June 28, 2022 • 74 mins
We’re all on our individual journeys. That’s what this guest strongly believes. Still, there’s legitimate resentment that comes up when you feel judged by people on dating apps who appear to be well sorted with their nice job titles and cushy bank accounts. In this episode, we conjure up Beyonce to help reframe the feelings of inadequacy that arise when capitalism and grind culture don’t fit for people who are working through trauma and managing symptoms of Adult ADHD–which, of course, are overlooked experiences of responsible adulting.
-
WATCH at thecbtdive.ca
LISTEN wherever you get podcasts!
-
Join my mailing list: affectiveconsult.ca
My socials: ladyativan.com
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
THE CBT DIVE
📸 Instagram: Instagram.com/thecbtdive
🌐 Main Hub
thepoliticizedpractitioner.com
📱 Socials (Follow Me)
- 🧵 Threads: threads.net/the.politicized.practitioner
- 📸 Instagram: instagram.com/the.politicized.practitioner
- 💼 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rahim-thawer
- 🎵 TikTok: tiktok.com/@politicizedpractitioner
- 📘 Facebook: facebook.com/affective.consulting.psychotherapy.services
- ▶️ YouTube: youtube.com/@ThePoliticizedPractiti...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Raheem Thawar, is asocial worker and
(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todiminish Welcome to another
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
episode of the CBT Dive.
Today we have Terence.
Terence Terrence is a specialguest.
I met him on my travels in SouthAfrica.
He is 29 years old, born andraised in Cape Town, identifies
as pansexual.
Some interesting things aboutTerrence are that he is an
(01:12):
overall creative.
He's a published playwright, ascreenwriter, and a drama
teacher.
He has had three significantrelationships in his life.
And the last time I talked tohim, he described them as having
failed and I hope we're going toreframe those today as having
merely ended or served theirpurpose.
(01:34):
Terrence is a person who is inrecovery.
He attends weekly AA meetingsand he shares this information
with us because he's open abouthis recovery journey and he's
felt like the AA meetings are asafe space for where people can
share their experiences withoutreceiving unsolicited advice.
(01:55):
So those have been extremelytherapeutic experiences for him.
Welcome, Terrence.
How are you today?
Hey, good afternoon and first ofall, thank you so much for
having me.
I am stunning.
It's a beautiful sunny day.
When the sun's out, I am alwayshappy, especially in the middle
of winter.
(02:16):
Me too.
Me too.
I am...
Like, if this could be CapeTown's winter every day, I would
be so happy.
I would be so happy.
Yeah.
Well, cherish it because this isan all winter.
Hashtag global warming.
So appreciate it because usuallyCape Town is quite cold in
(02:41):
winter.
Not that you would have beenbothered by it because you are
from a place far colder.
So...
Yeah, you would have probablybeen walking around in it while
we all walk around in trenchcoats.
Listen, I did bring a trenchcoat from back home and I
planned to, I've already worn ittwice.
So, you know, it's notoutrageous.
(03:02):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, look, I just want tofit in, you know.
Terrence, a quick question foryou.
Outside of the AA therapeuticspace, have you accessed other
kinds of therapy before?
I had a counselor that I sawshortly after I became sober,
(03:26):
and she was quite helpful.
I only saw her for a shortperiod of time, and then I felt
like I was in a good enoughspace I didn't need anymore.
So I saw her for about threemonths, and then I felt fine.
And yeah, that's all.
(03:48):
Before I got sober, I had made apractitioner, a TRE
practitioner, trauma releaseexercise is what I think it's
called.
Oh, amazing.
I've done some of that forsobriety also, just checking off
a lot of the bad jujus.
(04:09):
And I found that to be helpfulat the time.
Okay, amazing.
You are steeped in the processof reflection, insight, behavior
change.
So I don't need to tell youthis, but, you know, doing one
(04:30):
thought record is, you know,it's probably not going to be
life changing, but it's one ofthose things that you add to
your toolbox of insight and Andthat would be the goal for us
today, is to gain a little bitmore insight, areas where you
experience a certain intensityof negative or difficult
(04:52):
emotion, we can maybe contain ita bit or reduce its intensity.
Does that sound like areasonable goal for today?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
All right.
I am going to go ahead and sharemy screen.
And...
What you're going to see iscalled a CBT thought record.
(05:15):
Now this thought record is alinear tool.
It's one of the most populartools in cognitive behavioral
therapy, and it allows us towork through a situation, a very
specific situation.
So in our initial call, wetalked about situations that
might bring up difficultfeelings for you.
(05:37):
And we identified that onechallenging situation is when
you're swiping on Tinder.
So you're on this dating app andyou start to become acutely
aware of people's professionsand especially that of younger
guys.
Before we go and analyze thissituation and examine the
(05:57):
feelings and the subsequentthoughts, is there any more
context you want to give us orany more you want to tell us
about relationships, yourintention with dating, Anything
else we need to know about thesetting?
Well, I'm at the point where Iam, and I put it on my profile
(06:21):
also, I'm not necessarilylooking for a relationship.
Rather just, I guess, socialconnections, meeting up for a
drink and going with the flowand just, you know, becoming
maybe just friends or whatever.
Yes.
But definitely not in a space ofwanting relationships.
(06:43):
Okay.
All right.
So your objective for dating is,at the moment, it's about
meeting people.
Is that right?
Yes, yes.
I've found myself, I've foundthat my circle has shrunk.
(07:06):
My circle of friends and I'vemoved in by myself.
So I've put a lot of changes inthat regard.
Yeah, I feel like I need to put,not need to, but want to put
myself out there and make a fewmore queer friends, essentially.
Absolutely.
(07:26):
I can appreciate that.
So let's dive right in.
When you think about thissituation or you recall this
situation, because it's areoccurring one, right?
It's not one difficult momentyou had.
It's a recurring thing.
Tell me about some of thefeelings that come up when
you're aware of people'sprofessions.
SPEAKER_02 (07:52):
So I'd say, yeah, first off,
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
investment.
There's embarrassment.
There's resentment.
Yeah, resentment.
There's frustration.
(08:16):
And there's anger.
And yeah, that's necessarily howI feel towards, you know, the
strangers.
who I don't know, but a lot ofit's internal towards myself.
(08:37):
Of course, yeah.
Look, this is a good list offeelings that have come up, and
it wasn't too hard for you toidentify them, which is good.
So we've got embarrassed,resentful, frustration, or
frustrated and angry.
I'm going to ask...
(08:58):
about a couple more feelings,because sometimes it's nice to
thicken it up a little bit, orto fill the bucket, as it were.
So let me know if any of thesefeelings resonate with you.
Sadness?
(09:19):
Yeah, there's a degree ofsadness, basically.
Curiosity?
No.
No?
Is there any?
This feels like I'm going on thepositive side, but I am curious
if there's any excitement oroptimism?
(09:44):
No.
You're like, no.
How dare you?
Okay, okay.
What about the other end of thatspectrum?
Cynicism or skepticism?
It's nihilism.
I'll put that down.
(10:05):
I mean, that is, I don't know ifnihilism is a feeling, but I
guess, you know, we'll go withit.
How about ashamed or inadequate?
Inadequate.
Inadequate is a nice one.
I think ashamed goes withembarrassment.
(10:28):
Definitely there is inadequacy.
Okay.
Is there any worry or fear oranxiety?
There is anxiety.
There is definitely anxiety.
Okay.
(10:49):
There is fear as well, yes.
There's fear.
Okay.
Anything else?
No, I can't think of it anymore.
(11:13):
I'm just thinking, I'm trying toimagine, like, I know this
feeling to some degree, like theone where we are swiping.
And if it all felt bad, I feellike we wouldn't necessarily do
it.
But sometimes hidden in there isa kind of longing that comes
with, like if we're seeking orlooking for something, you know,
(11:36):
we're not necessarily doingresearch, but we're longing for
connection.
Yeah, there's a degree.
I think you had mentionedearlier, there is a degree of
excitement when one swipesbecause it's, You know, there's
that hope.
There's hope.
There's excitement and there'shope.
(11:57):
Hoping that you, you know, youfind a match.
And there's an excitement of,ooh, this profile will be like
me.
So, yeah.
It's not all.
Yes, look, even if theexcitement is the smallest slice
of The pie chart, when it comesto your feelings and the
situation, it's still worthputting down.
(12:19):
So I've added excitement andhope.
All right, I'm going to readthrough the feelings one more
time.
So you're swiping on Tinder,feeling acutely aware of
people's professions, especiallyyounger guys.
Your feeling list, embarrassed,resentful, frustrated, angry,
sad, nihilistic or nihilism,inadequate, anxiety or anxious,
(12:39):
fear, excitement, hope.
Does that cover the gamut offeelings?
I think that covers it ratheraccurately.
We couldn't do any more feelingsif we tried.
Our next task is to rate each ofthese emotions on a scale of 1
(13:01):
to 10.
And you're rating them forintensity.
So 10 is the most intense thatyou feel it in this particular
situation, and one would be notintense at all.
But, you know, they're in avery, very small quantity.
So how would you rateembarrassment?
(13:24):
I'd say a seven.
Okay.
And resentful?
An eight.
Frustration or frustrated?
Also an eight.
Angry.
Seven.
Sadness.
(13:47):
I'd say a three.
A three, did you say?
Yes.
Okay.
Nihilism.
Currently a seven.
Wow.
Okay.
Inadequate or inadequacy.
(14:09):
Anxiety.
Six.
Fear.
Five.
Excitement.
Five.
I thought you were going to dofour, three, two.
(14:32):
Okay.
And hope.
Hope.
Okay.
So you've done a great job sofar.
You've expanded your corefeelings to include some other
(14:53):
ones.
That doesn't mean those otherones are like positive.
It's not like you left out abunch of positive ones, but I
think we're getting a bettersense of the depth of this
experience.
So when you're swiping and youfeel this range of things, What
do you tend to do?
We're in the next column herethat says behavior.
Do you keep swiping?
(15:14):
Do you stop?
Do you go for a jog?
Do you have a snack?
Do you send angry messages topeople?
What do you do?
It ranges.
So there are times when thoughtsare fleeting.
(15:35):
These are essentially...
intrusive thought so and I'mable to recognize that so I try
to not ponder too much butobviously there are days where
they affect me more than othersso yeah on those days actually
I'm currently I don't have theapp I deleted it so I go through
(15:57):
these phases where I'll deleteit entirely so I don't just log
out I will delete it other timesI just close it I try to put it
as far away from my home screenas possible so that it's a
mission to kind of get therebecause I also find when I
procrastinate, then I want to goon there.
And usually I'm procrastinatingbecause I'm supposed to be doing
(16:18):
work.
So when I, and then when Iprocrastinate, I'm aware of the
fact that I'm procrastinating.
So I feel frustrated withmyself.
Then I go through thisexperience and I feel even more
negative.
So it's just the cycle.
So, um, I, uh, Yeah, on the dayswhen it really affects me badly,
(16:38):
I try to, I really do like aconcerted effort in trying to
get back to work because, youknow, it's never like, okay, I'm
going to sit and I'm going toTinder.
You know, I don't think Tinderpeople ever sit down and say
like, this is now my like Tinderhour.
I think it usually happens inthose moments when you're bored,
you're procrastinating, you'rewaiting for your bus or
(17:01):
whatever.
So in those moments, I try toget my mind kind of going
towards something that I shouldbe doing instead to kind of just
channel some positive thoughtsinstead.
All right.
But there are those days whenit's harder, where I get wrapped
(17:23):
up in these thoughts.
And that's something that's beenhappening a lot lately and what
I've been struggling with themost.
So I'm just going to read outthe behavior.
So our listeners, especiallyfolks who are just doing the
audio, can get a sense of allthe things you've mentioned
here.
Because it's a good range ofstrategies.
So you recognize that you'reprocrastinating work tasks.
(17:48):
That's part of why you're onTinder.
So you want to contain theprocrastination of work by
switching back to some prioritytasks.
Then you...
Employ this strategy where youclose the app and put it far
away from your home screen.
There's other times that youdelete the app entirely.
Overall, you're also thinkingabout ways to manage intrusive
(18:12):
thoughts that you'reexperiencing.
So tell me about the intrusivethoughts.
Now we're moving to the nextcolumn, which is called
automatic thoughts.
These are things that, you know,you don't have to work real hard
to come up with.
They pop into your mind.
What are those thoughts in thissituation?
Well, I mean, yeah, first ofall, it's the feelings.
(18:36):
It's a lot of the, if I canrelate them to the feelings
list, you know, it's thoughts ofinadequacy, feeling like I'm not
good enough, feeling like I am afailure.
Yeah, it's a negative voice thatsays, yeah, you're not good
(18:58):
enough.
your failure, feelings ofhopelessness.
Hopelessness around?
Relationships or careers?
Career, yeah.
So this is more careers asopposed to relationships.
Okay.
And so you're thinking...
(19:20):
So...
Help us understand here.
So I hear these thoughts thatI'm not good enough and I'm a
failure.
When you're comparing yourself,help me understand a bit more
about what is being compared.
Because when I read out yourbio, you sound...
(19:43):
like you're kicking ass.
You're, you know, you're apublished playwright.
You're a drama teacher.
You're a writer.
I know, I happen to know, youknow, from our conversations
that you do these cool, like,voiceover things for lots of
shows and films.
So, you know, as somebody who'sjust meeting you, your work life
(20:04):
sounds kind of cool.
So tell me where you don't feellike it's so good or what
doesn't feel so good.
Okay, yeah.
So on paper, I can fullyunderstand that.
So I will also just need toclarify, I'm not an active drama
teacher at the moment.
I used to be a drama teacher.
(20:24):
So where it comes in is at 29, Istill don't have full financial
independence.
I still...
received some financialassistance from my guardians for
my semi-adopted parents and soit's a pride it's an ego thing
(20:49):
you know society has and it's sosilly because I know it's it's
society's standards and I don'tneed to follow those standards
in a privileged position that Iam able to still receive help
while I try and figure out andnavigate.
But yeah, society has kind of, Iguess, led a lot of us to
believe that, you know, by theage of 30, you should have
(21:11):
accomplished X, Y, Z and youshould have this and this
savings and you need...
So because that is the standardthat I've identified and
recognized and I don't feel likeI'm there.
So these feelings...
of inadequacy creep when I seeother people that are there,
even though I don't knowanything about them.
I know it's really silly, butyeah, I don't know anything
(21:33):
about their life.
I don't know anything abouttheir struggles, but I see this
profession and they've done thisand they're doing this and
working for this company andimmediately I'm just like, well,
so it also brings me back to whyit is.
So I have a job, but it's not avery stimulating job.
So I work as a translator.
(21:55):
at a dubbing studio where wetranslate Turkish shows into
Afrikaans, which is one of thelanguages here in South Africa.
So I don't speak Turkish.
So the company gets that havebeen translated from Turkish to
English.
I just translate the Englishscripts to Afrikaans.
(22:15):
So it's a simple job.
It's not difficult.
And it includes a form ofwriting, but it's not so much.
I don't really get anopportunity to be creative.
It's more technical.
Yeah, it's not very creative.
It's more technical because it'smore about trying to...
Turkish is a very dynamiclanguage.
(22:37):
Afrikaans is the opposite.
So what people...
A three-syllable sentence inTurkish would require seven
syllables in Afrikaans.
And I was trying to find thesetranslations and trying to find
ways to make it all work and fitin and keep the meaning of the
story.
So there's a technical elementto it.
(23:00):
So it's a job that becomes quitetedious sometimes.
And when I started, it was nice,it was fine, but I'm just
finding myself at a place whereI'm not very stimulated at the
moment.
And I'm doing this while I'm sobusy with a few creative things.
I'm busy writing a feature film,busy writing a short film, and
(23:21):
busy working on a theatre play.
So I am doing these creativethings, but I do find that I'm
not as passionate as I used tobe, so I'm feeling a And so all
those things kind of like muddleinto one that adds to this whole
sense of existentialism.
(23:42):
Okay.
I'm going to pause you there fora second.
You, you've said a lot of reallyhelpful things in terms of like
helping me understand whereyou're coming from.
Okay.
So the creative parts of yourlife, So not the translation
job.
I guess that sounded cool to me,but you're saying it's not
stimulating, it's tedious.
(24:02):
So I hear you.
The other creative things.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
The creative things aren't whatis tedious.
It's the translating job.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
I get that.
The creative jobs aren't givingme money at the moment.
So I think that's the crux of itall.
(24:23):
That's okay.
So I just wanted to, that'sexactly what I wanted to get to.
So are you finding enough timefor the creative work or is the
paid work getting in the way ofthe creative work?
The paid work is getting in theway of the creative work.
Okay.
So I'm going to, I'm just goingto write this out here.
(24:45):
My paid work gets paid.
in the way of my creative workand your creative work is the
thing you love.
And if you're, if you, let's saymagically you didn't have to do
the paid work and you couldfocus a lot on the creative
(25:07):
work, which from what Iunderstand would pay off in
monies later on, potentially ifyou did it.
Yeah.
And if you didn't, if you, ifyou could devote more time to
it, would you feel better aboutbeing on Tinder or Grindr or
whatever it is?
Like, would you feel moreaccomplished?
(25:29):
Would you feel like you'recomparing yourself less
negatively to others?
Well, and I don't know if I'mjumping ahead here.
I'm currently, it's a questionthat I've asked myself.
I was unhappy with this job.
You should leave it.
And I asked myself, well, whatis it that you want to do?
So, Devoting all my time to mycraft and my writing and
(25:53):
creating didn't necessarilyresult in financial stability in
the short term.
It could open doors and createopportunities later down the
road, but in the short term, notso much.
And so I asked myself, This iswhat you want to do.
And I'm kind of finding myselfin a space where I actually
(26:14):
can't answer that, where I feellike I've kind of lost my
passion and my drive a bit.
And I think that also results ina feeling of loss career-wise
because this thing that I alwaysthought I wanted, I'm not so
sure I want anymore.
But then I don't actually knowwhat it is in that I want.
So there's a lot of confusionthere.
(26:36):
as well on top of everything sowhen i talk about comparing
myself on tinder it's not it umyeah i don't get i don't want to
say i get intimidated by this bythis by this profile that is in
angie's job it's not so muchit's actually not so much about
this other person's much moreabout me and my own feelings
when i see this um yeah when isee when i see that because i
(26:59):
want to be successful in what Iwant to feel good about what it
is that I'm doing, and I don'tat the moment, and I don't know
what it is that I need to do tomake me feel good, if that makes
sense.
So, okay.
I'm a bit lost career-wise, andI don't feel good about what I'm
(27:22):
doing at the moment.
Now, you did say that...
On the one hand, there is acomparative element.
You compare yourself to theseother people, but it's not like
you're saying, I want what theyhave.
(27:42):
You're more saying, no, you'remore like, I want to have, I
assume they've got some kind ofhappiness and I want to have
that too.
Yes, that is kind of it.
So I think other guys havesuccess and happiness, and I
(28:05):
want that too.
All right, let's go back to thefirst couple things you had
said, which was I am not goodenough and I am a failure.
Those are bold things to say,and they were the first things
that came out of your mouth.
So when you say I'm not goodenough, is that– Is that in
(28:30):
terms of the money in your bankaccount?
Is that in terms of yourcapacity for dating?
What is that about?
Tell me more.
In what way are you not goodenough?
And in whose eyes?
Whew.
(28:51):
This is actually the first timeI've had to confront this
thought, to be very frank.
When it's in your head, it'sdifferent when someone else asks
you this question.
And I realize it's quite ahectic thing, it's an intense
thing to think about myself.
And I'm now sitting here and I'mlike, shit.
UNKNOWN (29:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
I feel like
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
I've accomplished a lot of things.
I definitely have.
I acknowledge that I've wonawards.
I have been nominated forthings.
I've been finalist in things.
I've published plays.
The work is respected.
(29:41):
I have a very high standard formyself in the sense that I know
what I'm capable of And I'venever reached that standard
because I've always gotten alongwith doing the bare minimum.
I feel like I've managed tobamboozle people.
I mean, I shouldn't be sayingthis aloud, but I'm going to.
(30:05):
The draft of my play, that'sonly the second draft.
I spent almost no time trying towork on it.
I mean, the story was goodenough.
And that's what I've kind of,kind of always I'm one of those
people that leave things to thelast minute so when I deadline I
would leave it to the lastminute and that's where I thrive
(30:29):
but you know that's not how Iwant to as an artist I want to
do things differently but I'vejust always struggled with time
management and with executivefunctioning generally speaking
time management task managementprioritizing etc so
procrastinating I have ADHD.
So, yeah, I'm on stimulantmedication now, but I haven't
(30:52):
always been, and that's been areal struggle.
So when I say I'm not goodenough, it's good enough in my
own eyes because I know theability I have, and I've kind of
been relying on just naturaltalent.
And I am talented, without adoubt, that much I know, but I'm
not a hard worker, and I want tobe one.
And so I...
(31:18):
And being a failure is a failurein the sense that, yeah, and I
hate to say this stupidcapitalistic society that we
live in, but yes, it is afinancial where I hate the fact
that I sleep financialassistance, but that also is not
entirely my fault.
It's also just the arts in thiscountry is not respected.
(31:41):
Opportunities are, there are fewopportunities, but I also know
that I, I should be workingharder.
I should be trying to findthings and putting work and
effort into my life.
And I would, but now the trickypart comes in that I'm currently
in the same existential crisiswhere I don't know what it is
(32:03):
that I want to do.
So I feel like I've got thispotential to put in all this
effort and work.
And I feel like I just needsomebody with the answers to
just be like, hey, why don't youwant to do that?
Because I honestly do not know.
Okay.
I'm just rearranging some ofyour thoughts here because
(32:23):
there's a lot of them andthey're all poignant, right?
They're all so relevant andthey're really getting me to
think as well about the systemwe live in.
So you say, I struggle withexecutive function and task
management.
So that is a barrier youexperience.
(32:44):
But then you say, I'm not a hardworker.
And that's where we get, I'm notgood enough, I'm a failure, I
should be working harder.
So when you say you're not ahard worker, is that because
you've gotten by at some pointdoing the bare minimum or
because you did something lastminute as opposed to giving it
(33:07):
your full effort?
Is that why you say that?
The prior case, I feel like I'vegotten by with, yeah, I've
gotten by with with last minutethings and doing the bare
minimum.
And it's tricky because, like Isaid, it's like there's this
(33:28):
part of me that wants to workand wants to put in the effort,
but I get this block.
It's this wall.
I can't describe it.
It's a wall where everyintention of wanting to, but I
can't.
I just, you know, and that's afrustration that I struggle
with.
is that I know the potentialthat I have, but this wall is
(33:53):
there, and I struggle to breakthrough it.
Okay.
So if you have a block that youcan't push through, what do you
think that says about you?
Or what do you think that thatsays about your future?
(34:13):
Because I think there's a deeperfear or anxiety there.
Yeah, well, I mean, yes, that'swhere the anxiety comes in
because I have this fear that,you know, I'm heading into a
point in my life where I findkind of like I need to sort of
think stability and I just feellike it's never going to come.
(34:36):
And I have a fear that this warwill always be an issue and that
this is kind of where thenihilism comes in because I'm
like, well, what is the point?
if no matter how hard I try, I'mjust always going to run into
this wall.
And that maybe even if I changeindustries, if I change jobs, if
(35:00):
I change, you know, that I'llkeep running into the wall.
Okay.
I'm just writing some of thatout.
So I've gotten by with doing thebare minimum, but I want to
(35:20):
work.
but have a block, right?
And we're describing the blockas this wall.
And the consequence of that oryour fear is that I'll never
have stability or the wall willalways be an issue.
Or I don't know what the pointof trying is if I keep coming up
against the wall.
(35:41):
When you say you've gotten bywith doing the bare minimum, Is
there some meaning you draw fromthat?
Is that where you say you're nota hard worker because you've
gotten by doing the bareminimum?
Yes.
Ah, okay.
(36:01):
I'm going to move over to someof the other things you had
mentioned.
When you talk about your...
you not necessarily beingcompletely financially
independent, if people you werelooking to go on dates with, if
(36:23):
they found out about that or ifyou shared that with them, what
do you think they would thinkabout you?
I think most people wouldn'tcare.
I honestly think most otherpeople wouldn't care.
(36:43):
What do you think about that?
What does it say about you?
To me, that makes me feel...
Well, that's where my feelingsof feeling like a failure stem
(37:04):
from, is from that and...
Yeah, it's my pride,essentially, that makes me feel
then less than and inadequate.
(37:29):
That's how I feel about it.
Yeah.
But I don't think most peoplewould care.
When you talk about pride andyou also talk about these
specific milestones, age 29, I'mon my way to 30, this is what
should be the case.
(37:51):
If it's not the case, does itmean that I'm not properly an
adult?
Is that the thought or thebelief?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm going to write that down.
I'm not properly an adult.
And if you're not properly anadult, what does that mean in
(38:13):
terms of your capacity formaking decisions, employment,
and being in relationships?
Is there an impact?
Well, definitely.
That's one of the reasons why I,at this point in time, don't
want a relationship anymore.
(38:35):
I feel like there's a lot ofinternal work that I need to do
and I need to figure out.
And, and I'm, I'm aware of allof these thoughts and I don't
want to go with all of thisuncertainty into a relationship
and take all that baggage with.
So, yeah, let's go slow here fora minute.
So you're no, because I knowyou're aware of, I know you're
(38:55):
very aware of all the thingsthat are going on, but yeah, I
think we're getting to somethingthat maybe we haven't yet
articulated.
So I'm not properly an adult andtherefore I'm not ready for a
relationship.
Or if I bring this into arelationship, what will happen?
Help me connect that.
(39:19):
So it's not necessarily justthese things.
I feel like I have a lot ofbaggage.
also related to past traumas.
And so I feel like I need todeal with the traumas first
(39:47):
before I can fully, I feel like,embrace another person.
On the surface level, I lovemyself.
I respect myself.
But I feel like I feel likesubconsciously my inner child is
still dealing with a lot of shitfrom my childhood, like being
(40:08):
abandoned, losing my parents ata young age.
And so there's a lot of thosethings that still need to be
resolved.
And I've kind of made thedecision that I've come to the
realization that I need to dealwith those things first before I
can get into a relationship.
(40:30):
because I feel like it would beunfair to cut all this baggage.
And my past relationships andwhat I call them fail is because
I feel like it started offgreat.
There's the honeymoon phase andthen, yeah, and then things just
fall apart and they're mostly myfault.
(40:53):
Okay.
In all three relationships, ifyou feel like the ending was
predominantly or primarily yourfault, what was it that you
weren't able to do or that youdid do or that you did say that
(41:17):
contributed to the end or to thefailure?
So there's a person where At thebeginning of the relationship, I
was one to ask each three ofthese people out.
So I recognized there was aconnection.
I was like, ooh, we should date.
(41:39):
And then there was thisintensity for the beginning
phase.
And then comes an uncertainty.
where I'm like, oh, should Ihave made the right decision?
Should I have been in arelationship with this person?
I don't know if I really do likethis person.
And with two of them, you know,I got to the point where we said
we love one another.
And then I get to the pointwhere I then demonize them and I
(42:06):
then start treating them.
And this is unconscious.
This is just me.
This is in reflection.
And that's why I call them fell.
In reflection, I realized Istarted...
find fault in them and sort ofhave to be worse than they are.
I almost had a reason to leavethem or a reason to
(42:26):
self-destruct in a sense.
Okay, okay.
So if I were to give thatpattern a word, it might be...
It might be about...
sabotaging the relationship orfear of being trapped or
(42:50):
something like that.
That's what I'm getting fromthat pattern.
Do either of those fit?
Would you say that you werefeeling trapped or that you were
sabotaging it?
Yeah, I got to a point where Ifelt trapped, where I felt
suffocated and I felt...
(43:12):
Yeah, I felt like I didn't wantto be with this person anymore.
And then there was a lot ofguilt around it because I felt
like I was the one who initiatedthings.
Okay.
So there's a new thoughtemerging here.
And it's a thought that has todo with the story you're telling
(43:33):
me, which is, of course, adifferent situation than...
swiping through Tinder, but I'llwrite it out and you let me know
if it fits.
So I'm thinking one of your moresubconscious thoughts includes
or is I'm not relationshipready.
(44:02):
I'll feel And then I'll sabotageit.
This is because...
Oh, wait.
(44:25):
And I'm going to copy this parthere.
Okay.
These seem to be two, I mean,these are more than just one
thought, right?
But I'm not relationship ready.
I'll feel trapped and then I'llsabotage it.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially more stable first.
It sounds to me like these arethe different pieces that are
(44:47):
going on in your mind.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So there's a lot here.
Okay.
Terrence, I'm going to read outsome of your automatic thoughts,
(45:12):
including the ones that I'veadded in or I've organized as
you've talked.
And what I want you to do is Iwant you to think about this
particular experience on Tinder.
So you've told me we've gone intwo directions.
We've gone in the direction ofyour past relationships and And
(45:33):
we've gone in the direction ofhow you feel about your career.
Tinder is a place where thesethings come together.
So let's find one automaticthought or one statement here
that you feel is most prominentand it's driving a lot of the
(45:57):
difficult feelings.
Does that make sense?
So we're going to pick one thatyou think is like the main one.
So I struggle with executivefunction and task management.
I'm not a hard worker.
I'm not good enough.
I'm a failure.
I should be working harder.
I've gotten by with doing thebare minimum, but I want to
(46:18):
work, but I have a block.
I'll never have stability.
The wall will always be anissue.
I don't know what the point oftrying is if I keep coming up
against the wall.
I'm still struggling withfinancial independence at age
29.
I'm not properly an adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
(46:40):
I need to do trauma work and bemore financially stable first.
I'm not relationship ready.
I'll feel trapped and then I'llsabotage it.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially more stable first.
Of these, what stands out to youas really capturing the
difficult feelings you have?
SPEAKER_02 (47:01):
I'd
SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
say that I'm struggling with financial
independence at age 29.
I'm not probably an adult.
And I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially more stable first.
I'd say that whole section.
That whole section.
Okay.
So what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to highlight these parts.
Let's say I'm not properly anadult.
(47:41):
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially stable first.
Okay.
So now I'll tell you now.
That is a very loaded thought,and it's more than one thought.
But because we're only doing onesession, we only have one kick
(48:03):
at the can, so to speak.
So in a more typical cognitivebehavioral therapy treatment or
setting, we would break this inand do multiple thought records.
But here we're going to takethis whole thought, this whole
big thought, and we're going towork with it.
(48:25):
I'm not properly an adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially stable first.
Those are three major thoughts.
Now, can you give me someevidence that supports that
thought?
We're going to call it the hotthought.
It's the one that's mostsalient.
So you could even give meevidence that supports each
(48:45):
piece of it.
So evidence that supports you'renot properly an adult.
You've told me that, right?
Not financially independent.
Yeah.
What's evidence that you're notfit to be in a relationship?
(49:07):
My history of sabotagingrelationships.
Okay, so my history ofsabotaging relationships.
Yeah.
All right.
(49:27):
Just working on my spellinghere.
And so you have done some traumawork.
And has it made you better insome of your relationships,
whether they're romantic, casualdating or friendships?
UNKNOWN (49:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:53):
I wouldn't...
I mean, it's been...
I haven't really done traumawork, first of all.
A lot of it has beenself-reflection.
That's okay.
Self-realization.
So I've definitely gained a lotof clarity and I've had a few
(50:16):
realizations and epiphanies.
But I wouldn't say...
that actively and it's been toosoon for me to see a difference
in my relationship but I am veryself-aware a lot of the time you
are and so in being self-awareand doing therapeutic
(50:40):
self-reflection and even Youknow, being in recovery, like
you're not drinking anymore,right?
Has that shifted the way you'reable to be in connection with
people?
Well, yes.
My sobriety has become worth asense of awareness of myself.
(51:01):
I mean, one really positive partof it is that I feel like I know
who I am.
Um, I have a betterunderstanding of, of, of myself
and I continuously, um, I'mlearning new things about
myself.
Um, this is, and yeah, itdefinitely shaped, I guess, the
way I perceive relationshipsand, and, um, yeah, I think if I
(51:26):
wasn't sober, I'd probably stilljust be calling for the, you
know, someone off the first dateand, and telling them I love
them after a month.
or whatever, not being sure whatthat word means.
I think also something that hashappened is I've re-evaluated
(51:47):
what it means and realized thatI've used it quite frivolously
and I had a misunderstanding ofit that at the time I was
certain that's what it was, butre-evaluating it with a more
clear mind, I've I've come to anunderstanding of what that word
truly means.
(52:08):
So, yeah, my newfound clarityhas definitely helped.
Okay.
So here's evidence that supportsyour hot thought.
One, I'm not financiallyindependent, right?
And like it or not, that's howyou've constructed in your mind
what adulthood is.
So you say, I'm not properly anadult.
I say, why?
You say, I'm not financiallyindependent.
(52:29):
I won't argue with it.
That becomes a kind of evidencethat supports that thought.
The other big thought here isI'm not fit to be in a
relationship.
What's the evidence?
Well, my history of sabotagingrelationships.
If somebody said, hey, Terrence,do you think you need to sort
out your trauma while you're ina relationship?
Or is it a prerequisite?
(52:50):
You might say, okay, well, myevidence here is that my
therapeutic self-reflection andmy sobriety has helped me with
understanding myself, which ofcourse would be better for a
future relationship.
And also, If I wasn't sober, andthe way you do seek current
therapy is, you know, you go toyour AA meetings.
(53:10):
So if you weren't in that space,you'd be in unhealthy
relationship patterns.
So all of this evidence supportsthe way you've been thinking,
right?
Now, I want you to come up withsome evidence that does not
support these ideas.
(53:31):
So give me some evidence thatyou are properly an adult um so
i'm an adult when i do whatwe're an adult when i pay my
balls um uh i'm an adult when ium when i'm I'm looking for
(54:02):
work.
I'm looking for jobs.
That's where I currently
SPEAKER_02 (54:07):
am.
Picking up.
Picking employment.
SPEAKER_01 (54:18):
Taking the time to self-reflect and to grow.
I think that internally, yeah.
Okay, so I'm an adult when I paymy bills, seek employment,
invest in personal development.
And if I may add, when you stickwith the job that feels tedious
(54:38):
because it pays your bills.
Yeah.
That doesn't bring you joy, butthat's adulting, isn't it?
Yeah, that is adulting 101.
Okay.
So...
When you say you're not fit tobe in a relationship, give me
(55:02):
some evidence that suggests youare fit to be in a relationship.
A strong sense ofself-awareness.
SPEAKER_02 (55:18):
And
SPEAKER_01 (55:24):
how does that help in a relationship?
Well, I think when there isconflict, I think it's good that
you, yeah.
(55:46):
Yep.
And this idea that you need todo more trauma work or you need
to be more financially stable asprerequisites for a
(56:06):
relationship.
I want you to challenge thatjust a touch.
I'm not saying go on acompletely different path, but
is there some evidence in yourlife that relationships are
possible and other people willbe interested in you even when
you haven't done the trauma workor you're not super financially
stable?
(56:28):
Oh, definitely.
I mean, all my pastrelationships happened when
neither of those things, when Iwasn't financially stable, when
I hadn't worked in my pasttrauma.
So, yeah, I think someone wouldbe more open.
(56:52):
I don't think those are factorsthat would deter anyone.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm just going to write lotsof people were into me before,
right?
So lots, lots and lots.
All right.
So you've got this amalgamatedhot thought.
(57:15):
I'm not properly an adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially stable before I'm in
a relationship, right?
And then you've got evidencethat supports that idea.
And then you've got evidencethat does not.
And the evidence that does notsays, well, I'm an adult
already.
When I pay my bills, seekemployment, invest in personal
(57:35):
development and stick with atedious job.
I have a strong sense ofself-awareness.
That's a relationship quality.
It helps me resolve conflict.
And I don't necessarily need todo a bunch of things before I'm
relationship ready.
Lots of people were into mebefore and I didn't have
financial stability then.
And I wasn't doing any traumawork then.
(57:58):
So look, What I'd like for youto do now is come up with an
alternative thought, somethingalternative while you're swiping
on Tinder specifically, andyou're looking at these guys'
professions, and you're thinkingto yourself, I'm not properly an
adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
(58:18):
What can you say to yourself inresponse to the hot thought?
Something that's a bit moreaffirming, but balanced.
I think the thing that I havealready tried or tried to remind
myself of is the fact that we'reall on an individual journey.
(58:45):
And what does that mean for thepeople you meet on Tinder?
Well, I mean, this is morerelated to the comparisons that
I'm making.
(59:06):
Yes.
And so if people are on anindividual journey, I just want
you to go a bit deeper.
So the people who've got thefancy jobs and presumably
cushioned bank accounts, whatdoes that mean?
Like, what is their journey iwant to say we all yeah what it
(59:30):
means is that i don't knownecessarily um the i'm seeing a
very i don't know necessarilywhat it is that they have had
maybe they had a privileged lifeand um i mean i have my own
privileges but i also struggledquite a lot I have mental health
(59:56):
issues.
I have my ADHD.
So for all I know, they've hadit quite easy.
And they've had it, yeah,they've just had a slightly
different life and they've madedifferent choices.
And that's impacted the lifethat they're living now.
(01:00:17):
Okay.
So we're all on an individualjourney.
People with nice job titles.
may have a different struggle.
Is that right?
Yes.
And how would they think aboutyou?
Would they understand you as anadult?
Do you think they would see youas being fit to be in a
(01:00:41):
relationship?
Yeah, I just think so.
What would they appreciate aboutyou?
Or how would they arrive at thisidea that, hey, Terrence maybe
doesn't earn the amount I do ordoesn't have the kind of job
title I have, but he's a goodbloke.
I'd date him.
What would get them there?
(01:01:02):
I mean, I think the thing I'mmost proud of is my sense of
self-awareness.
My sense of self-awareness, mypersonality.
I like to think that I am a kindperson, an understanding person,
(01:01:26):
empathetic person.
I feel a lot of good qualitiesthat make me a decent human
being.
Yeah.
So what I've written here isother guys will, and in
brackets, will have toappreciate my self-awareness and
personality and empathy, right?
UNKNOWN (01:01:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:49):
And do you think that you're worthy of a
relationship even if you haven'tdone the trauma work?
Or if your old pattern were toshow up while you attempted to
date somebody, do you have newtools that you might use to deal
with that or to interrupt thatcycle?
(01:02:09):
Yeah, well, I definitely thinkthat I'm worthy.
Without a doubt, it's just acase of maybe not being ready as
opposed to being worthy.
And yes, I do think I have somuch more self-awareness now
(01:02:33):
than I had before that I feellike I'd be able to identify
these patterns now and toapproach them in a different
manner.
Well, not approach them in adifferent manner, just approach
them as I haven't everapproached them before.
Whilst in a relationship.
(01:02:56):
Okay.
Give me one sec here.
Okay.
So I'm worthy of relationships,just perhaps not ready.
If I were in one now, I'dapproach things differently than
(01:03:16):
I have in the past.
Now, Terrence, if somebody says,or somebody is put off or not
that interested in you becauseon paper, you're not
accomplished in the ways thatthey are with this, you know,
the job titles, the profession,what do you tell yourself?
(01:03:39):
What can you say to help youcombat that or to put that into
perspective?
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:52):
I mean,
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:00):
I would think it's unreasonable for this person to
think that because that's justone part of me.
Well, saying that a lot makes merealize that I've been
unreasonable.
Yeah, it would be...
(01:04:21):
And then I think I'd go back to,to I guess the journey thing
about, you know, we are all onour own different journeys and
we all have had differentstruggles and all currently
maybe struggle from differentthings and different hurdles
that some have that othersdon't.
And if it's, if they're judgingyou unreasonably, are they a
(01:04:45):
good candidate to be in arelationship with you?
No.
Because then you're notrejecting...
They're not rejecting you.
You're rejecting them.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
(01:05:06):
So I've written here, if I'mjudged by others about my
career, that would beunreasonable.
I don't want to be with themthen.
Or I don't want to be with themanyway.
We've got four...
really strong alternativethoughts.
I'm going to read them out.
And as I do, I want you to thinkabout which one rings most true
(01:05:28):
to you, but also like not justmost true, but which one do you
believe in?
What do you find most helpful inyour body?
Okay.
So we're all on an individualjourney.
People with nice job titles mayhave a different struggle.
Other guys will have toappreciate my self-awareness,
personality, and empathy.
(01:05:50):
I'm worthy of relationships,just perhaps not ready.
If I were in one now, I'dapproach things differently than
I have in the past.
If I'm judged by others about mycareer, that would be
unreasonable.
I don't want to be with themanyway.
This will be the first one.
The first one.
(01:06:10):
All right.
So I'm going to put that inbold.
We're all on an individualjourney.
People with nice job titlesmight have a different struggle.
And then if they don't have adifferent struggle, if they've
had everything handed to them,then we revert back down to the
last one.
If you're being judged, thenthey're not for you.
(01:06:33):
So as you think about thesealternative thoughts, but
particularly the first one, Iwant you to just meditate on it
for a moment.
Think about yourself scrollingthrough Tinder or swiping on
Tinder.
And you really embrace this ideathat you're on individual
journeys.
How would you rate yourintensity of embarrassment?
(01:06:56):
Three, two, two.
Okay.
How about resentful?
One.
Okay.
What about frustrated?
One.
Angry?
(01:07:18):
one sad one okay nihilism oneinadequate
SPEAKER_02 (01:07:35):
one
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:38):
anxious
SPEAKER_02 (01:07:45):
one fear
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:51):
Excitement.
Hope.
Did you say eight?
Okay, cool.
(01:08:12):
So you completed the thoughtrecord.
Are there any new feelings thatcome up for you as you embrace
the alternative thought?
A sense of hope, to be frank.
Yeah.
In realizing that I think a lotof my thoughts have been
(01:08:36):
unreasonable.
And yeah, I'm being reminded ofthe fact that we're all on our
individual journeys, itdefinitely gives me more hope
(01:08:56):
and kind of flips the switch andmakes me look at it with a
completely different lens.
Yeah.
Look, I'm looking at yourthought record here and your
ratings are And so as a result,the intensity of a lot of these
feelings whittled down quite abit.
(01:09:18):
However, if you reflected onthis and you thought, well, my
sadness actually goes up alittle bit, that would also make
sense, you know, because whenyou think about comparing
yourself to others, you know,Yes, we're all on individual
journeys.
(01:09:39):
Yes, people with nice job titlesalso have other kinds of
struggles.
But do we live in a classist,elitist world?
Sure.
Are you going to meet jerks onthe internet?
Like 1,000%.
But your self-awareness seems tohave taken you to a place where
you're actually not thatinterested in winning the–
(01:10:07):
acceptance and affection ofpeople who are like deeply
classes and can appreciate how,you know, mental health and
trauma could affect somebody in,you know, in the way their life
plays out like that.
(01:10:27):
It doesn't seem like you'reinterested in meeting somebody
who doesn't, they don't have tounderstand it, but you're not so
interested in meeting someonewho doesn't have the capacity to
appreciate that.
So that eliminates a lot ofthose nonsense guys out there.
Yeah.
Terrence, what has yourexperience been like doing this
(01:10:49):
thought record?
What are you taking away fromit?
How does it feel in your body?
I think when I started, when westarted, when we got to the
point of evidence that does notsupport thought as well as an
alternative thought you know itreally flipped on its head how
(01:11:14):
how I've maybe thought of myselfhow I've been maybe a bit
unreasonable and to be a lotkinder to myself and acknowledge
the fact I have made it througha lot And I've had a few hurdles
(01:11:37):
in my life, and I currentlystill do.
And I don't have to dictate onthe hurdles, but the hurdles are
there.
They are there, and I can't belike they aren't there.
And to also look at the supportthat I have and to, yeah, the
(01:12:00):
support in Paris and the worldthat we live in and realize that
the support And love that I haveis definitely a privilege
without a doubt.
And I should definitely embracethat and love that to help guide
me and find answers.
And I guess I don't have to haveall the answers now.
(01:12:21):
And it's okay to haveuncertainty.
It's going to be like thisforever.
Forever.
Right.
Yeah.
If I can quote Beyonce, it won'tbreak my soul.
(01:12:46):
Like you're not going to let itbreak your soul, right?
I think you're activelyresisting grind culture and how
the world makes you feel bad andyou just can't let it break your
soul.
UNKNOWN (01:13:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13:00):
release I'm releasing it all oh the release
part yes Terrence that's the endof our episode I'm sorry No, go
ahead.
What were you going to say?
I was going to add, it's sofunny that, so before I logged
on, I came from the gym and theshower, but on my way to the gym
(01:13:24):
because we're going to release.
And of course it's going to beon repeat.
And I remember listening to iton the way and just really
listen to the lyrics and reallyjust, it's such an affirming
song and just such a wonderfulreminder of, to myself whilst
I'm in this low space, just notlet it break my soul.
(01:13:46):
So it's really been a beautifulexperience listening to that
song.
And thank you so much for thisexperience.
And I appreciate it so much.
Really, truly.
You're very welcome, Terrence.
Thank you to you and thank youto our listeners.
This has been an episode of TheCBT Dive.
(01:14:08):
See you next time.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14:09):
Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to our YouTube channelat thecbtdive.ca.
You can also listen on the gowherever you get your podcasts.
To follow Rahim on social media,check out ladyativan.com.
See you soon.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Raheem Thawar, is asocial worker and
(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todiminish Welcome to another
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
episode of the CBT Dive.
Today we have Terence.
Terence Terrence is a specialguest.
I met him on my travels in SouthAfrica.
He is 29 years old, born andraised in Cape Town, identifies
as pansexual.
Some interesting things aboutTerrence are that he is an
(01:12):
overall creative.
He's a published playwright, ascreenwriter, and a drama
teacher.
He has had three significantrelationships in his life.
And the last time I talked tohim, he described them as having
failed and I hope we're going toreframe those today as having
merely ended or served theirpurpose.
(01:34):
Terrence is a person who is inrecovery.
He attends weekly AA meetingsand he shares this information
with us because he's open abouthis recovery journey and he's
felt like the AA meetings are asafe space for where people can
share their experiences withoutreceiving unsolicited advice.
(01:55):
So those have been extremelytherapeutic experiences for him.
Welcome, Terrence.
How are you today?
Hey, good afternoon and first ofall, thank you so much for
having me.
I am stunning.
It's a beautiful sunny day.
When the sun's out, I am alwayshappy, especially in the middle
of winter.
(02:16):
Me too.
Me too.
I am...
Like, if this could be CapeTown's winter every day, I would
be so happy.
I would be so happy.
Yeah.
Well, cherish it because this isan all winter.
Hashtag global warming.
So appreciate it because usuallyCape Town is quite cold in
(02:41):
winter.
Not that you would have beenbothered by it because you are
from a place far colder.
So...
Yeah, you would have probablybeen walking around in it while
we all walk around in trenchcoats.
Listen, I did bring a trenchcoat from back home and I
planned to, I've already worn ittwice.
So, you know, it's notoutrageous.
(03:02):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, look, I just want tofit in, you know.
Terrence, a quick question foryou.
Outside of the AA therapeuticspace, have you accessed other
kinds of therapy before?
I had a counselor that I sawshortly after I became sober,
(03:26):
and she was quite helpful.
I only saw her for a shortperiod of time, and then I felt
like I was in a good enoughspace I didn't need anymore.
So I saw her for about threemonths, and then I felt fine.
And yeah, that's all.
(03:48):
Before I got sober, I had made apractitioner, a TRE
practitioner, trauma releaseexercise is what I think it's
called.
Oh, amazing.
I've done some of that forsobriety also, just checking off
a lot of the bad jujus.
(04:09):
And I found that to be helpfulat the time.
Okay, amazing.
You are steeped in the processof reflection, insight, behavior
change.
So I don't need to tell youthis, but, you know, doing one
(04:30):
thought record is, you know,it's probably not going to be
life changing, but it's one ofthose things that you add to
your toolbox of insight and Andthat would be the goal for us
today, is to gain a little bitmore insight, areas where you
experience a certain intensityof negative or difficult
(04:52):
emotion, we can maybe contain ita bit or reduce its intensity.
Does that sound like areasonable goal for today?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
All right.
I am going to go ahead and sharemy screen.
And...
What you're going to see iscalled a CBT thought record.
(05:15):
Now this thought record is alinear tool.
It's one of the most populartools in cognitive behavioral
therapy, and it allows us towork through a situation, a very
specific situation.
So in our initial call, wetalked about situations that
might bring up difficultfeelings for you.
(05:37):
And we identified that onechallenging situation is when
you're swiping on Tinder.
So you're on this dating app andyou start to become acutely
aware of people's professionsand especially that of younger
guys.
Before we go and analyze thissituation and examine the
(05:57):
feelings and the subsequentthoughts, is there any more
context you want to give us orany more you want to tell us
about relationships, yourintention with dating, Anything
else we need to know about thesetting?
Well, I'm at the point where Iam, and I put it on my profile
(06:21):
also, I'm not necessarilylooking for a relationship.
Rather just, I guess, socialconnections, meeting up for a
drink and going with the flowand just, you know, becoming
maybe just friends or whatever.
Yes.
But definitely not in a space ofwanting relationships.
(06:43):
Okay.
All right.
So your objective for dating is,at the moment, it's about
meeting people.
Is that right?
Yes, yes.
I've found myself, I've foundthat my circle has shrunk.
(07:06):
My circle of friends and I'vemoved in by myself.
So I've put a lot of changes inthat regard.
Yeah, I feel like I need to put,not need to, but want to put
myself out there and make a fewmore queer friends, essentially.
Absolutely.
(07:26):
I can appreciate that.
So let's dive right in.
When you think about thissituation or you recall this
situation, because it's areoccurring one, right?
It's not one difficult momentyou had.
It's a recurring thing.
Tell me about some of thefeelings that come up when
you're aware of people'sprofessions.
SPEAKER_02 (07:52):
So I'd say, yeah, first off,
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
investment.
There's embarrassment.
There's resentment.
Yeah, resentment.
There's frustration.
(08:16):
And there's anger.
And yeah, that's necessarily howI feel towards, you know, the
strangers.
who I don't know, but a lot ofit's internal towards myself.
(08:37):
Of course, yeah.
Look, this is a good list offeelings that have come up, and
it wasn't too hard for you toidentify them, which is good.
So we've got embarrassed,resentful, frustration, or
frustrated and angry.
I'm going to ask...
(08:58):
about a couple more feelings,because sometimes it's nice to
thicken it up a little bit, orto fill the bucket, as it were.
So let me know if any of thesefeelings resonate with you.
Sadness?
(09:19):
Yeah, there's a degree ofsadness, basically.
Curiosity?
No.
No?
Is there any?
This feels like I'm going on thepositive side, but I am curious
if there's any excitement oroptimism?
(09:44):
No.
You're like, no.
How dare you?
Okay, okay.
What about the other end of thatspectrum?
Cynicism or skepticism?
It's nihilism.
I'll put that down.
(10:05):
I mean, that is, I don't know ifnihilism is a feeling, but I
guess, you know, we'll go withit.
How about ashamed or inadequate?
Inadequate.
Inadequate is a nice one.
I think ashamed goes withembarrassment.
(10:28):
Definitely there is inadequacy.
Okay.
Is there any worry or fear oranxiety?
There is anxiety.
There is definitely anxiety.
Okay.
(10:49):
There is fear as well, yes.
There's fear.
Okay.
Anything else?
No, I can't think of it anymore.
(11:13):
I'm just thinking, I'm trying toimagine, like, I know this
feeling to some degree, like theone where we are swiping.
And if it all felt bad, I feellike we wouldn't necessarily do
it.
But sometimes hidden in there isa kind of longing that comes
with, like if we're seeking orlooking for something, you know,
(11:36):
we're not necessarily doingresearch, but we're longing for
connection.
Yeah, there's a degree.
I think you had mentionedearlier, there is a degree of
excitement when one swipesbecause it's, You know, there's
that hope.
There's hope.
There's excitement and there'shope.
(11:57):
Hoping that you, you know, youfind a match.
And there's an excitement of,ooh, this profile will be like
me.
So, yeah.
It's not all.
Yes, look, even if theexcitement is the smallest slice
of The pie chart, when it comesto your feelings and the
situation, it's still worthputting down.
(12:19):
So I've added excitement andhope.
All right, I'm going to readthrough the feelings one more
time.
So you're swiping on Tinder,feeling acutely aware of
people's professions, especiallyyounger guys.
Your feeling list, embarrassed,resentful, frustrated, angry,
sad, nihilistic or nihilism,inadequate, anxiety or anxious,
(12:39):
fear, excitement, hope.
Does that cover the gamut offeelings?
I think that covers it ratheraccurately.
We couldn't do any more feelingsif we tried.
Our next task is to rate each ofthese emotions on a scale of 1
(13:01):
to 10.
And you're rating them forintensity.
So 10 is the most intense thatyou feel it in this particular
situation, and one would be notintense at all.
But, you know, they're in avery, very small quantity.
So how would you rateembarrassment?
(13:24):
I'd say a seven.
Okay.
And resentful?
An eight.
Frustration or frustrated?
Also an eight.
Angry.
Seven.
Sadness.
(13:47):
I'd say a three.
A three, did you say?
Yes.
Okay.
Nihilism.
Currently a seven.
Wow.
Okay.
Inadequate or inadequacy.
(14:09):
Anxiety.
Six.
Fear.
Five.
Excitement.
Five.
I thought you were going to dofour, three, two.
(14:32):
Okay.
And hope.
Hope.
Okay.
So you've done a great job sofar.
You've expanded your corefeelings to include some other
(14:53):
ones.
That doesn't mean those otherones are like positive.
It's not like you left out abunch of positive ones, but I
think we're getting a bettersense of the depth of this
experience.
So when you're swiping and youfeel this range of things, What
do you tend to do?
We're in the next column herethat says behavior.
Do you keep swiping?
(15:14):
Do you stop?
Do you go for a jog?
Do you have a snack?
Do you send angry messages topeople?
What do you do?
It ranges.
So there are times when thoughtsare fleeting.
(15:35):
These are essentially...
intrusive thought so and I'mable to recognize that so I try
to not ponder too much butobviously there are days where
they affect me more than othersso yeah on those days actually
I'm currently I don't have theapp I deleted it so I go through
(15:57):
these phases where I'll deleteit entirely so I don't just log
out I will delete it other timesI just close it I try to put it
as far away from my home screenas possible so that it's a
mission to kind of get therebecause I also find when I
procrastinate, then I want to goon there.
And usually I'm procrastinatingbecause I'm supposed to be doing
(16:18):
work.
So when I, and then when Iprocrastinate, I'm aware of the
fact that I'm procrastinating.
So I feel frustrated withmyself.
Then I go through thisexperience and I feel even more
negative.
So it's just the cycle.
So, um, I, uh, Yeah, on the dayswhen it really affects me badly,
(16:38):
I try to, I really do like aconcerted effort in trying to
get back to work because, youknow, it's never like, okay, I'm
going to sit and I'm going toTinder.
You know, I don't think Tinderpeople ever sit down and say
like, this is now my like Tinderhour.
I think it usually happens inthose moments when you're bored,
you're procrastinating, you'rewaiting for your bus or
(17:01):
whatever.
So in those moments, I try toget my mind kind of going
towards something that I shouldbe doing instead to kind of just
channel some positive thoughtsinstead.
All right.
But there are those days whenit's harder, where I get wrapped
(17:23):
up in these thoughts.
And that's something that's beenhappening a lot lately and what
I've been struggling with themost.
So I'm just going to read outthe behavior.
So our listeners, especiallyfolks who are just doing the
audio, can get a sense of allthe things you've mentioned
here.
Because it's a good range ofstrategies.
So you recognize that you'reprocrastinating work tasks.
(17:48):
That's part of why you're onTinder.
So you want to contain theprocrastination of work by
switching back to some prioritytasks.
Then you...
Employ this strategy where youclose the app and put it far
away from your home screen.
There's other times that youdelete the app entirely.
Overall, you're also thinkingabout ways to manage intrusive
(18:12):
thoughts that you'reexperiencing.
So tell me about the intrusivethoughts.
Now we're moving to the nextcolumn, which is called
automatic thoughts.
These are things that, you know,you don't have to work real hard
to come up with.
They pop into your mind.
What are those thoughts in thissituation?
Well, I mean, yeah, first ofall, it's the feelings.
(18:36):
It's a lot of the, if I canrelate them to the feelings
list, you know, it's thoughts ofinadequacy, feeling like I'm not
good enough, feeling like I am afailure.
Yeah, it's a negative voice thatsays, yeah, you're not good
(18:58):
enough.
your failure, feelings ofhopelessness.
Hopelessness around?
Relationships or careers?
Career, yeah.
So this is more careers asopposed to relationships.
Okay.
And so you're thinking...
(19:20):
So...
Help us understand here.
So I hear these thoughts thatI'm not good enough and I'm a
failure.
When you're comparing yourself,help me understand a bit more
about what is being compared.
Because when I read out yourbio, you sound...
(19:43):
like you're kicking ass.
You're, you know, you're apublished playwright.
You're a drama teacher.
You're a writer.
I know, I happen to know, youknow, from our conversations
that you do these cool, like,voiceover things for lots of
shows and films.
So, you know, as somebody who'sjust meeting you, your work life
(20:04):
sounds kind of cool.
So tell me where you don't feellike it's so good or what
doesn't feel so good.
Okay, yeah.
So on paper, I can fullyunderstand that.
So I will also just need toclarify, I'm not an active drama
teacher at the moment.
I used to be a drama teacher.
(20:24):
So where it comes in is at 29, Istill don't have full financial
independence.
I still...
received some financialassistance from my guardians for
my semi-adopted parents and soit's a pride it's an ego thing
(20:49):
you know society has and it's sosilly because I know it's it's
society's standards and I don'tneed to follow those standards
in a privileged position that Iam able to still receive help
while I try and figure out andnavigate.
But yeah, society has kind of, Iguess, led a lot of us to
believe that, you know, by theage of 30, you should have
(21:11):
accomplished X, Y, Z and youshould have this and this
savings and you need...
So because that is the standardthat I've identified and
recognized and I don't feel likeI'm there.
So these feelings...
of inadequacy creep when I seeother people that are there,
even though I don't knowanything about them.
I know it's really silly, butyeah, I don't know anything
(21:33):
about their life.
I don't know anything abouttheir struggles, but I see this
profession and they've done thisand they're doing this and
working for this company andimmediately I'm just like, well,
so it also brings me back to whyit is.
So I have a job, but it's not avery stimulating job.
So I work as a translator.
(21:55):
at a dubbing studio where wetranslate Turkish shows into
Afrikaans, which is one of thelanguages here in South Africa.
So I don't speak Turkish.
So the company gets that havebeen translated from Turkish to
English.
I just translate the Englishscripts to Afrikaans.
(22:15):
So it's a simple job.
It's not difficult.
And it includes a form ofwriting, but it's not so much.
I don't really get anopportunity to be creative.
It's more technical.
Yeah, it's not very creative.
It's more technical because it'smore about trying to...
Turkish is a very dynamiclanguage.
(22:37):
Afrikaans is the opposite.
So what people...
A three-syllable sentence inTurkish would require seven
syllables in Afrikaans.
And I was trying to find thesetranslations and trying to find
ways to make it all work and fitin and keep the meaning of the
story.
So there's a technical elementto it.
(23:00):
So it's a job that becomes quitetedious sometimes.
And when I started, it was nice,it was fine, but I'm just
finding myself at a place whereI'm not very stimulated at the
moment.
And I'm doing this while I'm sobusy with a few creative things.
I'm busy writing a feature film,busy writing a short film, and
(23:21):
busy working on a theatre play.
So I am doing these creativethings, but I do find that I'm
not as passionate as I used tobe, so I'm feeling a And so all
those things kind of like muddleinto one that adds to this whole
sense of existentialism.
(23:42):
Okay.
I'm going to pause you there fora second.
You, you've said a lot of reallyhelpful things in terms of like
helping me understand whereyou're coming from.
Okay.
So the creative parts of yourlife, So not the translation
job.
I guess that sounded cool to me,but you're saying it's not
stimulating, it's tedious.
(24:02):
So I hear you.
The other creative things.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
The creative things aren't whatis tedious.
It's the translating job.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
I get that.
The creative jobs aren't givingme money at the moment.
So I think that's the crux of itall.
(24:23):
That's okay.
So I just wanted to, that'sexactly what I wanted to get to.
So are you finding enough timefor the creative work or is the
paid work getting in the way ofthe creative work?
The paid work is getting in theway of the creative work.
Okay.
So I'm going to, I'm just goingto write this out here.
(24:45):
My paid work gets paid.
in the way of my creative workand your creative work is the
thing you love.
And if you're, if you, let's saymagically you didn't have to do
the paid work and you couldfocus a lot on the creative
(25:07):
work, which from what Iunderstand would pay off in
monies later on, potentially ifyou did it.
Yeah.
And if you didn't, if you, ifyou could devote more time to
it, would you feel better aboutbeing on Tinder or Grindr or
whatever it is?
Like, would you feel moreaccomplished?
(25:29):
Would you feel like you'recomparing yourself less
negatively to others?
Well, and I don't know if I'mjumping ahead here.
I'm currently, it's a questionthat I've asked myself.
I was unhappy with this job.
You should leave it.
And I asked myself, well, whatis it that you want to do?
So, Devoting all my time to mycraft and my writing and
(25:53):
creating didn't necessarilyresult in financial stability in
the short term.
It could open doors and createopportunities later down the
road, but in the short term, notso much.
And so I asked myself, This iswhat you want to do.
And I'm kind of finding myselfin a space where I actually
(26:14):
can't answer that, where I feellike I've kind of lost my
passion and my drive a bit.
And I think that also results ina feeling of loss career-wise
because this thing that I alwaysthought I wanted, I'm not so
sure I want anymore.
But then I don't actually knowwhat it is in that I want.
So there's a lot of confusionthere.
(26:36):
as well on top of everything sowhen i talk about comparing
myself on tinder it's not it umyeah i don't get i don't want to
say i get intimidated by this bythis by this profile that is in
angie's job it's not so muchit's actually not so much about
this other person's much moreabout me and my own feelings
when i see this um yeah when isee when i see that because i
(26:59):
want to be successful in what Iwant to feel good about what it
is that I'm doing, and I don'tat the moment, and I don't know
what it is that I need to do tomake me feel good, if that makes
sense.
So, okay.
I'm a bit lost career-wise, andI don't feel good about what I'm
(27:22):
doing at the moment.
Now, you did say that...
On the one hand, there is acomparative element.
You compare yourself to theseother people, but it's not like
you're saying, I want what theyhave.
(27:42):
You're more saying, no, you'remore like, I want to have, I
assume they've got some kind ofhappiness and I want to have
that too.
Yes, that is kind of it.
So I think other guys havesuccess and happiness, and I
(28:05):
want that too.
All right, let's go back to thefirst couple things you had
said, which was I am not goodenough and I am a failure.
Those are bold things to say,and they were the first things
that came out of your mouth.
So when you say I'm not goodenough, is that– Is that in
(28:30):
terms of the money in your bankaccount?
Is that in terms of yourcapacity for dating?
What is that about?
Tell me more.
In what way are you not goodenough?
And in whose eyes?
Whew.
(28:51):
This is actually the first timeI've had to confront this
thought, to be very frank.
When it's in your head, it'sdifferent when someone else asks
you this question.
And I realize it's quite ahectic thing, it's an intense
thing to think about myself.
And I'm now sitting here and I'mlike, shit.
UNKNOWN (29:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
I feel like
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
I've accomplished a lot of things.
I definitely have.
I acknowledge that I've wonawards.
I have been nominated forthings.
I've been finalist in things.
I've published plays.
The work is respected.
(29:41):
I have a very high standard formyself in the sense that I know
what I'm capable of And I'venever reached that standard
because I've always gotten alongwith doing the bare minimum.
I feel like I've managed tobamboozle people.
I mean, I shouldn't be sayingthis aloud, but I'm going to.
(30:05):
The draft of my play, that'sonly the second draft.
I spent almost no time trying towork on it.
I mean, the story was goodenough.
And that's what I've kind of,kind of always I'm one of those
people that leave things to thelast minute so when I deadline I
would leave it to the lastminute and that's where I thrive
(30:29):
but you know that's not how Iwant to as an artist I want to
do things differently but I'vejust always struggled with time
management and with executivefunctioning generally speaking
time management task managementprioritizing etc so
procrastinating I have ADHD.
So, yeah, I'm on stimulantmedication now, but I haven't
(30:52):
always been, and that's been areal struggle.
So when I say I'm not goodenough, it's good enough in my
own eyes because I know theability I have, and I've kind of
been relying on just naturaltalent.
And I am talented, without adoubt, that much I know, but I'm
not a hard worker, and I want tobe one.
And so I...
(31:18):
And being a failure is a failurein the sense that, yeah, and I
hate to say this stupidcapitalistic society that we
live in, but yes, it is afinancial where I hate the fact
that I sleep financialassistance, but that also is not
entirely my fault.
It's also just the arts in thiscountry is not respected.
(31:41):
Opportunities are, there are fewopportunities, but I also know
that I, I should be workingharder.
I should be trying to findthings and putting work and
effort into my life.
And I would, but now the trickypart comes in that I'm currently
in the same existential crisiswhere I don't know what it is
(32:03):
that I want to do.
So I feel like I've got thispotential to put in all this
effort and work.
And I feel like I just needsomebody with the answers to
just be like, hey, why don't youwant to do that?
Because I honestly do not know.
Okay.
I'm just rearranging some ofyour thoughts here because
(32:23):
there's a lot of them andthey're all poignant, right?
They're all so relevant andthey're really getting me to
think as well about the systemwe live in.
So you say, I struggle withexecutive function and task
management.
So that is a barrier youexperience.
(32:44):
But then you say, I'm not a hardworker.
And that's where we get, I'm notgood enough, I'm a failure, I
should be working harder.
So when you say you're not ahard worker, is that because
you've gotten by at some pointdoing the bare minimum or
because you did something lastminute as opposed to giving it
(33:07):
your full effort?
Is that why you say that?
The prior case, I feel like I'vegotten by with, yeah, I've
gotten by with with last minutethings and doing the bare
minimum.
And it's tricky because, like Isaid, it's like there's this
(33:28):
part of me that wants to workand wants to put in the effort,
but I get this block.
It's this wall.
I can't describe it.
It's a wall where everyintention of wanting to, but I
can't.
I just, you know, and that's afrustration that I struggle
with.
is that I know the potentialthat I have, but this wall is
(33:53):
there, and I struggle to breakthrough it.
Okay.
So if you have a block that youcan't push through, what do you
think that says about you?
Or what do you think that thatsays about your future?
(34:13):
Because I think there's a deeperfear or anxiety there.
Yeah, well, I mean, yes, that'swhere the anxiety comes in
because I have this fear that,you know, I'm heading into a
point in my life where I findkind of like I need to sort of
think stability and I just feellike it's never going to come.
(34:36):
And I have a fear that this warwill always be an issue and that
this is kind of where thenihilism comes in because I'm
like, well, what is the point?
if no matter how hard I try, I'mjust always going to run into
this wall.
And that maybe even if I changeindustries, if I change jobs, if
(35:00):
I change, you know, that I'llkeep running into the wall.
Okay.
I'm just writing some of thatout.
So I've gotten by with doing thebare minimum, but I want to
(35:20):
work.
but have a block, right?
And we're describing the blockas this wall.
And the consequence of that oryour fear is that I'll never
have stability or the wall willalways be an issue.
Or I don't know what the pointof trying is if I keep coming up
against the wall.
(35:41):
When you say you've gotten bywith doing the bare minimum, Is
there some meaning you draw fromthat?
Is that where you say you're nota hard worker because you've
gotten by doing the bareminimum?
Yes.
Ah, okay.
(36:01):
I'm going to move over to someof the other things you had
mentioned.
When you talk about your...
you not necessarily beingcompletely financially
independent, if people you werelooking to go on dates with, if
(36:23):
they found out about that or ifyou shared that with them, what
do you think they would thinkabout you?
I think most people wouldn'tcare.
I honestly think most otherpeople wouldn't care.
(36:43):
What do you think about that?
What does it say about you?
To me, that makes me feel...
Well, that's where my feelingsof feeling like a failure stem
(37:04):
from, is from that and...
Yeah, it's my pride,essentially, that makes me feel
then less than and inadequate.
(37:29):
That's how I feel about it.
Yeah.
But I don't think most peoplewould care.
When you talk about pride andyou also talk about these
specific milestones, age 29, I'mon my way to 30, this is what
should be the case.
(37:51):
If it's not the case, does itmean that I'm not properly an
adult?
Is that the thought or thebelief?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm going to write that down.
I'm not properly an adult.
And if you're not properly anadult, what does that mean in
(38:13):
terms of your capacity formaking decisions, employment,
and being in relationships?
Is there an impact?
Well, definitely.
That's one of the reasons why I,at this point in time, don't
want a relationship anymore.
(38:35):
I feel like there's a lot ofinternal work that I need to do
and I need to figure out.
And, and I'm, I'm aware of allof these thoughts and I don't
want to go with all of thisuncertainty into a relationship
and take all that baggage with.
So, yeah, let's go slow here fora minute.
So you're no, because I knowyou're aware of, I know you're
(38:55):
very aware of all the thingsthat are going on, but yeah, I
think we're getting to somethingthat maybe we haven't yet
articulated.
So I'm not properly an adult andtherefore I'm not ready for a
relationship.
Or if I bring this into arelationship, what will happen?
Help me connect that.
(39:19):
So it's not necessarily justthese things.
I feel like I have a lot ofbaggage.
also related to past traumas.
And so I feel like I need todeal with the traumas first
(39:47):
before I can fully, I feel like,embrace another person.
On the surface level, I lovemyself.
I respect myself.
But I feel like I feel likesubconsciously my inner child is
still dealing with a lot of shitfrom my childhood, like being
(40:08):
abandoned, losing my parents ata young age.
And so there's a lot of thosethings that still need to be
resolved.
And I've kind of made thedecision that I've come to the
realization that I need to dealwith those things first before I
can get into a relationship.
(40:30):
because I feel like it would beunfair to cut all this baggage.
And my past relationships andwhat I call them fail is because
I feel like it started offgreat.
There's the honeymoon phase andthen, yeah, and then things just
fall apart and they're mostly myfault.
(40:53):
Okay.
In all three relationships, ifyou feel like the ending was
predominantly or primarily yourfault, what was it that you
weren't able to do or that youdid do or that you did say that
(41:17):
contributed to the end or to thefailure?
So there's a person where At thebeginning of the relationship, I
was one to ask each three ofthese people out.
So I recognized there was aconnection.
I was like, ooh, we should date.
(41:39):
And then there was thisintensity for the beginning
phase.
And then comes an uncertainty.
where I'm like, oh, should Ihave made the right decision?
Should I have been in arelationship with this person?
I don't know if I really do likethis person.
And with two of them, you know,I got to the point where we said
we love one another.
And then I get to the pointwhere I then demonize them and I
(42:06):
then start treating them.
And this is unconscious.
This is just me.
This is in reflection.
And that's why I call them fell.
In reflection, I realized Istarted...
find fault in them and sort ofhave to be worse than they are.
I almost had a reason to leavethem or a reason to
(42:26):
self-destruct in a sense.
Okay, okay.
So if I were to give thatpattern a word, it might be...
It might be about...
sabotaging the relationship orfear of being trapped or
(42:50):
something like that.
That's what I'm getting fromthat pattern.
Do either of those fit?
Would you say that you werefeeling trapped or that you were
sabotaging it?
Yeah, I got to a point where Ifelt trapped, where I felt
suffocated and I felt...
(43:12):
Yeah, I felt like I didn't wantto be with this person anymore.
And then there was a lot ofguilt around it because I felt
like I was the one who initiatedthings.
Okay.
So there's a new thoughtemerging here.
And it's a thought that has todo with the story you're telling
(43:33):
me, which is, of course, adifferent situation than...
swiping through Tinder, but I'llwrite it out and you let me know
if it fits.
So I'm thinking one of your moresubconscious thoughts includes
or is I'm not relationshipready.
(44:02):
I'll feel And then I'll sabotageit.
This is because...
Oh, wait.
(44:25):
And I'm going to copy this parthere.
Okay.
These seem to be two, I mean,these are more than just one
thought, right?
But I'm not relationship ready.
I'll feel trapped and then I'llsabotage it.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially more stable first.
It sounds to me like these arethe different pieces that are
(44:47):
going on in your mind.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So there's a lot here.
Okay.
Terrence, I'm going to read outsome of your automatic thoughts,
(45:12):
including the ones that I'veadded in or I've organized as
you've talked.
And what I want you to do is Iwant you to think about this
particular experience on Tinder.
So you've told me we've gone intwo directions.
We've gone in the direction ofyour past relationships and And
(45:33):
we've gone in the direction ofhow you feel about your career.
Tinder is a place where thesethings come together.
So let's find one automaticthought or one statement here
that you feel is most prominentand it's driving a lot of the
(45:57):
difficult feelings.
Does that make sense?
So we're going to pick one thatyou think is like the main one.
So I struggle with executivefunction and task management.
I'm not a hard worker.
I'm not good enough.
I'm a failure.
I should be working harder.
I've gotten by with doing thebare minimum, but I want to
(46:18):
work, but I have a block.
I'll never have stability.
The wall will always be anissue.
I don't know what the point oftrying is if I keep coming up
against the wall.
I'm still struggling withfinancial independence at age
29.
I'm not properly an adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
(46:40):
I need to do trauma work and bemore financially stable first.
I'm not relationship ready.
I'll feel trapped and then I'llsabotage it.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially more stable first.
Of these, what stands out to youas really capturing the
difficult feelings you have?
SPEAKER_02 (47:01):
I'd
SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
say that I'm struggling with financial
independence at age 29.
I'm not probably an adult.
And I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially more stable first.
I'd say that whole section.
That whole section.
Okay.
So what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to highlight these parts.
Let's say I'm not properly anadult.
(47:41):
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially stable first.
Okay.
So now I'll tell you now.
That is a very loaded thought,and it's more than one thought.
But because we're only doing onesession, we only have one kick
(48:03):
at the can, so to speak.
So in a more typical cognitivebehavioral therapy treatment or
setting, we would break this inand do multiple thought records.
But here we're going to takethis whole thought, this whole
big thought, and we're going towork with it.
(48:25):
I'm not properly an adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially stable first.
Those are three major thoughts.
Now, can you give me someevidence that supports that
thought?
We're going to call it the hotthought.
It's the one that's mostsalient.
So you could even give meevidence that supports each
(48:45):
piece of it.
So evidence that supports you'renot properly an adult.
You've told me that, right?
Not financially independent.
Yeah.
What's evidence that you're notfit to be in a relationship?
(49:07):
My history of sabotagingrelationships.
Okay, so my history ofsabotaging relationships.
Yeah.
All right.
(49:27):
Just working on my spellinghere.
And so you have done some traumawork.
And has it made you better insome of your relationships,
whether they're romantic, casualdating or friendships?
UNKNOWN (49:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:53):
I wouldn't...
I mean, it's been...
I haven't really done traumawork, first of all.
A lot of it has beenself-reflection.
That's okay.
Self-realization.
So I've definitely gained a lotof clarity and I've had a few
(50:16):
realizations and epiphanies.
But I wouldn't say...
that actively and it's been toosoon for me to see a difference
in my relationship but I am veryself-aware a lot of the time you
are and so in being self-awareand doing therapeutic
(50:40):
self-reflection and even Youknow, being in recovery, like
you're not drinking anymore,right?
Has that shifted the way you'reable to be in connection with
people?
Well, yes.
My sobriety has become worth asense of awareness of myself.
(51:01):
I mean, one really positive partof it is that I feel like I know
who I am.
Um, I have a betterunderstanding of, of, of myself
and I continuously, um, I'mlearning new things about
myself.
Um, this is, and yeah, itdefinitely shaped, I guess, the
way I perceive relationshipsand, and, um, yeah, I think if I
(51:26):
wasn't sober, I'd probably stilljust be calling for the, you
know, someone off the first dateand, and telling them I love
them after a month.
or whatever, not being sure whatthat word means.
I think also something that hashappened is I've re-evaluated
(51:47):
what it means and realized thatI've used it quite frivolously
and I had a misunderstanding ofit that at the time I was
certain that's what it was, butre-evaluating it with a more
clear mind, I've I've come to anunderstanding of what that word
truly means.
(52:08):
So, yeah, my newfound clarityhas definitely helped.
Okay.
So here's evidence that supportsyour hot thought.
One, I'm not financiallyindependent, right?
And like it or not, that's howyou've constructed in your mind
what adulthood is.
So you say, I'm not properly anadult.
I say, why?
You say, I'm not financiallyindependent.
(52:29):
I won't argue with it.
That becomes a kind of evidencethat supports that thought.
The other big thought here isI'm not fit to be in a
relationship.
What's the evidence?
Well, my history of sabotagingrelationships.
If somebody said, hey, Terrence,do you think you need to sort
out your trauma while you're ina relationship?
Or is it a prerequisite?
(52:50):
You might say, okay, well, myevidence here is that my
therapeutic self-reflection andmy sobriety has helped me with
understanding myself, which ofcourse would be better for a
future relationship.
And also, If I wasn't sober, andthe way you do seek current
therapy is, you know, you go toyour AA meetings.
(53:10):
So if you weren't in that space,you'd be in unhealthy
relationship patterns.
So all of this evidence supportsthe way you've been thinking,
right?
Now, I want you to come up withsome evidence that does not
support these ideas.
(53:31):
So give me some evidence thatyou are properly an adult um so
i'm an adult when i do whatwe're an adult when i pay my
balls um uh i'm an adult when ium when i'm I'm looking for
(54:02):
work.
I'm looking for jobs.
That's where I currently
SPEAKER_02 (54:07):
am.
Picking up.
Picking employment.
SPEAKER_01 (54:18):
Taking the time to self-reflect and to grow.
I think that internally, yeah.
Okay, so I'm an adult when I paymy bills, seek employment,
invest in personal development.
And if I may add, when you stickwith the job that feels tedious
(54:38):
because it pays your bills.
Yeah.
That doesn't bring you joy, butthat's adulting, isn't it?
Yeah, that is adulting 101.
Okay.
So...
When you say you're not fit tobe in a relationship, give me
(55:02):
some evidence that suggests youare fit to be in a relationship.
A strong sense ofself-awareness.
SPEAKER_02 (55:18):
And
SPEAKER_01 (55:24):
how does that help in a relationship?
Well, I think when there isconflict, I think it's good that
you, yeah.
(55:46):
Yep.
And this idea that you need todo more trauma work or you need
to be more financially stable asprerequisites for a
(56:06):
relationship.
I want you to challenge thatjust a touch.
I'm not saying go on acompletely different path, but
is there some evidence in yourlife that relationships are
possible and other people willbe interested in you even when
you haven't done the trauma workor you're not super financially
stable?
(56:28):
Oh, definitely.
I mean, all my pastrelationships happened when
neither of those things, when Iwasn't financially stable, when
I hadn't worked in my pasttrauma.
So, yeah, I think someone wouldbe more open.
(56:52):
I don't think those are factorsthat would deter anyone.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm just going to write lotsof people were into me before,
right?
So lots, lots and lots.
All right.
So you've got this amalgamatedhot thought.
(57:15):
I'm not properly an adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
I need to do trauma work and befinancially stable before I'm in
a relationship, right?
And then you've got evidencethat supports that idea.
And then you've got evidencethat does not.
And the evidence that does notsays, well, I'm an adult
already.
When I pay my bills, seekemployment, invest in personal
(57:35):
development and stick with atedious job.
I have a strong sense ofself-awareness.
That's a relationship quality.
It helps me resolve conflict.
And I don't necessarily need todo a bunch of things before I'm
relationship ready.
Lots of people were into mebefore and I didn't have
financial stability then.
And I wasn't doing any traumawork then.
(57:58):
So look, What I'd like for youto do now is come up with an
alternative thought, somethingalternative while you're swiping
on Tinder specifically, andyou're looking at these guys'
professions, and you're thinkingto yourself, I'm not properly an
adult.
I'm not fit to be in arelationship.
(58:18):
What can you say to yourself inresponse to the hot thought?
Something that's a bit moreaffirming, but balanced.
I think the thing that I havealready tried or tried to remind
myself of is the fact that we'reall on an individual journey.
(58:45):
And what does that mean for thepeople you meet on Tinder?
Well, I mean, this is morerelated to the comparisons that
I'm making.
(59:06):
Yes.
And so if people are on anindividual journey, I just want
you to go a bit deeper.
So the people who've got thefancy jobs and presumably
cushioned bank accounts, whatdoes that mean?
Like, what is their journey iwant to say we all yeah what it
(59:30):
means is that i don't knownecessarily um the i'm seeing a
very i don't know necessarilywhat it is that they have had
maybe they had a privileged lifeand um i mean i have my own
privileges but i also struggledquite a lot I have mental health
(59:56):
issues.
I have my ADHD.
So for all I know, they've hadit quite easy.
And they've had it, yeah,they've just had a slightly
different life and they've madedifferent choices.
And that's impacted the lifethat they're living now.
(01:00:17):
Okay.
So we're all on an individualjourney.
People with nice job titles.
may have a different struggle.
Is that right?
Yes.
And how would they think aboutyou?
Would they understand you as anadult?
Do you think they would see youas being fit to be in a
(01:00:41):
relationship?
Yeah, I just think so.
What would they appreciate aboutyou?
Or how would they arrive at thisidea that, hey, Terrence maybe
doesn't earn the amount I do ordoesn't have the kind of job
title I have, but he's a goodbloke.
I'd date him.
What would get them there?
(01:01:02):
I mean, I think the thing I'mmost proud of is my sense of
self-awareness.
My sense of self-awareness, mypersonality.
I like to think that I am a kindperson, an understanding person,
(01:01:26):
empathetic person.
I feel a lot of good qualitiesthat make me a decent human
being.
Yeah.
So what I've written here isother guys will, and in
brackets, will have toappreciate my self-awareness and
personality and empathy, right?
UNKNOWN (01:01:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:49):
And do you think that you're worthy of a
relationship even if you haven'tdone the trauma work?
Or if your old pattern were toshow up while you attempted to
date somebody, do you have newtools that you might use to deal
with that or to interrupt thatcycle?
(01:02:09):
Yeah, well, I definitely thinkthat I'm worthy.
Without a doubt, it's just acase of maybe not being ready as
opposed to being worthy.
And yes, I do think I have somuch more self-awareness now
(01:02:33):
than I had before that I feellike I'd be able to identify
these patterns now and toapproach them in a different
manner.
Well, not approach them in adifferent manner, just approach
them as I haven't everapproached them before.
Whilst in a relationship.
(01:02:56):
Okay.
Give me one sec here.
Okay.
So I'm worthy of relationships,just perhaps not ready.
If I were in one now, I'dapproach things differently than
(01:03:16):
I have in the past.
Now, Terrence, if somebody says,or somebody is put off or not
that interested in you becauseon paper, you're not
accomplished in the ways thatthey are with this, you know,
the job titles, the profession,what do you tell yourself?
(01:03:39):
What can you say to help youcombat that or to put that into
perspective?
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:52):
I mean,
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:00):
I would think it's unreasonable for this person to
think that because that's justone part of me.
Well, saying that a lot makes merealize that I've been
unreasonable.
Yeah, it would be...
(01:04:21):
And then I think I'd go back to,to I guess the journey thing
about, you know, we are all onour own different journeys and
we all have had differentstruggles and all currently
maybe struggle from differentthings and different hurdles
that some have that othersdon't.
And if it's, if they're judgingyou unreasonably, are they a
(01:04:45):
good candidate to be in arelationship with you?
No.
Because then you're notrejecting...
They're not rejecting you.
You're rejecting them.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
(01:05:06):
So I've written here, if I'mjudged by others about my
career, that would beunreasonable.
I don't want to be with themthen.
Or I don't want to be with themanyway.
We've got four...
really strong alternativethoughts.
I'm going to read them out.
And as I do, I want you to thinkabout which one rings most true
(01:05:28):
to you, but also like not justmost true, but which one do you
believe in?
What do you find most helpful inyour body?
Okay.
So we're all on an individualjourney.
People with nice job titles mayhave a different struggle.
Other guys will have toappreciate my self-awareness,
personality, and empathy.
(01:05:50):
I'm worthy of relationships,just perhaps not ready.
If I were in one now, I'dapproach things differently than
I have in the past.
If I'm judged by others about mycareer, that would be
unreasonable.
I don't want to be with themanyway.
This will be the first one.
The first one.
(01:06:10):
All right.
So I'm going to put that inbold.
We're all on an individualjourney.
People with nice job titlesmight have a different struggle.
And then if they don't have adifferent struggle, if they've
had everything handed to them,then we revert back down to the
last one.
If you're being judged, thenthey're not for you.
(01:06:33):
So as you think about thesealternative thoughts, but
particularly the first one, Iwant you to just meditate on it
for a moment.
Think about yourself scrollingthrough Tinder or swiping on
Tinder.
And you really embrace this ideathat you're on individual
journeys.
How would you rate yourintensity of embarrassment?
(01:06:56):
Three, two, two.
Okay.
How about resentful?
One.
Okay.
What about frustrated?
One.
Angry?
(01:07:18):
one sad one okay nihilism oneinadequate
SPEAKER_02 (01:07:35):
one
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:38):
anxious
SPEAKER_02 (01:07:45):
one fear
SPEAKER_01 (01:07:51):
Excitement.
Hope.
Did you say eight?
Okay, cool.
(01:08:12):
So you completed the thoughtrecord.
Are there any new feelings thatcome up for you as you embrace
the alternative thought?
A sense of hope, to be frank.
Yeah.
In realizing that I think a lotof my thoughts have been
(01:08:36):
unreasonable.
And yeah, I'm being reminded ofthe fact that we're all on our
individual journeys, itdefinitely gives me more hope
(01:08:56):
and kind of flips the switch andmakes me look at it with a
completely different lens.
Yeah.
Look, I'm looking at yourthought record here and your
ratings are And so as a result,the intensity of a lot of these
feelings whittled down quite abit.
(01:09:18):
However, if you reflected onthis and you thought, well, my
sadness actually goes up alittle bit, that would also make
sense, you know, because whenyou think about comparing
yourself to others, you know,Yes, we're all on individual
journeys.
(01:09:39):
Yes, people with nice job titlesalso have other kinds of
struggles.
But do we live in a classist,elitist world?
Sure.
Are you going to meet jerks onthe internet?
Like 1,000%.
But your self-awareness seems tohave taken you to a place where
you're actually not thatinterested in winning the–
(01:10:07):
acceptance and affection ofpeople who are like deeply
classes and can appreciate how,you know, mental health and
trauma could affect somebody in,you know, in the way their life
plays out like that.
(01:10:27):
It doesn't seem like you'reinterested in meeting somebody
who doesn't, they don't have tounderstand it, but you're not so
interested in meeting someonewho doesn't have the capacity to
appreciate that.
So that eliminates a lot ofthose nonsense guys out there.
Yeah.
Terrence, what has yourexperience been like doing this
(01:10:49):
thought record?
What are you taking away fromit?
How does it feel in your body?
I think when I started, when westarted, when we got to the
point of evidence that does notsupport thought as well as an
alternative thought you know itreally flipped on its head how
(01:11:14):
how I've maybe thought of myselfhow I've been maybe a bit
unreasonable and to be a lotkinder to myself and acknowledge
the fact I have made it througha lot And I've had a few hurdles
(01:11:37):
in my life, and I currentlystill do.
And I don't have to dictate onthe hurdles, but the hurdles are
there.
They are there, and I can't belike they aren't there.
And to also look at the supportthat I have and to, yeah, the
(01:12:00):
support in Paris and the worldthat we live in and realize that
the support And love that I haveis definitely a privilege
without a doubt.
And I should definitely embracethat and love that to help guide
me and find answers.
And I guess I don't have to haveall the answers now.
(01:12:21):
And it's okay to haveuncertainty.
It's going to be like thisforever.
Forever.
Right.
Yeah.
If I can quote Beyonce, it won'tbreak my soul.
(01:12:46):
Like you're not going to let itbreak your soul, right?
I think you're activelyresisting grind culture and how
the world makes you feel bad andyou just can't let it break your
soul.
UNKNOWN (01:13:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13:00):
release I'm releasing it all oh the release
part yes Terrence that's the endof our episode I'm sorry No, go
ahead.
What were you going to say?
I was going to add, it's sofunny that, so before I logged
on, I came from the gym and theshower, but on my way to the gym
(01:13:24):
because we're going to release.
And of course it's going to beon repeat.
And I remember listening to iton the way and just really
listen to the lyrics and reallyjust, it's such an affirming
song and just such a wonderfulreminder of, to myself whilst
I'm in this low space, just notlet it break my soul.
(01:13:46):
So it's really been a beautifulexperience listening to that
song.
And thank you so much for thisexperience.
And I appreciate it so much.
Really, truly.
You're very welcome, Terrence.
Thank you to you and thank youto our listeners.
This has been an episode of TheCBT Dive.
(01:14:08):
See you next time.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14:09):
Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to our YouTube channelat thecbtdive.ca.
You can also listen on the gowherever you get your podcasts.
To follow Rahim on social media,check out ladyativan.com.
See you soon.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com