November 5, 2024 • 51 mins
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What if business could be more like art? Join me for a special birthday episode of Epochal Growth, where Craig Crisler, CEO and co-founder of SupportNinja, shares his unique journey from serial entrepreneurship to leading with humility and authenticity. Craig's personal story of recovery deeply influences his approach to leadership, bringing a fresh perspective on creating value in business through genuine relationships. Together, we explore the idea of business as an art form, where thoughtful interactions can have a lasting impact, much like a masterpiece.
Craig and I dig into the unconventional paths of leadership within the outsourcing industry, emphasizing the importance of surrounding yourself with smarter individuals to drive growth and innovation. We share insights from our career journeys, highlighting how diverse experiences contribute to a unique leadership style. As SupportNinja grew, he remained committed to redefining traditional BPO models and embracing global collaboration, which has been pivotal in enhancing business practices and outcomes. Our candid discussion sheds light on the complex dynamics of customer experience (CX) and the significance of integrating it into the core business strategy.
The episode takes a heartfelt turn as we discuss finding alignment and fulfillment in both personal and professional life. Craig draws a beautiful analogy to the Beatles' harmonious era, describing a stage where everything feels in sync. We explore the joy and contentment that come from aligning our passions and efforts with our true selves, despite challenges. Craig's analogy of a band creating great music encapsulates the essence of striving for balance and fulfillment, celebrating the peace that comes with living and working authentically.
“Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”
- Barack Obama
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Caminiti (00:07):
Welcome to a very special episode of Epical
Growth.
I'm your host, sarah C, and Iam so happy that you're here.
Today's conversation is notonly the second to last episode
of season one of Epical Growth,but it's being released on my
birthday, so it feels like theperfect time to reflect on
(00:28):
growth and leadership and thepower of transparency.
This has been such a remarkableyear.
I've been spending a lot oftime reflecting on this
incredible year and this journeythat I've been on with all of
you, and I'm just so proud ofthis moment and I'm really
excited to see where 37 takes me.
Joining me today is CraigChrysler, ceo and co-founder of
(00:52):
Support Ninja.
Craig shares his insights oncreating value in business,
building authentic relationshipsand leading with humility.
Whether you're a seasonedleader or you're just starting
out, there's something here foreveryone.
All right, let's dive in.
Craig Crisler (01:09):
Awesome.
Well, um, brief introduction onme, so like, um, so I'm Craig
Crisler, CEO of Support Ninja.
I'm one of the founders, one ofthe three founders, of Support
Ninja.
Um, I'm, you know, I would sayI'm a serial kind of startup guy
, like that's been my career mywhole life.
Uh, it's been doing startups um12 companies, four exits.
(01:29):
Um, you know, really seen thethe, the worst and the best of
it in terms of all of that stuff.
So I learned a lot along theway.
Um, interesting snippet.
I always tell people I don'tmind sharing it.
I'm in recovery.
Sarah Caminiti (01:45):
I've been in recovery for a long time.
Craig Crisler (01:46):
Congratulations, yeah, thanks, and so that's a
huge part of who I am now andwho I was too.
It actually is part of who Iwas, it's part of my story, and
so it's an interesting.
It informs a lot of what I do,but my focus has always been in.
What I love about business ispeople.
I just fundamentally enjoyworking with people and the
(02:09):
interaction and the way in whichyou create value for people and
work with people.
I just thoroughly enjoy that.
That's the part that excites methe most the product, the
service, all of those companiesthat I've been with and helped
work on so many different typesbut the one consistent thing was
people.
That was always consistent inevery single business I was in.
(02:29):
So I just I love working withand inspiring and and um,
hopefully, working for people tomake them better, um and so
that that just inspires me everysingle day.
Sarah Caminiti (02:41):
Gosh, what a great career trajectory to
acknowledge the thing that youlove the most and then build
around it.
Craig Crisler (02:48):
Yeah, yeah, well it's.
It's funny it cuts back to thispoint.
So there's a point in my life,like, where I really wanted I
wasn't sure because I was amusician so, like the like my
first company I ever did, Istarted a record company.
I was 15 and I'm in the Bayarea, california, and and it was
great, it was fantastic, it wasfun, but it was just weird
(03:10):
timing.
But what was interesting aboutit?
Like I had gotten to this pointin my career where, like I
didn't feel like it was, I was,I wanted to be a rock star, but
I wasn't.
Like I knew being a rock staris like being Michael Jordan,
it's like one in a million.
It's really hard to do, and so,um and so, uh, there was a point
in my career and I was talkingto a mentor and this was in a
(03:32):
company, um that I have back inHawaii, and I was kind of a
mentor and I really had thiskind of like, is business art?
You know?
It was like this thing that Ifelt and I was like, is business
really art?
Like, is it, you know, am Icreating something?
Um and um, because I, I still Ithink I had pipe dreams of
being a musician.
Still, even then, you know, um,and my mentor at the time he was
(03:55):
like how do you know theinteractions that you do with
people, the way in which youlook at the way businesses run
and create value for people, howdo you not see that as art?
It's hard to not realize thatthat is truly art.
And um, and so from that, likethat was my like, oh, okay, so
it is art.
Like what I do in business isart and what I do with people is
(04:15):
it's art.
You know, it's just a different.
It's not what you traditionallythink of as art, you know.
Sarah Caminiti (04:28):
Wow, I really love that concept it is.
There's so much purpose behindit, because you have to be
intentional when you create andyou have to be thoughtful when
you create, and each interactionis an opportunity to create
something that lasts with people, just like art sticks with you
and lasts with you and, uh,that's really beautiful.
What a great thing for yourmentor to to connect those dots
(04:52):
with you.
Craig Crisler (04:53):
Well, and it's that thing of where you know if,
if you're a leader, or you know, or if you're, even if you're
just working in a company, likepeople bless you with their time
, right, Like, and they give youthis, you know, portion of
their life, right, and if and ifyou're not doing the best that
you can to make that portion oftheir life meaningful in some
(05:15):
way, then you're probably notdoing the best job that you
could be doing to make it work.
And that's where that intention, you know, like that kind of
push towards, like how do youmake it?
And it cuts back to I was justtalking to a friend about this.
We were talking about how, likeyou know, you'd overdate people
who are rude to waitresses orwaiters.
You know, like it's like acommon thing, right?
We just don't do that,Especially for folks who work in
(05:37):
CX, like you and I do, Like wedefinitely know that we're just
like no Hard pass.
Yeah, exactly, and we weretalking about this.
And it comes to thatintentionality thing, I think,
where it comes down to thatpoint of where you say, okay,
well, that person who's working,whatever they're doing, you're
(05:58):
taking their time too, right,Even the people that you're
trying to create value for as acustomer, and so you want it to
be purposeful and you want it itto be full of intention and you
want it to actually createvalue.
And if it doesn't do that, thenyou know, or or you demean it
in some way, then you'reactually demeaning the value
creation that you both could bedoing together.
So if you're rude to a waiter,you may not get the best food,
(06:22):
and so wouldn't you rather worktogether to create a value for
each other?
You know, and like build, youknow, a better meal for yourself
?
Sarah Caminiti (06:30):
Yeah, I got the chills there.
That was really.
That was really good.
Yeah, it's so true.
Though it's uh and and workingin CX, we do have a very
different headspace than I thinkmost people do.
Um, I say to when I'm talkingabout anyone coming on to this
podcast.
I say that you're gifting mewith your time because that is
(06:52):
what you're doing and I lovethat you expressed that in such
a similar vein.
And for something as easy asgoing to a restaurant, and for
something as easy as going to arestaurant, everybody is a
customer.
Everybody is a customer in someway, shape or form, and you do
(07:13):
have an opportunity to help thembe as successful as they
possibly can be without thattaking away from you and your
experience and your journey.
It is an opportunity tocollaborate and just learn Uber
(07:40):
driver or my waitress, orsomeone who's a coffee barista
at a coffee shop, because I makeit a purposeful moment to
engage and connect.
And gosh I, even now that Ithink about it.
I just got a flash.
(08:00):
I went to a movie by myself andthere was one other woman in the
movie uh movie theater and sheended up coming over and sitting
with me.
We ended up talking for twohours, the movie started over
again because we were still inthe movie theater.
Um and uh, and I ended uphelping her with a mentorship
program for the ymca that sheworks at and like, and and the
(08:22):
ymc was in washington dc and itwas just like she happened to be
here for a conference, shehappened to have a minute and
she happened to go to thisrandom movie in the middle of
the day.
And it's you rob yourself of somuch opportunity to explore and
to grow and just take a chanceby not approaching things the
(08:48):
way that you described, craig,the way that you do approach
things, and I think that's areally important thing for
people to think about when theygo into the world.
Craig Crisler (08:56):
Right.
Well, and it's that you know onthe, you know thinking about it
from that CX perspective and Ithink that you kind of hit the
nail on the head in terms oflike what we think of as good CX
perspective.
And I think that you kind ofhit the nail on the head in
terms of like what we think ofas good CX is, like really, it's
about the co-creation of value,right Like between a customer
and whoever's you knowperforming the CX right Like
(09:17):
you're actually trying toco-create value with this client
or customer or whatever it is.
And it's that approach that youknow.
That's where you see, I thinkthat's where you see excellence
in CX right, like is the, whatis the people who are doing it
that way and thinking about itin that way and talking about
how you know, is the productsolving the problem?
And if it's not solving theproblem, how do we make it solve
(09:38):
the problem?
And brand and all that otherstuff you know, and the ones
that do it extremely well, arereally about this collaboration
of these like random instancesof two people getting together
to try to solve a problem,potentially specifically like on
the cs side, or something likethat.
But you know, like they'reactually trying to co-create
like a solution, you know, um,and approaching it that way and
(10:00):
and it's funny, because then youcan definitely see when that
doesn't work, right, right, like, because then there's no
co-creation of value, like youknow.
Then you're just like, okay,we're just monotonously going to
go through this and maybeyou'll get value out of it or
not client you know.
But then it's not shocking thatpeople are like, oh well, you
(10:20):
know, cs is, you know, customerexperience scores are really low
right now.
It's like, well, probablybecause people are approaching
it from a co-creation of valueperspective, of being like how
do we make this better for bothof us?
Because and I'm sure you knowthis I mean like with support
agent work, I mean we getthousands of agents doing all
kinds of different things and toinspire them, it is about this
(10:42):
concept of co-creation valuebetween us and the end user
that's on the phone or on thechat or you know, whatever it is
that we're doing with them andand that inspires the agent to
do better work and hopefullyinspires the customer to be
excited about what they're youknow, you know working on, you
know, and.
But that kind of inspiration ismuch better for folks who are
(11:04):
in the CX space, versus it beingjust like.
Okay, I'm trying to figure outhow to do this script the most
efficiently to make it where Ican get you off the phone in a
certain amount of seconds.
Sarah Caminiti (11:16):
You know, like it is, it's transactional, is
meaningless.
You are, in doing it that way,you are telling the customer
that you don't value theirsuccess enough to take the time
and that all goes back toleadership of.
Are you building a foundationthat is rooted in value and
(11:38):
rooted in space and pause andcontemplation, and are you
allowing them the space to feelsafe enough to take time and
care and see what happens whenyou take that information and
you collaborate with anotherdepartment and things start to
(11:59):
change for the better there,because those are all seeds that
need to be planted and wateredand watered, and watered and
weeded and all of these things.
You have to tend to this garden, um, forever, and uh, when you
do, holy cow, that's magic.
Craig Crisler (12:16):
It is Well, and it's like what popped into my
head was, you know I wasthinking about what?
Like one of my big things andthis is the same for all
companies that I've worked in isthat, um, I work for the people
who work with me, right?
So, even as CEO, like I workfor them, like I don't have a
job unless they do theirs.
Sarah Caminiti (12:37):
It's true.
Craig Crisler (12:38):
And so you know, you know my job is dependent
upon, you know, their successand the ability for me to be
able to either be the grease andnot the glue, or, you know,
inspire, or you know, whateverthe case may be.
And, um, and it's interestingbecause, if you know his kind of
historically, when you look atthe way so much people kind of
(13:00):
think about leaders, it's likethis kind of mandate and do this
other stuff, and honestly, Ilove being the stupidest person
in the room, you know, becausethere's people who are way
smarter than me on my team, likeway smarter than me.
I didn't even, I didn't even dooutsourcing before support.
I have no background inoutsourcing, none, yeah.
And so everything I learned Ilearned from hiring incredible
(13:22):
people that know a lot moreabout this industry than I do
and and looking at and seeingthe ways other people are doing
it and learning from them andlearning from clients about ways
in which we can do it better,and being that sponge to to
absorb what's happening andfigure it out.
Um, I think it gives me a uniqueperspective on the space, but I
think, more importantly, likeit is that that perspective to
(13:44):
your point of being a leader, oflike if you're trying to
facilitate people's growth andtrying to make sure you're kind
of creating value, co-creatingvalue, consistently over and
over and over again.
It is about not necessarilybeing that you know person who's
like I'm the smartest, I'mgoing to tell you what to do,
and all this other stuff.
It's more about well, youprobably have some smart ideas
that I'm not aware of, so whydon't you tell me those first?
Because I don't know yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (14:07):
It makes a huge difference in the types of
conversation you get to have.
It's really special when itactually works and people do
understand why you're asking thetypes of questions that you're
asking, and uh, and, and youhave to prove yourself and your
value to them over and over andover again.
(14:29):
Um, but I got to ask cause?
Outsourcing is a beast,outsourcing is uh, outsourcing
is not for the faint of heart.
Um, what brought you in yourjourney to this?
Craig Crisler (14:45):
Well, yeah, so it's a funny story.
Well, it's not funny.
I mean, I guess it's just likemost of my career has been one
of like stumbling into things,like where it's like I meet
people that have a great ideaand then we start something.
But what happened was is I wasworking with an AI company in
Austin, texas, and I always jokewhen people say AI hasn't been
(15:06):
around a long time.
What happened was is I wasworking with an AI company in
Austin, texas, and you know Ialways joke when people say yeah
, it hasn't been around a longtime.
This was nine years ago.
Ai has been around a reallylong time.
You just didn't realize it wasthere.
That's how good it was.
But I was working with an AIcompany.
I'd helped them raise a roundof funding and I was
transitioning away from themafter helping them raise this
round.
And so I was kind of away fromthem after helping them raise
this round and so I was kind ofhad just recently transitioned
(15:28):
out and uh, Connor and Cody, whoare the other founders
SupportNinja of , they had juststarted working on SupportNinja
they said, hey, can you comeover here and help us try to
figure out this, thisoutsourcing thing.
And I was like I have nobackground in outsourcing.
I've used outsourcers, I'veused BPOs, like I've done that,
but I never.
You know, this kind of businessnever run.
And and they're like well,that's probably what we want,
(15:51):
just come over and let's talk.
And and then from there thatstarted a journey of me, you
know, kind of visiting all kindsof outsourcing providers,
making friends with, you know,the big players in the space and
visiting their sites.
I will say honestly, like themore I visited the big players
in the space, the more Irealized what I didn't want to
do versus what I did want to do.
(16:11):
To be brutally honest, no, nofault to them.
I understand the business modelof what they're trying to.
It's just not the model we want.
Um, but um, that was the kindof start and then from there we
just kind of kept growing andgrowing and growing and that's
why, like, I came as director ofcustomer services or something
like that.
You know, basically it was justkind of jack of all trades.
(16:32):
I mean there's three of us inan apartment in the early days
and he's Austin, yeah, and thenum, and then from there it grew
to where it is now.
You know five countries and2000,000 plus agents and all
that stuff, but a lot of itbumps and bruises and just
learning a lot along the way.
(16:57):
But the fascinating thing for meis that and this whole process
has been is that I love SupportNinja primarily because it hits
on that thing I was talkingabout before is that I just love
the people part of it, thepeople aspect of this work.
You know how and what ways weinspire people to work and be
excited about work and do workfor clients that aren't really
they're not hired by, but thatwe support them to do great work
(17:18):
for them.
It just it hits all the buttonsof things that I just really
enjoy about business and, assuch, I've been thoroughly
inspired in this work.
Like I just really love workingin this space.
Even as broken as BPO is rightnow, I still enjoy working in
this space because I think, likethere's folks who are doing
(17:40):
great work in this space thatare the change agents that I
think will actually make kind ofthis for lack of a better term
worldwide talent and the way inwhich we work together
collaboratively to find the bestpeople across the world like it
will make us all better.
Yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (17:54):
Yeah, no, I do agree.
I do agree.
Have you found as SupportNinjahas grown?
Because as a BPO you have areally cool opportunity to show
these companies that hire yourservices what good looks like
and what care and time and theimpact of that like what this
(18:18):
actually looks like?
But often that isn't whathappens with a BPO.
It is speed, it is numbers, itis all of the things that we
know about BPOs.
But with your mindset of theco-creation of value, how has
(18:40):
that translated to setting upall of these teams throughout
the world, to to kind of shifttheir focus in that regard?
Craig Crisler (18:50):
Yeah, well, I will say it's.
It's a bit easier for us in thesense of that the folks who
come and work with us, the, youknow, the Gates Foundation is
one of our clients the midjourneys of the world, like,
these folks who come and workwith us are usually coming in
from a place of not being likewe're.
You know, a massive publiclytraded company and we just want
(19:10):
you to be able to.
You know, deal with telco.
You know a massive publiclytraded company and we just want
you to be able to.
You know, deal with telco.
You know nonsense, you knowthat we get, or whatever.
Um, so you know our.
I think we're benefited to thefact that a lot of our clients
that that come to us and theythey want to look at what we're
doing compared to, like, maybe,a traditional BPO Um, they're a
(19:31):
little bit more ready to havethose conversations than maybe
some of, like you know, majorenterprise clients were,
although I will say, like, Ithink there's a shift that's
occurring in the space inrelationship to this and
thankfully, I think a lot ofit's being spurred on by AI, but
I do think there's always thiskind of push pull between, you
(19:52):
know, in that bpo space of likecost effectiveness and value
right and and I think to yourpoint, the, the, you know
average handle times and firstresponse.
You know, and like all this,all these kind of measures you
put in place, you know, as a bpo, is whether or not you're doing
good.
Um, like getting and talking toclients about, okay, what are
(20:14):
you actually trying toaccomplish?
Like, what is your CX Like,what is your brand voice?
What are these?
You know we have these kinds ofconversations with our clients
and say, like, when they come inand be like, what do you want
to actually accomplish?
Um, and and and.
A lot of times it's interestingthey don't know or it's
inconsistent.
You know I always I had thisfunny like I was talking to
(20:35):
somebody about this the otherday where I think CX is kind of
like the middle child in afamily of good product and
engineers is the is the firstborn, CX is the middle child and
CS is the last, right, and soCX is kind of like the forgotten
kid, like you know, maybepeople don't, everyone loves him
(20:57):
, he's great, you know like, butyou know not really thought
about.
We don't worry about the CX sideof it, we just want to know
that CS and products okay, andmeanwhile CX is floating around,
being, you know, not gettingpaid attention to, not getting
loved in the same way as theother two of the youngest and
the oldest are.
And it's because I think, youknow, spurring our clients to
(21:18):
have those conversations to yourpoint is definitely like a big
part of what we try to do, youknow, and try to get folks to
really think about it, becauseyou know we have clients who
come to us that they justthey'll say they want to do this
for efficiency, and then we'llsay, well, is that the best for
your customer?
Like, do you think that that'sthe best value that you're
(21:38):
creating for your customer?
There are definitely certainthings where efficiency is the
most important thing for them,Like speed at which you do
something is good and that's apart of their brand.
That's great, but it definitelyis, sometimes, I will say,
pulling teeth, because, you know, again, cx is kind of a
forgotten child, like it doesn'tknow the process of all of this
, where it should be like anintegrated part of everything
(22:01):
that happens in the organization.
Sarah Caminiti (22:04):
I think that that is the perfect way to
describe CX, though, because Ithink we are a very difficult
thing for people to wrap theirhead around, because the nuances
and the complexity that goesinto actually caring for the
customer experience in a waythat impacts many different
(22:27):
places of the business makes themiddleness of CX really
important, because it is abridge and it is the source of
so much information.
(22:48):
But that's overwhelming.
That is incredibly overwhelmingif that is not your space and
to think about I mean, this isme doing a hypothetical of
people outside of the CX space.
You started a business, you'relaser focused on nailing down
(23:09):
the UX and you've got all theseengineers who are like 90%
engineers in your company andyou're just building and
building and building andinnovating, and the mindset can
very easily skew to well, ourproduct is so incredible, it'll
speak for itself.
And then when you start askingquestions about well, what
(23:29):
happens here and what happenshere and what are you going to
do when this happens and how isthis flow going to build within
your pipeline and how are yougoing to shift when your plan
for the year doesn't work,because your customer, your
customers, talking about allthis stuff and often those
(23:53):
conversations end and they justkind of continue on their
journey.
So I think that's a perfectanalogy and I got to know, like,
what do you hope people thinkabout reflect on before they
enter into these conversationswith a BPO?
Craig Crisler (24:15):
You know, I think I, I, I hope that.
Well, specifically, they'recoming to us for CX, like if, if
they're looking at or CS, mostof the time they're coming to us
pants on fire, you know, likewe just need help, um, but you
know, one of the big things thatI really hope that they they
(24:35):
think about and kind of takesome time to understand is in,
in, in.
They've already.
Actually this is the hard partThey've already done the work.
Like if you've built a productor you've built a SAS, whatever
it is that you're doing, likeyou have this thing that is
driving value to a consumer,right, Whatever that consumer is
business or end user and soyou've built something that
(24:58):
actually has value.
Okay, so wait, how do you wantthat value to be articulated in
the way in which you interactwith them after they have the
product?
Like, how do you want thatvalue to continue to be created
after they have the product?
And so think about that beforeyou get into these conversations
with your strategic partner atBPO, because you know, if you're
a traditional BPO, like they'll, they'll be like this stuff has
(25:20):
to be all nailed down.
They'll just tell you like,look, you have to have all your
scripts.
You have to tell me exactlywhat it is you want me to tell
you.
All of these things you have tosay to be able to do this job
right.
But for us we're like, we wantto make sure we're co-creating
value with you.
So if we're not doing that like, tell us what good looks like,
(25:40):
tell us what you know, anexcellent experience for your
end user feels like have thatthought, even if it's rough,
before you come and talk to usbecause we can hone it in and
make it great.
Um, but if you cause you'vealready done the work.
You know what the what, thevalue of the product is.
But how do you want that valueto continue to be driven into
(26:01):
that product in the next phaseof that product after they have
it?
You know, and if you have thatstuff, I think, nailed down I
think most you know and you seethose businesses that have that
nailed down you know like it'san experience after the
product's delivered that you'relike, oh, okay, well, this is
what this feels like.
This is what good CX peoplewill say, it's good CX.
It's like, oh, yeah, this iswhat it feels like and it's
(26:23):
because they're saying, okay,we're constantly driving this
value chain with you, you knowof like being like it's not just
when the product is delivered,it's everything that occurs in
that value chain.
Sarah Caminiti (26:34):
Yep, yeah, no, I think that that would be.
That's a good reflection pointto uh, to to set yourself up,
even if you're, even if you'rejust kind of starting to
strategize of what's next for us, before you find the next
solution, understand what valuemeans to your product and how to
keep it going.
(26:55):
After they hit subscribe orafter they download or whatever
it is that your service is.
For.
Having founded and worked in somany different companies over
the years, how has that all setyou up for?
For Support Ninja and and forstaying here and and and just
(27:17):
growing this space?
Craig Crisler (27:19):
Yeah, well, I think it one is I kind of have a
unique person, well, how do Iput this?
So I've been in.
Most of the companies I'veworked in have been very
different.
There's only kind of been onevertical I had a couple of ed
tech companies, um, you know,but for the most part it's been
very varied.
(27:40):
What I've done, um, and I, and Ithink, though, what, what has
been helped me, set up meSupport Ninja for this was kind
of the selfish part of me beingSupportNinja in with Connor
and Cody was that I get all thestuff I love about business,
which is that watching companiesgrow and watching people grow,
watching people develop productsand like, put it on the market
(28:00):
and see if the company, see, ifit see if the world likes it.
You know, and all that stuff,all of that excitement I get to
be a part of, in, you know, 240plus companies and like and and
like, and that is amazing tolike, see that stuff, you know,
to be able to have thoseconversations and with these,
you know, sometimes, founders,sometimes they're big and
they're rolling something newout or and so it, having had
(28:24):
that varied experience, allowsme to kind of say, okay, well,
if anything, I understand wherethey're at, but then, more
importantly, I understand thatit's going to be different for
everybody and so how can I, howcan we build something that's
flexible enough and adaptableenough and drive enough value to
them that they feel like we'rea good partner, um, in this
(28:44):
value creation um, and so Ithink that part has set me up
well for that.
It says to in terms of workingwith Support Ninja, but also, I
think too, going back to what Iwas talking about before in
relationship to the fact of,like I don't mind being the baby
in the room, like not reallyunderstanding everything and I'm
just absorbing, like becauseI'm almost, you know, like one
(29:09):
of the startups we were doingmilitary tech.
I'm not a military guy, I neverwent into the military, like
you know, but we did militarytech and we sold it to Raytheon
and so, like, no background inthat, but figured it out, you
know, and like and kind ofabsorb whatever's there in a way
(29:32):
and understand how and whatways can we build something that
will help in this process.
You know, I think positions mewell.
It's almost like this kind ofon one side, it's like I have
the ability to have experiencein a lot of different verticals
and then the other side of it'sbeing like well, I'm also OK
being pretty dumb and learningon the fly quickly to understand
(29:54):
what it is that we can helpwith.
Sarah Caminiti (29:56):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
That is your approach to all ofthese different adventures that
you've gone on.
I feel like you are a verykindred spirit in that regard,
because I also find myselfentering into companies that I
know nothing about, and I almostprefer it because I'm able to
(30:20):
and I usually do stay as removedfrom totally understanding the
product as I can while stillbuilding and leading, because
I'm able to see things from acustomer perspective that you
can't.
When you understand all thenuances and when you understand
(30:42):
what it should be doing and canmake those quick adjustments and
assumptions of where you needto click or something like that,
and you can connect on such adeeper level with a customer
when you're able to feel theconfusion because you then go
through the process yourself andyou're like, oh my gosh, you're
right, this doesn't make anysense.
(31:02):
This is valid.
I think that we need to lookinto this and to have you going
through all these companies andallow yourself to be curious and
allow yourself to just besomebody that is new to the
space.
That's a vulnerable thing.
To do over and over again isperfect for a BPO where you're
(31:28):
interacting with very variedtypes of companies that you
don't necessarily need tounderstand the nuances, for in
order to provide them a qualitysupport experience.
Craig Crisler (31:43):
Right, well, and it's in this space too.
It's interesting.
I think it's intriguing becausewe've been, you know, like
we've been in rfps and stufflike that, where they really
want us to kind of stick to therules and and and just just
respond the way that they theywant us to respond.
But, like, I'm always like,well, do we have to?
(32:04):
Like is, is this, like we'retrying to solve a problem like
and, and the problem haveprobably has a solution that may
be simpler than we're thinking.
It is like um, and and, justbecause it's always been done
that way, doesn't really need tobe done that way, like is there
a different way?
And so it's funny how manytimes with some of these rfps,
like where we'll respond andthey'll be like we love you, we
(32:26):
just can't figure you out, andI'm like it's not that
complicated.
Like, like you know, we're,we're we're driving towards a
solution that will drive valueto you, like, not necessarily
the solution that you'vepreconceived as the best
solution for this problem, um,based on, you know, procurement
rules or whatever the case maybe.
(32:46):
We're trying to get to asolution that's going to drive
value to you, um, but that goesback to like how old this
industry is.
It's just, you know, it actslike an old industry at times
and and I'm I'm much more oflike a startup guy where it's
like, hey, let's try somethingnew, like what's the worst that
could happen?
Like you know, it's better totry and fail and then learn and
(33:07):
then do consistently somethingpoorly.
You know, I that's.
You know what's the definitionof insanity Doing the same thing
over and over again, expectinga different result.
So if it's not working now theway that you've built it, why
don't we try something different?
You know.
Sarah Caminiti (33:24):
Yeah, that's an important mindset to share with
companies that do findthemselves locked into the safe
route.
I think that's something withleadership that I have since I
started building and leadingteams.
I wanted to do what I neverreally saw and I wanted to
(33:49):
understand why I never reallysaw these inclusive, supportive,
encouraging environments.
Last, because, it's not to say,the people that I've worked
with in the past didn't try, butit's so much easier when things
are hard to go back to what youknew worked for other people
(34:09):
that you saw, or at least likethey survived it at the end of
the day, like you've got theframework.
You saw this like the last sixcompanies that the boss turns
into you know a big brother typeperson and starts like
nitpicking everything you do andbeing very like gatekeepy and
defensive, and it's very easy toget that instant head shift
(34:33):
into like survival powerhoarding.
And I think that thattranslates exactly into
businesses as well If you don'thave somebody there constantly
saying no, no, we're not doingthis, no, you're not going back
to that old way.
We already said that old waywas bullshit.
Craig Crisler (34:55):
And.
Sarah Caminiti (34:57):
I know things suck right now.
I know things suck, but let'sacknowledge that it sucks.
Let's acknowledge to our teamthat we understand that it sucks
and we trust them and weappreciate them and we value
them enough to bring them intothe shit with us and figure out
(35:18):
how we're going to make itbetter.
And I would love to knowbuilding a company with values
that are.
They seem like your businessvalues connect very well to your
personal core values and youfound this really nice alignment
.
But that must be very it mustbe very difficult at times to
(35:42):
keep that path visible and stayon it, because it takes it takes
work yeah, it takes disciplineand, like I don't even know if
discipline's the right word, Iactually think it comes back to
transparency, like you know it.
Craig Crisler (36:02):
You know it comes back to that concept of saying,
like, even when you know, as aleader, let's say, you have to
make a tough choice and there'ssomething, some change that
needs to occur, and and and you,and ultimately, because you're
in the seat you're in, you haveto make a decision and
ultimately it's your name thathas the sign, or whatever it is.
And I think, like having thatlevel, you know if you abide by
(36:25):
your values and really trulybelieve in it, like to be
transparent with everybody andtell them like this is why I
made this decision, or this iswhy this decision was made at
the group, or you know, this iswhy I agreed with the decision I
was made.
You know and and and owning it,and you know warts and all you
know.
Um, I remember one time thiswas in the early SupportNinja
of you know like I made amistake, you know like it was a
(36:48):
mistake.
It was a straight up mistake.
And and I remember I went intoa town hall and I told everybody
I made a mistake.
And, and I remember, um, therewas a, uh, one of the agents in
the Philippines.
I saw them and they're like,are you okay?
And I'm like, yeah, I think youknow it was a true caring,
because they were like you know,they were so not used to to
(37:11):
like somebody saying out loudthat an owning, you know error,
you know and and and being ableto say like this is my problem
and this is the mistake I madeand I own it, you know, and um,
but you know I said, yeah, I'mfine, it's great.
Like this is what you knowhonestly, like if you, if you
have the same thing, you shouldown it too, it's okay.
(37:31):
Like you know, we're all human.
You know, like, there's nothingyou know I I used to say we, I
do this thing called a not soFriday update, where I do like a
video thing for the team everyFriday and, um, it's part of me
being more transparent, justlike, kind of what happened this
week shout outs, bringing inguest stars.
You know the whole line.
And it's funny because you knowI used to say all the time like
(38:00):
you know, I can guarantee allof you one thing that I will at
some point will screw up that Ican guarantee.
The rest of it I can't reallyguarantee, but I can guarantee
at some point I will actuallyscrew this thing up and um, and
I think that that ownership oftransparency allows the company
to flourish, because then atthat point hopefully people
follow that model of saying like, oh yeah, it's okay, craig made
a mistake, I can say it too.
(38:21):
It's like I'll make a mistake,you know, but transparency to me
it like cuts through everything.
It's one of those things,honestly, like that's one of the
biggest lessons I think Ilearned in my recovery.
You know, was that you know?
In getting know, was that youknow?
And getting sober, was that, um, I could be and should be as
(38:43):
transparent and real to me as Ipossibly can, because it's much
harder to keep a lie or to hide,you know.
It's so much more difficultthan it's just as being me, you
know, and being human and wartsand all um and like.
That part, I think, was like ahuge turning point for me in my
recovery and especially as me asa leader in my career was, was
(39:05):
being able to see like, oh, Ican just be Craig, you know, and
people will still like me, youknow, as people still respect me
and you know, even if I make amistake, they'll still respect
me.
And, um, you, you know, and Idon't need to try to pretend to
be somebody.
I'm not, you know, and it'sfunny.
(39:26):
I think it drives my boardcrazy, though, because I'll be
talking to somebody else.
Well, you have to be overlytransparent, and I was like lay
it out, and they'll be like youdid that out loud, why, why not?
I mean, what's the worst thatcould happen?
Someone's going to say it tosomebody else.
Like, you know, it just doesn'tthey.
(39:47):
They love me, but at timesthey're like come on, craig,
really no well it's.
Sarah Caminiti (39:52):
It's an adjustment, like in you showing
your team and and all of thepeople that SupportNinja with
like no, I'm just going to sayI'm not going to like preface it
, I'm not going to like changemy tone.
This is just I'm having aconversation with you and I'm
telling you I did not dosomething that I wanted to do.
(40:15):
Like the outcome was not what Ithought it was going to be.
I thought it was going to bedifferent.
I made a mistake, I screwed up,you know, and we're still a
company, we're still alive,we're still afloat.
I'm still here, I didn't getfired.
And that means that you now cansay this didn't go well, I
messed this up.
And now you can ask, hey, whydid this not go well?
(40:42):
Where in this process didthings go awry?
I scare many of the people thatI work with because I always ask
why did you do what you did,the way that you did it?
And that's not in any sort ofnegative way.
I'm not trying to like get youinto a gotcha moment.
I want you to actually walk methrough the whole thought
(41:05):
process so that I can figure outwhat moment things did not go
as planned, because it's my jobto make you confident enough to
go on this journey and have theoutcome work out the way that
you hoped that it would work out, and once people start to
(41:26):
understand oh wait a second whenI do acknowledge this, like I
don't, I don't get in troubleLike we actually like put a fix
in place for this.
It's so cool because you'reable to fix things in the moment
with the context and and buildoff of it, and so you're
providing such a gift by byproving it.
Craig Crisler (41:45):
I love that question.
I must feel it like well, causeit definitely cuts to.
It cuts through the noise,right Like there's all kinds of
noise, whether it be in our heador you know.
It's just like ridiculous.
And and it cuts through thenoise and it says like, show me
what you did.
It reminded me of we had anagent.
It was.
They were working with one ofour clients and and he was just
(42:06):
doing like two times whateveryone else was doing, at a
quality that was phenomenal,like, and we were like we
actually thought he was like atfirst, we were like is he
cheating, like his you know?
Like like what's, what's goingon?
Because it's just he was farand above anybody else.
And so we sit down and we'relike, hey, show us what you're
doing.
And it turns out he like builta program to help his work.
(42:29):
Oh my god and for and like, andand.
So he did it and he built thisprogram, you know, and that
program, and it ended up beingused by the rest of the team,
like he actually ended uprolling it out to the rest of
the team.
We rolled it out to the client,like all this other stuff,
because it made it moreefficient and better, right and
and um.
But you know, we, unless we hadasked the why, just be like, and
(42:50):
of course you know the noisejumped us to the conclusion of
being like this is a hack andlike you know, like is he?
You know have like a keystrokehelper or something like that,
but like, but he had figured outa way to work around, to make
to create value and um and like,even in the mistakes or the
wins, like him, like in in thoseanalysis of like, asking the
(43:10):
why, like you talked about, likeyou get so much, like you can
you that transparency of peelingback all the onion layers and
trying to get down to the coreof it.
You're like, oh, okay, so thisis the problem, you know, and um
, and it's not you that's theproblem, it's this thing.
Like you know, maybe a step,you know, maybe you know a tool
or whatever it is.
(43:31):
You know it's very, you know, Iwould love to say it's easier
to point fingers, but like it'sactually a lot harder to prove
that and like in, in fact Ithink it's I don't know it's
detrimental to the team to tellall you're doing is point
fingers Like cause, then itdoesn't help.
Sarah Caminiti (43:47):
Like well, it creates a hostile environment.
For what?
Craig Crisler (43:51):
For what?
Yeah, like it doesn't, there'sno value in it.
Like there's, you know it's,there's, you know it's.
Uh, you know.
Point to it.
I mean, I was in a meeting onceand we were talking about
something.
I said, well, point the fingerat me, I don't care.
Like yeah, you know.
Like it's fine.
Like, if you guys want to pointthe finger at somebody, point
at me, that's fine.
But let's talk about theproblem.
Sarah Caminiti (44:09):
Like right, like get the pointing done, like get
that cup full for you and thennow, now let's just move on,
because there's, there's muchmore to this that is productive
and it's not that.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, no,it's.
I'm glad to hear that there isa, there's a company that that
(44:32):
promotes error at scale and as awin, like and when I say error
as a win, I just meanacknowledging error, because we
are all trying to do our best,and the second that you start
thinking, the second you startremoving the people from the
(44:53):
events or just any of it, thesecond you remove the people,
you'll lose that piece that is,we are all just people trying to
do our best.
Obviously, this person is notgoing to create some bizarro
takedown plan with this onelittle error that they did.
(45:14):
There's a reason behind it.
Let's figure out what thereason is.
Craig Crisler (45:19):
Yeah, behaviors don't happen in a vacuum.
It's built on something andit's based on something.
But, yeah, and I will say, Imean it is one of those things.
It's definitely an uphillbattle, like at times where
you're trying to get people toget comfortable with that, and
it's definitely an uphill battle, like at times you know where
you're trying to get people toget comfortable with that, and
(45:40):
it's not always easy, you know,and, um, and and it's also hard.
I think people, um, humility,you know.
You know one of our values isalways be humble, and and and
it's humility is just a toughone, right, like it's just a
really tough, you know kind ofposition to put yourself in to
be able to say that you know I'm, I'm fallible, you're fallible,
(46:01):
we're all fallible, like, we'reall going to, you know it's,
you know, and we all don't thinkthat we're the best.
You know, like we just thinkcollectively we're better.
And it's hard to like, kind ofI used to in the early days of
this board engine with managers,would come in from traditional
BPO.
It's like there'd be like teamleaders or site directors or you
know whatever.
(46:25):
I would say to people the firstcouple of weeks I'm going to
untrain you Everything that youlearned in terms of hierarchical
management process and yellingat agents and all that stuff.
I said I'm going to, I'm goingto, I'm going to rehab you.
You're going to be better whenwe're done.
Um, because you, I'm going to,I'm going to, I'm going to rehab
you, you're going to be betterwhen we're done Because you'll
cause I, I don't want you to bethat way anymore.
You know I want you to be okaywith coaching, I want you to be
(46:45):
okay with inspiring and, likeyou know, being a servant leader
and you know all that stuff andum, but still, yeah, you know
it's to your point.
Earlier people, you know, theyknow they'll default back when
the pressure's on.
Why'd you do that?
You don't need to do that, man.
It's okay Like let's, let's trythis, but let's go back to the
way we believe would be betterfor all of us.
Sarah Caminiti (47:05):
Yep, little reset, it's a little reset.
Uh, I feel like I could talk toyou, craig, for literally
70,000 hours, and I am so tickedoff that the time is what it is
.
But so that I make sure I don'tgo over too far, as planned, I
end every episode by asking ourguests what era do you find
(47:30):
yourself in, or what era are youmoving into?
And so, craig, I would love toknow what's your era.
Craig Crisler (47:38):
You know, I was thinking about this in terms of
music, you know in terms of kindof music, and I was thinking
about that.
I I'm kind of in the era, andyou know, um, yeah, I was
thinking about the Beatles.
Actually I was thinking aboutthe Beatles and um, and there
was that era, like right beforethey like kind of broke up you
know, like where you know and um, but it was that the like right
(47:59):
before they like kind of brokeup, you know like where you know
, and um, but it was that thelast couple of albums, like let
it be, and like there's like thelast little kind of snippets of
time there where they and Ikind of feel like I'm in that
era of being like I've foundsomething that I thoroughly
enjoy and that you know, and Ihit, and I've hit this um stride
in my life of being completelyhappy with the work that I'm
(48:24):
doing.
I may not love it all the time,but I'm always happy with what
I'm doing, that Um, and and I'vefound that you know, it's like
I cut the bands, like just at ahome, you know where we're just
like we may not be alwayssuccessful, but we're just, you
know, we've locked in and we'redoing great and stuff like that.
(48:45):
And with SupportN inja and thiscompany specifically, it hits
on all the things I love aboutbusiness, which is people, and
it just really just knocks itout of the park with that,
because I get to interact andwork with so many different
clients and so many differentpeople and stuff like that.
So it's like we're making thislike great music all the time.
You know, it's just thisconstant process of making great
(49:07):
music and some sometimes it'sthrowaway songs, sometimes it's
stuff that will make it on therecord, but we're we're humming
you, you know, and so it's kindof where I feel like I'm at era
wise, where it's like, you know,I feel like things are, are the
, the bands together and it'sworking well, you know, and I'm
happy with that, and personallyit's the same way, like the
(49:27):
bands together and, uh, even mydaughter's, like we're doing
great, you know, they like mestill, even though they're both
in college and they want to bearound me, which is a shock, um,
but that's, I think that'swhere I'm at.
I'm kind of in that, like youknow, not quite to the breakup
stage where I'm sick ofeverybody in the world, like,
but I, like I still love playingmusic and it's like we're all
together, the band's going, youknow, like that's where I think
(49:50):
man, that sounds like that isthe goal.
Sarah Caminiti (49:53):
That is it's you found alignment, found
alignment of the things that youwere supposed to do, and do
them the way that you know theyshould be done to meet you, your
needs and who you are, but alsoimpact others around you
positively, and you should bereally proud of yourself,
because that is work to get tothis space.
(50:17):
Because that is work to get tothis space.
It was work for the Beatles tofigure out what worked and what
didn't in order to find that hum, and some incredible things
came out of it, because I thinkthat there's a piece to it.
You're able to be at peace fora moment, you're not grinding as
much because you have thatalignment.
(50:38):
Um, so that's really amazing.
I'm very happy for you, craig.
You deserve that.
Craig Crisler (50:44):
Oh, thank you I.
You know, it's funny when I am,I think I am proud of myself.
But it's always that thing ofwhere, like, you know how it
goes, you know you look in themirror and you go okay, are you?
Are you going to be okay today?
So that part, I'm always there.
But no, I really appreciate it.
Thank you, sir, this has beengreat I really have enjoyed it.
Sarah Caminiti (51:05):
Craig, this has been wonderful.
I am pissed that it is the endand we've gone over two minutes.
I really could keep talking toyou for so long.
And that wraps up today'sspecial episode of Epochal
Growth.
I couldn't have asked for abetter way to celebrate than by
sharing Craig Crisler's thoughtson leadership and co-creating
value in the workplace.
(51:25):
We're so close to the end ofseason one, and this episode has
definitely set the tone for aninspiring finale.
Thank you all for yourcontinued support and for making
this journey so meaningful.
Be sure to join us for thefinal episode and until then,
stay curious and keep growing.
I'm Sarah Caminiti.
(51:46):
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a great day.
Welcome to a very special episode of Epical
Growth.
I'm your host, sarah C, and Iam so happy that you're here.
Today's conversation is notonly the second to last episode
of season one of Epical Growth,but it's being released on my
birthday, so it feels like theperfect time to reflect on
(00:28):
growth and leadership and thepower of transparency.
This has been such a remarkableyear.
I've been spending a lot oftime reflecting on this
incredible year and this journeythat I've been on with all of
you, and I'm just so proud ofthis moment and I'm really
excited to see where 37 takes me.
Joining me today is CraigChrysler, ceo and co-founder of
(00:52):
Support Ninja.
Craig shares his insights oncreating value in business,
building authentic relationshipsand leading with humility.
Whether you're a seasonedleader or you're just starting
out, there's something here foreveryone.
All right, let's dive in.
Craig Crisler (01:09):
Awesome.
Well, um, brief introduction onme, so like, um, so I'm Craig
Crisler, CEO of Support Ninja.
I'm one of the founders, one ofthe three founders, of Support
Ninja.
Um, I'm, you know, I would sayI'm a serial kind of startup guy
, like that's been my career mywhole life.
Uh, it's been doing startups um12 companies, four exits.
(01:29):
Um, you know, really seen thethe, the worst and the best of
it in terms of all of that stuff.
So I learned a lot along theway.
Um, interesting snippet.
I always tell people I don'tmind sharing it.
I'm in recovery.
Sarah Caminiti (01:45):
I've been in recovery for a long time.
Craig Crisler (01:46):
Congratulations, yeah, thanks, and so that's a
huge part of who I am now andwho I was too.
It actually is part of who Iwas, it's part of my story, and
so it's an interesting.
It informs a lot of what I do,but my focus has always been in.
What I love about business ispeople.
I just fundamentally enjoyworking with people and the
(02:09):
interaction and the way in whichyou create value for people and
work with people.
I just thoroughly enjoy that.
That's the part that excites methe most the product, the
service, all of those companiesthat I've been with and helped
work on so many different typesbut the one consistent thing was
people.
That was always consistent inevery single business I was in.
(02:29):
So I just I love working withand inspiring and and um,
hopefully, working for people tomake them better, um and so
that that just inspires me everysingle day.
Sarah Caminiti (02:41):
Gosh, what a great career trajectory to
acknowledge the thing that youlove the most and then build
around it.
Craig Crisler (02:48):
Yeah, yeah, well it's.
It's funny it cuts back to thispoint.
So there's a point in my life,like, where I really wanted I
wasn't sure because I was amusician so, like the like my
first company I ever did, Istarted a record company.
I was 15 and I'm in the Bayarea, california, and and it was
great, it was fantastic, it wasfun, but it was just weird
(03:10):
timing.
But what was interesting aboutit?
Like I had gotten to this pointin my career where, like I
didn't feel like it was, I was,I wanted to be a rock star, but
I wasn't.
Like I knew being a rock staris like being Michael Jordan,
it's like one in a million.
It's really hard to do, and so,um and so, uh, there was a point
in my career and I was talkingto a mentor and this was in a
(03:32):
company, um that I have back inHawaii, and I was kind of a
mentor and I really had thiskind of like, is business art?
You know?
It was like this thing that Ifelt and I was like, is business
really art?
Like, is it, you know, am Icreating something?
Um and um, because I, I still Ithink I had pipe dreams of
being a musician.
Still, even then, you know, um,and my mentor at the time he was
(03:55):
like how do you know theinteractions that you do with
people, the way in which youlook at the way businesses run
and create value for people, howdo you not see that as art?
It's hard to not realize thatthat is truly art.
And um, and so from that, likethat was my like, oh, okay, so
it is art.
Like what I do in business isart and what I do with people is
(04:15):
it's art.
You know, it's just a different.
It's not what you traditionallythink of as art, you know.
Sarah Caminiti (04:28):
Wow, I really love that concept it is.
There's so much purpose behindit, because you have to be
intentional when you create andyou have to be thoughtful when
you create, and each interactionis an opportunity to create
something that lasts with people, just like art sticks with you
and lasts with you and, uh,that's really beautiful.
What a great thing for yourmentor to to connect those dots
(04:52):
with you.
Craig Crisler (04:53):
Well, and it's that thing of where you know if,
if you're a leader, or you know, or if you're, even if you're
just working in a company, likepeople bless you with their time
, right, Like, and they give youthis, you know, portion of
their life, right, and if and ifyou're not doing the best that
you can to make that portion oftheir life meaningful in some
(05:15):
way, then you're probably notdoing the best job that you
could be doing to make it work.
And that's where that intention, you know, like that kind of
push towards, like how do youmake it?
And it cuts back to I was justtalking to a friend about this.
We were talking about how, likeyou know, you'd overdate people
who are rude to waitresses orwaiters.
You know, like it's like acommon thing, right?
We just don't do that,Especially for folks who work in
(05:37):
CX, like you and I do, Like wedefinitely know that we're just
like no Hard pass.
Yeah, exactly, and we weretalking about this.
And it comes to thatintentionality thing, I think,
where it comes down to thatpoint of where you say, okay,
well, that person who's working,whatever they're doing, you're
(05:58):
taking their time too, right,Even the people that you're
trying to create value for as acustomer, and so you want it to
be purposeful and you want it itto be full of intention and you
want it to actually createvalue.
And if it doesn't do that, thenyou know, or or you demean it
in some way, then you'reactually demeaning the value
creation that you both could bedoing together.
So if you're rude to a waiter,you may not get the best food,
(06:22):
and so wouldn't you rather worktogether to create a value for
each other?
You know, and like build, youknow, a better meal for yourself
?
Sarah Caminiti (06:30):
Yeah, I got the chills there.
That was really.
That was really good.
Yeah, it's so true.
Though it's uh and and workingin CX, we do have a very
different headspace than I thinkmost people do.
Um, I say to when I'm talkingabout anyone coming on to this
podcast.
I say that you're gifting mewith your time because that is
(06:52):
what you're doing and I lovethat you expressed that in such
a similar vein.
And for something as easy asgoing to a restaurant, and for
something as easy as going to arestaurant, everybody is a
customer.
Everybody is a customer in someway, shape or form, and you do
(07:13):
have an opportunity to help thembe as successful as they
possibly can be without thattaking away from you and your
experience and your journey.
It is an opportunity tocollaborate and just learn Uber
(07:40):
driver or my waitress, orsomeone who's a coffee barista
at a coffee shop, because I makeit a purposeful moment to
engage and connect.
And gosh I, even now that Ithink about it.
I just got a flash.
(08:00):
I went to a movie by myself andthere was one other woman in the
movie uh movie theater and sheended up coming over and sitting
with me.
We ended up talking for twohours, the movie started over
again because we were still inthe movie theater.
Um and uh, and I ended uphelping her with a mentorship
program for the ymca that sheworks at and like, and and the
(08:22):
ymc was in washington dc and itwas just like she happened to be
here for a conference, shehappened to have a minute and
she happened to go to thisrandom movie in the middle of
the day.
And it's you rob yourself of somuch opportunity to explore and
to grow and just take a chanceby not approaching things the
(08:48):
way that you described, craig,the way that you do approach
things, and I think that's areally important thing for
people to think about when theygo into the world.
Craig Crisler (08:56):
Right.
Well, and it's that you know onthe, you know thinking about it
from that CX perspective and Ithink that you kind of hit the
nail on the head in terms oflike what we think of as good CX
perspective.
And I think that you kind ofhit the nail on the head in
terms of like what we think ofas good CX is, like really, it's
about the co-creation of value,right Like between a customer
and whoever's you knowperforming the CX right Like
(09:17):
you're actually trying toco-create value with this client
or customer or whatever it is.
And it's that approach that youknow.
That's where you see, I thinkthat's where you see excellence
in CX right, like is the, whatis the people who are doing it
that way and thinking about itin that way and talking about
how you know, is the productsolving the problem?
And if it's not solving theproblem, how do we make it solve
(09:38):
the problem?
And brand and all that otherstuff you know, and the ones
that do it extremely well, arereally about this collaboration
of these like random instancesof two people getting together
to try to solve a problem,potentially specifically like on
the cs side, or something likethat.
But you know, like they'reactually trying to co-create
like a solution, you know, um,and approaching it that way and
(10:00):
and it's funny, because then youcan definitely see when that
doesn't work, right, right, like, because then there's no
co-creation of value, like youknow.
Then you're just like, okay,we're just monotonously going to
go through this and maybeyou'll get value out of it or
not client you know.
But then it's not shocking thatpeople are like, oh well, you
(10:20):
know, cs is, you know, customerexperience scores are really low
right now.
It's like, well, probablybecause people are approaching
it from a co-creation of valueperspective, of being like how
do we make this better for bothof us?
Because and I'm sure you knowthis I mean like with support
agent work, I mean we getthousands of agents doing all
kinds of different things and toinspire them, it is about this
(10:42):
concept of co-creation valuebetween us and the end user
that's on the phone or on thechat or you know, whatever it is
that we're doing with them andand that inspires the agent to
do better work and hopefullyinspires the customer to be
excited about what they're youknow, you know working on, you
know, and.
But that kind of inspiration ismuch better for folks who are
(11:04):
in the CX space, versus it beingjust like.
Okay, I'm trying to figure outhow to do this script the most
efficiently to make it where Ican get you off the phone in a
certain amount of seconds.
Sarah Caminiti (11:16):
You know, like it is, it's transactional, is
meaningless.
You are, in doing it that way,you are telling the customer
that you don't value theirsuccess enough to take the time
and that all goes back toleadership of.
Are you building a foundationthat is rooted in value and
(11:38):
rooted in space and pause andcontemplation, and are you
allowing them the space to feelsafe enough to take time and
care and see what happens whenyou take that information and
you collaborate with anotherdepartment and things start to
(11:59):
change for the better there,because those are all seeds that
need to be planted and wateredand watered, and watered and
weeded and all of these things.
You have to tend to this garden, um, forever, and uh, when you
do, holy cow, that's magic.
Craig Crisler (12:16):
It is Well, and it's like what popped into my
head was, you know I wasthinking about what?
Like one of my big things andthis is the same for all
companies that I've worked in isthat, um, I work for the people
who work with me, right?
So, even as CEO, like I workfor them, like I don't have a
job unless they do theirs.
Sarah Caminiti (12:37):
It's true.
Craig Crisler (12:38):
And so you know, you know my job is dependent
upon, you know, their successand the ability for me to be
able to either be the grease andnot the glue, or, you know,
inspire, or you know, whateverthe case may be.
And, um, and it's interestingbecause, if you know his kind of
historically, when you look atthe way so much people kind of
(13:00):
think about leaders, it's likethis kind of mandate and do this
other stuff, and honestly, Ilove being the stupidest person
in the room, you know, becausethere's people who are way
smarter than me on my team, likeway smarter than me.
I didn't even, I didn't even dooutsourcing before support.
I have no background inoutsourcing, none, yeah.
And so everything I learned Ilearned from hiring incredible
(13:22):
people that know a lot moreabout this industry than I do
and and looking at and seeingthe ways other people are doing
it and learning from them andlearning from clients about ways
in which we can do it better,and being that sponge to to
absorb what's happening andfigure it out.
Um, I think it gives me a uniqueperspective on the space, but I
think, more importantly, likeit is that that perspective to
(13:44):
your point of being a leader, oflike if you're trying to
facilitate people's growth andtrying to make sure you're kind
of creating value, co-creatingvalue, consistently over and
over and over again.
It is about not necessarilybeing that you know person who's
like I'm the smartest, I'mgoing to tell you what to do,
and all this other stuff.
It's more about well, youprobably have some smart ideas
that I'm not aware of, so whydon't you tell me those first?
Because I don't know yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (14:07):
It makes a huge difference in the types of
conversation you get to have.
It's really special when itactually works and people do
understand why you're asking thetypes of questions that you're
asking, and uh, and, and youhave to prove yourself and your
value to them over and over andover again.
(14:29):
Um, but I got to ask cause?
Outsourcing is a beast,outsourcing is uh, outsourcing
is not for the faint of heart.
Um, what brought you in yourjourney to this?
Craig Crisler (14:45):
Well, yeah, so it's a funny story.
Well, it's not funny.
I mean, I guess it's just likemost of my career has been one
of like stumbling into things,like where it's like I meet
people that have a great ideaand then we start something.
But what happened was is I wasworking with an AI company in
Austin, texas, and I always jokewhen people say AI hasn't been
(15:06):
around a long time.
What happened was is I wasworking with an AI company in
Austin, texas, and you know Ialways joke when people say yeah
, it hasn't been around a longtime.
This was nine years ago.
Ai has been around a reallylong time.
You just didn't realize it wasthere.
That's how good it was.
But I was working with an AIcompany.
I'd helped them raise a roundof funding and I was
transitioning away from themafter helping them raise this
round.
And so I was kind of away fromthem after helping them raise
this round and so I was kind ofhad just recently transitioned
(15:28):
out and uh, Connor and Cody, whoare the other founders
SupportNinja of , they had juststarted working on SupportNinja
they said, hey, can you comeover here and help us try to
figure out this, thisoutsourcing thing.
And I was like I have nobackground in outsourcing.
I've used outsourcers, I'veused BPOs, like I've done that,
but I never.
You know, this kind of businessnever run.
And and they're like well,that's probably what we want,
(15:51):
just come over and let's talk.
And and then from there thatstarted a journey of me, you
know, kind of visiting all kindsof outsourcing providers,
making friends with, you know,the big players in the space and
visiting their sites.
I will say honestly, like themore I visited the big players
in the space, the more Irealized what I didn't want to
do versus what I did want to do.
(16:11):
To be brutally honest, no, nofault to them.
I understand the business modelof what they're trying to.
It's just not the model we want.
Um, but um, that was the kindof start and then from there we
just kind of kept growing andgrowing and growing and that's
why, like, I came as director ofcustomer services or something
like that.
You know, basically it was justkind of jack of all trades.
(16:32):
I mean there's three of us inan apartment in the early days
and he's Austin, yeah, and thenum, and then from there it grew
to where it is now.
You know five countries and2000,000 plus agents and all
that stuff, but a lot of itbumps and bruises and just
learning a lot along the way.
(16:57):
But the fascinating thing for meis that and this whole process
has been is that I love SupportNinja primarily because it hits
on that thing I was talkingabout before is that I just love
the people part of it, thepeople aspect of this work.
You know how and what ways weinspire people to work and be
excited about work and do workfor clients that aren't really
they're not hired by, but thatwe support them to do great work
(17:18):
for them.
It just it hits all the buttonsof things that I just really
enjoy about business and, assuch, I've been thoroughly
inspired in this work.
Like I just really love workingin this space.
Even as broken as BPO is rightnow, I still enjoy working in
this space because I think, likethere's folks who are doing
(17:40):
great work in this space thatare the change agents that I
think will actually make kind ofthis for lack of a better term
worldwide talent and the way inwhich we work together
collaboratively to find the bestpeople across the world like it
will make us all better.
Yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (17:54):
Yeah, no, I do agree.
I do agree.
Have you found as SupportNinjahas grown?
Because as a BPO you have areally cool opportunity to show
these companies that hire yourservices what good looks like
and what care and time and theimpact of that like what this
(18:18):
actually looks like?
But often that isn't whathappens with a BPO.
It is speed, it is numbers, itis all of the things that we
know about BPOs.
But with your mindset of theco-creation of value, how has
(18:40):
that translated to setting upall of these teams throughout
the world, to to kind of shifttheir focus in that regard?
Craig Crisler (18:50):
Yeah, well, I will say it's.
It's a bit easier for us in thesense of that the folks who
come and work with us, the, youknow, the Gates Foundation is
one of our clients the midjourneys of the world, like,
these folks who come and workwith us are usually coming in
from a place of not being likewe're.
You know, a massive publiclytraded company and we just want
(19:10):
you to be able to.
You know, deal with telco.
You know a massive publiclytraded company and we just want
you to be able to.
You know, deal with telco.
You know nonsense, you knowthat we get, or whatever.
Um, so you know our.
I think we're benefited to thefact that a lot of our clients
that that come to us and theythey want to look at what we're
doing compared to, like, maybe,a traditional BPO Um, they're a
(19:31):
little bit more ready to havethose conversations than maybe
some of, like you know, majorenterprise clients were,
although I will say, like, Ithink there's a shift that's
occurring in the space inrelationship to this and
thankfully, I think a lot ofit's being spurred on by AI, but
I do think there's always thiskind of push pull between, you
(19:52):
know, in that bpo space of likecost effectiveness and value
right and and I think to yourpoint, the, the, you know
average handle times and firstresponse.
You know, and like all this,all these kind of measures you
put in place, you know, as a bpo, is whether or not you're doing
good.
Um, like getting and talking toclients about, okay, what are
(20:14):
you actually trying toaccomplish?
Like, what is your CX Like,what is your brand voice?
What are these?
You know we have these kinds ofconversations with our clients
and say, like, when they come inand be like, what do you want
to actually accomplish?
Um, and and and.
A lot of times it's interestingthey don't know or it's
inconsistent.
You know I always I had thisfunny like I was talking to
(20:35):
somebody about this the otherday where I think CX is kind of
like the middle child in afamily of good product and
engineers is the is the firstborn, CX is the middle child and
CS is the last, right, and soCX is kind of like the forgotten
kid, like you know, maybepeople don't, everyone loves him
(20:57):
, he's great, you know like, butyou know not really thought
about.
We don't worry about the CX sideof it, we just want to know
that CS and products okay, andmeanwhile CX is floating around,
being, you know, not gettingpaid attention to, not getting
loved in the same way as theother two of the youngest and
the oldest are.
And it's because I think, youknow, spurring our clients to
(21:18):
have those conversations to yourpoint is definitely like a big
part of what we try to do, youknow, and try to get folks to
really think about it, becauseyou know we have clients who
come to us that they justthey'll say they want to do this
for efficiency, and then we'llsay, well, is that the best for
your customer?
Like, do you think that that'sthe best value that you're
(21:38):
creating for your customer?
There are definitely certainthings where efficiency is the
most important thing for them,Like speed at which you do
something is good and that's apart of their brand.
That's great, but it definitelyis, sometimes, I will say,
pulling teeth, because, you know, again, cx is kind of a
forgotten child, like it doesn'tknow the process of all of this
, where it should be like anintegrated part of everything
(22:01):
that happens in the organization.
Sarah Caminiti (22:04):
I think that that is the perfect way to
describe CX, though, because Ithink we are a very difficult
thing for people to wrap theirhead around, because the nuances
and the complexity that goesinto actually caring for the
customer experience in a waythat impacts many different
(22:27):
places of the business makes themiddleness of CX really
important, because it is abridge and it is the source of
so much information.
(22:48):
But that's overwhelming.
That is incredibly overwhelmingif that is not your space and
to think about I mean, this isme doing a hypothetical of
people outside of the CX space.
You started a business, you'relaser focused on nailing down
(23:09):
the UX and you've got all theseengineers who are like 90%
engineers in your company andyou're just building and
building and building andinnovating, and the mindset can
very easily skew to well, ourproduct is so incredible, it'll
speak for itself.
And then when you start askingquestions about well, what
(23:29):
happens here and what happenshere and what are you going to
do when this happens and how isthis flow going to build within
your pipeline and how are yougoing to shift when your plan
for the year doesn't work,because your customer, your
customers, talking about allthis stuff and often those
(23:53):
conversations end and they justkind of continue on their
journey.
So I think that's a perfectanalogy and I got to know, like,
what do you hope people thinkabout reflect on before they
enter into these conversationswith a BPO?
Craig Crisler (24:15):
You know, I think I, I, I hope that.
Well, specifically, they'recoming to us for CX, like if, if
they're looking at or CS, mostof the time they're coming to us
pants on fire, you know, likewe just need help, um, but you
know, one of the big things thatI really hope that they they
(24:35):
think about and kind of takesome time to understand is in,
in, in.
They've already.
Actually this is the hard partThey've already done the work.
Like if you've built a productor you've built a SAS, whatever
it is that you're doing, likeyou have this thing that is
driving value to a consumer,right, Whatever that consumer is
business or end user and soyou've built something that
(24:58):
actually has value.
Okay, so wait, how do you wantthat value to be articulated in
the way in which you interactwith them after they have the
product?
Like, how do you want thatvalue to continue to be created
after they have the product?
And so think about that beforeyou get into these conversations
with your strategic partner atBPO, because you know, if you're
a traditional BPO, like they'll, they'll be like this stuff has
(25:20):
to be all nailed down.
They'll just tell you like,look, you have to have all your
scripts.
You have to tell me exactlywhat it is you want me to tell
you.
All of these things you have tosay to be able to do this job
right.
But for us we're like, we wantto make sure we're co-creating
value with you.
So if we're not doing that like, tell us what good looks like,
(25:40):
tell us what you know, anexcellent experience for your
end user feels like have thatthought, even if it's rough,
before you come and talk to usbecause we can hone it in and
make it great.
Um, but if you cause you'vealready done the work.
You know what the what, thevalue of the product is.
But how do you want that valueto continue to be driven into
(26:01):
that product in the next phaseof that product after they have
it?
You know, and if you have thatstuff, I think, nailed down I
think most you know and you seethose businesses that have that
nailed down you know like it'san experience after the
product's delivered that you'relike, oh, okay, well, this is
what this feels like.
This is what good CX peoplewill say, it's good CX.
It's like, oh, yeah, this iswhat it feels like and it's
(26:23):
because they're saying, okay,we're constantly driving this
value chain with you, you knowof like being like it's not just
when the product is delivered,it's everything that occurs in
that value chain.
Sarah Caminiti (26:34):
Yep, yeah, no, I think that that would be.
That's a good reflection pointto uh, to to set yourself up,
even if you're, even if you'rejust kind of starting to
strategize of what's next for us, before you find the next
solution, understand what valuemeans to your product and how to
keep it going.
(26:55):
After they hit subscribe orafter they download or whatever
it is that your service is.
For.
Having founded and worked in somany different companies over
the years, how has that all setyou up for?
For Support Ninja and and forstaying here and and and just
(27:17):
growing this space?
Craig Crisler (27:19):
Yeah, well, I think it one is I kind of have a
unique person, well, how do Iput this?
So I've been in.
Most of the companies I'veworked in have been very
different.
There's only kind of been onevertical I had a couple of ed
tech companies, um, you know,but for the most part it's been
very varied.
(27:40):
What I've done, um, and I, and Ithink, though, what, what has
been helped me, set up meSupport Ninja for this was kind
of the selfish part of me beingSupportNinja in with Connor
and Cody was that I get all thestuff I love about business,
which is that watching companiesgrow and watching people grow,
watching people develop productsand like, put it on the market
(28:00):
and see if the company, see, ifit see if the world likes it.
You know, and all that stuff,all of that excitement I get to
be a part of, in, you know, 240plus companies and like and and
like, and that is amazing tolike, see that stuff, you know,
to be able to have thoseconversations and with these,
you know, sometimes, founders,sometimes they're big and
they're rolling something newout or and so it, having had
(28:24):
that varied experience, allowsme to kind of say, okay, well,
if anything, I understand wherethey're at, but then, more
importantly, I understand thatit's going to be different for
everybody and so how can I, howcan we build something that's
flexible enough and adaptableenough and drive enough value to
them that they feel like we'rea good partner, um, in this
(28:44):
value creation um, and so Ithink that part has set me up
well for that.
It says to in terms of workingwith Support Ninja, but also, I
think too, going back to what Iwas talking about before in
relationship to the fact of,like I don't mind being the baby
in the room, like not reallyunderstanding everything and I'm
just absorbing, like becauseI'm almost, you know, like one
(29:09):
of the startups we were doingmilitary tech.
I'm not a military guy, I neverwent into the military, like
you know, but we did militarytech and we sold it to Raytheon
and so, like, no background inthat, but figured it out, you
know, and like and kind ofabsorb whatever's there in a way
(29:32):
and understand how and whatways can we build something that
will help in this process.
You know, I think positions mewell.
It's almost like this kind ofon one side, it's like I have
the ability to have experiencein a lot of different verticals
and then the other side of it'sbeing like well, I'm also OK
being pretty dumb and learningon the fly quickly to understand
(29:54):
what it is that we can helpwith.
Sarah Caminiti (29:56):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
That is your approach to all ofthese different adventures that
you've gone on.
I feel like you are a verykindred spirit in that regard,
because I also find myselfentering into companies that I
know nothing about, and I almostprefer it because I'm able to
(30:20):
and I usually do stay as removedfrom totally understanding the
product as I can while stillbuilding and leading, because
I'm able to see things from acustomer perspective that you
can't.
When you understand all thenuances and when you understand
(30:42):
what it should be doing and canmake those quick adjustments and
assumptions of where you needto click or something like that,
and you can connect on such adeeper level with a customer
when you're able to feel theconfusion because you then go
through the process yourself andyou're like, oh my gosh, you're
right, this doesn't make anysense.
(31:02):
This is valid.
I think that we need to lookinto this and to have you going
through all these companies andallow yourself to be curious and
allow yourself to just besomebody that is new to the
space.
That's a vulnerable thing.
To do over and over again isperfect for a BPO where you're
(31:28):
interacting with very variedtypes of companies that you
don't necessarily need tounderstand the nuances, for in
order to provide them a qualitysupport experience.
Craig Crisler (31:43):
Right, well, and it's in this space too.
It's interesting.
I think it's intriguing becausewe've been, you know, like
we've been in rfps and stufflike that, where they really
want us to kind of stick to therules and and and just just
respond the way that they theywant us to respond.
But, like, I'm always like,well, do we have to?
(32:04):
Like is, is this, like we'retrying to solve a problem like
and, and the problem haveprobably has a solution that may
be simpler than we're thinking.
It is like um, and and, justbecause it's always been done
that way, doesn't really need tobe done that way, like is there
a different way?
And so it's funny how manytimes with some of these rfps,
like where we'll respond andthey'll be like we love you, we
(32:26):
just can't figure you out, andI'm like it's not that
complicated.
Like, like you know, we're,we're we're driving towards a
solution that will drive valueto you, like, not necessarily
the solution that you'vepreconceived as the best
solution for this problem, um,based on, you know, procurement
rules or whatever the case maybe.
(32:46):
We're trying to get to asolution that's going to drive
value to you, um, but that goesback to like how old this
industry is.
It's just, you know, it actslike an old industry at times
and and I'm I'm much more oflike a startup guy where it's
like, hey, let's try somethingnew, like what's the worst that
could happen?
Like you know, it's better totry and fail and then learn and
(33:07):
then do consistently somethingpoorly.
You know, I that's.
You know what's the definitionof insanity Doing the same thing
over and over again, expectinga different result.
So if it's not working now theway that you've built it, why
don't we try something different?
You know.
Sarah Caminiti (33:24):
Yeah, that's an important mindset to share with
companies that do findthemselves locked into the safe
route.
I think that's something withleadership that I have since I
started building and leadingteams.
I wanted to do what I neverreally saw and I wanted to
(33:49):
understand why I never reallysaw these inclusive, supportive,
encouraging environments.
Last, because, it's not to say,the people that I've worked
with in the past didn't try, butit's so much easier when things
are hard to go back to what youknew worked for other people
(34:09):
that you saw, or at least likethey survived it at the end of
the day, like you've got theframework.
You saw this like the last sixcompanies that the boss turns
into you know a big brother typeperson and starts like
nitpicking everything you do andbeing very like gatekeepy and
defensive, and it's very easy toget that instant head shift
(34:33):
into like survival powerhoarding.
And I think that thattranslates exactly into
businesses as well If you don'thave somebody there constantly
saying no, no, we're not doingthis, no, you're not going back
to that old way.
We already said that old waywas bullshit.
Craig Crisler (34:55):
And.
Sarah Caminiti (34:57):
I know things suck right now.
I know things suck, but let'sacknowledge that it sucks.
Let's acknowledge to our teamthat we understand that it sucks
and we trust them and weappreciate them and we value
them enough to bring them intothe shit with us and figure out
(35:18):
how we're going to make itbetter.
And I would love to knowbuilding a company with values
that are.
They seem like your businessvalues connect very well to your
personal core values and youfound this really nice alignment
.
But that must be very it mustbe very difficult at times to
(35:42):
keep that path visible and stayon it, because it takes it takes
work yeah, it takes disciplineand, like I don't even know if
discipline's the right word, Iactually think it comes back to
transparency, like you know it.
Craig Crisler (36:02):
You know it comes back to that concept of saying,
like, even when you know, as aleader, let's say, you have to
make a tough choice and there'ssomething, some change that
needs to occur, and and and you,and ultimately, because you're
in the seat you're in, you haveto make a decision and
ultimately it's your name thathas the sign, or whatever it is.
And I think, like having thatlevel, you know if you abide by
(36:25):
your values and really trulybelieve in it, like to be
transparent with everybody andtell them like this is why I
made this decision, or this iswhy this decision was made at
the group, or you know, this iswhy I agreed with the decision I
was made.
You know and and and owning it,and you know warts and all you
know.
Um, I remember one time thiswas in the early SupportNinja
of you know like I made amistake, you know like it was a
(36:48):
mistake.
It was a straight up mistake.
And and I remember I went intoa town hall and I told everybody
I made a mistake.
And, and I remember, um, therewas a, uh, one of the agents in
the Philippines.
I saw them and they're like,are you okay?
And I'm like, yeah, I think youknow it was a true caring,
because they were like you know,they were so not used to to
(37:11):
like somebody saying out loudthat an owning, you know error,
you know and and and being ableto say like this is my problem
and this is the mistake I madeand I own it, you know, and um,
but you know I said, yeah, I'mfine, it's great.
Like this is what you knowhonestly, like if you, if you
have the same thing, you shouldown it too, it's okay.
(37:31):
Like you know, we're all human.
You know, like, there's nothingyou know I I used to say we, I
do this thing called a not soFriday update, where I do like a
video thing for the team everyFriday and, um, it's part of me
being more transparent, justlike, kind of what happened this
week shout outs, bringing inguest stars.
You know the whole line.
And it's funny because you knowI used to say all the time like
(38:00):
you know, I can guarantee allof you one thing that I will at
some point will screw up that Ican guarantee.
The rest of it I can't reallyguarantee, but I can guarantee
at some point I will actuallyscrew this thing up and um, and
I think that that ownership oftransparency allows the company
to flourish, because then atthat point hopefully people
follow that model of saying like, oh yeah, it's okay, craig made
a mistake, I can say it too.
(38:21):
It's like I'll make a mistake,you know, but transparency to me
it like cuts through everything.
It's one of those things,honestly, like that's one of the
biggest lessons I think Ilearned in my recovery.
You know, was that you know?
In getting know, was that youknow?
And getting sober, was that, um, I could be and should be as
(38:43):
transparent and real to me as Ipossibly can, because it's much
harder to keep a lie or to hide,you know.
It's so much more difficultthan it's just as being me, you
know, and being human and wartsand all um and like.
That part, I think, was like ahuge turning point for me in my
recovery and especially as me asa leader in my career was, was
(39:05):
being able to see like, oh, Ican just be Craig, you know, and
people will still like me, youknow, as people still respect me
and you know, even if I make amistake, they'll still respect
me.
And, um, you, you know, and Idon't need to try to pretend to
be somebody.
I'm not, you know, and it'sfunny.
(39:26):
I think it drives my boardcrazy, though, because I'll be
talking to somebody else.
Well, you have to be overlytransparent, and I was like lay
it out, and they'll be like youdid that out loud, why, why not?
I mean, what's the worst thatcould happen?
Someone's going to say it tosomebody else.
Like, you know, it just doesn'tthey.
(39:47):
They love me, but at timesthey're like come on, craig,
really no well it's.
Sarah Caminiti (39:52):
It's an adjustment, like in you showing
your team and and all of thepeople that SupportNinja with
like no, I'm just going to sayI'm not going to like preface it
, I'm not going to like changemy tone.
This is just I'm having aconversation with you and I'm
telling you I did not dosomething that I wanted to do.
(40:15):
Like the outcome was not what Ithought it was going to be.
I thought it was going to bedifferent.
I made a mistake, I screwed up,you know, and we're still a
company, we're still alive,we're still afloat.
I'm still here, I didn't getfired.
And that means that you now cansay this didn't go well, I
messed this up.
And now you can ask, hey, whydid this not go well?
(40:42):
Where in this process didthings go awry?
I scare many of the people thatI work with because I always ask
why did you do what you did,the way that you did it?
And that's not in any sort ofnegative way.
I'm not trying to like get youinto a gotcha moment.
I want you to actually walk methrough the whole thought
(41:05):
process so that I can figure outwhat moment things did not go
as planned, because it's my jobto make you confident enough to
go on this journey and have theoutcome work out the way that
you hoped that it would work out, and once people start to
(41:26):
understand oh wait a second whenI do acknowledge this, like I
don't, I don't get in troubleLike we actually like put a fix
in place for this.
It's so cool because you'reable to fix things in the moment
with the context and and buildoff of it, and so you're
providing such a gift by byproving it.
Craig Crisler (41:45):
I love that question.
I must feel it like well, causeit definitely cuts to.
It cuts through the noise,right Like there's all kinds of
noise, whether it be in our heador you know.
It's just like ridiculous.
And and it cuts through thenoise and it says like, show me
what you did.
It reminded me of we had anagent.
It was.
They were working with one ofour clients and and he was just
(42:06):
doing like two times whateveryone else was doing, at a
quality that was phenomenal,like, and we were like we
actually thought he was like atfirst, we were like is he
cheating, like his you know?
Like like what's, what's goingon?
Because it's just he was farand above anybody else.
And so we sit down and we'relike, hey, show us what you're
doing.
And it turns out he like builta program to help his work.
(42:29):
Oh my god and for and like, andand.
So he did it and he built thisprogram, you know, and that
program, and it ended up beingused by the rest of the team,
like he actually ended uprolling it out to the rest of
the team.
We rolled it out to the client,like all this other stuff,
because it made it moreefficient and better, right and
and um.
But you know, we, unless we hadasked the why, just be like, and
(42:50):
of course you know the noisejumped us to the conclusion of
being like this is a hack andlike you know, like is he?
You know have like a keystrokehelper or something like that,
but like, but he had figured outa way to work around, to make
to create value and um and like,even in the mistakes or the
wins, like him, like in in thoseanalysis of like, asking the
(43:10):
why, like you talked about, likeyou get so much, like you can
you that transparency of peelingback all the onion layers and
trying to get down to the coreof it.
You're like, oh, okay, so thisis the problem, you know, and um
, and it's not you that's theproblem, it's this thing.
Like you know, maybe a step,you know, maybe you know a tool
or whatever it is.
(43:31):
You know it's very, you know, Iwould love to say it's easier
to point fingers, but like it'sactually a lot harder to prove
that and like in, in fact Ithink it's I don't know it's
detrimental to the team to tellall you're doing is point
fingers Like cause, then itdoesn't help.
Sarah Caminiti (43:47):
Like well, it creates a hostile environment.
For what?
Craig Crisler (43:51):
For what?
Yeah, like it doesn't, there'sno value in it.
Like there's, you know it's,there's, you know it's.
Uh, you know.
Point to it.
I mean, I was in a meeting onceand we were talking about
something.
I said, well, point the fingerat me, I don't care.
Like yeah, you know.
Like it's fine.
Like, if you guys want to pointthe finger at somebody, point
at me, that's fine.
But let's talk about theproblem.
Sarah Caminiti (44:09):
Like right, like get the pointing done, like get
that cup full for you and thennow, now let's just move on,
because there's, there's muchmore to this that is productive
and it's not that.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, no,it's.
I'm glad to hear that there isa, there's a company that that
(44:32):
promotes error at scale and as awin, like and when I say error
as a win, I just meanacknowledging error, because we
are all trying to do our best,and the second that you start
thinking, the second you startremoving the people from the
(44:53):
events or just any of it, thesecond you remove the people,
you'll lose that piece that is,we are all just people trying to
do our best.
Obviously, this person is notgoing to create some bizarro
takedown plan with this onelittle error that they did.
(45:14):
There's a reason behind it.
Let's figure out what thereason is.
Craig Crisler (45:19):
Yeah, behaviors don't happen in a vacuum.
It's built on something andit's based on something.
But, yeah, and I will say, Imean it is one of those things.
It's definitely an uphillbattle, like at times where
you're trying to get people toget comfortable with that, and
it's definitely an uphill battle, like at times you know where
you're trying to get people toget comfortable with that, and
(45:40):
it's not always easy, you know,and, um, and and it's also hard.
I think people, um, humility,you know.
You know one of our values isalways be humble, and and and
it's humility is just a toughone, right, like it's just a
really tough, you know kind ofposition to put yourself in to
be able to say that you know I'm, I'm fallible, you're fallible,
(46:01):
we're all fallible, like, we'reall going to, you know it's,
you know, and we all don't thinkthat we're the best.
You know, like we just thinkcollectively we're better.
And it's hard to like, kind ofI used to in the early days of
this board engine with managers,would come in from traditional
BPO.
It's like there'd be like teamleaders or site directors or you
know whatever.
(46:25):
I would say to people the firstcouple of weeks I'm going to
untrain you Everything that youlearned in terms of hierarchical
management process and yellingat agents and all that stuff.
I said I'm going to, I'm goingto, I'm going to rehab you.
You're going to be better whenwe're done.
Um, because you, I'm going to,I'm going to, I'm going to rehab
you, you're going to be betterwhen we're done Because you'll
cause I, I don't want you to bethat way anymore.
You know I want you to be okaywith coaching, I want you to be
(46:45):
okay with inspiring and, likeyou know, being a servant leader
and you know all that stuff andum, but still, yeah, you know
it's to your point.
Earlier people, you know, theyknow they'll default back when
the pressure's on.
Why'd you do that?
You don't need to do that, man.
It's okay Like let's, let's trythis, but let's go back to the
way we believe would be betterfor all of us.
Sarah Caminiti (47:05):
Yep, little reset, it's a little reset.
Uh, I feel like I could talk toyou, craig, for literally
70,000 hours, and I am so tickedoff that the time is what it is
.
But so that I make sure I don'tgo over too far, as planned, I
end every episode by asking ourguests what era do you find
(47:30):
yourself in, or what era are youmoving into?
And so, craig, I would love toknow what's your era.
Craig Crisler (47:38):
You know, I was thinking about this in terms of
music, you know in terms of kindof music, and I was thinking
about that.
I I'm kind of in the era, andyou know, um, yeah, I was
thinking about the Beatles.
Actually I was thinking aboutthe Beatles and um, and there
was that era, like right beforethey like kind of broke up you
know, like where you know and um, but it was that the like right
(47:59):
before they like kind of brokeup, you know like where you know
, and um, but it was that thelast couple of albums, like let
it be, and like there's like thelast little kind of snippets of
time there where they and Ikind of feel like I'm in that
era of being like I've foundsomething that I thoroughly
enjoy and that you know, and Ihit, and I've hit this um stride
in my life of being completelyhappy with the work that I'm
(48:24):
doing.
I may not love it all the time,but I'm always happy with what
I'm doing, that Um, and and I'vefound that you know, it's like
I cut the bands, like just at ahome, you know where we're just
like we may not be alwayssuccessful, but we're just, you
know, we've locked in and we'redoing great and stuff like that.
(48:45):
And with SupportN inja and thiscompany specifically, it hits
on all the things I love aboutbusiness, which is people, and
it just really just knocks itout of the park with that,
because I get to interact andwork with so many different
clients and so many differentpeople and stuff like that.
So it's like we're making thislike great music all the time.
You know, it's just thisconstant process of making great
(49:07):
music and some sometimes it'sthrowaway songs, sometimes it's
stuff that will make it on therecord, but we're we're humming
you, you know, and so it's kindof where I feel like I'm at era
wise, where it's like, you know,I feel like things are, are the
, the bands together and it'sworking well, you know, and I'm
happy with that, and personallyit's the same way, like the
(49:27):
bands together and, uh, even mydaughter's, like we're doing
great, you know, they like mestill, even though they're both
in college and they want to bearound me, which is a shock, um,
but that's, I think that'swhere I'm at.
I'm kind of in that, like youknow, not quite to the breakup
stage where I'm sick ofeverybody in the world, like,
but I, like I still love playingmusic and it's like we're all
together, the band's going, youknow, like that's where I think
(49:50):
man, that sounds like that isthe goal.
Sarah Caminiti (49:53):
That is it's you found alignment, found
alignment of the things that youwere supposed to do, and do
them the way that you know theyshould be done to meet you, your
needs and who you are, but alsoimpact others around you
positively, and you should bereally proud of yourself,
because that is work to get tothis space.
(50:17):
Because that is work to get tothis space.
It was work for the Beatles tofigure out what worked and what
didn't in order to find that hum, and some incredible things
came out of it, because I thinkthat there's a piece to it.
You're able to be at peace fora moment, you're not grinding as
much because you have thatalignment.
(50:38):
Um, so that's really amazing.
I'm very happy for you, craig.
You deserve that.
Craig Crisler (50:44):
Oh, thank you I.
You know, it's funny when I am,I think I am proud of myself.
But it's always that thing ofwhere, like, you know how it
goes, you know you look in themirror and you go okay, are you?
Are you going to be okay today?
So that part, I'm always there.
But no, I really appreciate it.
Thank you, sir, this has beengreat I really have enjoyed it.
Sarah Caminiti (51:05):
Craig, this has been wonderful.
I am pissed that it is the endand we've gone over two minutes.
I really could keep talking toyou for so long.
And that wraps up today'sspecial episode of Epochal
Growth.
I couldn't have asked for abetter way to celebrate than by
sharing Craig Crisler's thoughtson leadership and co-creating
value in the workplace.
(51:25):
We're so close to the end ofseason one, and this episode has
definitely set the tone for aninspiring finale.
Thank you all for yourcontinued support and for making
this journey so meaningful.
Be sure to join us for thefinal episode and until then,
stay curious and keep growing.
I'm Sarah Caminiti.
(51:46):
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a great day.
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