September 30, 2025 • 29 mins
Layoffs are gut-wrenching and increasingly common, leaving many professionals reeling with grief and uncertainty. But they don’t define your future. My guest, Steve Jaffe, has been through multiple layoffs and turned those experiences into The Layoff Journey: From Dismissal to Discovery, a book about reframing job loss as an opportunity for reinvention.
- Practical tools you can use right away to recover after a layoff.
- Fresh perspective on turning job loss into discovery and redefining your identity.
- The real meaning of resilience—why it’s less about bouncing back fast and more about moving forward with purpose.
Show Guest:
Steve Jaffe, author and former advertising executive behind iconic campaigns, blends creativity, empathy, and strategic insight. Based in Altadena, he writes, consults, and inspires resilience and reinvention through authentic storytelling. His first book is The Layoff Journey From Dismissal to Discovery: Navigating the Stages of Grief After Job Loss . To learn more, visit TheSteveJaffe.com
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Build a Leadership Identity That Earns Trust and Delivers Results.
- Gallup CliftonStrengths Corporate Workshops to build a strengths-based culture
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jill Griffin (00:00):
Hey everyone, I'm Jill Griffin and this is the
Career Refresh.
Today we're talking aboutlayoffs and whether you're
directly or indirectly impactedby layoffs.
This is something that I thinkwe all need to have a greater
awareness about either how tosupport former colleagues who
might have been layoff, how tolead within an organization if
you are someone who remainedafter the layoff, and then, of
(00:23):
course, if you are the persondirectly impacted by the layoff,
and then, of course, if you arethe person directly impacted by
the layoff.
So today we're tackling thelatter, the person who's
directly impacted by the layoff.
And look, it is an opportunity.
When you get through and usethe tools that we're going to
talk about today.
It is an opportunity forreinvention if you choose to
take it.
My guest today is Steve Jaffe,who has lived through multiple
(00:46):
layoffs, as many of us who workin tech have, and he also wrote
the book the Layoff Journey FromDismal to Discovery.
It's a book on how to processthe grief, reframe the
experience and to move forwardwith clarity and resilience.
We're going to talk about thetools that he believes will help
and where to see possibilityand opportunity on the other
(01:07):
side of job loss.
So let's dig in.
Dave, welcome.
I'm really glad that we'refinally having this conversation
.
Steve Jaffe (01:17):
Thanks so much.
It's great to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
Jill Griffin (01:20):
So I'd love for you to give a little bit of
background about yourself.
I mean, obviously you'vewritten this fantastic book, but
I'd love for you to tell ourreader, our watchers, our
viewers and our listeners howyou got here.
The Layoff Journey FromDismissal to Discovery.
Steve Jaffe (01:36):
And it's a book that helps people navigate the
stages of grief after job loss.
So I'll give you my backgroundand it kind of gives the story
arc and how I got where I amtoday.
(01:56):
So I have a 25-year career inadvertising and marketing, spent
some time in advertisingagencies and the story picks up.
It's spring of 2001.
I'm working at an ad agency inSan Francisco.
I've just gotten married andthings are going great.
Great agency, great client,everybody's happy.
(02:18):
It's literally and figuratively, the springtime of my life.
Very unexpectedly, I get calledinto a conference room and told
in short order that the clientis cutting their budget, the
agency is cutting their staffand, thank you, your services
are no longer needed.
You have five minutes to cleanout your desk.
And I was very much taken offguard and I didn't really have
(02:42):
any coping skills to manage thatsituation in a healthy way and
it took me a very, very longtime to overcome.
Fast forward, it's summer 2023.
And now this is the fourthlayoff of my career and I sail
right through it.
It's like water off a duck'sback and it doesn't have the
same effect on me.
I do some self-reflection and Irealized that over the course
(03:06):
of those years and those layoffsI learned a set of coping
skills that allowed me to seethe layoff for what it was, what
it is, and really move throughit very quickly.
And I was laid off at that lasttime with about 20% of the
company, and some of those folkswere very, very close friends
of of mine, people that I hadreally developed a close bond
(03:28):
with, and I wanted to share withthem what I learned from my
10,000 hours of going throughlayoffs like I wanted to take my
expertise and help them withtheir experience.
Some of them were very youngdoing their.
Some of them were very young,new in their career.
Some of them were experiencingtheir second layoff in 12 months
and I felt like I had somethingthat I could share that would
(03:51):
help them, and it was then thatI realized that would be the
subject for a book.
Not only could I help the 20% Iwas laid off with, but I could
help so many more people too.
So I wrote the book and itpublished in February and I've
been out promoting it now.
And I had no idea that 2025 wasgoing to be such a huge year
(04:13):
for layoffs, not only in, youknow, the corporate business
world, but in government as wellunprecedented layoffs.
So the world we live in nowit's not a question of if you're
going to get laid off, but when.
So this is a practical guidethat helps someone navigate
(04:36):
those stages of grief.
Jill Griffin (04:37):
Yeah, really, really important, and I can
relate both personally and fromthe hundreds of clients that
I've worked with over the yearswho have been laid off.
You know I often joke that mylife was a signing bonus in a
severance package.
Yeah, that, especially when youwork in tech and marketing and
when the two of those crossright, that triangulation of
(04:59):
that plus a layoff is probablygoing to happen at some point,
is probably going to happen atsome point.
And you know, I also think, aswe ground through this, there'll
be future podcasts that I'mdoing about what the leaders can
do, what the colleagues can do.
But this particularconversation is what you the
person who's been directlyimpacted with the layoff needs
to be thinking through.
So, again, I really appreciatethat you're putting this good
(05:20):
work out there, because it'ssomething that, like you, the
first time I was laid off, yeah,it was gut punched.
The second time, the third time, I was just like show me the
numbers, I'll piece it out,we'll see you on LinkedIn, like
it was totally fine, there wasno drama to it, and I realized
that that is because I alwaysbelieve that resilience is built
in the rearview mirror.
(05:41):
You don't realize you need tobe resilient as you look back
and you're like oh, thatactually wasn't as hard as I
thought, so I love that you'recoming up with tools and tips
that people can easily follow.
So my first question for you isobviously we just discussed
you've been laid off more thanonce what were some of those
emotional hits?
I do want to talk about theparts of grief.
(06:01):
Part one is like what were someof those emotional hits?
Tell us how you felt.
Yeah, yeah.
Steve Jaffe (06:07):
So let me frame it with the stages of grief.
In terms of the book, there areseven of these stages.
They were created by abehavioral researcher Her name
is Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and sheobserved these internally ill
patients as they were on theirjourney.
They went through these stagesand their friends and family
(06:30):
also went through these stagesand they became kind of widely
accepted.
For any of life's traumaticevents, people usually go
through these things.
So, like a divorce, a layoff iscertainly a traumatic event and
they include denial, anger,bargaining, depression,
(06:51):
acceptance, reconstruction andrenewal.
So I read those off kind of innumerical order, but they don't
always follow that linear pathand you don't go through them
one at a time.
Sometimes they're mixed up.
Sometimes you'll experience allof them in one day and some
(07:12):
amazing, awesome days you don'texperience any whatsoever.
Depending on your own lifeexperience, you may experience
some more than others, others.
I certainly in in the shock ofthe initial layoff, notification
, denial, absolutely my, my, mybody kind of gets real hot and
(07:39):
sweaty and my brain gets realfoggy.
I kind of don't really hearevery word that's being said.
It's a really, really likethings kind of start to shut
down Right and that's your bodypreserving itself.
There's too much information toprocess.
Jill Griffin (07:51):
Yeah.
Steve Jaffe (07:52):
Yeah.
So it's a, it's a protectionmechanism and it's healthy,
right, certainly, I've feltanger and the bargaining stage.
You know you kind of bargainwith like what could have I have
done differently, what couldhave I have said differently,
how could I handle the situationdifferently?
(08:12):
But you're also bargaining witha severance agreement.
Right, you're bargaining on theterms of your departure.
So the bargaining stage can beboth literal, right, right, yeah
, and I will tell you that Iabsolutely probably the hardest
stage for me was depression.
I very much took a layoff.
(08:35):
Personally, I had a lot on theline in terms of, like, my
identity and who.
I was wrapped up in that joband when I didn't have that job
any longer, I was questioningmyself who am I without this job
?
What does it mean about me as aperson?
What does it mean about myabilities and my skills and my
(08:56):
intelligence?
All roads you do not want to godown that are basically dead
ends.
So how do you suggest peoplestop that?
Jill Griffin (09:01):
Because that's sort of the natural that the
brain is going to do Right,right, right.
So how do you suggest peoplestop that?
Because that's sort of thenatural that the brain is going
to do.
Steve Jaffe (09:06):
Right, right, right .
So what you have to do is notdefine your identity based on
what's printed on that businesscard.
That title and job and whateverelse is attached to it is
transitory and you don'tnecessarily own that.
What you do own are your skills.
(09:28):
So if you have 25 years ofmarketing experience and let's
say you have a level ofexpertise in software technology
, saas, for example, those areinalienable skills that you take
with you wherever you go Um thejob may come and go, but you
(09:49):
will always be that talentedmarketing executive.
So, not defining your identityby what you do, but also going a
step deeper and finding purposeand joy and passion in um how
you're finding fulfillment inyour life.
So so your only fulfillment cannot be the job.
(10:12):
You have to have a well-roundedum kind of whole person, whole
body, um, um understanding ofpeople around that Right.
Jill Griffin (10:24):
So um um client has small children, has aging
parents, you know, working hardwithin their job.
There's not a lot of fat,there's not a lot of extra time.
Any extra time is going to carefor the children or the aging
(10:46):
parent.
How am I getting through that?
How am I?
How am I finding other areas ofinterest that my job doesn't
become all of?
Steve Jaffe (10:55):
it Right, right, so one of the things that a layoff
can do that that is difficultwhen you're working, but I would
invite people to try and findthis at any point is a pause,
some time to sit, and, whetherit's meditation or praying, a
(11:16):
few minutes alone, quietly,grounding yourself, being
present, will open up your mindto your purpose and your passion
and your values, right?
So certainly if you're working60 hours a week and your
paycheck is keeping everythingafloat, you may not have the
(11:37):
luxury of going off and pursuingsome other career that may not
pay as much, but what you can dois build a more well-rounded
personal life.
So if that means journaling, ifthat means regular exercise, a
healthy diet, good sleep, agratitude practice, all of these
(12:03):
things will get you thinking ina positive, healthy kind of
mind, body, spirit approach.
That will give you more purposeand meaning beyond that nine to
five job, so that if you dolose that job, you have one
really healthy coping skills,but you also have an
(12:24):
understanding of who you areoutside of that job, right?
Jill Griffin (12:28):
No, I appreciate that.
I mean I always suggest thatyou figure out your
non-negotiables right.
What are your non-negotiablesright away?
That for me, my listeners knowI'm a traumatic brain injury
survivor so my firstnon-negotiable is sleep.
Health and wellness has to be,otherwise I ain't here and I
ain't functioning.
Not a possibility.
You know, morning meditation,practice.
(12:49):
All of that has to come first.
That fills the bucket first andthen from there doing
everything else.
I think depending on wherepeople are in their career
trajectory and there's a verydifferent trajectory for Gen
Xers, boomers, versus, you know,gen Zers, the more seasoned or
the more experiencedprofessional, is not going to be
(13:11):
in a situation where they cameup through the ranks with that
ability for that space and graceright.
I think that we are talkingabout it more and I also think
that conversations like you andI are having now are really
important in those areas, to behaving conversations to let you
know our younger brothers andsisters that are coming up the
ranks to say plan it, grab it.
I'm hearing more of them aredoing it, are making sure that,
(13:33):
yes, work is important and Iwant to be fulfilled that way,
both intellectually andfinancially, and be contributing
in a way, but I also need tomake sure that I'm carving out
that time.
So I love that you're anchoringon that.
I think it's really, reallyimportant when you start to
think about the ways you moveforward.
So you gave some examples therearound health and meditation
(13:54):
and prayer and journaling andall really really healthy
practices.
What were some of the otherways that you moved through that
depression?
Steve Jaffe (14:03):
Yeah, those gave me really good skills.
For example, like exerciseopens up serotonin and dopamine
and oxytocin great um umchemicals your body releases
naturally to battle depression.
Um, I learned to limit alcoholintake.
Alcohol is a depressant, badcombination if you have a
(14:25):
propensity for depression.
So, um, and I would say thatthe gratitude practice in a
layoff gets your mind trained tothink about what you still have
, what's of benefit, what'spositive.
In a layoff, you tend to kind ofruminate on what you've lost,
so it's good to rethink that.
Also really good to take thattime and think about.
(14:58):
You know, is your career pathexperiencing contraction?
Is there a blue sky openingahead of you that you might be
able to pivot into?
At one point I found that, likemarketing, generalist roles
were being eliminated en masse.
Roles were being eliminated enmasse and I started to see a lot
of product marketing managerjob openings.
(15:18):
And as I looked at those I saw,with a kind of a new narrative
and some edits to my resume, Icould adjust my experience to
highlight how what I've done inthe past is relevant, those
transferable skills.
Jill Griffin (15:33):
Those transferable skills.
Right Again, you have toactually have the experience or
get trained in the experience,because we never want to put
something out there that's nottrue but really massaging those
transferable skills.
Steve Jaffe (15:44):
Yeah, right, right.
And then I also learned reallya method of positive thinking
and positive reframing.
There's something that I liketo frame around like if you get
stuck in a loop of negativethoughts, you know the one that
(16:05):
grows is the one that you feed.
So if you feed those negativethoughts, they're just going to
continue to grow.
If you feed your positivethoughts, get on a positive loop
, that's what's going to grow.
So it's really important in thelayoff particularly and those
stages of grief, that, like yousaid, you start to look forward
and you don't look backwards.
(16:25):
It's really easy to think aboutwhat could I have done?
What would be different.
Instead, think about what willI do next?
Where do I go from here?
And look forward rather thanbackward.
Jill Griffin (16:39):
Yeah, yeah.
It's making me think of anotherconcept that I talk about a lot
about surrender versusacceptance.
And the idea of acceptingdoesn't mean I have to like it
in this scenario, it means itwas supposed to happen.
How do I know?
Because it happened.
So we need to accept that thisis the reality of where we are.
(17:02):
When we're in a place of like,submission, like okay, fine, but
you know, I'm going to figurethis out or I'll show them, or
I'm going to make them wish theydidn't fire me.
All welcome to being human, allvery natural thoughts.
But when we're in those twopieces to your point, what you
focus on increases, and ifyou're focusing on the parts of
(17:23):
what you're leaving, then that'sgoing to continue to stay with
you as you're building what'scoming next, whereas you're
focusing on the acceptance orsort of the surrender of okay,
fine, this happened.
Again, I don't have to like it.
That's not what we'resuggesting.
We're simply saying, if that'sthe reality, only when I accept
where I am can I move forward.
Only when I accept that I amsitting in New York City can I
(17:45):
then figure out how to get toCalifornia, because I need to
know where I'm starting and Ithink that's a really important
reframe of what you're talkingabout too.
Steve Jaffe (17:52):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think about acceptance, aswhat you're talking about is
like this tug of war withinyourself, right, and the only
way to win that tug of war is todrop the rope and walk away,
right, and that's when you canbegin to then move forward.
Otherwise, you're just stuck inthe battle.
Jill Griffin (18:11):
You're in that cycle and listen, as you said,
this is not linear.
You might have a good day andthen tomorrow you are right back
into that story of what youwould have said and what you
should have said and da, da, da,and that's normal, Just inside
voice.
Call a friend, call a therapist, call a coach.
Figure out a way to processthrough it.
All of that's very normal, andknow that it might also sneak up
(18:35):
at you at times that are justlike grief.
I mean, I talk a lot about thetragic death of my brother just
a short, about two years ago,just short time.
And how, like, how do you stillfunction and work?
How do you still show up?
How do you process the stagesof grief where you're in the
silent scream and you're likewhoa, this is not right and I
have to function and you need togive yourself the space for
(18:57):
that in order to move forward.
It's really really important,important work.
And, again, that's why I lovethe fact that you were pairing
the stages of grief that many ofus are familiar with into the
job.
So when you think about thatframework, you know how did you
sort of use that framework,having the awareness right, how
(19:21):
did you use that framework toguide the choices that you were
making next?
Steve Jaffe (19:26):
Yeah, you know, I think originally I fell into
some sort of like healthy carepractice by accident, primarily
driven by the need to battlethat depression and anxiety that
started to create some of thatfoundational groundwork
(19:57):
groundwork, but in time thenother learnings.
I'm a growth mindset, lifelonglearner.
I believe every opportunity isan opportunity to learn and grow
.
So I started to be more open tolearning what the experience
was trying to teach me andtrying to find, rather than be
focusing on the past and whatwas taken from me, what I could
do with it.
So I started to see this lessas a roadblock and more of a
(20:19):
detour.
I started to feel like this waswhat I knew to be true was.
This was not the whole book ofme and and who I am and what I
am.
This was merely a chapter um inthat book and I I could write
that story of what came next.
So it was about sort of risingfrom the ashes and it was very
(20:43):
much over time, I think Ilearned how to be resilient.
I learned how to get down, getknocked down eight times and
stand up nine or, in this case,get laid off four times and come
back a fifth time, you know.
So I started to be less focusedon what the job was and what it
(21:06):
said about me and more focusedon who I am and what I bring and
what my values and desires andpassions are.
So it was a little bit of amind shift and a different kind
of frame of mind.
Jill Griffin (21:22):
Okay, Okay.
So let's get a little tactical.
Someone's listening to this.
They were just laid off lastweek.
Okay, Step one you'resuggesting they get your book.
Step two for those of us untilthey can get the book, what do
you suggest that they do?
Steve Jaffe (21:36):
Yeah, take a minute , take a pause, take a very deep
breath, know that what you'regoing through and what you're
feeling is normal and it's okay.
Right, give yourself a big hugand tell yourself what you would
tell a friend that was goingthrough this.
If a friend just called you andsaid, hey, I've been laid off,
you'd be really comforting tothem, you'd be really
(21:58):
understanding.
You tell them it's going to beokay.
Have that conversation withyourself and give yourself some
time to experience these stagesof grief before you go out and
you update your resume and yougo on LinkedIn and you try and
get job interviews.
It's really important toprocess this in some way before
(22:19):
you move on.
If you process this in a healthyway and you start to come to
terms with it and you begin thatacceptance and reconstruction
and renewal, when you do go onthe job interview and somebody
says to you well, tell me aboutyour last job, what happened, or
tell me why you want this job,you're going to be in a much
better position to answer thatquestion.
(22:39):
In a way where it's not thisbig elephant in the room that
you're trying to avoid or you'restumbling and stammering.
You can say I'm a 25-yearmarketing executive with a lot
of great skills and experience,and I'm looking forward to
bringing them to this job.
You don't even have to mentionthe last employer.
You don't even have to go there.
(23:00):
If you're still carrying thatbaggage, it shows up in that
interview.
It's important to give yourselfsome time really and let
yourself experience this andkind of manage your way through
it.
Jill Griffin (23:14):
Okay, what if someone doesn't really have the
time that you know, based onseverance or unemployment, or
depending on their own personalscenarios, what would you
suggest that they do?
Steve Jaffe (23:28):
What would you suggest that they do.
Yeah, I mean, at minimum giveyourself a week just to take a
breath, for all things.
If you get laid off on a Friday, a Monday morning, don't start
doing your resume.
Jill Griffin (23:41):
Don't set the alarm.
Steve Jaffe (23:42):
Take a minute and give yourself just a beat to
accept and process what'shappened.
A beat to to accept and and andprocess what's happened.
Um, and, and you know, whileyou're getting back into it, you
you need to replace the routinethat you've lost.
So it's important to replacethat routine with a healthy one
and find those things that maybeyou're already doing, that you
(24:05):
can do more of, and find thethings that you can start doing
that might replace old unhealthyhabits.
Right, so you can start doingthat might replace old unhealthy
habits.
Right, so you can start ahealthy routine while you're
still on the job hunt and youcan start to take some of these
lessons into practice.
Right, some gratitude, somereframing of the experience,
(24:26):
starting to look ahead andforward to what the opportunity
may bring for you.
So those are things that youcan do simultaneously, but you
do need a minute just to pause.
Jill Griffin (24:39):
Yeah, Okay, I really appreciate that.
So you've said that because Iread your book that balance and
adventure are guiding values foryou.
Give us some insight on howthose principles shape the way
you navigate uncertainty andreinvention in your career.
Steve Jaffe (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I find that after a layoff
there are some parallels towhat one would think of as an
adventure.
You know, it's kind of an openroad, um, it's a new beginning,
um, there's some uncertainty and, um, and there's a level of
like survival in that too.
(25:16):
So that was, I was able to thinkabout it in terms of, of, of
that framework, and I thinkabout, like the song from the
beatles about you know the magic, the magical mystery tour, and
I started to think about knowlife.
In a lot of ways it's a magicalmystery tour that we're on and
you don't necessarily knowwhat's around every corner.
(25:38):
But if you um approach it withthat level of positivity and
like this is, this is anadventure, let's see what the um
, what life brings, um, let'ssee what life brings.
It opened me up to be not asresistant and more welcoming to
(25:59):
what was coming.
So, and I think finding healthybalance in all of this was a
great way for me to find anopening into, like a healthy
self-care, a holistic mind, body, spirit.
That gave me the baseline toreally deal with any of life's
(26:19):
challenges, not just the layoff.
So I think but I appreciatethat answer I haven't been asked
that before.
Jill Griffin (26:27):
Yeah, good, you mentioned at the start of our
conversation that you you knowthis was the fourth layoff Some
of your colleagues it might havebeen their first or second, and
they were in a different space,mental space, than you were and
I'm guessing that was sort ofthe impetus of putting all of
this together, together.
(26:51):
Do you have any feedback fromany of those colleagues that
have taken this and now kind ofput this plan into action?
Anything that you can againprotecting anonymity, of course,
but anything that you can share?
Steve Jaffe (26:58):
Yeah, you know, it was one.
There was one person inparticular that I really wanted
to talk to and that personbecame kind of who I was writing
the book for.
And that person became kind ofwho I was writing the book for
and so I was really eager toshare the book with them.
I never told them that theywere really who I wrote the book
for and secretly I was reallyafraid God, what if they don't
(27:21):
like the book?
What if they hate it?
But I did get feedback fromthem that they really
appreciated it.
In fact they said they weregoing to recommend it to friends
and that was a really greatmoment for me that the person
that I wanted to pull aside andgive this advice to found it
(27:45):
valuable.
Jill Griffin (27:47):
I love that you had that experience.
Yeah, yeah, and my hope is thattoday's conversation gives you
(28:08):
some tips and trips.
Obviously, check out Steve'sbook.
I want to hear from you.
If you have questions for Steve.
You can email us at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom, and we
will get those questions toSteve or to myself and we'll get
them answered.
We'll even bring them back ifwe have enough questions for it.
But as always, friend, remember, reinvention is possible and
(28:29):
I'm asking you to really slowdown, take that pause, as Steve
has also suggested, and giveyourself a little space and
grace during this.
And know that it's not linear.
It's not like you go throughthat phase.
You're not going to slip back.
There may be some random timethat all of a sudden you find
yourself back there, and all ofthat is very normal and very
human.
So be intentional, be kind andwe'll see you soon, thanks,
Hey everyone, I'm Jill Griffin and this is the
Career Refresh.
Today we're talking aboutlayoffs and whether you're
directly or indirectly impactedby layoffs.
This is something that I thinkwe all need to have a greater
awareness about either how tosupport former colleagues who
might have been layoff, how tolead within an organization if
you are someone who remainedafter the layoff, and then, of
(00:23):
course, if you are the persondirectly impacted by the layoff,
and then, of course, if you arethe person directly impacted by
the layoff.
So today we're tackling thelatter, the person who's
directly impacted by the layoff.
And look, it is an opportunity.
When you get through and usethe tools that we're going to
talk about today.
It is an opportunity forreinvention if you choose to
take it.
My guest today is Steve Jaffe,who has lived through multiple
(00:46):
layoffs, as many of us who workin tech have, and he also wrote
the book the Layoff Journey FromDismal to Discovery.
It's a book on how to processthe grief, reframe the
experience and to move forwardwith clarity and resilience.
We're going to talk about thetools that he believes will help
and where to see possibilityand opportunity on the other
(01:07):
side of job loss.
So let's dig in.
Dave, welcome.
I'm really glad that we'refinally having this conversation
.
Steve Jaffe (01:17):
Thanks so much.
It's great to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
Jill Griffin (01:20):
So I'd love for you to give a little bit of
background about yourself.
I mean, obviously you'vewritten this fantastic book, but
I'd love for you to tell ourreader, our watchers, our
viewers and our listeners howyou got here.
The Layoff Journey FromDismissal to Discovery.
Steve Jaffe (01:36):
And it's a book that helps people navigate the
stages of grief after job loss.
So I'll give you my backgroundand it kind of gives the story
arc and how I got where I amtoday.
(01:56):
So I have a 25-year career inadvertising and marketing, spent
some time in advertisingagencies and the story picks up.
It's spring of 2001.
I'm working at an ad agency inSan Francisco.
I've just gotten married andthings are going great.
Great agency, great client,everybody's happy.
(02:18):
It's literally and figuratively, the springtime of my life.
Very unexpectedly, I get calledinto a conference room and told
in short order that the clientis cutting their budget, the
agency is cutting their staffand, thank you, your services
are no longer needed.
You have five minutes to cleanout your desk.
And I was very much taken offguard and I didn't really have
(02:42):
any coping skills to manage thatsituation in a healthy way and
it took me a very, very longtime to overcome.
Fast forward, it's summer 2023.
And now this is the fourthlayoff of my career and I sail
right through it.
It's like water off a duck'sback and it doesn't have the
same effect on me.
I do some self-reflection and Irealized that over the course
(03:06):
of those years and those layoffsI learned a set of coping
skills that allowed me to seethe layoff for what it was, what
it is, and really move throughit very quickly.
And I was laid off at that lasttime with about 20% of the
company, and some of those folkswere very, very close friends
of of mine, people that I hadreally developed a close bond
(03:28):
with, and I wanted to share withthem what I learned from my
10,000 hours of going throughlayoffs like I wanted to take my
expertise and help them withtheir experience.
Some of them were very youngdoing their.
Some of them were very young,new in their career.
Some of them were experiencingtheir second layoff in 12 months
and I felt like I had somethingthat I could share that would
(03:51):
help them, and it was then thatI realized that would be the
subject for a book.
Not only could I help the 20% Iwas laid off with, but I could
help so many more people too.
So I wrote the book and itpublished in February and I've
been out promoting it now.
And I had no idea that 2025 wasgoing to be such a huge year
(04:13):
for layoffs, not only in, youknow, the corporate business
world, but in government as wellunprecedented layoffs.
So the world we live in nowit's not a question of if you're
going to get laid off, but when.
So this is a practical guidethat helps someone navigate
(04:36):
those stages of grief.
Jill Griffin (04:37):
Yeah, really, really important, and I can
relate both personally and fromthe hundreds of clients that
I've worked with over the yearswho have been laid off.
You know I often joke that mylife was a signing bonus in a
severance package.
Yeah, that, especially when youwork in tech and marketing and
when the two of those crossright, that triangulation of
(04:59):
that plus a layoff is probablygoing to happen at some point,
is probably going to happen atsome point.
And you know, I also think, aswe ground through this, there'll
be future podcasts that I'mdoing about what the leaders can
do, what the colleagues can do.
But this particularconversation is what you the
person who's been directlyimpacted with the layoff needs
to be thinking through.
So, again, I really appreciatethat you're putting this good
(05:20):
work out there, because it'ssomething that, like you, the
first time I was laid off, yeah,it was gut punched.
The second time, the third time, I was just like show me the
numbers, I'll piece it out,we'll see you on LinkedIn, like
it was totally fine, there wasno drama to it, and I realized
that that is because I alwaysbelieve that resilience is built
in the rearview mirror.
(05:41):
You don't realize you need tobe resilient as you look back
and you're like oh, thatactually wasn't as hard as I
thought, so I love that you'recoming up with tools and tips
that people can easily follow.
So my first question for you isobviously we just discussed
you've been laid off more thanonce what were some of those
emotional hits?
I do want to talk about theparts of grief.
(06:01):
Part one is like what were someof those emotional hits?
Tell us how you felt.
Yeah, yeah.
Steve Jaffe (06:07):
So let me frame it with the stages of grief.
In terms of the book, there areseven of these stages.
They were created by abehavioral researcher Her name
is Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and sheobserved these internally ill
patients as they were on theirjourney.
They went through these stagesand their friends and family
(06:30):
also went through these stagesand they became kind of widely
accepted.
For any of life's traumaticevents, people usually go
through these things.
So, like a divorce, a layoff iscertainly a traumatic event and
they include denial, anger,bargaining, depression,
(06:51):
acceptance, reconstruction andrenewal.
So I read those off kind of innumerical order, but they don't
always follow that linear pathand you don't go through them
one at a time.
Sometimes they're mixed up.
Sometimes you'll experience allof them in one day and some
(07:12):
amazing, awesome days you don'texperience any whatsoever.
Depending on your own lifeexperience, you may experience
some more than others, others.
I certainly in in the shock ofthe initial layoff, notification
, denial, absolutely my, my, mybody kind of gets real hot and
(07:39):
sweaty and my brain gets realfoggy.
I kind of don't really hearevery word that's being said.
It's a really, really likethings kind of start to shut
down Right and that's your bodypreserving itself.
There's too much information toprocess.
Jill Griffin (07:51):
Yeah.
Steve Jaffe (07:52):
Yeah.
So it's a, it's a protectionmechanism and it's healthy,
right, certainly, I've feltanger and the bargaining stage.
You know you kind of bargainwith like what could have I have
done differently, what couldhave I have said differently,
how could I handle the situationdifferently?
(08:12):
But you're also bargaining witha severance agreement.
Right, you're bargaining on theterms of your departure.
So the bargaining stage can beboth literal, right, right, yeah
, and I will tell you that Iabsolutely probably the hardest
stage for me was depression.
I very much took a layoff.
(08:35):
Personally, I had a lot on theline in terms of, like, my
identity and who.
I was wrapped up in that joband when I didn't have that job
any longer, I was questioningmyself who am I without this job
?
What does it mean about me as aperson?
What does it mean about myabilities and my skills and my
(08:56):
intelligence?
All roads you do not want to godown that are basically dead
ends.
So how do you suggest peoplestop that?
Jill Griffin (09:01):
Because that's sort of the natural that the
brain is going to do Right,right, right.
So how do you suggest peoplestop that?
Because that's sort of thenatural that the brain is going
to do.
Steve Jaffe (09:06):
Right, right, right .
So what you have to do is notdefine your identity based on
what's printed on that businesscard.
That title and job and whateverelse is attached to it is
transitory and you don'tnecessarily own that.
What you do own are your skills.
(09:28):
So if you have 25 years ofmarketing experience and let's
say you have a level ofexpertise in software technology
, saas, for example, those areinalienable skills that you take
with you wherever you go Um thejob may come and go, but you
(09:49):
will always be that talentedmarketing executive.
So, not defining your identityby what you do, but also going a
step deeper and finding purposeand joy and passion in um how
you're finding fulfillment inyour life.
So so your only fulfillment cannot be the job.
(10:12):
You have to have a well-roundedum kind of whole person, whole
body, um, um understanding ofpeople around that Right.
Jill Griffin (10:24):
So um um client has small children, has aging
parents, you know, working hardwithin their job.
There's not a lot of fat,there's not a lot of extra time.
Any extra time is going to carefor the children or the aging
(10:46):
parent.
How am I getting through that?
How am I?
How am I finding other areas ofinterest that my job doesn't
become all of?
Steve Jaffe (10:55):
it Right, right, so one of the things that a layoff
can do that that is difficultwhen you're working, but I would
invite people to try and findthis at any point is a pause,
some time to sit, and, whetherit's meditation or praying, a
(11:16):
few minutes alone, quietly,grounding yourself, being
present, will open up your mindto your purpose and your passion
and your values, right?
So certainly if you're working60 hours a week and your
paycheck is keeping everythingafloat, you may not have the
(11:37):
luxury of going off and pursuingsome other career that may not
pay as much, but what you can dois build a more well-rounded
personal life.
So if that means journaling, ifthat means regular exercise, a
healthy diet, good sleep, agratitude practice, all of these
(12:03):
things will get you thinking ina positive, healthy kind of
mind, body, spirit approach.
That will give you more purposeand meaning beyond that nine to
five job, so that if you dolose that job, you have one
really healthy coping skills,but you also have an
(12:24):
understanding of who you areoutside of that job, right?
Jill Griffin (12:28):
No, I appreciate that.
I mean I always suggest thatyou figure out your
non-negotiables right.
What are your non-negotiablesright away?
That for me, my listeners knowI'm a traumatic brain injury
survivor so my firstnon-negotiable is sleep.
Health and wellness has to be,otherwise I ain't here and I
ain't functioning.
Not a possibility.
You know, morning meditation,practice.
(12:49):
All of that has to come first.
That fills the bucket first andthen from there doing
everything else.
I think depending on wherepeople are in their career
trajectory and there's a verydifferent trajectory for Gen
Xers, boomers, versus, you know,gen Zers, the more seasoned or
the more experiencedprofessional, is not going to be
(13:11):
in a situation where they cameup through the ranks with that
ability for that space and graceright.
I think that we are talkingabout it more and I also think
that conversations like you andI are having now are really
important in those areas, to behaving conversations to let you
know our younger brothers andsisters that are coming up the
ranks to say plan it, grab it.
I'm hearing more of them aredoing it, are making sure that,
(13:33):
yes, work is important and Iwant to be fulfilled that way,
both intellectually andfinancially, and be contributing
in a way, but I also need tomake sure that I'm carving out
that time.
So I love that you're anchoringon that.
I think it's really, reallyimportant when you start to
think about the ways you moveforward.
So you gave some examples therearound health and meditation
(13:54):
and prayer and journaling andall really really healthy
practices.
What were some of the otherways that you moved through that
depression?
Steve Jaffe (14:03):
Yeah, those gave me really good skills.
For example, like exerciseopens up serotonin and dopamine
and oxytocin great um umchemicals your body releases
naturally to battle depression.
Um, I learned to limit alcoholintake.
Alcohol is a depressant, badcombination if you have a
(14:25):
propensity for depression.
So, um, and I would say thatthe gratitude practice in a
layoff gets your mind trained tothink about what you still have
, what's of benefit, what'spositive.
In a layoff, you tend to kind ofruminate on what you've lost,
so it's good to rethink that.
Also really good to take thattime and think about.
(14:58):
You know, is your career pathexperiencing contraction?
Is there a blue sky openingahead of you that you might be
able to pivot into?
At one point I found that, likemarketing, generalist roles
were being eliminated en masse.
Roles were being eliminated enmasse and I started to see a lot
of product marketing managerjob openings.
(15:18):
And as I looked at those I saw,with a kind of a new narrative
and some edits to my resume, Icould adjust my experience to
highlight how what I've done inthe past is relevant, those
transferable skills.
Jill Griffin (15:33):
Those transferable skills.
Right Again, you have toactually have the experience or
get trained in the experience,because we never want to put
something out there that's nottrue but really massaging those
transferable skills.
Steve Jaffe (15:44):
Yeah, right, right.
And then I also learned reallya method of positive thinking
and positive reframing.
There's something that I liketo frame around like if you get
stuck in a loop of negativethoughts, you know the one that
(16:05):
grows is the one that you feed.
So if you feed those negativethoughts, they're just going to
continue to grow.
If you feed your positivethoughts, get on a positive loop
, that's what's going to grow.
So it's really important in thelayoff particularly and those
stages of grief, that, like yousaid, you start to look forward
and you don't look backwards.
(16:25):
It's really easy to think aboutwhat could I have done?
What would be different.
Instead, think about what willI do next?
Where do I go from here?
And look forward rather thanbackward.
Jill Griffin (16:39):
Yeah, yeah.
It's making me think of anotherconcept that I talk about a lot
about surrender versusacceptance.
And the idea of acceptingdoesn't mean I have to like it
in this scenario, it means itwas supposed to happen.
How do I know?
Because it happened.
So we need to accept that thisis the reality of where we are.
(17:02):
When we're in a place of like,submission, like okay, fine, but
you know, I'm going to figurethis out or I'll show them, or
I'm going to make them wish theydidn't fire me.
All welcome to being human, allvery natural thoughts.
But when we're in those twopieces to your point, what you
focus on increases, and ifyou're focusing on the parts of
(17:23):
what you're leaving, then that'sgoing to continue to stay with
you as you're building what'scoming next, whereas you're
focusing on the acceptance orsort of the surrender of okay,
fine, this happened.
Again, I don't have to like it.
That's not what we'resuggesting.
We're simply saying, if that'sthe reality, only when I accept
where I am can I move forward.
Only when I accept that I amsitting in New York City can I
(17:45):
then figure out how to get toCalifornia, because I need to
know where I'm starting and Ithink that's a really important
reframe of what you're talkingabout too.
Steve Jaffe (17:52):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think about acceptance, aswhat you're talking about is
like this tug of war withinyourself, right, and the only
way to win that tug of war is todrop the rope and walk away,
right, and that's when you canbegin to then move forward.
Otherwise, you're just stuck inthe battle.
Jill Griffin (18:11):
You're in that cycle and listen, as you said,
this is not linear.
You might have a good day andthen tomorrow you are right back
into that story of what youwould have said and what you
should have said and da, da, da,and that's normal, Just inside
voice.
Call a friend, call a therapist, call a coach.
Figure out a way to processthrough it.
All of that's very normal, andknow that it might also sneak up
(18:35):
at you at times that are justlike grief.
I mean, I talk a lot about thetragic death of my brother just
a short, about two years ago,just short time.
And how, like, how do you stillfunction and work?
How do you still show up?
How do you process the stagesof grief where you're in the
silent scream and you're likewhoa, this is not right and I
have to function and you need togive yourself the space for
(18:57):
that in order to move forward.
It's really really important,important work.
And, again, that's why I lovethe fact that you were pairing
the stages of grief that many ofus are familiar with into the
job.
So when you think about thatframework, you know how did you
sort of use that framework,having the awareness right, how
(19:21):
did you use that framework toguide the choices that you were
making next?
Steve Jaffe (19:26):
Yeah, you know, I think originally I fell into
some sort of like healthy carepractice by accident, primarily
driven by the need to battlethat depression and anxiety that
started to create some of thatfoundational groundwork
(19:57):
groundwork, but in time thenother learnings.
I'm a growth mindset, lifelonglearner.
I believe every opportunity isan opportunity to learn and grow
.
So I started to be more open tolearning what the experience
was trying to teach me andtrying to find, rather than be
focusing on the past and whatwas taken from me, what I could
do with it.
So I started to see this lessas a roadblock and more of a
(20:19):
detour.
I started to feel like this waswhat I knew to be true was.
This was not the whole book ofme and and who I am and what I
am.
This was merely a chapter um inthat book and I I could write
that story of what came next.
So it was about sort of risingfrom the ashes and it was very
(20:43):
much over time, I think Ilearned how to be resilient.
I learned how to get down, getknocked down eight times and
stand up nine or, in this case,get laid off four times and come
back a fifth time, you know.
So I started to be less focusedon what the job was and what it
(21:06):
said about me and more focusedon who I am and what I bring and
what my values and desires andpassions are.
So it was a little bit of amind shift and a different kind
of frame of mind.
Jill Griffin (21:22):
Okay, Okay.
So let's get a little tactical.
Someone's listening to this.
They were just laid off lastweek.
Okay, Step one you'resuggesting they get your book.
Step two for those of us untilthey can get the book, what do
you suggest that they do?
Steve Jaffe (21:36):
Yeah, take a minute , take a pause, take a very deep
breath, know that what you'regoing through and what you're
feeling is normal and it's okay.
Right, give yourself a big hugand tell yourself what you would
tell a friend that was goingthrough this.
If a friend just called you andsaid, hey, I've been laid off,
you'd be really comforting tothem, you'd be really
(21:58):
understanding.
You tell them it's going to beokay.
Have that conversation withyourself and give yourself some
time to experience these stagesof grief before you go out and
you update your resume and yougo on LinkedIn and you try and
get job interviews.
It's really important toprocess this in some way before
(22:19):
you move on.
If you process this in a healthyway and you start to come to
terms with it and you begin thatacceptance and reconstruction
and renewal, when you do go onthe job interview and somebody
says to you well, tell me aboutyour last job, what happened, or
tell me why you want this job,you're going to be in a much
better position to answer thatquestion.
(22:39):
In a way where it's not thisbig elephant in the room that
you're trying to avoid or you'restumbling and stammering.
You can say I'm a 25-yearmarketing executive with a lot
of great skills and experience,and I'm looking forward to
bringing them to this job.
You don't even have to mentionthe last employer.
You don't even have to go there.
(23:00):
If you're still carrying thatbaggage, it shows up in that
interview.
It's important to give yourselfsome time really and let
yourself experience this andkind of manage your way through
it.
Jill Griffin (23:14):
Okay, what if someone doesn't really have the
time that you know, based onseverance or unemployment, or
depending on their own personalscenarios, what would you
suggest that they do?
Steve Jaffe (23:28):
What would you suggest that they do.
Yeah, I mean, at minimum giveyourself a week just to take a
breath, for all things.
If you get laid off on a Friday, a Monday morning, don't start
doing your resume.
Jill Griffin (23:41):
Don't set the alarm.
Steve Jaffe (23:42):
Take a minute and give yourself just a beat to
accept and process what'shappened.
A beat to to accept and and andprocess what's happened.
Um, and, and you know, whileyou're getting back into it, you
you need to replace the routinethat you've lost.
So it's important to replacethat routine with a healthy one
and find those things that maybeyou're already doing, that you
(24:05):
can do more of, and find thethings that you can start doing
that might replace old unhealthyhabits.
Right, so you can start doingthat might replace old unhealthy
habits.
Right, so you can start ahealthy routine while you're
still on the job hunt and youcan start to take some of these
lessons into practice.
Right, some gratitude, somereframing of the experience,
(24:26):
starting to look ahead andforward to what the opportunity
may bring for you.
So those are things that youcan do simultaneously, but you
do need a minute just to pause.
Jill Griffin (24:39):
Yeah, Okay, I really appreciate that.
So you've said that because Iread your book that balance and
adventure are guiding values foryou.
Give us some insight on howthose principles shape the way
you navigate uncertainty andreinvention in your career.
Steve Jaffe (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I find that after a layoff
there are some parallels towhat one would think of as an
adventure.
You know, it's kind of an openroad, um, it's a new beginning,
um, there's some uncertainty and, um, and there's a level of
like survival in that too.
(25:16):
So that was, I was able to thinkabout it in terms of, of, of
that framework, and I thinkabout, like the song from the
beatles about you know the magic, the magical mystery tour, and
I started to think about knowlife.
In a lot of ways it's a magicalmystery tour that we're on and
you don't necessarily knowwhat's around every corner.
(25:38):
But if you um approach it withthat level of positivity and
like this is, this is anadventure, let's see what the um
, what life brings, um, let'ssee what life brings.
It opened me up to be not asresistant and more welcoming to
(25:59):
what was coming.
So, and I think finding healthybalance in all of this was a
great way for me to find anopening into, like a healthy
self-care, a holistic mind, body, spirit.
That gave me the baseline toreally deal with any of life's
(26:19):
challenges, not just the layoff.
So I think but I appreciatethat answer I haven't been asked
that before.
Jill Griffin (26:27):
Yeah, good, you mentioned at the start of our
conversation that you you knowthis was the fourth layoff Some
of your colleagues it might havebeen their first or second, and
they were in a different space,mental space, than you were and
I'm guessing that was sort ofthe impetus of putting all of
this together, together.
(26:51):
Do you have any feedback fromany of those colleagues that
have taken this and now kind ofput this plan into action?
Anything that you can againprotecting anonymity, of course,
but anything that you can share?
Steve Jaffe (26:58):
Yeah, you know, it was one.
There was one person inparticular that I really wanted
to talk to and that personbecame kind of who I was writing
the book for.
And that person became kind ofwho I was writing the book for
and so I was really eager toshare the book with them.
I never told them that theywere really who I wrote the book
for and secretly I was reallyafraid God, what if they don't
(27:21):
like the book?
What if they hate it?
But I did get feedback fromthem that they really
appreciated it.
In fact they said they weregoing to recommend it to friends
and that was a really greatmoment for me that the person
that I wanted to pull aside andgive this advice to found it
(27:45):
valuable.
Jill Griffin (27:47):
I love that you had that experience.
Yeah, yeah, and my hope is thattoday's conversation gives you
(28:08):
some tips and trips.
Obviously, check out Steve'sbook.
I want to hear from you.
If you have questions for Steve.
You can email us at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom, and we
will get those questions toSteve or to myself and we'll get
them answered.
We'll even bring them back ifwe have enough questions for it.
But as always, friend, remember, reinvention is possible and
(28:29):
I'm asking you to really slowdown, take that pause, as Steve
has also suggested, and giveyourself a little space and
grace during this.
And know that it's not linear.
It's not like you go throughthat phase.
You're not going to slip back.
There may be some random timethat all of a sudden you find
yourself back there, and all ofthat is very normal and very
human.
So be intentional, be kind andwe'll see you soon, thanks,
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