July 26, 2022 • 61 mins
You have a work assignment but you avoid getting started, worry about failure, catastrophize, and then negate positive feedback when it's been submitted and reviewed. Sound familiar? In this episode, we explore a common but frustrating pattern. We query the possibility of Adult ADHD and locate its roots in childhood family dynamics. Sebastien leaves the session more insightful about how he came to believe that self-criticism was a good motivator.
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Raheem Thawar, is asocial worker and
(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todiminish mystify what therapy
can look like, and shareintervention skills for
wellness.
We hope that each episode helpsyou along on your own journey
for insight and self-compassion.
SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Hi, Sebastian.
How are you?
I'm great.
Thank you very much.
How are you?
I'm good.
Sebastian, where are you zoomingin from today?
I am zooming in from sunnySingapore today.
Sunny Singapore.
And can you tell me about, likewe're operating in two different
(01:11):
parts of the world.
I'm curious to know if CBT andpsychotherapy is as popular in
Singapore as it's recentlybecome in North America.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
I'd like to think it is.
I'd like to think that amongSingaporeans, at least, there's
a bigger push or I'd say abigger awareness in terms of
therapy, in terms of CBT, interms of mental health,
especially with the past twoyears, one and a half, two
years, everyone's on lockdown,everyone's mental state is just
(01:46):
going whack.
SPEAKER_02 (01:49):
Okay, yeah.
I mean, I can relate to that.
Do you want to share...
just a little bit about whatmakes you interested in seeking
out mental health support oreven your interest in mental
health interventions?
I think I seek
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
it for more selfish reasons.
Especially due to the pandemicsituation, some of the
underlying mental issues I'vestruggled with has made a very
interesting appearance grandappearance you could say flared
up and many things have beentriggered and unearthed and i
think now would be a fantastictime to kind of have them
(02:29):
addressed okay
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
and
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
uh
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
For the listeners and viewers, what we know about
Sebastian so far is that he's 34years old, lives in Singapore,
is married, works in marketing,and some of the things he's
juggling with involve good oldfamily responsibilities and
transitioning between jobs orthrough different roles in the
(02:57):
same workplace.
Is that right?
Yes, that's correct.
Okay.
So here's what we're going todo.
I'm going to transition to ourthought record because Sebastian
and I, we have identified asituation that he feels would be
useful for him to process.
All right.
(03:21):
Sebastian, you can see thatokay?
Yes, I can.
All right, great.
So the situation we're lookingat today is we're You're in the
midst of a work task, right?
What I would say is like a fancymarketing job, which I imagine
you have mixed feelings about.
And you're in the midst of awork task and you have this
(03:44):
sense that you'reunderperforming.
So it's basically, there's afeeling you're having of...
Uncertainty or self-doubt,right?
And one of the examples of thetask would be something as
simple as reviewing a document.
Yeah.
How often do you have to reviewdocuments?
(04:04):
I'd say for my role on a dailybasis.
Okay.
So you have this experiencealmost every day?
Yes, that is correct.
Okay.
And does this...
In this situation, is it adocument that you're reviewing
that later has to be looked atby someone else?
(04:24):
It does normally.
Okay.
And has it been assigned to youby the same person who reviews
it?
Yes, correct.
Okay.
And is some of your uncertainty,unsettledness, self-doubt, is
that connected to the personthemselves, either their role or
their personality?
Yes.
(04:46):
That you're going to bereporting to?
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
I wish it was.
Unfortunately, it's not.
Okay, so you feel fairlycertain.
You're like, this has to do withme.
Yeah, so it feels a lot of ithas to do with me because this
is also something that occurs ondifferent tasks that is assigned
by different people to bereviewed by different parties.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Okay, perfect.
So we've got our situation.
During a work task...
And I have a sense that I'munderperforming.
So you're reviewing a document,right?
So let's just think about thesituation as reviewing a
document.
And let's come up with a list offeelings that describe all the
(05:29):
things you might be feeling,right?
So I said self-doubt already.
I imagine that's true.
What's another feeling thatcomes up for you?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
A feeling, would it be conflict?
A feeling of conflict counts asa feeling.
Yeah, it could.
Tell me more about the conflict.
It's self-conflict of whether amI doing it right?
Is there a better way to do it?
Am I putting enough effort intoit?
Am I not putting enough effort?
Am I putting too much effortinto it?
Ah,
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
okay.
I'm going to label that asuncertainty, right?
And I'm going to come up with afew words that describe what I
think I've heard and you let meknow if it's correct.
So uncertainty, inadequacy,self-conscious, am I doing too
(06:27):
much?
Am I putting enough effort?
There's like a fear of criticismor there's a criticism.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
Yeah, I think fear or criticism is a valid one.
SPEAKER_02 (06:43):
Okay.
So I'm going to say fearseparately, and then you're
self-critical, I imagine.
Yeah.
Okay.
And when you're self-critical,you're judging yourself.
Would you say you're judgmental?
Yes, I'm judgmental.
Okay.
Against myself.
Huge disclaimer.
SPEAKER_03 (07:01):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
yeah, yeah.
So here are the feelings we haveso far.
Self-doubt, uncertainty,inadequacy, self-conscious,
fear.
critical, judgmental.
How about worry or anxiety?
Is that present?
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yes, that is present.
SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
Okay.
Would you say worry and anxietyor just worry or just anxiety?
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
I'd say a mix of both.
Okay.
What about stress?
Do you feel stressed out?
Well, Yes, yes, I do.
I do
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
feel stressed, though.
Okay.
I mean, worry, anxiety, andstress can seem very similar.
Yes.
But, you know, if I were todistinguish them just briefly, I
think I would say worry, sorry,stress is often the kind of
thing that's normative or normalto experience when you have a
(08:04):
task to do or many things to do,because the stress is just about
It's like a pressure being puton your resources, right?
We're just like squeezing youout in a way.
That's the stress.
And then whether or not you'llperform well or your concerns
around how you'll be evaluatedor whether you'll get it done.
To me, that sounds like worryand anxiety would be like almost
(08:29):
a physiological stress.
And sometimes if it is acognitive, it could be a
disproportionate cognitiveresponse where your people will
say, I have racing thoughts orI'm spiraling or my chest is
pounding.
So anxiety in a way is like thephysical response to stress.
And the worry is like theevaluation of like whether you
(08:50):
think, how you think you'll do.
So all in the same family, butit's worth putting them
separate.
Are there other feelings youwould want to put down?
I think you've quite adequatelycaptured quite a bit of them.
I'm going to ask you if there'sa few others.
(09:11):
Excitement?
No.
Eagerness?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
Curiosity?
Eagerness, curiosity, I wouldtell you tempted to say no
because they are rarely present,if at all.
Okay.
What
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
about competition or competitiveness?
No.
Okay.
Sadness?
No, no sadness.
Okay.
Overwhelmed?
That's a good one.
(09:53):
On occasion.
Okay, we'll put it in.
Are there any positive-ishfeelings?
I was hoping you wouldn't askthat.
Sometimes there is.
And I mean, Singapore's workculture, I think, is similar to
us in North America, where likesomething could be terribly
(10:13):
distressing, but a sense ofcompetition is evaluated as a
positive thing.
Not in agriculture, but so Ijust wondered if a competitive
drive was like a positive thing.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
No, for me specifically, there's rarely a
positive response.
SPEAKER_02 (10:32):
Okay, so, all right.
Now we're going to go througheach feeling and I want you to
think about this moment whereyou're reviewing a particular
document and I want you to ratethe feelings on a scale of one
to 10.
And 10 means that you'reexperiencing that feeling the
most intensely and one is notintense at all.
(10:54):
It's kind of in the background.
So you're reviewing a documentin the midst of the work task.
What is your level ofself-doubt?
I'd say it's a seven.
Okay.
What about uncertainty?
A seven.
Inadequacy?
Eight.
(11:15):
Okay.
Self-conscious?
Eight.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Fear?
Fear would probably be a two orthree.
Let's just go with a three.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
And critical?
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Eight.
Oops, oops, oops, oops.
I did a bad thing.
Okay.
Critical?
Eight.
Judgmental?
Eight.
Anxiety?
I'd say this would be a four.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
And worry?
Worry would be an eight.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
And stress?
Stress would be a four.
Okay.
And overwhelm?
Overwhelm would be a two.
Okay.
So...
You've rated a lot of thesepretty high.
I'm curious to know if itimpacts what you do, your
physical behavior during thetask.
(12:14):
So for example, do you avoid, doyou take breaks, do you shuffle
papers around?
Do you take a cigarette break?
I don't know.
Or do you spend much longer onit?
Do you go on social media?
What is your behavior?
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
Great question.
So a lot of my behavior is, Igeneralize it as fidgeting,
right?
Fidgeting is what you'vedescribed some of it.
Browsing my phone, going onReddit, twirling a pen,
shuffling papers, doodling,looking for a video on YouTube.
It's kind of like anything butwanting to do that particular
(12:54):
task.
Let's procrastinate as much aspossible.
Focus is impossible.
And then it's a struggle oftrying to bring the focus back.
Ah, okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Um, now fidgeting and doodling and
procrastinating, these all gowell together and it makes
sense, you know, but when yousay YouTube and Reddit, I get
concerned because those are whatI call rabbit holes.
It's hard to get out of themsometimes.
(13:27):
So I imagine, uh, Are you, doyou end up submitting the
documents late or the work late?
No.
Oh, you end up gettingeverything done on time.
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
I still take immense pressure and pride in myself to
hit and meet deadlines.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
And so I'm just, I'm thinking behaviorally, what does
this look like?
Procrastinate in the beginningand then like you power through
it in the 11th hour?
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
Correct.
I power through it eventually.
SPEAKER_02 (14:04):
I'm going to say power through it in the final
stretch, in the final inning.
I don't really play baseball,but okay.
So you're reviewing thisdocument and you feel
self-doubt, uncertainty,inadequacy, self-consciousness.
(14:25):
Tell me why.
What are the thoughts that areconnected to some of those
feelings?
What are you thinking aboutyourself, the world, your
workplace?
A
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
lot of thoughts is, I mean, starting with, am I
sufficiently good enough?
Am I knowledgeable enough?
Well, equipped enough,experienced enough to be doing
this task and to be doing thistask correctly?
Am I doing something that I amway in over my head and i'm just
(14:58):
going to screw this up and causeproblems for other people down
the road
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
okay so um the way i'm writing it out um is you're
saying you're asking it as aquestion and i'm just putting it
as a statement so i'm notexperienced knowledgeable enough
to be doing this i'm going tomess this up and cause problems
for someone else down the road.
(15:29):
And you also said, I'm in overmy head.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
And it's kind of like another trigger thought
would be, it's only a matter oftime people realize I'm not
qualified to do any of this.
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
It's only a matter of time.
And so this is kind of like, Youfeel like a bit of an imposter,
I'm guessing.
Imposter syndrome is at fullforce, yeah.
Yes, okay.
And what do you think it is thatthey're going to figure out?
That you're not good enough oryou're underqualified?
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
I'm not good enough.
I've basically hoodwinked my waythrough the interview and
they've hired this amazingfraudster who doesn't know
jacked.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Okay.
Okay.
Now tell me about a bit moreabout the critical voice.
What does a critical voice sayto you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
The critical voice is very critical.
It offers a lot of criticismsthat are not very constructive
sometimes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
And And I'm just thinking like, because you're
actually doing the work and someof the thoughts you provided
are, they're overarching.
They're about you, which isimportant.
But I also wonder if there's athought about the work itself,
like this field, like somethinglike this document is complex or
(17:16):
I made a mistake before or, youknow, I don't know, is there
like a piece where your lack ofknowledge is really becoming
central for you?
Like, are you reading thingsthat you're like, I actually
don't know what this means or Ithink I need more training?
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
So my critical voice most of the time views things
as, I'd like to say it as tryingto control fate.
I feel like I am responsible formy actions.
I'm responsible for myreactions.
I'm responsible for knowing whatI'm supposed to do.
Therefore, the critical voiceapproaches everything from that
(17:59):
angle where I might be lookingat a document and as you put it,
it might be too complex for me.
It might be a boring subject.
It might be very written inTahiti for all I know.
My reaction is I should bebetter.
I should have figured out Tahitia long time ago.
I should find a way to make thisdocument interesting.
(18:19):
I should find a way to focus andgo through this document
perfectly 100% of the time.
It's never the fault of thesubject or the assignment giver,
but it is my fault for not beingbetter.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
So I'm responsible for knowing how to do this task,
and I should be able to completeit...
Without a hiccup or without a...
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Without a hiccup.
It needs to be slow.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
Yes.
Okay.
So here are your automaticthoughts.
I'm not experienced orknowledgeable enough to be doing
this.
I'm going to mess this up andcause problems for someone else
down the road.
I'm in over my head.
It's only a matter of time thatpeople will figure out that I'm
a fake or not good enough.
(19:14):
I'm responsible for knowing howto do this task, and I should be
able to complete it without ahiccup.
I should be flawless.
Now, I want to ask a follow-upquestion for I'm going to mess
this up and cause problems forsomeone else down the road.
So tell me about that.
What happens if you do make amistake and you cause a problem
(19:39):
for someone else down the road?
What does that end up lookinglike?
What does it mean for them?
What does it mean for you?
SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
Usually it's not catastrophic.
Mentally, I see it ascatastrophic.
It means I've disappointedsomeone.
I've let them down.
I've not been able to meet andexceed their expectations.
I've essentially forced them tomake a mistake in trusting me.
(20:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
I just want to make sure I get the way you said that
was very powerful, actually.
I have made a mistake.
A mistake in allowing them totrust me.
Is that how you said it?
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
that works.
It's not
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
quite how you said it, though, is it?
I forced them to make a mistakein trusting me.
SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
Oh, okay.
Okay, okay.
I have forced them to make amistake.
If I were to rephrase, I haveforced them to make a mistake,
it's almost like I've duped themor I have, like I've tricked
(21:07):
them.
Yeah.
I've been deceptive, right?
I've deceived them in allowingthem to trust me.
It's an interesting way to thinkabout it.
I'm going to go on to this otherphrase, I'm in over my head,
because it sounds like it'squite similar to I'm not
(21:30):
experienced or knowledgeableenough.
I'm going to say, Sebastian,what if What if you aren't the
most experienced?
What if you don't have all theknowledge?
What does it say about you as aperson?
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
It means I'm an abject failure and I should work
harder.
Wow, I'm an
SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
abject failure and I should work harder.
Can you tell me, what does itmean to be, what does the word
abject mean?
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
complete, horrible, over-the-top, every aspect
possible.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Yeah.
For our viewers, I'm justshowing the synonyms.
Hopeless, miserable, wretched,dismal.
When you say failure and thenyou add an adjective like that,
I just want to emphasize howpowerful that is.
I should work harder.
And, you know, work harder inwhat sense?
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Work harder in...
every sense possible.
If I worked harder, I wouldn'tbe a failure.
If I just worked a bit harder, Ifocused a bit better, I read up
a bit more, I wouldn't be in aposition where there's a risk of
me doing anything wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Okay.
Read, researched, studied, etc.
So if I worked a bit harder,read, researched, studied, I
would be a success?
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
I would be an acceptable level.
Success seems like a very strongword.
SPEAKER_02 (23:27):
Okay.
I would be more acceptable.
Yes.
And when you say moreacceptable, is it as an employee
or as a person?
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
As a person.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
Okay.
it's only a matter of time thatpeople will figure out that I'm
a fake or not good enough.
That was one of your automaticthoughts.
And if they find that out,what's the consequence to your
relationships or for your careertrajectory?
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
I'd get fired.
My career would have an abruptstop.
I will never find another jobever again because now everyone
will know how bad I truly am.
Right.
People will leave me.
I will be all alone.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
I'm really, I'm appreciating that you're talking
about not just the careertrajectory, but a lot.
This is almost the first timeI'm hearing something about the
loss of a relationship.
So people will leave me.
I'll be all alone.
(24:49):
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
So I'm going to leave it there.
That is like, you know, prettygood.
Pretty good as in it's a prettygood list, right?
You've run out of space.
I've run out of space.
But you know what?
(25:09):
In fairness, lots of people goon to the second page when it
comes to automatic thoughts.
So Sebastian, I'd like you tolook at this list of automatic
thoughts and help me identifyone that you think is the most
salient, meaning the mostprominent, that's driving a lot
(25:30):
of the difficult feelings inthis particular situation.
So what is the biggest, mostprominent thought that you, like
negative thought that you'rehaving in this context?
SPEAKER_01 (25:48):
Hmm.
It's like trying to pick afavorite child.
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
Well, here, I'll tell you that sometimes, not
always, but sometimes thethoughts that have the arrows
beneath them, they're a bit moredistilled, meaning they're a bit
more, they might be a bit morecloser to home or closer to the
core issue than the immediatethought.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
I'd say the first one.
Let's go with, I am notexperienced, knowledgeable
enough to be doing this and I'vebeen over my head.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
And before I pick that one, I just want to make
sure it's not one of the onesbelow it that is really central
like that.
Because we're going from thoughtto belief when you say, I'm an
abject failure and I should workharder.
(26:46):
Like that could also be, Iwonder if that's central in how
you see yourself in thissituation.
Yes.
Yes, that would be.
Okay.
It's a central belief.
That is a central belief.
Okay.
So which one do you want topick?
I'm not experiencedknowledgeable enough to be doing
this and I'm in over my head.
Or do you want to pick I'm anabject failure and I should work
(27:07):
harder?
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Let's go with that one, the abject failure one.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Okay.
So I'm just going to bold it.
This is what we call your hotthought.
It's a hot thought because it isthe one that we're going to
evaluate.
And it's the one we've decidedis the most central, salient,
prominent in this situationwhere you're reviewing a
(27:33):
document and you experience allof these feelings, self-doubt,
uncertainty, inadequacy, etcetera.
Now we have to evaluate thisthought.
So Can you give me some evidencethat supports this idea that you
are an abject failure and youshould work harder?
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Oh, boy.
I could be much further along inmy career.
I could be.
It sounds very shallow.
Forgive me.
No, that's okay.
I could be earning more money.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
So I'm not as far along in my career as I'd like
to be.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
And I could be earning more money.
SPEAKER_03 (28:17):
Who are
SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
you comparing yourself to in that moment?
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
So there is always someone who would be making more
money in a more senior position.
It's always an upwardcomparison, no matter how high I
go.
There will always be someone forme to say, hey, this person is
younger and richer.
I should be comparing myself tohim, her.
SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
Yeah, okay.
So I'm not as far along in mycareer as I'd like to be.
I could be making more money.
What's other evidence thatsuggests your failure or that
you should be
SPEAKER_01 (28:55):
working harder?
My relationships, my partners.
My partners are not 100% happyall the time.
By partners, you mean yourpeople at work or your romantic
partners?
I'd say I'll lump it alltogether.
my friends, my romanticpartners, my work colleagues.
(29:20):
So people in my life are notalways happy with
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
me?
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
Yeah, they're not 100% happy, 100% satisfied.
Even if I might not be the onethat caused it, I could have
been the one to help stop thatfrom happening.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
Ah, okay.
So when people in your life arenot happy with you, it's You
think that it's due to ashortcoming of you.
Yes.
Okay, so people in my life, I'mgoing to rephrase it then.
They experience difficultthings, and I'm not able to stop
(30:01):
it or prevent it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
Yes, that's very much better put.
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Now, I'm just thinking here in the context of
work, what kind of experience orknowledge could you have that
you don't currently?
Do you need anothercertification?
(30:31):
Do you need more on-the-jobtraining?
What do you not have that otherpeople do have?
Because it's okay to acknowledgewhat we don't have, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (30:43):
I feel like I lack everything, basically.
I lack of experience.
I lack of intuition.
I lack finesse, timeliness,discipline.
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
Okay,
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
I don't trust my intuition.
And you're saying I'm not greatat...
at organization and timeliness.
Yes.
Okay.
Is there anything else you wantto say or you want me to list as
(31:20):
evidence that supports this ideathat you're an abject failure
and should work harder?
SPEAKER_01 (31:27):
So the evidence would be, I don't know if this
counts as evidence.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
It all just feels like all thesethings are faults that I could
control, are faults that I couldhave fixed on my own end if I
put in more effort into it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Yeah.
And I'm thinking about the partwhere you say you should work
harder.
Do you see people around youworking harder than you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
feel like it's because I'm behind.
I'm lagging behind.
I should put in an extra effortinto it.
In
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
terms of what?
You're lagging behind in termsof what?
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
Because I believe you, I just
SPEAKER_02 (32:11):
want to know what it is.
SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
Yeah?
I appreciate these questions.
I think this is asking me tokind of dig a bit deeper instead
of just touching in on surfacelevel.
So like let's say in Korea, Ithink they are better than me
because they've had more time onthe job or they've come from a
better, more relevantbackground.
or they are just more in tunedwith what the project needs.
(32:36):
And I could be that level if Iput in the time and effort.
SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
So I'm lagging behind my peers.
They're often more attuned towhat the project needs.
Now that's like, okay, thatmakes sense to me.
Now I'm getting a sense of, whyyou think you're failing and you
should work harder and gettingthis image of like, you know,
being on a hamster wheel whereyou just feel like you're
chronically behind everybodyelse.
Yes.
(33:08):
All the time.
Okay.
Now we need evidence that doesnot support the hot thought.
So this might be tough for you.
This is evidence that you're nota failure.
In fact, you're doing well oryou're a success or even that
you're not a failure and you'regetting by, right?
(33:29):
You could also say, these aresituations where I've done the
bare minimum and it's been okay.
I'm not asking you to swing thependulum and, you know, say
you're a wild success, but atleast evidence that suggests
you're not an abject failure,right?
Right.
And some evidence, because thisis a two-parter, some evidence
that speaks to the effort you doput in, right?
(33:52):
Because there's something aboutworking hard here.
So, Help me out.
What is some evidence to suggestthat you're not a failure or
that you do work hard?
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
So this is going to come across strange.
I can give you evidence thatdoes not support the hot
thought.
That to me doesn't feel hard.
The challenging part to me isbelieving any of these
evidences.
Okay, no problem.
So give me the evidence and thenwe'll see where to go from
there.
Let's start with the basics.
I've not been fired ever.
(34:23):
Yeah.
I've not been fired.
I've not been written up.
Every job that I've tried toleave, I've been
counter-offered.
They've tried to retain me.
Wow.
Bosses have, well, sung praises.
It sounds horrible, but they'vegiven very positive
(34:46):
reinforcement, very positivefeedback on what I've been
doing.
I'd say if I want to think backon it, I've progressed in my
career quite a bit faster thanpeople, than my peers, or at
least people that I've grew upwith.
(35:08):
I've never found it verychallenging to find a new job,
even though I am, quote unquote,a serial job hopper.
UNKNOWN (35:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:23):
Easy time finding new work.
So tell me about something thatdoes not support the idea that
you should work harder.
Like something that says, I workhard enough now, or I worked
hard enough on, I rememberworking hard on something and it
paid off.
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
I'd say almost all the projects that I've been
assigned or having to do or havetaken on turns out at least 70%
to 80%, right?
OK.
So things I work
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
on.
That's a pretty good number,
SPEAKER_01 (36:10):
I'm guessing.
Conventionally, it is a goodnumber.
But not for you, of course.
It's not 110.
SPEAKER_02 (36:19):
OK.
Tell me about this kind ofperfectionism and negative
self-talk.
Separate from this chart, wheredoes it come from?
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
It comes...
Well, it probably doesn't comefrom there, but I think one core
belief that ties all of ittogether is me feeling that
perfection is the baseline.
Anything that doesn't meetperfection...
is a failure because it doesn'tmeet the baseline.
(36:54):
Therefore, it is an impossiblestandard.
SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
Yes.
And where does this impossiblestandard come from?
Is it your family?
Is it the culture of Singapore?
Is it your partner?
Is it siblings?
Is it the culture of yourworkplace?
Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
I think, or I have a suspicion that it might be
childhood mixed together withcultural upbringing.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:23):
Can you pinpoint times in your childhood?
And I'm thinking, honestly, youdon't have to dig super deep,
but memories you have or imagesyou have of times where you were
told something wasn't goodenough or a time when you were
proud of something and somebodyelse got praised for doing it
slightly better.
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
Wow.
Where do we start?
So I think your Asian listenerswould identify with the meme of
you've only scored an A minus.
What acceptable standards theseare?
So I think that's quitecommonplace with me growing up
where hitting 90 out of 100 inan exam will come with a
(38:05):
question of you were so close togetting 100.
It's not a bloody hell, you got90.
No, it's you're so close togetting 100.
He's got a band five out of asix band evaluation.
Why couldn't you just hit thatcouple more points to be a
perfect score?
Yes, yes.
A lot of it is from that, Isuppose.
(38:26):
And I think my childhood as Igrew up, I was forced to grow up
very quickly.
My parents were working.
I think when I was in my earlyteens or even when I was 11, 12,
13 years, I was expected toraise my two younger kids
because my parents were toobusy.
Your two younger siblings?
(38:48):
Yeah, so I was the
SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
one.
It's interesting, Sebastian.
Yes, because it's veryinteresting.
Right now you call them my twoyounger kids as opposed to my
two younger siblings.
Oh, dear.
I shouldn't have used siblings.
No, no, it's not about what youshould have done.
We're getting some insight intoa childhood where you didn't
(39:14):
have the option of makingmistakes because you were in
this role model figure.
SPEAKER_01 (39:23):
And that's tough.
Then you'll pair that with anabusive parent, if you will, an
Asian abusive parent.
paternal figure who believes inphysical abuse to reinforce
discipline.
(39:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
And are you saying here, I imagine, you know,
physical abuse leaves an imprinton a lot of people's lives.
Do you think you fear punishmentin a similar way now as an
adult?
SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
I'd say perhaps.
I can't say with certainty.
I fear punishment as an adult,but I am a lot more cautious.
I am a lot more guarded in myapproach when it comes to
things.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (40:21):
And just maybe one or two more questions on this.
Do you, is your father still inyour life?
SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
No,
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
I've cut him off.
Okay.
Did you find yourself Or do youfind yourself thinking about his
approval even now?
Like, no.
Okay, so you're not thinkingabout would dad be proud of me?
Would this be enough for him?
No.
(40:51):
Okay.
I'm going to come back to thisthought record for a moment.
You've given me a lot of contextthat's really rich.
I just want to check in with youfor a moment, though.
How are you feeling?
having gone to some of thedeeper stuff?
I feel great, actually.
I'm loving this process.
(41:13):
Okay.
So look, your automatic thought,the hot thought that we selected
was, I'm an abject failure and Ishould work harder.
Based on the things that are inthese evidence columns and some
of the things we've talkedabout, let's try to come up with
a few alternative thoughts.
Alternative to the one that'sbolded.
(41:34):
Okay.
And let's see what we come upwith.
So I'm going to start us off.
So an example of one would be Iwasn't given an opportunity to
(41:56):
make mistakes as a child.
And I need to allow that formyself as an adult.
So that's a potentialalternative thought, right?
(42:17):
So you're reviewing thedocument.
You think I'm a failure.
I should work harder.
You say to yourself, well, Iwasn't given the opportunity to
make mistakes.
I should allow that for myselfas an adult.
What would be another kind ofalternative thought?
SPEAKER_01 (42:32):
Perfection is a fallacy.
Yes.
Tell me why.
Perfection is a fallacy becauseit's an impossible standard.
It can never be achieved.
SPEAKER_02 (42:45):
Exactly.
And in your workplace, you'renot meant to get it perfect.
That's why you work on a team,no?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I work on a team.
Because I'm not meant to geteverything right on my own.
SPEAKER_01 (43:16):
All right.
Give me one more.
Shifting goalposts is a verydangerous habit to get into.
What does that mean?
Constantly changing the goalswhich I need to achieve in order
to be satisfied.
SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
Okay, so when you talk about changing goals,
you're saying the alternativethought here is like I'm putting
too much pressure on myself orI'm setting the bar so high that
I can't begin?
SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
Setting the bar too high is accurate.
It's setting the bar high andconstantly moving the bar when
I'm approaching it.
SPEAKER_02 (44:09):
and moving it as I approach.
So that's a useful metaphor.
So I'm setting the bar high andmoving it as I approach.
What do you need to doalternatively?
SPEAKER_01 (44:26):
Set realistic standards and make it acceptable
to achieve them.
SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
Yes.
So I'm thinking I'm setting thebar high and moving it as I
approach.
I should allow myself toexperience achievement, content,
(44:54):
achievement, content, resolve.
Maybe resolve is not the rightword.
But does this fit for you as analternative thought?
I'm setting the bar.
Yeah, it does.
Okay.
I should allow myself toexperience achievement, content,
and I don't know what the otherword is, but like something,
(45:17):
allowing something to feel done.
Sense of
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
accomplishment.
SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
Yes.
Maybe one more.
Sensor space on the page.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Alternative thought is?
SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
Here, I want it to be about the working harder
part.
Because it's clear you're not afailure from the evidence.
But this thing about I shouldwork harder.
I wonder if there's a thoughtaround that.
Alternative thought around that.
SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
It's perfectly acceptable to take breaks.
That life isn't always...
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
Acceptable to take breaks.
The other thing I want tomention is your process.
You do a lot of avoiding andthen you get things done.
So I think one thought here isthat I should separate an
(46:32):
unhelpful process from anegative evaluation about the
outcome, right?
Like if you want to use aproductivity tool or somebody
might say, you know, I haveADHD, for example, and I'd say,
oh yeah, you're going to do alot of avoiding and do things at
the last minute.
You might say, I have troublewith the process and I want to
(46:54):
work on that, but I don't needto question the outcome or my
self-worth because those aregood.
Does that make sense?
It does.
I'm going to say I could work onmy process, but I don't need to
(47:16):
question my output orself-worth.
I'm just going to do a little Soof these alternative thoughts,
(47:40):
so you're thinking about thesituation where you're reviewing
a document, you feel self-doubt,uncertainty, inadequacy,
self-conscious, fear,criticalness, judgment, a sense
of being judgmental, anxiety,worry, stress, overwhelmed.
And here are your alternativethoughts.
(48:00):
I wasn't given an opportunity tomake mistakes as a child, and I
need to allow for that.
Allow that for myself as anadult.
Perfection is a fallacy.
It's an impossible standard.
I work on a team because I'm notmeant to get everything right or
done on my own.
I'm setting the bar high andmoving it as I approach.
I should allow myself toexperience achievement, content,
(48:21):
accomplishment.
It's acceptable to take breaks.
I could work on my process, butI don't need to question my
outputs or software.
Which of those do you like best?
Which of those resonates withyou the most?
Or which alternative thought doyou believe the most?
SPEAKER_01 (48:48):
I'd say the first one, the childhood one.
SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
Okay.
So this one really stands out toyou.
I wasn't given an opportunity tomake mistakes as a child.
And I need to allow that formyself as an adult.
While you're doing thisdocument, you're reviewing and
you're doing this, what soundlike, they actually sound like
not mundane tasks, but veryroutine tasks, right?
(49:15):
If you were to pick a secondalternative thought as well from
this list, what would it be?
One
SPEAKER_01 (49:24):
is about childhood.
If I have to pick a second one,it would be, It is acceptable to
take breaks.
SPEAKER_02 (49:34):
Good.
Yeah.
Okay.
So as you kind of meditate andthink about those two, let's
re-rate some of your feelings.
So if you say, I should beallowed to make mistakes and
also it's okay for me to takebreaks.
Mistakes and breaks are okay.
Where's your self-doubt?
SPEAKER_03 (49:59):
Goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
It could be the same.
It could be lower.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
I would put it still the same.
Okay.
Ditto for uncertainty.
Okay.
Maybe a tick lower forinadequacy.
Let's make inadequacy a seven.
A self-conscious a seven.
Okay.
Fear would be a two.
(50:33):
Okay.
Critical?
Critical will still be an eight.
Judgmental will probably be aseven.
Okay.
Anxiety?
Anxiety would be a three.
Worry would be a seven.
Stress would be a three.
Overwhelm would be a one.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (50:55):
Do any new feelings come up for you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
think it's good to kind of see all of this
information presented in thisparticular manner in front
versus having a lot of thesethoughts all trapped up in my
head.
SPEAKER_02 (51:14):
Yeah.
I'm going to ask you about newfeelings, though.
Do you have any self-compassionthat shows up?
SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
It is there, but I'd probably be the one or two for
now.
SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
Optimism?
Optimism isn't there,unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02 (51:39):
No.
What about security orstability?
Because you're kind of saying,like, I can make mistakes, I can
take breaks, but there's notthis fear of losing your job.
So I'm just thinking stabilityis the word that comes to my
mind.
Like, I have this group to play.
SPEAKER_01 (52:00):
That's a good one.
I'd say a tree.
A tree for security isstability.
SPEAKER_03 (52:08):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (52:14):
Any other new feelings?
So no optimism.
No optimism.
What about self-confidence?
Like you know you're going toget the thing done and you're
not going to get fired.
Is there some self-confidencethat shows up?
SPEAKER_01 (52:31):
No, there isn't.
SPEAKER_02 (52:34):
Okay,
SPEAKER_01 (52:34):
okay.
It's still unfortunately verynegative leaning.
SPEAKER_02 (52:39):
Oh, that's okay.
Do you feel
SPEAKER_01 (52:44):
accomplished?
No, because it could always bemore.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (52:54):
Yeah.
I'm wondering if you feelcelebrated, revered, accepted.
appreciated any of those?
SPEAKER_01 (53:09):
Those are big words.
No.
None of them.
Not even
SPEAKER_02 (53:16):
appreciated.
No.
How about do you feel actually,you know what?
I'm not going to force it.
There aren't that many more newfeelings and that's okay.
I do wonder, you know, one thingthat I would say, like if we
(53:41):
were to add, you know, to thealternative thoughts, I think
one thing I would say is I havepositive beliefs about criticism
that don't necessarily serve me.
(54:05):
We're going to talk about this
SPEAKER_03 (54:06):
for a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (54:25):
Does this mean anything to you?
I have positive beliefs about...
I'm just going to put it downhere so it looks like it's
closer to the alternativethoughts.
I have positive beliefs aboutself-criticism that don't
necessarily serve me.
What does that mean to you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (54:42):
have positive beliefs about self-criticism
that don't necessarily serve me.
I'll need your help on that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:51):
Okay.
So I think...
You've come to believe that ifyou criticize yourself and
you're committed toself-criticism in like a
relentless, stubborn kind ofway, it's the only way that you
will get ahead.
I think you've come to believethat self-criticism is what you
(55:17):
need to get motivated.
Because your parents said,You've got a 90, why not a
hundred?
Right?
And so I think what comes fromthat is a belief that if I focus
on what I'm not doing, I won'tbecome complacent.
(55:42):
Does that make sense?
That sounds very accurate.
And so I think that doesn'tserve you anymore because if I
were to take that a stepfurther, I would say, Even when
(56:04):
I'm not perfect, I'm not lazy orcomplacent.
And I think what you haven't hadan opportunity to try is to
(56:26):
develop some positive beliefsabout self-compassion.
So when we talked about youralternative thoughts, it's
interesting, you picked two thatare driven by self-compassion.
Like I wasn't given anopportunity to make mistakes as
a child and I need to allowmyself that now.
(56:47):
And it's acceptable to takebreaks.
Both of those are driven byself-compassion.
But if you put self-criticism,and self-compassion next to each
other.
You don't have any positivebeliefs about self-compassion,
so you're not gonna invest init.
So I would say that you likethose alternative thoughts, but
(57:08):
you don't believe in them.
Because it would take time foryou to say, if I'm kinder to
myself, not only will theoutputs be good, but so I will
enjoy the process a bit more.
(57:28):
You haven't had time to test outthat theory.
So that would be the homework Igive you.
Test out your beliefs aroundself-compassion.
Because right now you probablyhave negative beliefs about
self-compassion, right?
If I go easy on myself or I'mtoo easygoing, I'll slip.
(57:50):
I won't meet my goals, blah,blah, blah.
So now I'm wanting you to say,If I actually take breaks and I
honor my process, can I have agood outcome?
Let's see.
So we slowly have to build upyour positive beliefs for
self-compassion and start tochallenge your positive beliefs
(58:10):
around self-criticism.
I threw a lot at you.
What
SPEAKER_01 (58:18):
do you think?
I think it sounds good.
Perfectly valid.
I think it's amazing.
You've managed to capture thatjust from talking.
And yeah, I like the homework.
The homework sounds like a stepin a positive direction.
SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
Okay, great.
So look, I'm going to put yourhomework.
I'm going to write your homeworkdown so you can remember it.
And when our viewers get to lookat the start record, they'll see
it here too.
homework.
Challenge positive beliefs aboutcriticism and test out what it's
(59:18):
like to rely on compassion,self-compassion, that is.
All right, Sebastian, as we wrapup, I'd love to know, do you
have any final reflections orthings that you want to share or
you'd like to say before we endtoday?
SPEAKER_01 (59:41):
I have quite enjoyed this process, the way you've led
through it.
It's very fascinating.
There are quite a bit ofinsights to it.
And I like how you've tied itall very nicely with a step
forward on how to proceed.
SPEAKER_02 (59:59):
Well, you sound like somebody who enjoys and benefits
from somewhat of a linearprocess.
And my sense is that in yourwork, it doesn't always look as
linear as you would like.
Yes, it's not chaotic.
(01:00:23):
Okay.
Well, Sebastian, thank you somuch for being a guest on the
CBT dive.
It's been a pleasure to have youand to go through some of this
with you.
And I think, I hope that ifthere's listeners either from,
you know, anywhere in the world,but particularly in Singapore,
(01:00:43):
if they are, if this kind of,This ethos around perfection and
hard work resonates with them.
Hopefully it'll be helpful.
So I'm very thankful for yourtime and contribution.
And maybe I'll see you again.
Take care.
Thank you.
Thank you
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:59):
so much for having me on the show.
Take care.
You're very welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:02):
See you soon.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Raheem Thawar, is asocial worker and
(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todiminish mystify what therapy
can look like, and shareintervention skills for
wellness.
We hope that each episode helpsyou along on your own journey
for insight and self-compassion.
SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Hi, Sebastian.
How are you?
I'm great.
Thank you very much.
How are you?
I'm good.
Sebastian, where are you zoomingin from today?
I am zooming in from sunnySingapore today.
Sunny Singapore.
And can you tell me about, likewe're operating in two different
(01:11):
parts of the world.
I'm curious to know if CBT andpsychotherapy is as popular in
Singapore as it's recentlybecome in North America.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
I'd like to think it is.
I'd like to think that amongSingaporeans, at least, there's
a bigger push or I'd say abigger awareness in terms of
therapy, in terms of CBT, interms of mental health,
especially with the past twoyears, one and a half, two
years, everyone's on lockdown,everyone's mental state is just
(01:46):
going whack.
SPEAKER_02 (01:49):
Okay, yeah.
I mean, I can relate to that.
Do you want to share...
just a little bit about whatmakes you interested in seeking
out mental health support oreven your interest in mental
health interventions?
I think I seek
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
it for more selfish reasons.
Especially due to the pandemicsituation, some of the
underlying mental issues I'vestruggled with has made a very
interesting appearance grandappearance you could say flared
up and many things have beentriggered and unearthed and i
think now would be a fantastictime to kind of have them
(02:29):
addressed okay
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
and
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
uh
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
For the listeners and viewers, what we know about
Sebastian so far is that he's 34years old, lives in Singapore,
is married, works in marketing,and some of the things he's
juggling with involve good oldfamily responsibilities and
transitioning between jobs orthrough different roles in the
(02:57):
same workplace.
Is that right?
Yes, that's correct.
Okay.
So here's what we're going todo.
I'm going to transition to ourthought record because Sebastian
and I, we have identified asituation that he feels would be
useful for him to process.
All right.
(03:21):
Sebastian, you can see thatokay?
Yes, I can.
All right, great.
So the situation we're lookingat today is we're You're in the
midst of a work task, right?
What I would say is like a fancymarketing job, which I imagine
you have mixed feelings about.
And you're in the midst of awork task and you have this
(03:44):
sense that you'reunderperforming.
So it's basically, there's afeeling you're having of...
Uncertainty or self-doubt,right?
And one of the examples of thetask would be something as
simple as reviewing a document.
Yeah.
How often do you have to reviewdocuments?
(04:04):
I'd say for my role on a dailybasis.
Okay.
So you have this experiencealmost every day?
Yes, that is correct.
Okay.
And does this...
In this situation, is it adocument that you're reviewing
that later has to be looked atby someone else?
(04:24):
It does normally.
Okay.
And has it been assigned to youby the same person who reviews
it?
Yes, correct.
Okay.
And is some of your uncertainty,unsettledness, self-doubt, is
that connected to the personthemselves, either their role or
their personality?
Yes.
(04:46):
That you're going to bereporting to?
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
I wish it was.
Unfortunately, it's not.
Okay, so you feel fairlycertain.
You're like, this has to do withme.
Yeah, so it feels a lot of ithas to do with me because this
is also something that occurs ondifferent tasks that is assigned
by different people to bereviewed by different parties.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Okay, perfect.
So we've got our situation.
During a work task...
And I have a sense that I'munderperforming.
So you're reviewing a document,right?
So let's just think about thesituation as reviewing a
document.
And let's come up with a list offeelings that describe all the
(05:29):
things you might be feeling,right?
So I said self-doubt already.
I imagine that's true.
What's another feeling thatcomes up for you?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
A feeling, would it be conflict?
A feeling of conflict counts asa feeling.
Yeah, it could.
Tell me more about the conflict.
It's self-conflict of whether amI doing it right?
Is there a better way to do it?
Am I putting enough effort intoit?
Am I not putting enough effort?
Am I putting too much effortinto it?
Ah,
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
okay.
I'm going to label that asuncertainty, right?
And I'm going to come up with afew words that describe what I
think I've heard and you let meknow if it's correct.
So uncertainty, inadequacy,self-conscious, am I doing too
(06:27):
much?
Am I putting enough effort?
There's like a fear of criticismor there's a criticism.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
Yeah, I think fear or criticism is a valid one.
SPEAKER_02 (06:43):
Okay.
So I'm going to say fearseparately, and then you're
self-critical, I imagine.
Yeah.
Okay.
And when you're self-critical,you're judging yourself.
Would you say you're judgmental?
Yes, I'm judgmental.
Okay.
Against myself.
Huge disclaimer.
SPEAKER_03 (07:01):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
yeah, yeah.
So here are the feelings we haveso far.
Self-doubt, uncertainty,inadequacy, self-conscious,
fear.
critical, judgmental.
How about worry or anxiety?
Is that present?
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yes, that is present.
SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
Okay.
Would you say worry and anxietyor just worry or just anxiety?
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
I'd say a mix of both.
Okay.
What about stress?
Do you feel stressed out?
Well, Yes, yes, I do.
I do
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
feel stressed, though.
Okay.
I mean, worry, anxiety, andstress can seem very similar.
Yes.
But, you know, if I were todistinguish them just briefly, I
think I would say worry, sorry,stress is often the kind of
thing that's normative or normalto experience when you have a
(08:04):
task to do or many things to do,because the stress is just about
It's like a pressure being puton your resources, right?
We're just like squeezing youout in a way.
That's the stress.
And then whether or not you'llperform well or your concerns
around how you'll be evaluatedor whether you'll get it done.
To me, that sounds like worryand anxiety would be like almost
(08:29):
a physiological stress.
And sometimes if it is acognitive, it could be a
disproportionate cognitiveresponse where your people will
say, I have racing thoughts orI'm spiraling or my chest is
pounding.
So anxiety in a way is like thephysical response to stress.
And the worry is like theevaluation of like whether you
(08:50):
think, how you think you'll do.
So all in the same family, butit's worth putting them
separate.
Are there other feelings youwould want to put down?
I think you've quite adequatelycaptured quite a bit of them.
I'm going to ask you if there'sa few others.
(09:11):
Excitement?
No.
Eagerness?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
Curiosity?
Eagerness, curiosity, I wouldtell you tempted to say no
because they are rarely present,if at all.
Okay.
What
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
about competition or competitiveness?
No.
Okay.
Sadness?
No, no sadness.
Okay.
Overwhelmed?
That's a good one.
(09:53):
On occasion.
Okay, we'll put it in.
Are there any positive-ishfeelings?
I was hoping you wouldn't askthat.
Sometimes there is.
And I mean, Singapore's workculture, I think, is similar to
us in North America, where likesomething could be terribly
(10:13):
distressing, but a sense ofcompetition is evaluated as a
positive thing.
Not in agriculture, but so Ijust wondered if a competitive
drive was like a positive thing.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
No, for me specifically, there's rarely a
positive response.
SPEAKER_02 (10:32):
Okay, so, all right.
Now we're going to go througheach feeling and I want you to
think about this moment whereyou're reviewing a particular
document and I want you to ratethe feelings on a scale of one
to 10.
And 10 means that you'reexperiencing that feeling the
most intensely and one is notintense at all.
(10:54):
It's kind of in the background.
So you're reviewing a documentin the midst of the work task.
What is your level ofself-doubt?
I'd say it's a seven.
Okay.
What about uncertainty?
A seven.
Inadequacy?
Eight.
(11:15):
Okay.
Self-conscious?
Eight.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Fear?
Fear would probably be a two orthree.
Let's just go with a three.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
And critical?
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Eight.
Oops, oops, oops, oops.
I did a bad thing.
Okay.
Critical?
Eight.
Judgmental?
Eight.
Anxiety?
I'd say this would be a four.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
And worry?
Worry would be an eight.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
And stress?
Stress would be a four.
Okay.
And overwhelm?
Overwhelm would be a two.
Okay.
So...
You've rated a lot of thesepretty high.
I'm curious to know if itimpacts what you do, your
physical behavior during thetask.
(12:14):
So for example, do you avoid, doyou take breaks, do you shuffle
papers around?
Do you take a cigarette break?
I don't know.
Or do you spend much longer onit?
Do you go on social media?
What is your behavior?
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
Great question.
So a lot of my behavior is, Igeneralize it as fidgeting,
right?
Fidgeting is what you'vedescribed some of it.
Browsing my phone, going onReddit, twirling a pen,
shuffling papers, doodling,looking for a video on YouTube.
It's kind of like anything butwanting to do that particular
(12:54):
task.
Let's procrastinate as much aspossible.
Focus is impossible.
And then it's a struggle oftrying to bring the focus back.
Ah, okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Um, now fidgeting and doodling and
procrastinating, these all gowell together and it makes
sense, you know, but when yousay YouTube and Reddit, I get
concerned because those are whatI call rabbit holes.
It's hard to get out of themsometimes.
(13:27):
So I imagine, uh, Are you, doyou end up submitting the
documents late or the work late?
No.
Oh, you end up gettingeverything done on time.
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
I still take immense pressure and pride in myself to
hit and meet deadlines.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
And so I'm just, I'm thinking behaviorally, what does
this look like?
Procrastinate in the beginningand then like you power through
it in the 11th hour?
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
Correct.
I power through it eventually.
SPEAKER_02 (14:04):
I'm going to say power through it in the final
stretch, in the final inning.
I don't really play baseball,but okay.
So you're reviewing thisdocument and you feel
self-doubt, uncertainty,inadequacy, self-consciousness.
(14:25):
Tell me why.
What are the thoughts that areconnected to some of those
feelings?
What are you thinking aboutyourself, the world, your
workplace?
A
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
lot of thoughts is, I mean, starting with, am I
sufficiently good enough?
Am I knowledgeable enough?
Well, equipped enough,experienced enough to be doing
this task and to be doing thistask correctly?
Am I doing something that I amway in over my head and i'm just
(14:58):
going to screw this up and causeproblems for other people down
the road
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
okay so um the way i'm writing it out um is you're
saying you're asking it as aquestion and i'm just putting it
as a statement so i'm notexperienced knowledgeable enough
to be doing this i'm going tomess this up and cause problems
for someone else down the road.
(15:29):
And you also said, I'm in overmy head.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
And it's kind of like another trigger thought
would be, it's only a matter oftime people realize I'm not
qualified to do any of this.
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
It's only a matter of time.
And so this is kind of like, Youfeel like a bit of an imposter,
I'm guessing.
Imposter syndrome is at fullforce, yeah.
Yes, okay.
And what do you think it is thatthey're going to figure out?
That you're not good enough oryou're underqualified?
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
I'm not good enough.
I've basically hoodwinked my waythrough the interview and
they've hired this amazingfraudster who doesn't know
jacked.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Okay.
Okay.
Now tell me about a bit moreabout the critical voice.
What does a critical voice sayto you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
The critical voice is very critical.
It offers a lot of criticismsthat are not very constructive
sometimes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
And And I'm just thinking like, because you're
actually doing the work and someof the thoughts you provided
are, they're overarching.
They're about you, which isimportant.
But I also wonder if there's athought about the work itself,
like this field, like somethinglike this document is complex or
(17:16):
I made a mistake before or, youknow, I don't know, is there
like a piece where your lack ofknowledge is really becoming
central for you?
Like, are you reading thingsthat you're like, I actually
don't know what this means or Ithink I need more training?
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
So my critical voice most of the time views things
as, I'd like to say it as tryingto control fate.
I feel like I am responsible formy actions.
I'm responsible for myreactions.
I'm responsible for knowing whatI'm supposed to do.
Therefore, the critical voiceapproaches everything from that
(17:59):
angle where I might be lookingat a document and as you put it,
it might be too complex for me.
It might be a boring subject.
It might be very written inTahiti for all I know.
My reaction is I should bebetter.
I should have figured out Tahitia long time ago.
I should find a way to make thisdocument interesting.
(18:19):
I should find a way to focus andgo through this document
perfectly 100% of the time.
It's never the fault of thesubject or the assignment giver,
but it is my fault for not beingbetter.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
So I'm responsible for knowing how to do this task,
and I should be able to completeit...
Without a hiccup or without a...
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Without a hiccup.
It needs to be slow.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
Yes.
Okay.
So here are your automaticthoughts.
I'm not experienced orknowledgeable enough to be doing
this.
I'm going to mess this up andcause problems for someone else
down the road.
I'm in over my head.
It's only a matter of time thatpeople will figure out that I'm
a fake or not good enough.
(19:14):
I'm responsible for knowing howto do this task, and I should be
able to complete it without ahiccup.
I should be flawless.
Now, I want to ask a follow-upquestion for I'm going to mess
this up and cause problems forsomeone else down the road.
So tell me about that.
What happens if you do make amistake and you cause a problem
(19:39):
for someone else down the road?
What does that end up lookinglike?
What does it mean for them?
What does it mean for you?
SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
Usually it's not catastrophic.
Mentally, I see it ascatastrophic.
It means I've disappointedsomeone.
I've let them down.
I've not been able to meet andexceed their expectations.
I've essentially forced them tomake a mistake in trusting me.
(20:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
I just want to make sure I get the way you said that
was very powerful, actually.
I have made a mistake.
A mistake in allowing them totrust me.
Is that how you said it?
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
that works.
It's not
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
quite how you said it, though, is it?
I forced them to make a mistakein trusting me.
SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
Oh, okay.
Okay, okay.
I have forced them to make amistake.
If I were to rephrase, I haveforced them to make a mistake,
it's almost like I've duped themor I have, like I've tricked
(21:07):
them.
Yeah.
I've been deceptive, right?
I've deceived them in allowingthem to trust me.
It's an interesting way to thinkabout it.
I'm going to go on to this otherphrase, I'm in over my head,
because it sounds like it'squite similar to I'm not
(21:30):
experienced or knowledgeableenough.
I'm going to say, Sebastian,what if What if you aren't the
most experienced?
What if you don't have all theknowledge?
What does it say about you as aperson?
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
It means I'm an abject failure and I should work
harder.
Wow, I'm an
SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
abject failure and I should work harder.
Can you tell me, what does itmean to be, what does the word
abject mean?
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
complete, horrible, over-the-top, every aspect
possible.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Yeah.
For our viewers, I'm justshowing the synonyms.
Hopeless, miserable, wretched,dismal.
When you say failure and thenyou add an adjective like that,
I just want to emphasize howpowerful that is.
I should work harder.
And, you know, work harder inwhat sense?
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Work harder in...
every sense possible.
If I worked harder, I wouldn'tbe a failure.
If I just worked a bit harder, Ifocused a bit better, I read up
a bit more, I wouldn't be in aposition where there's a risk of
me doing anything wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Okay.
Read, researched, studied, etc.
So if I worked a bit harder,read, researched, studied, I
would be a success?
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
I would be an acceptable level.
Success seems like a very strongword.
SPEAKER_02 (23:27):
Okay.
I would be more acceptable.
Yes.
And when you say moreacceptable, is it as an employee
or as a person?
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
As a person.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
Okay.
it's only a matter of time thatpeople will figure out that I'm
a fake or not good enough.
That was one of your automaticthoughts.
And if they find that out,what's the consequence to your
relationships or for your careertrajectory?
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
I'd get fired.
My career would have an abruptstop.
I will never find another jobever again because now everyone
will know how bad I truly am.
Right.
People will leave me.
I will be all alone.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
I'm really, I'm appreciating that you're talking
about not just the careertrajectory, but a lot.
This is almost the first timeI'm hearing something about the
loss of a relationship.
So people will leave me.
I'll be all alone.
(24:49):
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
So I'm going to leave it there.
That is like, you know, prettygood.
Pretty good as in it's a prettygood list, right?
You've run out of space.
I've run out of space.
But you know what?
(25:09):
In fairness, lots of people goon to the second page when it
comes to automatic thoughts.
So Sebastian, I'd like you tolook at this list of automatic
thoughts and help me identifyone that you think is the most
salient, meaning the mostprominent, that's driving a lot
(25:30):
of the difficult feelings inthis particular situation.
So what is the biggest, mostprominent thought that you, like
negative thought that you'rehaving in this context?
SPEAKER_01 (25:48):
Hmm.
It's like trying to pick afavorite child.
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
Well, here, I'll tell you that sometimes, not
always, but sometimes thethoughts that have the arrows
beneath them, they're a bit moredistilled, meaning they're a bit
more, they might be a bit morecloser to home or closer to the
core issue than the immediatethought.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
I'd say the first one.
Let's go with, I am notexperienced, knowledgeable
enough to be doing this and I'vebeen over my head.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
And before I pick that one, I just want to make
sure it's not one of the onesbelow it that is really central
like that.
Because we're going from thoughtto belief when you say, I'm an
abject failure and I should workharder.
(26:46):
Like that could also be, Iwonder if that's central in how
you see yourself in thissituation.
Yes.
Yes, that would be.
Okay.
It's a central belief.
That is a central belief.
Okay.
So which one do you want topick?
I'm not experiencedknowledgeable enough to be doing
this and I'm in over my head.
Or do you want to pick I'm anabject failure and I should work
(27:07):
harder?
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Let's go with that one, the abject failure one.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Okay.
So I'm just going to bold it.
This is what we call your hotthought.
It's a hot thought because it isthe one that we're going to
evaluate.
And it's the one we've decidedis the most central, salient,
prominent in this situationwhere you're reviewing a
(27:33):
document and you experience allof these feelings, self-doubt,
uncertainty, inadequacy, etcetera.
Now we have to evaluate thisthought.
So Can you give me some evidencethat supports this idea that you
are an abject failure and youshould work harder?
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Oh, boy.
I could be much further along inmy career.
I could be.
It sounds very shallow.
Forgive me.
No, that's okay.
I could be earning more money.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
So I'm not as far along in my career as I'd like
to be.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
And I could be earning more money.
SPEAKER_03 (28:17):
Who are
SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
you comparing yourself to in that moment?
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
So there is always someone who would be making more
money in a more senior position.
It's always an upwardcomparison, no matter how high I
go.
There will always be someone forme to say, hey, this person is
younger and richer.
I should be comparing myself tohim, her.
SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
Yeah, okay.
So I'm not as far along in mycareer as I'd like to be.
I could be making more money.
What's other evidence thatsuggests your failure or that
you should be
SPEAKER_01 (28:55):
working harder?
My relationships, my partners.
My partners are not 100% happyall the time.
By partners, you mean yourpeople at work or your romantic
partners?
I'd say I'll lump it alltogether.
my friends, my romanticpartners, my work colleagues.
(29:20):
So people in my life are notalways happy with
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
me?
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
Yeah, they're not 100% happy, 100% satisfied.
Even if I might not be the onethat caused it, I could have
been the one to help stop thatfrom happening.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
Ah, okay.
So when people in your life arenot happy with you, it's You
think that it's due to ashortcoming of you.
Yes.
Okay, so people in my life, I'mgoing to rephrase it then.
They experience difficultthings, and I'm not able to stop
(30:01):
it or prevent it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
Yes, that's very much better put.
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Now, I'm just thinking here in the context of
work, what kind of experience orknowledge could you have that
you don't currently?
Do you need anothercertification?
(30:31):
Do you need more on-the-jobtraining?
What do you not have that otherpeople do have?
Because it's okay to acknowledgewhat we don't have, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (30:43):
I feel like I lack everything, basically.
I lack of experience.
I lack of intuition.
I lack finesse, timeliness,discipline.
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
Okay,
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
I don't trust my intuition.
And you're saying I'm not greatat...
at organization and timeliness.
Yes.
Okay.
Is there anything else you wantto say or you want me to list as
(31:20):
evidence that supports this ideathat you're an abject failure
and should work harder?
SPEAKER_01 (31:27):
So the evidence would be, I don't know if this
counts as evidence.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
It all just feels like all thesethings are faults that I could
control, are faults that I couldhave fixed on my own end if I
put in more effort into it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Yeah.
And I'm thinking about the partwhere you say you should work
harder.
Do you see people around youworking harder than you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
feel like it's because I'm behind.
I'm lagging behind.
I should put in an extra effortinto it.
In
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
terms of what?
You're lagging behind in termsof what?
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
Because I believe you, I just
SPEAKER_02 (32:11):
want to know what it is.
SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
Yeah?
I appreciate these questions.
I think this is asking me tokind of dig a bit deeper instead
of just touching in on surfacelevel.
So like let's say in Korea, Ithink they are better than me
because they've had more time onthe job or they've come from a
better, more relevantbackground.
or they are just more in tunedwith what the project needs.
(32:36):
And I could be that level if Iput in the time and effort.
SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
So I'm lagging behind my peers.
They're often more attuned towhat the project needs.
Now that's like, okay, thatmakes sense to me.
Now I'm getting a sense of, whyyou think you're failing and you
should work harder and gettingthis image of like, you know,
being on a hamster wheel whereyou just feel like you're
chronically behind everybodyelse.
Yes.
(33:08):
All the time.
Okay.
Now we need evidence that doesnot support the hot thought.
So this might be tough for you.
This is evidence that you're nota failure.
In fact, you're doing well oryou're a success or even that
you're not a failure and you'regetting by, right?
(33:29):
You could also say, these aresituations where I've done the
bare minimum and it's been okay.
I'm not asking you to swing thependulum and, you know, say
you're a wild success, but atleast evidence that suggests
you're not an abject failure,right?
Right.
And some evidence, because thisis a two-parter, some evidence
that speaks to the effort you doput in, right?
(33:52):
Because there's something aboutworking hard here.
So, Help me out.
What is some evidence to suggestthat you're not a failure or
that you do work hard?
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
So this is going to come across strange.
I can give you evidence thatdoes not support the hot
thought.
That to me doesn't feel hard.
The challenging part to me isbelieving any of these
evidences.
Okay, no problem.
So give me the evidence and thenwe'll see where to go from
there.
Let's start with the basics.
I've not been fired ever.
(34:23):
Yeah.
I've not been fired.
I've not been written up.
Every job that I've tried toleave, I've been
counter-offered.
They've tried to retain me.
Wow.
Bosses have, well, sung praises.
It sounds horrible, but they'vegiven very positive
(34:46):
reinforcement, very positivefeedback on what I've been
doing.
I'd say if I want to think backon it, I've progressed in my
career quite a bit faster thanpeople, than my peers, or at
least people that I've grew upwith.
(35:08):
I've never found it verychallenging to find a new job,
even though I am, quote unquote,a serial job hopper.
UNKNOWN (35:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:23):
Easy time finding new work.
So tell me about something thatdoes not support the idea that
you should work harder.
Like something that says, I workhard enough now, or I worked
hard enough on, I rememberworking hard on something and it
paid off.
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
I'd say almost all the projects that I've been
assigned or having to do or havetaken on turns out at least 70%
to 80%, right?
OK.
So things I work
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
on.
That's a pretty good number,
SPEAKER_01 (36:10):
I'm guessing.
Conventionally, it is a goodnumber.
But not for you, of course.
It's not 110.
SPEAKER_02 (36:19):
OK.
Tell me about this kind ofperfectionism and negative
self-talk.
Separate from this chart, wheredoes it come from?
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
It comes...
Well, it probably doesn't comefrom there, but I think one core
belief that ties all of ittogether is me feeling that
perfection is the baseline.
Anything that doesn't meetperfection...
is a failure because it doesn'tmeet the baseline.
(36:54):
Therefore, it is an impossiblestandard.
SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
Yes.
And where does this impossiblestandard come from?
Is it your family?
Is it the culture of Singapore?
Is it your partner?
Is it siblings?
Is it the culture of yourworkplace?
Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
I think, or I have a suspicion that it might be
childhood mixed together withcultural upbringing.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:23):
Can you pinpoint times in your childhood?
And I'm thinking, honestly, youdon't have to dig super deep,
but memories you have or imagesyou have of times where you were
told something wasn't goodenough or a time when you were
proud of something and somebodyelse got praised for doing it
slightly better.
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
Wow.
Where do we start?
So I think your Asian listenerswould identify with the meme of
you've only scored an A minus.
What acceptable standards theseare?
So I think that's quitecommonplace with me growing up
where hitting 90 out of 100 inan exam will come with a
(38:05):
question of you were so close togetting 100.
It's not a bloody hell, you got90.
No, it's you're so close togetting 100.
He's got a band five out of asix band evaluation.
Why couldn't you just hit thatcouple more points to be a
perfect score?
Yes, yes.
A lot of it is from that, Isuppose.
(38:26):
And I think my childhood as Igrew up, I was forced to grow up
very quickly.
My parents were working.
I think when I was in my earlyteens or even when I was 11, 12,
13 years, I was expected toraise my two younger kids
because my parents were toobusy.
Your two younger siblings?
(38:48):
Yeah, so I was the
SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
one.
It's interesting, Sebastian.
Yes, because it's veryinteresting.
Right now you call them my twoyounger kids as opposed to my
two younger siblings.
Oh, dear.
I shouldn't have used siblings.
No, no, it's not about what youshould have done.
We're getting some insight intoa childhood where you didn't
(39:14):
have the option of makingmistakes because you were in
this role model figure.
SPEAKER_01 (39:23):
And that's tough.
Then you'll pair that with anabusive parent, if you will, an
Asian abusive parent.
paternal figure who believes inphysical abuse to reinforce
discipline.
(39:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
And are you saying here, I imagine, you know,
physical abuse leaves an imprinton a lot of people's lives.
Do you think you fear punishmentin a similar way now as an
adult?
SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
I'd say perhaps.
I can't say with certainty.
I fear punishment as an adult,but I am a lot more cautious.
I am a lot more guarded in myapproach when it comes to
things.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (40:21):
And just maybe one or two more questions on this.
Do you, is your father still inyour life?
SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
No,
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
I've cut him off.
Okay.
Did you find yourself Or do youfind yourself thinking about his
approval even now?
Like, no.
Okay, so you're not thinkingabout would dad be proud of me?
Would this be enough for him?
No.
(40:51):
Okay.
I'm going to come back to thisthought record for a moment.
You've given me a lot of contextthat's really rich.
I just want to check in with youfor a moment, though.
How are you feeling?
having gone to some of thedeeper stuff?
I feel great, actually.
I'm loving this process.
(41:13):
Okay.
So look, your automatic thought,the hot thought that we selected
was, I'm an abject failure and Ishould work harder.
Based on the things that are inthese evidence columns and some
of the things we've talkedabout, let's try to come up with
a few alternative thoughts.
Alternative to the one that'sbolded.
(41:34):
Okay.
And let's see what we come upwith.
So I'm going to start us off.
So an example of one would be Iwasn't given an opportunity to
(41:56):
make mistakes as a child.
And I need to allow that formyself as an adult.
So that's a potentialalternative thought, right?
(42:17):
So you're reviewing thedocument.
You think I'm a failure.
I should work harder.
You say to yourself, well, Iwasn't given the opportunity to
make mistakes.
I should allow that for myselfas an adult.
What would be another kind ofalternative thought?
SPEAKER_01 (42:32):
Perfection is a fallacy.
Yes.
Tell me why.
Perfection is a fallacy becauseit's an impossible standard.
It can never be achieved.
SPEAKER_02 (42:45):
Exactly.
And in your workplace, you'renot meant to get it perfect.
That's why you work on a team,no?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I work on a team.
Because I'm not meant to geteverything right on my own.
SPEAKER_01 (43:16):
All right.
Give me one more.
Shifting goalposts is a verydangerous habit to get into.
What does that mean?
Constantly changing the goalswhich I need to achieve in order
to be satisfied.
SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
Okay, so when you talk about changing goals,
you're saying the alternativethought here is like I'm putting
too much pressure on myself orI'm setting the bar so high that
I can't begin?
SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
Setting the bar too high is accurate.
It's setting the bar high andconstantly moving the bar when
I'm approaching it.
SPEAKER_02 (44:09):
and moving it as I approach.
So that's a useful metaphor.
So I'm setting the bar high andmoving it as I approach.
What do you need to doalternatively?
SPEAKER_01 (44:26):
Set realistic standards and make it acceptable
to achieve them.
SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
Yes.
So I'm thinking I'm setting thebar high and moving it as I
approach.
I should allow myself toexperience achievement, content,
(44:54):
achievement, content, resolve.
Maybe resolve is not the rightword.
But does this fit for you as analternative thought?
I'm setting the bar.
Yeah, it does.
Okay.
I should allow myself toexperience achievement, content,
and I don't know what the otherword is, but like something,
(45:17):
allowing something to feel done.
Sense of
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
accomplishment.
SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
Yes.
Maybe one more.
Sensor space on the page.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Alternative thought is?
SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
Here, I want it to be about the working harder
part.
Because it's clear you're not afailure from the evidence.
But this thing about I shouldwork harder.
I wonder if there's a thoughtaround that.
Alternative thought around that.
SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
It's perfectly acceptable to take breaks.
That life isn't always...
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
Acceptable to take breaks.
The other thing I want tomention is your process.
You do a lot of avoiding andthen you get things done.
So I think one thought here isthat I should separate an
(46:32):
unhelpful process from anegative evaluation about the
outcome, right?
Like if you want to use aproductivity tool or somebody
might say, you know, I haveADHD, for example, and I'd say,
oh yeah, you're going to do alot of avoiding and do things at
the last minute.
You might say, I have troublewith the process and I want to
(46:54):
work on that, but I don't needto question the outcome or my
self-worth because those aregood.
Does that make sense?
It does.
I'm going to say I could work onmy process, but I don't need to
(47:16):
question my output orself-worth.
I'm just going to do a little Soof these alternative thoughts,
(47:40):
so you're thinking about thesituation where you're reviewing
a document, you feel self-doubt,uncertainty, inadequacy,
self-conscious, fear,criticalness, judgment, a sense
of being judgmental, anxiety,worry, stress, overwhelmed.
And here are your alternativethoughts.
(48:00):
I wasn't given an opportunity tomake mistakes as a child, and I
need to allow for that.
Allow that for myself as anadult.
Perfection is a fallacy.
It's an impossible standard.
I work on a team because I'm notmeant to get everything right or
done on my own.
I'm setting the bar high andmoving it as I approach.
I should allow myself toexperience achievement, content,
(48:21):
accomplishment.
It's acceptable to take breaks.
I could work on my process, butI don't need to question my
outputs or software.
Which of those do you like best?
Which of those resonates withyou the most?
Or which alternative thought doyou believe the most?
SPEAKER_01 (48:48):
I'd say the first one, the childhood one.
SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
Okay.
So this one really stands out toyou.
I wasn't given an opportunity tomake mistakes as a child.
And I need to allow that formyself as an adult.
While you're doing thisdocument, you're reviewing and
you're doing this, what soundlike, they actually sound like
not mundane tasks, but veryroutine tasks, right?
(49:15):
If you were to pick a secondalternative thought as well from
this list, what would it be?
One
SPEAKER_01 (49:24):
is about childhood.
If I have to pick a second one,it would be, It is acceptable to
take breaks.
SPEAKER_02 (49:34):
Good.
Yeah.
Okay.
So as you kind of meditate andthink about those two, let's
re-rate some of your feelings.
So if you say, I should beallowed to make mistakes and
also it's okay for me to takebreaks.
Mistakes and breaks are okay.
Where's your self-doubt?
SPEAKER_03 (49:59):
Goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
It could be the same.
It could be lower.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
I would put it still the same.
Okay.
Ditto for uncertainty.
Okay.
Maybe a tick lower forinadequacy.
Let's make inadequacy a seven.
A self-conscious a seven.
Okay.
Fear would be a two.
(50:33):
Okay.
Critical?
Critical will still be an eight.
Judgmental will probably be aseven.
Okay.
Anxiety?
Anxiety would be a three.
Worry would be a seven.
Stress would be a three.
Overwhelm would be a one.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (50:55):
Do any new feelings come up for you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
think it's good to kind of see all of this
information presented in thisparticular manner in front
versus having a lot of thesethoughts all trapped up in my
head.
SPEAKER_02 (51:14):
Yeah.
I'm going to ask you about newfeelings, though.
Do you have any self-compassionthat shows up?
SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
It is there, but I'd probably be the one or two for
now.
SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
Optimism?
Optimism isn't there,unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02 (51:39):
No.
What about security orstability?
Because you're kind of saying,like, I can make mistakes, I can
take breaks, but there's notthis fear of losing your job.
So I'm just thinking stabilityis the word that comes to my
mind.
Like, I have this group to play.
SPEAKER_01 (52:00):
That's a good one.
I'd say a tree.
A tree for security isstability.
SPEAKER_03 (52:08):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (52:14):
Any other new feelings?
So no optimism.
No optimism.
What about self-confidence?
Like you know you're going toget the thing done and you're
not going to get fired.
Is there some self-confidencethat shows up?
SPEAKER_01 (52:31):
No, there isn't.
SPEAKER_02 (52:34):
Okay,
SPEAKER_01 (52:34):
okay.
It's still unfortunately verynegative leaning.
SPEAKER_02 (52:39):
Oh, that's okay.
Do you feel
SPEAKER_01 (52:44):
accomplished?
No, because it could always bemore.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (52:54):
Yeah.
I'm wondering if you feelcelebrated, revered, accepted.
appreciated any of those?
SPEAKER_01 (53:09):
Those are big words.
No.
None of them.
Not even
SPEAKER_02 (53:16):
appreciated.
No.
How about do you feel actually,you know what?
I'm not going to force it.
There aren't that many more newfeelings and that's okay.
I do wonder, you know, one thingthat I would say, like if we
(53:41):
were to add, you know, to thealternative thoughts, I think
one thing I would say is I havepositive beliefs about criticism
that don't necessarily serve me.
(54:05):
We're going to talk about this
SPEAKER_03 (54:06):
for a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (54:25):
Does this mean anything to you?
I have positive beliefs about...
I'm just going to put it downhere so it looks like it's
closer to the alternativethoughts.
I have positive beliefs aboutself-criticism that don't
necessarily serve me.
What does that mean to you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (54:42):
have positive beliefs about self-criticism
that don't necessarily serve me.
I'll need your help on that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:51):
Okay.
So I think...
You've come to believe that ifyou criticize yourself and
you're committed toself-criticism in like a
relentless, stubborn kind ofway, it's the only way that you
will get ahead.
I think you've come to believethat self-criticism is what you
(55:17):
need to get motivated.
Because your parents said,You've got a 90, why not a
hundred?
Right?
And so I think what comes fromthat is a belief that if I focus
on what I'm not doing, I won'tbecome complacent.
(55:42):
Does that make sense?
That sounds very accurate.
And so I think that doesn'tserve you anymore because if I
were to take that a stepfurther, I would say, Even when
(56:04):
I'm not perfect, I'm not lazy orcomplacent.
And I think what you haven't hadan opportunity to try is to
(56:26):
develop some positive beliefsabout self-compassion.
So when we talked about youralternative thoughts, it's
interesting, you picked two thatare driven by self-compassion.
Like I wasn't given anopportunity to make mistakes as
a child and I need to allowmyself that now.
(56:47):
And it's acceptable to takebreaks.
Both of those are driven byself-compassion.
But if you put self-criticism,and self-compassion next to each
other.
You don't have any positivebeliefs about self-compassion,
so you're not gonna invest init.
So I would say that you likethose alternative thoughts, but
(57:08):
you don't believe in them.
Because it would take time foryou to say, if I'm kinder to
myself, not only will theoutputs be good, but so I will
enjoy the process a bit more.
(57:28):
You haven't had time to test outthat theory.
So that would be the homework Igive you.
Test out your beliefs aroundself-compassion.
Because right now you probablyhave negative beliefs about
self-compassion, right?
If I go easy on myself or I'mtoo easygoing, I'll slip.
(57:50):
I won't meet my goals, blah,blah, blah.
So now I'm wanting you to say,If I actually take breaks and I
honor my process, can I have agood outcome?
Let's see.
So we slowly have to build upyour positive beliefs for
self-compassion and start tochallenge your positive beliefs
(58:10):
around self-criticism.
I threw a lot at you.
What
SPEAKER_01 (58:18):
do you think?
I think it sounds good.
Perfectly valid.
I think it's amazing.
You've managed to capture thatjust from talking.
And yeah, I like the homework.
The homework sounds like a stepin a positive direction.
SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
Okay, great.
So look, I'm going to put yourhomework.
I'm going to write your homeworkdown so you can remember it.
And when our viewers get to lookat the start record, they'll see
it here too.
homework.
Challenge positive beliefs aboutcriticism and test out what it's
(59:18):
like to rely on compassion,self-compassion, that is.
All right, Sebastian, as we wrapup, I'd love to know, do you
have any final reflections orthings that you want to share or
you'd like to say before we endtoday?
SPEAKER_01 (59:41):
I have quite enjoyed this process, the way you've led
through it.
It's very fascinating.
There are quite a bit ofinsights to it.
And I like how you've tied itall very nicely with a step
forward on how to proceed.
SPEAKER_02 (59:59):
Well, you sound like somebody who enjoys and benefits
from somewhat of a linearprocess.
And my sense is that in yourwork, it doesn't always look as
linear as you would like.
Yes, it's not chaotic.
(01:00:23):
Okay.
Well, Sebastian, thank you somuch for being a guest on the
CBT dive.
It's been a pleasure to have youand to go through some of this
with you.
And I think, I hope that ifthere's listeners either from,
you know, anywhere in the world,but particularly in Singapore,
(01:00:43):
if they are, if this kind of,This ethos around perfection and
hard work resonates with them.
Hopefully it'll be helpful.
So I'm very thankful for yourtime and contribution.
And maybe I'll see you again.
Take care.
Thank you.
Thank you
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:59):
so much for having me on the show.
Take care.
You're very welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:02):
See you soon.
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