August 20, 2024 • 41 mins
We all know how infuriating it can be when someone ghosts you after a couple of dates. It's okay to feel frustrated and deceived. But what else comes up for you in those moments? 🤔
In our latest Shorts episode, we're bringing you the key moments from the original episode so you can dive into the heart of the discussion where we explore the underlying fears that reawaken in the emotional aftermath of being ghosted. These include fears of being unworthy or not masculine enough for gay dating culture and the overarching fear of never finding happiness. 😥
Join us as we break down how our guest, through the thought record process, challenges his beliefs about the formulas and frameworks of relationship-seeking. 🌟💬
Don’t miss this insightful and compact version of our deep dive into the emotional experience. Check it out now and let us know your thoughts in the comments below! ⬇️🗣️
#TheCBTDive #CBTShorts #Podcast #MentalHealth #Ghosting #Relationships #Therapy #EmotionalWellbeing #SelfWorth #CBTDive
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to The CBT Dive, a video podcast
that shows you how to usecognitive behavioral therapy
skills in real life.
I'm psychotherapist and socialworker Rahim Thawar, and today's
show is a CBT Shorts episodewhere we've collected moments
from the original for you to dipinto.
(00:27):
Welcome to another episode ofThe CBT Dive.
Today, I've got Joe Ash with me.
Joe Ash is a 42-year-old salesprofessional working in the
global workforce mental healthfield.
He's based in Johannesburg,South Africa.
Joe Ash navigates life as asingle cisgender gay man, a
relatively new relationshipstatus after a 13-year committed
(00:50):
relationship.
But after three years of beingsingle, With a rather
adventurous dating lifestyle orlife, he feels like he's ready
for a serious commitment oncemore.
So we're joined by Joash today,who is going to explore the
experience of being ghosted.
Joash, how are you today?
(01:12):
I'm good, Rahim.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm good.
I'm going to go ahead and sharemy screen.
Okay, so Joash, what we'restarting with here is a
situation that brings updifficult feelings for you,
okay?
And that situation is thismoment, and I know it's not just
one moment, it probably happensover the course of a couple of
(01:34):
hours, where you realize thatyou've been ghosted because the
texting pattern with this personwho we're gonna call Ellie has
changed and he's stoppedresponding, okay?
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Is
SPEAKER_00 (01:47):
there anything else you want to share about the
particular situation or themoments when you realized you'd
been ghosted?
Yeah.
So let me give you some contextand some background to this.
So I had met Eddie on one of thedating apps and He wasn't
particularly my type and he hadtexted me.
(02:09):
He was polite and he wasengaging and he was
entertaining.
And then I think he suggestedhe'd like to meet.
So we did meet and he came overto my place.
We connected on so many levels.
He made me laugh in a way thatmany people don't generally do.
And because I felt thisconnection and the strong
(02:31):
chemistry with him, On thatnight when we met, it also
became physical, which neitherof us were expecting.
And in the run up to that firstmeeting, there was very frequent
texting between the two of us.
And he was very responsive.
And then we scheduled a seconddate.
And in the run-up to the seconddate, I could see that the
(02:53):
texting patterns had changed.
But he did give some context towhy it had changed.
He said that he had a familyevent.
And so then we met.
And that second date was dinnerand a movie.
And throughout the dinner andmovie, it was pretty good.
But I could also sense duringdinner that something had
(03:13):
changed, shifted a little.
But I was, I just thought thatmaybe I was reading into things
a little too much.
Like he was very, he waseffusive with his attraction to
me.
He's like constantly told me howmuch he thought that I was, that
he found me attractive.
(03:34):
And that in the second date hadalso changed.
Like he stopped telling me thathe thought that I was so
attractive any longer.
And He had picked me up from myplace for the second date.
And so he dropped me off.
And when he dropped me off, hedeclined to come in.
Then there was further lulls inthe texting conversation.
(03:59):
And again, he gave reasons forthat.
You know, he was busy with work.
And I think so that that dinnerand movie was either on a
Saturday or Sunday.
And...
I think the Monday and Tuesdaywe texted, and then by the
Wednesday or Thursday, there wasradio silence.
(04:21):
And so, yeah, here we are a goodfew months later, and that was
the trajectory of that.
Now, the thing that was sofrustrating is that I never even
found the guy physicallyattractive, but I felt...
into something with hispersonality.
And I thought like, oh my God,this guy is the kind of person
(04:43):
that while I don't find himphysically attractive, like
there's something here that Icould work with.
And so to be ghosted by someonethat I didn't even find
physically attractive was likehella infuriating, but it was
also the potential of what couldhave been because this is
(05:03):
someone that I've felt therecould be substance here.
Sure.
Okay, I'm going to pause youthere.
So the Wednesday after date two,and you discover the radio
silence, you felt frustrated,infuriated.
What were the other feelings youwere experiencing?
(05:23):
Frustrated, infuriated, angrywith myself.
angry with myself for fallingfor someone that was not.
And again, I keep saying thisphysical type thing because I
believe to an extent it isbullshit.
I think that we can build aconnection with anyone that we
have a cerebral connection withregardless of the physicality.
(05:47):
My belief is that we'reconditioned into having physical
types.
And so I try as much as possibleto not veer towards this
physical type.
But having said that, he was notsomeone that I would typically
find myself dating physically.
And so I found myself beingangry that I started feeling
(06:08):
attraction to someone Igenerally would have walked
past.
In a way, you're taking...
It's like a risk.
And when you take a risk...
and you get a slap in the face,I'm trying to figure out what
the feeling there would be.
Would it be like a kind ofembarrassment?
What are the other feelings?
(06:30):
Taken advantage of?
Possibly taken advantage of.
I always say this to myself,trust your instinct.
And I felt that in that momentin time, I didn't trust my
instinct.
I was taken with how I wasflattered by how much he found
me attractive in his words.
(06:52):
So it's almost like I was drivenby my ego in that moment.
And then my ego let me down.
Okay, so instead of takingadvantage of, I just used the
word used.
It's a bit shorter, of course.
When you talk about...
the bruising of the ego.
I'm trying to figure out whatfeeling words could be attached
(07:12):
to that.
And again, my mind is going toembarrassed.
I would say it's despair.
Despair.
If I had to.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm going to leave embarrassedthere, but I recognize that
despair is one of the moreprominent words.
I also want to ask if there wassadness.
(07:33):
Sadness and despair.
Yeah.
To me, those go hand in hand.
Okay.
And did you personally feelrejected?
Like he doesn't like me?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Without a doubt.
Because if you think about it,if I have to think about it
rather, something had to havehappened, right?
(07:53):
Either it was a reaction tosomething I've said, a reaction
to who I am on any kind oflevel, whether it was he was
looking for this personmasculine Adonis and here I am
with this very femme personalityand being.
(08:17):
And that was not aligned withwhat he wanted.
I don't know.
I still don't know what I wasrejected for.
The thoughts that went throughyour mind were about like, am I
too femme or do I not meet hisideal?
I wonder if the feeling there isabout around inferiority or
inadequacy.
Perhaps inferior, but also wheredo I fit in to this ideal?
(08:44):
gay dating scene, but also wheredo I fit into his world?
So confused.
Yeah.
Or were you questioning yourworth for the moment?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Which is why the very firstthing I did was log back onto
the dating apps.
(09:05):
So you were feeling determinedand a bit vengeful as well.
Because, you know, it's like,You motherfucker, I'm gonna show
you I can get dick if I want to.
Yes, yes.
Okay, I want you to go back tothe Wednesday after date two
when you discovered the radiosilence and help me with each of
these feelings.
(09:25):
I want you to rate them on ascale of one to 10 in terms of
intensity.
So 10 means it's quite intense.
How would you rate frustration?
I would say that was...
Probably a seven.
How would you rate inferiority?
Yeah, I would say that wasprobably at about an eight.
(09:48):
Again, because like, how darehe?
And then anger.
He most certainly does not.
So was the anger also about aneight?
Uh-huh.
Okay.
And feeling used.
(10:08):
or taken advantage of, how wouldyou rate that?
Maybe that's a six.
Okay.
And embarrassed?
Because I don't embarrasseasily, I would put that at
perhaps a four.
Okay.
And despair?
That would be about an eight.
Eight.
(10:30):
And sadness, would that also bean eight?
Because you said sadness anddespair go hand in hand.
Agreed.
And then the feeling ofrejection.
Oh, I mean, that's a 10 becauseI mean, clearly I was rejected
in that.
Yes.
(10:50):
Feeling of inadequacy.
Like I'm not enough or maybe I'mnot, I don't fit the aesthetic
or whatever it is.
Yeah.
I would rate that at about afour to be honest.
And then confused.
I imagine that was a bit high.
That was high.
I would say that was a 10.
(11:12):
And then unworthy, similar toinadequate, but slightly
different.
How was your sense ofworthiness?
I would say that's also at abouta four, maybe even a five.
And then to what degree did youfeel vengeful and determined?
(11:34):
So give me a rating of intensityfor each one.
I'm determined with the 10,honey.
I'd say like, you know, maybesubconsciously I'm vengeful, but
generally I wouldn't call myselfa vengeful person, but I'd say
that's probably a seven.
(11:55):
Cause like, you know what yougo, I'm going to do this anyway,
with or without you.
Yes.
And there's also, you know,earlier when we were talking
about being used, and I knowthat that word didn't quite fit.
I wonder if a better word wouldbe deceived.
Did you feel like you weredeceived?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good word.
(12:16):
And so how would you rate yourlevel of deception that you
experienced?
I would put that at like a 10.
Ah, okay.
So the feelings that...
got the highest ratings weredeceived, rejected, confused,
determined.
And, you know, the most painfulones are probably deceived and
(12:38):
rejected.
And then confused is a bitneutral and determined.
We tend to see that we would seethat as positive.
So it's not a surprise to methat deceived got lost earlier
because There's so many strongfeelings and some overshadow
others.
(12:59):
And then you have your secondset of difficult feelings and
maybe some of the more painfulones, infuriated, anger,
despair, sadness.
And then we go down a notch,vengeful, frustration, used,
unworthy, inadequate, andembarrassed.
So now, Joash, Wednesday afterdate two, you discover the radio
(13:23):
silence.
You're feeling this range ofemotions.
One of the things you did interms of your behavior was go
back onto the dating apps,right?
The other thing you're doing isyou're also thinking about the
future.
you'd built up in your mind withthis person.
So you're reflecting a bit onwhere you let your imagination
(13:46):
go.
Is there anything else you did?
So immediate behaviors would betelling my friends and say, can
you believe the nerve of thisfucking asshole who's just
ghosted me?
Yes.
So seeking some validation.
Seeking validation, yeah.
Yeah.
And probably the bigger aspectof seeking validation was
(14:09):
getting back into the datingapps.
Okay.
And when you think about...
you know, when you earlier, oneof the first feelings you came
up with was anger and you saidanger toward myself.
And so I'm thinking that angerand feeling deceived are,
there's a connection betweenthose two.
Cause it's not just, I wasdeceived or I feel deceived.
(14:30):
I've been tricked, but there's apiece of you that says, I let
myself be deceived.
So in your mind, when you say, Ifeel deceived, I feel anger.
What are you thinking?
What's the thought there?
That I allowed myself to getinto that situation against my
(14:51):
better judgment.
I would have walked past thisguy had I seen him on the street
and not really paid him anyattention.
And my friends tease me in thatI find 90% of men hot.
He's not in the 90%.
Joe Ash, we can tell theaudience, I am that friend who
(15:13):
teases you.
Anytime we're together, I'mlike, oh my gosh, Joe Ash finds
this guy.
He's so hot.
Like what a surprise.
So look, I think when it comesto confusion, there's confusion
about what happened, but I thinkthere's also confusion around
(15:37):
your approach to dating.
It throws you for a loop in away, because on the one hand you
say, you know, you lead withphysical attraction when you
first meet somebody.
And then you also think thatphysical attraction doesn't have
to be completely important.
And I wonder if it makes thatconfuses you a bit.
(15:58):
So it does.
Now I have a sense of why youfelt deceived and what the
thought is that's connected tothat.
Tell me about the thought thatwas connected to feeling
rejected, inadequate andunworthy.
because even though those havedifferent ratings, I would group
(16:19):
them together in terms ofsimilarity of emotion.
So let me give you some othercontext that I didn't mention to
you.
Yes.
So Eddie is a white man who hasa penchant for brown men like
myself.
Now, the minute I heard that, itwas a red flag.
(16:46):
that I am just fulfilling hisfetish for brown men.
And I don't like that.
Especially if you're white,don't fetishize me.
And so if you fell into thisfetish and you ignored the red
flags, what does that mean?
(17:08):
That I'm not as attuned to myinner thoughts as I...
thought I was.
And you know that I'm not onsocial media.
And one of the reasons why Itook myself off of social media
is I didn't like who I was whenI got the attention from people.
(17:31):
It kind of made me narcissistic.
And I didn't like that.
I found myself seeking thatvalidation.
Okay.
So I tried to put, when I askedLike, what does this mean for
you?
Or what does it say about you?
I got a couple of things, butI'm not sure if I captured it
accurately.
So help me here.
(17:52):
The first thing is I'm not asattuned to myself and people
dynamics as I thought.
And the other one isaffirmations from people are
good for my ego.
And I don't want to be at themercy of others likes.
So that's accurate.
And so, It is accurate.
(18:14):
And so I can give you some morecontext to that.
So I grew up as a fat kid.
I started to lose weight when Iwas a young adult.
And over the course of my adultlife, my weight would fluctuate
as it still does to this day.
And immediately when I washeavier, the first question
(18:38):
people would ask me, are youstill going to gym?
and i knew for someone who doesreligiously go to gym whether
i'm fat or thin um i i knew thatwas a subtle way of asking or of
saying oh you've gone fat um andso conversely when people would
say oh you're looking you'velost weight you're looking so
(18:58):
great i would consciouslydistance myself from um from
that association that myattractiveness is built into the
size of my body.
While I have tried toconsciously dissociate myself
from people's perception of mylevel of attractiveness, I
(19:23):
clearly do not within thecontext of dating.
So in this context with Ellie,when you were ghosted was one of
your thoughts about your body?
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
not just body.
you know it goes into all facetsof who I am the other components
are going back to what wementioned earlier am I just too
too effeminate for him am I notbrown enough for him because
while I am a brown person I'mnot the most brown person out
there in terms of culturalidentity he's has follows Hindu
(20:02):
religion and all of thesefucking things that I you know
while I'm curious about it.
I don't.
I grew up Christian.
I don't eat curry and biryanievery day while I do love it.
Does he do that?
I think he does.
I don't know.
Who the fuck cares?
But, you know, I mean, this ismore than a red flag.
(20:27):
Somebody who eats biryani everyday is a red flag, sweetie.
I don't know, but he was likeculturally a lot more brown than
I was.
That's what I'm saying.
And he made you feel for amoment, not brown enough.
Cause like to be brown doesn'tmean to be Hindu, right?
But that from, from the white,the perspective of the white
(20:48):
gaze, that is absolutely whatbrownness is.
It's about, you know, likeimages of gods and goddesses or
higher beings, it's ritual andall of this kind of stuff.
So, You're thinking I'm notbrown enough.
So go stay with this for amoment.
(21:09):
If you're not brown like othermen or you're not as into this
idea of culture, then what doesthat say about you?
Is that he may not see me asbeing authentic.
He may see me as being whatother people would.
And does that mean that you fora moment worry that you're not
authentic enough or you're notconnected enough to your
(21:31):
identity?
I don't feel that, but I feelthat that may be his perception.
And coming back to my body isn'tthin enough or good enough, did
this person ever comment on yourbody?
He did.
He was actually very positiveabout my body.
He always says, oh, I can seeyour workout.
And I got sucked into the egoplay that was there.
(21:55):
So...
When you say my body isn't thinenough or good enough, like
that's one of the thoughts.
I get that you've gone through aprocess of self-acceptance, but
you're also saying here thatit's not thin enough or good
enough for gay culture.
Is that right?
If we were to bring that intothis situation, is that this guy
(22:20):
maybe lied to me about beinginto my body.
Is that what you're thinking?
Yeah.
Okay.
And when you think your bodyisn't good enough for gay
culture, is there a fearassociated with that?
So the fear for me is thatyou'll never fit into or you'll
(22:44):
never find happiness.
So if I don't fit into thetextbook definition of what a
gay man should look like, thenmy chances diminish.
So...
you know, if your body isn'tthin enough or good enough for
gay culture, what you're sayinghere is that there are fewer
opportunities for sparking.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
With other gay men.
Right.
And in a moment where you'refeeling quite dire, you might
say, I'll never find happiness.
That's like the underlying fear.
Okay.
Let's pause here for a moment.
I'm going to go back to a coupleof the thoughts that we've
already put down here.
(23:32):
What we have been doing is we'vebeen enumerating what I would
call your automatic thoughts.
Now, because you had fourfeelings that had a rating of
10, another four that had arating of eight, right?
We're working with Eightfeelings that are quite
prominent.
So now it's my job to ask yousome follow-up questions.
(23:54):
I want to distill these thoughtsinto something that's a bit more
basic or something that'shelping to drive a lot of the
difficult feelings.
So when you say I allowed myselfto get into the situation
despite my better judgment, likeif I were to ask you, what does
that mean?
(24:14):
Is that again about you notbeing attuned?
As attuned as you thought?
Yeah.
Okay.
It is about that.
It's also about not trusting myinstinct.
Okay.
So your instinct.
Now this is tricky because yourinstinct was about physical
(24:37):
attraction, was it not?
Or was your instinct, was thered flag that I'm not physically
attracted to him so I shouldn'tgo further?
No.
Or was your instinct that hefetishizes brown men, so I
shouldn't take it, I shouldn'tpursue it?
It's both of those.
(24:57):
And when you didn't listen tothose things, what is it,
there's a reason you did it.
You know, what were you, why didyou want to put them aside?
You were hoping that, what wouldhappen?
So the reason I put them asideis because the banter, the
conversation, the chemistry andthe spark were all there.
(25:18):
And so I thought, let's give himthe benefit of the doubt.
And so what if his previouspartner was Brown?
And if that's his thing, thenthat's his thing.
But this is like a really niceguy that I'm having a great time
with.
Surely he deserves to have achance So he deserves to have a
(25:42):
chance.
And you started building up animage in your mind about what
your future could be liketogether.
How far did your mind go?
So a life together, a life as ina committed relationship, which
comes with all the accoutrementof what a committed relationship
is.
(26:02):
So part of this is like hedeserves a chance and we could
have a life together together.
And if we go into that a bitdeeper, it's about, I thought
we'd have a life together.
And the consequence is I'llnever find happiness.
So my question to you, Joash, iswhich of these thoughts would
(26:22):
you identify as your hotthought?
Meaning the one that is mostsalient, the one that's most
prominent, that's driving a lotof the difficult feelings.
Yeah.
It's I'll never find happiness.
Yeah.
Now we're going to go through ashort process of evaluating this
(26:44):
thought.
What is some evidence you havein your dating and relationship
life that supports the idea thatyou'll never find happiness?
I've been dating for three and ahalf years and I've not been
able to have something thatsustained beyond two, maybe
three dates, while other peoplehave been single for far less
(27:07):
time than I have.
And they have went on to merrilyfind their version of happiness.
Is there somebody you'rethinking about in particular?
A friend and also my ex went onto have two significant
relationships after me.
Look, I'm going to come back tothe automatic thoughts,
actually.
(27:28):
because you said something rightnow that made me think that
perhaps I'll never findhappiness is a belief you have,
or it's a scary belief you have.
If we were to add to that, is itI'll never, if you were to say
I'll never find happinessbecause, how would you finish
that sentence?
Because I don't meet theexpectations of what people want
(27:53):
in a relationship.
And what do they want?
Someone who is more masculinehas a more perfect body because
I'm again, furthest away fromthat.
Is this like the Adonis fatiguephysique you're talking about?
Like the broad shoulders, smallwaist, big butt.
Okay.
Let's go back to evidence thatsupports this hot thought that
(28:15):
you'll never find happinessbecause you're not masculine
enough or don't have the Adonisphysique.
Where else do you get evidencethat supports that?
So your friend and your ex, arethey more masculine?
Do they have that physique?
Yeah.
I mean, if you had to look up apicture of Adana's physique,
(28:36):
both of them are those images.
Ah, okay.
Is there any other evidence?
Like, for example, has someonetold you that they would date
you if you were more masculineor had a different physique?
UNKNOWN (28:51):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
So someone in relation to you said, oh, I'm
not really into camp men.
Or, you know, you're cute, butyou're just too femme or
whatever the case is.
Ah, okay.
Okay.
Let's go to the other column.
Now, this one is a bit harder,but just as important.
(29:12):
What is evidence you have thatdoesn't support this idea?
That you'll never find happinessbecause you're not masculine
enough or don't have the Adonisphysique?
Um...
I was in a relationship for 13years with someone who loved me,
whom I loved.
Have you been on dates wherepeople appreciated your fem-ness
(29:36):
or your campiness?
Yeah, I was dating someone wholoved...
Again, it was just like one ortwo dates that we went on who...
thought that my sense of stylewas really interesting and was
fun.
And so he liked that about me.
(29:57):
And my sense of style isanything but heteronormative.
And the same person was alsovery much in love with my body,
you know, everything about mybody.
And so this is, you've been witha couple of guys then, I think
from what I've heard that arereally are in love with your
body, including the guy whoghosted you, right?
(30:19):
Including the fucking guy whogoes to me.
We're going to move over to thenext column, which is the
alternative thought.
Now, alternative thoughts arenot positive affirmations.
A positive affirmation would beeverything happens for a reason.
(30:39):
One day I'll meet the person ofmy dreams.
I don't subscribe to thatbecause I don't think that it
speaks to your experience andwhat you're talking about here.
Alternative thoughts are gonnabe alternatives to what we have
in bold here that says I'llnever find happiness because I'm
(31:00):
not masculine enough and I don'thave the Adonis physique.
So given that we've gone throughthe evidence for and against,
what might an alternativethought be?
is that I will continue to havea very adventurous and fun
dating life.
Okay.
And is there happiness in that?
(31:24):
There is happiness in that, yes.
But it's fleeting happiness andit's situational happiness.
So when people ghost me, Ishould remind myself...
that I need to kiss a thousandtoads before I find a prince.
(31:45):
Yes, that, okay.
And because that is about, notabout what you're lacking, it's
about the process.
When people ghost me, I shouldremind myself that it's not
about something I'm lacking, butrather the process, kiss a
(32:06):
thousand toads.
You also said that you reallywant to get past day two and
three.
And when that doesn't happen andyou're ghosted, what's a helpful
thing to remind yourself of orto tell yourself?
You're a face in a sea of faces.
(32:27):
You're a face in a gallery offaces.
Very often we become disposablewhen you're in that space.
gallery of faces because you'dsimply move on to the next.
So if I don't get past date twoor three, it's often because of
the culture of being disposablein a sea of options.
(32:52):
All right.
So here are our alternativethoughts.
I will continue to have anadventurous dating life.
I can have short periods ofhappiness.
When people ghost me, it's notabout something I'm lacking, but
rather the process.
if I don't get past date two orthree, it's often because of the
culture of being disposable in asea of options.
(33:16):
Now, you've also been comparingyourself to your ex and your
friend.
So I think you've got to putsomething in your alternative
thought that captures that.
So while either people have morerelationships, there's someone
for everyone.
And so...
I may not be the benchmark, butnot everyone likes vanilla.
(33:42):
Yes.
While I do want a relationship,I still really enjoy the whole
dating culture that I'm in rightnow.
The comforting thing about beingrejected is that you're never
going to please 100% of people100% of time.
And I'm okay with that.
(34:04):
Okay, so based on what we'vejust said, tell me what you
think about this.
I can want a long-termrelationship and continue to
enjoy dating life.
Dating also teaches me newthings and it's fair to be upset
about feeling deceived.
Does that speak to you?
Does that capture what you'vejust been saying?
(34:26):
Okay, I'm gonna put that inbold.
When you read that, thatalternative thought, I want you
to think about conjure up thefeeling of being ghosted.
We've all been there, right?
It's painful.
Tell yourself, I want along-term relationship and I
(34:47):
continue to enjoy dating life.
Dating teaches me new things.
And it's fair to be upset rightnow about being deceived.
Does the intensity of beingdeceived matter?
How would you rate it?
We're going back to youroriginal feelings and we're
rating them now.
We're re-rating them.
In this moment, when youmeditate on the alternative
thought, how do you rate theintensity of these feelings?
(35:11):
So deceived is still high upthere because that's still a 10.
Uh-huh, yeah.
Good.
How about rejected?
Five over six.
Confused?
I would say that's still high.
So eight?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And how determined do you feel?
(35:32):
Oh, still a 10, honey.
And infuriated?
I'd probably say maybe about aseven.
Okay.
And anger?
At yourself?
Also about a seven.
Okay.
Despair?
Yeah, like four.
(35:54):
Okay.
And sadness?
Also a four.
Okay.
Vengefulness?
I'll show him.
I would say maybe a five.
Yes.
And your level of frustration?
So I'd still put this at about asix or a seven.
UNKNOWN (36:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
How about feeling used?
About four.
Unworthy?
I would put that at four aswell.
Mm-hmm.
Inadequate?
Four.
And embarrassed?
I would put that at three.
(36:36):
All right.
Are there any new feelings thatare emerging for you?
Hopeful.
Yeah.
Adventurous.
I also wonder if you feel abit...
Oh, okay, yeah.
Hopeful, optimistic.
(36:57):
That's good.
You might actually be feelingworthy.
You're actually, it's not abouthow unworthy do I feel, but
there's a sense of likeworthiness and confidence.
If I said like, how worthy doyou feel next to this person who
short-sightedly ghosted you?
You know, I know I'm worthy ofmany things.
(37:20):
So I would rate my worthinesshigh.
I would put it as a nine or a 10even.
Okay.
And then is there a kind ofrighteousness?
I would say so.
All right.
I'm going to leave it therebecause we were adding new
feelings and that's good.
So, you know, by the time we getto the end of a thought record,
right?
Adding new feelings can behelpful because it means that,
(37:46):
you know, we've gone from thedifficulty of identifying basic
emotions in a situation andexpanded, expanding to creating
space for so many more.
So we've got deceived andrejected and rejected.
It's gone from 10 to a fivedeceived has stayed the same.
(38:07):
Your level of determination isgood, but your resentment and
your vengefulness has gone down.
You've discovered not just thatyou're not unworthy, but that
you are worthy.
You're optimistic, adventurous,hopeful, and you've got a bit of
righteousness, which is healthy.
You're infuriated, frustrated,angry, confused at a similar
(38:32):
level that you were before, butyour sense of feeling used has
gone down.
Your sense of being confused hasgone down a bit.
And then your feelings ofdespair, sadness and
unworthiness went down quite abit and inadequate and
embarrassed went down just atouch.
(38:53):
Have a look at this thoughtrecord and just tell me what are
some of your overallreflections?
So this has articulated thingsthat I've felt but not paid
attention to.
I still have difficulties withmy body and how that manifests
(39:21):
itself in the relationships,dating situations that I find
myself in.
Yeah.
And you know what really stoodout to me, Joash?
It's actually...
it's striking and mind blowingto some degree that in your
mind, you've got this formula.
You have this core belief thatpeople spark with physical
(39:45):
attraction and then they buildsomething deeper.
And forgive me if this is anoverstep or, you know, I've gone
too far, but it seems to me likeyou've built a lot of your gym
routine and emphasis on gym and,around being able to provide the
initial physical attraction sothat something deeper can be
(40:06):
built.
But you discovered with thisperson, Ellie, that there wasn't
a physical spark to begin withand the other things could be
built.
So I think there's a largertakeaway here that the formula
might be different for differentpeople.
(40:29):
The formula can be disrupted oraltered sometimes.
Joes, I'm going to thank you forbeing a guest on CBT Die.
Maybe we'll see you again.
But thank you for going throughthis process.
Take care.
Thank you, Rahim.
Bye.
That's our CBT Shorts episodefor today.
I'm Rahim Thawar, and thank youfor joining us.
(40:50):
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts.
If you want more content fromus, check out our other social
media platforms.
The CBT dive is intended foreducational purposes and not
meant as a replacement fortherapy.
Hello and welcome to The CBT Dive, a video podcast
that shows you how to usecognitive behavioral therapy
skills in real life.
I'm psychotherapist and socialworker Rahim Thawar, and today's
show is a CBT Shorts episodewhere we've collected moments
from the original for you to dipinto.
(00:27):
Welcome to another episode ofThe CBT Dive.
Today, I've got Joe Ash with me.
Joe Ash is a 42-year-old salesprofessional working in the
global workforce mental healthfield.
He's based in Johannesburg,South Africa.
Joe Ash navigates life as asingle cisgender gay man, a
relatively new relationshipstatus after a 13-year committed
(00:50):
relationship.
But after three years of beingsingle, With a rather
adventurous dating lifestyle orlife, he feels like he's ready
for a serious commitment oncemore.
So we're joined by Joash today,who is going to explore the
experience of being ghosted.
Joash, how are you today?
(01:12):
I'm good, Rahim.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm good.
I'm going to go ahead and sharemy screen.
Okay, so Joash, what we'restarting with here is a
situation that brings updifficult feelings for you,
okay?
And that situation is thismoment, and I know it's not just
one moment, it probably happensover the course of a couple of
(01:34):
hours, where you realize thatyou've been ghosted because the
texting pattern with this personwho we're gonna call Ellie has
changed and he's stoppedresponding, okay?
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Is
SPEAKER_00 (01:47):
there anything else you want to share about the
particular situation or themoments when you realized you'd
been ghosted?
Yeah.
So let me give you some contextand some background to this.
So I had met Eddie on one of thedating apps and He wasn't
particularly my type and he hadtexted me.
(02:09):
He was polite and he wasengaging and he was
entertaining.
And then I think he suggestedhe'd like to meet.
So we did meet and he came overto my place.
We connected on so many levels.
He made me laugh in a way thatmany people don't generally do.
And because I felt thisconnection and the strong
(02:31):
chemistry with him, On thatnight when we met, it also
became physical, which neitherof us were expecting.
And in the run up to that firstmeeting, there was very frequent
texting between the two of us.
And he was very responsive.
And then we scheduled a seconddate.
And in the run-up to the seconddate, I could see that the
(02:53):
texting patterns had changed.
But he did give some context towhy it had changed.
He said that he had a familyevent.
And so then we met.
And that second date was dinnerand a movie.
And throughout the dinner andmovie, it was pretty good.
But I could also sense duringdinner that something had
(03:13):
changed, shifted a little.
But I was, I just thought thatmaybe I was reading into things
a little too much.
Like he was very, he waseffusive with his attraction to
me.
He's like constantly told me howmuch he thought that I was, that
he found me attractive.
(03:34):
And that in the second date hadalso changed.
Like he stopped telling me thathe thought that I was so
attractive any longer.
And He had picked me up from myplace for the second date.
And so he dropped me off.
And when he dropped me off, hedeclined to come in.
Then there was further lulls inthe texting conversation.
(03:59):
And again, he gave reasons forthat.
You know, he was busy with work.
And I think so that that dinnerand movie was either on a
Saturday or Sunday.
And...
I think the Monday and Tuesdaywe texted, and then by the
Wednesday or Thursday, there wasradio silence.
(04:21):
And so, yeah, here we are a goodfew months later, and that was
the trajectory of that.
Now, the thing that was sofrustrating is that I never even
found the guy physicallyattractive, but I felt...
into something with hispersonality.
And I thought like, oh my God,this guy is the kind of person
(04:43):
that while I don't find himphysically attractive, like
there's something here that Icould work with.
And so to be ghosted by someonethat I didn't even find
physically attractive was likehella infuriating, but it was
also the potential of what couldhave been because this is
(05:03):
someone that I've felt therecould be substance here.
Sure.
Okay, I'm going to pause youthere.
So the Wednesday after date two,and you discover the radio
silence, you felt frustrated,infuriated.
What were the other feelings youwere experiencing?
(05:23):
Frustrated, infuriated, angrywith myself.
angry with myself for fallingfor someone that was not.
And again, I keep saying thisphysical type thing because I
believe to an extent it isbullshit.
I think that we can build aconnection with anyone that we
have a cerebral connection withregardless of the physicality.
(05:47):
My belief is that we'reconditioned into having physical
types.
And so I try as much as possibleto not veer towards this
physical type.
But having said that, he was notsomeone that I would typically
find myself dating physically.
And so I found myself beingangry that I started feeling
(06:08):
attraction to someone Igenerally would have walked
past.
In a way, you're taking...
It's like a risk.
And when you take a risk...
and you get a slap in the face,I'm trying to figure out what
the feeling there would be.
Would it be like a kind ofembarrassment?
What are the other feelings?
(06:30):
Taken advantage of?
Possibly taken advantage of.
I always say this to myself,trust your instinct.
And I felt that in that momentin time, I didn't trust my
instinct.
I was taken with how I wasflattered by how much he found
me attractive in his words.
(06:52):
So it's almost like I was drivenby my ego in that moment.
And then my ego let me down.
Okay, so instead of takingadvantage of, I just used the
word used.
It's a bit shorter, of course.
When you talk about...
the bruising of the ego.
I'm trying to figure out whatfeeling words could be attached
(07:12):
to that.
And again, my mind is going toembarrassed.
I would say it's despair.
Despair.
If I had to.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm going to leave embarrassedthere, but I recognize that
despair is one of the moreprominent words.
I also want to ask if there wassadness.
(07:33):
Sadness and despair.
Yeah.
To me, those go hand in hand.
Okay.
And did you personally feelrejected?
Like he doesn't like me?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Without a doubt.
Because if you think about it,if I have to think about it
rather, something had to havehappened, right?
(07:53):
Either it was a reaction tosomething I've said, a reaction
to who I am on any kind oflevel, whether it was he was
looking for this personmasculine Adonis and here I am
with this very femme personalityand being.
(08:17):
And that was not aligned withwhat he wanted.
I don't know.
I still don't know what I wasrejected for.
The thoughts that went throughyour mind were about like, am I
too femme or do I not meet hisideal?
I wonder if the feeling there isabout around inferiority or
inadequacy.
Perhaps inferior, but also wheredo I fit in to this ideal?
(08:44):
gay dating scene, but also wheredo I fit into his world?
So confused.
Yeah.
Or were you questioning yourworth for the moment?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Which is why the very firstthing I did was log back onto
the dating apps.
(09:05):
So you were feeling determinedand a bit vengeful as well.
Because, you know, it's like,You motherfucker, I'm gonna show
you I can get dick if I want to.
Yes, yes.
Okay, I want you to go back tothe Wednesday after date two
when you discovered the radiosilence and help me with each of
these feelings.
(09:25):
I want you to rate them on ascale of one to 10 in terms of
intensity.
So 10 means it's quite intense.
How would you rate frustration?
I would say that was...
Probably a seven.
How would you rate inferiority?
Yeah, I would say that wasprobably at about an eight.
(09:48):
Again, because like, how darehe?
And then anger.
He most certainly does not.
So was the anger also about aneight?
Uh-huh.
Okay.
And feeling used.
(10:08):
or taken advantage of, how wouldyou rate that?
Maybe that's a six.
Okay.
And embarrassed?
Because I don't embarrasseasily, I would put that at
perhaps a four.
Okay.
And despair?
That would be about an eight.
Eight.
(10:30):
And sadness, would that also bean eight?
Because you said sadness anddespair go hand in hand.
Agreed.
And then the feeling ofrejection.
Oh, I mean, that's a 10 becauseI mean, clearly I was rejected
in that.
Yes.
(10:50):
Feeling of inadequacy.
Like I'm not enough or maybe I'mnot, I don't fit the aesthetic
or whatever it is.
Yeah.
I would rate that at about afour to be honest.
And then confused.
I imagine that was a bit high.
That was high.
I would say that was a 10.
(11:12):
And then unworthy, similar toinadequate, but slightly
different.
How was your sense ofworthiness?
I would say that's also at abouta four, maybe even a five.
And then to what degree did youfeel vengeful and determined?
(11:34):
So give me a rating of intensityfor each one.
I'm determined with the 10,honey.
I'd say like, you know, maybesubconsciously I'm vengeful, but
generally I wouldn't call myselfa vengeful person, but I'd say
that's probably a seven.
(11:55):
Cause like, you know what yougo, I'm going to do this anyway,
with or without you.
Yes.
And there's also, you know,earlier when we were talking
about being used, and I knowthat that word didn't quite fit.
I wonder if a better word wouldbe deceived.
Did you feel like you weredeceived?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good word.
(12:16):
And so how would you rate yourlevel of deception that you
experienced?
I would put that at like a 10.
Ah, okay.
So the feelings that...
got the highest ratings weredeceived, rejected, confused,
determined.
And, you know, the most painfulones are probably deceived and
(12:38):
rejected.
And then confused is a bitneutral and determined.
We tend to see that we would seethat as positive.
So it's not a surprise to methat deceived got lost earlier
because There's so many strongfeelings and some overshadow
others.
(12:59):
And then you have your secondset of difficult feelings and
maybe some of the more painfulones, infuriated, anger,
despair, sadness.
And then we go down a notch,vengeful, frustration, used,
unworthy, inadequate, andembarrassed.
So now, Joash, Wednesday afterdate two, you discover the radio
(13:23):
silence.
You're feeling this range ofemotions.
One of the things you did interms of your behavior was go
back onto the dating apps,right?
The other thing you're doing isyou're also thinking about the
future.
you'd built up in your mind withthis person.
So you're reflecting a bit onwhere you let your imagination
(13:46):
go.
Is there anything else you did?
So immediate behaviors would betelling my friends and say, can
you believe the nerve of thisfucking asshole who's just
ghosted me?
Yes.
So seeking some validation.
Seeking validation, yeah.
Yeah.
And probably the bigger aspectof seeking validation was
(14:09):
getting back into the datingapps.
Okay.
And when you think about...
you know, when you earlier, oneof the first feelings you came
up with was anger and you saidanger toward myself.
And so I'm thinking that angerand feeling deceived are,
there's a connection betweenthose two.
Cause it's not just, I wasdeceived or I feel deceived.
(14:30):
I've been tricked, but there's apiece of you that says, I let
myself be deceived.
So in your mind, when you say, Ifeel deceived, I feel anger.
What are you thinking?
What's the thought there?
That I allowed myself to getinto that situation against my
(14:51):
better judgment.
I would have walked past thisguy had I seen him on the street
and not really paid him anyattention.
And my friends tease me in thatI find 90% of men hot.
He's not in the 90%.
Joe Ash, we can tell theaudience, I am that friend who
(15:13):
teases you.
Anytime we're together, I'mlike, oh my gosh, Joe Ash finds
this guy.
He's so hot.
Like what a surprise.
So look, I think when it comesto confusion, there's confusion
about what happened, but I thinkthere's also confusion around
(15:37):
your approach to dating.
It throws you for a loop in away, because on the one hand you
say, you know, you lead withphysical attraction when you
first meet somebody.
And then you also think thatphysical attraction doesn't have
to be completely important.
And I wonder if it makes thatconfuses you a bit.
(15:58):
So it does.
Now I have a sense of why youfelt deceived and what the
thought is that's connected tothat.
Tell me about the thought thatwas connected to feeling
rejected, inadequate andunworthy.
because even though those havedifferent ratings, I would group
(16:19):
them together in terms ofsimilarity of emotion.
So let me give you some othercontext that I didn't mention to
you.
Yes.
So Eddie is a white man who hasa penchant for brown men like
myself.
Now, the minute I heard that, itwas a red flag.
(16:46):
that I am just fulfilling hisfetish for brown men.
And I don't like that.
Especially if you're white,don't fetishize me.
And so if you fell into thisfetish and you ignored the red
flags, what does that mean?
(17:08):
That I'm not as attuned to myinner thoughts as I...
thought I was.
And you know that I'm not onsocial media.
And one of the reasons why Itook myself off of social media
is I didn't like who I was whenI got the attention from people.
(17:31):
It kind of made me narcissistic.
And I didn't like that.
I found myself seeking thatvalidation.
Okay.
So I tried to put, when I askedLike, what does this mean for
you?
Or what does it say about you?
I got a couple of things, butI'm not sure if I captured it
accurately.
So help me here.
(17:52):
The first thing is I'm not asattuned to myself and people
dynamics as I thought.
And the other one isaffirmations from people are
good for my ego.
And I don't want to be at themercy of others likes.
So that's accurate.
And so, It is accurate.
(18:14):
And so I can give you some morecontext to that.
So I grew up as a fat kid.
I started to lose weight when Iwas a young adult.
And over the course of my adultlife, my weight would fluctuate
as it still does to this day.
And immediately when I washeavier, the first question
(18:38):
people would ask me, are youstill going to gym?
and i knew for someone who doesreligiously go to gym whether
i'm fat or thin um i i knew thatwas a subtle way of asking or of
saying oh you've gone fat um andso conversely when people would
say oh you're looking you'velost weight you're looking so
(18:58):
great i would consciouslydistance myself from um from
that association that myattractiveness is built into the
size of my body.
While I have tried toconsciously dissociate myself
from people's perception of mylevel of attractiveness, I
(19:23):
clearly do not within thecontext of dating.
So in this context with Ellie,when you were ghosted was one of
your thoughts about your body?
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
not just body.
you know it goes into all facetsof who I am the other components
are going back to what wementioned earlier am I just too
too effeminate for him am I notbrown enough for him because
while I am a brown person I'mnot the most brown person out
there in terms of culturalidentity he's has follows Hindu
(20:02):
religion and all of thesefucking things that I you know
while I'm curious about it.
I don't.
I grew up Christian.
I don't eat curry and biryanievery day while I do love it.
Does he do that?
I think he does.
I don't know.
Who the fuck cares?
But, you know, I mean, this ismore than a red flag.
(20:27):
Somebody who eats biryani everyday is a red flag, sweetie.
I don't know, but he was likeculturally a lot more brown than
I was.
That's what I'm saying.
And he made you feel for amoment, not brown enough.
Cause like to be brown doesn'tmean to be Hindu, right?
But that from, from the white,the perspective of the white
(20:48):
gaze, that is absolutely whatbrownness is.
It's about, you know, likeimages of gods and goddesses or
higher beings, it's ritual andall of this kind of stuff.
So, You're thinking I'm notbrown enough.
So go stay with this for amoment.
(21:09):
If you're not brown like othermen or you're not as into this
idea of culture, then what doesthat say about you?
Is that he may not see me asbeing authentic.
He may see me as being whatother people would.
And does that mean that you fora moment worry that you're not
authentic enough or you're notconnected enough to your
(21:31):
identity?
I don't feel that, but I feelthat that may be his perception.
And coming back to my body isn'tthin enough or good enough, did
this person ever comment on yourbody?
He did.
He was actually very positiveabout my body.
He always says, oh, I can seeyour workout.
And I got sucked into the egoplay that was there.
(21:55):
So...
When you say my body isn't thinenough or good enough, like
that's one of the thoughts.
I get that you've gone through aprocess of self-acceptance, but
you're also saying here thatit's not thin enough or good
enough for gay culture.
Is that right?
If we were to bring that intothis situation, is that this guy
(22:20):
maybe lied to me about beinginto my body.
Is that what you're thinking?
Yeah.
Okay.
And when you think your bodyisn't good enough for gay
culture, is there a fearassociated with that?
So the fear for me is thatyou'll never fit into or you'll
(22:44):
never find happiness.
So if I don't fit into thetextbook definition of what a
gay man should look like, thenmy chances diminish.
So...
you know, if your body isn'tthin enough or good enough for
gay culture, what you're sayinghere is that there are fewer
opportunities for sparking.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
With other gay men.
Right.
And in a moment where you'refeeling quite dire, you might
say, I'll never find happiness.
That's like the underlying fear.
Okay.
Let's pause here for a moment.
I'm going to go back to a coupleof the thoughts that we've
already put down here.
(23:32):
What we have been doing is we'vebeen enumerating what I would
call your automatic thoughts.
Now, because you had fourfeelings that had a rating of
10, another four that had arating of eight, right?
We're working with Eightfeelings that are quite
prominent.
So now it's my job to ask yousome follow-up questions.
(23:54):
I want to distill these thoughtsinto something that's a bit more
basic or something that'shelping to drive a lot of the
difficult feelings.
So when you say I allowed myselfto get into the situation
despite my better judgment, likeif I were to ask you, what does
that mean?
(24:14):
Is that again about you notbeing attuned?
As attuned as you thought?
Yeah.
Okay.
It is about that.
It's also about not trusting myinstinct.
Okay.
So your instinct.
Now this is tricky because yourinstinct was about physical
(24:37):
attraction, was it not?
Or was your instinct, was thered flag that I'm not physically
attracted to him so I shouldn'tgo further?
No.
Or was your instinct that hefetishizes brown men, so I
shouldn't take it, I shouldn'tpursue it?
It's both of those.
(24:57):
And when you didn't listen tothose things, what is it,
there's a reason you did it.
You know, what were you, why didyou want to put them aside?
You were hoping that, what wouldhappen?
So the reason I put them asideis because the banter, the
conversation, the chemistry andthe spark were all there.
(25:18):
And so I thought, let's give himthe benefit of the doubt.
And so what if his previouspartner was Brown?
And if that's his thing, thenthat's his thing.
But this is like a really niceguy that I'm having a great time
with.
Surely he deserves to have achance So he deserves to have a
(25:42):
chance.
And you started building up animage in your mind about what
your future could be liketogether.
How far did your mind go?
So a life together, a life as ina committed relationship, which
comes with all the accoutrementof what a committed relationship
is.
(26:02):
So part of this is like hedeserves a chance and we could
have a life together together.
And if we go into that a bitdeeper, it's about, I thought
we'd have a life together.
And the consequence is I'llnever find happiness.
So my question to you, Joash, iswhich of these thoughts would
(26:22):
you identify as your hotthought?
Meaning the one that is mostsalient, the one that's most
prominent, that's driving a lotof the difficult feelings.
Yeah.
It's I'll never find happiness.
Yeah.
Now we're going to go through ashort process of evaluating this
(26:44):
thought.
What is some evidence you havein your dating and relationship
life that supports the idea thatyou'll never find happiness?
I've been dating for three and ahalf years and I've not been
able to have something thatsustained beyond two, maybe
three dates, while other peoplehave been single for far less
(27:07):
time than I have.
And they have went on to merrilyfind their version of happiness.
Is there somebody you'rethinking about in particular?
A friend and also my ex went onto have two significant
relationships after me.
Look, I'm going to come back tothe automatic thoughts,
actually.
(27:28):
because you said something rightnow that made me think that
perhaps I'll never findhappiness is a belief you have,
or it's a scary belief you have.
If we were to add to that, is itI'll never, if you were to say
I'll never find happinessbecause, how would you finish
that sentence?
Because I don't meet theexpectations of what people want
(27:53):
in a relationship.
And what do they want?
Someone who is more masculinehas a more perfect body because
I'm again, furthest away fromthat.
Is this like the Adonis fatiguephysique you're talking about?
Like the broad shoulders, smallwaist, big butt.
Okay.
Let's go back to evidence thatsupports this hot thought that
(28:15):
you'll never find happinessbecause you're not masculine
enough or don't have the Adonisphysique.
Where else do you get evidencethat supports that?
So your friend and your ex, arethey more masculine?
Do they have that physique?
Yeah.
I mean, if you had to look up apicture of Adana's physique,
(28:36):
both of them are those images.
Ah, okay.
Is there any other evidence?
Like, for example, has someonetold you that they would date
you if you were more masculineor had a different physique?
UNKNOWN (28:51):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
So someone in relation to you said, oh, I'm
not really into camp men.
Or, you know, you're cute, butyou're just too femme or
whatever the case is.
Ah, okay.
Okay.
Let's go to the other column.
Now, this one is a bit harder,but just as important.
(29:12):
What is evidence you have thatdoesn't support this idea?
That you'll never find happinessbecause you're not masculine
enough or don't have the Adonisphysique?
Um...
I was in a relationship for 13years with someone who loved me,
whom I loved.
Have you been on dates wherepeople appreciated your fem-ness
(29:36):
or your campiness?
Yeah, I was dating someone wholoved...
Again, it was just like one ortwo dates that we went on who...
thought that my sense of stylewas really interesting and was
fun.
And so he liked that about me.
(29:57):
And my sense of style isanything but heteronormative.
And the same person was alsovery much in love with my body,
you know, everything about mybody.
And so this is, you've been witha couple of guys then, I think
from what I've heard that arereally are in love with your
body, including the guy whoghosted you, right?
(30:19):
Including the fucking guy whogoes to me.
We're going to move over to thenext column, which is the
alternative thought.
Now, alternative thoughts arenot positive affirmations.
A positive affirmation would beeverything happens for a reason.
(30:39):
One day I'll meet the person ofmy dreams.
I don't subscribe to thatbecause I don't think that it
speaks to your experience andwhat you're talking about here.
Alternative thoughts are gonnabe alternatives to what we have
in bold here that says I'llnever find happiness because I'm
(31:00):
not masculine enough and I don'thave the Adonis physique.
So given that we've gone throughthe evidence for and against,
what might an alternativethought be?
is that I will continue to havea very adventurous and fun
dating life.
Okay.
And is there happiness in that?
(31:24):
There is happiness in that, yes.
But it's fleeting happiness andit's situational happiness.
So when people ghost me, Ishould remind myself...
that I need to kiss a thousandtoads before I find a prince.
(31:45):
Yes, that, okay.
And because that is about, notabout what you're lacking, it's
about the process.
When people ghost me, I shouldremind myself that it's not
about something I'm lacking, butrather the process, kiss a
(32:06):
thousand toads.
You also said that you reallywant to get past day two and
three.
And when that doesn't happen andyou're ghosted, what's a helpful
thing to remind yourself of orto tell yourself?
You're a face in a sea of faces.
(32:27):
You're a face in a gallery offaces.
Very often we become disposablewhen you're in that space.
gallery of faces because you'dsimply move on to the next.
So if I don't get past date twoor three, it's often because of
the culture of being disposablein a sea of options.
(32:52):
All right.
So here are our alternativethoughts.
I will continue to have anadventurous dating life.
I can have short periods ofhappiness.
When people ghost me, it's notabout something I'm lacking, but
rather the process.
if I don't get past date two orthree, it's often because of the
culture of being disposable in asea of options.
(33:16):
Now, you've also been comparingyourself to your ex and your
friend.
So I think you've got to putsomething in your alternative
thought that captures that.
So while either people have morerelationships, there's someone
for everyone.
And so...
I may not be the benchmark, butnot everyone likes vanilla.
(33:42):
Yes.
While I do want a relationship,I still really enjoy the whole
dating culture that I'm in rightnow.
The comforting thing about beingrejected is that you're never
going to please 100% of people100% of time.
And I'm okay with that.
(34:04):
Okay, so based on what we'vejust said, tell me what you
think about this.
I can want a long-termrelationship and continue to
enjoy dating life.
Dating also teaches me newthings and it's fair to be upset
about feeling deceived.
Does that speak to you?
Does that capture what you'vejust been saying?
(34:26):
Okay, I'm gonna put that inbold.
When you read that, thatalternative thought, I want you
to think about conjure up thefeeling of being ghosted.
We've all been there, right?
It's painful.
Tell yourself, I want along-term relationship and I
(34:47):
continue to enjoy dating life.
Dating teaches me new things.
And it's fair to be upset rightnow about being deceived.
Does the intensity of beingdeceived matter?
How would you rate it?
We're going back to youroriginal feelings and we're
rating them now.
We're re-rating them.
In this moment, when youmeditate on the alternative
thought, how do you rate theintensity of these feelings?
(35:11):
So deceived is still high upthere because that's still a 10.
Uh-huh, yeah.
Good.
How about rejected?
Five over six.
Confused?
I would say that's still high.
So eight?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And how determined do you feel?
(35:32):
Oh, still a 10, honey.
And infuriated?
I'd probably say maybe about aseven.
Okay.
And anger?
At yourself?
Also about a seven.
Okay.
Despair?
Yeah, like four.
(35:54):
Okay.
And sadness?
Also a four.
Okay.
Vengefulness?
I'll show him.
I would say maybe a five.
Yes.
And your level of frustration?
So I'd still put this at about asix or a seven.
UNKNOWN (36:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
How about feeling used?
About four.
Unworthy?
I would put that at four aswell.
Mm-hmm.
Inadequate?
Four.
And embarrassed?
I would put that at three.
(36:36):
All right.
Are there any new feelings thatare emerging for you?
Hopeful.
Yeah.
Adventurous.
I also wonder if you feel abit...
Oh, okay, yeah.
Hopeful, optimistic.
(36:57):
That's good.
You might actually be feelingworthy.
You're actually, it's not abouthow unworthy do I feel, but
there's a sense of likeworthiness and confidence.
If I said like, how worthy doyou feel next to this person who
short-sightedly ghosted you?
You know, I know I'm worthy ofmany things.
(37:20):
So I would rate my worthinesshigh.
I would put it as a nine or a 10even.
Okay.
And then is there a kind ofrighteousness?
I would say so.
All right.
I'm going to leave it therebecause we were adding new
feelings and that's good.
So, you know, by the time we getto the end of a thought record,
right?
Adding new feelings can behelpful because it means that,
(37:46):
you know, we've gone from thedifficulty of identifying basic
emotions in a situation andexpanded, expanding to creating
space for so many more.
So we've got deceived andrejected and rejected.
It's gone from 10 to a fivedeceived has stayed the same.
(38:07):
Your level of determination isgood, but your resentment and
your vengefulness has gone down.
You've discovered not just thatyou're not unworthy, but that
you are worthy.
You're optimistic, adventurous,hopeful, and you've got a bit of
righteousness, which is healthy.
You're infuriated, frustrated,angry, confused at a similar
(38:32):
level that you were before, butyour sense of feeling used has
gone down.
Your sense of being confused hasgone down a bit.
And then your feelings ofdespair, sadness and
unworthiness went down quite abit and inadequate and
embarrassed went down just atouch.
(38:53):
Have a look at this thoughtrecord and just tell me what are
some of your overallreflections?
So this has articulated thingsthat I've felt but not paid
attention to.
I still have difficulties withmy body and how that manifests
(39:21):
itself in the relationships,dating situations that I find
myself in.
Yeah.
And you know what really stoodout to me, Joash?
It's actually...
it's striking and mind blowingto some degree that in your
mind, you've got this formula.
You have this core belief thatpeople spark with physical
(39:45):
attraction and then they buildsomething deeper.
And forgive me if this is anoverstep or, you know, I've gone
too far, but it seems to me likeyou've built a lot of your gym
routine and emphasis on gym and,around being able to provide the
initial physical attraction sothat something deeper can be
(40:06):
built.
But you discovered with thisperson, Ellie, that there wasn't
a physical spark to begin withand the other things could be
built.
So I think there's a largertakeaway here that the formula
might be different for differentpeople.
(40:29):
The formula can be disrupted oraltered sometimes.
Joes, I'm going to thank you forbeing a guest on CBT Die.
Maybe we'll see you again.
But thank you for going throughthis process.
Take care.
Thank you, Rahim.
Bye.
That's our CBT Shorts episodefor today.
I'm Rahim Thawar, and thank youfor joining us.
(40:50):
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts.
If you want more content fromus, check out our other social
media platforms.
The CBT dive is intended foreducational purposes and not
meant as a replacement fortherapy.
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