yes.
Leah (04:55):
Munchausen syndrome.
And now there's something knownas Munchausen by internet, which
I'm like,
Tina (05:03):
Yes.
'cause there's always beenMunchausen by proxy
Leah (05:05):
which is when like a parent will do things to cause
like a child or a spouse, youknow,
Tina (05:11):
to be sick.
Leah (05:12):
Where one person does that to the other, and there's always
been Munchausen where a personfakes their own illness, but now
there's Munchausen by internet'cause you're bringing Instagram
and everything else into it.
Tina (05:24):
Yeah, let me just, I'm gonna read off Mayo Clinic's
website.
This link that you gave meactually in our notes.
The symptoms of fictitiousdisorder involve people trying
to look ill, making themselvesill or hurting themselves.
May also fake symptoms, makesymptoms seem worse than they
are, or pretend they can't docertain things because of their
symptoms, so they can deceiveothers.
(05:45):
People with a condition workhard to hide their lies.
It may be hard to know thattheir symptoms are part of a
serious mental health condition.
People with this disordercontinue with the lies even
without any benefit or reward,or when faced with evidence that
it doesn't support their claims.
Wow.
So it's a mental disorder.
Leah (06:02):
Yes.
And I guess on some of the, thethings that we watched, they
were kind of asking people, youknow, like, why would, why would
this happen?
Why would you do this?
And, you know, there's somethought that it might be due to
a history of neglect.
Tina (06:18):
Hmm.
Okay.
You know what?
I didn't look into anything thatwas remotely, um, empathetic
towards these characters.
I'll admit, I do realize it's amental disorder, and that's
probably as far as I need to goin my mind.
Like, okay, well there's reasonsfor that.
So I'm a little unforgivingbecause it's so hideous.
(06:38):
Their crimes.
Leah (06:39):
I'm just curious as to like, how does a person become.
Tina (06:43):
Yeah.
Leah (06:44):
Like, I mean, just faking, you know, there's always like a
hypochondriac, someone whothinks every, you know, every
little symptom they're havingis, a much bigger, um, illness
or whatever, or, you know, everysniffle sneeze is something.
but yeah, this is like nextlevel.
This is just.
Tina (07:02):
It's next level because it's not just deception, it's
exploitation.
So now they each, in, each ofthese in some way, they're
exploiting the empathy they getfrom other people for either
professional or monetary gain.
Leah (07:17):
Right.
And that's, that's what I wasgonna say next, is that two of
them at least, were making moneyfrom.
Like directly making money.
I mean, I think Elizabeth Finchwas also making money, but that
was through her gettingemployment because of what she
was saying was going on.
Tina (07:35):
Elizabeth Finch, who was an acclaimed writer for Grey's
Anatomy, right?
She wrote.
Award-winning episodes.
That one blew my mind.
Leah (07:46):
Well, and before she wrote for Grey's Anatomy, she wrote
For True Blood, which was likeone of my favorite series.
Tina (07:52):
Oh, really?
Leah (07:53):
And then she wrote for Vampire Diaries, which I never
watch, but um, yeah, the wholeGrey's Anatomy thing.
Well, because hers was likebeyond cancer.
Like she did claim that she wasdiagnosed in like 2012 with a,
chondro sarcoma, which is.
Unusual for someone of her ageto be diagnosed with that.
And I couldn't figure out, Likeshe had, she claimed it was in
(08:16):
her leg, but then it was also inher spine.
It was, it was a little hard tofall, like for me, it was hard
to follow exactly like what herdiagnosis was.
Um, but she went beyond thecancer diagnosis.
Like she, she faked, you know,she had she had pictures of like
something covering her port, youknow, she would wear a scarf on
her head.
(08:36):
She would go to these writer'smeetings'cause she was you know,
a writer on this TV show andshe'd leave to, to get sick.
She'd, I mean it just like thatin itself was like crazy that
she was faking all that.
She also flew to was it Mayo orsomething and had someone go
with her and drop her off shewould go in and then come back
(08:57):
out.
Like she had her friend wait inthe parking lot.
I don't know.
Tina (09:00):
Yes.
Yes she did.
She had a friend from way backfrom Kansas or something, go
with her to the Mayo Clinic, butshe insisted she not come in and
when she did come in,'cause herfriend's like, well, I can't sit
here on the parking garage allday.
She kind of wandered in to be.
A good friend and go supporther, and she got livid and she
basically ripped her a new oneand then she's like, okay, okay.
(09:21):
I won't come in
Leah (09:22):
Yeah, it, but just like thinking that was faking it.
But she also faked other things.
Like she would take aspects ofother people's lives and then
adopt them and then turn thoseinto like episodes.
Yeah.
Tina (09:34):
Episode of Grey's Anatomy based on a conversation, a
private conversation withsomeone who thought she was, you
know, confiding in a good friendoh, that's craziness.
Crazy.
I.
Leah (09:45):
hers was like, I mean, they're all next level, but hers
was like beyond cancer.
Like she had the cancer.
It was her like backstory andthen she just kept going from
there.
Tina (09:56):
Yeah, the cancer diagnosis was her way to manipulate people
and to get them to look theother way and give her a lot of
grace.
Right?
Like, oh, I'm sick.
Oh, I have to go away.
Oh, and even the one whose storyshe.
Basically used to create anaward-winning episode based on
this woman's tragic events inher own life.
Even then, that person wasgiving her some grace because
(10:19):
she's like, you know this poorperson who's going through
treatment and is always sick,and it was just a way to
manipulate people.
Leah (10:26):
Yeah.
Tina (10:27):
Yeah.
That's why I call it diabolical.
There, every one of themexploited people's emotions.
Leah (10:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
well, okay, so let's, let's goback to, let's go back to the
beginning.
And the beginning isn't reallythe beginning.
'cause I'm sure there werepeople who faked cancer before
then, but the one who reallybecame renowned was Belle
Gibson.
Tina (10:47):
Belle Gibson.
Leah (10:48):
Yeah.
And so, you know, and.
With all of these, I start towonder when they talk about
like, their cancer spreading,I'm like, like, like, is that
how this cancer works?
Like,
Tina (11:01):
What do you mean
Leah (11:02):
well, like, like they, I don't know.
I, okay, so let's start withBelle Gibson.
What, what her cancer was, whatwas her, uh,
Tina (11:09):
brain?
Leah (11:10):
yeah, like a glioblastoma or
Tina (11:12):
Yes.
She claimed to have a braintumor.
And she claimed to have refusedthe conventional treatment'cause
it made her too sick.
So she turned to juicing anddiet and lifestyle to cure
herself.
That was her claim.
Leah (11:26):
Right, because she was given initially like four months
to live.
Tina (11:29):
That was her claim.
Yes.
Leah (11:31):
That was her claim.
Tina (11:31):
None of this is true.
Leah (11:33):
No, no.
Tina (11:33):
Let's remember this.
The whole episode was on fakesand frauds.
So anything we say about thesepeople is what they, what they
said.
Leah (11:39):
Right.
And I, I think a lot of ourlisteners, or you know, a fair
number of our listeners haveprobably watched Apple cider
vinegar just because it is suchan intriguing story.
Um, okay, so this is the thingwhere I thought it was.
A little off is that apparentlyin a 2014 Instagram post, um,
(12:00):
Belle had said that her cancerspread to her brain, cancer
spread to her blood, spleen,brain uterus, and liver.
Tina (12:07):
Yes, this is Anyone within oncology would recognize that
as, huh?
Leah (12:13):
Exactly.
Tina (12:14):
But a lot of time people misunderstand what's going on in
their own body or they hear itdifferently.
And so I'll be honest, Iprobably, if someone said that
to me, I'd probably think tomyself, oh, she must have had
some kind of metastatic cancerto her brain in the first place.
She probably started withanother type of cancer that had
spread to her brain in thefirst, it wasn't glioblastoma,
which would explain.
(12:35):
You know how it would spread.
'cause glioblastoma doesn'tusually leave the brain.
I mean, it would be a very, veryrare case,
Leah (12:42):
Right.
Yeah.
So, so, yeah.
But I, but I found that witheach one of them, like
Tina (12:49):
red flags.
Leah (12:50):
little red flags.
Yeah.
Which,
Tina (12:52):
But you know, the thing about red flags is that they're
so easy to see in retrospect,aren't they?
Leah (12:56):
But what I don't understand with Val Gibson, I
mean she really marketedherself.
Like she came out with a book,an app, um, she was awarded from
Cosmopolitan Magazine, like someaward,
Tina (13:10):
Yeah.
Leah (13:11):
she was on all the shows
Tina (13:13):
Yeah.
Talk about all in on a lie.
Wow.
Leah (13:16):
in a lie and like really like.
I think someone had uh, pointedout in something I was watching
about her that she really knewhow to market herself.
Tina (13:25):
Well, yeah.
And that app on Apple, I didn'trealize this, but Apple said,
we're gonna make your app thefirst Innate health app on our
new watch.
And so she, she was like really,really prominent, like crazy
prominent.
Leah (13:43):
Oh yeah.
Tina (13:44):
I think over a million followers, 2.3 million followers
or something ridiculous onInstagram.
I don't remember crazy
Speaker 3 (13:51):
stuff.
Leah (13:52):
And this is like, you know, like early Instagram,
early-ish, so.
Tina (13:55):
Yes, this was incredible.
You know, there's a Seinfeldepisode where, um, Jerry
Seinfeld's trying to figure outhow to, how to lie.
He can't lie very well.
George Costanza, his bestfriend, for those who didn't
watch the show, is a very goodliar.
And he's trying to, he's like,how do you do it?
How do you do it?
He's like, I can't impart this.
It's just, you're either goodeditor or you're not.
And then just as he's leavingthe diner, he turns around and
(14:17):
he says, remember Jerry, it'snot a lie if you believe it.
That's it.
That's like all these people Ithink are delusional.
I think they believe in someway, shape, or form in their
brains.
They believe what they'resaying, which allows them to
continue the deception.
Leah (14:32):
watching that 60 minutes interview with Bell Gibson,
like, she would not admit, shewas like so in it, she was not
going to say Yes, I lied.
I.
Tina (14:44):
No, and I, I came across some, I don't know, YouTube
thing of CIA or FBI guy sayinghow to, how to see a sociopath.
And it had to do with people nothaving lines on their face
because normal people haveexpressions.
And I kept thinking about it inthat 60 minutes interview.
I was like, look at her face.
She doesn't have a line on it.
Like there's nothing on herforehead.
(15:04):
I know she's 20 something yearsold in the video, so there's
that.
But even 20 somethings havesomething you can see that they
have had, they've hadexpressions on their face
before.
She looked like she looked likeporcelain, you know, her skin.
It was incredible.
So,
Leah (15:17):
that's'cause she was following everything in her
book, I'm
Tina (15:20):
oh, right.
That's right.
Leah (15:21):
she claimed to cure her own cancer with, she claimed she
used Gersen therapy, naturalmedicine and whole food.
And so her book was The WholePantry, which was all these
recipes on, on cooking withWhole Foods.
Tina (15:35):
Yeah, and I wanna say, you know.
It's unfortunate that thesethings happen and I, I probably
won't, I dunno if I'll everwatch apple cider vinegar.
It was really hard for me justto watch half the first episode.
But, if I ever do, it's, it'skind of a black eye on the
entire wellness industry to havethese people out there making up
stuff.
Right.
Or even an integrative oncology.
(15:57):
I mean,'cause there's plenty ofevidence-based integrative
oncology that people shouldinstitute for their own
wellbeing.
But it's hard because peoplekind of think they have to go
all in one side or the other.
Instead of saying, okay, wait,what parts of this makes sense?
What parts are evidenced?
How do I, you know, keep myimmune system as, healthy as
possible?
What diet and lifestyle actuallymakes sense?
(16:17):
So.
I just don't want people tothink that everything is a bunch
of bunk.
There is plenty of things thatpeople can do that are helpful.
Leah (16:24):
Right.
But I do think that especiallywith TikTok and Instagram reels
and all of that, you know.
With the popularity of socialmedia, I mean, the whole
wellness industry, it's, it'shard for people to know what's
for real, what isn't.
You know, there are people whoare these fruitarians, you know,
they claim to just eat likegiant bowls of fruit.
(16:44):
I think one of the influencerswho, her big thing was that she
was a fruitarian.
She died recently.
Like, I mean, they're just,anyone can claim to.
Be an expert, you know?
And, and there are people whohave had cancer, who truly had
cancer, who then go into thewellness, industry, hoping to
(17:07):
help others, but maybe don'thave the training.
So they're just like, well, thisworked for me, so it's gonna
work for you.
but not having the sciencebehind it.
So, I mean, it's just, it's,it's really hard because I think
for like the average person toknow.
Is this legit or not?
And then, you know, like as, ascancer people, like we were
(17:29):
empathetic to someone who'sgoing through what we went
through, you know, and whenthey're just posting their lives
and, you know, you just becomeso, engrossed and like, what's
going on.
because you can relate to, partsof it and then it just turns out
to be a lie.
Like, I still wanna know, like.
Okay.
So, Elizabeth Finch, her wife,who was a nurse, realized that
(17:56):
these things were fake.
I mean, besides the fact thatlike her life was being stolen
and put on, on tv, but sherealized that fiche, as they
call her, didn't have a portscar
Tina (18:08):
Yes.
And as a nurse,
Leah (18:10):
as a nurse.
Like, I mean.
Tina (18:12):
she finally realized
Leah (18:14):
She finally realized, 'cause she saw pictures of, you
know, bandages over a port,which in itself I thought was
kind of weird because you get abandage over your port when it's
first placed and then, or thisis my experience.
And then after that, you justget, um, like a bandaid, like
after your port's accessed, youjust get a bandaid.
(18:35):
You don't get like some giantthing covering it.
that's like.
You know, gauze or whatever.
you get those, what, I forgotwhat they're called.
The, is it Tega germs?
Tina (18:44):
Yeah, like a Tegaderm.
Leah (18:45):
yeah.
You can get that, but you stillsee it, you know?
So, so that in itself was like,that's how she, I mean, she
realized like, oh my God, shedoesn't, she had a port, but she
doesn't have a scar.
Tina (18:56):
and then she looked back on her postings and social
history and was like puttingdates together where fin, she
said one thing, she was supposedto be in one place and she was
in another.
Leah (19:05):
And that wasn't even cancer related,
Tina (19:06):
All I could think when her wife, who is a nurse, didn't.
Put all the pieces together.
All I could think to myself ishow love is blind, how, how much
there is a suspension ofdisbelief for that whole thing
to happen.
Leah (19:23):
Yeah, but she, she also met her wife during a very like.
Traumatic time.
I can't remember her wife'sname, but, um, they met at
Sierra Tucson, which is a rehabfacility, north of Tucson,
Arizona.
And
Tina (19:40):
It's rehab and mental health, isn't it?
You don't have to be an addictto go there.
Leah (19:43):
No, no, you, you don't, you know, because they also
treat people with eatingdisorders and trauma.
And so it was a, it was part ofa trauma group and you know, she
had, she was.
Traumatized by her husband, herthen husband, and had
disassociated.
And then I don't know if shelike, I guess self-admitted or
if someone admitted her toSierra Tucson.
(20:05):
But anyway, so she was very,very vulnerable
Tina (20:08):
yes.
Leah (20:08):
when they met.
and so I kind of give her that,you know, she wasn't in a place
she was fearing for her lifebecause of her, her then
husband, you know, just it.
Tina (20:19):
right.
Leah (20:19):
She had a lot going on.
Tina (20:21):
She had a lot going on in her, her kids were at risk of
being taken away from her andwith her very, you know, scary
looking husband, who wasabusive.
Leah (20:31):
Yeah.
Sending her threatening messagesand just really so I could see
how.
Finding someone who was veryattentive and very affectionate
and you know, everything that,you know, fiche portrayed
herself to be, just kind offalling for
Tina (20:47):
sure.
Yes.
Leah (20:48):
that they're saying.
But yeah, once your story startsbeing used as an episode, it
just, oh man,
Tina (20:56):
I, I've never watched Grey's Anatomy, which is
interesting.
I've never actually seen theshow.
Leah (21:01):
oh really?
Tina (21:02):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I know of it.
It's been around for 20 years,hasn't it?
20 plus years, but I've neveractually watched it.
Leah (21:07):
Oh, I watched it initially and then it just kind of like,
like all of those shows, it juststarts to kind of go off.
I don't know.
There was one where like one ofthe doctors, she, I don't know,
it was like, I can't evenremember what it was, but there
was one episode where I waslike, okay, it jumped the shark.
I'm done.
Like, it just was like sooutrageous.
(21:29):
But um.
I felt the same with ER was kindof that way too, where er just,
you have helicopters crashinginto hospitals, and then you
just, just, it gets a little,like,
Tina (21:39):
yeah.
Leah (21:39):
they just try to make'em next level.
Okay.
So, um,
Tina (21:43):
Speaking of taking advantage of vulnerabilities and
trust.
Can we move on to Amanda Riley,
Leah (21:49):
yeah.
So Amanda,
Tina (21:51):
Scamanda,
Leah (21:52):
She is, uh, featured in the, the series, the limited
series Scamanda.
Tina (21:58):
and the podcast, which
Leah (21:59):
Oh,
Tina (21:59):
birth to the limited series.
Leah (22:01):
that's right.
The podcast came first.
Um, she claimed to have stagefour Hodgkin's lymphoma.
the series is, well, it's likea, b, c news or something.
And so it's very, like, itrepeats itself each episode.
It's kind of.
Tina (22:15):
It's like Night Nightline 2020 where they drag it out a
bit.
Leah (22:19):
Yeah.
It didn't have to be that long.
But, um, yeah, they reallyemphasized that she was, you
know, a member of this churchand she just was deceiving, all
these people in her church.
That one woman who was like, Iwas an atheist.
And then my friend brought me tothe church and then I like, you
know, saw Amanda and her storyand.
(22:42):
Then she joins the church.
Tina (22:44):
She literally says in court when it all.
When the shit hits the fan, shesays in court, you are The
reason I first prayed to Godabout Amanda for her cancer.
That's how much empathy, shedrew out of people and how
manipulative she was withpeople's emotions Okay.
The scenes, there's scenes inthis, in this where, I know it's
(23:04):
fictitious, but it's, it's likethat's exactly what happened
where she's on stage.
There's one thing that's realwith her on stage where she says
some line that is just like, ohmy God, the level of
exploitation where she sayssomething like, and I think it's
considered her giving testimony,right?
Don't ignore Jesus because he isthere.
(23:24):
It would be something liketragic or something if he
brought you your miracle and youweren't paying attention
Leah (23:31):
Oh, they played that over and over.
Tina (23:33):
at least five times.
Leah (23:35):
Oh yeah.
Tina (23:36):
But that was basically the basis of her exploiting that
church and people were justliterally throwing money at her.
Like, okay, we'll keepsupporting you.
We'll keep supporting you.
And when they came to thechurch, the church was gonna
defend her at first because it'sludicrous to think one of their
members would fake cancer.
Leah (23:51):
Oh, and that one friend of hers had given her like tens of
thousands of dollars.
Tina (23:56):
She's the one that didn't really believe it until Amanda
pleaded guilty in court.
Leah (24:01):
Crazy, crazy.
Tina (24:04):
Okay.
Her deception and herexploitation started in 2012 and
didn't end until 2019.
She had seven years of raisingmoney.
On behalf of her care.
She, she filed bankruptcy, orshe claimed to have filed
bankruptcy, which she did.
She, she actually put thepaperwork in, which was the
mistake because her crime thatthey finally convicted her of
(24:27):
was fraud.
Leah (24:28):
Wire fraud.
Yeah.
Tina (24:30):
wire fraud and a fake bankruptcy charge.
Um, so yeah, even, even afterthey came after her for wire
fraud, she still claimed to havecancer.
And still the day after that shewas put out a, post to raise
money and awareness of aleukemia day or something.
Leah (24:46):
Oh, okay.
And so the part where, again,like I said, like they're like
little bits of their storieswhere you're just kind of like,
if you have any, you know,knowledge.
Of cancer, you're kind of like,huh, that's a little weird.
Um, that clinical trial that shewas allegedly on, like through
Columbia University, she wastold that she could self
(25:07):
administer Keytruda at home.
Tina (25:10):
Right, right.
Red flag.
Red flag.
Leah (25:14):
Red flag.
Tina (25:15):
Yeah.
Leah (25:16):
Oh my gosh.
And then like, and then thephotograph, like, like all of
the medical equipment and like,again, the photograph of like,
you know, she's got her port andyou know, she's hooked up to
oxygen or, you know, and she'sgot, um, you know, infusion.
Yeah, she, so she had a port,but then she also was getting
(25:38):
infusions in her arm.
I don't know.
I mean, the whole thing waslike.
Tina (25:42):
Yeah, and hers is, she did eventually get arrested.
And spent jail time.
Leah (25:48):
Yeah.
Tina (25:48):
gonna get out pretty soon, I think.
Um, on good behavior.
She was sentenced to a lengthyamount of time.
Leah (25:56):
60 months.
60 months.
Yeah.
Tina (25:58):
Um, her husband who clearly had to be part of this
'cause it was seven years andshe had IV equipment in the
house and taking picturesobviously of her in a scarf or
whatever, whatever she's makingup that day.
Lots of pictures online.
Very convincing.
I mean, to the point where whenyou and I brought this up, you
were like, wait a second, it,this looks legit.
'cause she looks, you know,she's got an IV in a, she's in
(26:20):
an IV room, but she did aspectacular job of getting
herself in the hospital.
Then taking a bunch of pictures.
Leah (26:29):
And I don't know if it, like, it wasn't so much like she
looks legit.
I was, I'm just more like, howdo you pull that off?
I mean, you know, she would get.
Medical equipment, which Isuppose now you could order, you
know, through Amazon.
Um, but there was an articlethat kind of talked about how
she could have faked it.
Tina (26:47):
she got herself through the eR and got herself admitted
for
Leah (26:50):
Something else.
Tina (26:51):
pain or whatever.
Leah (26:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina (26:54):
Something you couldn't see, and then she'd get her
workup.
they put her in overnight and,uh, yeah, she would just take
advantage of the bed in thesetting.
And her husband had to knowabout it.
Leah (27:04):
Absolutely.
Tina (27:05):
There's no charges against him.
They're now divorced.
and she claims her siblings,which I believe her brother
probably did not know about it.
Her mother, whose name is Peggy.
It was a little more suspect, Imean.
She claims to have gone with herto all these appointments while
she was seeing doctors over theyears.
Hard to believe that her motherwasn't someone involved, but
there's no proof of it, so,
Leah (27:25):
Yeah.
I mean, how do you go todoctor's appointments?
When someone doesn't have cancerand sit there and your take home
message is, okay, they havecancer.
I really liked the detective inScamanda,
Tina (27:39):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (27:40):
private Detective Martinez.
I really liked him.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Wasn't he the, he was the, the, no, he wasn't a pi,
was he?
He was a, um,
Leah (27:49):
was he, was he an actual police officer at the time?
Oh, now he's a pi.
Tina (27:53):
yeah, yeah.
I think so.
But
Leah (27:55):
Well, anyways, I, yeah, so.
He discovered that fake letterfrom the doctor.
Tina (28:02):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (28:03):
Like there was a letter that I guess was altered and
then he like, whatever, I likethese connections that, you
know, to like my life.
'cause then I'm like, oh wow.
So, um, she had said that shewas like a patient at City of
Hope
Tina (28:18):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (28:20):
and you know, they can't say whether or not, you know.
They can't give a lot ofinformation.
They're patients.
Tina (28:26):
because of HIPAA laws?
Mm-hmm.
Leah (28:28):
Yeah.
But apparently he found out thatshe was never a City of Hope
patient.
Tina (28:32):
Well, they could say that because she wasn't a patient, so
they weren't protecting anypatient.
Privacy because they could saythat.
They could say, well, she hasn'tbeen here.
Leah (28:41):
So had she been a patient they had, they would have to
say, we can't say,
Tina (28:44):
Exactly.
Leah (28:46):
but yeah.
So, and he had talked about likewhat.
Her disorder is like an extremeform of narcissism.
Tina (28:55):
Interesting.
so Scamanda is a littleconfusing in that Amanda was the
nanny and teacher of.
A couple's child who had cancer,that couple they end up
divorcing.
That's Corey and his wife, whosename is Alida.
His wife's name's Alida.
So Alida and Corey are married.
They have a child with cancerwhose name is Jamie.
(29:17):
Jamie needs someone to bothteach her at home as well as
oversee her like a nanny.
And Amanda gets hired to do thisand Jamie has cancer.
Leah (29:26):
Like legit.
Yeah.
Legitimately.
Tina (29:28):
Legitimately this child has cancer.
So that's how it all starts.
Fast forward a few years, Coreydivorces, Alida marries Amanda.
right.
Leah (29:37):
Red flag
Tina (29:38):
Hello.
And so this Jamie person,
Leah (29:42):
the child.
Tina (29:43):
the child who grows up, she's also interviewed in
Scamanda.
I find her to be one of the morecompelling characters because
she's.
Very mature and she's talkingabout her perspective from a
child's perspective, watchingall of this unfold.
Her mother and her stepmother,who clearly are arch enemies in
real life.
Leah (30:02):
Well, they were trying to take her away.
I mean, they did.
They did.
Like, they were like saying thatAlita was like an unfit mother,
and yeah, they took.
Tina (30:10):
Yeah.
So there's a whole lot of dramain Scamanda that is not even
cancer related.
I was incredulous about This isjust like not a good person.
I mean,
Leah (30:18):
Not good people.
Corey, either.
I mean, yeah,
Tina (30:22):
Incredible.
And there was another, there'sa, there's another child that
was not in there.
she opted outta the whole thing.
Leah (30:29):
that was their child.
That was, uh, Corey and Amanda'schild.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Her name's Jessa.
Yeah.
Tina (30:34):
And Jessa opted out, which I don't blame her.
That, you know, that's one ofthose where I, you know, I'd
probably just change my name andtry to get some help.
'cause that can't be a normalhousehold.
You think your mother's dying ofcancer because she duped the
children as well.
The kids thought she had cancer.
At some point along the way, shesays to them, I might need bone
marrow from one or two of you.
(30:56):
I mean, this is craziness.
Leah (30:57):
Was she the one who said that when she became pregnant
that the cancer, yeah, she's theone who said that when she
became pregnant, the cancer wentinto remission.
Tina (31:06):
Yes.
Leah (31:08):
Red flag.
Tina (31:09):
Yeah.
Although it's not unheard of.
You can find rare cases of that.
I can think of a cervical cancercase that was published.
Leah (31:15):
But Hodgkin's Lymphoma,
Tina (31:17):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, but I'm just sayinglike, you know, you, you, you do
have a hybrid immune system atthat moment.
'cause the fetus and you aresharing a.
An immune system that's new toyou, so it's not like crazy.
As crazy as some of the otherthings she said.
Leah (31:32):
I know, but it's just like, well, like what a, like,
random thing to say, like, Idon't know.
Tina (31:37):
yeah.
I'm with you.
Leah (31:38):
I wanna kind of see all their notes.
Like where, like where did theydo their research?
Tina (31:43):
Oh, I think it's all in their head.
That's why they would makemistakes eventually.
Leah (31:46):
Yeah, but I think the one who made the least mistakes was
Elizabeth Finch,
Tina (31:51):
Yeah.
Maybe she had the best rotememory.
Leah (31:53):
or she was a writer, so she knew how to research.
The, the Condrosarcoma part was,to me, the weirdest part because
it is typically in, um, olderpatients.
And then like, yeah, there werethe weird things where she,
like, she apparently wentthrough some clinical trial and
was the only person who survivedthe clinical trial.
Um.
Yeah.
Tina (32:12):
Oh, what a horrible web we weave when first we practiced to
deceive.
I guess I didn't learn thatlesson.
Leah (32:19):
Yeah.
So anything else we wanna bringup about, about these?
We'll have links to all of theshows in our, in our notes.
Tina (32:27):
It's unfortunate because we live in a world where fact
and fiction.
Are often colliding right in, inreal life.
And we're not sure what's news,what's information, what's
disinformation, what'smisinformation, what the hell's
the difference between thosethree things all the time.
And, um, this whole takingadvantage of vulnerable people
and, and their empathy and justit's so next level evil, whether
(32:51):
it's for money or career gain orit's just simply a mental
illness and they're narcissistsand they just like to be the
center of attention.
Whatever it is, it's reallyanother unpleasantry to this
whole, kind of world of, what dowe call them, alternative facts.
Leah (33:07):
And especially because there were people who actually
had cancer, who got tied up intheir, their webs of lies.
Like, you know, you know, likethe little boy in, bell Gibson
story who actually had braincancer and she had promised like
all this money and never camethrough with that.
Um, and then in.
(33:28):
Amanda Riley's story, you know,Jamie who initially had cancer
and then didn't, but just likeexploit, like exploiting people
who actually have cancer.
and Amanda would do these Idon't know if it was the
leukemia, lymphoma events, wherethere are people who actually
have cancer, who are involvedand you know, just
Tina (33:48):
Yeah.
Leah (33:49):
that's just.
Tina (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, the money is bad enough, but there's real
people getting hurt in in theend.
Leah (33:57):
And Bell Gibson, like one of the stories, at least in
apple cider vinegar, and I knowit was partially based on truth,
is, um, that woman that weprobably both saw in the first
episode and that was it.
but like her.
Husband was a journalist and shestarted following more natural
(34:20):
treatments because she became afollower of Bell Gibson.
And, you know, she was diagnosedwith breast cancer and decided
to do natural things.
And so like, I mean, it, itaffected people more than their
wallet.
Tina (34:34):
Yes.
Leah (34:34):
Like it affected people's lives, people and who knows how
many people out there.
Really bought into Bell Gibsonand said they weren't gonna do
treatment, and they bought herbook and just, yeah, it's
horrible.
Tina (34:49):
Yeah, so the, the Bell Gibson store that I did start
watching is on Netflix calledThe Search for Instagram's Worst
Con Artist.
And that is on her, but it's anactual documentary and it
predates the Apple CiderVinegar.
That journalist whose wifeactually had cancer and who
investigated her like ajournalistic investigation
investigation um, he.
(35:11):
It was very clear that he wasdisturbed because he knew that
this was highly suspicious, thatshe cleared herself of,
glioblastoma, and he wasdisturbed for that exact reason.
This is actually leading to harmif people are not going to do
their conventional therapy.
That could be, especially ifit's gonna be curative.
Um, which interestingly is thecase for some lymphomas.
Aggressive lymphomas can be.
Cured with chemotherapy.
(35:32):
I'd love for another, you know,treatment to be there that's
less toxic and more specific.
And we're getting there.
We're getting there withimmunotherapies.
But you know, whenever someonehas a diagnosis of cancer, the
big question on the table, andthis is always right outta the
gates, as soon as you get yourdiagnosis, is there a curative
treatment?
That I can do.
And if there's a curativetreatment that's been reliably
(35:54):
used, that's the direction youshould try to go in and then
make that as tolerable aspossible if it happens to be
chemo.
So to your point, the disservicewas who knows?
Who knows how many people took aa route of juicing or dietary
stuff and refused treatmentaltogether?
Leah (36:14):
Yeah.
Tina (36:15):
Or delayed it greatly, which we know delaying is not a
good idea.
I mean, that actually is provenin studies.
Delaying is a bad idea.
Get on it and, and if there'scure, do it, do that treatment
and you know, hopefully you comeout the other side without any
cancer.
But yeah, I think that's thebiggest offense of all of these
too.
I mean, money's just money, butanyone who bought that idea and
(36:38):
is no longer with us because ofit, is the true tragedy.
I'm sure that that's the case.
Leah (36:43):
Yeah.
Tina (36:44):
Yeah.
So the documentary, I think I'mgonna finish watching.
I just watched one of two ofthose episodes so far on her, on
Bell.
Leah (36:50):
Yeah.
I, I downloaded to watch thatone.
Um, I think I started watchingit.
I started getting confused,honestly.
Tina (36:57):
yeah, yeah, me too.
This was a lot to take in
Leah (36:59):
Yeah.
Tina (37:00):
cause they have overlaps, they all exploit people, take
advantage of vulnerabilities andhave absolutely no conscience at
all.
Leah (37:06):
Yeah.
And I think the only one who Youknow, who wasn't like a wellness
influencer, kind of, you know,claiming, Elizabeth Finch was
the one who like wasn't sort of,she was profiting off of her
history of cancer,
Tina (37:20):
Yes.
Leah (37:21):
but it wasn't the same as the other two.
Not that it was any better, itwas really warped, but
Tina (37:30):
Yeah, she kind of threw her.
Brother under the bus byaccusing him of things that he
didn't do.
Leah (37:36):
Oh my God.
No, because, because it wassomething that happened to
someone else, someone whoconfided in her, and then she
turned it into being her brotherand then claimed her brother had
killed himself after it wasactually, um, uh, her wife's ex,
husband killed himself.
Oh my God.
I'm not laughing.
I'm just like, so like you said,incredulous like.
(37:59):
And so then she yeah, completelyaccused her brother of these
like awful things.
Tina (38:04):
To her parents.
She even said it to her ownparents, they're like, huh?
Yeah.
I mean.
I actually thought that thatshow was very good.
It was decently done.
Anatomy of lies was, was welldone.
I like the documentary that I'mwatching on Belle Gibson.
I think apple cider vinegar isreally, maybe there's supposed
to be, leave a bad taste in mymouth, but it's apple cider
(38:26):
vinegar.
Um, and Scamanda is kind ofhokey, but it's,
Leah (38:31):
well, the said like, like we said, it's, it's more like an
A, B, C news special run out,like
Tina (38:37):
On that note, just that, that reminds me the podcast is
much better.
I thought the podcast wasactually better than the
Netflix, than the special onhulu.
Leah (38:46):
So, and the woman who did the podcast, she's in the, the
show, right?
She's in the, the TV show?
Yeah.
I just, it, it's that whole,like you said, like 60 minutes
kind of, no, more like not a 60minutes.
It's more like a 2020 kind of
Tina (39:00):
yes.
Leah (39:01):
one of those.
I mean, and you know, they havelike reenactment type things and
mixed in with the real footage.
Okay.
That's the other thing that Ithink is incredible is the real
footage,
Tina (39:13):
Uh oh.
Leah (39:14):
because this is the time of like, cell phones and
Instagram and all of that, andlike some of the footage that
they have, it's pretty amazingthat someone was recording this,
even anatomy of lies.
Like someone's got a camera outand they're filming.
You know, Elizabeth with herwife's kids and all of these
(39:34):
things, like, it's just, it'sreally crazy.
I mean, again, there is, youknow, this reenactment,
Tina (39:42):
Yes.
Leah (39:43):
but there's also actual footage and what they've
obtained is really incredible.
Yeah,
Tina (39:48):
yeah.
The actual footage is, more mystyle.
I wanna see the documentary.
I don't, I don't really need theartistic license.
These people's stories arealready.
Outlandish enough.
Leah (39:57):
on that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (39:59):
and I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor
Leah (40:00):
and this is the Cancer Pod.
Until next time.
Thanks for listening to theCancer Pod.
Remember to subscribe, reviewand rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates, and as always, this is
not medical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor beforechanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The Cancer Pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(40:22):
Leah Sherman, and by Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Music is by Kevin McLeod.
See you next time.
Leah, I am incredulous about these fakers and frauds in
cancer care.
Like that.
They would even go there andpretend to have cancer is mind
blowing.
Leah (00:14):
But the lengths that they go through, like pretending to
have a port and pretending to begetting, you know, like posting
pictures getting infusions, likeit's crazy.
Shaving their heads.
Tina (00:25):
Yeah, one of them, Scamanda, Amanda, when they ask
her, good friend when did youfinally realize that she was
faking, her answer was not untilshe pleaded guilty in court,
because of pictures of hergetting IVs and nurses in the
background and
Leah (00:41):
Oh, and like friends and family would take them to
treatment.
I mean, sometimes they wouldn'tlet them in.
while they were gettingtreatment, they just like drop
'em off at the, at the hospital.
But still, no, it just,
Tina (00:51):
it's diabolical.
Leah (00:53):
absolutely.
And so what we did, dearlistener, is we looked into, we
watched the stories of threepretty famous cancer fakers,
cancer frauds,
Tina (01:08):
infamous,
Leah (01:08):
infamous.
Much better.
Yes.
So they're known in, in thecancer world.
And I mean, every time I wouldthink like, oh my God, this is
like so surprising.
This is so shocking.
Then I'd watch another story andI was like, how did, what the
heck?
it just like kept like, it'scrazy.
And, and there are more peoplethan just the three that we're
(01:31):
talking about.
Um, we're gonna talk about BelleGibson, Amanda Riley, and
Elizabeth Finch.
Tina (01:38):
Apple Cider Vinegar, Scamanda, and Anatomy of Lies,
in that order,
Leah (01:42):
Yeah.
Tina (01:43):
I'm gonna say something right up front.
apple cider vinegar, I couldn'teven get through the first
episode.
Leah (01:49):
oh, I didn't either.
Um, but we both watched the 60Minutes Australia interview with
her, so.
Tina (01:56):
Yes, and I watched an actual documentary that was
separate.
'cause apple cider vinegar is adocudrama at best.
Leah (02:03):
Right.
Um, but it's, it's not even, Imean, it, it's not even a docu,
I mean, it's, it's a fictional,it's, yeah, it's a fictional
account because.
Yeah, I started looking intosome of the characters and I
realized that they were kind ofamalgams that there's this one
character Mila, and I wanted toknow more about her.
And she was, yeah.
So anyways, so yeah, we did notactually finish apple cider
(02:24):
vinegar, but it makes sensebecause we were just kind of
doing more of the documentarystuff.
Tina (02:28):
Yeah, I, when I realized it was fictional, I didn't wanna
confuse my brain with fictionalaccounts and actual facts.
Leah (02:36):
Yeah, exactly..
Tina (02:36):
So I just put it aside.
Leah (02:38):
me too.
Me too.
And I probably will go back andwatch it, but I didn't wanna
confuse reality with,
Tina (02:44):
Oh, that's funny.
We did the same thing.
We both did it for the same
Leah (02:47):
yeah, no, I just didn't want to onfuse reality with
fiction, but the whole thing islike fictitious.
Tina (02:54):
You would think that all of it is fiction, but it
actually happened.
All these people did justoutrageously devious,
fraudulent.
Fake cancers for their ownbenefit.
Leah (03:07):
Okay, so before we get into if you like listening to
our podcast, if you enjoy thecancer pod, then make sure you
share it with your friends andfamily.
Tina (03:16):
Yeah, and we do have a membership now, so if you wanna
get to know us a little bitbetter, we do live Q and A's on
YouTube.
Either quarterly or monthly orannually, depending on what
membership level you wanna joinus at.
And then we have membershipexclusives as well.
you can find the link for that,in our show notes or through our
website.
It's through buy me a coffee.
So if you just wanna buy us acoffee, you can do that as well.
(03:38):
And if you wanna buy us a coffeeevery month, then.
Join the membership.
Yes, you may as well.
It's only$3 a month.
Yeah.
At the base level.
if you have any questions aboutanything we talk about, you can
leave us a voice message on ourwebsite.
It's like a little voicemail oremail us questions and comments
at the cancer pod@gmail.com.
With that, let's get started
Tina (2) (03:59):
I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor, and as Leia likesto say, I'm the science y one.
Leah (04:03):
And I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman, and I'm the cancerinsider.
Tina (2) (04:07):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who
practice integrative cancercare.
Leah (04:11):
But we're not your doctors.
Tina (2) (04:13):
This is for education, entertainment, and informational
purposes only.
Leah (04:17):
Do not apply any of this information without first
speaking to your doctor.
Tina (2) (04:22):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own.
Leah (04:28):
Welcome to the Cancer Pod.
okay, first of all, just fakingcancer in general is kind of,
Tina (04:41):
A symptom of a mental illness.
Leah (04:43):
yeah.
And so one of the things thatthey talked about in, uh, I
think a few of the, the thingsthat we watched was, factitious
disorder, which is the new namefor, um, Munchhausen.
Tina (04:54):
Yes.
Leah (04:55):
Munchausen syndrome.
And now there's something knownas Munchausen by internet, which
I'm like,
Tina (05:03):
Yes.
'cause there's always beenMunchausen by proxy
Leah (05:05):
which is when like a parent will do things to cause
like a child or a spouse, youknow,
Tina (05:11):
to be sick.
Leah (05:12):
Where one person does that to the other, and there's always
been Munchausen where a personfakes their own illness, but now
there's Munchausen by internet'cause you're bringing Instagram
and everything else into it.
Tina (05:24):
Yeah, let me just, I'm gonna read off Mayo Clinic's
website.
This link that you gave meactually in our notes.
The symptoms of fictitiousdisorder involve people trying
to look ill, making themselvesill or hurting themselves.
May also fake symptoms, makesymptoms seem worse than they
are, or pretend they can't docertain things because of their
symptoms, so they can deceiveothers.
(05:45):
People with a condition workhard to hide their lies.
It may be hard to know thattheir symptoms are part of a
serious mental health condition.
People with this disordercontinue with the lies even
without any benefit or reward,or when faced with evidence that
it doesn't support their claims.
Wow.
So it's a mental disorder.
Leah (06:02):
Yes.
And I guess on some of the, thethings that we watched, they
were kind of asking people, youknow, like, why would, why would
this happen?
Why would you do this?
And, you know, there's somethought that it might be due to
a history of neglect.
Tina (06:18):
Hmm.
Okay.
You know what?
I didn't look into anything thatwas remotely, um, empathetic
towards these characters.
I'll admit, I do realize it's amental disorder, and that's
probably as far as I need to goin my mind.
Like, okay, well there's reasonsfor that.
So I'm a little unforgivingbecause it's so hideous.
(06:38):
Their crimes.
Leah (06:39):
I'm just curious as to like, how does a person become.
Tina (06:43):
Yeah.
Leah (06:44):
Like, I mean, just faking, you know, there's always like a
hypochondriac, someone whothinks every, you know, every
little symptom they're havingis, a much bigger, um, illness
or whatever, or, you know, everysniffle sneeze is something.
but yeah, this is like nextlevel.
This is just.
Tina (07:02):
It's next level because it's not just deception, it's
exploitation.
So now they each, in, each ofthese in some way, they're
exploiting the empathy they getfrom other people for either
professional or monetary gain.
Leah (07:17):
Right.
And that's, that's what I wasgonna say next, is that two of
them at least, were making moneyfrom.
Like directly making money.
I mean, I think Elizabeth Finchwas also making money, but that
was through her gettingemployment because of what she
was saying was going on.
Tina (07:35):
Elizabeth Finch, who was an acclaimed writer for Grey's
Anatomy, right?
She wrote.
Award-winning episodes.
That one blew my mind.
Leah (07:46):
Well, and before she wrote for Grey's Anatomy, she wrote
For True Blood, which was likeone of my favorite series.
Tina (07:52):
Oh, really?
Leah (07:53):
And then she wrote for Vampire Diaries, which I never
watch, but um, yeah, the wholeGrey's Anatomy thing.
Well, because hers was likebeyond cancer.
Like she did claim that she wasdiagnosed in like 2012 with a,
chondro sarcoma, which is.
Unusual for someone of her ageto be diagnosed with that.
And I couldn't figure out, Likeshe had, she claimed it was in
(08:16):
her leg, but then it was also inher spine.
It was, it was a little hard tofall, like for me, it was hard
to follow exactly like what herdiagnosis was.
Um, but she went beyond thecancer diagnosis.
Like she, she faked, you know,she had she had pictures of like
something covering her port, youknow, she would wear a scarf on
her head.
(08:36):
She would go to these writer'smeetings'cause she was you know,
a writer on this TV show andshe'd leave to, to get sick.
She'd, I mean it just like thatin itself was like crazy that
she was faking all that.
She also flew to was it Mayo orsomething and had someone go
with her and drop her off shewould go in and then come back
(08:57):
out.
Like she had her friend wait inthe parking lot.
I don't know.
Tina (09:00):
Yes.
Yes she did.
She had a friend from way backfrom Kansas or something, go
with her to the Mayo Clinic, butshe insisted she not come in and
when she did come in,'cause herfriend's like, well, I can't sit
here on the parking garage allday.
She kind of wandered in to be.
A good friend and go supporther, and she got livid and she
basically ripped her a new oneand then she's like, okay, okay.
(09:21):
I won't come in
Leah (09:22):
Yeah, it, but just like thinking that was faking it.
But she also faked other things.
Like she would take aspects ofother people's lives and then
adopt them and then turn thoseinto like episodes.
Yeah.
Tina (09:34):
Episode of Grey's Anatomy based on a conversation, a
private conversation withsomeone who thought she was, you
know, confiding in a good friendoh, that's craziness.
Crazy.
I.
Leah (09:45):
hers was like, I mean, they're all next level, but hers
was like beyond cancer.
Like she had the cancer.
It was her like backstory andthen she just kept going from
there.
Tina (09:56):
Yeah, the cancer diagnosis was her way to manipulate people
and to get them to look theother way and give her a lot of
grace.
Right?
Like, oh, I'm sick.
Oh, I have to go away.
Oh, and even the one whose storyshe.
Basically used to create anaward-winning episode based on
this woman's tragic events inher own life.
Even then, that person wasgiving her some grace because
(10:19):
she's like, you know this poorperson who's going through
treatment and is always sick,and it was just a way to
manipulate people.
Leah (10:26):
Yeah.
Tina (10:27):
Yeah.
That's why I call it diabolical.
There, every one of themexploited people's emotions.
Leah (10:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
well, okay, so let's, let's goback to, let's go back to the
beginning.
And the beginning isn't reallythe beginning.
'cause I'm sure there werepeople who faked cancer before
then, but the one who reallybecame renowned was Belle
Gibson.
Tina (10:47):
Belle Gibson.
Leah (10:48):
Yeah.
And so, you know, and.
With all of these, I start towonder when they talk about
like, their cancer spreading,I'm like, like, like, is that
how this cancer works?
Like,
Tina (11:01):
What do you mean
Leah (11:02):
well, like, like they, I don't know.
I, okay, so let's start withBelle Gibson.
What, what her cancer was, whatwas her, uh,
Tina (11:09):
brain?
Leah (11:10):
yeah, like a glioblastoma or
Tina (11:12):
Yes.
She claimed to have a braintumor.
And she claimed to have refusedthe conventional treatment'cause
it made her too sick.
So she turned to juicing anddiet and lifestyle to cure
herself.
That was her claim.
Leah (11:26):
Right, because she was given initially like four months
to live.
Tina (11:29):
That was her claim.
Yes.
Leah (11:31):
That was her claim.
Tina (11:31):
None of this is true.
Leah (11:33):
No, no.
Tina (11:33):
Let's remember this.
The whole episode was on fakesand frauds.
So anything we say about thesepeople is what they, what they
said.
Leah (11:39):
Right.
And I, I think a lot of ourlisteners, or you know, a fair
number of our listeners haveprobably watched Apple cider
vinegar just because it is suchan intriguing story.
Um, okay, so this is the thingwhere I thought it was.
A little off is that apparentlyin a 2014 Instagram post, um,
(12:00):
Belle had said that her cancerspread to her brain, cancer
spread to her blood, spleen,brain uterus, and liver.
Tina (12:07):
Yes, this is Anyone within oncology would recognize that
as, huh?
Leah (12:13):
Exactly.
Tina (12:14):
But a lot of time people misunderstand what's going on in
their own body or they hear itdifferently.
And so I'll be honest, Iprobably, if someone said that
to me, I'd probably think tomyself, oh, she must have had
some kind of metastatic cancerto her brain in the first place.
She probably started withanother type of cancer that had
spread to her brain in thefirst, it wasn't glioblastoma,
which would explain.
(12:35):
You know how it would spread.
'cause glioblastoma doesn'tusually leave the brain.
I mean, it would be a very, veryrare case,
Leah (12:42):
Right.
Yeah.
So, so, yeah.
But I, but I found that witheach one of them, like
Tina (12:49):
red flags.
Leah (12:50):
little red flags.
Yeah.
Which,
Tina (12:52):
But you know, the thing about red flags is that they're
so easy to see in retrospect,aren't they?
Leah (12:56):
But what I don't understand with Val Gibson, I
mean she really marketedherself.
Like she came out with a book,an app, um, she was awarded from
Cosmopolitan Magazine, like someaward,
Tina (13:10):
Yeah.
Leah (13:11):
she was on all the shows
Tina (13:13):
Yeah.
Talk about all in on a lie.
Wow.
Leah (13:16):
in a lie and like really like.
I think someone had uh, pointedout in something I was watching
about her that she really knewhow to market herself.
Tina (13:25):
Well, yeah.
And that app on Apple, I didn'trealize this, but Apple said,
we're gonna make your app thefirst Innate health app on our
new watch.
And so she, she was like really,really prominent, like crazy
prominent.
Leah (13:43):
Oh yeah.
Tina (13:44):
I think over a million followers, 2.3 million followers
or something ridiculous onInstagram.
I don't remember crazy
Speaker 3 (13:51):
stuff.
Leah (13:52):
And this is like, you know, like early Instagram,
early-ish, so.
Tina (13:55):
Yes, this was incredible.
You know, there's a Seinfeldepisode where, um, Jerry
Seinfeld's trying to figure outhow to, how to lie.
He can't lie very well.
George Costanza, his bestfriend, for those who didn't
watch the show, is a very goodliar.
And he's trying to, he's like,how do you do it?
How do you do it?
He's like, I can't impart this.
It's just, you're either goodeditor or you're not.
And then just as he's leavingthe diner, he turns around and
(14:17):
he says, remember Jerry, it'snot a lie if you believe it.
That's it.
That's like all these people Ithink are delusional.
I think they believe in someway, shape, or form in their
brains.
They believe what they'resaying, which allows them to
continue the deception.
Leah (14:32):
watching that 60 minutes interview with Bell Gibson,
like, she would not admit, shewas like so in it, she was not
going to say Yes, I lied.
I.
Tina (14:44):
No, and I, I came across some, I don't know, YouTube
thing of CIA or FBI guy sayinghow to, how to see a sociopath.
And it had to do with people nothaving lines on their face
because normal people haveexpressions.
And I kept thinking about it inthat 60 minutes interview.
I was like, look at her face.
She doesn't have a line on it.
Like there's nothing on herforehead.
(15:04):
I know she's 20 something yearsold in the video, so there's
that.
But even 20 somethings havesomething you can see that they
have had, they've hadexpressions on their face
before.
She looked like she looked likeporcelain, you know, her skin.
It was incredible.
So,
Leah (15:17):
that's'cause she was following everything in her
book, I'm
Tina (15:20):
oh, right.
That's right.
Leah (15:21):
she claimed to cure her own cancer with, she claimed she
used Gersen therapy, naturalmedicine and whole food.
And so her book was The WholePantry, which was all these
recipes on, on cooking withWhole Foods.
Tina (15:35):
Yeah, and I wanna say, you know.
It's unfortunate that thesethings happen and I, I probably
won't, I dunno if I'll everwatch apple cider vinegar.
It was really hard for me justto watch half the first episode.
But, if I ever do, it's, it'skind of a black eye on the
entire wellness industry to havethese people out there making up
stuff.
Right.
Or even an integrative oncology.
(15:57):
I mean,'cause there's plenty ofevidence-based integrative
oncology that people shouldinstitute for their own
wellbeing.
But it's hard because peoplekind of think they have to go
all in one side or the other.
Instead of saying, okay, wait,what parts of this makes sense?
What parts are evidenced?
How do I, you know, keep myimmune system as, healthy as
possible?
What diet and lifestyle actuallymakes sense?
(16:17):
So.
I just don't want people tothink that everything is a bunch
of bunk.
There is plenty of things thatpeople can do that are helpful.
Leah (16:24):
Right.
But I do think that especiallywith TikTok and Instagram reels
and all of that, you know.
With the popularity of socialmedia, I mean, the whole
wellness industry, it's, it'shard for people to know what's
for real, what isn't.
You know, there are people whoare these fruitarians, you know,
they claim to just eat likegiant bowls of fruit.
(16:44):
I think one of the influencerswho, her big thing was that she
was a fruitarian.
She died recently.
Like, I mean, they're just,anyone can claim to.
Be an expert, you know?
And, and there are people whohave had cancer, who truly had
cancer, who then go into thewellness, industry, hoping to
(17:07):
help others, but maybe don'thave the training.
So they're just like, well, thisworked for me, so it's gonna
work for you.
but not having the sciencebehind it.
So, I mean, it's just, it's,it's really hard because I think
for like the average person toknow.
Is this legit or not?
And then, you know, like as, ascancer people, like we were
(17:29):
empathetic to someone who'sgoing through what we went
through, you know, and whenthey're just posting their lives
and, you know, you just becomeso, engrossed and like, what's
going on.
because you can relate to, partsof it and then it just turns out
to be a lie.
Like, I still wanna know, like.
Okay.
So, Elizabeth Finch, her wife,who was a nurse, realized that
(17:56):
these things were fake.
I mean, besides the fact thatlike her life was being stolen
and put on, on tv, but sherealized that fiche, as they
call her, didn't have a portscar
Tina (18:08):
Yes.
And as a nurse,
Leah (18:10):
as a nurse.
Like, I mean.
Tina (18:12):
she finally realized
Leah (18:14):
She finally realized, 'cause she saw pictures of, you
know, bandages over a port,which in itself I thought was
kind of weird because you get abandage over your port when it's
first placed and then, or thisis my experience.
And then after that, you justget, um, like a bandaid, like
after your port's accessed, youjust get a bandaid.
(18:35):
You don't get like some giantthing covering it.
that's like.
You know, gauze or whatever.
you get those, what, I forgotwhat they're called.
The, is it Tega germs?
Tina (18:44):
Yeah, like a Tegaderm.
Leah (18:45):
yeah.
You can get that, but you stillsee it, you know?
So, so that in itself was like,that's how she, I mean, she
realized like, oh my God, shedoesn't, she had a port, but she
doesn't have a scar.
Tina (18:56):
and then she looked back on her postings and social
history and was like puttingdates together where fin, she
said one thing, she was supposedto be in one place and she was
in another.
Leah (19:05):
And that wasn't even cancer related,
Tina (19:06):
All I could think when her wife, who is a nurse, didn't.
Put all the pieces together.
All I could think to myself ishow love is blind, how, how much
there is a suspension ofdisbelief for that whole thing
to happen.
Leah (19:23):
Yeah, but she, she also met her wife during a very like.
Traumatic time.
I can't remember her wife'sname, but, um, they met at
Sierra Tucson, which is a rehabfacility, north of Tucson,
Arizona.
And
Tina (19:40):
It's rehab and mental health, isn't it?
You don't have to be an addictto go there.
Leah (19:43):
No, no, you, you don't, you know, because they also
treat people with eatingdisorders and trauma.
And so it was a, it was part ofa trauma group and you know, she
had, she was.
Traumatized by her husband, herthen husband, and had
disassociated.
And then I don't know if shelike, I guess self-admitted or
if someone admitted her toSierra Tucson.
(20:05):
But anyway, so she was very,very vulnerable
Tina (20:08):
yes.
Leah (20:08):
when they met.
and so I kind of give her that,you know, she wasn't in a place
she was fearing for her lifebecause of her, her then
husband, you know, just it.
Tina (20:19):
right.
Leah (20:19):
She had a lot going on.
Tina (20:21):
She had a lot going on in her, her kids were at risk of
being taken away from her andwith her very, you know, scary
looking husband, who wasabusive.
Leah (20:31):
Yeah.
Sending her threatening messagesand just really so I could see
how.
Finding someone who was veryattentive and very affectionate
and you know, everything that,you know, fiche portrayed
herself to be, just kind offalling for
Tina (20:47):
sure.
Yes.
Leah (20:48):
that they're saying.
But yeah, once your story startsbeing used as an episode, it
just, oh man,
Tina (20:56):
I, I've never watched Grey's Anatomy, which is
interesting.
I've never actually seen theshow.
Leah (21:01):
oh really?
Tina (21:02):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I know of it.
It's been around for 20 years,hasn't it?
20 plus years, but I've neveractually watched it.
Leah (21:07):
Oh, I watched it initially and then it just kind of like,
like all of those shows, it juststarts to kind of go off.
I don't know.
There was one where like one ofthe doctors, she, I don't know,
it was like, I can't evenremember what it was, but there
was one episode where I waslike, okay, it jumped the shark.
I'm done.
Like, it just was like sooutrageous.
(21:29):
But um.
I felt the same with ER was kindof that way too, where er just,
you have helicopters crashinginto hospitals, and then you
just, just, it gets a little,like,
Tina (21:39):
yeah.
Leah (21:39):
they just try to make'em next level.
Okay.
So, um,
Tina (21:43):
Speaking of taking advantage of vulnerabilities and
trust.
Can we move on to Amanda Riley,
Leah (21:49):
yeah.
So Amanda,
Tina (21:51):
Scamanda,
Leah (21:52):
She is, uh, featured in the, the series, the limited
series Scamanda.
Tina (21:58):
and the podcast, which
Leah (21:59):
Oh,
Tina (21:59):
birth to the limited series.
Leah (22:01):
that's right.
The podcast came first.
Um, she claimed to have stagefour Hodgkin's lymphoma.
the series is, well, it's likea, b, c news or something.
And so it's very, like, itrepeats itself each episode.
It's kind of.
Tina (22:15):
It's like Night Nightline 2020 where they drag it out a
bit.
Leah (22:19):
Yeah.
It didn't have to be that long.
But, um, yeah, they reallyemphasized that she was, you
know, a member of this churchand she just was deceiving, all
these people in her church.
That one woman who was like, Iwas an atheist.
And then my friend brought me tothe church and then I like, you
know, saw Amanda and her storyand.
(22:42):
Then she joins the church.
Tina (22:44):
She literally says in court when it all.
When the shit hits the fan, shesays in court, you are The
reason I first prayed to Godabout Amanda for her cancer.
That's how much empathy, shedrew out of people and how
manipulative she was withpeople's emotions Okay.
The scenes, there's scenes inthis, in this where, I know it's
(23:04):
fictitious, but it's, it's likethat's exactly what happened
where she's on stage.
There's one thing that's realwith her on stage where she says
some line that is just like, ohmy God, the level of
exploitation where she sayssomething like, and I think it's
considered her giving testimony,right?
Don't ignore Jesus because he isthere.
(23:24):
It would be something liketragic or something if he
brought you your miracle and youweren't paying attention
Leah (23:31):
Oh, they played that over and over.
Tina (23:33):
at least five times.
Leah (23:35):
Oh yeah.
Tina (23:36):
But that was basically the basis of her exploiting that
church and people were justliterally throwing money at her.
Like, okay, we'll keepsupporting you.
We'll keep supporting you.
And when they came to thechurch, the church was gonna
defend her at first because it'sludicrous to think one of their
members would fake cancer.
Leah (23:51):
Oh, and that one friend of hers had given her like tens of
thousands of dollars.
Tina (23:56):
She's the one that didn't really believe it until Amanda
pleaded guilty in court.
Leah (24:01):
Crazy, crazy.
Tina (24:04):
Okay.
Her deception and herexploitation started in 2012 and
didn't end until 2019.
She had seven years of raisingmoney.
On behalf of her care.
She, she filed bankruptcy, orshe claimed to have filed
bankruptcy, which she did.
She, she actually put thepaperwork in, which was the
mistake because her crime thatthey finally convicted her of
(24:27):
was fraud.
Leah (24:28):
Wire fraud.
Yeah.
Tina (24:30):
wire fraud and a fake bankruptcy charge.
Um, so yeah, even, even afterthey came after her for wire
fraud, she still claimed to havecancer.
And still the day after that shewas put out a, post to raise
money and awareness of aleukemia day or something.
Leah (24:46):
Oh, okay.
And so the part where, again,like I said, like they're like
little bits of their storieswhere you're just kind of like,
if you have any, you know,knowledge.
Of cancer, you're kind of like,huh, that's a little weird.
Um, that clinical trial that shewas allegedly on, like through
Columbia University, she wastold that she could self
(25:07):
administer Keytruda at home.
Tina (25:10):
Right, right.
Red flag.
Red flag.
Leah (25:14):
Red flag.
Tina (25:15):
Yeah.
Leah (25:16):
Oh my gosh.
And then like, and then thephotograph, like, like all of
the medical equipment and like,again, the photograph of like,
you know, she's got her port andyou know, she's hooked up to
oxygen or, you know, and she'sgot, um, you know, infusion.
Yeah, she, so she had a port,but then she also was getting
(25:38):
infusions in her arm.
I don't know.
I mean, the whole thing waslike.
Tina (25:42):
Yeah, and hers is, she did eventually get arrested.
And spent jail time.
Leah (25:48):
Yeah.
Tina (25:48):
gonna get out pretty soon, I think.
Um, on good behavior.
She was sentenced to a lengthyamount of time.
Leah (25:56):
60 months.
60 months.
Yeah.
Tina (25:58):
Um, her husband who clearly had to be part of this
'cause it was seven years andshe had IV equipment in the
house and taking picturesobviously of her in a scarf or
whatever, whatever she's makingup that day.
Lots of pictures online.
Very convincing.
I mean, to the point where whenyou and I brought this up, you
were like, wait a second, it,this looks legit.
'cause she looks, you know,she's got an IV in a, she's in
(26:20):
an IV room, but she did aspectacular job of getting
herself in the hospital.
Then taking a bunch of pictures.
Leah (26:29):
And I don't know if it, like, it wasn't so much like she
looks legit.
I was, I'm just more like, howdo you pull that off?
I mean, you know, she would get.
Medical equipment, which Isuppose now you could order, you
know, through Amazon.
Um, but there was an articlethat kind of talked about how
she could have faked it.
Tina (26:47):
she got herself through the eR and got herself admitted
for
Leah (26:50):
Something else.
Tina (26:51):
pain or whatever.
Leah (26:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina (26:54):
Something you couldn't see, and then she'd get her
workup.
they put her in overnight and,uh, yeah, she would just take
advantage of the bed in thesetting.
And her husband had to knowabout it.
Leah (27:04):
Absolutely.
Tina (27:05):
There's no charges against him.
They're now divorced.
and she claims her siblings,which I believe her brother
probably did not know about it.
Her mother, whose name is Peggy.
It was a little more suspect, Imean.
She claims to have gone with herto all these appointments while
she was seeing doctors over theyears.
Hard to believe that her motherwasn't someone involved, but
there's no proof of it, so,
Leah (27:25):
Yeah.
I mean, how do you go todoctor's appointments?
When someone doesn't have cancerand sit there and your take home
message is, okay, they havecancer.
I really liked the detective inScamanda,
Tina (27:39):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (27:40):
private Detective Martinez.
I really liked him.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Wasn't he the, he was the, the, no, he wasn't a pi,
was he?
He was a, um,
Leah (27:49):
was he, was he an actual police officer at the time?
Oh, now he's a pi.
Tina (27:53):
yeah, yeah.
I think so.
But
Leah (27:55):
Well, anyways, I, yeah, so.
He discovered that fake letterfrom the doctor.
Tina (28:02):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (28:03):
Like there was a letter that I guess was altered and
then he like, whatever, I likethese connections that, you
know, to like my life.
'cause then I'm like, oh wow.
So, um, she had said that shewas like a patient at City of
Hope
Tina (28:18):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (28:20):
and you know, they can't say whether or not, you know.
They can't give a lot ofinformation.
They're patients.
Tina (28:26):
because of HIPAA laws?
Mm-hmm.
Leah (28:28):
Yeah.
But apparently he found out thatshe was never a City of Hope
patient.
Tina (28:32):
Well, they could say that because she wasn't a patient, so
they weren't protecting anypatient.
Privacy because they could saythat.
They could say, well, she hasn'tbeen here.
Leah (28:41):
So had she been a patient they had, they would have to
say, we can't say,
Tina (28:44):
Exactly.
Leah (28:46):
but yeah.
So, and he had talked about likewhat.
Her disorder is like an extremeform of narcissism.
Tina (28:55):
Interesting.
so Scamanda is a littleconfusing in that Amanda was the
nanny and teacher of.
A couple's child who had cancer,that couple they end up
divorcing.
That's Corey and his wife, whosename is Alida.
His wife's name's Alida.
So Alida and Corey are married.
They have a child with cancerwhose name is Jamie.
(29:17):
Jamie needs someone to bothteach her at home as well as
oversee her like a nanny.
And Amanda gets hired to do thisand Jamie has cancer.
Leah (29:26):
Like legit.
Yeah.
Legitimately.
Tina (29:28):
Legitimately this child has cancer.
So that's how it all starts.
Fast forward a few years, Coreydivorces, Alida marries Amanda.
right.
Leah (29:37):
Red flag
Tina (29:38):
Hello.
And so this Jamie person,
Leah (29:42):
the child.
Tina (29:43):
the child who grows up, she's also interviewed in
Scamanda.
I find her to be one of the morecompelling characters because
she's.
Very mature and she's talkingabout her perspective from a
child's perspective, watchingall of this unfold.
Her mother and her stepmother,who clearly are arch enemies in
real life.
Leah (30:02):
Well, they were trying to take her away.
I mean, they did.
They did.
Like, they were like saying thatAlita was like an unfit mother,
and yeah, they took.
Tina (30:10):
Yeah.
So there's a whole lot of dramain Scamanda that is not even
cancer related.
I was incredulous about This isjust like not a good person.
I mean,
Leah (30:18):
Not good people.
Corey, either.
I mean, yeah,
Tina (30:22):
Incredible.
And there was another, there'sa, there's another child that
was not in there.
she opted outta the whole thing.
Leah (30:29):
that was their child.
That was, uh, Corey and Amanda'schild.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Her name's Jessa.
Yeah.
Tina (30:34):
And Jessa opted out, which I don't blame her.
That, you know, that's one ofthose where I, you know, I'd
probably just change my name andtry to get some help.
'cause that can't be a normalhousehold.
You think your mother's dying ofcancer because she duped the
children as well.
The kids thought she had cancer.
At some point along the way, shesays to them, I might need bone
marrow from one or two of you.
(30:56):
I mean, this is craziness.
Leah (30:57):
Was she the one who said that when she became pregnant
that the cancer, yeah, she's theone who said that when she
became pregnant, the cancer wentinto remission.
Tina (31:06):
Yes.
Leah (31:08):
Red flag.
Tina (31:09):
Yeah.
Although it's not unheard of.
You can find rare cases of that.
I can think of a cervical cancercase that was published.
Leah (31:15):
But Hodgkin's Lymphoma,
Tina (31:17):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, but I'm just sayinglike, you know, you, you, you do
have a hybrid immune system atthat moment.
'cause the fetus and you aresharing a.
An immune system that's new toyou, so it's not like crazy.
As crazy as some of the otherthings she said.
Leah (31:32):
I know, but it's just like, well, like what a, like,
random thing to say, like, Idon't know.
Tina (31:37):
yeah.
I'm with you.
Leah (31:38):
I wanna kind of see all their notes.
Like where, like where did theydo their research?
Tina (31:43):
Oh, I think it's all in their head.
That's why they would makemistakes eventually.
Leah (31:46):
Yeah, but I think the one who made the least mistakes was
Elizabeth Finch,
Tina (31:51):
Yeah.
Maybe she had the best rotememory.
Leah (31:53):
or she was a writer, so she knew how to research.
The, the Condrosarcoma part was,to me, the weirdest part because
it is typically in, um, olderpatients.
And then like, yeah, there werethe weird things where she,
like, she apparently wentthrough some clinical trial and
was the only person who survivedthe clinical trial.
Um.
Yeah.
Tina (32:12):
Oh, what a horrible web we weave when first we practiced to
deceive.
I guess I didn't learn thatlesson.
Leah (32:19):
Yeah.
So anything else we wanna bringup about, about these?
We'll have links to all of theshows in our, in our notes.
Tina (32:27):
It's unfortunate because we live in a world where fact
and fiction.
Are often colliding right in, inreal life.
And we're not sure what's news,what's information, what's
disinformation, what'smisinformation, what the hell's
the difference between thosethree things all the time.
And, um, this whole takingadvantage of vulnerable people
and, and their empathy and justit's so next level evil, whether
(32:51):
it's for money or career gain orit's just simply a mental
illness and they're narcissistsand they just like to be the
center of attention.
Whatever it is, it's reallyanother unpleasantry to this
whole, kind of world of, what dowe call them, alternative facts.
Leah (33:07):
And especially because there were people who actually
had cancer, who got tied up intheir, their webs of lies.
Like, you know, you know, likethe little boy in, bell Gibson
story who actually had braincancer and she had promised like
all this money and never camethrough with that.
Um, and then in.
(33:28):
Amanda Riley's story, you know,Jamie who initially had cancer
and then didn't, but just likeexploit, like exploiting people
who actually have cancer.
and Amanda would do these Idon't know if it was the
leukemia, lymphoma events, wherethere are people who actually
have cancer, who are involvedand you know, just
Tina (33:48):
Yeah.
Leah (33:49):
that's just.
Tina (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, the money is bad enough, but there's real
people getting hurt in in theend.
Leah (33:57):
And Bell Gibson, like one of the stories, at least in
apple cider vinegar, and I knowit was partially based on truth,
is, um, that woman that weprobably both saw in the first
episode and that was it.
but like her.
Husband was a journalist and shestarted following more natural
(34:20):
treatments because she became afollower of Bell Gibson.
And, you know, she was diagnosedwith breast cancer and decided
to do natural things.
And so like, I mean, it, itaffected people more than their
wallet.
Tina (34:34):
Yes.
Leah (34:34):
Like it affected people's lives, people and who knows how
many people out there.
Really bought into Bell Gibsonand said they weren't gonna do
treatment, and they bought herbook and just, yeah, it's
horrible.
Tina (34:49):
Yeah, so the, the Bell Gibson store that I did start
watching is on Netflix calledThe Search for Instagram's Worst
Con Artist.
And that is on her, but it's anactual documentary and it
predates the Apple CiderVinegar.
That journalist whose wifeactually had cancer and who
investigated her like ajournalistic investigation
investigation um, he.
(35:11):
It was very clear that he wasdisturbed because he knew that
this was highly suspicious, thatshe cleared herself of,
glioblastoma, and he wasdisturbed for that exact reason.
This is actually leading to harmif people are not going to do
their conventional therapy.
That could be, especially ifit's gonna be curative.
Um, which interestingly is thecase for some lymphomas.
Aggressive lymphomas can be.
Cured with chemotherapy.
(35:32):
I'd love for another, you know,treatment to be there that's
less toxic and more specific.
And we're getting there.
We're getting there withimmunotherapies.
But you know, whenever someonehas a diagnosis of cancer, the
big question on the table, andthis is always right outta the
gates, as soon as you get yourdiagnosis, is there a curative
treatment?
That I can do.
And if there's a curativetreatment that's been reliably
(35:54):
used, that's the direction youshould try to go in and then
make that as tolerable aspossible if it happens to be
chemo.
So to your point, the disservicewas who knows?
Who knows how many people took aa route of juicing or dietary
stuff and refused treatmentaltogether?
Leah (36:14):
Yeah.
Tina (36:15):
Or delayed it greatly, which we know delaying is not a
good idea.
I mean, that actually is provenin studies.
Delaying is a bad idea.
Get on it and, and if there'scure, do it, do that treatment
and you know, hopefully you comeout the other side without any
cancer.
But yeah, I think that's thebiggest offense of all of these
too.
I mean, money's just money, butanyone who bought that idea and
(36:38):
is no longer with us because ofit, is the true tragedy.
I'm sure that that's the case.
Leah (36:43):
Yeah.
Tina (36:44):
Yeah.
So the documentary, I think I'mgonna finish watching.
I just watched one of two ofthose episodes so far on her, on
Bell.
Leah (36:50):
Yeah.
I, I downloaded to watch thatone.
Um, I think I started watchingit.
I started getting confused,honestly.
Tina (36:57):
yeah, yeah, me too.
This was a lot to take in
Leah (36:59):
Yeah.
Tina (37:00):
cause they have overlaps, they all exploit people, take
advantage of vulnerabilities andhave absolutely no conscience at
all.
Leah (37:06):
Yeah.
And I think the only one who Youknow, who wasn't like a wellness
influencer, kind of, you know,claiming, Elizabeth Finch was
the one who like wasn't sort of,she was profiting off of her
history of cancer,
Tina (37:20):
Yes.
Leah (37:21):
but it wasn't the same as the other two.
Not that it was any better, itwas really warped, but
Tina (37:30):
Yeah, she kind of threw her.
Brother under the bus byaccusing him of things that he
didn't do.
Leah (37:36):
Oh my God.
No, because, because it wassomething that happened to
someone else, someone whoconfided in her, and then she
turned it into being her brotherand then claimed her brother had
killed himself after it wasactually, um, uh, her wife's ex,
husband killed himself.
Oh my God.
I'm not laughing.
I'm just like, so like you said,incredulous like.
(37:59):
And so then she yeah, completelyaccused her brother of these
like awful things.
Tina (38:04):
To her parents.
She even said it to her ownparents, they're like, huh?
Yeah.
I mean.
I actually thought that thatshow was very good.
It was decently done.
Anatomy of lies was, was welldone.
I like the documentary that I'mwatching on Belle Gibson.
I think apple cider vinegar isreally, maybe there's supposed
to be, leave a bad taste in mymouth, but it's apple cider
(38:26):
vinegar.
Um, and Scamanda is kind ofhokey, but it's,
Leah (38:31):
well, the said like, like we said, it's, it's more like an
A, B, C news special run out,like
Tina (38:37):
On that note, just that, that reminds me the podcast is
much better.
I thought the podcast wasactually better than the
Netflix, than the special onhulu.
Leah (38:46):
So, and the woman who did the podcast, she's in the, the
show, right?
She's in the, the TV show?
Yeah.
I just, it, it's that whole,like you said, like 60 minutes
kind of, no, more like not a 60minutes.
It's more like a 2020 kind of
Tina (39:00):
yes.
Leah (39:01):
one of those.
I mean, and you know, they havelike reenactment type things and
mixed in with the real footage.
Okay.
That's the other thing that Ithink is incredible is the real
footage,
Tina (39:13):
Uh oh.
Leah (39:14):
because this is the time of like, cell phones and
Instagram and all of that, andlike some of the footage that
they have, it's pretty amazingthat someone was recording this,
even anatomy of lies.
Like someone's got a camera outand they're filming.
You know, Elizabeth with herwife's kids and all of these
(39:34):
things, like, it's just, it'sreally crazy.
I mean, again, there is, youknow, this reenactment,
Tina (39:42):
Yes.
Leah (39:43):
but there's also actual footage and what they've
obtained is really incredible.
Yeah,
Tina (39:48):
yeah.
The actual footage is, more mystyle.
I wanna see the documentary.
I don't, I don't really need theartistic license.
These people's stories arealready.
Outlandish enough.
Leah (39:57):
on that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (39:59):
and I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor
Leah (40:00):
and this is the Cancer Pod.
Until next time.
Thanks for listening to theCancer Pod.
Remember to subscribe, reviewand rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates, and as always, this is
not medical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor beforechanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The Cancer Pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(40:22):
Leah Sherman, and by Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Music is by Kevin McLeod.
See you next time.
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