September 24, 2024 • 56 mins
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Discover the ageless principles of customer support with our special guest, Mat Patterson, the Customer Service Content Lead at Help Scout. We embark on a historical journey through the fundamentals of customer service, examining how they've endured through time while facing modern challenges. Mat digs into the transformative potential of AI in customer support, offering invaluable insights on crafting effective self-service platforms and integrating AI thoughtfully without compromising service quality.
Next, we tackle the transitional phase companies experience when adopting AI tools in customer support. Learn about the common pitfalls of cheap AI solutions and the crucial role of maintaining high-quality support professionals. Mat shares his perspective on the rewarding aspects of nurturing talent in the support field, emphasizing the alignment of personal and workplace values, and the opportunities arising from market frustrations. We also explore skill improvement and career growth in a refreshing take on leadership within customer service.
Finally, we dive into the essence and mission of "The Supportive" Podcast & Newsletter and it's related content. Mat shares the unique challenges faced by support teams and the vision of Help Scout's founders. We discuss the importance of maintaining core values under financial pressures and the profound learning curve experienced by support teams. Tune in to understand the value of community in fostering growth and alleviating the stresses of support roles, and why everyone, including non-support staff, should appreciate the nuanced skills and emotional labor involved in customer support.
“Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”
- Barack Obama
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Caminiti (00:07):
Welcome to Epochal Growth, the podcast
where we explore the powerfulintersection of leadership and
customer experience to drivemeaningful change.
I'm your host, Sarah Caminiti,and I'm so happy that you're
here Today.
We're diving into anothertransformative conversation, but
before we get started, I'd lovefor you to take a moment to
follow Epochal Growth whereveryou listen to podcasts, share
(00:29):
this with your network and, ifyou value these episodes and
these discussions as wecelebrate these leaders, please
leave a review.
It helps others discover theshow and it really fuels our
growth.
Today I am so excited toannounce Mat Patterson, the
customer service content lead atHelp Scout, is here to chat
with us.
Mat is an expert in elevatingcustomer service strategies and
(00:49):
today we're going to explore theinsights that can reshape how
we approach the ever-evolvingworld of customer support.
Stick around, because thisepisode is packed with
actionable key takeaways you'renot going to want to miss.
Mat Patterson (01:02):
Hello, I am Mat Patterson.
Here just south of Sydney inAustralia, I work for Help Scout
, where I am, I guess, acustomer service educator maybe
is how I say it Basicallytalking about customer service
and how we can do it better,especially online.
Sarah Caminiti (01:21):
I love that and I'm so, so happy that you're
here, Mat.
You didn't even mention yourpodcast, which you totally
should have name dropped.
Mat is the host of thesupportive podcast that has so
many wonderful gems within it.
You just started it recentlyand I'm just really excited to
record a conversation of ustalking about things that we
(01:44):
could talk about for days anddays and days.
I mean, you built an entirecareer off of talking about
customer support and how we canthink about it differently.
Do it better, give it a littlebit more respect and space to
shine, and thank you for findingsome time in your next day,
(02:08):
since you're in Australia, tohang out with me over here.
Mat Patterson (02:11):
Thank you for having me.
It's exciting to talk about and, as you say, I have talked
about customer support a lotover the last eight years.
Eight years I've been at HelpScout, so that's eight years of
talking about the doing ofsupport, and then before that I
spent nearly 10 years running asupport team at Campaign Monitor
in Australia.
So that's a long time.
(02:32):
That's a long time.
That's a lot of customers talkto in that time.
Sarah Caminiti (02:36):
Well, yeah, for sure, man, I didn't realize that
you were at Help Scout foreight years, that's so then I
have to ask, like, if you arecreating content, you're
educating, you're learning aboutthe nuances of support as
support has evolved over thesepast eight years?
I mean, you even were doingthis during COVID, and support
(02:57):
was like kind of flipped on itshead during COVID, its head
during COVID.
What have you taken away aslike what's something you want
to keep talking about over andover again and what's?
Mat Patterson (03:10):
something that's like totally changed Customer
support.
I mean I've said this a fewtimes.
I think it's a reallyinteresting field in that in
some ways it never changes right.
You can go right back and Ijust talked about this on the
Supportive podcast which youshould download, um.
But the very first customerservice complaint, which a lot
of people will know about, theuh copper trader a and a seer
(03:35):
who in his house in ancientmesopotamia had that tablet of a
complaint letter.
He actually had a whole pile ofcomplaint letters from other
customers as well, just saying,like you said you were going to
sell me this thing, I didn'tlike it, it's not great quality,
I'm not happy, I want my moneyback.
And I mean, that's 4,000 years.
That's not too different thanwhat we do today, is it?
(03:57):
So in some ways it's absolutelythe same thing, and it's just
the way in which things aredelivered, the way in which the
service can be delivered, thatchanges over time.
But in other ways, we're rightnow in the middle of a moment
where maybe things are going tochange.
Maybe there will be technologywhich can not only assist you to
talk to your customers and toreach out to them in different
(04:17):
ways and in different mediums,but that we'll be able to
directly help customers, maybe,maybe with artificial
intelligence, of course.
So I'm sure we will probablyget into that.
That's certainly the topic ofthe year at every support
conversation that I have.
Sarah Caminiti (04:32):
No, it's true, it's when I was reflecting on
this, actually, because Ilistened to your episode about
self-service and I haverecommended that to every single
person that I can find, becauseyou unlock like the actual key
pieces to building and likesetting yourself up to build.
(04:52):
Eventually, if you're not evenready to build a self-service
space and do it well and don'tyou know, cut corners, which you
really can't if you're going toactually be successful having a
space, that's self-service.
But with AI, I've realizedprobably about half of my
episodes of Epochal Growth.
(05:14):
The conversations just kind ofnaturally turned into a
conversation about AI, aconversation about AI.
And it's so interesting becauseso many leaders within the
customer support space orcustomer experience space and I
mean I'm talking to people likeover at Zapier or people that
(05:35):
are running like call centersare so thoughtful about AI and I
love seeing how committed allof these leaders are to not
going the shiny toy route andreally, really taking the care
(05:58):
and the time to understand thebenefits and also the negatives
about adding this to your space.
And that's so different thanwhat we see on spaces like
LinkedIn, where there's so muchnoise about AI, and it's so
(06:22):
different from the reality ofthe people that are actually
leading the teams that have toimplement it, and what are you
seeing?
I mean, you're working for ahelp desk that has to think, add
, experiment with AI so thatother support leaders can go
about AI in the correct way.
(06:44):
What kind of conversations areyou having about AI within a
help desk company?
Mat Patterson (06:52):
Yeah, we're having lots of conversations.
I think everybody's havingthese conversations.
Maybe to take a step back for aminute, it's interesting to me
that on LinkedIn, in the worldin general, customer service
every time there is a newtechnology, customer service is
often where we could use this tolike replace customer service.
(07:12):
It's nearly always at the frontof the line for things that
maybe we could stop spendingmoney on, which is suggestive,
maybe, of how people value thosethings.
But I think maybe theinteresting thing about AI and
customer service is that as westart to try and implement it
and HelpScout does have AIfeatures in the product with
(07:34):
more to come, as does most ofthe competitors out there as
well but as we start to try andimplement them, you realize that
what our support team does isnot something that AI can do.
At least, it can't do all of it.
There is just enormous numbersof things that the support team
does which are really we callsupport, but really like it's a
(07:56):
sort of a form of sales.
It's a sort of sometimes it'ssort of therapy for a customer,
sometimes it is marketing.
We're doing all sorts of thingsin support teams that you
wouldn't want an AI to try anddo.
I think how we imagine that AIis able to do things is well,
there's a question and there'san answer, and the AI can match
(08:17):
that up, which it can do.
It does a pretty good job of ifthere is a very specific
question with a specific answer.
It's good at finding those andthen rewording them in different
ways and that conversationalway of accessing essentially a
knowledge base and there isdefinitely a part of your
support team that's what they'redoing.
They're finding the question,they're matching it to an answer
that they already have in theirhead or in their knowledge base
(08:38):
or in their internaldocumentation, and then they're
explaining it to that customer.
Some part of that the AI will beable to help with or even do in
some cases, and certainlydifferent types of businesses
might find that easier ifthere's more repetition.
I think internally at HelpScout, the kind of questions
we're getting are often socomplicated and have so many
(08:59):
different pieces that there isno single answer.
You can't point anyone to aknowledge base that answers all
of the parts of their questionor, if it does, you still want
to interpret that answer in away that makes sense for their
context, because that's whatgood service is it's adapting it
to this person and this contextand what they're actually
trying to do, which is often notwhat they actually asked to do,
and all of the complexity arethere and we're just going to
(09:23):
find out.
Oh, actually, support is a lotmore than we thought it was once
we try to replace parts of itwith artificial intelligence.
Sarah Caminiti (09:31):
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping.
You're starting to see littlebits of it, such an increase in
just visibility of people thatare talking about the realities
of leading or building or justbeing in a support role and what
(09:57):
that career trajectory actuallylooks like and the skills that
are required in order to do thiswell, and I don't think that,
even if everybody was talkingabout it, I don't think that
even if everybody was talkingabout it, I don't think that
people were really in the moodto listen.
And I think, with AI, it's beenhighlighting all of these things
that we've been doing for yearsand years and years and years
and years that no one wouldreally pay any attention to.
(10:19):
But now that they're showing itoff as this incredible thing
that these AI tools can provideto your company that you've
never seen before, now it's likewait a second, like I do that.
I've been doing that, we talkabout that, I brought that to
you and it's changing theconversation slowly,
(10:45):
incrementally, but I agree, Ithink it could provide a little
bit more credibility and respectto a space that is a very
taxing and it is a profession.
It is a profession that youhave to be a specific type of
(11:07):
person to thrive in, absolutelyyou do.
Mat Patterson (11:09):
You know what I wish people on LinkedIn would do
, and this is not going tohappen, because the reason that
I think one of the reasons thatcustomer service is the one that
gets thrown at the well, whydon't we use AI for that?
It's because the people who aredeciding to build these AI tools
and the people who are excitedabout them at high levels in
company are not the ones who aredoing the support, so they
(11:31):
don't really understand what thejob is, and so their mental
model of what that part of thebusiness is doing is very
limited and it seems to match upvery nicely with what AI can do
.
But I would like to see andmaybe I should just do this is
start talking about how we'rereplacing executive level
managers with an AI tool to, youknow, arbitrarily make
decisions about things, becauseit feels like to me and
(11:53):
certainly in my experience, andno shade to anyone at Help Scout
this is, I'm thinking more ofprevious jobs.
There are definitely somepeople I could have replaced
with an AI that just randomlychose what to do on any given
week.
I could have replaced with anAI that just randomly chose what
to do on any given week and wewould have the same result.
Sarah Caminiti (12:09):
Yeah, no, I think that's a really good idea.
It could be a fun experiment tojust do some hypotheticals of
what if we replace marketingwith AI.
What would that look like?
What if we did this?
And the end result in most ofthem will be the same end result
that it is with.
Customer support in this can dosome really cool things, but it
(12:32):
cannot replace a person who wasskilled in this space.
Mat Patterson (12:36):
No, and by its very nature, because of the way
that generative AI works, itwill always tend towards
mediocrity, because it isabsorbing everything that's out
there and then it's generating akind of medium version of that.
It's never going to be the onethat does something interesting.
I think it will inspire peopleto do interesting things, but by
itself it's always going to bejust sort of mediocre, and maybe
(12:59):
the best result is that itraises the bar in customer
service of like.
Instead of really terriblehuman-powered support, we get
marginally better AI-poweredsupport across the entire set of
companies in the world, butcertainly most of the people
(13:19):
that we serve at HelpScout and,I think, most of the people
listening to this right now, youalready want to be better than
mediocre, and you probablyalready are, and so the AI will
be used in different ways there.
It'll be used to try andimprove the leverage that a
person has on the work that theydo, and so I suspect that's
(13:40):
where we'll end up.
But we have to go through thisperiod now of what if we just
tried it everywhere foreverything until we figure it
out?
Sarah Caminiti (13:47):
Yep, yep, it'll be a.
It'll be an interesting journey, but I think that the folks
that have made this a career allknow deep down, even if things
get scary, even if it's justdoomsday out there with the way
companies are behaving, thosecompanies will realize their
mistakes and you won't want togo back and work for them,
(14:11):
probably.
But there will be other spacesthat realized what a special
opportunity high quality supportprofessionals provide to a
company, and that is where youwill shine.
This is just a moment to getyou there and we just kind of
(14:31):
got to hang tight.
Mat Patterson (14:33):
Yeah, we've got to hang in there.
We go through the weird hypecycle that we're in and then
we'll come out the other sideand it will become a little bit
clearer.
Hey, this is where these newtools were useful and they could
amplify some of the skills thatwe had and they could help us
deliver the type of service thatwe wanted to deliver to more
customers or across more timezones, or we could do it in a
(14:54):
way that the self-service is anicer experience for them.
I think we'll figure that out,and in between, we're probably
all, as customers, going to haveto suffer through some
companies trying to do thingsthat AI, it turns out, is not
that good at.
Sarah Caminiti (15:08):
I mean, I think we've been suffering through
that now in varying degrees forquite some time.
I know, if I call manydifferent places, I mean, first
problem is that I'm calling themin the first place, where I
could just be hopefully findingout an answer much more easily
online.
But yeah, and then you sufferthrough the yelling at the phone
(15:30):
.
Let me speak to arepresentative.
To stop yourself from goingthrough nine different rounds of
press seven, press five, pressfour the menu changed nothing.
You know before works and nowyou have to start fresh.
And then it just hangs up onyou.
Mat Patterson (15:46):
Yeah, all these things are were just pretty
representative of how thecompany really valued the
service experience, and so it'snot going to magically make
those companies care about goodservice, right?
If they had already decidedit's not really worth investing
money into providing more peopleso that we can deal with the
(16:06):
unexpected, unexpected volume ofcalls which seems to be every
day, every day, then they're notgoing to do that with AI either
.
They'll use the cheapest optionthere and they won't use the
most effective tools.
They won't pay extra to get theAI that they can tweak to be
more performative for theirparticular setup.
They'll just use whatevergeneric, cheap thing they can
(16:28):
and they'll provide generic,cheap service, like they already
were doing.
It would just cost them lessmoney.
But there will be opportunitiesfor other companies who really
want to provide good service andwho maybe couldn't afford it
before.
I think there is potential thatAI could really help them serve
more customers with fewerpeople than they would have had
(16:48):
to have before.
So there will be opportunitiesand companies will come out of
that, I think, who are doingmore impressive things.
Sarah Caminiti (16:56):
I think so too.
I really like what you saidabout the value, because that is
something that I think aboutoften.
If you keep asking why forcertain things, you usually end
up figuring out the value thatthe other person puts into
either you or a role or a taskor a project or whatever it is,
(17:16):
and it paints such a clearpicture.
And once you start thinkingabout things in that way of okay
, this keeps happening.
I've done it all thesedifferent ways.
It's always unsuccessful.
Why is this happening?
What does this mean?
And just keep going.
You'll find out.
Because they don't value this,there's no value for them here.
(17:41):
And then you have to startthinking about what are your
values and how do you show thatyou value something?
And do your values align and isthis a space that you want to
continue to be a part of?
And I think a lot of people inthis field are having these
(18:04):
moments, these exciting moments,where they're giving themselves
the space to say does this,does this really have to be
where I am?
And while the job market isnuts and terrible and just
horrible, horrible, I think thatthere could be so much
(18:27):
opportunity from all thesefrustrations and sadness and
doubt and anger to makesomething so much better.
Whatever that is, who knows,but it's just.
It's been really cool to seepeople allowing themselves to
think about things, and I haveto wonder.
(18:51):
Like Mat, you found yourself ina career where you are able to
share what you've learned, butalso be the advocate and the
voice to a lot of people thatmay not know how to articulate
things.
What have you really lovedabout getting to shine light on
(19:16):
on this career for so, for solong?
Mat Patterson (19:20):
Yes, well, okay, a couple of things.
I think, coming from running asupport team before, one of the
things I really enjoyed aboutcoming here was I get to do the
bits of running a team that Ireally loved the most, which was
identifying, you know, whatpeople want to get better at and
helping them improve theirskills and helping people figure
out what it is that they wantto do.
(19:41):
So I can do that sort of at alarger scale at Help Scout,
where I'm not responsible then,for also for scheduling their
holidays and telling people thatthey have to work on Saturday
or whatever.
And telling people that theyhave to work on Saturday or
whatever the least fun parts ofpeople management.
So I do enjoy that and I enjoyhelping people think about the
(20:03):
job that they're doing.
I think if I had to describe theSupportive, which is a
newsletter and which is apodcast and which is articles on
the website and videos onYouTube, which I do since that
is my job, I do have to describeit it would be that it would be
thinking, helping people thinkthrough their own jobs.
So we all work in this industryand we're all trying to do
(20:26):
something and it's easy to justdo the job, especially in
support, it's such a queue-based, like there is always more to
do.
You never get to the end andhave that time to look up and
think where am I going here?
What am I doing?
Do I want to be doing thesesame things that I was, or
should we be doing thingsdifferently?
Like, you just don't often getthat space, and so I am in a
(20:46):
position where I can have thatspace and can help people to
maybe have a perspective ontheir work, on the industry, on
the career that they have, andgive them a bit of a framework
for them to think through theirown things and to come to their
own decisions.
So that's probably, I think,what the supportive really is
for ultimately is can we thinkabout what this is that we're
(21:09):
doing, and what do we care aboutand what do we value and what
can we make better?
And sometimes it means helpingpeople figure out.
This is not for me and actuallyI'm better suited to do this
other thing and I can transferthose skills out to a different
role, which I would love to seemore people coming out of
support into, for example,executive leadership roles.
I think that would improve theworld immeasurably.
(21:31):
Executive leadership roles.
Sarah Caminiti (21:32):
I think that would improve the world
immeasurably.
I agree, oh my gosh, I agree somuch, and what a cool
opportunity to, instead oftaking this content that you are
producing for a help deskcompany and have it be
operationally focused only andhave it be very like regimented
(21:53):
in the data or selling piecesabout Help Scout, that you
instead found a way to makesomething that is educational
and conversation but also iscelebratory and honest and
(22:17):
connecting to the individualsthat are actually working in the
queue and not just the peoplethat think that they understand
support.
That's really cool.
Mat Patterson (22:29):
It is cool and I think a lot of the credit for
that goes to the people whostarted Help Scout, because the
reason that I can do this hereand that I am not having to
constantly sell the product HelpScout which you definitely
should sign up to, but I don'thave to do that in the content
all the time because the peoplewho started Help Scout Nick and
(22:50):
Denny and Jared the three ofthem always cared about good
service and they always wantedto be helpful to their customers
, and so they're willing tospend money to be helpful and
informative and useful in a waythat doesn't directly drive
business.
I mean, in the long term,obviously we hope that people
try HelpScout because they likethe way that we talk about
(23:12):
customer service and they thinkthat they align with the values
that we have.
But that value of helpfulnessmeans, yeah, we can be helpful
and useful without having tomonetize everything.
Everything doesn't have to bedriving the business, it can
just be helpful, because wethink being helpful is important
and we would like our businessto reflect that in all of its
(23:34):
aspects, so in the marketing,but also our own support team,
who are incredibly helpful evenwhen they're not directly
answering a question about theproduct and the sales people.
The sales approach of help scoutis also quite different than
some sales organizations thatI've worked with in the past.
I would say there's a differentvibe there.
It is more helpful and it'sokay to say I don't think this
(23:55):
suits you.
Actually I think you'd bebetter off somewhere else, like
that's okay Because that's acore Help Scout value.
So you know, shout out to HelpScout the company for allowing
it.
Sarah Caminiti (24:06):
That's very cool , and that's cool that it's
something that's continuedbecause those dreams of how you
want your business to run.
I think we have all seenfounders that go into running a
company with the best ofintentions and they want to keep
the culture, the dream culture,for as long as they possibly
(24:28):
can.
And then the reality of runninga business kind of starts to
creep in, or maybe they maybeshouldn't be the CEO of
something and they just continueto stay there because they
don't really know what elseneeds to happen and in doing so,
that culture just can no longersurvive.
(24:49):
And so to see that founderscame into this space knowing
that they wanted to provide anopportunity for support teams to
thrive but also feel heard andvalued, and then create a
company where everybody in thecompany also feels heard and
valued and safe, to be honestwith people, which ultimately
(25:11):
provides the best support,because you're building trust
and a relationship with thesepeople, whether you talk to them
once or a hundred times, butthat they stuck with it.
Mat Patterson (25:23):
Yeah, and that's not easy to do, I think, every
company.
There's so many pressures,especially when you have
investors and you need to growthe business, and it really
takes somebody who genuinelybelieves this is important,
especially when you haveinvestors and you need to grow
the business, and it reallytakes somebody who genuinely
believes this is importantbecause they're going to.
Really the only time thatvalues Mat is when you don't do
something that would beotherwise good for the finances
(25:46):
of the business.
Right, if you make a decisionlike this probably would, in the
short term, improve the metrics, make that graph go up and to
the right, but it sort ofconflicts with our core value
and you decide to actually stickwith the core value.
Well then, yeah, you've shown,yes, we do believe this and we
are willing to invest in it,even at some cost, at least in
the short term, and that is rare, I would say.
Sarah Caminiti (26:10):
Especially if you have investors.
So hard rare, I would say,especially if you have investors
.
But, like your actions actuallyspeaking louder than your words
is what we say to our kids overand over again.
It's something that we don'tthink that is really going to
carry the weight that it does,but all of those little things
that you really want to try toinstill in your kids, that your
(26:33):
parents did in you or yourteachers, they actually do Mat
and it does continue to holdthat weight.
And in a world where there's somany options of the same thing,
at the end of it, for a lot ofof these companies, the biggest
differentiator is values, andwhether or not they're staying
(26:57):
true to what they're saying isimportant to them it is and we
should.
Mat Patterson (27:04):
I think we should also applaud the people that in
the companies that make thosemistakes and fall off the track,
maybe go off on a side path andthen figure out oh, we've gone
the wrong way, and we come backto that value Because I think
that happens in every businessas well and the willingness to
allow people to question yourbehaviors and to say is this
actually aligned with what wesay, we believe, and have that
(27:27):
discussion.
That's probably what Mat most ofall, because you're always
going to make mistakes we all do.
We do it corporately as well,but you, yeah, you're right,
it's so easy to lose thatculture and I've been through
that before.
A few different people come in,a few different leaders come in
.
They bring their own historiesand backgrounds not necessarily
a bad culture, just a differentculture and it's so easily
(27:47):
spreads through a bunch ofdecisions, especially if they
end up hiring some othermanagers.
So it can be very tricky.
I'm glad I don't do that job.
I quite like my particularlevel of involvement, but I'm
glad that some people can do itand that they can keep things
aligned.
Sarah Caminiti (28:06):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Do you ever miss running teams?
Mat Patterson (28:13):
I don't think I miss running a team.
I quite enjoy now the creativeaspects and the ability to
control what I create, which,when you're running a team, you
can also be quite creative, butyou're so reliant on a bunch of
other people's input and you'realso trying to keep different
groups of people happy in a way,and you're also trying to keep
(28:33):
different groups of people happyin a way that I don't have to
do in this particular role.
So I don't miss that.
I do miss sometimes thatone-on-one element of you know I
hired this person and thenseeing them go on to new roles
and to higher levels and thatsort of thing, like I really
enjoyed that part of it andthat's something I do miss.
Sarah Caminiti (28:54):
That's fair.
I mean you're doing that,though in a way not one-on-one,
but in more of a broader senseof of helping others kind of see
their potential.
Um, but it must be aninteresting space to find
yourself in for almost a decadewhere you're talking about
support.
You understand support.
(29:15):
I mean it's like it's in yourblood.
I mean once you built a supportteam.
You're kind of stuck in thatheadspace for life, whether you
like it or not.
But, uh, but you haven'tactually been in the queue and
but you're surrounded by thequeue.
You're surrounded by all of thequeues because you work for a
(29:38):
company that houses a queue andthat must be a very strange
thing every now and then to likethink about how you got to
where you are.
Mat Patterson (29:50):
Yeah, I will.
I think one of the things Ienjoy about Help Scout's
approach is that everybody doesdo some work in the queue.
So we have regular power hourswhere we you're like assigned
and this is your hour, you'regoing to get in there and do
some support, and a lot ofpeople that might be their only
opportunity.
That, and when we do wholecompany retreats, everyone's
(30:12):
assigned some times and be like,yeah, you're doing support in
this time, which is excellent.
Having been on the other end ofthat in a previous job, where
the whole company's in the poolexcept for the support team who
are in a meeting room justbanging out tickets, I really
appreciate that, and so I alwaystry and get in there and we
have a little friendlycompetition Some of us
non-support people about who cando the most support
(30:34):
conversations on a retreat, andI think I'm currently I'm on
about a four-year streak, so I'mdoing okay.
My number one competitor who wasnot from a support background.
So impressive work, eli, youknow who you are.
He has changed.
He's left Help Scout now, soit'll just be Nick the CEO.
He comes for me every year, butI've got him.
(30:57):
You know, when I was a campaignmonitor, I think at one point I
went and looked how manyconversations have I actually
done and it was well over 50,000.
So I was like you know thatstuff is all still in there,
even though I'm not a help scoutproduct expert in the way that
I was at campaign monitor.
Sarah Caminiti (31:21):
That's for sure.
I understand that so well.
It is, uh, it's like once youreach a certain level of having
been in support for so long andyou get in the zone when you're
answering those tickets, youcould just fly, you fly and you
don't even realize that you'relike 40 deep and it's only been
like 35 minutes and you don'tremember anything that you have
sent.
But they were all wonderfullyconstructed answers and the
(31:45):
customers were so happy.
But you just kind of becomethis machine.
Mat Patterson (31:50):
Yeah, it does become a sort of instinctual in
a way, and maybe the reason thatI can do what I do now, I think
, is the combination of all ofthat background and the ability
to actually see it and explainit, because I think some people
can do it but could never tellanyone else how they do it, and
that is harder to do.
(32:10):
And so I've just been fortunateto have enough, have the
background and then also havethe interest in the
communication aspect of it andthe external communication, to
be able to like think about whatis actually happening when I'm
in that state and how to maybehelp other people get there.
It's fun to do.
(32:35):
I mean, probably shouldn't tellpeople, but there's certainly
been times in my career insupport where it's late at night
and you're coming back on thetrain from an after work
function, probably not in anideal condition to be doing
support, but still like if Idon't do it now I am going to
have to do it tomorrow morning,so might as well try and help
them.
If you have enough of abackground, you can get away
(32:55):
with it.
I mean I wouldn't recommend it.
Sarah Caminiti (32:58):
I'm not probably going to write it, but you can
do it I mean I definitely have.
Mat Patterson (33:00):
It can be done.
Sarah Caminiti (33:01):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I've been there too.
It is that mindset of why not,I'll just do it now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it reallycan wait until tomorrow.
Like it's fine, they willsurvive.
Everyone will be thriving intheir own special way.
Mat Patterson (33:22):
But if you do want to learn how to do support
and you don't mind a bit of painbeing the first support person,
you have no other option otherthan to figure out every single
question.
I mean, that is a way to reallydeeply learn, uh, the company
and the product and yourcustomers.
But uh, oh, it's a, it's a realin the deep end kind of
situation, though it is, butit's also a really cool time to
(33:49):
realize your skills.
Sarah Caminiti (33:51):
It was, I remember, when I was the first
support person in a company andthey'd been around for a while.
They'd been doing it on theirown and the support queue was so
, so long.
There were so many messages inthere.
They were doing their best butno one was in, no one was a
support person.
(34:11):
And I was in there a week.
I knew nothing about theproduct zip, like not an
industry that I still.
I really don't know much aboutit.
But I was able to just flythrough and I cleared the queue
and, uh, and it was like holycrap, okay, I'm a week into this
thing and I have no idea reallywhat I'm talking about, but I'm
(34:35):
able to figure it out.
And after you do that and yousurvive it and you sleep harder
than you ever have in your life,you come out of it and it's
like, okay, now I can make agame plan because I don't doubt
my ability to do thefoundational stuff.
I know that.
That's fine.
Mat Patterson (34:56):
And I think maybe something that will come out of
this whole AI period is peoplerealizing the skills that they
have, that they maybe were notaware of what they were actually
doing, and the amount of nuanceand background and emotional
energy that goes into supportthat is not visible really to
anyone outside of it andsometimes not even aware you're
(35:17):
not even aware of it yourselfabout how much thinking goes
into what answer comes out, eventhough sometimes the answers
look quite similar to other ones, but there's often a lot of
decisions being made in thebackground.
Sarah Caminiti (35:31):
Oh, that's such a great thing to bring up, Mat,
because it's one of the areasthat I learned when I started
teaching people how to dosupport especially people that
were not native English speakershow to do support, the nuances
and the structure of your replythat was my main focus for a
(35:55):
six-week onboarding.
Before you were able to talk toa customer, I wanted you to be
able to understand how toconstruct a reply, and we would
just go back and forth withiterations of it and I would say
like okay, I tweaked this alittle bit.
Can you see why this isdifferent?
What are you getting from it?
And figuring out where to addinformation, where to throw in
(36:19):
articles to get them to feelconfident, to continue to do
things on their own, where youneed to explain things and how
that varies from person toperson, and you have to grasp
this based on how panicked theyseem in their email that they
send over to you, because youusually have never talked to
them before Like that is a, thatis a whole.
(36:41):
That is a gift that you developover time.
Mat Patterson (36:44):
Yeah, and you can use that.
My wife before.
Before I was replaced with AI,this used to be one of my jobs
in the time.
Yeah, and you can use that, mywife.
Before I was replaced with AI,this used to be one of my jobs
in the home, which was to helpmy wife write emails, like
business emails, when she wantsto explain something, you know,
something which is a little bitemotionally fraught or risky,
(37:05):
Like how do I word this?
It's just so ingrained afteryears and years of like
delicately trying to move peopletowards the thing that they
need to do.
That is a good skill and it'svery transferable to other areas
.
Sarah Caminiti (37:20):
So transferable it is and it's not an obvious
one that you would think to leaninto and to understand where it
fits into job descriptions andhow you could use it.
But no, being able to just likeit's almost like a word vomit
(37:42):
too.
When you're doing it Like youdon't even realize that you're
sending out such a thoughtfulresponse and whatever email
thing outside of the queue thatyou're doing, it just comes and
uh, and it's true I love how youphrase that that you're like
you're inching people towardssomething, because that's all
we're doing.
(38:03):
We're trying to get people tosee it and maybe on your.
Mat Patterson (38:08):
If you're applying for a job, don't put
word vomit on there.
That's probably not going tohelp, but come on that would be
a fun thing.
You know in the skills box thatsometimes you have to fill out
three out of five on word vomitskill.
I mean, that sounds like a gooddescription of chat GPT, to be
honest.
Sarah Caminiti (38:30):
It is most of the time.
Yeah, it's a word.
Yeah, I think people shouldlike.
Mat Patterson (38:35):
this is a great time.
If you're in support right nowand you're thinking about like
what's, what's the job going tobe in a year or two years?
Where are we going to end up?
It's a great time to kind of doan audit of yourself and what
you are good at and what supporthas made you good at, and which
parts of that you enjoy andwhich parts you don't enjoy,
because it might be that thejobs that are out there will
(38:57):
look different than they do now.
And being kind of self-aware inthat way about where you are
now, where you want to get toand what you might like to do,
you can just make betterdecisions if you know which
direction you would rather gobefore you get pushed one way or
another.
This is the time to be thinkingabout it.
So I think that's a greataction item for people.
(39:19):
Even if you're happy in yourjob right now, because we just
don't know, it's unclear whetherthat job will still be there in
the same shape.
I think support jobs willabsolutely still be there, but
they just might look a bitdifferent.
Sarah Caminiti (39:32):
I think that it is such an important thing for
people to really understand.
I, in a roundabout way, definedmy core values and kind of
started I tied it to businesssuccess so that I could really
start to see the correlationbetween the things that I know
to be true and what value theybring to a business.
(39:56):
And doing so allowed me to beso much more comfortable and
confident and articulate in whatI know to be true and the way
that I go about doing it and theway things are moving with AI
folks that are loving their job,that work for a great company
(40:17):
that wants to include them inconversations about AI or about
the changes that are coming withwith the company.
More so than ever, this is yourtime to understand how you can
build something like actuallytake ownership for what allows
(40:39):
you to do your job in the bestway and what makes you super
excited.
And there could be so manyopportunities in the future
sooner probably rather thanlater where you have a support
team, that you've got folks thatare handling, leaning more with
the, with like the CSMs andworking with them, and then
(41:01):
you've got the others that arereally digitally focused.
And what is digitally focused?
Do you have a knowledge base?
Okay, do you love writing?
Do you have a knowledge base?
Okay, do you love writing?
Do you love being able to breakthings down?
Like all of those little thingsare going to be able to, like,
really be built because AI istaking care of the analytics, or
the AI is taking care of, like,understanding what knowledge
(41:26):
bases need to be, you know,revised, or helping you with
maintenance, and all of thatbrain space is going to be freed
up so that you can actuallypause and grow.
Mat Patterson (41:40):
This is the moment to be thinking about that
sort of thing, and I think wewould much rather have a support
person, for example, who is incharge of how do we tweak the
prompt on this AI tool to serveour customers better.
You don't want that to be leftin the hands of an engineer who
maybe does not care aboutcustomer service at all.
I mean, some of them definitelydo and if you're lucky, you
(42:03):
work with some of those and theycan help you.
But better to have supportpeople driving what service
looks like in the future than tohave the technology people
doing it.
Sarah Caminiti (42:14):
And the best way that you can do that is to feel
confident in what it is thatyou're sharing, so that you can
go and insert yourself intoconversations that you may not
even be invited to, but showthat there is value in what you
have to say.
You have a lot of data thatbacks up what it is that you're
saying, and you've got the proofin the pudding for the way that
(42:37):
you approach knowledge basesand how they change the way that
the customers interact with you.
All of those little things youhave to give yourself time to
look at and think about, andthink about what it means for
business goals.
Mat Patterson (42:53):
So how are they going to do that Person who is
right now listening, thinkingabout that?
How are they going to find thattime?
Sarah Caminiti (43:03):
That's a great question, because Now it's my.
Yeah, I like it.
I like it.
I mean, when I was like in thethick of it, I didn't have time.
I didn't even have time to likecomb my hair half the time,
because you're just so in it,and I think that's why it took
me so long to really immersemyself in the CX community.
So that is actually what Iwould recommend you do is, when
(43:28):
you're in the weeds, when youhave no idea how to find space,
go to a CX community, likeelevate CX, and pose a question
in I need help, I need help.
(43:50):
Or reach out to somebody onLinkedIn and use half of your
lunch hour that you probablynever break, never take, but but
please take it and, uh, have acoffee chat with someone that,
like Mat or like me, that wouldbe happy to break it down with
you and understand if there'spossibilities for you to find a
more efficient way to dosomething so you can allow
yourself that time to breathe.
(44:12):
Because that's one of thebiggest things I regret and I
wish.
I wish I could have realizedthat asking for help is such a
vulnerable moment, but theoutcome is just a game changer.
Mat Patterson (44:34):
Isn't that strange that we're all in
support and we are so happy tohelp people and also so bad at
asking for help?
We're like I know I wouldalways be happy to help somebody
, but I also feel terrible aboutasking for help and it's a.
It's a very dumb thing that ourbrains do to us, and you should
(44:55):
feel okay about just saying youknow what?
I don't have the answers.
I would like some help.
I just, or even just sometimesI want someone to talk to me so
that I can figure out the answermyself, but I just need to be
able to say it out loud tosomebody.
Sarah Caminiti (45:11):
Yep, or just be validated, like just say this
feels crappy.
Is this actually crappy?
Odds are it's actually crappy.
And now you can get out of yourhead and stop trying to
convince yourself that it reallyis great.
But for some reason you're justa Debbie Downer and you're
(45:33):
hyper-focused on it beingterrible, because that's usually
not the case.
Mat Patterson (45:36):
There's usually a light somewhere ahead if you
can get your head up and have alook for it.
This is just so hard, so true.
Sarah Caminiti (45:44):
That does bring me to something that we don't
have the time that I wanted totalk about, but community.
You were one of the key peopleto have conversations with Sarah
Hatter about why we don't havea space for CX people to get to
(46:06):
know one another and learn fromone another, and you were making
your blog and is that correct?
And she read your blog.
Mat Patterson (46:14):
I read her blog.
Sarah Caminiti (46:15):
Or was it my first?
Yeah, you read her blog.
That's what it was.
That's what it was, and then,so Elevate came to be because of
it, and that's pretty cool.
Mat Patterson (46:30):
Yeah, a long time ago, and I think I was yes, I
had just early days at CampaignMonitor.
It was a very tiny company.
I was the support Sarah was thesupport for the tech company
she was working for at the time,which she doesn't like to talk
about the name of and so I won't, but we, yes, I think she,
(46:56):
certainly the two companies kneweach other.
There were some interactions.
We were kind of coming up atthe same time.
I had used her product, theircompany had used Campaign
Monitor as well, and so therewas that interaction and I think
we had had some supportinteractions in that way.
And then I knew of her alsobecause of the blog, and so I
think at some point I just kindof said like it would be good to
(47:18):
talk to someone else, like Iliterally don't know anyone else
who does what I do.
This is how long ago it was, uh, and then we managed to meet up
, yeah, in person in austin forsouth by southwest I think this
was maybe gary vaynerchuk waslike a, the key speaker there.
Sarah Caminiti (47:35):
Yeah, I don't even know who that is.
But now I'm going to go GoogleOne of the oldies.
Mat Patterson (47:40):
He was a big deal at the time, wouldn't
necessarily spend a lot of timeon him these days, but, yeah, so
we were there, we met up, I hadcoffee, I think Tony what's his
name from Zappos, who's nolonger with us walked past us
and we both were like, oh that's, you know, tony from Zappos.
(48:06):
This is how we knew we had foundthe right person, yeah, and so
we just had a good chat aboutlike, wouldn't it be great if
there was more of us, if wecould, like, talk about this
stuff more?
And then, you know, I went backto Australia and did nothing.
And then she went back towherever she was and did nothing
.
And then she went back to, uh,wherever she was and created a
support conference out ofnothing, um, and I started doing
talks there, yeah, long timeago, and out of that came what
(48:29):
is now elevate and out of thatalso support driven sort of
started from that same community.
And, uh, now literallythousands of people don't have
to be alone doing that job,which is, it's incredible,
incredible to think about howfar it's come in that time, and
I'm very thankful for it.
Sarah Caminiti (48:47):
You should be really proud of it too.
I mean just saying out loud hey, we both do the same thing and
it would be really cool if wecould talk about this more.
Wait, I wonder if there's otherpeople that are doing the same
thing and just kind of justtrusting your gut a little bit
and going out of your comfortzone a little bit and, uh,
(49:10):
seeing what happens when you tryand look at what happens.
Mat Patterson (49:15):
Yeah, that's been a bit of a pattern for me.
I think I can look back now.
I used to be a web designer.
When I was a web designer, Iwas like why are all the other
designers that are talking aboutthings are like freelancers or
they run design agencies and Iwas working in-house for
different companies.
Like I was the web designerinside the Australian Stock
Exchange and I was like I'mdoing a different job even
(49:35):
Australian Stock Exchange and Iwas like I'm doing a different
job even though we're both webdesigners.
I wish there was more people.
And I sort of just found someon the internet and like started
an email chain and we justtalked about like being an
internal web designer and whatthat was like.
And then I was in emailmarketing.
And then I sort of did the samething there with Justine Jordan
, who many people will know fromLitmus in those days, just
(50:00):
talking about what it was liketo do email marketing.
I think I met her actually atSouth by Southwest the same one,
yeah we just met in a bar andwe were like email marketing
people, and then we had a goodchat about that and we sort of
bought a domain name the nextday together, about to try and
start like an email marketingcommunity with less success, I
(50:22):
would say, than Sarah had, butstill, it was definitely a
pattern for me and it remains so.
So, yeah, absolutely, find yourcommunity and if it doesn't
exist, make your community, likethose people are out there.
You just got to be the firstone to take that one step and
you'll find your you knowequivalent of Sarah Hatter, who
can actually do it for you.
Sarah Caminiti (50:41):
It's true, it's true and really cool things
happen when you start to talk topeople that are in your space.
It's just the opportunities areendless.
And this is way far and beyondnetworking, which is so much
easier and more fun when it's ina community, because you're
actually seeing people from apersonal level, but uh, but just
(51:04):
ideas and brainstorming and andjust lifting each other up and
and yeah, because we feel painwith like it's not an easy
department to exist in, to spendall of your time in, and
knowing that the stress is notspecial to you.
(51:28):
Yeah, it's not personal.
At least for me, that was aweight.
Mat Patterson (51:31):
It's just the job , and you don't have to just
kind of hang out and absorb thatall yourself, especially if
you're a leader.
If you're a leader and you'retrying to figure out how to deal
with your team going throughall sorts of change and chaos,
like there are other people outthere who are just someone who
is six months ahead of you wouldbe so helpful to talk to.
(51:51):
That's all it takes.
You don't need to find like anabsolute veteran of the industry
, and that's why these communityevents are so good, and I know
you're going to be in Denver, Ithink soon as we speak, and in
London, where I will also be atElevate.
So there's lots ofopportunities out there.
Go and find one, find yourpeople.
It's very much worth it.
Sarah Caminiti (52:13):
It's so worth it .
It's so worth it.
So, Mat, on that incrediblywonderful note, love the little
plug for the conferences to getyour tickets for both Denver and
London If you haven't, andLondon's free, so no excuses.
My entire team, even folks fromAsia, are going to be coming
over for this one.
(52:33):
So it's going to be a part.
But I like to end all of theseepisodes, all of these moments
with wonderful guests, by takinga moment to ask you what era do
you find yourself in, or whatera do you see yourself moving
into in the future?
(52:53):
So, Mat, what's your era?
Mat Patterson (52:57):
I would say era for a start Sounds less like a
mistake.
What era am I in?
Oh, constantly in errors.
Sarah Caminiti (53:04):
Oh, that's very true.
Yeah, it does kind of roll up.
What era am I?
Mat Patterson (53:07):
in.
That's a good question.
I feel like I have been goingthrough a kind of recalculation
of, like, what is my job andwhat am I trying to do?
And that discussion that wejust had about like what is the
supportive actually for, I thinkhas come out of that process of
thinking through, like what isthe point of what I am doing?
(53:28):
Who am I trying to help?
And so it's maybe an era ofrefocusing, I guess, because
definitely some parts of thatare still the same as they were,
but some clarity has come tolike what value am I adding
there?
Which parts of the job do Ienjoy doing?
Which parts can I maybe findsomeone else to help with and
(53:52):
which parts, as always, justsuck it up because it has to get
done.
You can't always avoid them,but the awareness of that, and
so, yes, refocusing clarity, Ithink that's where I am right
now.
We'll see where that ends up.
Sarah Caminiti (54:15):
That's a good.
That think is so important toacknowledge clarity and to
acknowledge the need to reflectand refocus and think about
delegation and take some of theownership off of your shoulders,
(54:35):
and I think many of us couldbenefit from having a moment of
do I need to do this or is theresomeone else that could learn
from this, could grow from this,could help me with this?
There we are asking for helpagain.
Could help me with this?
(55:01):
There we are asking for helpagain.
But we support folk like to wearall the hats.
We like to do it all and keepasking if anyone else needs
anything else while we're doingit all with all of the hats and
holding like 18 coat racks withother hats on them, and it's
empowering to be able to saythis is where I want to focus my
(55:23):
attention, because I value mytime, and then making it happen.
So that's a really great era tofind yourself in, Mat, and I'm
excited for you and I'm excitedfor the supportive podcast and I
just it's's such an informativespace and and it's fun to
listen to and you're a greathost and I'm just really excited
(55:45):
to see, to see all the episodesthat are to come.
Mat Patterson (55:48):
Thank you very much.
Appreciate it, appreciate yourtime today.
Sarah Caminiti (55:51):
Thank you.
Thank you for your time.
I'm going to go to bed becauseit's very late in my time, but I
hope that you enjoy yourWednesday and yeah, thank you,
thank you.
Thank you so much for tuninginto another episode of Epochal
Growth.
It has been so much fun to haveMat Patterson share his wisdom
on customer service andleadership.
(56:11):
Remember, small things ignitechange and you're capable of so
much more than you realize.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe,
leave a review and share it withothers who are on their own
journey of growth.
I'm Sarah Caminiti and I hopeyou have a great day Until next
time.
Welcome to Epochal Growth, the podcast
where we explore the powerfulintersection of leadership and
customer experience to drivemeaningful change.
I'm your host, Sarah Caminiti,and I'm so happy that you're
here Today.
We're diving into anothertransformative conversation, but
before we get started, I'd lovefor you to take a moment to
follow Epochal Growth whereveryou listen to podcasts, share
(00:29):
this with your network and, ifyou value these episodes and
these discussions as wecelebrate these leaders, please
leave a review.
It helps others discover theshow and it really fuels our
growth.
Today I am so excited toannounce Mat Patterson, the
customer service content lead atHelp Scout, is here to chat
with us.
Mat is an expert in elevatingcustomer service strategies and
(00:49):
today we're going to explore theinsights that can reshape how
we approach the ever-evolvingworld of customer support.
Stick around, because thisepisode is packed with
actionable key takeaways you'renot going to want to miss.
Mat Patterson (01:02):
Hello, I am Mat Patterson.
Here just south of Sydney inAustralia, I work for Help Scout
, where I am, I guess, acustomer service educator maybe
is how I say it Basicallytalking about customer service
and how we can do it better,especially online.
Sarah Caminiti (01:21):
I love that and I'm so, so happy that you're
here, Mat.
You didn't even mention yourpodcast, which you totally
should have name dropped.
Mat is the host of thesupportive podcast that has so
many wonderful gems within it.
You just started it recentlyand I'm just really excited to
record a conversation of ustalking about things that we
(01:44):
could talk about for days anddays and days.
I mean, you built an entirecareer off of talking about
customer support and how we canthink about it differently.
Do it better, give it a littlebit more respect and space to
shine, and thank you for findingsome time in your next day,
(02:08):
since you're in Australia, tohang out with me over here.
Mat Patterson (02:11):
Thank you for having me.
It's exciting to talk about and, as you say, I have talked
about customer support a lotover the last eight years.
Eight years I've been at HelpScout, so that's eight years of
talking about the doing ofsupport, and then before that I
spent nearly 10 years running asupport team at Campaign Monitor
in Australia.
So that's a long time.
(02:32):
That's a long time.
That's a lot of customers talkto in that time.
Sarah Caminiti (02:36):
Well, yeah, for sure, man, I didn't realize that
you were at Help Scout foreight years, that's so then I
have to ask, like, if you arecreating content, you're
educating, you're learning aboutthe nuances of support as
support has evolved over thesepast eight years?
I mean, you even were doingthis during COVID, and support
(02:57):
was like kind of flipped on itshead during COVID, its head
during COVID.
What have you taken away aslike what's something you want
to keep talking about over andover again and what's?
Mat Patterson (03:10):
something that's like totally changed Customer
support.
I mean I've said this a fewtimes.
I think it's a reallyinteresting field in that in
some ways it never changes right.
You can go right back and Ijust talked about this on the
Supportive podcast which youshould download, um.
But the very first customerservice complaint, which a lot
of people will know about, theuh copper trader a and a seer
(03:35):
who in his house in ancientmesopotamia had that tablet of a
complaint letter.
He actually had a whole pile ofcomplaint letters from other
customers as well, just saying,like you said you were going to
sell me this thing, I didn'tlike it, it's not great quality,
I'm not happy, I want my moneyback.
And I mean, that's 4,000 years.
That's not too different thanwhat we do today, is it?
(03:57):
So in some ways it's absolutelythe same thing, and it's just
the way in which things aredelivered, the way in which the
service can be delivered, thatchanges over time.
But in other ways, we're rightnow in the middle of a moment
where maybe things are going tochange.
Maybe there will be technologywhich can not only assist you to
talk to your customers and toreach out to them in different
(04:17):
ways and in different mediums,but that we'll be able to
directly help customers, maybe,maybe with artificial
intelligence, of course.
So I'm sure we will probablyget into that.
That's certainly the topic ofthe year at every support
conversation that I have.
Sarah Caminiti (04:32):
No, it's true, it's when I was reflecting on
this, actually, because Ilistened to your episode about
self-service and I haverecommended that to every single
person that I can find, becauseyou unlock like the actual key
pieces to building and likesetting yourself up to build.
(04:52):
Eventually, if you're not evenready to build a self-service
space and do it well and don'tyou know, cut corners, which you
really can't if you're going toactually be successful having a
space, that's self-service.
But with AI, I've realizedprobably about half of my
episodes of Epochal Growth.
(05:14):
The conversations just kind ofnaturally turned into a
conversation about AI, aconversation about AI.
And it's so interesting becauseso many leaders within the
customer support space orcustomer experience space and I
mean I'm talking to people likeover at Zapier or people that
(05:35):
are running like call centersare so thoughtful about AI and I
love seeing how committed allof these leaders are to not
going the shiny toy route andreally, really taking the care
(05:58):
and the time to understand thebenefits and also the negatives
about adding this to your space.
And that's so different thanwhat we see on spaces like
LinkedIn, where there's so muchnoise about AI, and it's so
(06:22):
different from the reality ofthe people that are actually
leading the teams that have toimplement it, and what are you
seeing?
I mean, you're working for ahelp desk that has to think, add
, experiment with AI so thatother support leaders can go
about AI in the correct way.
(06:44):
What kind of conversations areyou having about AI within a
help desk company?
Mat Patterson (06:52):
Yeah, we're having lots of conversations.
I think everybody's havingthese conversations.
Maybe to take a step back for aminute, it's interesting to me
that on LinkedIn, in the worldin general, customer service
every time there is a newtechnology, customer service is
often where we could use this tolike replace customer service.
(07:12):
It's nearly always at the frontof the line for things that
maybe we could stop spendingmoney on, which is suggestive,
maybe, of how people value thosethings.
But I think maybe theinteresting thing about AI and
customer service is that as westart to try and implement it
and HelpScout does have AIfeatures in the product with
(07:34):
more to come, as does most ofthe competitors out there as
well but as we start to try andimplement them, you realize that
what our support team does isnot something that AI can do.
At least, it can't do all of it.
There is just enormous numbersof things that the support team
does which are really we callsupport, but really like it's a
(07:56):
sort of a form of sales.
It's a sort of sometimes it'ssort of therapy for a customer,
sometimes it is marketing.
We're doing all sorts of thingsin support teams that you
wouldn't want an AI to try anddo.
I think how we imagine that AIis able to do things is well,
there's a question and there'san answer, and the AI can match
(08:17):
that up, which it can do.
It does a pretty good job of ifthere is a very specific
question with a specific answer.
It's good at finding those andthen rewording them in different
ways and that conversationalway of accessing essentially a
knowledge base and there isdefinitely a part of your
support team that's what they'redoing.
They're finding the question,they're matching it to an answer
that they already have in theirhead or in their knowledge base
(08:38):
or in their internaldocumentation, and then they're
explaining it to that customer.
Some part of that the AI will beable to help with or even do in
some cases, and certainlydifferent types of businesses
might find that easier ifthere's more repetition.
I think internally at HelpScout, the kind of questions
we're getting are often socomplicated and have so many
(08:59):
different pieces that there isno single answer.
You can't point anyone to aknowledge base that answers all
of the parts of their questionor, if it does, you still want
to interpret that answer in away that makes sense for their
context, because that's whatgood service is it's adapting it
to this person and this contextand what they're actually
trying to do, which is often notwhat they actually asked to do,
and all of the complexity arethere and we're just going to
(09:23):
find out.
Oh, actually, support is a lotmore than we thought it was once
we try to replace parts of itwith artificial intelligence.
Sarah Caminiti (09:31):
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping.
You're starting to see littlebits of it, such an increase in
just visibility of people thatare talking about the realities
of leading or building or justbeing in a support role and what
(09:57):
that career trajectory actuallylooks like and the skills that
are required in order to do thiswell, and I don't think that,
even if everybody was talkingabout it, I don't think that
even if everybody was talkingabout it, I don't think that
people were really in the moodto listen.
And I think, with AI, it's beenhighlighting all of these things
that we've been doing for yearsand years and years and years
and years that no one wouldreally pay any attention to.
(10:19):
But now that they're showing itoff as this incredible thing
that these AI tools can provideto your company that you've
never seen before, now it's likewait a second, like I do that.
I've been doing that, we talkabout that, I brought that to
you and it's changing theconversation slowly,
(10:45):
incrementally, but I agree, Ithink it could provide a little
bit more credibility and respectto a space that is a very
taxing and it is a profession.
It is a profession that youhave to be a specific type of
(11:07):
person to thrive in, absolutelyyou do.
Mat Patterson (11:09):
You know what I wish people on LinkedIn would do
, and this is not going tohappen, because the reason that
I think one of the reasons thatcustomer service is the one that
gets thrown at the well, whydon't we use AI for that?
It's because the people who aredeciding to build these AI tools
and the people who are excitedabout them at high levels in
company are not the ones who aredoing the support, so they
(11:31):
don't really understand what thejob is, and so their mental
model of what that part of thebusiness is doing is very
limited and it seems to match upvery nicely with what AI can do
.
But I would like to see andmaybe I should just do this is
start talking about how we'rereplacing executive level
managers with an AI tool to, youknow, arbitrarily make
decisions about things, becauseit feels like to me and
(11:53):
certainly in my experience, andno shade to anyone at Help Scout
this is, I'm thinking more ofprevious jobs.
There are definitely somepeople I could have replaced
with an AI that just randomlychose what to do on any given
week.
I could have replaced with anAI that just randomly chose what
to do on any given week and wewould have the same result.
Sarah Caminiti (12:09):
Yeah, no, I think that's a really good idea.
It could be a fun experiment tojust do some hypotheticals of
what if we replace marketingwith AI.
What would that look like?
What if we did this?
And the end result in most ofthem will be the same end result
that it is with.
Customer support in this can dosome really cool things, but it
(12:32):
cannot replace a person who wasskilled in this space.
Mat Patterson (12:36):
No, and by its very nature, because of the way
that generative AI works, itwill always tend towards
mediocrity, because it isabsorbing everything that's out
there and then it's generating akind of medium version of that.
It's never going to be the onethat does something interesting.
I think it will inspire peopleto do interesting things, but by
itself it's always going to bejust sort of mediocre, and maybe
(12:59):
the best result is that itraises the bar in customer
service of like.
Instead of really terriblehuman-powered support, we get
marginally better AI-poweredsupport across the entire set of
companies in the world, butcertainly most of the people
(13:19):
that we serve at HelpScout and,I think, most of the people
listening to this right now, youalready want to be better than
mediocre, and you probablyalready are, and so the AI will
be used in different ways there.
It'll be used to try andimprove the leverage that a
person has on the work that theydo, and so I suspect that's
(13:40):
where we'll end up.
But we have to go through thisperiod now of what if we just
tried it everywhere foreverything until we figure it
out?
Sarah Caminiti (13:47):
Yep, yep, it'll be a.
It'll be an interesting journey, but I think that the folks
that have made this a career allknow deep down, even if things
get scary, even if it's justdoomsday out there with the way
companies are behaving, thosecompanies will realize their
mistakes and you won't want togo back and work for them,
(14:11):
probably.
But there will be other spacesthat realized what a special
opportunity high quality supportprofessionals provide to a
company, and that is where youwill shine.
This is just a moment to getyou there and we just kind of
(14:31):
got to hang tight.
Mat Patterson (14:33):
Yeah, we've got to hang in there.
We go through the weird hypecycle that we're in and then
we'll come out the other sideand it will become a little bit
clearer.
Hey, this is where these newtools were useful and they could
amplify some of the skills thatwe had and they could help us
deliver the type of service thatwe wanted to deliver to more
customers or across more timezones, or we could do it in a
(14:54):
way that the self-service is anicer experience for them.
I think we'll figure that out,and in between, we're probably
all, as customers, going to haveto suffer through some
companies trying to do thingsthat AI, it turns out, is not
that good at.
Sarah Caminiti (15:08):
I mean, I think we've been suffering through
that now in varying degrees forquite some time.
I know, if I call manydifferent places, I mean, first
problem is that I'm calling themin the first place, where I
could just be hopefully findingout an answer much more easily
online.
But yeah, and then you sufferthrough the yelling at the phone
(15:30):
.
Let me speak to arepresentative.
To stop yourself from goingthrough nine different rounds of
press seven, press five, pressfour the menu changed nothing.
You know before works and nowyou have to start fresh.
And then it just hangs up onyou.
Mat Patterson (15:46):
Yeah, all these things are were just pretty
representative of how thecompany really valued the
service experience, and so it'snot going to magically make
those companies care about goodservice, right?
If they had already decidedit's not really worth investing
money into providing more peopleso that we can deal with the
(16:06):
unexpected, unexpected volume ofcalls which seems to be every
day, every day, then they're notgoing to do that with AI either
.
They'll use the cheapest optionthere and they won't use the
most effective tools.
They won't pay extra to get theAI that they can tweak to be
more performative for theirparticular setup.
They'll just use whatevergeneric, cheap thing they can
(16:28):
and they'll provide generic,cheap service, like they already
were doing.
It would just cost them lessmoney.
But there will be opportunitiesfor other companies who really
want to provide good service andwho maybe couldn't afford it
before.
I think there is potential thatAI could really help them serve
more customers with fewerpeople than they would have had
(16:48):
to have before.
So there will be opportunitiesand companies will come out of
that, I think, who are doingmore impressive things.
Sarah Caminiti (16:56):
I think so too.
I really like what you saidabout the value, because that is
something that I think aboutoften.
If you keep asking why forcertain things, you usually end
up figuring out the value thatthe other person puts into
either you or a role or a taskor a project or whatever it is,
(17:16):
and it paints such a clearpicture.
And once you start thinkingabout things in that way of okay
, this keeps happening.
I've done it all thesedifferent ways.
It's always unsuccessful.
Why is this happening?
What does this mean?
And just keep going.
You'll find out.
Because they don't value this,there's no value for them here.
(17:41):
And then you have to startthinking about what are your
values and how do you show thatyou value something?
And do your values align and isthis a space that you want to
continue to be a part of?
And I think a lot of people inthis field are having these
(18:04):
moments, these exciting moments,where they're giving themselves
the space to say does this,does this really have to be
where I am?
And while the job market isnuts and terrible and just
horrible, horrible, I think thatthere could be so much
(18:27):
opportunity from all thesefrustrations and sadness and
doubt and anger to makesomething so much better.
Whatever that is, who knows,but it's just.
It's been really cool to seepeople allowing themselves to
think about things, and I haveto wonder.
(18:51):
Like Mat, you found yourself ina career where you are able to
share what you've learned, butalso be the advocate and the
voice to a lot of people thatmay not know how to articulate
things.
What have you really lovedabout getting to shine light on
(19:16):
on this career for so, for solong?
Mat Patterson (19:20):
Yes, well, okay, a couple of things.
I think, coming from running asupport team before, one of the
things I really enjoyed aboutcoming here was I get to do the
bits of running a team that Ireally loved the most, which was
identifying, you know, whatpeople want to get better at and
helping them improve theirskills and helping people figure
out what it is that they wantto do.
(19:41):
So I can do that sort of at alarger scale at Help Scout,
where I'm not responsible then,for also for scheduling their
holidays and telling people thatthey have to work on Saturday
or whatever.
And telling people that theyhave to work on Saturday or
whatever the least fun parts ofpeople management.
So I do enjoy that and I enjoyhelping people think about the
(20:03):
job that they're doing.
I think if I had to describe theSupportive, which is a
newsletter and which is apodcast and which is articles on
the website and videos onYouTube, which I do since that
is my job, I do have to describeit it would be that it would be
thinking, helping people thinkthrough their own jobs.
So we all work in this industryand we're all trying to do
(20:26):
something and it's easy to justdo the job, especially in
support, it's such a queue-based, like there is always more to
do.
You never get to the end andhave that time to look up and
think where am I going here?
What am I doing?
Do I want to be doing thesesame things that I was, or
should we be doing thingsdifferently?
Like, you just don't often getthat space, and so I am in a
(20:46):
position where I can have thatspace and can help people to
maybe have a perspective ontheir work, on the industry, on
the career that they have, andgive them a bit of a framework
for them to think through theirown things and to come to their
own decisions.
So that's probably, I think,what the supportive really is
for ultimately is can we thinkabout what this is that we're
(21:09):
doing, and what do we care aboutand what do we value and what
can we make better?
And sometimes it means helpingpeople figure out.
This is not for me and actuallyI'm better suited to do this
other thing and I can transferthose skills out to a different
role, which I would love to seemore people coming out of
support into, for example,executive leadership roles.
I think that would improve theworld immeasurably.
(21:31):
Executive leadership roles.
Sarah Caminiti (21:32):
I think that would improve the world
immeasurably.
I agree, oh my gosh, I agree somuch, and what a cool
opportunity to, instead oftaking this content that you are
producing for a help deskcompany and have it be
operationally focused only andhave it be very like regimented
(21:53):
in the data or selling piecesabout Help Scout, that you
instead found a way to makesomething that is educational
and conversation but also iscelebratory and honest and
(22:17):
connecting to the individualsthat are actually working in the
queue and not just the peoplethat think that they understand
support.
That's really cool.
Mat Patterson (22:29):
It is cool and I think a lot of the credit for
that goes to the people whostarted Help Scout, because the
reason that I can do this hereand that I am not having to
constantly sell the product HelpScout which you definitely
should sign up to, but I don'thave to do that in the content
all the time because the peoplewho started Help Scout Nick and
(22:50):
Denny and Jared the three ofthem always cared about good
service and they always wantedto be helpful to their customers
, and so they're willing tospend money to be helpful and
informative and useful in a waythat doesn't directly drive
business.
I mean, in the long term,obviously we hope that people
try HelpScout because they likethe way that we talk about
(23:12):
customer service and they thinkthat they align with the values
that we have.
But that value of helpfulnessmeans, yeah, we can be helpful
and useful without having tomonetize everything.
Everything doesn't have to bedriving the business, it can
just be helpful, because wethink being helpful is important
and we would like our businessto reflect that in all of its
(23:34):
aspects, so in the marketing,but also our own support team,
who are incredibly helpful evenwhen they're not directly
answering a question about theproduct and the sales people.
The sales approach of help scoutis also quite different than
some sales organizations thatI've worked with in the past.
I would say there's a differentvibe there.
It is more helpful and it'sokay to say I don't think this
(23:55):
suits you.
Actually I think you'd bebetter off somewhere else, like
that's okay Because that's acore Help Scout value.
So you know, shout out to HelpScout the company for allowing
it.
Sarah Caminiti (24:06):
That's very cool , and that's cool that it's
something that's continuedbecause those dreams of how you
want your business to run.
I think we have all seenfounders that go into running a
company with the best ofintentions and they want to keep
the culture, the dream culture,for as long as they possibly
(24:28):
can.
And then the reality of runninga business kind of starts to
creep in, or maybe they maybeshouldn't be the CEO of
something and they just continueto stay there because they
don't really know what elseneeds to happen and in doing so,
that culture just can no longersurvive.
(24:49):
And so to see that founderscame into this space knowing
that they wanted to provide anopportunity for support teams to
thrive but also feel heard andvalued, and then create a
company where everybody in thecompany also feels heard and
valued and safe, to be honestwith people, which ultimately
(25:11):
provides the best support,because you're building trust
and a relationship with thesepeople, whether you talk to them
once or a hundred times, butthat they stuck with it.
Mat Patterson (25:23):
Yeah, and that's not easy to do, I think, every
company.
There's so many pressures,especially when you have
investors and you need to growthe business, and it really
takes somebody who genuinelybelieves this is important,
especially when you haveinvestors and you need to grow
the business, and it reallytakes somebody who genuinely
believes this is importantbecause they're going to.
Really the only time thatvalues Mat is when you don't do
something that would beotherwise good for the finances
(25:46):
of the business.
Right, if you make a decisionlike this probably would, in the
short term, improve the metrics, make that graph go up and to
the right, but it sort ofconflicts with our core value
and you decide to actually stickwith the core value.
Well then, yeah, you've shown,yes, we do believe this and we
are willing to invest in it,even at some cost, at least in
the short term, and that is rare, I would say.
Sarah Caminiti (26:10):
Especially if you have investors.
So hard rare, I would say,especially if you have investors
.
But, like your actions actuallyspeaking louder than your words
is what we say to our kids overand over again.
It's something that we don'tthink that is really going to
carry the weight that it does,but all of those little things
that you really want to try toinstill in your kids, that your
(26:33):
parents did in you or yourteachers, they actually do Mat
and it does continue to holdthat weight.
And in a world where there's somany options of the same thing,
at the end of it, for a lot ofof these companies, the biggest
differentiator is values, andwhether or not they're staying
(26:57):
true to what they're saying isimportant to them it is and we
should.
Mat Patterson (27:04):
I think we should also applaud the people that in
the companies that make thosemistakes and fall off the track,
maybe go off on a side path andthen figure out oh, we've gone
the wrong way, and we come backto that value Because I think
that happens in every businessas well and the willingness to
allow people to question yourbehaviors and to say is this
actually aligned with what wesay, we believe, and have that
(27:27):
discussion.
That's probably what Mat most ofall, because you're always
going to make mistakes we all do.
We do it corporately as well,but you, yeah, you're right,
it's so easy to lose thatculture and I've been through
that before.
A few different people come in,a few different leaders come in
.
They bring their own historiesand backgrounds not necessarily
a bad culture, just a differentculture and it's so easily
(27:47):
spreads through a bunch ofdecisions, especially if they
end up hiring some othermanagers.
So it can be very tricky.
I'm glad I don't do that job.
I quite like my particularlevel of involvement, but I'm
glad that some people can do itand that they can keep things
aligned.
Sarah Caminiti (28:06):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Do you ever miss running teams?
Mat Patterson (28:13):
I don't think I miss running a team.
I quite enjoy now the creativeaspects and the ability to
control what I create, which,when you're running a team, you
can also be quite creative, butyou're so reliant on a bunch of
other people's input and you'realso trying to keep different
groups of people happy in a way,and you're also trying to keep
(28:33):
different groups of people happyin a way that I don't have to
do in this particular role.
So I don't miss that.
I do miss sometimes thatone-on-one element of you know I
hired this person and thenseeing them go on to new roles
and to higher levels and thatsort of thing, like I really
enjoyed that part of it andthat's something I do miss.
Sarah Caminiti (28:54):
That's fair.
I mean you're doing that,though in a way not one-on-one,
but in more of a broader senseof of helping others kind of see
their potential.
Um, but it must be aninteresting space to find
yourself in for almost a decadewhere you're talking about
support.
You understand support.
(29:15):
I mean it's like it's in yourblood.
I mean once you built a supportteam.
You're kind of stuck in thatheadspace for life, whether you
like it or not.
But, uh, but you haven'tactually been in the queue and
but you're surrounded by thequeue.
You're surrounded by all of thequeues because you work for a
(29:38):
company that houses a queue andthat must be a very strange
thing every now and then to likethink about how you got to
where you are.
Mat Patterson (29:50):
Yeah, I will.
I think one of the things Ienjoy about Help Scout's
approach is that everybody doesdo some work in the queue.
So we have regular power hourswhere we you're like assigned
and this is your hour, you'regoing to get in there and do
some support, and a lot ofpeople that might be their only
opportunity.
That, and when we do wholecompany retreats, everyone's
(30:12):
assigned some times and be like,yeah, you're doing support in
this time, which is excellent.
Having been on the other end ofthat in a previous job, where
the whole company's in the poolexcept for the support team who
are in a meeting room justbanging out tickets, I really
appreciate that, and so I alwaystry and get in there and we
have a little friendlycompetition Some of us
non-support people about who cando the most support
(30:34):
conversations on a retreat, andI think I'm currently I'm on
about a four-year streak, so I'mdoing okay.
My number one competitor who wasnot from a support background.
So impressive work, eli, youknow who you are.
He has changed.
He's left Help Scout now, soit'll just be Nick the CEO.
He comes for me every year, butI've got him.
(30:57):
You know, when I was a campaignmonitor, I think at one point I
went and looked how manyconversations have I actually
done and it was well over 50,000.
So I was like you know thatstuff is all still in there,
even though I'm not a help scoutproduct expert in the way that
I was at campaign monitor.
Sarah Caminiti (31:21):
That's for sure.
I understand that so well.
It is, uh, it's like once youreach a certain level of having
been in support for so long andyou get in the zone when you're
answering those tickets, youcould just fly, you fly and you
don't even realize that you'relike 40 deep and it's only been
like 35 minutes and you don'tremember anything that you have
sent.
But they were all wonderfullyconstructed answers and the
(31:45):
customers were so happy.
But you just kind of becomethis machine.
Mat Patterson (31:50):
Yeah, it does become a sort of instinctual in
a way, and maybe the reason thatI can do what I do now, I think
, is the combination of all ofthat background and the ability
to actually see it and explainit, because I think some people
can do it but could never tellanyone else how they do it, and
that is harder to do.
(32:10):
And so I've just been fortunateto have enough, have the
background and then also havethe interest in the
communication aspect of it andthe external communication, to
be able to like think about whatis actually happening when I'm
in that state and how to maybehelp other people get there.
It's fun to do.
(32:35):
I mean, probably shouldn't tellpeople, but there's certainly
been times in my career insupport where it's late at night
and you're coming back on thetrain from an after work
function, probably not in anideal condition to be doing
support, but still like if Idon't do it now I am going to
have to do it tomorrow morning,so might as well try and help
them.
If you have enough of abackground, you can get away
(32:55):
with it.
I mean I wouldn't recommend it.
Sarah Caminiti (32:58):
I'm not probably going to write it, but you can
do it I mean I definitely have.
Mat Patterson (33:00):
It can be done.
Sarah Caminiti (33:01):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I've been there too.
It is that mindset of why not,I'll just do it now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it reallycan wait until tomorrow.
Like it's fine, they willsurvive.
Everyone will be thriving intheir own special way.
Mat Patterson (33:22):
But if you do want to learn how to do support
and you don't mind a bit of painbeing the first support person,
you have no other option otherthan to figure out every single
question.
I mean, that is a way to reallydeeply learn, uh, the company
and the product and yourcustomers.
But uh, oh, it's a, it's a realin the deep end kind of
situation, though it is, butit's also a really cool time to
(33:49):
realize your skills.
Sarah Caminiti (33:51):
It was, I remember, when I was the first
support person in a company andthey'd been around for a while.
They'd been doing it on theirown and the support queue was so
, so long.
There were so many messages inthere.
They were doing their best butno one was in, no one was a
support person.
(34:11):
And I was in there a week.
I knew nothing about theproduct zip, like not an
industry that I still.
I really don't know much aboutit.
But I was able to just flythrough and I cleared the queue
and, uh, and it was like holycrap, okay, I'm a week into this
thing and I have no idea reallywhat I'm talking about, but I'm
(34:35):
able to figure it out.
And after you do that and yousurvive it and you sleep harder
than you ever have in your life,you come out of it and it's
like, okay, now I can make agame plan because I don't doubt
my ability to do thefoundational stuff.
I know that.
That's fine.
Mat Patterson (34:56):
And I think maybe something that will come out of
this whole AI period is peoplerealizing the skills that they
have, that they maybe were notaware of what they were actually
doing, and the amount of nuanceand background and emotional
energy that goes into supportthat is not visible really to
anyone outside of it andsometimes not even aware you're
(35:17):
not even aware of it yourselfabout how much thinking goes
into what answer comes out, eventhough sometimes the answers
look quite similar to other ones, but there's often a lot of
decisions being made in thebackground.
Sarah Caminiti (35:31):
Oh, that's such a great thing to bring up, Mat,
because it's one of the areasthat I learned when I started
teaching people how to dosupport especially people that
were not native English speakershow to do support, the nuances
and the structure of your replythat was my main focus for a
(35:55):
six-week onboarding.
Before you were able to talk toa customer, I wanted you to be
able to understand how toconstruct a reply, and we would
just go back and forth withiterations of it and I would say
like okay, I tweaked this alittle bit.
Can you see why this isdifferent?
What are you getting from it?
And figuring out where to addinformation, where to throw in
(36:19):
articles to get them to feelconfident, to continue to do
things on their own, where youneed to explain things and how
that varies from person toperson, and you have to grasp
this based on how panicked theyseem in their email that they
send over to you, because youusually have never talked to
them before Like that is a, thatis a whole.
(36:41):
That is a gift that you developover time.
Mat Patterson (36:44):
Yeah, and you can use that.
My wife before.
Before I was replaced with AI,this used to be one of my jobs
in the time.
Yeah, and you can use that, mywife.
Before I was replaced with AI,this used to be one of my jobs
in the home, which was to helpmy wife write emails, like
business emails, when she wantsto explain something, you know,
something which is a little bitemotionally fraught or risky,
(37:05):
Like how do I word this?
It's just so ingrained afteryears and years of like
delicately trying to move peopletowards the thing that they
need to do.
That is a good skill and it'svery transferable to other areas
.
Sarah Caminiti (37:20):
So transferable it is and it's not an obvious
one that you would think to leaninto and to understand where it
fits into job descriptions andhow you could use it.
But no, being able to just likeit's almost like a word vomit
(37:42):
too.
When you're doing it Like youdon't even realize that you're
sending out such a thoughtfulresponse and whatever email
thing outside of the queue thatyou're doing, it just comes and
uh, and it's true I love how youphrase that that you're like
you're inching people towardssomething, because that's all
we're doing.
(38:03):
We're trying to get people tosee it and maybe on your.
Mat Patterson (38:08):
If you're applying for a job, don't put
word vomit on there.
That's probably not going tohelp, but come on that would be
a fun thing.
You know in the skills box thatsometimes you have to fill out
three out of five on word vomitskill.
I mean, that sounds like a gooddescription of chat GPT, to be
honest.
Sarah Caminiti (38:30):
It is most of the time.
Yeah, it's a word.
Yeah, I think people shouldlike.
Mat Patterson (38:35):
this is a great time.
If you're in support right nowand you're thinking about like
what's, what's the job going tobe in a year or two years?
Where are we going to end up?
It's a great time to kind of doan audit of yourself and what
you are good at and what supporthas made you good at, and which
parts of that you enjoy andwhich parts you don't enjoy,
because it might be that thejobs that are out there will
(38:57):
look different than they do now.
And being kind of self-aware inthat way about where you are
now, where you want to get toand what you might like to do,
you can just make betterdecisions if you know which
direction you would rather gobefore you get pushed one way or
another.
This is the time to be thinkingabout it.
So I think that's a greataction item for people.
(39:19):
Even if you're happy in yourjob right now, because we just
don't know, it's unclear whetherthat job will still be there in
the same shape.
I think support jobs willabsolutely still be there, but
they just might look a bitdifferent.
Sarah Caminiti (39:32):
I think that it is such an important thing for
people to really understand.
I, in a roundabout way, definedmy core values and kind of
started I tied it to businesssuccess so that I could really
start to see the correlationbetween the things that I know
to be true and what value theybring to a business.
(39:56):
And doing so allowed me to beso much more comfortable and
confident and articulate in whatI know to be true and the way
that I go about doing it and theway things are moving with AI
folks that are loving their job,that work for a great company
(40:17):
that wants to include them inconversations about AI or about
the changes that are coming withwith the company.
More so than ever, this is yourtime to understand how you can
build something like actuallytake ownership for what allows
(40:39):
you to do your job in the bestway and what makes you super
excited.
And there could be so manyopportunities in the future
sooner probably rather thanlater where you have a support
team, that you've got folks thatare handling, leaning more with
the, with like the CSMs andworking with them, and then
(41:01):
you've got the others that arereally digitally focused.
And what is digitally focused?
Do you have a knowledge base?
Okay, do you love writing?
Do you have a knowledge base?
Okay, do you love writing?
Do you love being able to breakthings down?
Like all of those little thingsare going to be able to, like,
really be built because AI istaking care of the analytics, or
the AI is taking care of, like,understanding what knowledge
(41:26):
bases need to be, you know,revised, or helping you with
maintenance, and all of thatbrain space is going to be freed
up so that you can actuallypause and grow.
Mat Patterson (41:40):
This is the moment to be thinking about that
sort of thing, and I think wewould much rather have a support
person, for example, who is incharge of how do we tweak the
prompt on this AI tool to serveour customers better.
You don't want that to be leftin the hands of an engineer who
maybe does not care aboutcustomer service at all.
I mean, some of them definitelydo and if you're lucky, you
(42:03):
work with some of those and theycan help you.
But better to have supportpeople driving what service
looks like in the future than tohave the technology people
doing it.
Sarah Caminiti (42:14):
And the best way that you can do that is to feel
confident in what it is thatyou're sharing, so that you can
go and insert yourself intoconversations that you may not
even be invited to, but showthat there is value in what you
have to say.
You have a lot of data thatbacks up what it is that you're
saying, and you've got the proofin the pudding for the way that
(42:37):
you approach knowledge basesand how they change the way that
the customers interact with you.
All of those little things youhave to give yourself time to
look at and think about, andthink about what it means for
business goals.
Mat Patterson (42:53):
So how are they going to do that Person who is
right now listening, thinkingabout that?
How are they going to find thattime?
Sarah Caminiti (43:03):
That's a great question, because Now it's my.
Yeah, I like it.
I like it.
I mean, when I was like in thethick of it, I didn't have time.
I didn't even have time to likecomb my hair half the time,
because you're just so in it,and I think that's why it took
me so long to really immersemyself in the CX community.
So that is actually what Iwould recommend you do is, when
(43:28):
you're in the weeds, when youhave no idea how to find space,
go to a CX community, likeelevate CX, and pose a question
in I need help, I need help.
(43:50):
Or reach out to somebody onLinkedIn and use half of your
lunch hour that you probablynever break, never take, but but
please take it and, uh, have acoffee chat with someone that,
like Mat or like me, that wouldbe happy to break it down with
you and understand if there'spossibilities for you to find a
more efficient way to dosomething so you can allow
yourself that time to breathe.
(44:12):
Because that's one of thebiggest things I regret and I
wish.
I wish I could have realizedthat asking for help is such a
vulnerable moment, but theoutcome is just a game changer.
Mat Patterson (44:34):
Isn't that strange that we're all in
support and we are so happy tohelp people and also so bad at
asking for help?
We're like I know I wouldalways be happy to help somebody
, but I also feel terrible aboutasking for help and it's a.
It's a very dumb thing that ourbrains do to us, and you should
(44:55):
feel okay about just saying youknow what?
I don't have the answers.
I would like some help.
I just, or even just sometimesI want someone to talk to me so
that I can figure out the answermyself, but I just need to be
able to say it out loud tosomebody.
Sarah Caminiti (45:11):
Yep, or just be validated, like just say this
feels crappy.
Is this actually crappy?
Odds are it's actually crappy.
And now you can get out of yourhead and stop trying to
convince yourself that it reallyis great.
But for some reason you're justa Debbie Downer and you're
(45:33):
hyper-focused on it beingterrible, because that's usually
not the case.
Mat Patterson (45:36):
There's usually a light somewhere ahead if you
can get your head up and have alook for it.
This is just so hard, so true.
Sarah Caminiti (45:44):
That does bring me to something that we don't
have the time that I wanted totalk about, but community.
You were one of the key peopleto have conversations with Sarah
Hatter about why we don't havea space for CX people to get to
(46:06):
know one another and learn fromone another, and you were making
your blog and is that correct?
And she read your blog.
Mat Patterson (46:14):
I read her blog.
Sarah Caminiti (46:15):
Or was it my first?
Yeah, you read her blog.
That's what it was.
That's what it was, and then,so Elevate came to be because of
it, and that's pretty cool.
Mat Patterson (46:30):
Yeah, a long time ago, and I think I was yes, I
had just early days at CampaignMonitor.
It was a very tiny company.
I was the support Sarah was thesupport for the tech company
she was working for at the time,which she doesn't like to talk
about the name of and so I won't, but we, yes, I think she,
(46:56):
certainly the two companies kneweach other.
There were some interactions.
We were kind of coming up atthe same time.
I had used her product, theircompany had used Campaign
Monitor as well, and so therewas that interaction and I think
we had had some supportinteractions in that way.
And then I knew of her alsobecause of the blog, and so I
think at some point I just kindof said like it would be good to
(47:18):
talk to someone else, like Iliterally don't know anyone else
who does what I do.
This is how long ago it was, uh, and then we managed to meet up
, yeah, in person in austin forsouth by southwest I think this
was maybe gary vaynerchuk waslike a, the key speaker there.
Sarah Caminiti (47:35):
Yeah, I don't even know who that is.
But now I'm going to go GoogleOne of the oldies.
Mat Patterson (47:40):
He was a big deal at the time, wouldn't
necessarily spend a lot of timeon him these days, but, yeah, so
we were there, we met up, I hadcoffee, I think Tony what's his
name from Zappos, who's nolonger with us walked past us
and we both were like, oh that's, you know, tony from Zappos.
(48:06):
This is how we knew we had foundthe right person, yeah, and so
we just had a good chat aboutlike, wouldn't it be great if
there was more of us, if wecould, like, talk about this
stuff more?
And then, you know, I went backto Australia and did nothing.
And then she went back towherever she was and did nothing
.
And then she went back to, uh,wherever she was and created a
support conference out ofnothing, um, and I started doing
talks there, yeah, long timeago, and out of that came what
(48:29):
is now elevate and out of thatalso support driven sort of
started from that same community.
And, uh, now literallythousands of people don't have
to be alone doing that job,which is, it's incredible,
incredible to think about howfar it's come in that time, and
I'm very thankful for it.
Sarah Caminiti (48:47):
You should be really proud of it too.
I mean just saying out loud hey, we both do the same thing and
it would be really cool if wecould talk about this more.
Wait, I wonder if there's otherpeople that are doing the same
thing and just kind of justtrusting your gut a little bit
and going out of your comfortzone a little bit and, uh,
(49:10):
seeing what happens when you tryand look at what happens.
Mat Patterson (49:15):
Yeah, that's been a bit of a pattern for me.
I think I can look back now.
I used to be a web designer.
When I was a web designer, Iwas like why are all the other
designers that are talking aboutthings are like freelancers or
they run design agencies and Iwas working in-house for
different companies.
Like I was the web designerinside the Australian Stock
Exchange and I was like I'mdoing a different job even
(49:35):
Australian Stock Exchange and Iwas like I'm doing a different
job even though we're both webdesigners.
I wish there was more people.
And I sort of just found someon the internet and like started
an email chain and we justtalked about like being an
internal web designer and whatthat was like.
And then I was in emailmarketing.
And then I sort of did the samething there with Justine Jordan
, who many people will know fromLitmus in those days, just
(50:00):
talking about what it was liketo do email marketing.
I think I met her actually atSouth by Southwest the same one,
yeah we just met in a bar andwe were like email marketing
people, and then we had a goodchat about that and we sort of
bought a domain name the nextday together, about to try and
start like an email marketingcommunity with less success, I
(50:22):
would say, than Sarah had, butstill, it was definitely a
pattern for me and it remains so.
So, yeah, absolutely, find yourcommunity and if it doesn't
exist, make your community, likethose people are out there.
You just got to be the firstone to take that one step and
you'll find your you knowequivalent of Sarah Hatter, who
can actually do it for you.
Sarah Caminiti (50:41):
It's true, it's true and really cool things
happen when you start to talk topeople that are in your space.
It's just the opportunities areendless.
And this is way far and beyondnetworking, which is so much
easier and more fun when it's ina community, because you're
actually seeing people from apersonal level, but uh, but just
(51:04):
ideas and brainstorming and andjust lifting each other up and
and yeah, because we feel painwith like it's not an easy
department to exist in, to spendall of your time in, and
knowing that the stress is notspecial to you.
(51:28):
Yeah, it's not personal.
At least for me, that was aweight.
Mat Patterson (51:31):
It's just the job , and you don't have to just
kind of hang out and absorb thatall yourself, especially if
you're a leader.
If you're a leader and you'retrying to figure out how to deal
with your team going throughall sorts of change and chaos,
like there are other people outthere who are just someone who
is six months ahead of you wouldbe so helpful to talk to.
(51:51):
That's all it takes.
You don't need to find like anabsolute veteran of the industry
, and that's why these communityevents are so good, and I know
you're going to be in Denver, Ithink soon as we speak, and in
London, where I will also be atElevate.
So there's lots ofopportunities out there.
Go and find one, find yourpeople.
It's very much worth it.
Sarah Caminiti (52:13):
It's so worth it .
It's so worth it.
So, Mat, on that incrediblywonderful note, love the little
plug for the conferences to getyour tickets for both Denver and
London If you haven't, andLondon's free, so no excuses.
My entire team, even folks fromAsia, are going to be coming
over for this one.
(52:33):
So it's going to be a part.
But I like to end all of theseepisodes, all of these moments
with wonderful guests, by takinga moment to ask you what era do
you find yourself in, or whatera do you see yourself moving
into in the future?
(52:53):
So, Mat, what's your era?
Mat Patterson (52:57):
I would say era for a start Sounds less like a
mistake.
What era am I in?
Oh, constantly in errors.
Sarah Caminiti (53:04):
Oh, that's very true.
Yeah, it does kind of roll up.
What era am I?
Mat Patterson (53:07):
in.
That's a good question.
I feel like I have been goingthrough a kind of recalculation
of, like, what is my job andwhat am I trying to do?
And that discussion that wejust had about like what is the
supportive actually for, I thinkhas come out of that process of
thinking through, like what isthe point of what I am doing?
(53:28):
Who am I trying to help?
And so it's maybe an era ofrefocusing, I guess, because
definitely some parts of thatare still the same as they were,
but some clarity has come tolike what value am I adding
there?
Which parts of the job do Ienjoy doing?
Which parts can I maybe findsomeone else to help with and
(53:52):
which parts, as always, justsuck it up because it has to get
done.
You can't always avoid them,but the awareness of that, and
so, yes, refocusing clarity, Ithink that's where I am right
now.
We'll see where that ends up.
Sarah Caminiti (54:15):
That's a good.
That think is so important toacknowledge clarity and to
acknowledge the need to reflectand refocus and think about
delegation and take some of theownership off of your shoulders,
(54:35):
and I think many of us couldbenefit from having a moment of
do I need to do this or is theresomeone else that could learn
from this, could grow from this,could help me with this?
There we are asking for helpagain.
Could help me with this?
(55:01):
There we are asking for helpagain.
But we support folk like to wearall the hats.
We like to do it all and keepasking if anyone else needs
anything else while we're doingit all with all of the hats and
holding like 18 coat racks withother hats on them, and it's
empowering to be able to saythis is where I want to focus my
(55:23):
attention, because I value mytime, and then making it happen.
So that's a really great era tofind yourself in, Mat, and I'm
excited for you and I'm excitedfor the supportive podcast and I
just it's's such an informativespace and and it's fun to
listen to and you're a greathost and I'm just really excited
(55:45):
to see, to see all the episodesthat are to come.
Mat Patterson (55:48):
Thank you very much.
Appreciate it, appreciate yourtime today.
Sarah Caminiti (55:51):
Thank you.
Thank you for your time.
I'm going to go to bed becauseit's very late in my time, but I
hope that you enjoy yourWednesday and yeah, thank you,
thank you.
Thank you so much for tuninginto another episode of Epochal
Growth.
It has been so much fun to haveMat Patterson share his wisdom
on customer service andleadership.
(56:11):
Remember, small things ignitechange and you're capable of so
much more than you realize.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe,
leave a review and share it withothers who are on their own
journey of growth.
I'm Sarah Caminiti and I hopeyou have a great day Until next
time.
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