August 7, 2022 • 73 mins
When community organizations create roles for people with lived experience, how does this get experienced on the employee side? In this episode, we talk to a harm reduction activist, drug user, and community worker committed to gay men's health. He explores the imposter syndrome and feelings of self-doubt when working next to academics and other credentialed folks.
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Raheem Thawar, is asocial worker and
(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todiminish mystify what therapy
can look like, and shareintervention skills for
wellness.
We hope that each episode helpsyou along on your own journey
for insight and self-compassion.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Hello, Jordan.
Nice to see you today.
How are you?
I'm doing well, Rahim.
How are you?
I am well.
Welcome to the CBT dive.
Before I introduce you, I'd lovefor you to share a little bit
about what drew you toparticipate in this video
(01:08):
podcast.
Other than the fact that Irespect and like you and was
flattered with the invitation,I've been doing a lot of CBT
work in my own personal therapyand I put on breaks for a while,
and so I kind of wanted to getback into it.
And I thought this was a reallygood opportunity to get back
(01:29):
better acquainted with the toolthat I used to use more
frequently than I do now.
So.
Oh, OK, great.
And you know what?
In all honesty, I do love havingsomebody who has some experience
with CBT just because you'regoing to have a sense of the
purpose of the questions I'masking and the tools we're
using, and that will justfacilitate the process a bit
(01:49):
better.
So thank you for saying yourespect me.
I really respect you.
And I'm going to let our guestsknow a little bit about you.
So I have met Jordan throughsome work in the gay men's
health sector in Ontario, inCanada.
They are a Leo.
(02:11):
I'm a Leo rising.
And I'm a Leo rising.
So we're like very similargirls.
They were raised as an onlychild.
They do a lot of activism andadvocacy for queer guys, drug
users, particularly in Toronto.
They love cycling and they lovecats, which are lovely pastimes,
(02:34):
and they enjoy antiquing.
And as a fellow Torontonian, Ihave to say, we don't have a ton
of places to do that, butbetween Jordan and I, we
probably have bought up a lot ofthe Toronto antique stores.
Jordan, would you like to addanything else about yourself
(02:55):
that you think, like that you'djust like to share?
Gosh.
No, I mean, cats and cyclingreally hits it on the head.
That's basically me.
That's my whole life.
That's my whole life.
I collect disco records.
There you go.
That's a thing that I do.
And that's my passion.
I'm very passionate about music,so.
Okay, that is cool.
(03:16):
And are you collecting vinyl?
Are you a vinyl person?
All vinyl, though I do have ahuge CD collection.
I collect vinyl primarily.
Okay.
I have to tell you, I'm veryconfused about this movement
around vinyl because it feelscumbersome to me, so I don't
quite get it.
But maybe you can tell me aboutit another time.
(03:38):
Sounds good.
Okay.
All right, Jordan, I'm going togo ahead and share my screen.
And what I've got up here is athought record, which you might
have seen something like this inthe CBT work that you've done.
Although I've met people who'vedone CBT therapy and have not
necessarily used thoughtrecords.
Have you?
(04:00):
I've used them.
And then for a while, I was kindof doing my own version of it
where I shortened it andcondensed it and like made it
easier to do.
Not as effective, but I've usedthem before.
Okay, great.
And I do think they are tough todo on your own, to be honest.
The situation you and I hadidentified was you were having a
(04:21):
discussion about a workshop yougave with a colleague.
And that workshop went well.
And the two of you were kind ofdebriefing it.
And there was another personpresent.
And the topic of yourpresentation or workshop was on
chem sex.
So for people who are watchingwho don't know, that is about
(04:42):
sexualized drug use,particularly in queer men's
communities.
And you talk about thisexperience of suddenly feeling
competitive with them.
Is there anything else you wantto add to the situation in terms
of context, or does that feelgood?
I think that pretty much hitsthe nail on the head.
I think it's worth noting thatthe other person in the room was
(05:03):
my boss, just because that addssome nuance to it.
Ah, okay.
Okay.
Yeah, that does.
And so the other person who waskind of listening in was your
boss.
Is that right?
Right.
Yeah, I will definitely editthat.
Okay.
And so when we talk about...
the feelings or you think aboutthe feelings that came up in the
(05:25):
moment, the first thing thatyou've already said is you felt
competitive.
What else did you feel in thatmoment?
Let me think back to that.
The first thing I would say Ifelt was, was small, minimal,
minimized, almost likeinconsequential.
Came up with the competitive alot.
(05:47):
Yeah.
Jealous.
Jealous.
I know I felt shame.
I feel shame with most things.
Shame comes up.
(06:08):
There's a sense of like feelingunfair or there's a sense of
injustice almost, like somethingwasn't fair.
I don't know if there's...
Yeah, I would say injustice is afeeling.
within justice can often comelike frustration or anger would
you say you felt angry yeah ifelt angry okay and when someone
(06:34):
feels jealous um i also like isometimes wonder if other
feelings are are piggybackedonto that um and like would
jealousy maybe a sense ofadmiration for the other person?
(06:54):
Or is that a stretch?
No, I don't think that's astretch at all.
I have a lot of admiration forthis person in most of my work.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the other side of the coinfor jealousy is admiration, you
know?
And I think that's important tokeep in mind.
And jealousy actually oftencomes up in situations of three.
(07:20):
And that's because we often feellike we're losing something.
And in this instance, I'mguessing the way your colleague
was talking about their workmade your, maybe caught the
attention of your boss more.
Was that something that washappening for you where you
thought like that this thingwent well was being attributed
(07:43):
to your colleague more thanyourself?
Oh yeah, that was definitelywhat was happening.
I thought for sure that theircontributions were being sort of
looked at with a more favorablelight than mine and that mine
were being looked at as beinginconsequential or not even part
of the narrative.
So yeah, definitely thinkingthat I was being written out of
the story almost.
(08:05):
Okay.
And I'm guessing there's a bitof sadness that you feel in that
moment too.
Yeah, there's a little bit ofsadness and grief around that, I
would say.
Okay.
Grief is strong, but I'll put itdown because later we can rate
the intensity of these feelingsand you're welcome to give it a
(08:27):
lower intensity rating.
Here are some other feelings.
I wonder if you were feeling,were you feeling discouraged?
Yes.
Okay.
What about curious?
(08:50):
No.
No?
You did do well.
And I wondered if you werefeeling celebratory at all or
joyful.
You know, you raise aninteresting point.
I think that feeling was there,but it was like just very
sublimated.
It's like I wanted to feelcelebratory about what we had
(09:12):
done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, before we go further, let'sgo back to this situation
because you and your colleagueare reflecting on the workshop
together.
From your perspective, did youthink that you both did a good
job?
(09:32):
Did you think that yourcolleague in that moment was
exaggerating how much they did?
UNKNOWN (09:37):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
So the thing that was tricky about this particular
presentation was that I was notactually there for it.
I recorded my contribution tothe presentation.
I wasn't able to physically bepresent.
And all the feedback that I goton it, which was very positive,
came like virtually third-handto me, right?
Through my colleague and throughsome emails that I got.
So, yeah, it's a bit tricky.
(10:02):
Yeah, I thought it went well forboth of us, but I don't know for
sure, right?
I don't know how much they lovedit.
his presentation, how much theylove mine.
There's always a bit of doubtwhen somebody is reporting back
to me on how it went.
If somebody is telling me mysection went well, I'm like,
well, they're just being nice.
They're just giving me acompliment.
So there was a bit of like theunknown.
(10:23):
Okay.
And when they, so they werepresent and I'm guessing they
were delivering it virtually aswell.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, those are the timeswe're living in.
Right.
And so would they have been,would they have been watching
your recorded portion at thesame time that it was being
delivered to the largeraudience?
(10:45):
Yes.
Okay.
So they would have anopportunity to say something
about how the audience foundyour work and their work.
Did they talk about both piecesor were they just talking about
how the audience responded tothem?
They were talking about bothpieces.
And in fact, they did go out oftheir way to like highlight the
fact that they really respondedto the content I was delivering
(11:08):
and that it was delivered fairlyeffectively.
Because we got a lot of feedbackon evaluations around my
section.
People liked the idea that wasbeing discussed and the way it
was brought up.
Okay.
So colleagues stated that weboth received good feedback,
which included in...
(11:28):
Included my pre-recordedsession.
Okay.
And did your boss say anythingin that moment?
Honestly, I can't remember if hedid or didn't.
I think he was happy.
I remember him being happy, butthat's about it.
I don't remember anything.
Okay.
All right.
(11:48):
So here is your feelings list.
Competitive, minimized,inconsequential, jealous, shame
or ashamed.
Injustice, angry, admiration,sadness, grief, discouraged,
celebratory, doubt, or doubtful.
Let's rate each of these on ascale of one to 10, 10 being the
(12:10):
most intense that you werefeeling it in that situation,
and one being not very intenseat all.
So competitive?
Let's go with a six or a six,yeah, a six.
Okay.
Oops, I don't know what I justdid.
(12:32):
Give me a sec here.
Undo, undo.
Thank gosh for the undofeatures.
Okay, so six, there we go.
Minimized.
I would say that's an eight.
Okay, inconsequential.
Can I also read that one ineight?
(12:52):
Yeah, of course.
And jealous?
Seven.
Fame?
I would say about a four orfive.
Let's go with a four.
Okay.
Injustice?
(13:13):
Sick.
Angry?
Five.
It's okay.
And these are a lot of feelings,right?
And you're taking yourself backto a particular moment.
So I can appreciate that.
It's not always easy to do thesemood ratings.
(13:34):
What would you say theadmiration was?
I would say it's about a threeor a four.
That's okay.
Okay.
How about sadness?
I would say about a five.
And grief?
(13:57):
Two.
Oops.
Discouraged?
About a six.
Okay.
And celebratory?
I would also say about a six.
Okay.
And the last one is doubtful.
(14:17):
I would say about an eight.
Okay, and this doubtful, to beclear, this is like a kind of
disbelief where you'requestioning whether what this
person's saying that's positiveabout you is actually true,
right?
Yeah.
I want to go to the feeling ofshame for a moment only because,
you know, I like to talk aboutshame.
(14:39):
I know you like to talk aboutshame, but I think, yeah, but it
means different things todifferent people.
And so in this instance, I'mwondering if this shame is more
like a sense of inferiority ormore a sense of embarrassment.
Good question.
My gut says inferiority.
Okay.
(15:02):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm just going to put shameslash inferiority.
Because I think we both knowthat shame can show up in big
ways and small ways.
So I just wanted to clarify.
While you and your colleaguewere having this conversation,
tell me about your behavior.
What did you do during theconversation?
Did you get silent?
(15:22):
Did you participate?
What were you doing?
I did a couple of things.
So number one, I did get silent.
I go quiet in moments like thatwhere I feel very like
overwhelmed.
Yeah.
When I did speak, I actuallyparticipated in, in sort of
(15:44):
denigrating my contribution,like downplaying it and not
like, I almost became like, Ialmost did the thing that I was
thinking my colleague was doing,but I was really downplaying my
contributions and sort of,minimizing my role in the entire
presentation and giving themmore credit perhaps than they
were due.
(16:05):
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So I've got here, became silent,downplayed my own contribution,
gave more credit to mycolleagues than was due.
After this conversation, wasthere anything you did?
Like go for a walk?
UNKNOWN (16:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
consume alcohol?
I don't know.
Anything that was like soothingat all?
Go for a while.
That sounds like a reallyhealthy coping strategy.
I should try it sometime.
Okay.
No, I was at work.
So probably not.
I don't recall directly.
Like, yeah.
Okay.
At my desk for a little whileand then continue with my day.
(16:49):
Yeah.
All right.
So our next column is aboutautomatic thoughts.
And these are the thoughts thatcome up in your mind.
during the difficult situationor during this situation where
you have a mixture of difficultemotions, right?
Sometimes identifying thethoughts right away are a bit
tricky.
(17:09):
So I think about them asautomatic negative thoughts, but
I also think about them assomewhat subconscious thoughts.
So for example, when you werefeeling competitive, what might
you have been thinking?
I wish I was, or I'm not as goodas, or I should work harder at
(17:31):
what were you thinking?
Okay.
Give me a moment with that one,just so I can like reflect on
that moment.
Yeah.
Definitely.
There was a feeling of like, I'mnot as good as, and as competent
(17:51):
as this individual and everybodycan see that.
That was part of that thought.
Okay.
And everyone can see that, okay?
And when I think competitive,I'm thinking there may be a
(18:13):
thought, like some kind ofself-talk about you saying more
or you...
describing more about what yourcontribution was.
Did you, was that going on foryou in the back of your mind?
Like where you had a voice thatwas saying, Jordan, say more,
say more.
It's a good question.
(18:37):
I'm sure that is something thatdoes come up for me in
situations like this quiteoften.
I'm not as aware of it though,because I'm very aware of the
voice.
It's like, don't say anything,don't say anything.
But there is a part of me thatalways wants to like, you know,
speak up, like make a space foryourself.
Don't let them get more creditthan they deserve, which is...
(18:58):
I'm not going to judge thatthought.
You're judging that thought.
Okay, so I'm going to write herethe thought I'm coming up with.
And you can tell me if it fitsor you're not.
But I think it's a should.
It's a, I should speak up aboutmy contribution.
(19:19):
And...
I shouldn't praise myself toomuch.
Would you say that's thetension?
Like there's these two thoughtshappening together.
I should speak up about mycontribution and I shouldn't
praise myself too much.
(19:39):
Yep, that would be the tension.
Okay, okay.
And...
If your work is inconsequential,like you use inconsequential as
a feeling, right?
So if you're feelinginconsequential or inferior,
what are you thinking there?
So you already told me thatyou're not as competent as your
(20:01):
colleague and everyone can seethat.
But were you also secondguessing?
To me, that's about how yourcolleague is talking about the
work they did.
not about the, you know, side byside, your recorded presentation
versus his live lecture, youknow, were you retrospectively
(20:21):
kind of doubting the quality ofyour work?
Were you thinking I should havesaid more or I should have been
there live?
Was there that kind of thinking?
Definitely there was, I shouldhave been there live.
And if I organized my lifebetter, I could have been there
live because I would have no wayof like ascertaining and seeing
people's reaction to what I did.
(20:41):
And then, you know, because I'dseen the presentation after the
fact, there's that secondguessing that comes from like
finding every fault that I couldwith that content.
Yeah.
What else came up for me aroundthat?
Well, I don't value them thesame.
(21:02):
I think an in-personpresentation is more valuable
than what I did.
I see.
UNKNOWN (21:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
in-person presentation is more valuable.
Okay.
And why is that?
Because in my mind, it takesmore skill to be in the moment
of presenting live andfacilitating learning live than
it is to pre-record somethingwhere you can just record it and
record it and record it untilit's perfect.
(21:31):
And there's not engagement withyour audience in that case,
right?
It's basically a lecture versusan engaging sort of learning
opportunity or discussion.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm going to come back to these.
These are jam-packed withgoodness, I will say, or
richness.
Tell me a bit about thedoubtfulness, where you're
(22:01):
feeling doubtful about thepositive comments and feedback
from the audience.
You're doubtful because...
Or if the audience said goodthings about what you
contributed, you doubt it,because why?
That's a really good question.
And I don't think about that onetoo often.
(22:21):
I just doubt because I doubt.
I have a distrust when peoplesay nice things about the work
that I do because I feel thatthey're just trying to be fair
or nice or polite.
I take it more as people arebeing polite when they're being
nice and they're being truthfulwhen they're being critical.
So I don't put as much value oncompliments.
(22:44):
Okay.
So I don't trust complimentsbecause I assume people are
being...
polite but you also saidsomething about criticisms i
might have missed it what wasthat last part you said i take
criticism as the honest truththat people when they're
critical of you they're tellingyou the actual truth about what
they think oh okay okay so youtake criticism as honesty but in
(23:13):
your mind there isn't reallyroom for positive feedback as
honesty yeah Okay, okay.
Here are the automatic thoughtswe've got so far.
I'm not as competent as mycolleague and everyone can see
that.
I should speak up about mycontribution and I shouldn't
praise myself too much.
If I organized my life better, Icould have been present live and
(23:37):
heard the comments firsthand.
An in-person presentation ismore valuable than what I did
because it takes more skill topresent in real time.
And the last automatic thoughtyou have is, I don't trust
compliments because I assumepeople are being polite.
I take criticism as honesty.
So let's go back to some ofthese.
(23:59):
Where you say, I'm not ascompetent as my colleague, and
everyone can see that.
In what way are you less skilledthan your colleague, do you
think?
Okay.
(24:20):
I'll be honest with you.
What was he good at?
Yeah.
So my colleague is not a druguser.
So they work in the same fieldthat I do, but they're not a
drug user and I am.
So I tend to have a higherregard for people who are doing
that work from a place ofsobriety or whatever you want to
call it than I do.
(24:42):
My work is informed by livedexperience.
I don't have any academicbackground in the work that I'm
doing.
And also, if I'm hearing thisright, Jordan, sorry, you feel
like, I just want to clarify,you're saying here that you
(25:07):
would be less competent thansomebody who has an academic
background because livedexperience isn't worth as much
or is not valued as much?
Yeah, that's basically what I'msaying.
I know it would intellectuallybe wrong or not perhaps the most
correct way of thinking, but Istill feel and think that way.
(25:28):
It's a very deeply held beliefthat my drug use really isn't
credible.
It isn't worth much.
Okay.
I'm just going to write thisdown.
So my lived experience isn't asvaluable as the colleague who
doesn't have lived experience ofdrug use.
(25:52):
Now, tell me a bit more.
Who has told you that?
Or why do you think that?
I'm not going to disagree withit.
I'm just trying to figure outwhere it came from.
Because maybe he does knowsomething that you don't know.
I'm just trying to figure outwhat that thing is.
(26:13):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't really thinkthere is something he doesn't
know that I don't know.
But I guess that's one.
Knowing that and embodying thatare two different things.
Where does that come from forme?
I guess it's because throughmost of my, I don't know how far
(26:33):
I want to go into this, but thatthought has been present with me
for a long time.
Back when we used to be insobriety and in 12-step sort of
recovery, a thing that I sort ofgot the idea of was that my drug
use tainted everything that Idid.
It was a lot upon like everygood that I did in the world was
diminished by that use.
And so I've sort of gotten tothis place where I believe that
(26:56):
lived experience isn't really,for me, lived experience isn't
valuable.
I also over academics because Igrew up in a household where
academic accomplishment was theonly way I got validation.
And it was the only sort of,yeah.
Okay.
(27:16):
So we've got a couple ofthoughts here that clearly are
not like, necessarily consciousthoughts but they're they're
flowing under the river they'revery much like the undercurrent
here right um so i'm just goingto type this out one thing that
you're saying is everything thati do okay sorry my lived
(27:38):
experience isn't as valuable asthe colleague who doesn't have
lived experience of drug useacademic knowledge is more
valuable and usually gets morevalidation and that is your
experience um and everything yousaid this thing that you know
(28:01):
you've thought for a whileeverything that i do is tainted
by my drug use in some way howin what way wow i don't know if
i can break down exactly what ithink it's okay but i just feel
it's more like a it's tainted byit and i don't really want to
like break it down because Iknow that it doesn't have a lot
(28:22):
of legs to stand on.
Okay, okay, no problem.
How about we try this?
Jordan, what if someone else'sacademic knowledge is more
celebrated than the knowledgethat you bring?
What if that's true?
What's the long-term consequenceof that?
(28:43):
What does that mean for youprofessionally or personally?
Um...
Okay.
I want to make sure I understandthe question just so I'm clear.
So if that's true, like thisperson's academic knowledge is
more valued than what I'mbringing to the table, what does
that mean in the background forme and my life?
(29:04):
What does it say?
Yeah.
What is the consequence of thatfor you personally or
professionally?
I mean, personally, I reallydon't know if I can, Figure out
what that would mean for mepersonally.
Professionally, it might meanlike a lack of opportunity or
like not being able to access ordo the work that I want to do.
Okay.
(29:25):
Right?
So it's kind of like I'll neverexperience like upward mobility
in my work life or in my career?
Right.
Those folks who have theacademic experience and
background will get ahead.
I won't.
that i'll just sort of besitting here the token kind of
(29:46):
guy who uses drugs and onlycontributing up to a certain
extent and that work only beingexpected up to a certain extent
um okay um personally um i thinki can't necessarily get to the
(30:06):
thought i can get to the feelingi think personally it would mean
that i would feel very very Iwould feel less than I would
feel like I'd failed because forme, academics also represents a
thing that I've neveraccomplished in my life.
So I've never finisheduniversity, et cetera.
And so I, we remind me again oflike past failure and sort of
bring me back to that place of.
(30:30):
Yeah.
So we were moving from almost athought to a belief that I'm a
failure or not.
having academic legitimacy orcredentials.
(30:54):
Now, I think actually I'm goingto read these out to you and
just like see how they feel.
We started with I'm not ascompetent as my colleague and
everyone can see that.
And so then I said, okay, inwhat way or why is that?
(31:15):
And you said, well, your livedexperience isn't as valuable as
the colleague who is an academicessentially and doesn't have
lived experience.
And then you said, well, whywould that be?
Academic knowledge is morevaluable and usually gets more
validation.
So far, these are like, some ofthese are almost, factual from
(31:39):
your perspective.
I'm not saying they are facts,but I think from your
perspective, you've come to seethem as pretty factual.
Yeah.
And then we get into likeanother factual thing that
you're saying here is likeeverything that I do is tainted
by my drug use in some way.
So I think you really came tobelieve that.
And maybe that was true.
I don't know.
But then the last two bulletswe've got here are actually
(32:04):
about the consequences of thosefacts.
So if that fact is true, or ifthis thing is true, then this is
what it says about me or mylife.
So it says that I'm a failurefor not having academic
legitimacy or credentials, orI'll never experience upward
mobility as a person who is thetoken with lived experience.
(32:25):
So these two are kind of,they're really catching my eye
at the moment.
And we'll come back to those.
I wanna go down to this thoughtyou had where you said, if I
organize my life better, I couldhave been present live and heard
the comments firsthand.
(32:45):
Now, I don't know if you neededto hear the comments firsthand
or if you needed to be live, butyou've put some value to being
able to do something like thatlive.
And you've also said that anin-person presentation is more
(33:05):
valuable, right?
Because it requires thisthinking on the spot skill.
Now, tell me a bit about, like,what do you mean by if I
organize my life better?
Do you struggle withorganization?
Is that a theme in your life?
Yeah, currently it's been atheme for the past couple of
years.
And in terms of schedulingthings, double booking things is
(33:28):
quite common for me, you know,like not organizing my day
correctly and being late forthings is a new thing, but still
a common occurrence.
And I can't remember what it wasabout this presentation, but I
think I had double booked.
I said I could do it.
And then it turns out I was busythat day and I couldn't break
out of the previous commitmentto go be there.
(33:48):
Okay.
Yeah.
Is organizing your work life astruggle or is it also in your
personal life?
All of my life.
Okay.
Okay.
And is this, like, is this aboutlike a hint of like ADHD that's
operating?
(34:09):
Is it part of the drug use?
Is it a sleep, like issues withsleep?
Like what, what do you, what isit connected to, do you think?
So I don't know about the ADHDthing.
I once was going to investigatethat and never followed through.
So to me, the belief is thatit's due to my drug use.
And mostly the issues I havewith sleep and cognitive ability
(34:31):
and memory and whatnot.
Okay.
So it's interesting, like thepresentation is about drug use
and how it operates inparticular communities.
And it's the very thing that ina way you struggle with.
That's like one of the sideeffects, right?
Or the unintended consequences.
(34:57):
Now, is there a thought herewhere you're judging yourself in
that moment?
So you're saying to yourself, Iwish I could have made it in
person.
I couldn't.
Let's say it's because of mydrug use.
Is there a thought there aboutyou as a drug user?
Oh, yes.
I mean, there's bad thoughts.
(35:17):
What is that thought exactly?
Like if I didn't use drugs,blah, blah, blah, or.
Use drugs, my life would bebetter.
This wouldn't be happening.
And that I would be morecompetent, more able to do the
things that I value doing.
Right.
There's also a thought around.
Sorry, go ahead.
(35:38):
So is that, I just want to makesure that is a, that is an
actual thought you have.
Like if you weren't using drugs,things in your life would be
better.
Yep, it's an actual thought.
Okay, I just want to Okay.
I sorry, you were gonna saysomething else.
Did you want to add something tothat?
Um, gosh, no, I can't remember.
(36:01):
I lost my train of thought onthat one.
It'll come back to me, though.
Okay.
And when you say things in yourlife would be better.
What are you talking about here?
Is it like, Likeorganizationally, you think you
would be just a bit morestructured or what?
(36:24):
I think I would be betterorganized.
I would be more present.
I wouldn't make so many smallmistakes like with scheduling
with, yeah.
Okay.
More present, fewer errors,better scheduled.
Okay.
I hear that.
I hear that.
Okay.
There's also another piece ofthis very full statement where
(36:48):
you're talking about why anin-person presentation is more
valuable and that it relies oncertain skills.
Do you think you don't havethose skills or do you feel sad
that you missed an opportunityto showcase those skills?
So it's mostly the second one,but there's a belief that I'm
(37:11):
losing those skills to do to mydrug use.
And this was an opportunity toshowcase them, and now I can't.
OK, so I missed an opportunityto showcase my skills.
And I'm just going to put asemicolon there because
connected to it is this worrythat I'm losing my skills due to
(37:35):
drug use.
Thinking going on in my head.
Well, it's a difficult headspaceto be in, right?
Because you are supportingpeople and trying to combat and
resist stigma that comes withdrug use.
And it's an isolating place whenthen you as the non-activist,
(37:57):
but the person that's just youin your home, for example,
you're thinking, okay, Like, Iwish there wasn't so much stigma
about drug use.
I wish people didn't dehumanizedrug users.
But also, I do wonder what mylife would look like if this had
a smaller role in my life, or,you know, it seems like there's
(38:18):
not necessarily a space for youto process.
Just the like, the impact ofdrug use, while also being kind
to yourself while also doing thework that you do, like the work
that you do positions you almostto be in defense of, and then
(38:42):
your personal experiencepositions you to be in this
headspace around behaviorchange.
And I imagine that's verychallenging.
Do you want to speak to thatjust a little bit?
Yeah, no, you're right.
It is very challenging and it'sa struggle for the past couple
of years, especially doing thevery public work that I'm doing
now, where I'm speaking outabout it a lot more.
I almost feel like I have to belike present in person as a
(39:05):
strong and like capable personwho does have control over the
drug use.
And so the conflict comes when Ilook at my own life and I say,
well, that's not how it actuallyis.
And it doesn't feel like I havea lot of avenues to like talk
about that other than when I'mworking with my therapist and
that's like, twice a month.
A lot of time it can be reallydraining and I can sort of feel
(39:27):
like a hypocrite or I think thatI'm a hypocrite a lot of the
time because of this sort ofcontrast.
I still haven't figured out howto be kind to myself in all of
this.
I hold myself to a higherstandard than I would anybody
else.
Like there's a different set ofrules for me than there are for
other folks who are goingthrough the same issue.
I believe that.
I believe that that is how youoperate.
(39:50):
Look, what I've written downhere as another thought is, and
let me know if it's correct.
I have to present.
I'm going to use the word showup.
I think it's a bit more clear.
I have to show up as someone whois confident and managing my
drug use well, even thoughsometimes I struggle.
All right.
(40:14):
Now, If you constantly, likethere's this pressure around you
have to show up a particularway, what happens if you don't?
What's the consequence?
Like people are, I think youalluded to this, people will
think you're a fraud or you'rean imposter or something like
(40:34):
that.
Impostor is definitely part ofit.
I think there's a belief thatpeople will see me for who I
actually think I am, which islike a hot mess.
You know, I'm afraid that peoplewill like see through that and
that they'll see that I reallydon't have it all together.
And then they will use it asfurther evidence that what I'm
trying to do is like, like thatthe stigma is really there for a
(40:59):
reason, because really allpeople who use drugs are just
messy, incompetent, lazy,stupid, all those things.
Okay.
So what I'm writing here is, Ijust wanna make sure I'm
(41:22):
capturing it.
If I don't show up as quoteunquote put together, people
will use it against me and inopposition to my anti-stigma
work.
Is that right?
Did I capture that okay?
Yeah.
I think you hit the nail on thehead with that.
Okay.
Cause when I read it, it feels abit confusing, but I think I've
(41:42):
got it.
Yeah.
Like if I show up as thestereotype, then people are
going to be like, he's a joke.
What is he talking about?
You know, like why is headvocating for the people who
are drug users when he can'teven, you know, pull himself
together to like do this work.
Yes.
Okay.
UNKNOWN (42:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
usually against me.
And I'm just going to make itless confusing against my
anti-stigma work.
Okay.
So look, so far, I'm just goingto highlight a couple of
thoughts that I think arereally, they're really jumping
out at me.
Actually, no, I'm not going todo that.
That's not my job.
Hold on.
I'm going to ask you to do that.
(42:23):
So what I want you to do here isthink about which of the
thoughts, and it's likely goingto be the thoughts that are like
the consequence ones, the lessof the ones that seem like facts
to you, but more of theconsequence ones, which of them
do you think are most salientand driving a lot of your
(42:46):
negative feelings, right?
So the competitiveness, feelinginferior, feeling jealous,
discouraged, doubtful, etcetera, right?
So I'm going to read them outloud once more.
That's primarily for theaudience.
But you can kind of meditate onit and say, yeah, this is the
one.
This is the most salient, themost prominent one.
(43:10):
So I'm a failure for not havingacademic legitimacy or
credentials.
I'll never experience upwardmobility as a person who is the
token, who is always the tokenwith lived experience.
Okay.
And then we've got, if I didn'tuse drugs, things in my life
(43:33):
would be better, more present,fewer errors, better scheduled.
I missed an opportunity toshowcase my skills and I'm
losing skills due to drug use.
I have to show up as someone whois confident in managing my drug
use well, even though sometimesI struggle.
If I don't show up as puttogether, people will use that
against me and my anti-stigmawork.
(43:56):
Which of these do you think isreally standing out to you as
prominent, salient, driving thedifficult feelings?
I would say that there's acouple of them, but the one that
jumped out the most is if Ididn't use drugs, things in my
life would be better as thedriving, right?
Okay.
(44:16):
What's the other one?
Just out of curiosity.
It's a tough call because theone about the upward mobility
kind of jumped out at me.
I was surprised by that.
Because the academic one is anolder thought, and I've always
had that thought.
It's been there before thissituation.
But the one about uppermobility, I don't believe I'll
go anywhere in life, right?
(44:37):
Okay.
And that I'll be left behindalmost.
And it's a big one that wasdriving that competitive feeling
with my colleague.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you know what?
Let's add that as anotherthought.
Because that's truly aconsequence.
I'll be left behind.
(44:58):
And I'm happy to put that inbold as well, because I think it
is related to the otherthoughts.
So I'll just read it out again.
The one you first selected was,if I didn't use drugs, things in
my life would be better, morepresent, fewer errors, better
scheduled.
And there's a worry that I'll beleft behind.
(45:18):
Now we're going to go to thenext column.
And this is the column where weare coming up with evidence from
your life that supports the hotthought.
The hot thought is the prominentthoughts that we've put in bold.
And so just for aestheticpurposes, I'm going to bring
(45:41):
this up here so we can see bothof them together.
Jordan, tell me about evidencein your life, things that have
happened where you'veexperienced being left behind
where, you know, you've come torealize or you've appreciated in
(46:04):
moments that not using drugs hasbeen better for your life.
Where do these thoughts comefrom?
Can we start with the secondone?
Just because that one's easier.
So I know that when I hadsobriety in my life, which I had
a number of years of sobriety,that my cognitive function
didn't improve.
I didn't experience the amountof everyday challenge with
(46:26):
everyday living, like making itto appointments or not double
booking things, I was able toshow up more.
It was pretty clear to me.
Okay.
So...
I'm glad we put two things inbold because what you're telling
(46:51):
me is that if I didn't usedrugs, some things in your life
would be better.
And that also is, it seems likeit's factual based on like your
experience, but you also havethis belief that you'll be left
behind.
(47:11):
Is there evidence of that inyour life?
Are you feeling stagnant or leftbehind?
I think, again, it's only when Ican look at other people in
their lives that I ever feelthat I'd be left behind because
I feel other people have gone onto accomplish a lot more at
similar ages than I have.
I've always felt left behindbecause I never finished
university when most of my peersdid.
(47:32):
Yeah, I've always felt like I'vejust been lagging behind in
terms of maturity, in terms ofaccomplishment.
And I know that these things arearbitrary and like socially
constructed a lot of the timeand not necessarily things I
need to hang my self-esteem orself-worth on, but I do.
Yeah.
(47:53):
Yeah.
Okay.
We're going to come back tothat.
I've got some stuff to say thatwe're going to stick to this
process.
So you've, you've said yourother people my age have done
more or have accomplished more.
I've always felt like I'mlagging behind.
I didn't, Finish university.
(48:13):
Okay.
So in these certain ways, youhave been left behind, so to
speak.
Now, is there evidence in yourlife that doesn't support this
idea that drug use...
(48:35):
alone is what would make, likelimiting drug use alone is what
would make your life better orthat you are not left behind?
Evidence that doesn't supportthat.
I mean, certainly like there wasalso difficulty in my life when
I wasn't using drugs and I can'tsay that using, not using drugs
(48:57):
would make my life better in allways.
I guess it doesn't support thatthought.
So there were still difficultiesin my life when I wasn't using
drugs.
So that's important to know.
It's not just like one thing.
Another alternative thoughthere, I mean, I would suggest
(49:21):
is, sorry, not alternativethought.
Another piece of evidence hereis that I was on a panel.
I'm on many panels with peoplewho have formal education.
and people like what I have tosay.
I'm just gonna put that in asevidence.
(49:42):
I've been on panels with equalfooting as others.
And those people are sometimesacademics.
Are there other ways where youhaven't been left behind?
(50:05):
you know, I think my entirecurrent, like, I think currently
I don't feel like I feel leftbehind in my current work that
I'm doing.
I feel like I've like, I feellike I'm on the cusp of
something.
I feel like I'm on the edge ofsomething.
I'm doing really interestingwork at a really interesting
time.
Um, I feel like I'm in themoment almost, um, which is odd
(50:26):
to say I felt I'm worried aboutbeing left behind when I feel
very much in the momentcurrently.
Um, Yeah.
Also, I've accomplished, despiteall those challenges, I've
accomplished quite a bit interms of like, for somebody
who's using drugs and hasproblems with them sometimes,
I'm actually accomplishing quitea bit.
(50:48):
Give me an example, because Iknow you have accomplished a
lot.
I just want to name it.
Gosh.
What do I want to start with?
I'll start with the fact that Icreated the first gay men's
drop-in for guys who party andplay in Toronto and Ontario.
ever, which was kind of cool.
(51:08):
And, you know, what's been doingwith the GMSH, the survey that
we did, the campaign that I'vebeen working on in collaboration
with everybody here, like that'sa big piece.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
Great.
Okay.
(51:30):
So your automatic negativethought, is that if I didn't use
drugs, things in my life wouldbe better.
More present, fewer errors,better scheduled.
But it's tied to a larger fearthat you'll be left behind.
And I think that's what we'rereally focusing on here, it
(51:51):
seems.
When you look at the evidencethat supports the idea that
you've already been left behind,or if you continue this way, you
will be left behind, evidencethat does not support that idea.
What are some things you mightsay to yourself that are
actually helpful and counterthis idea that I'll be left
(52:13):
behind?
Okay.
This is the one I alwaysstruggle with when I did CBT, is
the alternative thoughts.
It is hard.
But let me ask you something.
Do you want to be an academic?
(52:34):
Do you want to go back and getthose credentials?
Yes and no.
Yes, I do.
I do.
I do.
Let's not unpack that one anyfurther because there's a lot of
fear there.
But I do want to go back and getthose credentials.
And my life is not over yet.
I could still pursue thosethings if I so choose.
(53:02):
I value other people's livedexperience as being of equal
value to academic expertise.
Like I really do.
So I don't accept in courtesy tomyself.
So I think that's an importantalternative thought to have is
like, I value other people'slived experience.
Why can't I do, not why can't Ido that for myself?
I can do that for myself aswell.
(53:22):
Okay.
So I value other people's oops.
lived experience.
Oh my gosh, I'm a typingnightmare here.
This happens around the thishappens toward the end, I start
to start to lose my touch.
(53:46):
Okay, so read those twoalternative thoughts to me and
just let's see how they feel foryou.
I can go back and get academiccredentials if they choose what
I have to offer is alsovaluable.
I value other people's livedexperience and I should value my
own as well.
That one, I think most resonancefor me.
(54:07):
And I feel like, yeah, I believethat because it reminds me.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think you might need morealternative thoughts because
Jordan, we're living in a worldwhere I think you're right.
Some things are going to be by adominant culture valued more.
(54:30):
Right.
And so I think we need analternative thought here about
perhaps you carving out your ownpath and you being the source of
your own legitimacy.
I don't quite know how to phraseit.
What do you think?
I think that's a really goodpoint.
I also don't know how to phrasethat, but you know, one thing
(54:56):
that I, sometimes try and remindmyself of that could be an
alternative thought is that noone is doing what you're doing.
No one's been doing what you'vebeen doing.
So there is no, there's nostandard, I guess I can compare
myself to.
There's no standard.
Yes.
(55:17):
And I think I want to get alllike critical theory here is
like, I often think about like,well, why, Do we value academic
contributions?
Where is that coming from?
Is it a societal thing?
What's that informed by?
And then I can kind of like lookat it and say, well, this is
like Western sort of systems ofknowledge and the patriarchy and
(55:38):
all that jazz and colonialism.
That's what makes academiclearning so valued.
It comes from a reallyproblematic place.
So why am I ascribing myself tothat set of values when I don't
value those things?
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (55:51):
It's a little bit complicated, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:54):
So I'm going to write here, I don't necessarily
value.
Actually, I'm going to pausehere for a second because part
of you does want to get academiccredentials.
Like there's a longing for that.
So there's a tension there, youknow?
(56:14):
So I'm not going to say that youdon't value where it comes from.
How about, I think what might bemore accurate is, Just as I'm
critical of contributions thatare rooted in lived experience,
(56:43):
I'm also critical of academiccontributions.
Right.
And that works really well,actually.
Yeah, so both types ofcontributions can be judged or
criticized, right?
Now, the sentiment here, itmakes me think about what it
(57:10):
means to be left behind.
And you talked about comparingyourself to people in your age
group or your peers.
Is there an alternative thoughthere about who you should
compare yourself to, or is therereally no one you can compare
(57:31):
yourself to?
I don't really feel like there'sa lot of value in comparing
myself.
I feel it's a really destructivekind of thing in my life.
Sorry, my alarm's going off onmy phone.
I feel like it's not been a veryproductive way of sort of
evaluating my contributions orwhat I'm doing, because it's
always in comparison to otherpeople.
(57:52):
I know we're social creaturesand all that jazz, but I don't
think I should be comparingmyself to people who are
necessarily my peers.
A, I have no idea about theirlife experience and what led
them to accomplish all thosethings at that certain time or
age.
And it also really diminishesthe role that like, Like my past
has had in shaping my present,like trauma, like the life I had
(58:16):
growing up as a kid and all ofthat sort of journey gets
diminished because doing anapples for apples comparison
about like age or, you know, whowent to school and finished
school.
There's a lot of other thingsthat happened in my life that
created this sort of trajectoryI've been on.
So it's not a thing to compare.
UNKNOWN (58:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (58:34):
One other thing I want to tackle in the
alternative thoughts is thisidea that things would be better
if you didn't use drugs.
But if you didn't currently usedrugs, what would be what would
be missing in your life or whatwould you lose?
What would you not be able todo?
I think that like I think aboutthis a lot.
(58:58):
I think some of what I wouldlose is, you know, a connection
to the community that right nowI'm really relying on to like do
the work that I'm doing.
But I think I would lose, Iwould lose, I would lose a lot
of connection with people rightnow because drug use represents
connection for me.
I don't know if that's where youwere going or you're trying to
(59:20):
tie it more.
Yeah.
No, no, no, no.
That's perfect.
So drug use representsconnection for me.
And, I guess you're saying I'dlike to maintain that connection
at the moment.
Yeah, I would.
Yeah.
(59:42):
It's not that that can neverchange or that there aren't
other forms of connection outthere, but you're talking about
just the value, right, of theseconnections.
And I think that's important.
And I think that's somethingthat I know a lot of other
people don't get.
Right.
But I think we get that.
I mean, you get that more than Ido, but I get that from working
(01:00:03):
in the field.
You get that from livedexperience.
And here we are.
So, Jordan, I'm going to ask youto read all of the alternative
thoughts out loud.
And I want you to see how theyfeel for you.
And by the end of it, I want youto pick one that you think you
believe the most, you like themost, you think that is the most
helpful.
UNKNOWN (01:00:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:25):
All right, so I can go back and get academic
credentials if I choose.
What I have to offer is alsovaluable.
I value other people's livedexperience and I should value my
own as well.
No one is doing what I'm doing,so there is no way to compare
myself in an objective way.
And just as I'm critical ofcontributions that are rooted in
lived experience, I'm alsocritical of academic
(01:00:45):
contributions.
Drug use represents connectionfor me and I'd like to maintain
that connection right now.
there one no that was it yeahwell that's good that makes
that's good all right which onedo you believe the most which
one fits most for you when youthink about the original
situation you know you'retalking to your colleague and
(01:01:08):
you feel like you're being leftbehind and you're being critical
of your own drug use i am goingto say that it is number two
that has the most like It feelsthe most believable.
It feels like something that I'mwilling to believe.
Yeah.
And you know, when people dothings like affirmations, one
(01:01:30):
thing that I worry about is thatit's not always a statement that
they believe strongly.
And so for you, I like thatyou're saying this is something
I believe in.
So I value other people's livedexperience and I should value my
own as well.
And when you say that toyourself and you believe it, how
do you then rate youraffirmations?
(01:01:51):
Feeling of competitiveness.
Okay, how do I read it?
I would say it's like maybe at atwo.
Okay.
Like I'm not very competitive atall.
Feeling minimized.
I would say maybe like at athree or a two.
Let's go with three.
(01:02:12):
Okay.
Inconsequential.
Three.
Jealous.
Two.
Okay.
And just so you know, it's okayif some of these remain high.
I'm not...
But if it's going down, that'salso great.
Okay.
How about your sense of shame orinferiority?
(01:02:34):
I'd say about a four.
That's a constant one for me.
It's...
That's okay.
Yep.
Injustice?
Two.
Angry?
One.
Admiration?
Let's go with a four for that.
(01:02:55):
Yeah.
Sadness.
One.
Grief.
One.
Discouraged.
Probably a four.
Celebratory.
I'd say about a six.
(01:03:18):
And doubtful.
I'd say about a five.
Okay.
Jordan, do any new feelings comeup for you when you're having
this discussion?
We're talking about, you know,your boss is there.
You're talking about, you know,the positive feedback you both
received.
Even though you weren't there,you're telling yourself, you
(01:03:40):
know, Because part of where youweren't there maybe had to do
with organization and that maybewas related to drug use.
But you're saying to yourself,this is how I show up in the
world and I value other people'slived experience and I should
value my own as well, right?
What else are you feeling inthis moment?
Are there other feelings?
(01:04:01):
Like what's showing up for meright now in this moment is like
a sense of like, there's also asense of like self-compassion, I
guess, or self-love.
Self-love.
But like a little bit of likethat compassionate feeling,
which is nice.
And yeah, there's definitely asense of content.
Yeah.
Content.
And I think pride seems like abig one, like pride.
(01:04:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
What about achievement?
Achievement.
Yeah.
I would say that's there.
as well.
I think that's maybe more what Imeant by pride than pride
itself.
I think achievement is moresalient.
That's okay.
I love all the feeling words.
(01:04:48):
Do you feel a sense of team orcamaraderie that comes up?
Definitely.
I'm just thinking about what'sdifferent than competition,
yeah?
Yeah, a sense of collaboration,a sense of team spirit.
Team spirit.
Team spirit.
(01:05:12):
And team spirit really, youknow, is like the feeling is
often belonging.
So I'll just put that in there.
So Jordan, this has taken us tothe end of the thought record,
right?
And I'm curious to know, like alot of people do this and their
mood ratings or their Thepresent feeling ratings don't
(01:05:36):
necessarily go down a lot.
Yours happen to.
Tell me a bit about what thisprocess has been like for you or
any reflections on what youmight have learned.
Well, I've learned that I havean awful lot of thinking going
on in my head when I'm in thesesituations.
It's a good reminder, though,that there are so many different
layers and types of thoughts.
(01:05:59):
My feelings went down because,A, I've got the benefit of
looking at it from a greatdistance where I'm not as in
touch with those immediatefeelings.
So it's easier for me to say,well, they're downplayed or
they've lowered.
But I also think that what thisexperience did was reminded me a
lot of the idea that most of thefacts that I'm basing my
(01:06:20):
thoughts off of are not corrector not accurate.
And so the feelings don't feelas...
I'm not as connected to thosefeelings because I realize
there's a bit of a fallacy or abit of a false belief underneath
a lot of them.
The thing about valuing otherpeople's lived experience is why
(01:06:41):
do I extend that to otherpeople?
And yet I'm making an exceptionfor myself to get worse.
It's like, well, okay, I getwhere that comes from.
And like, no, I really shouldvalue my own work.
And like, why would Iparticipate in a system of
oppression and myself?
Like, you know, yeah.
Lives matter.
Their, their experiences matter.
They're not the only experience,but like there's the equal space
(01:07:04):
at the table.
So absolutely.
And, you know, okay.
So I really enjoyed doing thiswith you because it gave me a
sense of all the variety ofthings that you're thinking
about and, in this moment that'sso deeply personal, but it's
also about your work.
It's about your family history.
It's about who you arepolitically, right?
(01:07:27):
There's a number of things thatare coming together here.
And I think one thing, you know,that stood out to me was you are
you're really trying to carveyour own path.
It seems to me like you're liketrailblazing in a way.
(01:07:49):
And so if you were to say, I'vebeen left behind, you know, more
accurately, there's things thatI've not, I've chosen not to
participate in, or I haven'tbeen able to cause they weren't
created for minds like me, youknow, or for, or for spirits
(01:08:10):
like me.
Um, Because in a sense, like,sure, you know, if you said, I
want to be an academic and now Iwant to go back to school.
Yeah, that it's factual thatthat might be harder for you now
than it was at a different time,perhaps.
(01:08:32):
Right.
But I don't think that's.
misses the point and the pointhere is that you're doing things
you're trying to do it in adifferent way in accordance with
some of your values right um ithink one of the things that
really stood out for me also wasthe predicament you're in as
somebody who's an active druguser and you're politically in
(01:08:55):
defense of preserving thehumanity of people who are drug
users, but you are also at timesfalling apart on the inside, or
it seems that way.
And I think we have to come upwith a statement, or you might
think about coming up with astatement that holds multiple
truths, where like, I could makechanges to my drug use if I
(01:09:20):
really need to, and that doesn'tmake me a less valuable
advocate, Or I can at times fallapart in front of people and
that doesn't make my messageless valuable.
You know, like I'm thinkingabout pairing two different
statements with an and thatallows multiple truths to exist.
And I think that's veryimportant.
(01:09:41):
You're smiling.
What are you thinking?
That second one that you said, Iwas like, oh, I don't like that
one.
Oh, which one?
The one about I can fall apartand it doesn't make my message
any less valuable.
I was like, oh, that challengesme so much.
But the useful one or somethinglike that is useful for me
because I struggle the most withthat, which is when I'm not all
(01:10:04):
together, which is some of thetime.
I abandon myself quite a lot inthose moments and I just berate
myself.
And so I would rather have astatement that reminds me that
like, I can be a mess.
Everybody's a mess sometimes,right?
I don't see other people'smesses maybe in the same way I
see mine.
Yeah.
Or experiencing the same way,but everybody falls apart.
And yeah, it doesn't.
(01:10:29):
And, and, you know, the, thephrase I like for that, that I
often draw on is I can't compareother people's outsides to my
insides.
You know, do that though.
I'm like, Oh, you know, so.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (01:10:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:45):
Jordan, before we end today, is there anything
else you want to say or share orreflect on, or even ask about
CBT, this process before we wrapup?
So doing this on my own hasalways been a struggle or
challenge for me.
Like it's really great that Ican bounce this off of you.
(01:11:05):
And it's also, eminentlyimpractical to do this on a
daily basis with every singlethought that's coming into my
head.
I'm working on this on my own tomake it a more engaging
experience or to like make it amore useful experience or one
that I'll pick up from time totime again.
Right.
You know, I would suggest thatyou think like the situation
that's difficult, as soon asit's passed, like it's in the
(01:11:29):
recent past, I would think aboutjust two or three feelings that
were coming up.
Maybe what the thoughts arerelated to those.
And when you identify thethoughts, the key question to
ask yourself is, what does thissay about me or my life?
Or what is the consequence ofthis if it's true?
(01:11:52):
And then right away, come upwith an alternative.
UNKNOWN (01:11:57):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:11:57):
Because when we ask the question, what does this say
about me if this is true?
What is the consequence of thisto my life?
That is the belief that isunderneath that thought that is
kind of factual to you.
And that's what we want toshift, the belief.
Right.
Okay.
(01:12:18):
That seems accessible.
Those questions about the thingsabout my life were the powerful
ones for me in this experienceas well.
When you asked those questions,I was like, oh, huh.
Yeah.
And I think it's also importantwhen we come up with alternative
thoughts to be realistic, right?
Like an alternative thoughtcould have also been, if I
(01:12:39):
didn't use drugs, I'd be able toschedule better, but I'd be a
lot more lonelier.
That's like, that could be analternative thought, you know,
if it's helpful and you believein it.
All right.
Jordan, thank you so much forbeing a guest on the CBT Dive.
And thank you for doing theimportant work that you do.
(01:13:00):
I hope you continue to findspaces where you can talk about
your own nuanced experiences asan activist, as a person with
lived experience, and a personwho's making important
contributions to gay men'shealth.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13:22):
Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to our YouTube channelat thecbtdive.ca.
You can also listen on the gowherever you get your podcasts.
To follow Rahim on social media,check out ladyativan.com.
See you soon.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Raheem Thawar, is asocial worker and
(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todiminish mystify what therapy
can look like, and shareintervention skills for
wellness.
We hope that each episode helpsyou along on your own journey
for insight and self-compassion.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Hello, Jordan.
Nice to see you today.
How are you?
I'm doing well, Rahim.
How are you?
I am well.
Welcome to the CBT dive.
Before I introduce you, I'd lovefor you to share a little bit
about what drew you toparticipate in this video
(01:08):
podcast.
Other than the fact that Irespect and like you and was
flattered with the invitation,I've been doing a lot of CBT
work in my own personal therapyand I put on breaks for a while,
and so I kind of wanted to getback into it.
And I thought this was a reallygood opportunity to get back
(01:29):
better acquainted with the toolthat I used to use more
frequently than I do now.
So.
Oh, OK, great.
And you know what?
In all honesty, I do love havingsomebody who has some experience
with CBT just because you'regoing to have a sense of the
purpose of the questions I'masking and the tools we're
using, and that will justfacilitate the process a bit
(01:49):
better.
So thank you for saying yourespect me.
I really respect you.
And I'm going to let our guestsknow a little bit about you.
So I have met Jordan throughsome work in the gay men's
health sector in Ontario, inCanada.
They are a Leo.
(02:11):
I'm a Leo rising.
And I'm a Leo rising.
So we're like very similargirls.
They were raised as an onlychild.
They do a lot of activism andadvocacy for queer guys, drug
users, particularly in Toronto.
They love cycling and they lovecats, which are lovely pastimes,
(02:34):
and they enjoy antiquing.
And as a fellow Torontonian, Ihave to say, we don't have a ton
of places to do that, butbetween Jordan and I, we
probably have bought up a lot ofthe Toronto antique stores.
Jordan, would you like to addanything else about yourself
(02:55):
that you think, like that you'djust like to share?
Gosh.
No, I mean, cats and cyclingreally hits it on the head.
That's basically me.
That's my whole life.
That's my whole life.
I collect disco records.
There you go.
That's a thing that I do.
And that's my passion.
I'm very passionate about music,so.
Okay, that is cool.
(03:16):
And are you collecting vinyl?
Are you a vinyl person?
All vinyl, though I do have ahuge CD collection.
I collect vinyl primarily.
Okay.
I have to tell you, I'm veryconfused about this movement
around vinyl because it feelscumbersome to me, so I don't
quite get it.
But maybe you can tell me aboutit another time.
(03:38):
Sounds good.
Okay.
All right, Jordan, I'm going togo ahead and share my screen.
And what I've got up here is athought record, which you might
have seen something like this inthe CBT work that you've done.
Although I've met people who'vedone CBT therapy and have not
necessarily used thoughtrecords.
Have you?
(04:00):
I've used them.
And then for a while, I was kindof doing my own version of it
where I shortened it andcondensed it and like made it
easier to do.
Not as effective, but I've usedthem before.
Okay, great.
And I do think they are tough todo on your own, to be honest.
The situation you and I hadidentified was you were having a
(04:21):
discussion about a workshop yougave with a colleague.
And that workshop went well.
And the two of you were kind ofdebriefing it.
And there was another personpresent.
And the topic of yourpresentation or workshop was on
chem sex.
So for people who are watchingwho don't know, that is about
(04:42):
sexualized drug use,particularly in queer men's
communities.
And you talk about thisexperience of suddenly feeling
competitive with them.
Is there anything else you wantto add to the situation in terms
of context, or does that feelgood?
I think that pretty much hitsthe nail on the head.
I think it's worth noting thatthe other person in the room was
(05:03):
my boss, just because that addssome nuance to it.
Ah, okay.
Okay.
Yeah, that does.
And so the other person who waskind of listening in was your
boss.
Is that right?
Right.
Yeah, I will definitely editthat.
Okay.
And so when we talk about...
the feelings or you think aboutthe feelings that came up in the
(05:25):
moment, the first thing thatyou've already said is you felt
competitive.
What else did you feel in thatmoment?
Let me think back to that.
The first thing I would say Ifelt was, was small, minimal,
minimized, almost likeinconsequential.
Came up with the competitive alot.
(05:47):
Yeah.
Jealous.
Jealous.
I know I felt shame.
I feel shame with most things.
Shame comes up.
(06:08):
There's a sense of like feelingunfair or there's a sense of
injustice almost, like somethingwasn't fair.
I don't know if there's...
Yeah, I would say injustice is afeeling.
within justice can often comelike frustration or anger would
you say you felt angry yeah ifelt angry okay and when someone
(06:34):
feels jealous um i also like isometimes wonder if other
feelings are are piggybackedonto that um and like would
jealousy maybe a sense ofadmiration for the other person?
(06:54):
Or is that a stretch?
No, I don't think that's astretch at all.
I have a lot of admiration forthis person in most of my work.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the other side of the coinfor jealousy is admiration, you
know?
And I think that's important tokeep in mind.
And jealousy actually oftencomes up in situations of three.
(07:20):
And that's because we often feellike we're losing something.
And in this instance, I'mguessing the way your colleague
was talking about their workmade your, maybe caught the
attention of your boss more.
Was that something that washappening for you where you
thought like that this thingwent well was being attributed
(07:43):
to your colleague more thanyourself?
Oh yeah, that was definitelywhat was happening.
I thought for sure that theircontributions were being sort of
looked at with a more favorablelight than mine and that mine
were being looked at as beinginconsequential or not even part
of the narrative.
So yeah, definitely thinkingthat I was being written out of
the story almost.
(08:05):
Okay.
And I'm guessing there's a bitof sadness that you feel in that
moment too.
Yeah, there's a little bit ofsadness and grief around that, I
would say.
Okay.
Grief is strong, but I'll put itdown because later we can rate
the intensity of these feelingsand you're welcome to give it a
(08:27):
lower intensity rating.
Here are some other feelings.
I wonder if you were feeling,were you feeling discouraged?
Yes.
Okay.
What about curious?
(08:50):
No.
No?
You did do well.
And I wondered if you werefeeling celebratory at all or
joyful.
You know, you raise aninteresting point.
I think that feeling was there,but it was like just very
sublimated.
It's like I wanted to feelcelebratory about what we had
(09:12):
done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, before we go further, let'sgo back to this situation
because you and your colleagueare reflecting on the workshop
together.
From your perspective, did youthink that you both did a good
job?
(09:32):
Did you think that yourcolleague in that moment was
exaggerating how much they did?
UNKNOWN (09:37):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
So the thing that was tricky about this particular
presentation was that I was notactually there for it.
I recorded my contribution tothe presentation.
I wasn't able to physically bepresent.
And all the feedback that I goton it, which was very positive,
came like virtually third-handto me, right?
Through my colleague and throughsome emails that I got.
So, yeah, it's a bit tricky.
(10:02):
Yeah, I thought it went well forboth of us, but I don't know for
sure, right?
I don't know how much they lovedit.
his presentation, how much theylove mine.
There's always a bit of doubtwhen somebody is reporting back
to me on how it went.
If somebody is telling me mysection went well, I'm like,
well, they're just being nice.
They're just giving me acompliment.
So there was a bit of like theunknown.
(10:23):
Okay.
And when they, so they werepresent and I'm guessing they
were delivering it virtually aswell.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, those are the timeswe're living in.
Right.
And so would they have been,would they have been watching
your recorded portion at thesame time that it was being
delivered to the largeraudience?
(10:45):
Yes.
Okay.
So they would have anopportunity to say something
about how the audience foundyour work and their work.
Did they talk about both piecesor were they just talking about
how the audience responded tothem?
They were talking about bothpieces.
And in fact, they did go out oftheir way to like highlight the
fact that they really respondedto the content I was delivering
(11:08):
and that it was delivered fairlyeffectively.
Because we got a lot of feedbackon evaluations around my
section.
People liked the idea that wasbeing discussed and the way it
was brought up.
Okay.
So colleagues stated that weboth received good feedback,
which included in...
(11:28):
Included my pre-recordedsession.
Okay.
And did your boss say anythingin that moment?
Honestly, I can't remember if hedid or didn't.
I think he was happy.
I remember him being happy, butthat's about it.
I don't remember anything.
Okay.
All right.
(11:48):
So here is your feelings list.
Competitive, minimized,inconsequential, jealous, shame
or ashamed.
Injustice, angry, admiration,sadness, grief, discouraged,
celebratory, doubt, or doubtful.
Let's rate each of these on ascale of one to 10, 10 being the
(12:10):
most intense that you werefeeling it in that situation,
and one being not very intenseat all.
So competitive?
Let's go with a six or a six,yeah, a six.
Okay.
Oops, I don't know what I justdid.
(12:32):
Give me a sec here.
Undo, undo.
Thank gosh for the undofeatures.
Okay, so six, there we go.
Minimized.
I would say that's an eight.
Okay, inconsequential.
Can I also read that one ineight?
(12:52):
Yeah, of course.
And jealous?
Seven.
Fame?
I would say about a four orfive.
Let's go with a four.
Okay.
Injustice?
(13:13):
Sick.
Angry?
Five.
It's okay.
And these are a lot of feelings,right?
And you're taking yourself backto a particular moment.
So I can appreciate that.
It's not always easy to do thesemood ratings.
(13:34):
What would you say theadmiration was?
I would say it's about a threeor a four.
That's okay.
Okay.
How about sadness?
I would say about a five.
And grief?
(13:57):
Two.
Oops.
Discouraged?
About a six.
Okay.
And celebratory?
I would also say about a six.
Okay.
And the last one is doubtful.
(14:17):
I would say about an eight.
Okay, and this doubtful, to beclear, this is like a kind of
disbelief where you'requestioning whether what this
person's saying that's positiveabout you is actually true,
right?
Yeah.
I want to go to the feeling ofshame for a moment only because,
you know, I like to talk aboutshame.
(14:39):
I know you like to talk aboutshame, but I think, yeah, but it
means different things todifferent people.
And so in this instance, I'mwondering if this shame is more
like a sense of inferiority ormore a sense of embarrassment.
Good question.
My gut says inferiority.
Okay.
(15:02):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm just going to put shameslash inferiority.
Because I think we both knowthat shame can show up in big
ways and small ways.
So I just wanted to clarify.
While you and your colleaguewere having this conversation,
tell me about your behavior.
What did you do during theconversation?
Did you get silent?
(15:22):
Did you participate?
What were you doing?
I did a couple of things.
So number one, I did get silent.
I go quiet in moments like thatwhere I feel very like
overwhelmed.
Yeah.
When I did speak, I actuallyparticipated in, in sort of
(15:44):
denigrating my contribution,like downplaying it and not
like, I almost became like, Ialmost did the thing that I was
thinking my colleague was doing,but I was really downplaying my
contributions and sort of,minimizing my role in the entire
presentation and giving themmore credit perhaps than they
were due.
(16:05):
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So I've got here, became silent,downplayed my own contribution,
gave more credit to mycolleagues than was due.
After this conversation, wasthere anything you did?
Like go for a walk?
UNKNOWN (16:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
consume alcohol?
I don't know.
Anything that was like soothingat all?
Go for a while.
That sounds like a reallyhealthy coping strategy.
I should try it sometime.
Okay.
No, I was at work.
So probably not.
I don't recall directly.
Like, yeah.
Okay.
At my desk for a little whileand then continue with my day.
(16:49):
Yeah.
All right.
So our next column is aboutautomatic thoughts.
And these are the thoughts thatcome up in your mind.
during the difficult situationor during this situation where
you have a mixture of difficultemotions, right?
Sometimes identifying thethoughts right away are a bit
tricky.
(17:09):
So I think about them asautomatic negative thoughts, but
I also think about them assomewhat subconscious thoughts.
So for example, when you werefeeling competitive, what might
you have been thinking?
I wish I was, or I'm not as goodas, or I should work harder at
(17:31):
what were you thinking?
Okay.
Give me a moment with that one,just so I can like reflect on
that moment.
Yeah.
Definitely.
There was a feeling of like, I'mnot as good as, and as competent
(17:51):
as this individual and everybodycan see that.
That was part of that thought.
Okay.
And everyone can see that, okay?
And when I think competitive,I'm thinking there may be a
(18:13):
thought, like some kind ofself-talk about you saying more
or you...
describing more about what yourcontribution was.
Did you, was that going on foryou in the back of your mind?
Like where you had a voice thatwas saying, Jordan, say more,
say more.
It's a good question.
(18:37):
I'm sure that is something thatdoes come up for me in
situations like this quiteoften.
I'm not as aware of it though,because I'm very aware of the
voice.
It's like, don't say anything,don't say anything.
But there is a part of me thatalways wants to like, you know,
speak up, like make a space foryourself.
Don't let them get more creditthan they deserve, which is...
(18:58):
I'm not going to judge thatthought.
You're judging that thought.
Okay, so I'm going to write herethe thought I'm coming up with.
And you can tell me if it fitsor you're not.
But I think it's a should.
It's a, I should speak up aboutmy contribution.
(19:19):
And...
I shouldn't praise myself toomuch.
Would you say that's thetension?
Like there's these two thoughtshappening together.
I should speak up about mycontribution and I shouldn't
praise myself too much.
(19:39):
Yep, that would be the tension.
Okay, okay.
And...
If your work is inconsequential,like you use inconsequential as
a feeling, right?
So if you're feelinginconsequential or inferior,
what are you thinking there?
So you already told me thatyou're not as competent as your
(20:01):
colleague and everyone can seethat.
But were you also secondguessing?
To me, that's about how yourcolleague is talking about the
work they did.
not about the, you know, side byside, your recorded presentation
versus his live lecture, youknow, were you retrospectively
(20:21):
kind of doubting the quality ofyour work?
Were you thinking I should havesaid more or I should have been
there live?
Was there that kind of thinking?
Definitely there was, I shouldhave been there live.
And if I organized my lifebetter, I could have been there
live because I would have no wayof like ascertaining and seeing
people's reaction to what I did.
(20:41):
And then, you know, because I'dseen the presentation after the
fact, there's that secondguessing that comes from like
finding every fault that I couldwith that content.
Yeah.
What else came up for me aroundthat?
Well, I don't value them thesame.
(21:02):
I think an in-personpresentation is more valuable
than what I did.
I see.
UNKNOWN (21:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
in-person presentation is more valuable.
Okay.
And why is that?
Because in my mind, it takesmore skill to be in the moment
of presenting live andfacilitating learning live than
it is to pre-record somethingwhere you can just record it and
record it and record it untilit's perfect.
(21:31):
And there's not engagement withyour audience in that case,
right?
It's basically a lecture versusan engaging sort of learning
opportunity or discussion.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm going to come back to these.
These are jam-packed withgoodness, I will say, or
richness.
Tell me a bit about thedoubtfulness, where you're
(22:01):
feeling doubtful about thepositive comments and feedback
from the audience.
You're doubtful because...
Or if the audience said goodthings about what you
contributed, you doubt it,because why?
That's a really good question.
And I don't think about that onetoo often.
(22:21):
I just doubt because I doubt.
I have a distrust when peoplesay nice things about the work
that I do because I feel thatthey're just trying to be fair
or nice or polite.
I take it more as people arebeing polite when they're being
nice and they're being truthfulwhen they're being critical.
So I don't put as much value oncompliments.
(22:44):
Okay.
So I don't trust complimentsbecause I assume people are
being...
polite but you also saidsomething about criticisms i
might have missed it what wasthat last part you said i take
criticism as the honest truththat people when they're
critical of you they're tellingyou the actual truth about what
they think oh okay okay so youtake criticism as honesty but in
(23:13):
your mind there isn't reallyroom for positive feedback as
honesty yeah Okay, okay.
Here are the automatic thoughtswe've got so far.
I'm not as competent as mycolleague and everyone can see
that.
I should speak up about mycontribution and I shouldn't
praise myself too much.
If I organized my life better, Icould have been present live and
(23:37):
heard the comments firsthand.
An in-person presentation ismore valuable than what I did
because it takes more skill topresent in real time.
And the last automatic thoughtyou have is, I don't trust
compliments because I assumepeople are being polite.
I take criticism as honesty.
So let's go back to some ofthese.
(23:59):
Where you say, I'm not ascompetent as my colleague, and
everyone can see that.
In what way are you less skilledthan your colleague, do you
think?
Okay.
(24:20):
I'll be honest with you.
What was he good at?
Yeah.
So my colleague is not a druguser.
So they work in the same fieldthat I do, but they're not a
drug user and I am.
So I tend to have a higherregard for people who are doing
that work from a place ofsobriety or whatever you want to
call it than I do.
(24:42):
My work is informed by livedexperience.
I don't have any academicbackground in the work that I'm
doing.
And also, if I'm hearing thisright, Jordan, sorry, you feel
like, I just want to clarify,you're saying here that you
(25:07):
would be less competent thansomebody who has an academic
background because livedexperience isn't worth as much
or is not valued as much?
Yeah, that's basically what I'msaying.
I know it would intellectuallybe wrong or not perhaps the most
correct way of thinking, but Istill feel and think that way.
(25:28):
It's a very deeply held beliefthat my drug use really isn't
credible.
It isn't worth much.
Okay.
I'm just going to write thisdown.
So my lived experience isn't asvaluable as the colleague who
doesn't have lived experience ofdrug use.
(25:52):
Now, tell me a bit more.
Who has told you that?
Or why do you think that?
I'm not going to disagree withit.
I'm just trying to figure outwhere it came from.
Because maybe he does knowsomething that you don't know.
I'm just trying to figure outwhat that thing is.
(26:13):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't really thinkthere is something he doesn't
know that I don't know.
But I guess that's one.
Knowing that and embodying thatare two different things.
Where does that come from forme?
I guess it's because throughmost of my, I don't know how far
(26:33):
I want to go into this, but thatthought has been present with me
for a long time.
Back when we used to be insobriety and in 12-step sort of
recovery, a thing that I sort ofgot the idea of was that my drug
use tainted everything that Idid.
It was a lot upon like everygood that I did in the world was
diminished by that use.
And so I've sort of gotten tothis place where I believe that
(26:56):
lived experience isn't really,for me, lived experience isn't
valuable.
I also over academics because Igrew up in a household where
academic accomplishment was theonly way I got validation.
And it was the only sort of,yeah.
Okay.
(27:16):
So we've got a couple ofthoughts here that clearly are
not like, necessarily consciousthoughts but they're they're
flowing under the river they'revery much like the undercurrent
here right um so i'm just goingto type this out one thing that
you're saying is everything thati do okay sorry my lived
(27:38):
experience isn't as valuable asthe colleague who doesn't have
lived experience of drug useacademic knowledge is more
valuable and usually gets morevalidation and that is your
experience um and everything yousaid this thing that you know
(28:01):
you've thought for a whileeverything that i do is tainted
by my drug use in some way howin what way wow i don't know if
i can break down exactly what ithink it's okay but i just feel
it's more like a it's tainted byit and i don't really want to
like break it down because Iknow that it doesn't have a lot
(28:22):
of legs to stand on.
Okay, okay, no problem.
How about we try this?
Jordan, what if someone else'sacademic knowledge is more
celebrated than the knowledgethat you bring?
What if that's true?
What's the long-term consequenceof that?
(28:43):
What does that mean for youprofessionally or personally?
Um...
Okay.
I want to make sure I understandthe question just so I'm clear.
So if that's true, like thisperson's academic knowledge is
more valued than what I'mbringing to the table, what does
that mean in the background forme and my life?
(29:04):
What does it say?
Yeah.
What is the consequence of thatfor you personally or
professionally?
I mean, personally, I reallydon't know if I can, Figure out
what that would mean for mepersonally.
Professionally, it might meanlike a lack of opportunity or
like not being able to access ordo the work that I want to do.
Okay.
(29:25):
Right?
So it's kind of like I'll neverexperience like upward mobility
in my work life or in my career?
Right.
Those folks who have theacademic experience and
background will get ahead.
I won't.
that i'll just sort of besitting here the token kind of
(29:46):
guy who uses drugs and onlycontributing up to a certain
extent and that work only beingexpected up to a certain extent
um okay um personally um i thinki can't necessarily get to the
(30:06):
thought i can get to the feelingi think personally it would mean
that i would feel very very Iwould feel less than I would
feel like I'd failed because forme, academics also represents a
thing that I've neveraccomplished in my life.
So I've never finisheduniversity, et cetera.
And so I, we remind me again oflike past failure and sort of
bring me back to that place of.
(30:30):
Yeah.
So we were moving from almost athought to a belief that I'm a
failure or not.
having academic legitimacy orcredentials.
(30:54):
Now, I think actually I'm goingto read these out to you and
just like see how they feel.
We started with I'm not ascompetent as my colleague and
everyone can see that.
And so then I said, okay, inwhat way or why is that?
(31:15):
And you said, well, your livedexperience isn't as valuable as
the colleague who is an academicessentially and doesn't have
lived experience.
And then you said, well, whywould that be?
Academic knowledge is morevaluable and usually gets more
validation.
So far, these are like, some ofthese are almost, factual from
(31:39):
your perspective.
I'm not saying they are facts,but I think from your
perspective, you've come to seethem as pretty factual.
Yeah.
And then we get into likeanother factual thing that
you're saying here is likeeverything that I do is tainted
by my drug use in some way.
So I think you really came tobelieve that.
And maybe that was true.
I don't know.
But then the last two bulletswe've got here are actually
(32:04):
about the consequences of thosefacts.
So if that fact is true, or ifthis thing is true, then this is
what it says about me or mylife.
So it says that I'm a failurefor not having academic
legitimacy or credentials, orI'll never experience upward
mobility as a person who is thetoken with lived experience.
(32:25):
So these two are kind of,they're really catching my eye
at the moment.
And we'll come back to those.
I wanna go down to this thoughtyou had where you said, if I
organize my life better, I couldhave been present live and heard
the comments firsthand.
(32:45):
Now, I don't know if you neededto hear the comments firsthand
or if you needed to be live, butyou've put some value to being
able to do something like thatlive.
And you've also said that anin-person presentation is more
(33:05):
valuable, right?
Because it requires thisthinking on the spot skill.
Now, tell me a bit about, like,what do you mean by if I
organize my life better?
Do you struggle withorganization?
Is that a theme in your life?
Yeah, currently it's been atheme for the past couple of
years.
And in terms of schedulingthings, double booking things is
(33:28):
quite common for me, you know,like not organizing my day
correctly and being late forthings is a new thing, but still
a common occurrence.
And I can't remember what it wasabout this presentation, but I
think I had double booked.
I said I could do it.
And then it turns out I was busythat day and I couldn't break
out of the previous commitmentto go be there.
(33:48):
Okay.
Yeah.
Is organizing your work life astruggle or is it also in your
personal life?
All of my life.
Okay.
Okay.
And is this, like, is this aboutlike a hint of like ADHD that's
operating?
(34:09):
Is it part of the drug use?
Is it a sleep, like issues withsleep?
Like what, what do you, what isit connected to, do you think?
So I don't know about the ADHDthing.
I once was going to investigatethat and never followed through.
So to me, the belief is thatit's due to my drug use.
And mostly the issues I havewith sleep and cognitive ability
(34:31):
and memory and whatnot.
Okay.
So it's interesting, like thepresentation is about drug use
and how it operates inparticular communities.
And it's the very thing that ina way you struggle with.
That's like one of the sideeffects, right?
Or the unintended consequences.
(34:57):
Now, is there a thought herewhere you're judging yourself in
that moment?
So you're saying to yourself, Iwish I could have made it in
person.
I couldn't.
Let's say it's because of mydrug use.
Is there a thought there aboutyou as a drug user?
Oh, yes.
I mean, there's bad thoughts.
(35:17):
What is that thought exactly?
Like if I didn't use drugs,blah, blah, blah, or.
Use drugs, my life would bebetter.
This wouldn't be happening.
And that I would be morecompetent, more able to do the
things that I value doing.
Right.
There's also a thought around.
Sorry, go ahead.
(35:38):
So is that, I just want to makesure that is a, that is an
actual thought you have.
Like if you weren't using drugs,things in your life would be
better.
Yep, it's an actual thought.
Okay, I just want to Okay.
I sorry, you were gonna saysomething else.
Did you want to add something tothat?
Um, gosh, no, I can't remember.
(36:01):
I lost my train of thought onthat one.
It'll come back to me, though.
Okay.
And when you say things in yourlife would be better.
What are you talking about here?
Is it like, Likeorganizationally, you think you
would be just a bit morestructured or what?
(36:24):
I think I would be betterorganized.
I would be more present.
I wouldn't make so many smallmistakes like with scheduling
with, yeah.
Okay.
More present, fewer errors,better scheduled.
Okay.
I hear that.
I hear that.
Okay.
There's also another piece ofthis very full statement where
(36:48):
you're talking about why anin-person presentation is more
valuable and that it relies oncertain skills.
Do you think you don't havethose skills or do you feel sad
that you missed an opportunityto showcase those skills?
So it's mostly the second one,but there's a belief that I'm
(37:11):
losing those skills to do to mydrug use.
And this was an opportunity toshowcase them, and now I can't.
OK, so I missed an opportunityto showcase my skills.
And I'm just going to put asemicolon there because
connected to it is this worrythat I'm losing my skills due to
(37:35):
drug use.
Thinking going on in my head.
Well, it's a difficult headspaceto be in, right?
Because you are supportingpeople and trying to combat and
resist stigma that comes withdrug use.
And it's an isolating place whenthen you as the non-activist,
(37:57):
but the person that's just youin your home, for example,
you're thinking, okay, Like, Iwish there wasn't so much stigma
about drug use.
I wish people didn't dehumanizedrug users.
But also, I do wonder what mylife would look like if this had
a smaller role in my life, or,you know, it seems like there's
(38:18):
not necessarily a space for youto process.
Just the like, the impact ofdrug use, while also being kind
to yourself while also doing thework that you do, like the work
that you do positions you almostto be in defense of, and then
(38:42):
your personal experiencepositions you to be in this
headspace around behaviorchange.
And I imagine that's verychallenging.
Do you want to speak to thatjust a little bit?
Yeah, no, you're right.
It is very challenging and it'sa struggle for the past couple
of years, especially doing thevery public work that I'm doing
now, where I'm speaking outabout it a lot more.
I almost feel like I have to belike present in person as a
(39:05):
strong and like capable personwho does have control over the
drug use.
And so the conflict comes when Ilook at my own life and I say,
well, that's not how it actuallyis.
And it doesn't feel like I havea lot of avenues to like talk
about that other than when I'mworking with my therapist and
that's like, twice a month.
A lot of time it can be reallydraining and I can sort of feel
(39:27):
like a hypocrite or I think thatI'm a hypocrite a lot of the
time because of this sort ofcontrast.
I still haven't figured out howto be kind to myself in all of
this.
I hold myself to a higherstandard than I would anybody
else.
Like there's a different set ofrules for me than there are for
other folks who are goingthrough the same issue.
I believe that.
I believe that that is how youoperate.
(39:50):
Look, what I've written downhere as another thought is, and
let me know if it's correct.
I have to present.
I'm going to use the word showup.
I think it's a bit more clear.
I have to show up as someone whois confident and managing my
drug use well, even thoughsometimes I struggle.
All right.
(40:14):
Now, If you constantly, likethere's this pressure around you
have to show up a particularway, what happens if you don't?
What's the consequence?
Like people are, I think youalluded to this, people will
think you're a fraud or you'rean imposter or something like
(40:34):
that.
Impostor is definitely part ofit.
I think there's a belief thatpeople will see me for who I
actually think I am, which islike a hot mess.
You know, I'm afraid that peoplewill like see through that and
that they'll see that I reallydon't have it all together.
And then they will use it asfurther evidence that what I'm
trying to do is like, like thatthe stigma is really there for a
(40:59):
reason, because really allpeople who use drugs are just
messy, incompetent, lazy,stupid, all those things.
Okay.
So what I'm writing here is, Ijust wanna make sure I'm
(41:22):
capturing it.
If I don't show up as quoteunquote put together, people
will use it against me and inopposition to my anti-stigma
work.
Is that right?
Did I capture that okay?
Yeah.
I think you hit the nail on thehead with that.
Okay.
Cause when I read it, it feels abit confusing, but I think I've
(41:42):
got it.
Yeah.
Like if I show up as thestereotype, then people are
going to be like, he's a joke.
What is he talking about?
You know, like why is headvocating for the people who
are drug users when he can'teven, you know, pull himself
together to like do this work.
Yes.
Okay.
UNKNOWN (42:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
usually against me.
And I'm just going to make itless confusing against my
anti-stigma work.
Okay.
So look, so far, I'm just goingto highlight a couple of
thoughts that I think arereally, they're really jumping
out at me.
Actually, no, I'm not going todo that.
That's not my job.
Hold on.
I'm going to ask you to do that.
(42:23):
So what I want you to do here isthink about which of the
thoughts, and it's likely goingto be the thoughts that are like
the consequence ones, the lessof the ones that seem like facts
to you, but more of theconsequence ones, which of them
do you think are most salientand driving a lot of your
(42:46):
negative feelings, right?
So the competitiveness, feelinginferior, feeling jealous,
discouraged, doubtful, etcetera, right?
So I'm going to read them outloud once more.
That's primarily for theaudience.
But you can kind of meditate onit and say, yeah, this is the
one.
This is the most salient, themost prominent one.
(43:10):
So I'm a failure for not havingacademic legitimacy or
credentials.
I'll never experience upwardmobility as a person who is the
token, who is always the tokenwith lived experience.
Okay.
And then we've got, if I didn'tuse drugs, things in my life
(43:33):
would be better, more present,fewer errors, better scheduled.
I missed an opportunity toshowcase my skills and I'm
losing skills due to drug use.
I have to show up as someone whois confident in managing my drug
use well, even though sometimesI struggle.
If I don't show up as puttogether, people will use that
against me and my anti-stigmawork.
(43:56):
Which of these do you think isreally standing out to you as
prominent, salient, driving thedifficult feelings?
I would say that there's acouple of them, but the one that
jumped out the most is if Ididn't use drugs, things in my
life would be better as thedriving, right?
Okay.
(44:16):
What's the other one?
Just out of curiosity.
It's a tough call because theone about the upward mobility
kind of jumped out at me.
I was surprised by that.
Because the academic one is anolder thought, and I've always
had that thought.
It's been there before thissituation.
But the one about uppermobility, I don't believe I'll
go anywhere in life, right?
(44:37):
Okay.
And that I'll be left behindalmost.
And it's a big one that wasdriving that competitive feeling
with my colleague.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you know what?
Let's add that as anotherthought.
Because that's truly aconsequence.
I'll be left behind.
(44:58):
And I'm happy to put that inbold as well, because I think it
is related to the otherthoughts.
So I'll just read it out again.
The one you first selected was,if I didn't use drugs, things in
my life would be better, morepresent, fewer errors, better
scheduled.
And there's a worry that I'll beleft behind.
(45:18):
Now we're going to go to thenext column.
And this is the column where weare coming up with evidence from
your life that supports the hotthought.
The hot thought is the prominentthoughts that we've put in bold.
And so just for aestheticpurposes, I'm going to bring
(45:41):
this up here so we can see bothof them together.
Jordan, tell me about evidencein your life, things that have
happened where you'veexperienced being left behind
where, you know, you've come torealize or you've appreciated in
(46:04):
moments that not using drugs hasbeen better for your life.
Where do these thoughts comefrom?
Can we start with the secondone?
Just because that one's easier.
So I know that when I hadsobriety in my life, which I had
a number of years of sobriety,that my cognitive function
didn't improve.
I didn't experience the amountof everyday challenge with
(46:26):
everyday living, like making itto appointments or not double
booking things, I was able toshow up more.
It was pretty clear to me.
Okay.
So...
I'm glad we put two things inbold because what you're telling
(46:51):
me is that if I didn't usedrugs, some things in your life
would be better.
And that also is, it seems likeit's factual based on like your
experience, but you also havethis belief that you'll be left
behind.
(47:11):
Is there evidence of that inyour life?
Are you feeling stagnant or leftbehind?
I think, again, it's only when Ican look at other people in
their lives that I ever feelthat I'd be left behind because
I feel other people have gone onto accomplish a lot more at
similar ages than I have.
I've always felt left behindbecause I never finished
university when most of my peersdid.
(47:32):
Yeah, I've always felt like I'vejust been lagging behind in
terms of maturity, in terms ofaccomplishment.
And I know that these things arearbitrary and like socially
constructed a lot of the timeand not necessarily things I
need to hang my self-esteem orself-worth on, but I do.
Yeah.
(47:53):
Yeah.
Okay.
We're going to come back tothat.
I've got some stuff to say thatwe're going to stick to this
process.
So you've, you've said yourother people my age have done
more or have accomplished more.
I've always felt like I'mlagging behind.
I didn't, Finish university.
(48:13):
Okay.
So in these certain ways, youhave been left behind, so to
speak.
Now, is there evidence in yourlife that doesn't support this
idea that drug use...
(48:35):
alone is what would make, likelimiting drug use alone is what
would make your life better orthat you are not left behind?
Evidence that doesn't supportthat.
I mean, certainly like there wasalso difficulty in my life when
I wasn't using drugs and I can'tsay that using, not using drugs
(48:57):
would make my life better in allways.
I guess it doesn't support thatthought.
So there were still difficultiesin my life when I wasn't using
drugs.
So that's important to know.
It's not just like one thing.
Another alternative thoughthere, I mean, I would suggest
(49:21):
is, sorry, not alternativethought.
Another piece of evidence hereis that I was on a panel.
I'm on many panels with peoplewho have formal education.
and people like what I have tosay.
I'm just gonna put that in asevidence.
(49:42):
I've been on panels with equalfooting as others.
And those people are sometimesacademics.
Are there other ways where youhaven't been left behind?
(50:05):
you know, I think my entirecurrent, like, I think currently
I don't feel like I feel leftbehind in my current work that
I'm doing.
I feel like I've like, I feellike I'm on the cusp of
something.
I feel like I'm on the edge ofsomething.
I'm doing really interestingwork at a really interesting
time.
Um, I feel like I'm in themoment almost, um, which is odd
(50:26):
to say I felt I'm worried aboutbeing left behind when I feel
very much in the momentcurrently.
Um, Yeah.
Also, I've accomplished, despiteall those challenges, I've
accomplished quite a bit interms of like, for somebody
who's using drugs and hasproblems with them sometimes,
I'm actually accomplishing quitea bit.
(50:48):
Give me an example, because Iknow you have accomplished a
lot.
I just want to name it.
Gosh.
What do I want to start with?
I'll start with the fact that Icreated the first gay men's
drop-in for guys who party andplay in Toronto and Ontario.
ever, which was kind of cool.
(51:08):
And, you know, what's been doingwith the GMSH, the survey that
we did, the campaign that I'vebeen working on in collaboration
with everybody here, like that'sa big piece.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
Great.
Okay.
(51:30):
So your automatic negativethought, is that if I didn't use
drugs, things in my life wouldbe better.
More present, fewer errors,better scheduled.
But it's tied to a larger fearthat you'll be left behind.
And I think that's what we'rereally focusing on here, it
(51:51):
seems.
When you look at the evidencethat supports the idea that
you've already been left behind,or if you continue this way, you
will be left behind, evidencethat does not support that idea.
What are some things you mightsay to yourself that are
actually helpful and counterthis idea that I'll be left
(52:13):
behind?
Okay.
This is the one I alwaysstruggle with when I did CBT, is
the alternative thoughts.
It is hard.
But let me ask you something.
Do you want to be an academic?
(52:34):
Do you want to go back and getthose credentials?
Yes and no.
Yes, I do.
I do.
I do.
Let's not unpack that one anyfurther because there's a lot of
fear there.
But I do want to go back and getthose credentials.
And my life is not over yet.
I could still pursue thosethings if I so choose.
(53:02):
I value other people's livedexperience as being of equal
value to academic expertise.
Like I really do.
So I don't accept in courtesy tomyself.
So I think that's an importantalternative thought to have is
like, I value other people'slived experience.
Why can't I do, not why can't Ido that for myself?
I can do that for myself aswell.
(53:22):
Okay.
So I value other people's oops.
lived experience.
Oh my gosh, I'm a typingnightmare here.
This happens around the thishappens toward the end, I start
to start to lose my touch.
(53:46):
Okay, so read those twoalternative thoughts to me and
just let's see how they feel foryou.
I can go back and get academiccredentials if they choose what
I have to offer is alsovaluable.
I value other people's livedexperience and I should value my
own as well.
That one, I think most resonancefor me.
(54:07):
And I feel like, yeah, I believethat because it reminds me.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think you might need morealternative thoughts because
Jordan, we're living in a worldwhere I think you're right.
Some things are going to be by adominant culture valued more.
(54:30):
Right.
And so I think we need analternative thought here about
perhaps you carving out your ownpath and you being the source of
your own legitimacy.
I don't quite know how to phraseit.
What do you think?
I think that's a really goodpoint.
I also don't know how to phrasethat, but you know, one thing
(54:56):
that I, sometimes try and remindmyself of that could be an
alternative thought is that noone is doing what you're doing.
No one's been doing what you'vebeen doing.
So there is no, there's nostandard, I guess I can compare
myself to.
There's no standard.
Yes.
(55:17):
And I think I want to get alllike critical theory here is
like, I often think about like,well, why, Do we value academic
contributions?
Where is that coming from?
Is it a societal thing?
What's that informed by?
And then I can kind of like lookat it and say, well, this is
like Western sort of systems ofknowledge and the patriarchy and
(55:38):
all that jazz and colonialism.
That's what makes academiclearning so valued.
It comes from a reallyproblematic place.
So why am I ascribing myself tothat set of values when I don't
value those things?
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (55:51):
It's a little bit complicated, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:54):
So I'm going to write here, I don't necessarily
value.
Actually, I'm going to pausehere for a second because part
of you does want to get academiccredentials.
Like there's a longing for that.
So there's a tension there, youknow?
(56:14):
So I'm not going to say that youdon't value where it comes from.
How about, I think what might bemore accurate is, Just as I'm
critical of contributions thatare rooted in lived experience,
(56:43):
I'm also critical of academiccontributions.
Right.
And that works really well,actually.
Yeah, so both types ofcontributions can be judged or
criticized, right?
Now, the sentiment here, itmakes me think about what it
(57:10):
means to be left behind.
And you talked about comparingyourself to people in your age
group or your peers.
Is there an alternative thoughthere about who you should
compare yourself to, or is therereally no one you can compare
(57:31):
yourself to?
I don't really feel like there'sa lot of value in comparing
myself.
I feel it's a really destructivekind of thing in my life.
Sorry, my alarm's going off onmy phone.
I feel like it's not been a veryproductive way of sort of
evaluating my contributions orwhat I'm doing, because it's
always in comparison to otherpeople.
(57:52):
I know we're social creaturesand all that jazz, but I don't
think I should be comparingmyself to people who are
necessarily my peers.
A, I have no idea about theirlife experience and what led
them to accomplish all thosethings at that certain time or
age.
And it also really diminishesthe role that like, Like my past
has had in shaping my present,like trauma, like the life I had
(58:16):
growing up as a kid and all ofthat sort of journey gets
diminished because doing anapples for apples comparison
about like age or, you know, whowent to school and finished
school.
There's a lot of other thingsthat happened in my life that
created this sort of trajectoryI've been on.
So it's not a thing to compare.
UNKNOWN (58:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (58:34):
One other thing I want to tackle in the
alternative thoughts is thisidea that things would be better
if you didn't use drugs.
But if you didn't currently usedrugs, what would be what would
be missing in your life or whatwould you lose?
What would you not be able todo?
I think that like I think aboutthis a lot.
(58:58):
I think some of what I wouldlose is, you know, a connection
to the community that right nowI'm really relying on to like do
the work that I'm doing.
But I think I would lose, Iwould lose, I would lose a lot
of connection with people rightnow because drug use represents
connection for me.
I don't know if that's where youwere going or you're trying to
(59:20):
tie it more.
Yeah.
No, no, no, no.
That's perfect.
So drug use representsconnection for me.
And, I guess you're saying I'dlike to maintain that connection
at the moment.
Yeah, I would.
Yeah.
(59:42):
It's not that that can neverchange or that there aren't
other forms of connection outthere, but you're talking about
just the value, right, of theseconnections.
And I think that's important.
And I think that's somethingthat I know a lot of other
people don't get.
Right.
But I think we get that.
I mean, you get that more than Ido, but I get that from working
(01:00:03):
in the field.
You get that from livedexperience.
And here we are.
So, Jordan, I'm going to ask youto read all of the alternative
thoughts out loud.
And I want you to see how theyfeel for you.
And by the end of it, I want youto pick one that you think you
believe the most, you like themost, you think that is the most
helpful.
UNKNOWN (01:00:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:25):
All right, so I can go back and get academic
credentials if I choose.
What I have to offer is alsovaluable.
I value other people's livedexperience and I should value my
own as well.
No one is doing what I'm doing,so there is no way to compare
myself in an objective way.
And just as I'm critical ofcontributions that are rooted in
lived experience, I'm alsocritical of academic
(01:00:45):
contributions.
Drug use represents connectionfor me and I'd like to maintain
that connection right now.
there one no that was it yeahwell that's good that makes
that's good all right which onedo you believe the most which
one fits most for you when youthink about the original
situation you know you'retalking to your colleague and
(01:01:08):
you feel like you're being leftbehind and you're being critical
of your own drug use i am goingto say that it is number two
that has the most like It feelsthe most believable.
It feels like something that I'mwilling to believe.
Yeah.
And you know, when people dothings like affirmations, one
(01:01:30):
thing that I worry about is thatit's not always a statement that
they believe strongly.
And so for you, I like thatyou're saying this is something
I believe in.
So I value other people's livedexperience and I should value my
own as well.
And when you say that toyourself and you believe it, how
do you then rate youraffirmations?
(01:01:51):
Feeling of competitiveness.
Okay, how do I read it?
I would say it's like maybe at atwo.
Okay.
Like I'm not very competitive atall.
Feeling minimized.
I would say maybe like at athree or a two.
Let's go with three.
(01:02:12):
Okay.
Inconsequential.
Three.
Jealous.
Two.
Okay.
And just so you know, it's okayif some of these remain high.
I'm not...
But if it's going down, that'salso great.
Okay.
How about your sense of shame orinferiority?
(01:02:34):
I'd say about a four.
That's a constant one for me.
It's...
That's okay.
Yep.
Injustice?
Two.
Angry?
One.
Admiration?
Let's go with a four for that.
(01:02:55):
Yeah.
Sadness.
One.
Grief.
One.
Discouraged.
Probably a four.
Celebratory.
I'd say about a six.
(01:03:18):
And doubtful.
I'd say about a five.
Okay.
Jordan, do any new feelings comeup for you when you're having
this discussion?
We're talking about, you know,your boss is there.
You're talking about, you know,the positive feedback you both
received.
Even though you weren't there,you're telling yourself, you
(01:03:40):
know, Because part of where youweren't there maybe had to do
with organization and that maybewas related to drug use.
But you're saying to yourself,this is how I show up in the
world and I value other people'slived experience and I should
value my own as well, right?
What else are you feeling inthis moment?
Are there other feelings?
(01:04:01):
Like what's showing up for meright now in this moment is like
a sense of like, there's also asense of like self-compassion, I
guess, or self-love.
Self-love.
But like a little bit of likethat compassionate feeling,
which is nice.
And yeah, there's definitely asense of content.
Yeah.
Content.
And I think pride seems like abig one, like pride.
(01:04:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
What about achievement?
Achievement.
Yeah.
I would say that's there.
as well.
I think that's maybe more what Imeant by pride than pride
itself.
I think achievement is moresalient.
That's okay.
I love all the feeling words.
(01:04:48):
Do you feel a sense of team orcamaraderie that comes up?
Definitely.
I'm just thinking about what'sdifferent than competition,
yeah?
Yeah, a sense of collaboration,a sense of team spirit.
Team spirit.
Team spirit.
(01:05:12):
And team spirit really, youknow, is like the feeling is
often belonging.
So I'll just put that in there.
So Jordan, this has taken us tothe end of the thought record,
right?
And I'm curious to know, like alot of people do this and their
mood ratings or their Thepresent feeling ratings don't
(01:05:36):
necessarily go down a lot.
Yours happen to.
Tell me a bit about what thisprocess has been like for you or
any reflections on what youmight have learned.
Well, I've learned that I havean awful lot of thinking going
on in my head when I'm in thesesituations.
It's a good reminder, though,that there are so many different
layers and types of thoughts.
(01:05:59):
My feelings went down because,A, I've got the benefit of
looking at it from a greatdistance where I'm not as in
touch with those immediatefeelings.
So it's easier for me to say,well, they're downplayed or
they've lowered.
But I also think that what thisexperience did was reminded me a
lot of the idea that most of thefacts that I'm basing my
(01:06:20):
thoughts off of are not corrector not accurate.
And so the feelings don't feelas...
I'm not as connected to thosefeelings because I realize
there's a bit of a fallacy or abit of a false belief underneath
a lot of them.
The thing about valuing otherpeople's lived experience is why
(01:06:41):
do I extend that to otherpeople?
And yet I'm making an exceptionfor myself to get worse.
It's like, well, okay, I getwhere that comes from.
And like, no, I really shouldvalue my own work.
And like, why would Iparticipate in a system of
oppression and myself?
Like, you know, yeah.
Lives matter.
Their, their experiences matter.
They're not the only experience,but like there's the equal space
(01:07:04):
at the table.
So absolutely.
And, you know, okay.
So I really enjoyed doing thiswith you because it gave me a
sense of all the variety ofthings that you're thinking
about and, in this moment that'sso deeply personal, but it's
also about your work.
It's about your family history.
It's about who you arepolitically, right?
(01:07:27):
There's a number of things thatare coming together here.
And I think one thing, you know,that stood out to me was you are
you're really trying to carveyour own path.
It seems to me like you're liketrailblazing in a way.
(01:07:49):
And so if you were to say, I'vebeen left behind, you know, more
accurately, there's things thatI've not, I've chosen not to
participate in, or I haven'tbeen able to cause they weren't
created for minds like me, youknow, or for, or for spirits
(01:08:10):
like me.
Um, Because in a sense, like,sure, you know, if you said, I
want to be an academic and now Iwant to go back to school.
Yeah, that it's factual thatthat might be harder for you now
than it was at a different time,perhaps.
(01:08:32):
Right.
But I don't think that's.
misses the point and the pointhere is that you're doing things
you're trying to do it in adifferent way in accordance with
some of your values right um ithink one of the things that
really stood out for me also wasthe predicament you're in as
somebody who's an active druguser and you're politically in
(01:08:55):
defense of preserving thehumanity of people who are drug
users, but you are also at timesfalling apart on the inside, or
it seems that way.
And I think we have to come upwith a statement, or you might
think about coming up with astatement that holds multiple
truths, where like, I could makechanges to my drug use if I
(01:09:20):
really need to, and that doesn'tmake me a less valuable
advocate, Or I can at times fallapart in front of people and
that doesn't make my messageless valuable.
You know, like I'm thinkingabout pairing two different
statements with an and thatallows multiple truths to exist.
And I think that's veryimportant.
(01:09:41):
You're smiling.
What are you thinking?
That second one that you said, Iwas like, oh, I don't like that
one.
Oh, which one?
The one about I can fall apartand it doesn't make my message
any less valuable.
I was like, oh, that challengesme so much.
But the useful one or somethinglike that is useful for me
because I struggle the most withthat, which is when I'm not all
(01:10:04):
together, which is some of thetime.
I abandon myself quite a lot inthose moments and I just berate
myself.
And so I would rather have astatement that reminds me that
like, I can be a mess.
Everybody's a mess sometimes,right?
I don't see other people'smesses maybe in the same way I
see mine.
Yeah.
Or experiencing the same way,but everybody falls apart.
And yeah, it doesn't.
(01:10:29):
And, and, you know, the, thephrase I like for that, that I
often draw on is I can't compareother people's outsides to my
insides.
You know, do that though.
I'm like, Oh, you know, so.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (01:10:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:45):
Jordan, before we end today, is there anything
else you want to say or share orreflect on, or even ask about
CBT, this process before we wrapup?
So doing this on my own hasalways been a struggle or
challenge for me.
Like it's really great that Ican bounce this off of you.
(01:11:05):
And it's also, eminentlyimpractical to do this on a
daily basis with every singlethought that's coming into my
head.
I'm working on this on my own tomake it a more engaging
experience or to like make it amore useful experience or one
that I'll pick up from time totime again.
Right.
You know, I would suggest thatyou think like the situation
that's difficult, as soon asit's passed, like it's in the
(01:11:29):
recent past, I would think aboutjust two or three feelings that
were coming up.
Maybe what the thoughts arerelated to those.
And when you identify thethoughts, the key question to
ask yourself is, what does thissay about me or my life?
Or what is the consequence ofthis if it's true?
(01:11:52):
And then right away, come upwith an alternative.
UNKNOWN (01:11:57):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:11:57):
Because when we ask the question, what does this say
about me if this is true?
What is the consequence of thisto my life?
That is the belief that isunderneath that thought that is
kind of factual to you.
And that's what we want toshift, the belief.
Right.
Okay.
(01:12:18):
That seems accessible.
Those questions about the thingsabout my life were the powerful
ones for me in this experienceas well.
When you asked those questions,I was like, oh, huh.
Yeah.
And I think it's also importantwhen we come up with alternative
thoughts to be realistic, right?
Like an alternative thoughtcould have also been, if I
(01:12:39):
didn't use drugs, I'd be able toschedule better, but I'd be a
lot more lonelier.
That's like, that could be analternative thought, you know,
if it's helpful and you believein it.
All right.
Jordan, thank you so much forbeing a guest on the CBT Dive.
And thank you for doing theimportant work that you do.
(01:13:00):
I hope you continue to findspaces where you can talk about
your own nuanced experiences asan activist, as a person with
lived experience, and a personwho's making important
contributions to gay men'shealth.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13:22):
Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to our YouTube channelat thecbtdive.ca.
You can also listen on the gowherever you get your podcasts.
To follow Rahim on social media,check out ladyativan.com.
See you soon.
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