The job market may be sending mixed signals, but one thing’s clear—companies still hire problem-solvers. In this episode, Jill talks with Kristian Schwartz, founder of The Montgomery Group, about navigating today’s complex hiring landscape with clarity, confidence, and strategy.
Kristian shares how AI is changing the game, how to use summer wisely, and what top candidates are doing differently right now.
- Why AI fluency is no longer optional—only 10% are using it well
- How to turn the summer slowdown into a strategic advantage
- What “builder-leaders” are—and why companies want them
- The right way to follow up after interviews (and when to walk away)
Show Guest:
Kristian Schwartz founded The Montgomery Group, a boutique search firm specializing in senior-level marketing and media placements.
Kristian is a seasoned strategic leader with deep experience on both the agency and client side, having worked at Wired Magazine, Razorfish, and Sapient, and partnered with brands like Visa, Verizon, Clorox, Unilever, and HP.
Show Notes:
Ready to lead with clarity, confidence, and impact?
Take the Make Your Power Move Leadership Assessment and unlock the tools to define your leadership identity, elevate your influence, and step into your next role with purpose. For a limited time, use code POWER to get 50% off.
→ Start your Power Move today. Learn More HERE
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Build a Leadership Identity That Earns Trust and Delivers Results.
- Gallup CliftonStrengths Corporate Workshops to build a strengths-based culture
- Team Dynamics training to increase retention, communication, goal setting, and effective decision-making
- Keynote Speaking
- Grab a personal Resume Refresh with Jill Griffin HERE
Follow @JillGriffinOffical on Instagram for daily inspiration
Connect with and follow Jill on LinkedIn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the Career Refresh the show where we
talk about strategy behindnavigating your career, leading
others and always keeping itfresh through reinvention and
professional growth.
I'm Jill Griffin, your host.
I'm an executive coach,strategist and a former media
exec.
I've had about 25 years workingat some of the world's top
brands, leading teams throughgrowth and transition, and now I
(00:22):
help high performers and theirteams align their strengths with
their values, their performancegoals, their identity and
thrive through change.
And speaking of navigatingchange, my guest today is a
podcast favorite and he is backChristian Schwartz.
Christian is the founder of theMontgomery Group, a boutique
search firm that specializes insenior-level marketing and media
(00:44):
placements.
He is a strategic leader withdeep experience both on the
agency side and the client side.
He has worked at Wired Magazine, razorfish, sapien and has also
partnered with world renownedbrands like Visa, verizon,
clorox, unilever and HP.
He brings a wealth of verythoughtful strategic lens into
(01:07):
hiring, growth and what it takesto stand out in today's job
market.
Christian, welcome, I lovehaving you here.
You are a perennial podcastfavorite.
Everyone loves hearing from.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Christian, you're so good.
I just need to record this andlisten to this intro more.
Anytime.
You need to pick me up, but Ireally was looking forward to
this, because there's a lotthat's going on.
I love your views, you'rehonest, and I was just looking
forward to this conversationbecause any way that I or we can
(01:39):
help people hey, that's thename of the game Exactly Good to
hear.
Thank you, and you're the bestvoice.
I sound like a box of rocks, soI need to work on that, but
that's a whole, notherconversation.
I digress.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
You're so funny.
All right, Take us through.
Why don't you start with someof the macro trends that you're
seeing?
And for anybody listening to,this we are recording in
mid-June of 2025.
So go for it.
Tell us some of the macrotrends that you're seeing.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Okay, perfect, let me share with you with what I'm
seeing, but kind of a couple ofthings.
It's like I want to make sureI'm not going to polish anything
.
Some things may be kind ofpretty blunt.
It's not meant for shock value,I just want to be honest.
And then the other part is andI'm not a clickbait guy and it's
really about actionablethoughts, like giving a thought
without kind of how you actionit.
So everything here is going tohave an action.
(02:29):
But I think there are two macrothemes.
One is, let's call it, theenvironment overall, but the
bigger one that I'm seeing, thatis just we can't ignore it's AI
and it is.
I can't even begin to explainhow big this is, and I go back
to the early part of my career.
(02:50):
I saw the internet take shape.
This is exponentially bigger Ifyou look at how fast it's
growing, how fast it's changing,how fast it's changing
everything.
And I play around with it.
I use it a little bit for work,but it's more of what's.
I've been using it for a lot ofthings outside of work and I
speak with a lot of people and Iask them a question if they're
using it.
And I did my own research aswell to validate who I'm
speaking with.
Maybe a third of people that Ispeak with are using it for
(03:13):
basic prompts at best.
One third of those people so10% have done anything beyond a
basic prompt, and that iswoefully low.
It's like you.
Ai is the price of entry and itneeds to be absolute mastery.
Are you going to be the personusing it?
(03:34):
Maybe not, but do you need toknow it, to know how that tool
in your toolbox can be applied?
Yes, and I think that's thebiggest thing for people is just
learn it, own it and make itcore to what you do and how you
think.
It's a force multiplier.
It's not going to replace you,but it's a force multiplier and
that's number one.
What I'm seeing is it'severything right.
(03:56):
I listen to CNBC every morning.
Unemployment is actuallytrending down.
Unemployment is looking better.
Right, there's the tariffs.
That's impacting a little bit.
Payroll ads appear to be up,job openings are kind of holding
flat and it's this weird stateof if we look around in our
world, jill, you would say, wait, those numbers are wrong.
(04:17):
Right.
At the same point, you see, and, like you, look at the stock
market and it's up, everythingis pointing a different
direction.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's so bizarre.
It's so bizarre yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Look every single day I'm looking for more
directional pointers and theycontinue to point in different
directions.
I was hoping for a rate cutyesterday.
The Fed did not cut.
They signaled, but did notofficially announce, that
there'll be two rate cuts thisyear, and I think it's a matter
of it comes down to tariffs.
It comes down to rate cuts thisyear and I think it's a matter
of it comes down to tariffs.
It comes down to rate cuts.
(04:51):
But I do feel, and fromspeaking with people, there
appears to be a coiled up needbecause even coming off COVID,
things were leaner.
Companies became even more leanwith, let's call it, the
thinification and that's goingto leave holes and those holes
need to be filled and thoseholes need to be filled and
those holes need to be roundedout.
And there's some hesitation onmaking those hires because what
is the economy going to do?
What is the need?
What are the impacts of tariffs?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And if I need to borrow the money at a higher
interest rate to pay for thoseemployees.
I don't want, I don't want toRight, and I just I just did an
episode for the podcast aroundhow that entry-level career
ladder is broken.
But I also think it's a falseflag in many ways.
I'm not saying that recentcollege grads haven't had a
problem they absolutely have butthe idea that AI is going to
(05:37):
take every single positionentry-level right now.
It's just not simply true.
There are careers absolutely inwhich we can eliminate that
entry level position right now,but that doesn't mean that small
business and companies haveimplemented that technology.
So there are opportunitiesstill for that junior level.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
See, and that's where I'm an optimist, like, maybe
after spending all that time inconsulting, you become an
optimist where it's not achallenge, it's an opportunity.
And if I go back to my veryfirst job, I learned PowerPoint
my senior year of college.
Look, I'm old, it was a longtime ago.
I remember sitting in aclassroom thinking like when am
I ever going to use this Right?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And then, you went into advertising.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I did a new PowerPoint in 1995.
And the C-level executives werelike wait, this intern knows it
.
I was sitting in there with theC-level people.
It became this elevator for mycareer.
And when I look at AI, it's theexact same thing, where there's
the job, but then there's thejob plus one, and I think people
(06:37):
think that way there's thatopportunity.
I'm just very kind of, I'mpositive too there's that
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I'm just very kind of .
I'm positive too.
I will say I am a littlenervous.
What I'm reading over the lastweek or so is that Trump's
current budget bill would banstates from regulating AI for 10
years, and that means likewithout any legislative
oversight at the state level.
The public is going to becontending with how AI is
shaping their future, whetherthey like it or not.
(07:05):
You know, silicon Valley is apowerful lobbying powerhouse, so
I think we need to be alsothinking about that and if we
like it, do nothing.
If we don't like it, we alsoneed to be calling our
representatives and letting themknow that we can't have another
Section 230 on our hands wherethere is no accountability or
legislation that protects ourpeople.
(07:25):
So I think that also issomething for people to be
thinking about too, if theyhaven't seen that.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and it's almost like look, history has a
tendency to repeat itself.
And you know, I think it's agood time to read 1994, just to
refresh ourselves 84.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
1984.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Did I say oh wow, I'm dating myself 94.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You can edit that one out.
I'm kidding, Leave it no we'llleave it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
It's fun.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I will say, though, if I look at the major trends
that I'm seeing, it's roles aregetting approved and it's about
growth.
At the end of the day, it'sabout growth.
If a role is going to drivegrowth, it will get approved,
fact and at and you know, at thesame point it's going to drive
(08:08):
growth.
But it's the profile of thatperson that is needed, and let's
call it the.
You know the corner office,ivory tower, shiny object person
gone.
That profile is will not seethe light of day and it is a
leader.
But that person is a is abuilder, and they are.
They see the big picture.
They also understand the pipesand the plumbing and how to
direct the team to make thingswork, and they can come in and
they can make an impactpractically day one.
(08:30):
It's not saying they'reswinging a hammer, but they
understand how to apply thetradecraft.
And I also think there's acurious focus and a
human-centric profile that winsthe day, and I'm trying to
understand how to turn this intoresearch.
I could speak with a hundredpeople for a search when I speak
(08:51):
with someone, and I always askthe same questions, which is
tell me what you've been workingon most recently and what do
you want to do?
I want to hear elevator leveldescription.
It's amazing how some peoplewhat do I want to do?
They want to solve thisincredibly complex problem.
They are curious, they will beopen.
(09:11):
These are my strengths andthese are my weaknesses.
It's all out on the table.
They are there with absolute,pure intent.
When that happens, it's likethe C parts.
That's the person, and I workedon a search recently with a
private equity firm.
It was an absolute masterclassin how it came together and what
(09:32):
I really loved about this.
My client said this I can'ttake credit, but often with a
candidate, you get two thirds ofwhat you're looking for and the
remaining one third is a gap.
A gap can be seen as a negativeor a factor, just whatever it
is.
But but her response to thatwas where does this person need
support?
What is that one third supportarea?
And it kind of blew me away tothink about it that way and I
(09:55):
just think it's if it goes to.
What is the trend?
Orgs are flatter.
You need to come in effect.
Change.
You need to be human and justbe a really strong, fit kind of
the I'm everything.
That, that no longer there.
That that no longer, that nolonger applies.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I'm just going to pile on that Cause, the amount
of times that I hear people saywhere I can do anything, or or I
don't know what I want to do.
And it's like I understand thatyou might not know exactly what
you want to do but, dependingon your situation right now, if
being employed is a mandatorymeaning there is no excessive
(10:33):
bank account to keep you afloator there's nobody to help,
anything that's not aligned withyour values and ethics, I'm
just saying, like, right now,look at your resume and find a
way to be able to answer thequestions you said what do I do?
I would go at a step furtherand have people be thinking
(10:57):
about who did I interact with ona regular basis?
I want to hear clients, I wantto hear titles.
I want to know oh, you're ableto talk to the board regularly.
You're not.
You know you're not having achallenge if you have to talk to
the board or the C-suiteexecutives, or you're not having
a challenge talking to theinterns and scaring the crap out
of them, right?
Who, like what, did you do?
Who do you talk to and who didyou interact with?
And then, lastly, what valuedid you create?
(11:18):
You need to be able to tellreally simply the value you
created.
And if you're saying to me youwant a job and you want to be
reemployed and then you'resaying I don't know what I want
to do, I would look at your pastexperience and see if there's
something that you can lean into, because it's not a general
market.
It's we're hiring for impactand we're hiring for specificity
(11:38):
.
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, Now I will sometimes speak with people and
they'll say you know what I'mopportunistic.
It depends upon the situation.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Fair.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, fair, I'm okay with that.
Some recruiters don't like that, I'm okay with it.
I'm okay with that too.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
where four bullet?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
points new job.
Four bullet points new job,four bullet points, new job.
And the last three jobs haven'tchanged.
You haven't adjusted yourbullet points or your story in
(12:12):
five, six, seven, eight years.
You need to rerun your story,in my opinion, through that
filter of the modern world.
What is your story?
And it goes, and this is whereI'm skipping forward a little
bit.
But if I'm going to hire you asa marketer and you can't tell
your own story, how are yougoing to tell the story?
And you're telling me you're anamazing story storyteller for
(12:33):
your brand, but then your storyis falling flat.
Right, so many people.
It's like wait, you're a CV onmy desk.
You know well, I have.
I'm looking around, I havestacks of those right.
Where is the person that hasdifferentiated him or herself
through a thank you note,through sending me an article
(12:53):
that may be of interest to me?
Fill in the blank, right, likesomething around your brand, and
that is just, I think, onething that is missing.
Sorry, I feel like we went offtrack.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
No, I know, but I want to pile on that too, and
then we'll come back to macrotrends.
I would even say, if you didnot get the job or you did not
get the offer, but you like thatcompany and you really enjoyed
the people you met along the way, I would stay in touch with
them through the article thatyou've seen and showing them how
you're thinking or you knowyou're saying I understand.
(13:24):
Thanks so much for theexperience.
I'd like to stay in touch.
Great Now send them an articlea week or two later that shows
how something you talked aboutand what you're seeing and how
it might apply and just beinguseful to people and staying top
of mind.
I've seen quite a few timeswhere somebody didn't get the
job but because they stayed inconnection, a month or two later
(13:44):
they were brought back in foranother opportunity that was
adjacent and they were thecandidate.
I've seen that more than once.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Look time, time and time again.
And there is the art and thereis the science of hiring.
And the science is kind ofperfect fit that doesn't happen
very often and it's the art.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I'm speaking with a client
and or anyone for that matterand they may mention a pain
point.
It's like OK, stop, let's justdig into that, let's let's talk
(14:12):
about that pain point.
And it's like you know, wouldyou like to speak with someone
that I know that has solved thatexact problem problem?
I'm just making an introductionjust because it's quite
honestly, it's the right thingto do.
You'd be amazed how many ofthose have turned into hires
right, because the need isn'talways diagnosed.
But if you're the real solve forthe problem and it's finding
(14:35):
the right problem at the righttime.
And now it's hard, it's reallyhard, but at the same point,
well, it's just, life is hardright and it's increasing that
frequency.
So, jill, yes, that's all I cansay.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yes, okay, coming back, you started to talk about
AI and how people need to be notjust like surface area, but
actually using it.
I have a client right now whohas asked AI to create a
training program for her on AI,so it has given her a
week-by-week training program ofwhat she should know and what
(15:10):
she needs to do, based on whatshe works with in the technology
space, what she needs to bedoing.
So really, really brilliant,okay, what else are you seeing
as some of the macro trends?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yeah, I would say look, there's the strategic
hiring which I hit on, you know.
Look.
Another thing is return tooffice.
Fact, people are going back.
It's going back three to fourdays a week.
There's the outlier of acompany that is pure remote and,
at the end of the day, if youchoose to not lean in, you will
be opted out, and that's.
I don't make the rules, I havemy opinion aside.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
I think that's just a fact.
Yeah, it's also an easy way toreduce workforce by just saying
come back to work, and then theydon't have to worry about you
opted out.
I don't owe you unemploymentnow.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yes, now I do think.
My personal opinion is that Ithink five days a week is
onerous.
I would say if it is returnit's three to four days a week.
But again, my recommendationyou go.
Organizations are gettingflatter, but in some ways I
think that's good because peoplelook bureaucratic.
(16:13):
Organizations have a tendencyto move slow, so I think it's
good, but I think things canbecome too flat and that's where
I really wonder about coachingand how people are set up for
success versus spread thin.
You know, this is alsointeresting too is that I took a
look at my own LinkedIn networkover the course.
We set this meeting up you knowwhat a month ago and in each
(16:34):
week I looked at LinkedIn to seewho in my network was was
looking, and it's about 40% ofpeople on my network are looking
.
I ran some separate researchand that showed also it's
interesting how things line up40% of people are looking and I
think just some of the macrotrends are.
There's this massive log jamright now and it's really about
kind of intentionality and focusand precision what we spoke to
(16:58):
earlier.
Just because with everythingbeing so backed up, unless
you're really focused andprecise and just authentic, it's
not going to fit and I thinkthen you're just taking an
opportunity from somebody else.
It's almost through the karmiclens, okay, you know let's talk
about summer.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I have lots of thoughts here, but let's talk
about summer.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, it's funny you read that was my next thought
that.
So, okay, look here's.
Here's.
What I see is there'sseasonality to this, there's
seasonality and there'sseasonality even down to the
weeks, and what I tell peoplethat are looking is you may have
a busy week, you may have aslow week and there can be a lag
effect.
For example, after, let's say,after Easter, people were
traveling.
(17:40):
If a few people are out, thatcould slow a brief down from
finding its way to me and that'sreal.
So I think don't look at it dayby day, look at it kind of
bigger, bigger picture.
Summer is going to be slow andsummer is slow because people go
on vacation.
People are out, people's headsare elsewhere.
(18:01):
Even if there's an activesearch and I'm dealing with this
right now it's very tough toget meetings scheduled because
people are on vacation.
They're on vacation.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah, but you can network, you can network.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
There we go and that's exactly it.
It's an opportunity to network.
It's an opportunity to retrench.
It's an opportunity to go backto what we were saying earlier,
to define your story, to look atyour LinkedIn.
It's an opportunity to learn AI.
It's an opportunity and, at theend of the day, it's like what
is your strategy and how do youuse moments when it's busy to
(18:33):
use that for outreach, becauseyou don't want to do outreach on
, let's say, tuesday after athree-day weekend?
Right, it's slow, hold yourpowder until the next week.
People are busy that week andit's kind of when and where to
pull versus being in reactionarymode Because I think if you
need to panic.
don't panic, but rather thinklong game and think
(18:55):
strategically.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
So that's my opinion I would add to that Christian is
we're talking US-centric.
So everybody look at thecalendar and your own market and
your own region.
So if we're getting reallyclear what I have seen over the
last 10 years of doing, thisJuly 4th week, it hits on a
Friday.
This year, the week up to itit's gonna be really slow.
(19:18):
So save your energy that week.
Maybe that's the week that youalso take a pause.
If you're looking right, wefind that a lot of parents are
dropping kids off at collegemid-August.
Guess what?
August 15th to 20th or so isprobably going to be really slow
.
It doesn't mean it is, it'sjust saying based on past trends
.
And then, same thing, guesswhat, last week into summer,
(19:40):
into Labor Day, also a timethat's going to be slow.
This does not what I'm tellingyou.
This is I want you to work onyour mindset during those times.
Don't freak out those weeksthat no one's responded to you.
You remember where you are inthe calendar.
Look, I always think of thatDownton Abbey quote by the
Dowager, right, where she's likeweekend, what's a weekend?
(20:02):
Right?
When you're unemployed, everyday kind of feels the same.
But just remember that otherpeople are still following sort
of a workplace calendar.
So that's the time where makethose appointments for coffees.
Can you get face-to-face withpeople.
Not everybody is out.
It's great networking weeks,even if you're interviewing is
(20:23):
on hold.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
If you're looking at it, it's to your point.
It's breaking it down tomanageable pieces and I've
talked about this before.
So I promise I'll go quick andI won't be a broken record and,
jill, I'll supply this documentto you to share out.
But it's a document I createdcalled Win a Day, and when I was
looking for a job in the past,I found myself I had twins that
were born.
I for a job in the past, Ifound myself I had twins that
(20:46):
were born.
I was obviously stressed.
I was wondering is this the endof my career?
It was tough and it wasn't.
But these are the things thatyou think and I basically was
like wait, I need to break thisdown into bite-sized pieces so I
can be good to myself and myfamily and just everybody around
me.
And at five o'clock I would askmyself one simple question with
a checklist, which is did I havea win?
And when things were busy, Imay have three interviews that
day, that's a win.
If things are slow, did Iconduct research and work on
(21:07):
outreach that day?
That's a win and it's a matterof.
If you stack that upconsistently, you will have the
macro win and I think it's a.
There's another article on luckwhich I love, which is luck is
increasing frequency.
If you're skilled and youincrease the frequency, it's
going to work.
So increase frequency and thenthe luck presents itself Like.
(21:30):
I love that concept.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Talk a little bit you've mentioned this to me
before about turning that lullinto leverage and that you have
some sort of strategic thingsthat you think people should do
during that lull.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, I think it's really tell your story.
What is your strategy, defineyour strategy, focus on your
skills.
It's really double and tripledown on that strategy and that
strategic fit so you can make ithappen.
(22:03):
Right, don't do the spray andpray.
I also think you know I thinkthis is also really interesting
is people.
I sometimes get a phone calland it breaks my heart a little
bit and they say I was justimpacted Can you help me get a
new job Now?
I would love to, but, at thesame point, the strategic
probability of me helping youknow, let's say, I have a
(22:24):
network of 10,000 people.
It's going to be low, right,and it's really about your
network and that's where I thinkthat is the most important
thing with that law, which is gothrough your network and find
those people.
And there's a great article andagain, jill, I'll give you
access in about the long tail ofyour network.
Those are the people that arehelpful.
If I look, when I started out insearch, it wasn't my client
(22:46):
that I worked with most recently.
I thought that's where all myprojects were going to come from
.
It was some people that Ihaven't spoken to for 10 years
and they would call out of theblue and say I see you're now
doing this.
I loved working with you beforeand it was strange because you
either thought maybe they forgotabout you or you thought I've
lost touch.
So, therefore, I don't havepermission to then reestablish
(23:08):
this person and those are thepeople.
Therefore, I don't havepermission to then reestablish
this person.
And those are the people.
One is just beautiful toconnect with them.
We're all grown up, we'readults, we have kids.
Wow Right, life has changed andI think it's to really focus on
that intentionality.
Don't spray and pray, don't dothe reactionary what is, what is
your story?
What is your desired outcomesand be very strategic but
(23:31):
intentional to make that work.
I think that's the mostimportant thing, and to really
frame that and to craft that Wasthat helpful.
I feel like I just threw it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, yeah, no, that is.
I want to come back withsomething because you've also
said this to me before, which Ilove is that business problems
don't go on vacation, don't goon vacation.
So when you're thinking aboutthat, turning those power pauses
into a networking approach,right, one of the things that I
(23:59):
think people could be spendingtime in is when we're going into
flatter organizations playercoach.
If I'm a senior person andyou're falling into that idea of
like, oh, it's a flatterorganization, we don't know if
we need it Again, the businessproblem doesn't go away just
because people on vacation.
How could someone be thinkingthrough the player growth coach
roles and start to gain likesteam?
(24:20):
How are they?
How they position themselves asboth a doer and a strategist?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, I would say like here, here's an example is.
Example is I'll be a little bithonest, but my attention
deficit disorder serves me wellin this, in this role, and so
I'm always just looking around,I'm thinking, and you know,
let's say, for example, there'sa, there's a Kava by my house
and Kava just launched a loyaltyprogram.
(24:47):
Great, Right, let's say you'rea loyalty person, We'll just go
down that rabbit hole, you know.
Reach out to the CMO and justsay you know, hey, love your
loyalty program.
I went in, go in and experienceit.
Right, Do some research.
Don't send a large diatribe.
Who doesn't want to receive anemail to say you know what you
just launched?
(25:07):
This significant program Couldbe a campaign.
Fill in the blank.
I went in and I thought it wasgreat.
Maybe there's a small tweakthat you have.
You know, just kind of use yourown best judgment.
Don't be there to sell, butjust be there to say you know,
hey, kudos.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Really well done.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Who does not love receiving an email like that?
Right, you know you're notgoing to send the person an
email and say I am a 30-yearloyalty veteran, right Delete.
But it's like a genuine,sincere acknowledgement where
you actually did your homework.
Now that person may respond andsay thank you.
That's then your opportunity toagain read the tea leaves, see
(25:50):
if you can, somehow, maybe.
Hey, I would love to talk withyou about 20 minutes to get a
sense of what you're seeing.
I happen to be looking, ifyou're comfortable.
Please do not feel obligatedbecause, look, networking
fatigue is real.
Give the person an opt-out.
They may take it, they may not.
If they don't, that's okay.
Just keep in touch, right.
And I think it's where, like Idon't believe it or not,
(26:12):
actually I don't work onbusiness development, I merely
just put good intentions outthere.
I'll send emails like that.
Some may convert, some may not.
The intent isn't for it toconvert.
The intent is just to take careof my network Right, and be in
the inbox and still createresidence and reach.
(26:32):
And that's where you know, look,at the end of the day, there is
some hole burning in the pocketof an organization and I
guarantee you, there was arecent board meeting and that
leadership team was torn apartby the board for said problem.
The CFO may not be willing toauthorize that new role, to
approve it, to solve thatproblem, but right after the
board meeting, I'll tell youwhat.
You know what, that CFO willapprove it and if you can
(26:53):
identify that problem and get infront of it and you're the
solution, you go to the front ofthe line.
It's not a matter of we need tosearch, it's a matter of you
have solved this problem.
Builder profile builder leaderright.
Going back to that, wait, wecan hire this person day one.
They can come in and they canmake an impact.
Who doesn't want to make thepain go away?
(27:17):
Yeah, that is, and you know.
Okay, maybe it's not a fulltime role, maybe it's contract
Great, you know what?
I think that can actually beeven better, because try to give
you a taste.
How many companies did you workfor that were crazy, right?
You know you're married on thefirst date and I think it's just
to think in that way and togive yourself that permission
where you can do that.
Now, if you've only worked withvery small regional companies
(27:39):
and you're reaching out to theCMO of Kava, okay, maybe that's
not the right fit, but again,use your best judgment and
you'll kind of know if you havethat credibility, if you will,
to reach out.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And I would say that this would be a good opportunity
for you to open Chatty G, as Ilike to call it, or Claude,
which I also like, for writingand put in your scenario.
I recently was in a CAVA and Iwant to reach out to the CMO and
provide a couple of tips basedon these three things I said.
I said now, right, so you're.
And then go back through it andmake sure it sounds human, not
anodyne and not robotic.
Right, but you can use it andput your own personality in spin
(28:21):
.
We're not using AI to cut andpaste, we're using it to prompt
thought.
And then I want you to put yourown personality and spin on it.
And and then I want you to putyour own personality and spin on
it.
And if you're asking people ifthey could help you, I want you
to be super clear.
Can I have 10 minutes of yourtime?
If it's open-ended, it might belike I don't have an hour to
give this person this weekbecause I'm so busy.
Can I have 10 minutes of yourtime?
(28:41):
And the last thing I'd say onthat is that, if you are looking
because you may not have theemail address to the CMO there's
a great tool calledrocketreachcom and you can pull
emails off of that.
They'll help you understand thenaming convention.
You still got to get theperson's first and last name
right and put it in, but theywill let you know what the
naming convention is of thedomain so that you can send an
(29:04):
email.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, and you know, and I would even go.
You know, jill, I would loveyour take here, right, and look,
I'm, I'm not young, I'm not old, right, I consider myself wise,
right.
But think of it this way If Idon't have the person's email,
what if I sent that person awonderful letter, Right, like,
I'll be honest, I love gettingthings in the mail and for me to
(29:28):
hold a wonderful piece of paperthat's well-crafted, with
somebody's signature, that's you, I don't know, and I think some
people may recognize it, somepeople may not.
But again, you're not an emailin an inbox, because my inbox is
not, it's not a place of happyfor anybody, but like a
wonderful piece of mail.
There's, okay, there's aclothing store that I go to, the
(29:49):
person that I go to when I buythings there, he always sends me
handwritten thank you notes andwhatever I buy, my most recent
purchase, he'll send me like alittle sketch of it.
I have a drawer full from baby.
I love it and I can't get ridof them because they're just too
precious, and I think if youcan somehow put your brand in
that respect I don't know, Ithink there's something there.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I love, that it has to be authentic, yes, and that
personal touch, yes.
Okay, so we have the summer low, which we've talked about.
We know that there'll be asurge that comes later August,
september, depending again onyour region and where you're at.
So what should people be doing?
(30:30):
Like if they're networkingthroughout the summer, putting
out reaches out again, I don'tcare if people are answering or
not You're building the muscle,you're making practice, you're
finding some people to bemeeting and connecting with.
Okay, we're September.
What's their plan?
What should they be doing?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, your plan to start activating on that
outreach and to really like whoare you going to reach out to in
advance?
Right, like now, it's like whoam I going to target?
What are the roles?
How am I going to make thishappen?
Kind of adjacent to that iswhat is my story, right, and
it's to begin to tee that upthrough those soft touches so
that when September happens, youcan turn it on Right, and it's
(31:06):
almost like having you know,let's call it an A, b and a C
column, right, c is you know,let's call it low pipeline and A
is top Right, and you may movethings within that spreadsheet
and your goal each week is tomove things forward, because by
the time C hits low, low funnel,right, that's where you want to
be, because if you start thatprocess in mid-August, it's too
(31:27):
late.
People are on vacation, right,and it's really about, I think
it's about getting ahead of it,and I also think I think this is
important is some people reachout and it's almost like hey,
what do you have for me?
And it just sits weird, right,so good, and and it just, it,
just, it doesn't sit well wheresome people it's like how are
(31:51):
you?
And it's you know, like how areyou?
Because everyone is dealingwith something and that is just
so lovely.
And I think the other part isyou know, hey, because the
recruiter, everyone calls therecruiter and they want
something.
But it's like how can I helpyou?
And it's like wow, right.
And I think it's, if you'relooking and you're networking
(32:14):
with somebody else, that personmay not be a person that could
hire you, but that person mayneed to know people yeah.
And you may know somebody andit's just the right thing to do.
And I think it's really look,the system is broken, meaning
the hiring process help people,and it's just the right thing to
(32:35):
do.
I can't tell you, jill, howmany times I will speak with
someone that I know there's noactive search.
You could try to say, hey, canI get a fee?
But you're going to be thatrecruiter and I won't be that
person.
It's like, hey, you should callso-and-so because they do just
that.
And it's like, again, file thatunder just the right thing to
do, right, it's not aboutleading with dollar signs, it's
intentionality and just look tohelp and it's gonna come back.
(32:58):
It's gonna come back.
I think that is so importantand it's just putting it out
there and staying consistent andI think it's also being
realistic.
Some people are very unrealisticand you mentioned this once
before and I was reallyimpressed with the way you
thought about this.
And it's like what is yourpipeline?
What is the challenge with yourpipeline optimization to
(33:22):
achieve said outcome?
Because marketers do thatFunnel optimization.
Are you doing that for yourself?
And I was kind of like, huh,just I don't know.
It was interesting.
I think it's to really assessand really optimize that yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I think also what I would say there is again, this
is marketing speak.
And if you don't totallyunderstand, you can go to your
friend chat, gpt and understandwhat we're talking about.
But if you're not getting acall back or an email back, you
have a top of the funnel issue.
You don't have enoughengagement and awareness.
(33:58):
You have a top of the funnelissue.
It's about rest versus depth.
At that point, how many can yousend out?
And again, we're still keepingin mind that we're being
intentional.
It's not a spray or pray,that's not what we're saying.
We're saying that if you'veonly done one outreach this week
, that's a top of the funnelissue.
There's not.
You're not enough out therethat you're catching opportunity
(34:20):
right, that I would say what ifyou aimed for one a day and at
least we're getting five right,so that top of the funnel.
And then if you're getting intothe interview, right, so that
top of the funnel.
And then if you're getting intothe interview but you're not
getting a call back or you don'tmake it past the screener,
that's a mid funnel issue.
You're not converting.
That tells me that there'ssomething about the story you're
(34:41):
telling that's not fitting thejob description.
Not every job description isgoing to be right for you.
But if you get somebody on thephone or you have a pre-screener
and you find that you're notlanding, then there's something
you want to look at in yourstory.
What do you see, christian?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
yes, and I see people not paying enough attention to
that or being the blind self andnot assessing that and
repeating the same behaviors.
And with what you just said, Imean that's the perfect
opportunity for our friend chatGPT, right, which is I'm going
(35:21):
to feed you the roles I'veapplied for my resume, my cover
letter, the feedback that I wasgiven, the job description, the
threads, back and forth.
Maybe you interviewed, maybe itwas a phone interview.
For example, I use granolaaifor note-taking, which is
amazing, but you can also thenimport it into chat GPT and
(35:45):
there are things that you maynot have heard, that you said,
or things that they may havesaid, and you can say give me
feedback, where was I fit, wherewas I not a fit?
And then you can say, hey,based on you know, this search
and all of your information,what learnings can I have?
And I guarantee you look, is itgoing to be perfect?
(36:07):
No, is it directional feedback?
Absolutely, and that will giveyou feedback.
That is your blind self.
You probably would have missed80% of the stuff in there and I
think that's the key thing whereit's process improvement,
because the more you do the same, the more you'll get frustrated
, and the more you're frustrated, the more you don't show up,
and that's a negative cycle,yeah, and it's reversing that
(36:29):
cycle.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, and in your practice, like I love what you
just said there about anotherstrategic way of using AI, In
your practice you could also say, based on this job description
and my resume, ask me questions.
If you're the engineer, thehead of engineering, what
questions might they ask me so Ican be prepared?
(36:50):
What questions might you knowthe founder be asking me versus
HR, and really the amount oftimes people tell me that they
stumble on so tell me aboutyourself?
Here's the hint no one.
It's not really about you, it'sabout them and their company.
They're not saying you can'tsay anything personal like oh, I
just came back from a greatvacation, Sure, Whatever, but
(37:12):
it's about aligning.
When they say, tell me aboutyourself, aligning who you are
and your career narrative to thejob description and the
company's mission.
That's what they're asking for.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, and do, look, go through and do all of your
regular research, Always do yourresearch At the same point.
You know this is a greatexample.
There's someone I was speakingwith last week and he said he
was about to have an interviewwith a.
We'll just say Google, we'llchange the company's name and
you know it's like oh great,great company, very Great
company, very senior role, vplevel role.
They obviously have a veryspecific style of interviewing.
(37:45):
Hey, are you going to useChatGPT to practice your
interview?
And the response was no, andrather there is a copious amount
of information about how Googleconducts its interviews.
You, in theory, could replicatethat same exact interview using
the app with the voice.
I use it all the time to talkto it and then basically say,
hey, let's go through threetrial scenarios.
(38:07):
Give me the first, give mefeedback.
Let's go through the second.
And did I make improvements?
What can I do?
Because it's there's you andthere's how you show up, right?
I know a lot of great peoplethat just don't show up well,
and that's okay, because if theydon't show up well, but if I
know they're great, if I'veknown them for some time, I'll
(38:28):
support them.
Because, just because you don'tshow up well in the interview
doesn't mean you're the perfectperson.
It just means you need somesupport.
But not every company will giveyou that.
And if a company will give thatto you, great.
But if Chad GPT can help youget out of your own way, there
we go.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Right, yeah, yeah, and it's all there.
The tools are there.
Okay, I was a couple of supertactical questions.
Um, I know you're a huge fan ofthank you notes handwritten, so
am I, if not emailed?
If you don't handwrite, atleast email?
Cover letters is a big debateon if they require a cover
letter, you got to send one Ifit's optional.
Question one is should theysend one and two?
(39:08):
What I often see is the coverletter just repeats the resume
and it's like yawn.
So what are you seeing in bestpractices within cover letters?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, that's a good one.
So I'll be honest, I don't readcover letters.
What I will, I will skim themand you know, let's go back
pre-ai.
There were probably three orfour cover letters that I saw
that were just so well written,they were just brilliant and
actually I shared it with theresume of, like.
This person is an amazingstoryteller, Like this.
(39:44):
This cover letter is such apiece of art that it had to be
included.
Right At the same point Istarted to notice a trend.
Maybe it was last summer.
There were a lot more greatcover letters coming through and
it's kind of like oh, it's AIand actually one.
I'll be honest, it's AI andactually one.
(40:05):
I'll be honest, it fooled meand I think I even asked the
candidate and then I ran itthrough software that said it
was completely AI written and Ieven commented to that person
that it was a great cover letterand, I'll be honest, they
didn't admit it.
Now, this is a real gray area.
Should they have admitted it ornot?
Now, this is a real gray area.
Should they have admitted it ornot?
At the end of the day, justdon't do it.
(40:25):
Don't do it right Now.
Is it there to guide you Isthere to give input.
Do you run it through GrammarlySure, go for it.
But if it's not, you and yourwords, when you show up day one,
it's just it's going to be adisconnect and that's just.
It's going to be a disconnect,it's and that's just.
Don't, don't, don't, do it.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Right, it's like having a 10 year old dating
profile photo, like who'sactually showing up here?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, yes, I do need to update my LinkedIn picture,
but that's a whole notherproblem.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Jill yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Right, but I think it's just to be authentic.
Whereas maybe you're not agreat writer that's okay that
doesn't mean you may not begreat at what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
But do you think a cover letter should be a
reiteration of the resume or isthere another take on the cover
letter?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
There has to be another take.
Look, I don't want to read areiteration of your resume.
I can look at your resume andso I would say no.
And I'll be honest if somebodycan send a wonderful three to
five sentence articulation, thatis soulful.
That's going to get me everytime Right.
Can you say more with less?
The long diatribe nobody hastime.
(41:38):
People, they still.
What is it?
Seven seconds the averageperson spends on a resume.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
I think it's eight on a LinkedIn profile and seven on
the resume.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Look.
And here's the other thing.
This happens time and timeagain.
I'll be speaking with a clientMaybe we're having a
conversation and I will say, hey, I just sent through a new
profile, I'd love to get yourfeedback.
You hear them clicking on thekeyboard.
They're not opening the resume,they're going to the LinkedIn
profile.
And you know I have nothing toprove this, but you know, you go
(42:11):
to the LinkedIn profile, youskim it and you look at the
picture.
Human beings are visual.
That's the fact, right, andit's just for some reason,
people go to LinkedIn and theyskim LinkedIn before they even
look at the resume.
And by the time they skimLinkedIn, the decision is made.
Whether it's right or wrong,it's just kind of how it works.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Okay, last question, this one I get asked a lot how
often should I be following up?
Let me be clear I went on theinterview, I wrote my thank you
notes to everyone and, whetherit's the recruiter or even HR,
depending on how the interviewis set up, how often can I
follow up?
(42:53):
I interviewed last week and Ihaven't heard anything.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I hear that a lot.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, so there's a real problem with ghosting and
that's just unacceptable.
And something that I strive foris that, by the time I leave
the office every Friday, all ofmy clients and every candidate
will know where everythingstands as they head into the
weekend.
Right, that's just a courage.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Even if you're saying so, even if it's like hey, jill
, just want to let you know Idon't have any updates with you,
know, and yet have a greatweekend.
So even you'll send a proactive, no news email.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Absolutely, jill, I know you interviewed on Tuesday
waiting for feedback.
Some people were out of theoffice.
They're working to gatherfeedback.
I'm hoping to have it earlynext week.
I will reach out as soon as Ihear just those gentle touches
because, look, it's emotionaland going into a weekend your
head does not need to bethinking about work.
But if you know, people are onvacation it's not me, at least
you know and that's where I, Iand again, I try.
(43:54):
I'm not perfect but I try to dothat.
Not every company does that andI'm not a fan and that's a
whole nother conversation.
A fan and that's a whole notherconversation.
I would say the opposite end issome people will be, you know,
waiting for three weeks and theydon't reach back and that can
be negative, kind of let'sconsider that a lack of interest
if the candidate doesn't reachout, so it's weekly.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Okay, can I?
Can I email them weekly?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I would say maybe every other week, just to slow
the cadence down a little bit,right?
So let's say I interview onMonday, let's say it's Friday.
I haven't heard back.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
And maybe you wait, and I've sent my thank you notes
.
Obviously, that's all been done.
Okay, it's Friday.
I haven't heard back.
When am I allowed to reach outagain?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, I would say maybe wait until.
Wait until Tuesday, okay, andyou know, and and when I, when I
send notes to follow up, younever want the person to feel
obligated because that'snegative.
But it's more of a hey want toexpress my interest.
I want to check in.
I understand you're busy.
(44:58):
If you have any updates, pleaselet me know.
There we go.
Keep it, keep it short, right?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Um so, how long can I do that for?
It goes into a month, it goesinto a month and a half and I
haven't heard.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, I mean, I guess my question is you know, let's
go back, Jill, let's go back toour dating years, right?
If we go on our first date andit takes you a month to call me
back, why don't I go on a seconddate with you?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, I would agree, cause if, even having been in
that position before, where I'mlike waiting on finance to do
something or I don't have ananswer, I might proactively,
without a promise, send acandidate.
Really enjoyed meeting with you, still waiting on some
information.
I hope to be in touch with yousoon.
Just keep you warm.
(45:43):
But again, not everybody wasraised by our parents.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
And I think and I think that's the big thing, I
think you know you I will tellcandidates this and if I'm even
working on a search, I will geta bat for my clients the same
point if they're delayed withtheir feedback.
I will also be honest, becauseeverybody needs to be honest
with everybody and you know it'snot uncommon for, let's say,
someone takes a long time forfeedback.
It's like you know, hey, youcan only say this in a few words
(46:11):
, but it's like is this a rolethat you're still interested in
now, knowing what you know?
Yeah, right, and it's.
There are different roles fordifferent people at different
stages of their career, andmaybe it's a more transactional
role and I'm okay, great.
Maybe it's a place where I wantto grow and crush it and thrive
and really dig in and betreated well.
How you're treated during theinterview process gives you a
(46:35):
pretty good sense of what it'sgoing to be like when you're-.
What you're walking into, and Ithink it's to be really honest
with yourself with that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I had a situation personally years ago where I
thought everything went greatand then I just went radio
silent and I talked to you know,like a mentor and asked him
what he thought I should do,because he knew the CEO that I
was interviewing with and hesaid follow up.
He's like that's strange,especially because he was the
(47:05):
connector in.
So I wrote the CEO an emailthat just said like hey, I
understand priorities change andtimelines changed and I wonder
if you could give me anyfeedback on my interview Meaning
I wrote it assuming that thiswas done right, this wasn't
happening, but very gracious, noresentment, just saying like I
(47:25):
understand priorities anddesires change.
If you could give me anyfeedback on my journey, you know
, on my interviewing journey,that would help me in the future
.
I would be really appreciated.
No sooner did I hit send thanmy cell phone rang with his name
across and he was like I am sosorry.
I thought we told you andbasically they didn't have the
(47:48):
budget, they shot high budgetwasn't approved and it would
have been, you know, me workingfor like a 75% pay cut which I
wasn't interested in doing.
Anyway, they gave me fantasticfeedback, which I understand
legally is not what they can do.
They just said here's what wethought you were great.
They didn't give me anyconstructive criticism because,
(48:08):
again, it was about a budgetissue and that was it.
But I got past that fear ofit's okay that you didn't pick
me.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, you know.
Look, I would love, like myinbox gets jammed up.
Fact, and the easiest way ifyou send me an email I don't
know, maybe it's last week,right, if you send a follow-up
again, hey, kicking this to thetop of your inbox, there's guilt
that kicks in.
Jill, I will respond to thatimmediately, right, and we will
(48:38):
be speaking the next day, andthat's okay.
Now, if you do that and theperson then doesn't respond,
it's like wait, is this amanager you'd want to work for?
They're ignoring you.
You did share one thing and Istrive to do this so much which
is feedback, and I think we allowe it to each other and
(48:59):
companies are just so afraid toyour point with the legality,
with feedback, and it's okay,because someone may be looking
and maybe their profile wasslightly off.
Okay, maybe they need to knowthat.
They're going to know it wasn'tthem, and I think it's to give
them that answer.
So when they walk away, theyhave the understanding of
(49:20):
whether they could have donebetter, and sometimes it's not.
It's just the reality ofwhether they could have done
better and sometimes it's not.
It's just, it's just thereality of what your profile is.
And to share that feedback orsomeone maybe they did something
that was uncharacteristicallyoff.
Share that.
I just think it's a.
I'm really big on that.
It's more, more feedback.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
What I would say, though, to everybody listening
lower your expectations, becausethe legal department and HR
department is going to say youcan't give feedback.
What I would say if anybodywho's in the position of hiring
give the positive feedback, thenIf you can't give the reason
why you know what.
You really weren't that strongin coding, and that was obvious,
(50:03):
that you weren't able like.
You can't say things like that.
It's squishy.
But then give feedback.
That's like listen, you were anexcellent presenter, you were
great storyteller, you werelikable.
We're moving forward withanother candidate again.
You have to check with yourlegal department, you have to
check with your hr what you canand can't say.
But giving feedback, they sayit's a gift.
(50:24):
It, it, it really is, and Ithink they're not going to, but
you can ask for it.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, it's.
No, it's yeah, I will say,though I also think it's to have
empathy for the internalrecruiters, because they are
really overworked and they arereally taxed, and I think it's
to have empathy because theirdepartments have often been cut
to the bone.
They are viewed as cost centers, not value adds to the
(50:53):
organization, which is ironic,because talent is the key fuel
for any company, and there was alarge company that I worked
with and my internal contact wasthe internal executive recruit
consultant Fantastic, and wewere having a holiday lunch at
the end of the year and he toldme how many searches he worked
on.
I think he filled 60 roles overthe course of one year.
(51:16):
Jill, I don't even know how hecould keep that straight.
Right, that's insane.
What is your KPI for yourperformance and what is your
bonus based on?
It's based upon how many peopledid we put in seats, fact, and
a lot of what I do is much morestrategic, and there's that
artisan aspect.
(51:37):
In a role like that, thatperson is not being.
Those are not their KP, theirKPIs, and it's really to
understand who the person is andwhat their goal is, and I say
their motivation, becausethey're doing what their remit
is, and so I just think to keepthat in mind is really important
.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah, christian, this has been so helpful.
I love that you spend this timewith me.
I'm going to keep saying everysix months that we have a touch
base on what we're seeing outthere For our listeners.
I will put Christian'sinformation and the Montgomery
group in the show notes.
Christian also said he wasgoing to share a document for
you the way to think about yourday so I'll pop that in there
(52:16):
too.
Listen, who are you gettingyour support from?
I would love to be your coachand help you through this
process, so my information willbe in the show notes.
And until next time, I'm goingto tell you to embrace the
summer slowdown.
It doesn't mean you're stopping, you're just using it
differently to get ready forthat September surge.
Be intentional and always,always, always, be kind.
Thanks for listening everybody.
Hey, welcome to the Career Refresh the show where we
talk about strategy behindnavigating your career, leading
others and always keeping itfresh through reinvention and
professional growth.
I'm Jill Griffin, your host.
I'm an executive coach,strategist and a former media
exec.
I've had about 25 years workingat some of the world's top
brands, leading teams throughgrowth and transition, and now I
(00:22):
help high performers and theirteams align their strengths with
their values, their performancegoals, their identity and
thrive through change.
And speaking of navigatingchange, my guest today is a
podcast favorite and he is backChristian Schwartz.
Christian is the founder of theMontgomery Group, a boutique
search firm that specializes insenior-level marketing and media
(00:44):
placements.
He is a strategic leader withdeep experience both on the
agency side and the client side.
He has worked at Wired Magazine, razorfish, sapien and has also
partnered with world renownedbrands like Visa, verizon,
clorox, unilever and HP.
He brings a wealth of verythoughtful strategic lens into
(01:07):
hiring, growth and what it takesto stand out in today's job
market.
Christian, welcome, I lovehaving you here.
You are a perennial podcastfavorite.
Everyone loves hearing from.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Christian, you're so good.
I just need to record this andlisten to this intro more.
Anytime.
You need to pick me up, but Ireally was looking forward to
this, because there's a lotthat's going on.
I love your views, you'rehonest, and I was just looking
forward to this conversationbecause any way that I or we can
(01:39):
help people hey, that's thename of the game Exactly Good to
hear.
Thank you, and you're the bestvoice.
I sound like a box of rocks, soI need to work on that, but
that's a whole, notherconversation.
I digress.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
You're so funny.
All right, Take us through.
Why don't you start with someof the macro trends that you're
seeing?
And for anybody listening to,this we are recording in
mid-June of 2025.
So go for it.
Tell us some of the macrotrends that you're seeing.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Okay, perfect, let me share with you with what I'm
seeing, but kind of a couple ofthings.
It's like I want to make sureI'm not going to polish anything
.
Some things may be kind ofpretty blunt.
It's not meant for shock value,I just want to be honest.
And then the other part is andI'm not a clickbait guy and it's
really about actionablethoughts, like giving a thought
without kind of how you actionit.
So everything here is going tohave an action.
(02:29):
But I think there are two macrothemes.
One is, let's call it, theenvironment overall, but the
bigger one that I'm seeing, thatis just we can't ignore it's AI
and it is.
I can't even begin to explainhow big this is, and I go back
to the early part of my career.
(02:50):
I saw the internet take shape.
This is exponentially bigger Ifyou look at how fast it's
growing, how fast it's changing,how fast it's changing
everything.
And I play around with it.
I use it a little bit for work,but it's more of what's.
I've been using it for a lot ofthings outside of work and I
speak with a lot of people and Iask them a question if they're
using it.
And I did my own research aswell to validate who I'm
speaking with.
Maybe a third of people that Ispeak with are using it for
(03:13):
basic prompts at best.
One third of those people so10% have done anything beyond a
basic prompt, and that iswoefully low.
It's like you.
Ai is the price of entry and itneeds to be absolute mastery.
Are you going to be the personusing it?
(03:34):
Maybe not, but do you need toknow it, to know how that tool
in your toolbox can be applied?
Yes, and I think that's thebiggest thing for people is just
learn it, own it and make itcore to what you do and how you
think.
It's a force multiplier.
It's not going to replace you,but it's a force multiplier and
that's number one.
What I'm seeing is it'severything right.
(03:56):
I listen to CNBC every morning.
Unemployment is actuallytrending down.
Unemployment is looking better.
Right, there's the tariffs.
That's impacting a little bit.
Payroll ads appear to be up,job openings are kind of holding
flat and it's this weird stateof if we look around in our
world, jill, you would say, wait, those numbers are wrong.
(04:17):
Right.
At the same point, you see, and, like you, look at the stock
market and it's up, everythingis pointing a different
direction.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's so bizarre.
It's so bizarre yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Look every single day I'm looking for more
directional pointers and theycontinue to point in different
directions.
I was hoping for a rate cutyesterday.
The Fed did not cut.
They signaled, but did notofficially announce, that
there'll be two rate cuts thisyear, and I think it's a matter
of it comes down to tariffs.
It comes down to rate cuts thisyear and I think it's a matter
of it comes down to tariffs.
It comes down to rate cuts.
(04:51):
But I do feel, and fromspeaking with people, there
appears to be a coiled up needbecause even coming off COVID,
things were leaner.
Companies became even more leanwith, let's call it, the
thinification and that's goingto leave holes and those holes
need to be filled and thoseholes need to be filled and
those holes need to be roundedout.
And there's some hesitation onmaking those hires because what
is the economy going to do?
What is the need?
What are the impacts of tariffs?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And if I need to borrow the money at a higher
interest rate to pay for thoseemployees.
I don't want, I don't want toRight, and I just I just did an
episode for the podcast aroundhow that entry-level career
ladder is broken.
But I also think it's a falseflag in many ways.
I'm not saying that recentcollege grads haven't had a
problem they absolutely have butthe idea that AI is going to
(05:37):
take every single positionentry-level right now.
It's just not simply true.
There are careers absolutely inwhich we can eliminate that
entry level position right now,but that doesn't mean that small
business and companies haveimplemented that technology.
So there are opportunitiesstill for that junior level.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
See, and that's where I'm an optimist, like, maybe
after spending all that time inconsulting, you become an
optimist where it's not achallenge, it's an opportunity.
And if I go back to my veryfirst job, I learned PowerPoint
my senior year of college.
Look, I'm old, it was a longtime ago.
I remember sitting in aclassroom thinking like when am
I ever going to use this Right?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And then, you went into advertising.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I did a new PowerPoint in 1995.
And the C-level executives werelike wait, this intern knows it
.
I was sitting in there with theC-level people.
It became this elevator for mycareer.
And when I look at AI, it's theexact same thing, where there's
the job, but then there's thejob plus one, and I think people
(06:37):
think that way there's thatopportunity.
I'm just very kind of, I'mpositive too there's that
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I'm just very kind of .
I'm positive too.
I will say I am a littlenervous.
What I'm reading over the lastweek or so is that Trump's
current budget bill would banstates from regulating AI for 10
years, and that means likewithout any legislative
oversight at the state level.
The public is going to becontending with how AI is
shaping their future, whetherthey like it or not.
(07:05):
You know, silicon Valley is apowerful lobbying powerhouse, so
I think we need to be alsothinking about that and if we
like it, do nothing.
If we don't like it, we alsoneed to be calling our
representatives and letting themknow that we can't have another
Section 230 on our hands wherethere is no accountability or
legislation that protects ourpeople.
(07:25):
So I think that also issomething for people to be
thinking about too, if theyhaven't seen that.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and it's almost like look, history has a
tendency to repeat itself.
And you know, I think it's agood time to read 1994, just to
refresh ourselves 84.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
1984.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Did I say oh wow, I'm dating myself 94.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You can edit that one out.
I'm kidding, Leave it no we'llleave it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
It's fun.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I will say, though, if I look at the major trends
that I'm seeing, it's roles aregetting approved and it's about
growth.
At the end of the day, it'sabout growth.
If a role is going to drivegrowth, it will get approved,
fact and at and you know, at thesame point it's going to drive
(08:08):
growth.
But it's the profile of thatperson that is needed, and let's
call it the.
You know the corner office,ivory tower, shiny object person
gone.
That profile is will not seethe light of day and it is a
leader.
But that person is a is abuilder, and they are.
They see the big picture.
They also understand the pipesand the plumbing and how to
direct the team to make thingswork, and they can come in and
they can make an impactpractically day one.
(08:30):
It's not saying they'reswinging a hammer, but they
understand how to apply thetradecraft.
And I also think there's acurious focus and a
human-centric profile that winsthe day, and I'm trying to
understand how to turn this intoresearch.
I could speak with a hundredpeople for a search when I speak
(08:51):
with someone, and I always askthe same questions, which is
tell me what you've been workingon most recently and what do
you want to do?
I want to hear elevator leveldescription.
It's amazing how some peoplewhat do I want to do?
They want to solve thisincredibly complex problem.
They are curious, they will beopen.
(09:11):
These are my strengths andthese are my weaknesses.
It's all out on the table.
They are there with absolute,pure intent.
When that happens, it's likethe C parts.
That's the person, and I workedon a search recently with a
private equity firm.
It was an absolute masterclassin how it came together and what
(09:32):
I really loved about this.
My client said this I can'ttake credit, but often with a
candidate, you get two thirds ofwhat you're looking for and the
remaining one third is a gap.
A gap can be seen as a negativeor a factor, just whatever it
is.
But but her response to thatwas where does this person need
support?
What is that one third supportarea?
And it kind of blew me away tothink about it that way and I
(09:55):
just think it's if it goes to.
What is the trend?
Orgs are flatter.
You need to come in effect.
Change.
You need to be human and justbe a really strong, fit kind of
the I'm everything.
That, that no longer there.
That that no longer, that nolonger applies.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I'm just going to pile on that Cause, the amount
of times that I hear people saywhere I can do anything, or or I
don't know what I want to do.
And it's like I understand thatyou might not know exactly what
you want to do but, dependingon your situation right now, if
being employed is a mandatorymeaning there is no excessive
(10:33):
bank account to keep you afloator there's nobody to help,
anything that's not aligned withyour values and ethics, I'm
just saying, like, right now,look at your resume and find a
way to be able to answer thequestions you said what do I do?
I would go at a step furtherand have people be thinking
(10:57):
about who did I interact with ona regular basis?
I want to hear clients, I wantto hear titles.
I want to know oh, you're ableto talk to the board regularly.
You're not.
You know you're not having achallenge if you have to talk to
the board or the C-suiteexecutives, or you're not having
a challenge talking to theinterns and scaring the crap out
of them, right?
Who, like what, did you do?
Who do you talk to and who didyou interact with?
And then, lastly, what valuedid you create?
(11:18):
You need to be able to tellreally simply the value you
created.
And if you're saying to me youwant a job and you want to be
reemployed and then you'resaying I don't know what I want
to do, I would look at your pastexperience and see if there's
something that you can lean into, because it's not a general
market.
It's we're hiring for impactand we're hiring for specificity
(11:38):
.
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, Now I will sometimes speak with people and
they'll say you know what I'mopportunistic.
It depends upon the situation.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Fair.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, fair, I'm okay with that.
Some recruiters don't like that, I'm okay with it.
I'm okay with that too.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
where four bullet?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
points new job.
Four bullet points new job,four bullet points, new job.
And the last three jobs haven'tchanged.
You haven't adjusted yourbullet points or your story in
(12:12):
five, six, seven, eight years.
You need to rerun your story,in my opinion, through that
filter of the modern world.
What is your story?
And it goes, and this is whereI'm skipping forward a little
bit.
But if I'm going to hire you asa marketer and you can't tell
your own story, how are yougoing to tell the story?
And you're telling me you're anamazing story storyteller for
(12:33):
your brand, but then your storyis falling flat.
Right, so many people.
It's like wait, you're a CV onmy desk.
You know well, I have.
I'm looking around, I havestacks of those right.
Where is the person that hasdifferentiated him or herself
through a thank you note,through sending me an article
(12:53):
that may be of interest to me?
Fill in the blank, right, likesomething around your brand, and
that is just, I think, onething that is missing.
Sorry, I feel like we went offtrack.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
No, I know, but I want to pile on that too, and
then we'll come back to macrotrends.
I would even say, if you didnot get the job or you did not
get the offer, but you like thatcompany and you really enjoyed
the people you met along the way, I would stay in touch with
them through the article thatyou've seen and showing them how
you're thinking or you knowyou're saying I understand.
(13:24):
Thanks so much for theexperience.
I'd like to stay in touch.
Great Now send them an articlea week or two later that shows
how something you talked aboutand what you're seeing and how
it might apply and just beinguseful to people and staying top
of mind.
I've seen quite a few timeswhere somebody didn't get the
job but because they stayed inconnection, a month or two later
(13:44):
they were brought back in foranother opportunity that was
adjacent and they were thecandidate.
I've seen that more than once.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Look time, time and time again.
And there is the art and thereis the science of hiring.
And the science is kind ofperfect fit that doesn't happen
very often and it's the art.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I'm speaking with a client
and or anyone for that matterand they may mention a pain
point.
It's like OK, stop, let's justdig into that, let's let's talk
(14:12):
about that pain point.
And it's like you know, wouldyou like to speak with someone
that I know that has solved thatexact problem problem?
I'm just making an introductionjust because it's quite
honestly, it's the right thingto do.
You'd be amazed how many ofthose have turned into hires
right, because the need isn'talways diagnosed.
But if you're the real solve forthe problem and it's finding
(14:35):
the right problem at the righttime.
And now it's hard, it's reallyhard, but at the same point,
well, it's just, life is hardright and it's increasing that
frequency.
So, jill, yes, that's all I cansay.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yes, okay, coming back, you started to talk about
AI and how people need to be notjust like surface area, but
actually using it.
I have a client right now whohas asked AI to create a
training program for her on AI,so it has given her a
week-by-week training program ofwhat she should know and what
(15:10):
she needs to do, based on whatshe works with in the technology
space, what she needs to bedoing.
So really, really brilliant,okay, what else are you seeing
as some of the macro trends?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yeah, I would say look, there's the strategic
hiring which I hit on, you know.
Look.
Another thing is return tooffice.
Fact, people are going back.
It's going back three to fourdays a week.
There's the outlier of acompany that is pure remote and,
at the end of the day, if youchoose to not lean in, you will
be opted out, and that's.
I don't make the rules, I havemy opinion aside.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
I think that's just a fact.
Yeah, it's also an easy way toreduce workforce by just saying
come back to work, and then theydon't have to worry about you
opted out.
I don't owe you unemploymentnow.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yes, now I do think.
My personal opinion is that Ithink five days a week is
onerous.
I would say if it is returnit's three to four days a week.
But again, my recommendationyou go.
Organizations are gettingflatter, but in some ways I
think that's good because peoplelook bureaucratic.
(16:13):
Organizations have a tendencyto move slow, so I think it's
good, but I think things canbecome too flat and that's where
I really wonder about coachingand how people are set up for
success versus spread thin.
You know, this is alsointeresting too is that I took a
look at my own LinkedIn networkover the course.
We set this meeting up you knowwhat a month ago and in each
(16:34):
week I looked at LinkedIn to seewho in my network was was
looking, and it's about 40% ofpeople on my network are looking
.
I ran some separate researchand that showed also it's
interesting how things line up40% of people are looking and I
think just some of the macrotrends are.
There's this massive log jamright now and it's really about
kind of intentionality and focusand precision what we spoke to
(16:58):
earlier.
Just because with everythingbeing so backed up, unless
you're really focused andprecise and just authentic, it's
not going to fit and I thinkthen you're just taking an
opportunity from somebody else.
It's almost through the karmiclens, okay, you know let's talk
about summer.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I have lots of thoughts here, but let's talk
about summer.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, it's funny you read that was my next thought
that.
So, okay, look here's.
Here's.
What I see is there'sseasonality to this, there's
seasonality and there'sseasonality even down to the
weeks, and what I tell peoplethat are looking is you may have
a busy week, you may have aslow week and there can be a lag
effect.
For example, after, let's say,after Easter, people were
traveling.
(17:40):
If a few people are out, thatcould slow a brief down from
finding its way to me and that'sreal.
So I think don't look at it dayby day, look at it kind of
bigger, bigger picture.
Summer is going to be slow andsummer is slow because people go
on vacation.
People are out, people's headsare elsewhere.
(18:01):
Even if there's an activesearch and I'm dealing with this
right now it's very tough toget meetings scheduled because
people are on vacation.
They're on vacation.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah, but you can network, you can network.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
There we go and that's exactly it.
It's an opportunity to network.
It's an opportunity to retrench.
It's an opportunity to go backto what we were saying earlier,
to define your story, to look atyour LinkedIn.
It's an opportunity to learn AI.
It's an opportunity and, at theend of the day, it's like what
is your strategy and how do youuse moments when it's busy to
(18:33):
use that for outreach, becauseyou don't want to do outreach on
, let's say, tuesday after athree-day weekend?
Right, it's slow, hold yourpowder until the next week.
People are busy that week andit's kind of when and where to
pull versus being in reactionarymode Because I think if you
need to panic.
don't panic, but rather thinklong game and think
(18:55):
strategically.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
So that's my opinion I would add to that Christian is
we're talking US-centric.
So everybody look at thecalendar and your own market and
your own region.
So if we're getting reallyclear what I have seen over the
last 10 years of doing, thisJuly 4th week, it hits on a
Friday.
This year, the week up to itit's gonna be really slow.
(19:18):
So save your energy that week.
Maybe that's the week that youalso take a pause.
If you're looking right, wefind that a lot of parents are
dropping kids off at collegemid-August.
Guess what?
August 15th to 20th or so isprobably going to be really slow
.
It doesn't mean it is, it'sjust saying based on past trends
.
And then, same thing, guesswhat, last week into summer,
(19:40):
into Labor Day, also a timethat's going to be slow.
This does not what I'm tellingyou.
This is I want you to work onyour mindset during those times.
Don't freak out those weeksthat no one's responded to you.
You remember where you are inthe calendar.
Look, I always think of thatDownton Abbey quote by the
Dowager, right, where she's likeweekend, what's a weekend?
(20:02):
Right?
When you're unemployed, everyday kind of feels the same.
But just remember that otherpeople are still following sort
of a workplace calendar.
So that's the time where makethose appointments for coffees.
Can you get face-to-face withpeople.
Not everybody is out.
It's great networking weeks,even if you're interviewing is
(20:23):
on hold.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
If you're looking at it, it's to your point.
It's breaking it down tomanageable pieces and I've
talked about this before.
So I promise I'll go quick andI won't be a broken record and,
jill, I'll supply this documentto you to share out.
But it's a document I createdcalled Win a Day, and when I was
looking for a job in the past,I found myself I had twins that
were born.
I for a job in the past, Ifound myself I had twins that
(20:46):
were born.
I was obviously stressed.
I was wondering is this the endof my career?
It was tough and it wasn't.
But these are the things thatyou think and I basically was
like wait, I need to break thisdown into bite-sized pieces so I
can be good to myself and myfamily and just everybody around
me.
And at five o'clock I would askmyself one simple question with
a checklist, which is did I havea win?
And when things were busy, Imay have three interviews that
day, that's a win.
If things are slow, did Iconduct research and work on
(21:07):
outreach that day?
That's a win and it's a matterof.
If you stack that upconsistently, you will have the
macro win and I think it's a.
There's another article on luckwhich I love, which is luck is
increasing frequency.
If you're skilled and youincrease the frequency, it's
going to work.
So increase frequency and thenthe luck presents itself Like.
(21:30):
I love that concept.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Talk a little bit you've mentioned this to me
before about turning that lullinto leverage and that you have
some sort of strategic thingsthat you think people should do
during that lull.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, I think it's really tell your story.
What is your strategy, defineyour strategy, focus on your
skills.
It's really double and tripledown on that strategy and that
strategic fit so you can make ithappen.
(22:03):
Right, don't do the spray andpray.
I also think you know I thinkthis is also really interesting
is people.
I sometimes get a phone calland it breaks my heart a little
bit and they say I was justimpacted Can you help me get a
new job Now?
I would love to, but, at thesame point, the strategic
probability of me helping youknow, let's say, I have a
(22:24):
network of 10,000 people.
It's going to be low, right,and it's really about your
network and that's where I thinkthat is the most important
thing with that law, which is gothrough your network and find
those people.
And there's a great article andagain, jill, I'll give you
access in about the long tail ofyour network.
Those are the people that arehelpful.
If I look, when I started out insearch, it wasn't my client
(22:46):
that I worked with most recently.
I thought that's where all myprojects were going to come from
.
It was some people that Ihaven't spoken to for 10 years
and they would call out of theblue and say I see you're now
doing this.
I loved working with you beforeand it was strange because you
either thought maybe they forgotabout you or you thought I've
lost touch.
So, therefore, I don't havepermission to then reestablish
(23:08):
this person and those are thepeople.
Therefore, I don't havepermission to then reestablish
this person.
And those are the people.
One is just beautiful toconnect with them.
We're all grown up, we'readults, we have kids.
Wow Right, life has changed andI think it's to really focus on
that intentionality.
Don't spray and pray, don't dothe reactionary what is, what is
your story?
What is your desired outcomesand be very strategic but
(23:31):
intentional to make that work.
I think that's the mostimportant thing, and to really
frame that and to craft that Wasthat helpful.
I feel like I just threw it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, yeah, no, that is.
I want to come back withsomething because you've also
said this to me before, which Ilove is that business problems
don't go on vacation, don't goon vacation.
So when you're thinking aboutthat, turning those power pauses
into a networking approach,right, one of the things that I
(23:59):
think people could be spendingtime in is when we're going into
flatter organizations playercoach.
If I'm a senior person andyou're falling into that idea of
like, oh, it's a flatterorganization, we don't know if
we need it Again, the businessproblem doesn't go away just
because people on vacation.
How could someone be thinkingthrough the player growth coach
roles and start to gain likesteam?
(24:20):
How are they?
How they position themselves asboth a doer and a strategist?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, I would say like here, here's an example is.
Example is I'll be a little bithonest, but my attention
deficit disorder serves me wellin this, in this role, and so
I'm always just looking around,I'm thinking, and you know,
let's say, for example, there'sa, there's a Kava by my house
and Kava just launched a loyaltyprogram.
(24:47):
Great, Right, let's say you'rea loyalty person, We'll just go
down that rabbit hole, you know.
Reach out to the CMO and justsay you know, hey, love your
loyalty program.
I went in, go in and experienceit.
Right, Do some research.
Don't send a large diatribe.
Who doesn't want to receive anemail to say you know what you
just launched?
(25:07):
This significant program Couldbe a campaign.
Fill in the blank.
I went in and I thought it wasgreat.
Maybe there's a small tweakthat you have.
You know, just kind of use yourown best judgment.
Don't be there to sell, butjust be there to say you know,
hey, kudos.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Really well done.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Who does not love receiving an email like that?
Right, you know you're notgoing to send the person an
email and say I am a 30-yearloyalty veteran, right Delete.
But it's like a genuine,sincere acknowledgement where
you actually did your homework.
Now that person may respond andsay thank you.
That's then your opportunity toagain read the tea leaves, see
(25:50):
if you can, somehow, maybe.
Hey, I would love to talk withyou about 20 minutes to get a
sense of what you're seeing.
I happen to be looking, ifyou're comfortable.
Please do not feel obligatedbecause, look, networking
fatigue is real.
Give the person an opt-out.
They may take it, they may not.
If they don't, that's okay.
Just keep in touch, right.
And I think it's where, like Idon't believe it or not,
(26:12):
actually I don't work onbusiness development, I merely
just put good intentions outthere.
I'll send emails like that.
Some may convert, some may not.
The intent isn't for it toconvert.
The intent is just to take careof my network Right, and be in
the inbox and still createresidence and reach.
(26:32):
And that's where you know, look,at the end of the day, there is
some hole burning in the pocketof an organization and I
guarantee you, there was arecent board meeting and that
leadership team was torn apartby the board for said problem.
The CFO may not be willing toauthorize that new role, to
approve it, to solve thatproblem, but right after the
board meeting, I'll tell youwhat.
You know what, that CFO willapprove it and if you can
(26:53):
identify that problem and get infront of it and you're the
solution, you go to the front ofthe line.
It's not a matter of we need tosearch, it's a matter of you
have solved this problem.
Builder profile builder leaderright.
Going back to that, wait, wecan hire this person day one.
They can come in and they canmake an impact.
Who doesn't want to make thepain go away?
(27:17):
Yeah, that is, and you know.
Okay, maybe it's not a fulltime role, maybe it's contract
Great, you know what?
I think that can actually beeven better, because try to give
you a taste.
How many companies did you workfor that were crazy, right?
You know you're married on thefirst date and I think it's just
to think in that way and togive yourself that permission
where you can do that.
Now, if you've only worked withvery small regional companies
(27:39):
and you're reaching out to theCMO of Kava, okay, maybe that's
not the right fit, but again,use your best judgment and
you'll kind of know if you havethat credibility, if you will,
to reach out.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And I would say that this would be a good opportunity
for you to open Chatty G, as Ilike to call it, or Claude,
which I also like, for writingand put in your scenario.
I recently was in a CAVA and Iwant to reach out to the CMO and
provide a couple of tips basedon these three things I said.
I said now, right, so you're.
And then go back through it andmake sure it sounds human, not
anodyne and not robotic.
Right, but you can use it andput your own personality in spin
(28:21):
.
We're not using AI to cut andpaste, we're using it to prompt
thought.
And then I want you to put yourown personality and spin on it.
And and then I want you to putyour own personality and spin on
it.
And if you're asking people ifthey could help you, I want you
to be super clear.
Can I have 10 minutes of yourtime?
If it's open-ended, it might belike I don't have an hour to
give this person this weekbecause I'm so busy.
Can I have 10 minutes of yourtime?
(28:41):
And the last thing I'd say onthat is that, if you are looking
because you may not have theemail address to the CMO there's
a great tool calledrocketreachcom and you can pull
emails off of that.
They'll help you understand thenaming convention.
You still got to get theperson's first and last name
right and put it in, but theywill let you know what the
naming convention is of thedomain so that you can send an
(29:04):
email.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, and you know, and I would even go.
You know, jill, I would loveyour take here, right, and look,
I'm, I'm not young, I'm not old, right, I consider myself wise,
right.
But think of it this way If Idon't have the person's email,
what if I sent that person awonderful letter, Right, like,
I'll be honest, I love gettingthings in the mail and for me to
(29:28):
hold a wonderful piece of paperthat's well-crafted, with
somebody's signature, that's you, I don't know, and I think some
people may recognize it, somepeople may not.
But again, you're not an emailin an inbox, because my inbox is
not, it's not a place of happyfor anybody, but like a
wonderful piece of mail.
There's, okay, there's aclothing store that I go to, the
(29:49):
person that I go to when I buythings there, he always sends me
handwritten thank you notes andwhatever I buy, my most recent
purchase, he'll send me like alittle sketch of it.
I have a drawer full from baby.
I love it and I can't get ridof them because they're just too
precious, and I think if youcan somehow put your brand in
that respect I don't know, Ithink there's something there.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I love, that it has to be authentic, yes, and that
personal touch, yes.
Okay, so we have the summer low, which we've talked about.
We know that there'll be asurge that comes later August,
september, depending again onyour region and where you're at.
So what should people be doing?
(30:30):
Like if they're networkingthroughout the summer, putting
out reaches out again, I don'tcare if people are answering or
not You're building the muscle,you're making practice, you're
finding some people to bemeeting and connecting with.
Okay, we're September.
What's their plan?
What should they be doing?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, your plan to start activating on that
outreach and to really like whoare you going to reach out to in
advance?
Right, like now, it's like whoam I going to target?
What are the roles?
How am I going to make thishappen?
Kind of adjacent to that iswhat is my story, right, and
it's to begin to tee that upthrough those soft touches so
that when September happens, youcan turn it on Right, and it's
(31:06):
almost like having you know,let's call it an A, b and a C
column, right, c is you know,let's call it low pipeline and A
is top Right, and you may movethings within that spreadsheet
and your goal each week is tomove things forward, because by
the time C hits low, low funnel,right, that's where you want to
be, because if you start thatprocess in mid-August, it's too
(31:27):
late.
People are on vacation, right,and it's really about, I think
it's about getting ahead of it,and I also think I think this is
important is some people reachout and it's almost like hey,
what do you have for me?
And it just sits weird, right,so good, and and it just, it,
just, it doesn't sit well wheresome people it's like how are
(31:51):
you?
And it's you know, like how areyou?
Because everyone is dealingwith something and that is just
so lovely.
And I think the other part isyou know, hey, because the
recruiter, everyone calls therecruiter and they want
something.
But it's like how can I helpyou?
And it's like wow, right.
And I think it's, if you'relooking and you're networking
(32:14):
with somebody else, that personmay not be a person that could
hire you, but that person mayneed to know people yeah.
And you may know somebody andit's just the right thing to do.
And I think it's really look,the system is broken, meaning
the hiring process help people,and it's just the right thing to
(32:35):
do.
I can't tell you, jill, howmany times I will speak with
someone that I know there's noactive search.
You could try to say, hey, canI get a fee?
But you're going to be thatrecruiter and I won't be that
person.
It's like, hey, you should callso-and-so because they do just
that.
And it's like, again, file thatunder just the right thing to
do, right, it's not aboutleading with dollar signs, it's
intentionality and just look tohelp and it's gonna come back.
(32:58):
It's gonna come back.
I think that is so importantand it's just putting it out
there and staying consistent andI think it's also being
realistic.
Some people are very unrealisticand you mentioned this once
before and I was reallyimpressed with the way you
thought about this.
And it's like what is yourpipeline?
What is the challenge with yourpipeline optimization to
(33:22):
achieve said outcome?
Because marketers do thatFunnel optimization.
Are you doing that for yourself?
And I was kind of like, huh,just I don't know.
It was interesting.
I think it's to really assessand really optimize that yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I think also what I would say there is again, this
is marketing speak.
And if you don't totallyunderstand, you can go to your
friend chat, gpt and understandwhat we're talking about.
But if you're not getting acall back or an email back, you
have a top of the funnel issue.
You don't have enoughengagement and awareness.
(33:58):
You have a top of the funnelissue.
It's about rest versus depth.
At that point, how many can yousend out?
And again, we're still keepingin mind that we're being
intentional.
It's not a spray or pray,that's not what we're saying.
We're saying that if you'veonly done one outreach this week
, that's a top of the funnelissue.
There's not.
You're not enough out therethat you're catching opportunity
(34:20):
right, that I would say what ifyou aimed for one a day and at
least we're getting five right,so that top of the funnel.
And then if you're getting intothe interview, right, so that
top of the funnel.
And then if you're getting intothe interview but you're not
getting a call back or you don'tmake it past the screener,
that's a mid funnel issue.
You're not converting.
That tells me that there'ssomething about the story you're
(34:41):
telling that's not fitting thejob description.
Not every job description isgoing to be right for you.
But if you get somebody on thephone or you have a pre-screener
and you find that you're notlanding, then there's something
you want to look at in yourstory.
What do you see, christian?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
yes, and I see people not paying enough attention to
that or being the blind self andnot assessing that and
repeating the same behaviors.
And with what you just said, Imean that's the perfect
opportunity for our friend chatGPT, right, which is I'm going
(35:21):
to feed you the roles I'veapplied for my resume, my cover
letter, the feedback that I wasgiven, the job description, the
threads, back and forth.
Maybe you interviewed, maybe itwas a phone interview.
For example, I use granolaaifor note-taking, which is
amazing, but you can also thenimport it into chat GPT and
(35:45):
there are things that you maynot have heard, that you said,
or things that they may havesaid, and you can say give me
feedback, where was I fit, wherewas I not a fit?
And then you can say, hey,based on you know, this search
and all of your information,what learnings can I have?
And I guarantee you look, is itgoing to be perfect?
(36:07):
No, is it directional feedback?
Absolutely, and that will giveyou feedback.
That is your blind self.
You probably would have missed80% of the stuff in there and I
think that's the key thing whereit's process improvement,
because the more you do the same, the more you'll get frustrated
, and the more you're frustrated, the more you don't show up,
and that's a negative cycle,yeah, and it's reversing that
(36:29):
cycle.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, and in your practice, like I love what you
just said there about anotherstrategic way of using AI, In
your practice you could also say, based on this job description
and my resume, ask me questions.
If you're the engineer, thehead of engineering, what
questions might they ask me so Ican be prepared?
(36:50):
What questions might you knowthe founder be asking me versus
HR, and really the amount oftimes people tell me that they
stumble on so tell me aboutyourself?
Here's the hint no one.
It's not really about you, it'sabout them and their company.
They're not saying you can'tsay anything personal like oh, I
just came back from a greatvacation, Sure, Whatever, but
(37:12):
it's about aligning.
When they say, tell me aboutyourself, aligning who you are
and your career narrative to thejob description and the
company's mission.
That's what they're asking for.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, and do, look, go through and do all of your
regular research, Always do yourresearch At the same point.
You know this is a greatexample.
There's someone I was speakingwith last week and he said he
was about to have an interviewwith a.
We'll just say Google, we'llchange the company's name and
you know it's like oh great,great company, very Great
company, very senior role, vplevel role.
They obviously have a veryspecific style of interviewing.
(37:45):
Hey, are you going to useChatGPT to practice your
interview?
And the response was no, andrather there is a copious amount
of information about how Googleconducts its interviews.
You, in theory, could replicatethat same exact interview using
the app with the voice.
I use it all the time to talkto it and then basically say,
hey, let's go through threetrial scenarios.
(38:07):
Give me the first, give mefeedback.
Let's go through the second.
And did I make improvements?
What can I do?
Because it's there's you andthere's how you show up, right?
I know a lot of great peoplethat just don't show up well,
and that's okay, because if theydon't show up well, but if I
know they're great, if I'veknown them for some time, I'll
(38:28):
support them.
Because, just because you don'tshow up well in the interview
doesn't mean you're the perfectperson.
It just means you need somesupport.
But not every company will giveyou that.
And if a company will give thatto you, great.
But if Chad GPT can help youget out of your own way, there
we go.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Right, yeah, yeah, and it's all there.
The tools are there.
Okay, I was a couple of supertactical questions.
Um, I know you're a huge fan ofthank you notes handwritten, so
am I, if not emailed?
If you don't handwrite, atleast email?
Cover letters is a big debateon if they require a cover
letter, you got to send one Ifit's optional.
Question one is should theysend one and two?
(39:08):
What I often see is the coverletter just repeats the resume
and it's like yawn.
So what are you seeing in bestpractices within cover letters?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, that's a good one.
So I'll be honest, I don't readcover letters.
What I will, I will skim themand you know, let's go back
pre-ai.
There were probably three orfour cover letters that I saw
that were just so well written,they were just brilliant and
actually I shared it with theresume of, like.
This person is an amazingstoryteller, Like this.
(39:44):
This cover letter is such apiece of art that it had to be
included.
Right At the same point Istarted to notice a trend.
Maybe it was last summer.
There were a lot more greatcover letters coming through and
it's kind of like oh, it's AIand actually one.
I'll be honest, it's AI andactually one.
(40:05):
I'll be honest, it fooled meand I think I even asked the
candidate and then I ran itthrough software that said it
was completely AI written and Ieven commented to that person
that it was a great cover letterand, I'll be honest, they
didn't admit it.
Now, this is a real gray area.
Should they have admitted it ornot?
Now, this is a real gray area.
Should they have admitted it ornot?
At the end of the day, justdon't do it.
(40:25):
Don't do it right Now.
Is it there to guide you Isthere to give input.
Do you run it through GrammarlySure, go for it.
But if it's not, you and yourwords, when you show up day one,
it's just it's going to be adisconnect and that's just.
It's going to be a disconnect,it's and that's just.
Don't, don't, don't, do it.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Right, it's like having a 10 year old dating
profile photo, like who'sactually showing up here?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, yes, I do need to update my LinkedIn picture,
but that's a whole notherproblem.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Jill yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Right, but I think it's just to be authentic.
Whereas maybe you're not agreat writer that's okay that
doesn't mean you may not begreat at what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
But do you think a cover letter should be a
reiteration of the resume or isthere another take on the cover
letter?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
There has to be another take.
Look, I don't want to read areiteration of your resume.
I can look at your resume andso I would say no.
And I'll be honest if somebodycan send a wonderful three to
five sentence articulation, thatis soulful.
That's going to get me everytime Right.
Can you say more with less?
The long diatribe nobody hastime.
(41:38):
People, they still.
What is it?
Seven seconds the averageperson spends on a resume.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
I think it's eight on a LinkedIn profile and seven on
the resume.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Look.
And here's the other thing.
This happens time and timeagain.
I'll be speaking with a clientMaybe we're having a
conversation and I will say, hey, I just sent through a new
profile, I'd love to get yourfeedback.
You hear them clicking on thekeyboard.
They're not opening the resume,they're going to the LinkedIn
profile.
And you know I have nothing toprove this, but you know, you go
(42:11):
to the LinkedIn profile, youskim it and you look at the
picture.
Human beings are visual.
That's the fact, right, andit's just for some reason,
people go to LinkedIn and theyskim LinkedIn before they even
look at the resume.
And by the time they skimLinkedIn, the decision is made.
Whether it's right or wrong,it's just kind of how it works.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Okay, last question, this one I get asked a lot how
often should I be following up?
Let me be clear I went on theinterview, I wrote my thank you
notes to everyone and, whetherit's the recruiter or even HR,
depending on how the interviewis set up, how often can I
follow up?
(42:53):
I interviewed last week and Ihaven't heard anything.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I hear that a lot.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, so there's a real problem with ghosting and
that's just unacceptable.
And something that I strive foris that, by the time I leave
the office every Friday, all ofmy clients and every candidate
will know where everythingstands as they head into the
weekend.
Right, that's just a courage.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Even if you're saying so, even if it's like hey, jill
, just want to let you know Idon't have any updates with you,
know, and yet have a greatweekend.
So even you'll send a proactive, no news email.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Absolutely, jill, I know you interviewed on Tuesday
waiting for feedback.
Some people were out of theoffice.
They're working to gatherfeedback.
I'm hoping to have it earlynext week.
I will reach out as soon as Ihear just those gentle touches
because, look, it's emotionaland going into a weekend your
head does not need to bethinking about work.
But if you know, people are onvacation it's not me, at least
you know and that's where I, Iand again, I try.
(43:54):
I'm not perfect but I try to dothat.
Not every company does that andI'm not a fan and that's a
whole nother conversation.
A fan and that's a whole notherconversation.
I would say the opposite end issome people will be, you know,
waiting for three weeks and theydon't reach back and that can
be negative, kind of let'sconsider that a lack of interest
if the candidate doesn't reachout, so it's weekly.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Okay, can I?
Can I email them weekly?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I would say maybe every other week, just to slow
the cadence down a little bit,right?
So let's say I interview onMonday, let's say it's Friday.
I haven't heard back.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
And maybe you wait, and I've sent my thank you notes
.
Obviously, that's all been done.
Okay, it's Friday.
I haven't heard back.
When am I allowed to reach outagain?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, I would say maybe wait until.
Wait until Tuesday, okay, andyou know, and and when I, when I
send notes to follow up, younever want the person to feel
obligated because that'snegative.
But it's more of a hey want toexpress my interest.
I want to check in.
I understand you're busy.
(44:58):
If you have any updates, pleaselet me know.
There we go.
Keep it, keep it short, right?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Um so, how long can I do that for?
It goes into a month, it goesinto a month and a half and I
haven't heard.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, I mean, I guess my question is you know, let's
go back, Jill, let's go back toour dating years, right?
If we go on our first date andit takes you a month to call me
back, why don't I go on a seconddate with you?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, I would agree, cause if, even having been in
that position before, where I'mlike waiting on finance to do
something or I don't have ananswer, I might proactively,
without a promise, send acandidate.
Really enjoyed meeting with you, still waiting on some
information.
I hope to be in touch with yousoon.
Just keep you warm.
(45:43):
But again, not everybody wasraised by our parents.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
And I think and I think that's the big thing, I
think you know you I will tellcandidates this and if I'm even
working on a search, I will geta bat for my clients the same
point if they're delayed withtheir feedback.
I will also be honest, becauseeverybody needs to be honest
with everybody and you know it'snot uncommon for, let's say,
someone takes a long time forfeedback.
It's like you know, hey, youcan only say this in a few words
(46:11):
, but it's like is this a rolethat you're still interested in
now, knowing what you know?
Yeah, right, and it's.
There are different roles fordifferent people at different
stages of their career, andmaybe it's a more transactional
role and I'm okay, great.
Maybe it's a place where I wantto grow and crush it and thrive
and really dig in and betreated well.
How you're treated during theinterview process gives you a
(46:35):
pretty good sense of what it'sgoing to be like when you're-.
What you're walking into, and Ithink it's to be really honest
with yourself with that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I had a situation personally years ago where I
thought everything went greatand then I just went radio
silent and I talked to you know,like a mentor and asked him
what he thought I should do,because he knew the CEO that I
was interviewing with and hesaid follow up.
He's like that's strange,especially because he was the
(47:05):
connector in.
So I wrote the CEO an emailthat just said like hey, I
understand priorities change andtimelines changed and I wonder
if you could give me anyfeedback on my interview Meaning
I wrote it assuming that thiswas done right, this wasn't
happening, but very gracious, noresentment, just saying like I
(47:25):
understand priorities anddesires change.
If you could give me anyfeedback on my journey, you know
, on my interviewing journey,that would help me in the future
.
I would be really appreciated.
No sooner did I hit send thanmy cell phone rang with his name
across and he was like I am sosorry.
I thought we told you andbasically they didn't have the
(47:48):
budget, they shot high budgetwasn't approved and it would
have been, you know, me workingfor like a 75% pay cut which I
wasn't interested in doing.
Anyway, they gave me fantasticfeedback, which I understand
legally is not what they can do.
They just said here's what wethought you were great.
They didn't give me anyconstructive criticism because,
(48:08):
again, it was about a budgetissue and that was it.
But I got past that fear ofit's okay that you didn't pick
me.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, you know.
Look, I would love, like myinbox gets jammed up.
Fact, and the easiest way ifyou send me an email I don't
know, maybe it's last week,right, if you send a follow-up
again, hey, kicking this to thetop of your inbox, there's guilt
that kicks in.
Jill, I will respond to thatimmediately, right, and we will
(48:38):
be speaking the next day, andthat's okay.
Now, if you do that and theperson then doesn't respond,
it's like wait, is this amanager you'd want to work for?
They're ignoring you.
You did share one thing and Istrive to do this so much which
is feedback, and I think we allowe it to each other and
(48:59):
companies are just so afraid toyour point with the legality,
with feedback, and it's okay,because someone may be looking
and maybe their profile wasslightly off.
Okay, maybe they need to knowthat.
They're going to know it wasn'tthem, and I think it's to give
them that answer.
So when they walk away, theyhave the understanding of
(49:20):
whether they could have donebetter, and sometimes it's not.
It's just the reality ofwhether they could have done
better and sometimes it's not.
It's just, it's just thereality of what your profile is.
And to share that feedback orsomeone maybe they did something
that was uncharacteristicallyoff.
Share that.
I just think it's a.
I'm really big on that.
It's more, more feedback.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
What I would say, though, to everybody listening
lower your expectations, becausethe legal department and HR
department is going to say youcan't give feedback.
What I would say if anybodywho's in the position of hiring
give the positive feedback, thenIf you can't give the reason
why you know what.
You really weren't that strongin coding, and that was obvious,
(50:03):
that you weren't able like.
You can't say things like that.
It's squishy.
But then give feedback.
That's like listen, you were anexcellent presenter, you were
great storyteller, you werelikable.
We're moving forward withanother candidate again.
You have to check with yourlegal department, you have to
check with your hr what you canand can't say.
But giving feedback, they sayit's a gift.
(50:24):
It, it, it really is, and Ithink they're not going to, but
you can ask for it.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, it's.
No, it's yeah, I will say,though I also think it's to have
empathy for the internalrecruiters, because they are
really overworked and they arereally taxed, and I think it's
to have empathy because theirdepartments have often been cut
to the bone.
They are viewed as cost centers, not value adds to the
(50:53):
organization, which is ironic,because talent is the key fuel
for any company, and there was alarge company that I worked
with and my internal contact wasthe internal executive recruit
consultant Fantastic, and wewere having a holiday lunch at
the end of the year and he toldme how many searches he worked
on.
I think he filled 60 roles overthe course of one year.
(51:16):
Jill, I don't even know how hecould keep that straight.
Right, that's insane.
What is your KPI for yourperformance and what is your
bonus based on?
It's based upon how many peopledid we put in seats, fact, and
a lot of what I do is much morestrategic, and there's that
artisan aspect.
(51:37):
In a role like that, thatperson is not being.
Those are not their KP, theirKPIs, and it's really to
understand who the person is andwhat their goal is, and I say
their motivation, becausethey're doing what their remit
is, and so I just think to keepthat in mind is really important
.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah, christian, this has been so helpful.
I love that you spend this timewith me.
I'm going to keep saying everysix months that we have a touch
base on what we're seeing outthere For our listeners.
I will put Christian'sinformation and the Montgomery
group in the show notes.
Christian also said he wasgoing to share a document for
you the way to think about yourday so I'll pop that in there
(52:16):
too.
Listen, who are you gettingyour support from?
I would love to be your coachand help you through this
process, so my information willbe in the show notes.
And until next time, I'm goingto tell you to embrace the
summer slowdown.
It doesn't mean you're stopping, you're just using it
differently to get ready forthat September surge.
Be intentional and always,always, always, be kind.
Thanks for listening everybody.
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