May 20, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of The Career Refresh, I talk with Eric Gillin—an executive who’s held just about every role in media: editor, product lead, head of sales. He calls himself “professional putty,” and he’s not wrong.
We cover:
- How to drive influence without a formal title
- How to lead teams through turbulence and build trust
- Why chasing the right problems beats chasing promotions
Show Guest
For over 20 years, Eric Gillin has been a force inside legacy media—driving innovation at Condé Nast, Hearst, Maxim, Discovery, and beyond. He’s partnered with over 100 editors-in-chief, from David Granger to David Remnick, to launch digital products that moved the needle.
He’s done nearly every media job out there—writing for Esquire, interviewing celebrities at Maxim, hosting a podcast at 23, launching a dozen apps at Hearst, creating the viral Bon Appétit video strategy, and becoming the first person to run Condé Nast’s U.S. ad sales team.
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Build a Leadership Identity That Earns Trust and Delivers Results.
- Gallup CliftonStrengths Corporate Workshops to build a strengths-based culture
- Team Dynamics training to increase retention, communication, goal setting, and effective decision-making
- Keynote Speaking
- Grab a personal Resume Refresh with Jill Griffin HERE
Follow @JillGriffinOffical on Instagram for daily inspiration
Connect with and follow Jill on LinkedIn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, this is the Career Refresh and I'm your host
, jill Griffin.
Today I am introducing you to afriend and former colleague,
eric Gillen.
For over 20 years, eric hasbeen driving innovation inside
legacy media companies likeConnie Nast, hearst.
He's partnered with over 100editors-in-chief, people like
(00:21):
David Granger to David Remnick,all to build new digital
products.
He's worked at the Street,maxim Discovery, hearst, connie
Nast and, I'm serious, he'sprobably done every job within
media you can think of fromserving as Connie Nast's first
person to run the US ad salesteam to also helping create the
(00:44):
bone appetite video strategythat, of course, went viral and
then launching dozens of apps atHearst, which is where I first
met him, and then writingfeatures for Esquire,
interviewing celebrities atMaxim and hosting a podcast at
the young age in personalfinance of 23.
We talk about an array of topicsthat it's not about the career
(01:07):
ladder and how buildinginfluence.
You can absolutely do it evenif you don't have a title when
you're leading through turbulenttimes.
What are some of the strategiesand what to be looking for?
We also talk about his values,about creating value and being
useful, what makes a leader andhow.
It's about the capacity tocreate change for others.
We also discussed some of thereal world challenges that are
(01:29):
showing up in today's workplace,like how do you lead when you
are younger and perhaps haveless tenure than some of your
direct reports, and how do youlead so that you get people and
build that followership?
And then, ultimately, we talkabout what leaders can do to
support teams when they'repost-paternal leave, bereavement
leave, any of the mental healthchallenges that people may have
(01:53):
within the workplace, how healso managed his own imposter
syndrome and what he did tosupport himself mentally during
some of those more challengingtimes.
So dig into this episode.
Eric is a delight to listen to.
He has amazing stories and wecould have gone on forever.
I know you're going to enjoythis one.
Ready, let's do it.
Welcome, eric, good to see youagain.
(02:17):
Oh, I should also, with fulldisclosure, say that Eric and I
were colleagues for a few yearswhen we were both at Hearst
Publishing.
So, and now I'll say with that,welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Good to see you, Jill .
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It's been a long time it's been a long time, been a
long time, so all right,prepping for this episode, I
loved reading that you started apersonal finance podcast when
you were just 23.
That makes me think.
Did you have a curiosity aboutfinance?
Was it about creating something?
Was it about making what's infront of you interesting?
(02:53):
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I was at thestreetcom and they told me they needed
something someone to coverpersonal finance and write a
column about it.
And so I would get a questionand have to go out and answer it
.
And the interesting thing is,you know, I'm making like
$30,000 a year with roommates.
I don't know what a mortgage is, I don't know what a reverse
mortgage is, which was for olderAmericans to pull equity out of
(03:17):
their house, so I learned allthis stuff about money that I
didn't know.
So all these questions, verywell could have been for me.
But you go out, you ask people,so in many ways I got the fresh
answer.
There was no bias.
I had no idea what.
I was doing, but I also ended uphosting a podcast at the same
time for Yahoo, called MartiniChat, where we would talk, and
(03:39):
so I was just in so far over myhead.
But ignorance being bliss, uh,I just kind of did it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I don't know, so go one step before that, did you
have some thoughts about whatyou wanted to do when you grew
up?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
uh, yeah, I wanted to be a music writer.
Like I was like a little punkrock hardcore kid who listened
to a lot of stuff and I wantedto be a really cool music writer
and be with the cool kids.
And I graduated Syracuse in1999 in the middle of the
dot-com bubble and there were nocool kid music jobs.
So I ended up going into financeand you know financial
(04:19):
journalism and one of the thingsthat when I speak to students
or other people about gettingyour career going, how you set
your goals, is super critical.
And, like my goal was, I didn'twant to live with my mom and
dad in Boston and I was going totake the first job that paid me
enough money to just not bethere and I preferred not to
(04:40):
work where I had been working,which is the kitchens and other
stuff.
Like I want to use my brain, Ihad it.
I sent out like 153 resumes.
This is back when, likemonstercom was a thing, I had
two callbacks.
One was for the streetcom andthe other was for the New
England Journal of Bone andJoint.
That needed someone to run itspaper and newsletters and that
one was based in Boston and so,but I, I I think a lot of people
(05:04):
are like, oh, I want to go workat Vogue or I want to go work
at the New Yorker.
I think that's like the finishline for your career, not where
you want to start, cause if youstart there, you don't in this
environment, you don't reallystay there.
Right, you leave there andmaybe you can boomerang back,
but I don't know.
I kind of feel like starting aplace where you know I did a
podcast, I did a column, Ilearned how to code because you
(05:31):
had to hand hack the HTML.
Back then I learned aboutfinance.
All of these things turned intohuge assets 10, 15, 20 years
later.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Music at that early stage, that's right.
Okay, so the streetcom, Maxim,discovery, Hearst, Connie Nast
You've worked at some of themost well-known household names
successful media companies again, as I said, from editorial to
product and ultimately leadingsales teams.
So your career has not beenthis straight line and this is
(05:59):
where we go to that professionalputty.
Tell me about that, because Iwant to dig in there a little
bit more.
I love that expression, but Iwant people to understand why
it's such a powerful approach toyour goals to lean into that
idea.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I think on some level , like some people like conflict
and some people don't, and Ilike to make people happy I'm
very much like a pleaser.
I want to feel useful in a job.
So oftentimes what would happenis I would end up tackling the
thing that no one else wanted toreally tackle, right Either.
It was just like at thevanguard of what they wanted to
do.
So if I'm in a room full ofmagazine editors in 2006 and
(06:35):
Facebook comes out and you're amagazine editor, what do you
would you rather do?
Would you rather spend a monthworking on the front of book,
get it perfect, impress youreditor in-chief, or do you want
to figure out facebook?
And I was like I'll figure outfacebook like this is cool.
So you know, even at thestreetcom I was inventing like
macros to help people code theirhtml better, because if you
(06:56):
forgot to call close a bold tagat that point, the entire
website would be bold right, ohmy god, I remember that very
different era and now and nowthey.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Now we vibe code within you know chat.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So I am always trying to go to the problem.
That is the most pressingproblem.
And then I always try to be theperson who and I feel like in
my career I've actually been aman without a country I live
between the teams, right.
Oftentimes I talk to people whoare trying to hire me.
I'm like I'm not the tile, I'mthe grout, you know what I mean.
Like I live between thesethings just because it's always
(07:34):
been really about lateral, like,especially being a digital
native, somebody who's only kindof had digital jobs, you kind
of have to understand howeverything fits together to be
able to do it.
You can't really live in a silo.
So, again, I've been reallyfocused on like where's the big
problem?
So, you know, I've worked onCMSs as an editor because the
(07:55):
tools were important and if youdidn't have tools that were
built the right way, I couldn'twrite 20 blog posts a day.
So, like, that kind of workpushes you out of whatever core
you think you're in and startsto just evolve you into a
different direction.
And if you don't mind sheddingskin and being like you know
what I'm not really writinganymore, but I'm doing this
other thing that is interesting,and that was always more
interesting to me.
It was more interesting to meto be helpful or build things
(08:16):
than it was for me to like I'mgoing to be a writer.
I have friends who are writersand they stayed writers.
That wasn't where my pleasurewas coming from, and so I just
kind of I liked solving problems, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
So for our listeners, I would summarize some of the
mindset that I'm hearing Erictalk about is the mindset and
actions of like be useful, becurious, be of service, find
problems that maybe feel sticky,but you're up for a challenge
that really then ends up settingyourself apart because you're
being helpful to your colleaguesand your leadership and your
(08:48):
management because you'rehelping solve some of those
problems.
Yeah, I never see anything elselike that.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Even if it's not in your job description, right.
Like I think about my path togo from basically a writer and
then, 20 years later, I'm likethe head of US ad sales economy
and asked across all of thebrands the biggest problem in
media is how you fund it.
Right.
And so, even when I wasn'tdoing that job, just because I
was like okay, like who's thebiggest guy in jail, I got to
(09:15):
fight.
Right.
And when you're trying to be awriter and the HTML doesn't work
right and the CMS is broken,that's the biggest guy in jail.
Right.
And when you don't have a videostrategy and everyone's putting
in a video.
So, even though it wasn't my job, I wanted to kind of be in the
room to give the point of viewfrom whatever function I was in
at that time, to help the peoplewhose real role it was.
(09:35):
So I also comment this fromlike a support staff mentality,
and I still do.
As a leader, I believe that myteams, like don't work for me.
I believe that I work for them,and so thinking about yourself
is like I am trying to be themost useful, helpful person, to
become indispensable in my job,even if that meant being outside
(09:56):
of my function and I just hadto be very careful to do that in
a respectful manner where Iwasn't telling someone, hey,
you're doing it wrong.
It was more like how can I help, like what's in your way, how
can I assist you, and I thinkpeople really appreciate that,
because you become a safe person, not a political person.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
It also reminds me of the idea that I believe, again
leaders, at any level, theirrole is to create capacity for
others.
That's one of the signs of aleader that you are.
Whatever that mountain is,whatever that challenge is,
you're there and you're movingmountains to create capacity for
others, to create that change,so that, I think, is a really
(10:37):
powerful place and a place thatpeople can think about leaning
in.
Here's the question, though, ifmy job description is going to
weigh me on these, or my jobdescription is going to weigh me
on these, or my performancereview is going to weigh me
against these 10 or so things.
How did you keep yourselfwithin the swim lane of well,
this is what I'm getting paid toperform against?
(10:57):
Yeah, I see these challengesthat aren't in my core
responsibility, but they'reneeded.
How did you think aboutdividing your time between how
you're being measured andpotentially compensated versus
what's all outside, as you say,the grout?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I mean, a lot of our work takes place in meetings and
so you just kind of have to becareful about how many of those
extracurricular meetings you endup in.
You know what I mean.
I mean it's just that likeoftentimes it was just showing
up offering a point of view that, like I represented a team you
know like somehow like beingpart of edit right, it was
(11:38):
really critical for an edit teamto show up at a CMS meeting,
but like no one in thatmanagement system.
For anybody, it's a CMS but noone really wanted to show up to
that meeting from editorialRight and so like I would do
that.
It was still part of my job andI just had to like they were
just so grateful to have a realpartner to like answering email,
(11:58):
like so much of that huge valuestuff is.
It's really hard to understandor nuance or get information, so
I found myself just being likean emissary or an ambassador.
You don't have to do an awfullot there of like work.
You know I'm not coding it.
They just need a point of viewor perspective or someone to
like help represent that.
(12:18):
So a lot of like that stuffthat is extracurricular.
I was really focused on my job,but what I find some people do
is they like you ask them to dosomething and they say like well
, I don't have the bandwidth,I'm too busy, I'm too harried,
like I would never say that youknow, you know what I mean and
so, but a lot of people wouldshut it down and I see this
happen over and over and over inwork environments.
(12:39):
And then if you become theperson who just says yes, like
I'll give you five minutes, I'llget a lunch, I'll get a cup of
coffee.
That's the, theentrepreneurship where that's
like how you work in internal.
Cohort of people to like get abrand where you're helpful.
Cohort of people to like get abrand where you're helpful.
You just show up consistentlyand don't like dump on people
when you're having a prettystressful day.
(13:00):
Just help them if they ask.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, so it's professional brand, it's
building trust, it'scollaboration.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
That's what comes out of that yeah, you'll like
people ask and if you get areputation as someone who will
come when asked, everyone willcome to you, right, and then to
your point.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
You're now indispensable because everyone's
coming.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's right.
You're creating value every day.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
All right, I want to get a little specific though.
So can you walk me through atime you know again, you've
worked at top media.
Companies within what you canshare publicly, companies within
what you can share publicly.
Can you walk me, maybe like aConnie Nast or Hearst, where
you've navigated those internalstructures to bring a solution
to life?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
There are lots of them.
You know I would say that fromthe sales side.
You know I was at LifestyleCollection, lifestyle Division,
which was kind of my home court.
I had done food.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
This is at Coney Nass .
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Coney Nass.
Yeah, so I had done, you know,bon Appetit, I'd done Epicurious
, I'd done a lot of food andvideo stuff.
I'd been pretty successful onthe content side.
I was a little bit of a digitalgeneral manager.
So I was also sort of workingwith the Architectural Digest
team and the Conde Nast Travelerteam, sort of functioning like
product, a little bit of a GMhelping make business cases, and
I had been doing the sales teamthen from that.
(14:21):
So I knew that was all I hadknown.
And they finally uprooted me andmoved me to a totally different
sales team called the CultureDivision, which was totally new
brands.
It was the New Yorker, it wasWired, it was Pitchfork Totally
new team.
It was pitched for Totally newteam.
Didn't know anyone there right,and totally new categories to
have to sell accounts right Auto, media, entertainment, business
technology, finance, spirits aspart of the group, and these
(14:42):
are very experienced salespeople20 years of experience.
I've got one official year andthe team had been struggling.
We had done a lot of reorgs andso they were not the highest
performing team they were.
They were struggling a littlebit to feel like a division or
like a team and I remember goingin there and meeting everyone,
(15:06):
and I think the thing that Iwanted to do upfront cause I get
the sense that people were,they didn't know me and they
were afraid of me.
Yeah, and if you know me, it'ssort of like I'm the most
approachable, whatever.
And so I had a big long thinkand I was like you know what?
I'm going to just tell them whoI am really.
Quickly Like, here's me.
You're never going to catch me.
Flip a table If you need me tobe angry, for you to feel like I
(15:30):
care, like you're never goingto see it, but I care deeply
thing too.
I care deeply.
I'm going to show up in yourwork.
I'm not going to micromanageyou, but I'm going to be in the
weeds with you, like that's mymanagement style, and you're
going to teach me about yourcategories Cause I don't know
this stuff.
But I'm going to have your backand move mountains for you, but
(15:55):
I don't tolerate peoplefighting each other and I just
like I had a code I started withI'm not going to get angry, so
you can feel safe, I'm going towork very hard.
You're going to teach me, right, some humility in there.
And then I finally said we'regoing to perform and I need you
to buy in.
And it was like a very clearthing and you could see some
people could go four for fourwith me and some people could,
and the people who couldn't gofour for four, it was okay.
(16:17):
You know what I mean.
Like they, they found their ownway out at some point.
Yeah, they self-selected out,right, but but it was.
But I found that.
That and I found out later,years later, that like that was
one of the most memorableexperiences they had with me.
Like that worked, that went along way.
That clarity basically got ussix months down the road, and
then you have to figure out anyof those things on their own
(16:38):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So, eric, what you're saying is making me think of
something that so many peopleare, I'm going to say, in the 45
plus crowd are experiencingtoday that they're getting a new
leader that may have lesstenure, but it doesn't mean they
don't have fantastic experience.
So your new supervisor or bossmight be younger than you, might
(17:03):
have less tenure in the spaceor in that particular expertise,
but is bringing tremendousexpertise to the table.
How did you I mean, you talkedabout it just a little bit but
how did you continue to nurturethose relationships so that
those people didn't feeluncomfortable or, um, or even
(17:23):
like you won them over?
They didn't feel they didn't,they didn't come at you like the
professor, which is a lot ofwhat happens in that
organization.
Well, okay, you might be incharge, but I have more
experience, I have more wisdom,and then again it just upsets
the entire opportunity forcollaboration.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You know a couple of things, and I'll end on the
major one.
Last, I guess One is you're insales.
You're getting your ass kickedall the time, right, and I think
that one of the things that Ireally like to do is when
someone is coming to me and theyexpect me to lose my goddamn
mind and I am the nicest,kindest, least frustrated, best
(17:59):
person of myself they feel somuch better about that, and so I
really try to be like.
Big problem is a bigopportunity for you to really be
calm and lead, and so whensomeone has a really big problem
, be like you know what this ison me.
I own this.
Your number is my number, right, so I'm not going to yell at
you.
If you have a bad day, let'sget in there and fix it, because
(18:22):
everything is figureoutable.
And then the second thing wasthe pandemic.
I got this job three monthsbefore the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Four months before the pandemic, and so that was
also another time where it waslike you got chin checked super
hard and I was.
I was like, guys, we're goingto go home.
We're probably because we werepart of like a test pilot, we
didn't know we were going to behome home when we were sent home
.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So, guys, we're in New York City with a test pilot.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah for sure, and so I think the pandemic really
helped us kind of trauma bondwith each other and I still feel
very close to them.
But I think consistency is key.
The leaders that I see, reallyespecially the younger ones, the
younger ones who are dumpingtheir emotional stuff on their
direct reports 23 year oldscannot do that right.
They can also be totallyconsistent and totally mature.
(19:19):
So I do think that, like for me, if I had a boss who was
younger than me, experiencewouldn't matter.
It's just how do they handle acrisis right?
Do they need everyone elsearound them to carry them in a
crisis, or can they actually beconsistent?
And so I really wanted to pridemyself as a leader on being the
same person on a good day thatI was on a bad day, because then
(19:40):
people can really trust you,that like they can come to you
with anything.
I think that for me, would behow I would gauge a new leader
is like their emotional maturity.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, that can come at anyage.
It doesn't necessarily comejust with tenure or wisdom or
chronological age.
It can come at any age, at 23,.
Html.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I was like a duck in a pond and I could see these
people who were older than mehad no idea and could not get it
, but for me, building websitesand apps and everything else
(20:22):
that happened in the last 25years, that was a lived
experience for me.
I didn't know any different orbetter, so I couldn't question
it.
I am too old now to have AI bea wholly lived experience where
I'm going to vibe code somethingmyself.
Someone younger than me isgoing to be native to this right
and the way that I was nativeto digital.
That experience for them, thatmindset, their ability to think
(20:46):
more elastically that is a hugeadvantage in why someone could
end up being above me.
I can't do anything about that.
I can't change my brain.
I can't change the experience.
Well, I would argue as a coachyou can change your brain, but
I'm upscaling, but I do thinkthat, like you, can't unknow
what you know.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
There's too many circumstances you can't change.
So your choice is how do youwant?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
to embark on this, but you can respect them for
their ability to kind of thinkdifferently than you can.
You know what I mean.
And do they react?
The right way is the leadershiptest, though.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, so, going back to something you said earlier,
when you're taking on some ofthese problems, I have to
imagine there's more than one.
So what was sort of the signalor the criteria that you use to
decide?
Okay, I lean in there, that one.
If it's still an issue nextmonth, I'll I'll tap that.
(21:37):
But I gotta start here.
How did what was sort of thatinternal criteria?
And again, I know some ofthat's going to be specific to
the company you work for, butI'm thinking about um takeaways
for our listeners, like how dothey sort of weigh?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
yeah, you should weigh in so I would like what is
the biggest blocker?
Right?
So, like I know what I want todo and like what is the main
thing preventing me from doingit Right?
So I'm in my living room Ididn't really like financial
journalism and I wanted tolaunch a website, and what was
the biggest blocker?
I had no idea how to reallylaunch and host a website, and
(22:11):
this is before you had onlineservices that would do it.
So this is during LimeWire, Istole a copy of Dreamweaver.
I went online, I learnedDreamweaver and then for three
years I hand hacked a websiteout of my living room.
But the big blocker was I don'tknow how to do this one thing,
and I think that getting reallygood at understanding what is
(22:31):
the very next biggest problemthat you have.
And so when I was at Esquire,the big blocker we had was that
we had to migrate a website offof iVillage onto a custom
platform Right, and so Icouldn't, no matter how good my
content plan was, right, and sowhat some people choose to do,
that's like a path, right.
(22:51):
I went and leaned in to makesure that the cms was on point
and got there faster through myhelp and participation, so we
could relaunch esquire.
Other people would sit back andbe like I have a content plan.
These are the 16 writers I wantto get on board.
These are my blog posts, theseare my rubrics.
Where are you with the cms?
I can't do my job until you dothe cms.
(23:13):
So so you have a choice, right,you can lean in and help them
get there faster, even thoughit's not your job.
And this is where I think thatlike this is in order for me to
get to my thing and answers yourother question from earlier.
So that's another example,right.
There was another time where itwas I'm in product and I'm just
supposed to do Epicurious andBon Appetit and there was no one
(23:34):
doing product at CNT orArchitectural Digest, and they
told me hey, you need to helpout here too, right?
And I could be like okay, Iwill, because you can't say no.
But I could have just like paidthem lip service.
But Amy Astley is a greateditor.
I get to work with a greateditor, let me go help her out.
Pilar Guzman is a great editor,so I get to work with two more
great editors.
Understand how their brainswork.
(23:56):
You know what I mean.
And so this is the kind ofthing where you do have a choice
in work whether or not you'regoing to lean in or lean out.
And I find that a lot of peopleare so hypervigilant about the
exact job description.
A number of young peopleespecially come to me.
The job description, it's thereto help hire, but after that it
kind of goes away.
(24:17):
You know what I mean, or atleast it's not as literal as
they want to make it, right.
Right, it's not a scorecard.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
And hanging out with enough recruiters and HR people.
On occasion, a lot of jobdescriptions are just ridiculous
.
Who wrote this?
Did someone who actually workin the job write this?
Or was this written by a thirdparty?
Like it's not necessarilydirectly impacting the business
or the value that needs to becreated?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
right or they're.
They're so you know.
It's sort of like if you had todo a job description for like
husband, like I mean I guess.
But it doesn't get into.
Like you want, you like likewhat kind of husband you really
want?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Right, right, You're really going to fall in love.
It's just the core.
The core part is not that youwant yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, okay.
So one of the things you and Ihave talked about before, it's
sort of the job changes, pivotsreturnships, parents coming back
after paternity and maternityleave that last one.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
What'd you say?
That last one, paternity andmaternity leave comebacks.
That is real.
No one talks about that, sotalk about it.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Tell us about that.
Tell us, you have two.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I have two, yeah, there are three and seven,
almost seven when, when, when myyoungest, arlo um, was born,
coming back from that paternityleave, I had such imposter
syndrome.
I kind of always struggle withimposter syndrome, um, but like
(25:55):
I actually had to go back totherapy, I got a therapist who
also functions like a life coacha little bit, just to get my
head on straight, because like,they're moving at this game
speed that's like a millionmiles an hour and you're like
sleep deprived and I alreadyfelt like you know, I'm with the
best sales team on earth atconda and I've got two and a
half years of experience, butyou know it's like I don't rate
(26:18):
and that was.
that was really really tough.
But I don't think people spendenough time talking about how
hard it is to come back to work.
It's almost way harder actuallythan just getting a new job and
coming in fresh.
It's so much harder.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So, in addition to what you did for yourself, which
I commend getting therapy orcoaching and getting that
support as a leader what wouldyou tell other leaders to do for
their team that's coming backfrom maternity or paternity
leave?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I think just an acknowledgement.
I think a lot of people theyacknowledge the birth of a child
, but as someone who now had acouple of people like they, they
acknowledge the birth of achild, but as someone who now
had a couple kids, I'll beenough.
It gets really hard to have akid six months, precisely when
you go back to work, right likethe early days of it and again
(27:08):
I'm the man in the relationship,so like there's a lot of
physical healing that has tohappen for women and I'm not
short shrifting that but fromlike a parenting, child rearing,
like there's not a lot ofacknowledgement.
That like actually six to 18months is like super hard until
they get a little bit more yeah.
You know what I mean.
And so I think there's so muchacknowledgement of the pregnancy
(27:32):
is hard and giving birth ishard or whatever.
But I would just, as a leaderI've just set them aside and be
like, look, this is really hardperiod too.
I know that you're jugglingmore now than you ever have.
Like, I'm here for you, youknow, and if you need to take a
beat or you need to check outearly or whatever and like, try
to give them as much flexibilityas your return to office, slash
HR overlords will let you do isyour return to office.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Slash HR overlords will let you do.
Yeah, and I'm just saying thesame thing for grief, right,
there's a difference betweenbereavement and grief.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Right, you might need a couple of days off for the
immediate impact of the death,but then there's also ongoing
things that happen over the nextmonths that you might need to
do or deal with, and it's waysthat we can also be be again
real leaders, creating capacityfor others totally I've lost
both parents, right, includingincluding my dad, like recently,
(28:23):
a couple years ago, and I thinkone of the things like pay
attention, pay attention tofather's day or mother's day,
right, pay attention if you'reaware not the exact anniversary,
you don't have to be that weird, but you know it was may last
year.
Yeah, check in at the beginningof the month just because may
1st.
But, hey, I know you're comingup on this, you can't be wrong
then, right, you either nail itexactly, but I do think things
like that, like I think, areimportant, like how you doing.
(28:45):
I know it was a year ago, yeah,like I, I just those types of
thoughtfulness like you will beremembered by your people
forever.
But, moreover, like I don'tknow why I have to say this it's
okay to be a human being atwork and not have to be
someone's best friend.
Yeah, like there's a middleground between we're going to
(29:08):
share this intense moment andI'm going to overshare and tell
you everything about my life,and, just like a quick check-in,
that's like hey, I care aboutyou, how are you doing?
Yeah, yeah, and I think thatpeople learning that like little
light touch.
Can I get you a cup of coffee?
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like, and it doesn't have to bethis.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
It doesn't have to be .
I had so many.
My brother tragically passedaway last year and yeah, it was
rough, thank you.
And I've had people now say tome like I didn't want to ask you
cause I didn't want to upsetyou and like I understand why
that.
But I also am like you're never, like I'm okay if I shed a tear
(29:47):
in front of you because youasked me about my brother, like
I'm not, I'm not, I don't know.
I just I just feel like that'sthe point that you can be a
human, as you say, and notnecessarily be best friends, but
we can find the compassion forothers and the empathy for
others and hold space forsomeone, and I think that's what
we need more of in leaders.
I mean, we came up well.
(30:10):
I'll speak for myself as a GenXer coming up in a time where
there wasn't flexibility and itwas just grind it out.
See you tomorrow.
You know you have a big win oneday.
There's no coasting.
What value creating in thisnext 24 hours, and for the good
and bad of it.
It made us tremendouslysuccessful and strategic, but it
also I think a lot of Gen Xersthen struggle with younger
(30:33):
generations because they have adifferent work style, and
neither is right or wrong.
It's again creating thatempathy and that capacity to
allow people to succeed but alsofind ways to nurture them that
still drives against.
Whatever the goal is right, weare running a business, but but
making sure that you're creatinga space where people aren't in
(30:55):
fear or panicked that they can'tdo their job because they're
experiencing exhaustion.
I mean, you have two kids.
I imagine the second child isexponential, not just double,
like all of a sudden Thursdayyou're coming in.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean, I would say, like the role right, you're
tapping on something that, likeI did when I took over culture,
and I've done it a number oftimes when I unified the US
sales team at Condé as well yourjob as a leader is to create an
ecosystem.
Your job is to create weatherright, it's not about points on
the board.
I need to create an ecosystemby which people feel comfortable
(31:31):
taking risks, and to do that bychecking in on them.
They start to feel safe withyou, right, and if they feel
safe with you, then they'll runthrough a wall.
That's this next generation ofpeople, right?
The previous generation ofpeople.
I'm a Gen Xer too right, it waslike I don't care how you feel
about it.
I'm telling you to run througha wall, so run through the wall,
(31:51):
right, I'm taking the risk.
So you're taking the risk.
That's really top down.
It's really messed up, but Idon't.
I mean, listen, it is what itis.
I don't think that it works nowbecause all of the business
models post-digital I think it'sactually a digital thing that
disrupted it.
It's not so linear like I'mrunning a factory and it's
(32:12):
literally a conveyor belt.
That is straight.
It's an ecosystem.
Now there are too many movingpieces.
It's not this verticallyaligned industry, it's all
horizontal, it's a mesh industry.
It's all horizontal, it's amesh.
And so I think when you'redealing with a cross functional
mesh, you have to create safety,that people feel like they can
talk to each other, that theycan be bottoms up.
(32:34):
I don't think you can run thesethings top down and I think you
look at some of our businessleaders today that are trying to
be super, super top down.
They're not really getting theresults right, like the.
The leaders that and it's likethat book, good and great.
The leaders that actually dothe best are the ones who are
kind of anonymous, kind ofsoft-spoken, and everyone there
(32:55):
feels pretty safe.
So I think by checking in onpeople and you make them feel
safe, they're going to bewilling to take risks and if
they don't take risks they can'tsucceed.
So I think a lot of buildingbuildings that have bad leaders
who are very top-down pushing,no one in their day-to-day is
taking many risks.
They're kind of working to ruleand then they're out.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I think that's also been classified as soft versus
hard power.
They're pushing with hard powerversus soft power of really
understanding what teams andyour customers need.
All right, a couple morequestions and then I will let
you go.
So in these times of likethere's such major
transformation, I mean I'm tiredof kind of saying that we live
(33:35):
in unique times.
But if you think about you knowyou and I as digital neighbors
coming into the workforce andyou know I was there a couple of
hours before digital happenedand then creating that change
and figuring out how do weintegrate digital into
publishing, um, and theneventually you know video.
But thinking that throughyou've led during these times.
(33:56):
How did you stay grounded andsane?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
uh, I didn't know that I always did.
So we can start there.
You know, I certainly had mymoments.
I think I had to be reallyhonest with something like I
hate change, I hate likeinstability, and I think just by
(34:19):
continuously understanding thatI am uncomfortable, you can be
like, okay, well, discomfort isgrowth, and the thing I keep in
my mind is like I do not likegoing to the gym, but if I go to
the gym and I'm sore, it'sbecause I went to the gym, which
is good for me, yes, and so allof these things that I was
doing, even though it made meuncomfortable, even though it
(34:40):
was unpleasant, it was justgrowth, and I it got to a point
where, after about 15 years, Icould look back on how
uncomfortable I was for all thestuff and I was like, oh well,
this is my career.
My career is beinguncomfortable, and no one likes
being uncomfortable, so youcan't be surprised.
So am I seeking something thatI don't like?
And I was like well, I like theoutcome of when.
(35:01):
I survived this uncomfortablemoment and I was like, well,
maybe that's just the trick,like you can be very upfront
with yourself that I actuallydon't like change at all, but by
being the person who's willingto undergo change and helping
others undergo change, I wasable to reframe it and being
like well, if I can make it alittle bit easier for everyone
else around me, we can all gothrough it together.
(35:21):
And so I wasn't a martyr, I wasjust an interpreter.
I was just helping everyoneelse do the same thing I was
doing.
And then we were all equallyuncomfortable and I kind of feel
like that's been my trick isthat I'm I'm able to be
uncomfortable.
I know it, I don't like itanymore today, whether it's
public speaking or whatever.
And I just even acknowledgingthat because I think so many
(35:44):
people want their leaders to belike bulletproof or fearless,
and I'm not, and I think thatthey feel the same way I do, and
that makes it easier becausewe're all in it together yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
So what I'm taking away from that is change.
Well, things are going to happeneither way and you can sit and
resist it, and that's going tobe uncomfortable exactly or you
can do it and you're still goingto be uncomfortable, but at
least there's a shared learningor a shared outcome or a shared
win with the people that you'redoing with and you're pushing it
(36:15):
through, versus staying in yourdirty diaper and not and not
creating any change you know,also, like I'm not sentimental,
I mean, I love things, but I'mnot I've I'm not somebody very
sentimental which helps I lovethings, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'm not somebody who's very sentimental which
helps me, because everythingthat we have done in our careers
and I would argue it's beenthis way 250 years of the
Industrial Revolution it's all aone-way door.
It's all a one-way door.
I used to joke that if you gavesome of the early editors that
I worked with a billion dollars,they'd invent time travel, not
a better internet.
They would just go back andreplay the last 10 years.
(36:55):
And so I just think that, likeyou know, tomorrow has to be
better than today, right, likethere's all the one way door.
We're not going back.
So it's sort of I like the wayyou put it, like there's just an
inevitability of it.
We're gonna have to do thisanyways.
So, but I do think the badadvice is like we'll get
comfortable with it.
Well, no, that's not helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
But I don't think being comfortable at least I'll
speak for myself I don't thinkbeing comfortable has really
ever created the change.
I'm not saying I'm anexcruciating pain, but I don't
think me being comfortable withthe exception of, like, my yummy
bed has ever delivered a resultthat I want to share or talk
(37:30):
about or feel proud about.
Right, it's that that itchy onthe inside.
Oh my God, that you figure outhow to get.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
it's okay to be a little scared, especially at
work.
It's okay.
You know what I mean.
Like the stakes are lower thanyou might think sometimes, right
, right.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
So you mentioned a little earlier on that you just
finished a like mini AI MBA.
Tell us what you're thinkingabout or onto next.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I am loving.
I'm advising a whole bunch ofsmall companies.
There's one called Edamom thatis doing AI in the nutrition
space and I just I have the timeto learn and I think that's the
other part of a good careerYou're always learning, even if
you're the CEO of the company,you're going to learn.
So I'm just learning and, like,AI was something I dabbled in
but didn't have enough time tolike actually think about, and
(38:28):
so the way I learned was reallyby hands on.
So I've been able to build myown GPTs and learn some ways to
do it, and I need to know enoughto be dangerous and I've gotten
there.
So I'm advising, you know, someearly news startups, talking to
people, consulting with a fewcompanies, and you know, for me,
I think it's been, it's beenfun to just like talk to a whole
bunch.
I'm not I don't consider myselfa great networker, Um, and so
(38:51):
it's been great to just be ableto network and spend a lot of
time talking to people andlistening and just learning
again, Uh and so, yeah, there,there's a lot of really exciting
things happening out there andthis point of transition is,
it's wild, the things that AIwill do and can do.
It's truly.
It reminds me of 1999.
(39:12):
Like you know, it cannot beunderstated enough.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, and I would even just say, as you know, yes,
I'm an executive coach, but Irun a company and, as part of my
company, there are and it's notcontent it does not write my
content company there are andit's not content it does not
write my content, but there areso many things that my economics
and profit would not be thesame if I had to approach it
(39:37):
indifferently.
So where AI has really helpedme in ways it cannot emplace the
human connection I still havepeople on my team, but it has
definitely helped all of us inways that I just I couldn't
accomplish as much as I could,as lean as I am.
Yeah, otherwise just wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
People use mental models a lot to kind of make
sense of things, right, it'slike a way to be efficient
thinkers.
This is not hammer and nail atall, like this is so much bigger
than that.
This is like the discovery ofgerms or fire, you know what I
mean.
Like it's just conceptually onsuch a different level that I
think that even now, right, like, oh, it transcribes my meetings
(40:15):
.
It's sort of like, oh, how cute, you know, but where it's
really heading is somewhere very, very different than that.
And again, this is why I have alot of respect for people
younger than me with plasticbrains, like they're going to
understand and get to thatreality.
First, my job is to supportthem.
(40:35):
Right, because there's a wholelot of grownup stuff.
I know that they don't, butthere's a whole lot of future
stuff they're going to feel thatI can, and so my job is to help
them with their feelings.
You know what I mean.
And that's kind of the approachthey have now is that, like
people who are creatives orpeople who are innovators, need
(40:55):
someone that they can lean onwell as a support to make cogent
business decisions, but alsopractical emotional ones.
This is very stressful rightnow to try to grow this business
because it's shifting too fastfor anyone to keep up with in
the stakes field.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Well, it's trying to catch a falling knife right,
that expression, it's like don'tor do or no.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Or grab a glove.
You can't sit still.
So we're definitely in thefrothy petscom era of AI
businesses.
Sure, and you don't want tokind of have your hand in the
sock puppet at the Super Bowl,but at the same time, I'm
talking about petscom 25 yearslater.
And they weren't wrong, theywere just early.
So I just again like the.
(41:39):
The thing that has been superfun is I never thought I would
grown up in the room and like,somewhere along the line you
become a grown up.
It's enjoyable.
It's enjoyable and you know,the last few months have been
great, just consulting and, youknow, figuring things out.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Well, Eric, I thank you for being here and for
everyone.
If you have questions, you canemail me at hello at
jillgriffincoachingcom.
We will get them to Eric.
We will bring Eric back becausehe's smiling and I know he'll
come back and answer questionsif you have them and, as always,
embrace possibility, beintentional and kind.
We'll see you soon.
(42:18):
Thanks, Eric.
Thank you.
Hey, this is the Career Refresh and I'm your host
, jill Griffin.
Today I am introducing you to afriend and former colleague,
eric Gillen.
For over 20 years, eric hasbeen driving innovation inside
legacy media companies likeConnie Nast, hearst.
He's partnered with over 100editors-in-chief, people like
(00:21):
David Granger to David Remnick,all to build new digital
products.
He's worked at the Street,maxim Discovery, hearst, connie
Nast and, I'm serious, he'sprobably done every job within
media you can think of fromserving as Connie Nast's first
person to run the US ad salesteam to also helping create the
(00:44):
bone appetite video strategythat, of course, went viral and
then launching dozens of apps atHearst, which is where I first
met him, and then writingfeatures for Esquire,
interviewing celebrities atMaxim and hosting a podcast at
the young age in personalfinance of 23.
We talk about an array of topicsthat it's not about the career
(01:07):
ladder and how buildinginfluence.
You can absolutely do it evenif you don't have a title when
you're leading through turbulenttimes.
What are some of the strategiesand what to be looking for?
We also talk about his values,about creating value and being
useful, what makes a leader andhow.
It's about the capacity tocreate change for others.
We also discussed some of thereal world challenges that are
(01:29):
showing up in today's workplace,like how do you lead when you
are younger and perhaps haveless tenure than some of your
direct reports, and how do youlead so that you get people and
build that followership?
And then, ultimately, we talkabout what leaders can do to
support teams when they'repost-paternal leave, bereavement
leave, any of the mental healthchallenges that people may have
(01:53):
within the workplace, how healso managed his own imposter
syndrome and what he did tosupport himself mentally during
some of those more challengingtimes.
So dig into this episode.
Eric is a delight to listen to.
He has amazing stories and wecould have gone on forever.
I know you're going to enjoythis one.
Ready, let's do it.
Welcome, eric, good to see youagain.
(02:17):
Oh, I should also, with fulldisclosure, say that Eric and I
were colleagues for a few yearswhen we were both at Hearst
Publishing.
So, and now I'll say with that,welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Good to see you, Jill .
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It's been a long time it's been a long time, been a
long time, so all right,prepping for this episode, I
loved reading that you started apersonal finance podcast when
you were just 23.
That makes me think.
Did you have a curiosity aboutfinance?
Was it about creating something?
Was it about making what's infront of you interesting?
(02:53):
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I was at thestreetcom and they told me they needed
something someone to coverpersonal finance and write a
column about it.
And so I would get a questionand have to go out and answer it
.
And the interesting thing is,you know, I'm making like
$30,000 a year with roommates.
I don't know what a mortgage is, I don't know what a reverse
mortgage is, which was for olderAmericans to pull equity out of
(03:17):
their house, so I learned allthis stuff about money that I
didn't know.
So all these questions, verywell could have been for me.
But you go out, you ask people,so in many ways I got the fresh
answer.
There was no bias.
I had no idea what.
I was doing, but I also ended uphosting a podcast at the same
time for Yahoo, called MartiniChat, where we would talk, and
(03:39):
so I was just in so far over myhead.
But ignorance being bliss, uh,I just kind of did it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I don't know, so go one step before that, did you
have some thoughts about whatyou wanted to do when you grew
up?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
uh, yeah, I wanted to be a music writer.
Like I was like a little punkrock hardcore kid who listened
to a lot of stuff and I wantedto be a really cool music writer
and be with the cool kids.
And I graduated Syracuse in1999 in the middle of the
dot-com bubble and there were nocool kid music jobs.
So I ended up going into financeand you know financial
(04:19):
journalism and one of the thingsthat when I speak to students
or other people about gettingyour career going, how you set
your goals, is super critical.
And, like my goal was, I didn'twant to live with my mom and
dad in Boston and I was going totake the first job that paid me
enough money to just not bethere and I preferred not to
(04:40):
work where I had been working,which is the kitchens and other
stuff.
Like I want to use my brain, Ihad it.
I sent out like 153 resumes.
This is back when, likemonstercom was a thing, I had
two callbacks.
One was for the streetcom andthe other was for the New
England Journal of Bone andJoint.
That needed someone to run itspaper and newsletters and that
one was based in Boston and so,but I, I I think a lot of people
(05:04):
are like, oh, I want to go workat Vogue or I want to go work
at the New Yorker.
I think that's like the finishline for your career, not where
you want to start, cause if youstart there, you don't in this
environment, you don't reallystay there.
Right, you leave there andmaybe you can boomerang back,
but I don't know.
I kind of feel like starting aplace where you know I did a
podcast, I did a column, Ilearned how to code because you
(05:31):
had to hand hack the HTML.
Back then I learned aboutfinance.
All of these things turned intohuge assets 10, 15, 20 years
later.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Music at that early stage, that's right.
Okay, so the streetcom, Maxim,discovery, Hearst, Connie Nast
You've worked at some of themost well-known household names
successful media companies again, as I said, from editorial to
product and ultimately leadingsales teams.
So your career has not beenthis straight line and this is
(05:59):
where we go to that professionalputty.
Tell me about that, because Iwant to dig in there a little
bit more.
I love that expression, but Iwant people to understand why
it's such a powerful approach toyour goals to lean into that
idea.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I think on some level , like some people like conflict
and some people don't, and Ilike to make people happy I'm
very much like a pleaser.
I want to feel useful in a job.
So oftentimes what would happenis I would end up tackling the
thing that no one else wanted toreally tackle, right Either.
It was just like at thevanguard of what they wanted to
do.
So if I'm in a room full ofmagazine editors in 2006 and
(06:35):
Facebook comes out and you're amagazine editor, what do you
would you rather do?
Would you rather spend a monthworking on the front of book,
get it perfect, impress youreditor in-chief, or do you want
to figure out facebook?
And I was like I'll figure outfacebook like this is cool.
So you know, even at thestreetcom I was inventing like
macros to help people code theirhtml better, because if you
(06:56):
forgot to call close a bold tagat that point, the entire
website would be bold right, ohmy god, I remember that very
different era and now and nowthey.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Now we vibe code within you know chat.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So I am always trying to go to the problem.
That is the most pressingproblem.
And then I always try to be theperson who and I feel like in
my career I've actually been aman without a country I live
between the teams, right.
Oftentimes I talk to people whoare trying to hire me.
I'm like I'm not the tile, I'mthe grout, you know what I mean.
Like I live between thesethings just because it's always
(07:34):
been really about lateral, like,especially being a digital
native, somebody who's only kindof had digital jobs, you kind
of have to understand howeverything fits together to be
able to do it.
You can't really live in a silo.
So, again, I've been reallyfocused on like where's the big
problem?
So, you know, I've worked onCMSs as an editor because the
(07:55):
tools were important and if youdidn't have tools that were
built the right way, I couldn'twrite 20 blog posts a day.
So, like, that kind of workpushes you out of whatever core
you think you're in and startsto just evolve you into a
different direction.
And if you don't mind sheddingskin and being like you know
what I'm not really writinganymore, but I'm doing this
other thing that is interesting,and that was always more
interesting to me.
It was more interesting to meto be helpful or build things
(08:16):
than it was for me to like I'mgoing to be a writer.
I have friends who are writersand they stayed writers.
That wasn't where my pleasurewas coming from, and so I just
kind of I liked solving problems, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
So for our listeners, I would summarize some of the
mindset that I'm hearing Erictalk about is the mindset and
actions of like be useful, becurious, be of service, find
problems that maybe feel sticky,but you're up for a challenge
that really then ends up settingyourself apart because you're
being helpful to your colleaguesand your leadership and your
(08:48):
management because you'rehelping solve some of those
problems.
Yeah, I never see anything elselike that.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Even if it's not in your job description, right.
Like I think about my path togo from basically a writer and
then, 20 years later, I'm likethe head of US ad sales economy
and asked across all of thebrands the biggest problem in
media is how you fund it.
Right.
And so, even when I wasn'tdoing that job, just because I
was like okay, like who's thebiggest guy in jail, I got to
(09:15):
fight.
Right.
And when you're trying to be awriter and the HTML doesn't work
right and the CMS is broken,that's the biggest guy in jail.
Right.
And when you don't have a videostrategy and everyone's putting
in a video.
So, even though it wasn't my job, I wanted to kind of be in the
room to give the point of viewfrom whatever function I was in
at that time, to help the peoplewhose real role it was.
(09:35):
So I also comment this fromlike a support staff mentality,
and I still do.
As a leader, I believe that myteams, like don't work for me.
I believe that I work for them,and so thinking about yourself
is like I am trying to be themost useful, helpful person, to
become indispensable in my job,even if that meant being outside
(09:56):
of my function and I just hadto be very careful to do that in
a respectful manner where Iwasn't telling someone, hey,
you're doing it wrong.
It was more like how can I help, like what's in your way, how
can I assist you, and I thinkpeople really appreciate that,
because you become a safe person, not a political person.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
It also reminds me of the idea that I believe, again
leaders, at any level, theirrole is to create capacity for
others.
That's one of the signs of aleader that you are.
Whatever that mountain is,whatever that challenge is,
you're there and you're movingmountains to create capacity for
others, to create that change,so that, I think, is a really
(10:37):
powerful place and a place thatpeople can think about leaning
in.
Here's the question, though, ifmy job description is going to
weigh me on these, or my jobdescription is going to weigh me
on these, or my performancereview is going to weigh me
against these 10 or so things.
How did you keep yourselfwithin the swim lane of well,
this is what I'm getting paid toperform against?
(10:57):
Yeah, I see these challengesthat aren't in my core
responsibility, but they'reneeded.
How did you think aboutdividing your time between how
you're being measured andpotentially compensated versus
what's all outside, as you say,the grout?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I mean, a lot of our work takes place in meetings and
so you just kind of have to becareful about how many of those
extracurricular meetings you endup in.
You know what I mean.
I mean it's just that likeoftentimes it was just showing
up offering a point of view that, like I represented a team you
know like somehow like beingpart of edit right, it was
(11:38):
really critical for an edit teamto show up at a CMS meeting,
but like no one in thatmanagement system.
For anybody, it's a CMS but noone really wanted to show up to
that meeting from editorialRight and so like I would do
that.
It was still part of my job andI just had to like they were
just so grateful to have a realpartner to like answering email,
(11:58):
like so much of that huge valuestuff is.
It's really hard to understandor nuance or get information, so
I found myself just being likean emissary or an ambassador.
You don't have to do an awfullot there of like work.
You know I'm not coding it.
They just need a point of viewor perspective or someone to
like help represent that.
(12:18):
So a lot of like that stuffthat is extracurricular.
I was really focused on my job,but what I find some people do
is they like you ask them to dosomething and they say like well
, I don't have the bandwidth,I'm too busy, I'm too harried,
like I would never say that youknow, you know what I mean and
so, but a lot of people wouldshut it down and I see this
happen over and over and over inwork environments.
(12:39):
And then if you become theperson who just says yes, like
I'll give you five minutes, I'llget a lunch, I'll get a cup of
coffee.
That's the, theentrepreneurship where that's
like how you work in internal.
Cohort of people to like get abrand where you're helpful.
Cohort of people to like get abrand where you're helpful.
You just show up consistentlyand don't like dump on people
when you're having a prettystressful day.
(13:00):
Just help them if they ask.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, so it's professional brand, it's
building trust, it'scollaboration.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
That's what comes out of that yeah, you'll like
people ask and if you get areputation as someone who will
come when asked, everyone willcome to you, right, and then to
your point.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
You're now indispensable because everyone's
coming.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's right.
You're creating value every day.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
All right, I want to get a little specific though.
So can you walk me through atime you know again, you've
worked at top media.
Companies within what you canshare publicly, companies within
what you can share publicly.
Can you walk me, maybe like aConnie Nast or Hearst, where
you've navigated those internalstructures to bring a solution
to life?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
There are lots of them.
You know I would say that fromthe sales side.
You know I was at LifestyleCollection, lifestyle Division,
which was kind of my home court.
I had done food.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
This is at Coney Nass .
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Coney Nass.
Yeah, so I had done, you know,bon Appetit, I'd done Epicurious
, I'd done a lot of food andvideo stuff.
I'd been pretty successful onthe content side.
I was a little bit of a digitalgeneral manager.
So I was also sort of workingwith the Architectural Digest
team and the Conde Nast Travelerteam, sort of functioning like
product, a little bit of a GMhelping make business cases, and
I had been doing the sales teamthen from that.
(14:21):
So I knew that was all I hadknown.
And they finally uprooted me andmoved me to a totally different
sales team called the CultureDivision, which was totally new
brands.
It was the New Yorker, it wasWired, it was Pitchfork Totally
new team.
It was pitched for Totally newteam.
Didn't know anyone there right,and totally new categories to
have to sell accounts right Auto, media, entertainment, business
technology, finance, spirits aspart of the group, and these
(14:42):
are very experienced salespeople20 years of experience.
I've got one official year andthe team had been struggling.
We had done a lot of reorgs andso they were not the highest
performing team they were.
They were struggling a littlebit to feel like a division or
like a team and I remember goingin there and meeting everyone,
(15:06):
and I think the thing that Iwanted to do upfront cause I get
the sense that people were,they didn't know me and they
were afraid of me.
Yeah, and if you know me, it'ssort of like I'm the most
approachable, whatever.
And so I had a big long thinkand I was like you know what?
I'm going to just tell them whoI am really.
Quickly Like, here's me.
You're never going to catch me.
Flip a table If you need me tobe angry, for you to feel like I
(15:30):
care, like you're never goingto see it, but I care deeply
thing too.
I care deeply.
I'm going to show up in yourwork.
I'm not going to micromanageyou, but I'm going to be in the
weeds with you, like that's mymanagement style, and you're
going to teach me about yourcategories Cause I don't know
this stuff.
But I'm going to have your backand move mountains for you, but
(15:55):
I don't tolerate peoplefighting each other and I just
like I had a code I started withI'm not going to get angry, so
you can feel safe, I'm going towork very hard.
You're going to teach me, right, some humility in there.
And then I finally said we'regoing to perform and I need you
to buy in.
And it was like a very clearthing and you could see some
people could go four for fourwith me and some people could,
and the people who couldn't gofour for four, it was okay.
(16:17):
You know what I mean.
Like they, they found their ownway out at some point.
Yeah, they self-selected out,right, but but it was.
But I found that.
That and I found out later,years later, that like that was
one of the most memorableexperiences they had with me.
Like that worked, that went along way.
That clarity basically got ussix months down the road, and
then you have to figure out anyof those things on their own
(16:38):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So, eric, what you're saying is making me think of
something that so many peopleare, I'm going to say, in the 45
plus crowd are experiencingtoday that they're getting a new
leader that may have lesstenure, but it doesn't mean they
don't have fantastic experience.
So your new supervisor or bossmight be younger than you, might
(17:03):
have less tenure in the spaceor in that particular expertise,
but is bringing tremendousexpertise to the table.
How did you I mean, you talkedabout it just a little bit but
how did you continue to nurturethose relationships so that
those people didn't feeluncomfortable or, um, or even
(17:23):
like you won them over?
They didn't feel they didn't,they didn't come at you like the
professor, which is a lot ofwhat happens in that
organization.
Well, okay, you might be incharge, but I have more
experience, I have more wisdom,and then again it just upsets
the entire opportunity forcollaboration.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You know a couple of things, and I'll end on the
major one.
Last, I guess One is you're insales.
You're getting your ass kickedall the time, right, and I think
that one of the things that Ireally like to do is when
someone is coming to me and theyexpect me to lose my goddamn
mind and I am the nicest,kindest, least frustrated, best
(17:59):
person of myself they feel somuch better about that, and so I
really try to be like.
Big problem is a bigopportunity for you to really be
calm and lead, and so whensomeone has a really big problem
, be like you know what this ison me.
I own this.
Your number is my number, right, so I'm not going to yell at
you.
If you have a bad day, let'sget in there and fix it, because
(18:22):
everything is figureoutable.
And then the second thing wasthe pandemic.
I got this job three monthsbefore the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Four months before the pandemic, and so that was
also another time where it waslike you got chin checked super
hard and I was.
I was like, guys, we're goingto go home.
We're probably because we werepart of like a test pilot, we
didn't know we were going to behome home when we were sent home
.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So, guys, we're in New York City with a test pilot.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah for sure, and so I think the pandemic really
helped us kind of trauma bondwith each other and I still feel
very close to them.
But I think consistency is key.
The leaders that I see, reallyespecially the younger ones, the
younger ones who are dumpingtheir emotional stuff on their
direct reports 23 year oldscannot do that right.
They can also be totallyconsistent and totally mature.
(19:19):
So I do think that, like for me, if I had a boss who was
younger than me, experiencewouldn't matter.
It's just how do they handle acrisis right?
Do they need everyone elsearound them to carry them in a
crisis, or can they actually beconsistent?
And so I really wanted to pridemyself as a leader on being the
same person on a good day thatI was on a bad day, because then
(19:40):
people can really trust you,that like they can come to you
with anything.
I think that for me, would behow I would gauge a new leader
is like their emotional maturity.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, that can come at anyage.
It doesn't necessarily comejust with tenure or wisdom or
chronological age.
It can come at any age, at 23,.
Html.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I was like a duck in a pond and I could see these
people who were older than mehad no idea and could not get it
, but for me, building websitesand apps and everything else
(20:22):
that happened in the last 25years, that was a lived
experience for me.
I didn't know any different orbetter, so I couldn't question
it.
I am too old now to have AI bea wholly lived experience where
I'm going to vibe code somethingmyself.
Someone younger than me isgoing to be native to this right
and the way that I was nativeto digital.
That experience for them, thatmindset, their ability to think
(20:46):
more elastically that is a hugeadvantage in why someone could
end up being above me.
I can't do anything about that.
I can't change my brain.
I can't change the experience.
Well, I would argue as a coachyou can change your brain, but
I'm upscaling, but I do thinkthat, like you, can't unknow
what you know.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
There's too many circumstances you can't change.
So your choice is how do youwant?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
to embark on this, but you can respect them for
their ability to kind of thinkdifferently than you can.
You know what I mean.
And do they react?
The right way is the leadershiptest, though.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, so, going back to something you said earlier,
when you're taking on some ofthese problems, I have to
imagine there's more than one.
So what was sort of the signalor the criteria that you use to
decide?
Okay, I lean in there, that one.
If it's still an issue nextmonth, I'll I'll tap that.
(21:37):
But I gotta start here.
How did what was sort of thatinternal criteria?
And again, I know some ofthat's going to be specific to
the company you work for, butI'm thinking about um takeaways
for our listeners, like how dothey sort of weigh?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
yeah, you should weigh in so I would like what is
the biggest blocker?
Right?
So, like I know what I want todo and like what is the main
thing preventing me from doingit Right?
So I'm in my living room Ididn't really like financial
journalism and I wanted tolaunch a website, and what was
the biggest blocker?
I had no idea how to reallylaunch and host a website, and
(22:11):
this is before you had onlineservices that would do it.
So this is during LimeWire, Istole a copy of Dreamweaver.
I went online, I learnedDreamweaver and then for three
years I hand hacked a websiteout of my living room.
But the big blocker was I don'tknow how to do this one thing,
and I think that getting reallygood at understanding what is
(22:31):
the very next biggest problemthat you have.
And so when I was at Esquire,the big blocker we had was that
we had to migrate a website offof iVillage onto a custom
platform Right, and so Icouldn't, no matter how good my
content plan was, right, and sowhat some people choose to do,
that's like a path, right.
(22:51):
I went and leaned in to makesure that the cms was on point
and got there faster through myhelp and participation, so we
could relaunch esquire.
Other people would sit back andbe like I have a content plan.
These are the 16 writers I wantto get on board.
These are my blog posts, theseare my rubrics.
Where are you with the cms?
I can't do my job until you dothe cms.
(23:13):
So so you have a choice, right,you can lean in and help them
get there faster, even thoughit's not your job.
And this is where I think thatlike this is in order for me to
get to my thing and answers yourother question from earlier.
So that's another example,right.
There was another time where itwas I'm in product and I'm just
supposed to do Epicurious andBon Appetit and there was no one
(23:34):
doing product at CNT orArchitectural Digest, and they
told me hey, you need to helpout here too, right?
And I could be like okay, Iwill, because you can't say no.
But I could have just like paidthem lip service.
But Amy Astley is a greateditor.
I get to work with a greateditor, let me go help her out.
Pilar Guzman is a great editor,so I get to work with two more
great editors.
Understand how their brainswork.
(23:56):
You know what I mean.
And so this is the kind ofthing where you do have a choice
in work whether or not you'regoing to lean in or lean out.
And I find that a lot of peopleare so hypervigilant about the
exact job description.
A number of young peopleespecially come to me.
The job description, it's thereto help hire, but after that it
kind of goes away.
(24:17):
You know what I mean, or atleast it's not as literal as
they want to make it, right.
Right, it's not a scorecard.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
And hanging out with enough recruiters and HR people.
On occasion, a lot of jobdescriptions are just ridiculous
.
Who wrote this?
Did someone who actually workin the job write this?
Or was this written by a thirdparty?
Like it's not necessarilydirectly impacting the business
or the value that needs to becreated?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
right or they're.
They're so you know.
It's sort of like if you had todo a job description for like
husband, like I mean I guess.
But it doesn't get into.
Like you want, you like likewhat kind of husband you really
want?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Right, right, You're really going to fall in love.
It's just the core.
The core part is not that youwant yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, okay.
So one of the things you and Ihave talked about before, it's
sort of the job changes, pivotsreturnships, parents coming back
after paternity and maternityleave that last one.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
What'd you say?
That last one, paternity andmaternity leave comebacks.
That is real.
No one talks about that, sotalk about it.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Tell us about that.
Tell us, you have two.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I have two, yeah, there are three and seven,
almost seven when, when, when myyoungest, arlo um, was born,
coming back from that paternityleave, I had such imposter
syndrome.
I kind of always struggle withimposter syndrome, um, but like
(25:55):
I actually had to go back totherapy, I got a therapist who
also functions like a life coacha little bit, just to get my
head on straight, because like,they're moving at this game
speed that's like a millionmiles an hour and you're like
sleep deprived and I alreadyfelt like you know, I'm with the
best sales team on earth atconda and I've got two and a
half years of experience, butyou know it's like I don't rate
(26:18):
and that was.
that was really really tough.
But I don't think people spendenough time talking about how
hard it is to come back to work.
It's almost way harder actuallythan just getting a new job and
coming in fresh.
It's so much harder.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So, in addition to what you did for yourself, which
I commend getting therapy orcoaching and getting that
support as a leader what wouldyou tell other leaders to do for
their team that's coming backfrom maternity or paternity
leave?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I think just an acknowledgement.
I think a lot of people theyacknowledge the birth of a child
, but as someone who now had acouple of people like they, they
acknowledge the birth of achild, but as someone who now
had a couple kids, I'll beenough.
It gets really hard to have akid six months, precisely when
you go back to work, right likethe early days of it and again
(27:08):
I'm the man in the relationship,so like there's a lot of
physical healing that has tohappen for women and I'm not
short shrifting that but fromlike a parenting, child rearing,
like there's not a lot ofacknowledgement.
That like actually six to 18months is like super hard until
they get a little bit more yeah.
You know what I mean.
And so I think there's so muchacknowledgement of the pregnancy
(27:32):
is hard and giving birth ishard or whatever.
But I would just, as a leaderI've just set them aside and be
like, look, this is really hardperiod too.
I know that you're jugglingmore now than you ever have.
Like, I'm here for you, youknow, and if you need to take a
beat or you need to check outearly or whatever and like, try
to give them as much flexibilityas your return to office, slash
HR overlords will let you do isyour return to office.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Slash HR overlords will let you do.
Yeah, and I'm just saying thesame thing for grief, right,
there's a difference betweenbereavement and grief.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Right, you might need a couple of days off for the
immediate impact of the death,but then there's also ongoing
things that happen over the nextmonths that you might need to
do or deal with, and it's waysthat we can also be be again
real leaders, creating capacityfor others totally I've lost
both parents, right, includingincluding my dad, like recently,
(28:23):
a couple years ago, and I thinkone of the things like pay
attention, pay attention tofather's day or mother's day,
right, pay attention if you'reaware not the exact anniversary,
you don't have to be that weird, but you know it was may last
year.
Yeah, check in at the beginningof the month just because may
1st.
But, hey, I know you're comingup on this, you can't be wrong
then, right, you either nail itexactly, but I do think things
like that, like I think, areimportant, like how you doing.
(28:45):
I know it was a year ago, yeah,like I, I just those types of
thoughtfulness like you will beremembered by your people
forever.
But, moreover, like I don'tknow why I have to say this it's
okay to be a human being atwork and not have to be
someone's best friend.
Yeah, like there's a middleground between we're going to
(29:08):
share this intense moment andI'm going to overshare and tell
you everything about my life,and, just like a quick check-in,
that's like hey, I care aboutyou, how are you doing?
Yeah, yeah, and I think thatpeople learning that like little
light touch.
Can I get you a cup of coffee?
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like, and it doesn't have to bethis.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
It doesn't have to be .
I had so many.
My brother tragically passedaway last year and yeah, it was
rough, thank you.
And I've had people now say tome like I didn't want to ask you
cause I didn't want to upsetyou and like I understand why
that.
But I also am like you're never, like I'm okay if I shed a tear
(29:47):
in front of you because youasked me about my brother, like
I'm not, I'm not, I don't know.
I just I just feel like that'sthe point that you can be a
human, as you say, and notnecessarily be best friends, but
we can find the compassion forothers and the empathy for
others and hold space forsomeone, and I think that's what
we need more of in leaders.
I mean, we came up well.
(30:10):
I'll speak for myself as a GenXer coming up in a time where
there wasn't flexibility and itwas just grind it out.
See you tomorrow.
You know you have a big win oneday.
There's no coasting.
What value creating in thisnext 24 hours, and for the good
and bad of it.
It made us tremendouslysuccessful and strategic, but it
also I think a lot of Gen Xersthen struggle with younger
(30:33):
generations because they have adifferent work style, and
neither is right or wrong.
It's again creating thatempathy and that capacity to
allow people to succeed but alsofind ways to nurture them that
still drives against.
Whatever the goal is right, weare running a business, but but
making sure that you're creatinga space where people aren't in
(30:55):
fear or panicked that they can'tdo their job because they're
experiencing exhaustion.
I mean, you have two kids.
I imagine the second child isexponential, not just double,
like all of a sudden Thursdayyou're coming in.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean, I would say, like the role right, you're
tapping on something that, likeI did when I took over culture,
and I've done it a number oftimes when I unified the US
sales team at Condé as well yourjob as a leader is to create an
ecosystem.
Your job is to create weatherright, it's not about points on
the board.
I need to create an ecosystemby which people feel comfortable
(31:31):
taking risks, and to do that bychecking in on them.
They start to feel safe withyou, right, and if they feel
safe with you, then they'll runthrough a wall.
That's this next generation ofpeople, right?
The previous generation ofpeople.
I'm a Gen Xer too right, it waslike I don't care how you feel
about it.
I'm telling you to run througha wall, so run through the wall,
(31:51):
right, I'm taking the risk.
So you're taking the risk.
That's really top down.
It's really messed up, but Idon't.
I mean, listen, it is what itis.
I don't think that it works nowbecause all of the business
models post-digital I think it'sactually a digital thing that
disrupted it.
It's not so linear like I'mrunning a factory and it's
(32:12):
literally a conveyor belt.
That is straight.
It's an ecosystem.
Now there are too many movingpieces.
It's not this verticallyaligned industry, it's all
horizontal, it's a mesh industry.
It's all horizontal, it's amesh.
And so I think when you'redealing with a cross functional
mesh, you have to create safety,that people feel like they can
talk to each other, that theycan be bottoms up.
(32:34):
I don't think you can run thesethings top down and I think you
look at some of our businessleaders today that are trying to
be super, super top down.
They're not really getting theresults right, like the.
The leaders that and it's likethat book, good and great.
The leaders that actually dothe best are the ones who are
kind of anonymous, kind ofsoft-spoken, and everyone there
(32:55):
feels pretty safe.
So I think by checking in onpeople and you make them feel
safe, they're going to bewilling to take risks and if
they don't take risks they can'tsucceed.
So I think a lot of buildingbuildings that have bad leaders
who are very top-down pushing,no one in their day-to-day is
taking many risks.
They're kind of working to ruleand then they're out.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I think that's also been classified as soft versus
hard power.
They're pushing with hard powerversus soft power of really
understanding what teams andyour customers need.
All right, a couple morequestions and then I will let
you go.
So in these times of likethere's such major
transformation, I mean I'm tiredof kind of saying that we live
(33:35):
in unique times.
But if you think about you knowyou and I as digital neighbors
coming into the workforce andyou know I was there a couple of
hours before digital happenedand then creating that change
and figuring out how do weintegrate digital into
publishing, um, and theneventually you know video.
But thinking that throughyou've led during these times.
(33:56):
How did you stay grounded andsane?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
uh, I didn't know that I always did.
So we can start there.
You know, I certainly had mymoments.
I think I had to be reallyhonest with something like I
hate change, I hate likeinstability, and I think just by
(34:19):
continuously understanding thatI am uncomfortable, you can be
like, okay, well, discomfort isgrowth, and the thing I keep in
my mind is like I do not likegoing to the gym, but if I go to
the gym and I'm sore, it'sbecause I went to the gym, which
is good for me, yes, and so allof these things that I was
doing, even though it made meuncomfortable, even though it
(34:40):
was unpleasant, it was justgrowth, and I it got to a point
where, after about 15 years, Icould look back on how
uncomfortable I was for all thestuff and I was like, oh well,
this is my career.
My career is beinguncomfortable, and no one likes
being uncomfortable, so youcan't be surprised.
So am I seeking something thatI don't like?
And I was like well, I like theoutcome of when.
(35:01):
I survived this uncomfortablemoment and I was like, well,
maybe that's just the trick,like you can be very upfront
with yourself that I actuallydon't like change at all, but by
being the person who's willingto undergo change and helping
others undergo change, I wasable to reframe it and being
like well, if I can make it alittle bit easier for everyone
else around me, we can all gothrough it together.
(35:21):
And so I wasn't a martyr, I wasjust an interpreter.
I was just helping everyoneelse do the same thing I was
doing.
And then we were all equallyuncomfortable and I kind of feel
like that's been my trick isthat I'm I'm able to be
uncomfortable.
I know it, I don't like itanymore today, whether it's
public speaking or whatever.
And I just even acknowledgingthat because I think so many
(35:44):
people want their leaders to belike bulletproof or fearless,
and I'm not, and I think thatthey feel the same way I do, and
that makes it easier becausewe're all in it together yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
So what I'm taking away from that is change.
Well, things are going to happeneither way and you can sit and
resist it, and that's going tobe uncomfortable exactly or you
can do it and you're still goingto be uncomfortable, but at
least there's a shared learningor a shared outcome or a shared
win with the people that you'redoing with and you're pushing it
(36:15):
through, versus staying in yourdirty diaper and not and not
creating any change you know,also, like I'm not sentimental,
I mean, I love things, but I'mnot I've I'm not somebody very
sentimental which helps I lovethings, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'm not somebody who's very sentimental which
helps me, because everythingthat we have done in our careers
and I would argue it's beenthis way 250 years of the
Industrial Revolution it's all aone-way door.
It's all a one-way door.
I used to joke that if you gavesome of the early editors that
I worked with a billion dollars,they'd invent time travel, not
a better internet.
They would just go back andreplay the last 10 years.
(36:55):
And so I just think that, likeyou know, tomorrow has to be
better than today, right, likethere's all the one way door.
We're not going back.
So it's sort of I like the wayyou put it, like there's just an
inevitability of it.
We're gonna have to do thisanyways.
So, but I do think the badadvice is like we'll get
comfortable with it.
Well, no, that's not helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
But I don't think being comfortable at least I'll
speak for myself I don't thinkbeing comfortable has really
ever created the change.
I'm not saying I'm anexcruciating pain, but I don't
think me being comfortable withthe exception of, like, my yummy
bed has ever delivered a resultthat I want to share or talk
(37:30):
about or feel proud about.
Right, it's that that itchy onthe inside.
Oh my God, that you figure outhow to get.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
it's okay to be a little scared, especially at
work.
It's okay.
You know what I mean.
Like the stakes are lower thanyou might think sometimes, right
, right.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
So you mentioned a little earlier on that you just
finished a like mini AI MBA.
Tell us what you're thinkingabout or onto next.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I am loving.
I'm advising a whole bunch ofsmall companies.
There's one called Edamom thatis doing AI in the nutrition
space and I just I have the timeto learn and I think that's the
other part of a good careerYou're always learning, even if
you're the CEO of the company,you're going to learn.
So I'm just learning and, like,AI was something I dabbled in
but didn't have enough time tolike actually think about, and
(38:28):
so the way I learned was reallyby hands on.
So I've been able to build myown GPTs and learn some ways to
do it, and I need to know enoughto be dangerous and I've gotten
there.
So I'm advising, you know, someearly news startups, talking to
people, consulting with a fewcompanies, and you know, for me,
I think it's been, it's beenfun to just like talk to a whole
bunch.
I'm not I don't consider myselfa great networker, Um, and so
(38:51):
it's been great to just be ableto network and spend a lot of
time talking to people andlistening and just learning
again, Uh and so, yeah, there,there's a lot of really exciting
things happening out there andthis point of transition is,
it's wild, the things that AIwill do and can do.
It's truly.
It reminds me of 1999.
(39:12):
Like you know, it cannot beunderstated enough.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, and I would even just say, as you know, yes,
I'm an executive coach, but Irun a company and, as part of my
company, there are and it's notcontent it does not write my
content company there are andit's not content it does not
write my content, but there areso many things that my economics
and profit would not be thesame if I had to approach it
(39:37):
indifferently.
So where AI has really helpedme in ways it cannot emplace the
human connection I still havepeople on my team, but it has
definitely helped all of us inways that I just I couldn't
accomplish as much as I could,as lean as I am.
Yeah, otherwise just wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
People use mental models a lot to kind of make
sense of things, right, it'slike a way to be efficient
thinkers.
This is not hammer and nail atall, like this is so much bigger
than that.
This is like the discovery ofgerms or fire, you know what I
mean.
Like it's just conceptually onsuch a different level that I
think that even now, right, like, oh, it transcribes my meetings
(40:15):
.
It's sort of like, oh, how cute, you know, but where it's
really heading is somewhere very, very different than that.
And again, this is why I have alot of respect for people
younger than me with plasticbrains, like they're going to
understand and get to thatreality.
First, my job is to supportthem.
(40:35):
Right, because there's a wholelot of grownup stuff.
I know that they don't, butthere's a whole lot of future
stuff they're going to feel thatI can, and so my job is to help
them with their feelings.
You know what I mean.
And that's kind of the approachthey have now is that, like
people who are creatives orpeople who are innovators, need
(40:55):
someone that they can lean onwell as a support to make cogent
business decisions, but alsopractical emotional ones.
This is very stressful rightnow to try to grow this business
because it's shifting too fastfor anyone to keep up with in
the stakes field.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Well, it's trying to catch a falling knife right,
that expression, it's like don'tor do or no.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Or grab a glove.
You can't sit still.
So we're definitely in thefrothy petscom era of AI
businesses.
Sure, and you don't want tokind of have your hand in the
sock puppet at the Super Bowl,but at the same time, I'm
talking about petscom 25 yearslater.
And they weren't wrong, theywere just early.
So I just again like the.
(41:39):
The thing that has been superfun is I never thought I would
grown up in the room and like,somewhere along the line you
become a grown up.
It's enjoyable.
It's enjoyable and you know,the last few months have been
great, just consulting and, youknow, figuring things out.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Well, Eric, I thank you for being here and for
everyone.
If you have questions, you canemail me at hello at
jillgriffincoachingcom.
We will get them to Eric.
We will bring Eric back becausehe's smiling and I know he'll
come back and answer questionsif you have them and, as always,
embrace possibility, beintentional and kind.
We'll see you soon.
(42:18):
Thanks, Eric.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.