E22 The aftermath of being ghosted

Episode Transcript
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UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into
the lives of real people withreal struggles.
Each episode welcomes a newguest who wants to explore a
challenging situation using themost common cognitive behavioral
therapy tool, the ThoughtRecord.
Your host, Rahim Thawar, is asocial worker and

(00:21):
psychotherapist based in Torontoand well-known for his work in
LGBTQ communities.
He's created the CBT Dive todemonstrate What therapy can
look like and share interventionskills for wellness.
We hope that each episode helpsyou along on your own journey
for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
welcome to another episode of the cbt dive today
i've got joash with me joash isa 42 year old sales professional
working in the global workforcemental health field he is based
in johannesburg south africa andregularly travels worldwide
working with businesses lookingto implement mental health care
programming joash navigates lifeas a single cisgender gay man, a

(01:13):
relatively new relationshipstatus after a 13-year committed
relationship.
But after three years of beingsingle, with a rather
adventurous dating lifestyle orlife, he feels like he is ready
for a serious commitment oncemore.
So we're joined by Joash today,who is going to explore the

(01:35):
experience of being ghosted.
Joash, how are you today?
I'm good, Rahim.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm good.
Now, from what I understand, youhave heard of CBT, but you've
never done a CBT exercise quitelike this.
Is that right?
Yes, that's right.

(01:56):
I've never been.
Well, I guess to some extent,but not in a comprehensive
manner that we're about to dothat today.
And how does it feel for youto...
talk about things that are sopersonal for the first time and

(02:17):
in this kind of way where you'regoing to examine your own
thoughts in a very vulnerableway.
What does that feel like foryou?
There's a level of anxiety, butI think what gives me...
courage to move through theanxiety is that I know that
there'll be people who will seethis and who'll be able to learn

(02:38):
from it and be able to takethings away that will help them.
And that makes me okay withthis.
And I think it's always good tobe vulnerable and I know I'm in
a safe space.
So yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
I appreciate that.
I'm going to go ahead and sharemy screen.

(03:00):
All right.
Can you see that thought recordup on the screen?
Yes.
Okay.
We both can.
That's always good.
Okay.
So Joash, what we're startingwith here is a situation that
brings up difficult feelings foryou.
Okay.
And that situation is thismoment.

(03:20):
And I know it's not just onemoment.
It probably happens over thecourse of a couple of hours
where you realize that you'vebeen ghosted because the texting
pattern with this person whowe're going to call Ellie has
changed and he stoppedresponding.
Is there anything else you wantto share about the particular
situation or the, or the momentswhen you realized you'd been

(03:43):
ghosted?
Yeah.
So let me give you some contextand some background to this.
So I had met Ellie on one of thedating apps and he wasn't
particularly my type.
And I, you know, having saidthat, I don't really have the
time, but I know when I'm notinto someone and it wasn't
particularly into him and he hadtexted me and also he was not

(04:07):
even on my grid.
So like he found me somehow, butanyway, you know, he was polite
and he was engaging and he wasentertaining.
So like, okay, there's nothingto lose.
So we chatted for a bit.
And then I think he suggested,you know, he'd like to meet.
So we did meet and he came overto my place.

(04:28):
And when he came over again,still physically, not really my
type, but intellectually, we hada really great time.
Like we connected on so manylevels.
He made me laugh in a way thatmany people don't generally do.
And And because I felt thisconnection and the strong
chemistry with him, on thatnight when we met, it also

(04:51):
became physical, which neitherof us were expecting and
anticipating on that night.
And in the run-up to that firstmeeting, there was very frequent
texting between the two of us.
And he was very responsive.
So if I texted, he'd replyfairly quickly.
If he replied, I'm alwaysusually responsive with my

(05:11):
messages.
So yeah, I would reply.
And so we had some great banterover text.
And then we scheduled a seconddate.
And in the run-up to the seconddate, I can see that the The
texting patterns had changed,but he did give some context to
why it had changed.
He said that he had a familyevent.

(05:32):
And so I took that at face valueand I was okay with that.
And then we met.
How that second dated was dinnerand a movie.
And throughout the dinner andmovie, it was pretty good.
But I could also sense duringdinner that something had
changed, shifted a little.

(05:53):
But I just thought that maybe Iwas reading into things a little
too much.
Because when we sat down at themovies, you know, we were
cuddling and kissing and all ofthose things.
Sorry, Joash.
Sorry, the movies was date two,is that right?
That's right.
Dinner and a movie was date two.

(06:15):
Okay, so the ghosting, so thetexting pattern changed between
date one and two or after datetwo?
That's right.
between date one and two, thepattern had already changed, but
he substantiated that withsaying that he had some family
stuff going on.
He had a family together at hisplace.

(06:37):
And so it made it legitimatethat there's going to be a
change and a slowdown because hehad stuff going on.
And he also had a friend who wasvisiting from another city, from
Cape Town, who was staying withhim for the weekend.
So It was all fairly legitimateand complete.
It made sense.
Yes.
And it made sense.

(06:57):
Yeah.
But on that second date with thedinner in the movie, I could
sense like he was very, he waseffusive with his attraction to
me.
He's like constantly told me howmuch he thought that I was, that
he found me attractive.
And that in the second date was,had also changed.

(07:20):
Like he stopped telling me thathe thought that I was so
attractive any longer.
And, but then that was duringdinner and at the movie, there
was the cuddling and the kissingand the making out at the movie.
So, so again, I thought, no,this is just in my head.
And he had picked me up from myplace for the second date.

(07:41):
And so he dropped me off.
And when he dropped me off, hedeclined to come in.
He just dropped me off at thegate and he declined to come in.
And again, I thought, okay,maybe the guy's just tired.
He's had a busy weekend andthat's okay.
And after that, then there wasfurther lulls in the texting

(08:06):
conversation.
And again, he gave reasons forthat.
He was busy with work.
And I think so that that dinnerand movie was either on a
Saturday or Sunday.
And I think the Monday andTuesday we texted and then by
the Wednesday or Thursday, therewas radio silence.

(08:31):
I texted and say, hey, how areyou?
Is everything okay?
And no response and no responseto this day.
And we're talking about fourmonths later.
And you know, I thought maybehe'd blocked me and he didn't
because I could still see hisprofile picture on his messaging

(08:52):
app.
My messages were beingdelivered.
So he did not block me, but itwas a pure situation.
It was a situation of just beingghosted.
And I think maybe about a monthlater, I had just sent him like
a forwarded message like youknow just a random meme or
something um and no responseeven to that and so yeah here we

(09:15):
are a good few months later andthat was the trajectory of that
now the thing that was sofrustrating is that i never even
found the guy physicallyattractive but i felt felt into
something with his personality.
And I thought like, oh my God,this guy is the kind of person

(09:36):
that while I don't find himphysically attractive, like
there's something here that Icould work with.
And so to be ghosted by someonethat I didn't even find
physically attractive was likehella infuriating.

UNKNOWN (09:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
but it was also the potential of what could have
been, because this is someonethat I've felt there could be
substance here.
And that physicality we all knowis fleeting because it's not
what you build a foundation on.
Sure.
Okay.
I'm going to pause you there.
That context was beautiful.

(10:14):
And as you began to talk aboutthe, the rationale for why
things were frustrating orinfuriating, what you see the
foundation of a relationshipbeing, those are all really
important things that we'regonna, I think we're gonna come
back to.
So the Wednesday after date twoand you discover the radio

(10:39):
silence, you felt frustrated,infuriated, what were the other
feelings you were experiencing?
So, yeah, frustrated,infuriated, angry with myself.
Angry with myself for fallingfor someone that was not.

(11:00):
And again, I keep saying thisphysical type thing because I
believe to an extent it isbullshit.
I think that we can build aconnection with anyone that we
have a cerebral connection with,regardless of the physicality.
My belief is that we'reconditioned into that.
having physical types.

(11:21):
And so I try as much as possibleto not veer towards this
physical type.
But having said that, he was notsomeone that I would typically
find myself dating physically.
And so I found myself beingangry that I started feeling
attraction to someone Igenerally would have walked

(11:42):
past.
Okay.
So when you allow yourself...
to do something you wouldn'tnormally do.
You're entering into a kind ofconnection, encounter,
relationship.
You're embarking on somethingthat you wouldn't normally do.
In a way, you're taking...
It's like a social risk.

(12:03):
And when you take a risk and youget a slap in the face, I'm
trying to figure out what thefeeling there would be.
Would it be like a kind ofembarrassment?
Or would it be...
Would it be a deeper sense ofrejection?
What are the feelings that comewith that?
So I get that you're a bit angrywith yourself, but then are you

(12:26):
embarrassed or exposed?
What are the other feelings?
Taken advantage of?
Yeah, possibly taken advantageof.
I wouldn't call it beingembarrassed though.
It was, I always say this tomyself, trust your instinct.

(12:47):
And I felt that in that momentin time, I didn't trust my
instinct.
I was taken with how I wasflattered by how much he found
me attractive in his words.
And, you know, that's, you know,it strokes your ego.
So it's almost like I was drivenby my ego in that moment.

(13:08):
And then my ego let me down ormy ego reminded me that I Ego
doesn't serve you.
Okay.
When your ego...
Sorry.
When your ego...
Okay, so instead of takingadvantage of, I just used the
word used.
It's a bit shorter, of course.

(13:29):
When you talk about...
the bruising of the ego.
I'm trying to figure out whatfeeling words could be attached
to that.
And again, my mind is going toembarrassed or, or discouraged,
but I'm not sure.
So help me out here.
When your ego was bruised, whatkinds of feelings were happening

(13:53):
for you?
Yeah.
I would say that it could befrustration, which I've said.

(14:13):
I'm hesitant to say embarrassed.
And the reason why is becauseI'm someone who doesn't
embarrass easily.
Or if I do get embarrassed, Irecover quite quickly from that.
I've considered myself over theyears to be resilient.
And so embarrassment is notsomething that exists within my

(14:35):
orbit, within my vocabulary.
Okay.
So I don't like myself.
Okay.
But Joash, it seems like you'retalking about how you protect
yourself against somethingthat...
you don't like to feel, or youlike to jump quickly to being

(14:58):
resilient, but there is a spacein between being ghosted and
bouncing back that we have toacknowledge.
So would you say that youexperienced embarrassment to a
small degree?
I would say it's despair.
Despair.
Okay.

(15:18):
Okay.
I'm going to leave embarrassedthere, but I recognize that
despair is one of the moreprominent words.
I also want to ask if there wassadness.
Sadness and despair.
Yeah.
To me, those go hand in hand.
Okay.
And would you say that you alsowere feeling like, did you feel

(15:46):
like, a solid sense ofrejection?
Because I know you talked about,oh, there's so many reasons why
maybe he didn't come in that dayor his texting pattern changed.
Did you personally feelrejected?
Like he doesn't like me?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Without a doubt.
Because if you think about it,if I have to think about it

(16:08):
rather, something had to havehappened, right?
Either it was a reaction tosomething I've said or a
reaction to who I am on any kindof level, whether it was he was
looking for this masculineAdonis and here I am with this

(16:29):
very femme personality andbeing.
And that was not aligned withwhat he wanted.
I don't know.
I still don't know what I wasrejected for.
And so it's the despair andsadness of the rejection.
And of course, the nature ofghosting is that you don't have

(16:52):
an opportunity to ask thequestion.
You don't have closure to it.
You're really just thrown in thegarbage bin.
Yes.
And so...
You know, I don't mind beingrejected because I know a huge
part of life is failure.
A huge part of life isrejection.

(17:14):
And you learn from that, right?
Because that's what failure doesis it sets you up for the next
activity and you learn fromthose mistakes.
But if you're not given anyfeedback, but if you're not
given any feedback and there'sno closure, no conversation,
it's not about improvement.
It's just about- the rejectionon its own.

(17:36):
So I want to go back to a momentago where you said the thoughts
that went through your mind wereabout like, am I too femme or do
I not meet his ideal?
I wonder if the feeling there isabout around inferiority or
inadequacy.
Do you think, did you feelinadequate a little bit?

(17:57):
Yeah.
I would say to an extent, to anextent inadequate, perhaps
inferior, but also where do Ifit in to this gay dating scene?

SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
But also

SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
where do I fit into his world?
So confused.
I don't know.
Yeah, and I didn't have thatopportunity to ask, especially
since, and you mentionedConfused, but that first date
was just electric on so manylevels.
The chemistry was there and thebanter was there and we clicked

(18:46):
on all of these differentlevels, physically, mentally,
socially, it was all justpopping, honey.
But fast forward to literally aweek later and you've fallen off
and you given no, no notion, noinsight into why that had

(19:07):
happened.
And so it was, it was confusion,but it left me one.
So the thing is, and I'mspeaking, you know, in terms of
my experience, I guess, becauseI'm at this phase of my life,
I'm confident enough to not beknocked down by someone else's
opinion of me.
Everyone's got an opinion.

(19:28):
I may not always agree with it.
I may not always like it, butyou're entitled to your, your
opinion.
And also I know that I'm nevergoing to be liked by everyone
and I'm completely okay withthat, but I know there are
people who truly love me andthat's something that gives me,
you know, it sustains me andgives me, um, happiness and joy

(19:53):
and all of those wonderfulthings that goes along with
being loved and accepted.
So being rejected by one personis not the be all and end all.
It's not rejected without.
Yeah.
But being rejected with norecourse is where it becomes
egregious on many levels.
Okay.

(20:13):
Okay.
So because you talk about love,the close people in your life
and their love being ofimportance to you.
And it seems like that's whatyou build your resilience
around.
On the Wednesday after date two,when you experience this like

(20:36):
radio silence, for a moment,were you feeling unworthy or
were you questioning your worthfor the moment?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Which is why the very firstthing I did was log back onto
the dating apps.
Because, you know...
Oh.
So you were feeling determinedand a bit vengeful as well.

(21:01):
Well, I wouldn't call itvengeful, but now that you're
saying it...
Yes.
Okay.
That's kind of true.
Because, you know, it's like...
You motherfucker.
I'm going to show you.
I can get dick if I want to.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
And so determined, vengeful.

(21:21):
Okay.
This is good.
This is good.
So look, I want you to take amoment.
It's hard because you're, you'requite a resilient person.
And you've got the story of,well articulated and laid out.
So this exercise is going todisrupt the story a little bit

(21:45):
because I want you to go back tothe Wednesday after date two
when you discovered the radiosilence and help me with each of
these feelings.
I want you to rate them on ascale of one to 10 in terms of
intensity.
So 10 means it's quite intenseon the Wednesday after date two.
One would be not intense at all.

(22:07):
How would you rate frustration?
So do they all have to have adifferent rating scale or can
they, like, as an example, canthey all be a 10?
They could all be a 10, but Iwould want you to consider each
feeling differently in thatparticular moment, the Wednesday

(22:28):
after day two.
So frustration...
I would say that was probably aseven.
And I'll tell you why.
Because I had already in my mindstarted to build a future with

(22:52):
this man.
Because I thought there couldreally be something here and we
could have something reallysolid.
And, you know, you mentioned inmy bio that I'd been in a
long-term relationship.
While my dating life is hellafun and adventurous, as you

(23:15):
mentioned, I would like to havethat gold standard of a
relationship again.
And that is what I'm lookingfor.
So when I'm dating, I am datingwith the outcome of a
relationship.
Yes.
If it falls short at just sex,I'm okay with that too.

(23:37):
If it falls short of just dates,I'm okay with that.
But in my mind, relationshipsare the gold standard and it's
something that I wanted.
So frustration was high on thatlist.
High.
Yeah.
Yes.
Tell me.
That context is very useful.
And again, it'll be veryimportant a bit later.

(24:00):
So in the behavior column, I'vealready started to put like,
what was going on for you wasthinking about the future you'd
built up in your mind.
Come back to the Wednesday afterdate two when you discover radio
silence.
How would you rate inferiority?
Sorry, being infuriated.

SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
I

SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
would say that...
It was also pretty high.
Yeah, I would say that wasprobably at about an eight.
Again, because like, how darehe?
And then anger.
He most certainly does not.

(24:44):
Also, yeah, I was pretty pissedoff about that.
So was the anger also about aneight?
Uh-huh.
Okay.
And feeling used or takenadvantage of where would, how
would you rate that?
You know, I wouldn't call that,I wouldn't say that's high on

(25:06):
that list only because to anextent I was complicit in it
too, in that, you know, we had agood physical time together.
So I would say maybe that's asix.
Okay.
And embarrassed.

UNKNOWN (25:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
Again, because I don't embarrass easily, I would
put that at perhaps a four.
Okay.
And despair.
Yeah, this was high because, youknow, it was, again, the future
planner in me had that decimatedat that point in time.
So I would say that would beabout an eight.

(25:50):
Eight.
And sadness, would that also bean eight?
Because you said sadness anddespair go hand in hand.
Agree.
And then the feeling ofrejection.
Oh, I mean, that's a 10.
Because I mean, clearly, I wasrejected in that.

(26:12):
Yes.
Feeling of inadequacy.
Like I'm not enough, or maybeI'm not I don't fit the
aesthetic or whatever it is.
You know, when I see, when Ithink of inadequacy, I, and you
know, I am such a contradictionon this and I'll completely own

(26:34):
that I'm a contradiction on thisbecause I know that we're a
diverse community.
I know that we should celebrateeverything.
But at the same time, I myselfaspire to the textbook
definition, whatever the fuckthat may be, of what a
successful gay man is.

(26:55):
So yeah, and so inadequate, yesand no, because I know that I am
worthy, but I also know that Ifall short of many standards
that gay men aspire to.
Okay.
I'm going to pause you there fora moment.

(27:16):
I'm going to pause you there fora moment because what you're
telling me now is it's reallyabout how you conceptualize and
begun to cope with thedifficulty of gay culture and
gay community and the datingscene.
And so we may get there.
We may not, but allow yourselftime.

(27:41):
to own how the degree to whichyou felt inadequate in that
moment.
So the Wednesday afternoon, howwould you rate that?
Because it might be higher thanyou would like to believe, or it
might be in the background.
It might be like a two or athree, I'm not sure.
How would you rate it?

(28:05):
Yeah, I would rate that at abouta four, to be honest, because I
know that in comparison toEllie, I was definitely
adequate.
I know that.
Yeah.
And then confused.
I imagine that was a bit high.
That was high.

(28:27):
I would say that was a 10because like, what the fuck?
All the signals were there thatthis was amazing.
And then, yeah.
Yeah.
And then I, Unworthy, similar toinadequate, but slightly
different.
How was your sense ofworthiness?

(28:50):
I would say that's also at abouta four, maybe even a five.
Oops.
Because, yeah, a four, maybeeven a five.
Yeah.
You struggle with wondering,where did I fall short again?
And so that feeling ofunworthiness comes in.

(29:12):
Yes, of course.
And then to what degree did youfeel vengeful and determined?
So give me a rating of intensityfor each one.
Oh, determined was the 10,honey.
When you get off a horse, yougot to get back on.
And so determined was definitelya 10.

(29:34):
I'd say like, you know, maybesubconsciously I'm vengeful, but
generally I wouldn't call myselfa vengeful person, but I'd say
that's probably a seven.
Cause like, you know what yougo, I'm going to do this anyway,
with or without you.
Yes.
And there's also, you know,earlier when we were talking
about being used, and I knowthat that word didn't quite fit.

(29:58):
I wonder if a better word wouldbe deceived.
Did you feel like you weredeceived?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good word.
And because when we feeldeceived, so if we have a
physical connection withsomebody and we're vulnerable
and then they ghost us, I cansee how we feel inadequate or If

(30:23):
we are spending time withsomebody and we think that they
like us and then they're gonesomehow.
Excuse me.
I think it's not so much that weare unworthy, but we it's like
we've been tricked in some way.
And so how would you rate yourlevel of deception that you
experienced?

(30:45):
Now that you've labeled that, Iwould say that was very high
because he had led me on tobelieve that he was just so
enamored with me.
And then to go from literally aweek later to having zero
communication, that's deception.
Yes.
And so I would put that at likea 10.

(31:07):
Ah, okay.
So bear with me a moment.
I'm going to...
I'm going to reorganize some ofthe feelings.
And this is actually one of thebenefits of moving to therapy
online because I've never usedto do this in person, but I

(31:28):
found that it can be quiteuseful to just take all the
feelings that are rated as nineand 10 and put them together
because it paints a slightlydifferent picture of what's been
going on.
So I'll just be a moment here.

(32:01):
Now, as you look at thisfeelings list, especially as I'm
rearranging it, my question toyou is, Do new feelings come up
that you feel like you mighthave forgotten?
Or is there new insight here inlooking at the range of feelings
that you didn't have before?
Is listing and identifying thefeelings in and of itself

(32:24):
helpful?
Yeah, so listing the feelings isincredibly helpful because I
like to think that I'm a mindfulperson and that I'm self-aware.
but I've never done that on thistype of level and the scale and

(32:46):
to see this in front of my eyesis, is a, is, yeah, it's pretty
insightful and useful in a waythat I've not done before.
Okay.
So the feelings that got thehighest ratings were deceived,
rejected, confused, determined.
And, you know, the most painfulones are probably deceived and

(33:11):
rejected.
And then confused is a bitneutral and determined.
We tend to see that we would seethat as positive.
So it's not a surprise to methat deceived got lost earlier
because there's so many strongfeelings and some overshadow
others.

(33:31):
And then you have your secondset of difficult feelings and I
think those are maybe some ofthe more painful ones.
Infuriated, anger, despair,sadness.
And then we go down a notch,vengeful, frustration, used,

(33:54):
unworthy, inadequate, andembarrassed.
So now, Joash, Wednesday afterdate two, you discover the radio
silence.
You're feeling this range ofemotions.
one of the things you did interms of your behavior was go
back onto the dating apps,right?

(34:15):
The other thing you're doing isyou're also thinking about the
future you'd built up in yourmind with this person.
So you're reflecting a bit onwhere you let your imagination
go.
In terms of behavior, is thereanything else you did?
So some people...
I ask about behavior.
It's a bit tricky because it'snot what you were thinking.

(34:37):
It's more like, did I go for ajog?
Did I start drinking?
Did I go back onto the datingapp?
Did I send a bunch of angrymessages?
You know, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
So immediate behaviors would betelling my friends and say, can

(34:57):
you believe the nerve of thisfucking asshole who's just
ghosted me?
Yes.
So there was that.
And...
So seeking some validation.
Seeking validation, yeah.
Yeah.
And probably the bigger aspectof seeking validation was

(35:19):
getting back into the datingapps because, you know, again, I
was determined to not let thisbe a speed bump on my...
road to finding a relationship.
So just getting back on andfinding someone else that I can

(35:40):
find a connection with.
Okay.
Okay.
And when you think about youknow, when you earlier, one of
the first feelings you came upwith was anger and you said
anger toward myself.
And so I'm thinking that angerand feeling deceived are,
there's a connection betweenthose two.

(36:01):
Cause it's not just, I wasdeceived or I feel deceived.
I've been tricked, but there's apiece of you that says, I let
myself be deceived.
So in your mind, when you say, Ifeel deceived, I feel anger.
What are you thinking?
What's the thought there?

(36:30):
That I allowed myself to getinto that situation against my
better judgment.
So going back to what Imentioned earlier, my instinct
is that I would have walked pastthis guy had I seen him on the
street and not really paid himany attention.
And my friends tease me and thatI find 90% of men hot.

(36:52):
He's not in the 90%.
So...
Joash, we can tell the audience,I am that friend who teases you.
Anytime we're together, I'mlike, oh my gosh, Joash finds
this guy.
He's so hot.
Like, what a surprise.

(37:14):
Like, okay, he's in...
He's in the top 90%,groundbreaking.
Okay.
He's not in the 90%.
So look, I think when it comesto confusion, there's confusion
about what happened, but I thinkthere's also confusion around

(37:34):
your approach to dating.
It throws you for a loop in away, because on the one hand you
say, you know, you lead withphysical attraction when you
first meet somebody.
And then you also think thatphysical attraction doesn't have
to be completely important.

(37:56):
And I wonder if it makes thatconfuses you a bit.
So it does.
So there's, there's two sides ofthat, right?
So I think physical attractionis key to igniting something.
You know, that's the Tinder.

(38:17):
Okay.
Yes.
You know, physical attraction isthe Tinder that gets us into
wanting to start a conversation.
But physical attraction fadesincredibly quickly if there's no
substance behind that.
And the substance being acerebral connection, the
substance being alignment ofvalues, the substance being

(38:39):
wanting the same thing havingthe same aspirations or similar
aspirations in life, becausethose are the building blocks
and the foundations forsomething that is sustainable as
a relationship.
And so while you may havephysicality as the tender, it

(39:02):
does not sustain somethinglong-term.
And so that's why I always,yeah, I'm attracted to you.
I think you're hot, but ifyou're vapid or you're not
aligned to who I am, this is notgoing to go anywhere beyond a
hookup or flirtation or whateverthe case is.

(39:25):
Okay.
So thank you for that.
There's a lot, there's a lot ofgood material here that we're
going to have to circle back towhen you felt like Now, I have a
sense of why you felt deceivedand what the thought is that's
connected to that.
Tell me about the thought thatwas connected to feeling

(39:46):
rejected, inadequate, andunworthy.
Because even though those havedifferent ratings, I would group
them together in terms ofsimilarity of emotion.
So when you felt rejected, whatwas going on in your mind?
And you alluded to this earlierabout being femme and not being

(40:06):
the Adonis, et cetera, but spellit out for me here.
What was going on in your mind?
I'm not, or.
So, so I tried to be pragmaticabout this.
And so let me tell you thepragmatic side.
No, don't be pragmatic.

(40:28):
Actually, I want you to not bepragmatic.
I want you to go right into,because when you're being
pragmatic, I'll be honest withyou, because I know you, when
you're being pragmatic, there'sa lot of work going into...
Avoiding?
Not just avoiding, but makingsure you're not misunderstood

(40:52):
and that I have a picture ofyour overall way of thinking.
It's really important to youthat I know that you're
realistic and that you'reresilient, even though your
heart was broken, right?
And so in this session, I wantyou to know that I get that.

(41:13):
I hear you.
You are pragmatic.
You are resilient.
And in this moment, you werefeeling pain.
So tell me, let's go deeper intothe pain.
So you felt rejected, unworthy.
Tell me about the thoughts thatare connected to rejection and
unworthiness.

(41:33):
So let me give you some othercontext that I didn't mention to
you.
Yes.
So Eddie is a white man who hasa penchant for brown men like
myself.
Now...
And his previous relationship,he was in a committed

(41:54):
relationship too.
I can't remember how long, butit was a long-term relationship
with another brown man.
And the minute I heard that, itwas a red flag that I am just
fulfilling his fetish for brownmen.
And I don't like that,especially if you're a white man

(42:20):
Don't fetishize me.
So again, against my betterjudgment, I entertained him.
Again, because he was effusivein his attraction to me, you
know, very verbal about it.
And so my ego played into it.

(42:44):
And when it was the ghosting, itwas, So going back to what was I
used, the anger that I felt, thepain, but also All right, Joash,

(43:21):
sorry we got cut off for amoment.
I just want to come back to thislast story you were telling me
about Ellie.
And if I were to turn that storyinto a thought, it would be, I
fulfilled his fetish for brownmen and it backfired.
You also said, I ignored the redflags.

(43:44):
If I could ask a follow-upthere, you know, Was there part
of you that ignored the redflags because you felt a bit of
a power dynamic or because hewas a white guy?
In your mind, sometimes indating is like someone else's

(44:07):
whiteness a bit seductive.
No.
So to me, that's never been thecase.
I don't find lure in white men.
I mean, while I've dated andsexed white men, I have not

(44:28):
fallen into that trap of...
Enslavement, if you want to callthat.

UNKNOWN (44:37):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (44:39):
So you don't feel trapped by that kind of
internalized struggle.
Okay.
Look.
If anything, I prefer brown men,to be very honest.
So no.
Okay.
That's not something.
And so if you fell into thisfetish and you ignored the red

(44:59):
flags, What does that mean?
Or what does it say about you?
If you fall for someone else'strap or you don't listen to your
own gut, what does that sayabout you?
That I'm not as attuned to myinner thoughts as I thought I

(45:27):
was, or that I, while I like tothink that I don't operate from
a place of ego that clearlydoesn't There are times when I
do.
And there's times when I getsucked into a trap of
affirmation from people whodon't mean anything.

(45:50):
And, you know, you know that I'mnot on social media.
And one of the reasons why Itook myself off of social media
is I didn't like who I was whenI got there.
the attention from people.
It kind of made me narcissistic.

(46:11):
And I didn't like that.
I found myself seeking thatvalidation of how many likes can
this post get?
How viral can this or whateverit is.
And I didn't like who I becameas a result of social media.
And this is exactly the samesituation now that I'm thinking

(46:32):
about it.
that I found myself in, exceptit's real world, it's not social
media.
It's with a human being that Ihad a connection with, not an
unknown face behind a screen.
Okay.
So I tried to put, when Iasked...
Like, what does this mean foryou?

(46:53):
Or what does it say about you?
I got a couple of things, butI'm not sure if I captured it
accurately.
So help me here.
The first thing is I'm not asattuned to myself and people
dynamics as I thought.
And the other one isaffirmations from people are
good for my ego.
And I don't want to be at themercy of others likes.

(47:17):
So that's accurate.
And so, It is accurate.
So I can give you some morecontext to that.
So I grew up as a fat kid, andthat bled into my young adult
life.
I started to lose weight when Iwas a young adult.
And over the course of my adultlife, my weight would fluctuate,

(47:42):
as it still does to this day.
And there's times where I'dbe...
10, 15 pounds heavier.
And there's times where I'll be10 pounds lighter.
And immediately when I washeavier, people would, the first
question people would ask me,are you still going to gym?
And I knew for someone who doesreligiously go to gym, whether

(48:05):
I'm fat or thin, I knew that wasa subtle way of saying, oh,
you've gone fat.
And so conversely, when peoplewould say, oh, you're looking,
you've lost weight, you'relooking so great.
I would consciously distancemyself from that association

(48:28):
that my attractiveness is builtinto the size of my body.
And that goes back directly towhat you've just put down as
that second thought bubble.
Yeah.
While I have tried toconsciously dissociate myself
from people's perception of mylevel of attractiveness, I,

(48:54):
honest to God, try to dissociatemyself from that.
I clearly do not within thecontext of dating.
That I, to some extent, thriveon that.
Whereas in social circles, Iactively dissociate myself But
yet in a sexualized context, ina dating context, I'm clearly

(49:18):
thriving on that.
So in this context with Ellie,when you were ghosted, was one
of your thoughts about yourbody?
Is that where your mind went?
Like, is my body not thin enoughor muscular enough?
Yeah, not just body.

(49:40):
you know, it goes into allfacets of who I am.
So body would be one componentof that.
The other components are goingback to what we mentioned
earlier.
Am I just too, too effeminatefor him?
Am I not brown enough for him?
Because while I am a brownperson, I'm not the most brown
person out there in terms ofcultural identity.

(50:03):
You know, he's more brown than Iam for, for crying out loud.
I mean, he's really, followsHindu religion and all of these
fucking things that I, you know,while I'm curious about it, I
don't.
I grew up Christian.
I don't eat curry and biryanievery day while I do love it.

(50:23):
Does he do that?
All these things.
I think he does.
I don't know who the fuck is,but you know, I mean, this is
more than a red flag.
Somebody who eats biryani everyday is a red flag, sweetie.
I don't know, but he was likeculturally a lot more Brown than

(50:46):
I was.
That's what I'm saying.
And so, and he made you feel fora moment, not Brown enough.
Cause like to be Brown doesn'tmean to be Hindu.
Right.
But that is, From theperspective of the white gaze,
that is absolutely whatbrownness is.
It's about, you know, likeimages of gods and goddesses or

(51:07):
higher beings.
It's ritual and all of this kindof stuff.
So I'm thinking I'm not brownenough.
So go stay with this for amoment.
If you're not brown like othermen or you're not as into this
idea of culture, then what doesthat say about you?
Is that he may not see me asbeing authentic.

(51:32):
He may see me as being whatother people would.
And does that mean that you, fora moment, worry that you're not
authentic enough or you're notconnected enough to your
identity?
I don't.
I mean...
No.
So...
Yes, I don't feel that, but Ifeel that that may be his

(51:52):
perception because I'mcomfortable with my level of
cultural identity.
I am not by any stretch of theimagination ashamed of my
culture.
I truly embrace it, but do Ibathe in all its glory every

(52:14):
moment of every day?
Hell no.
Well, yeah.
So if I got this right, you'rethinking I'm not brown enough.
And it's a reminder that peoplethink, people might think I'm
not connected to my culture andthat puts them off.

(52:36):
And coming back to my body isn'tthin enough or good enough.
Were there any, were there anyother thoughts that were
associated to your body?
So I know that there's a,there's a visual memory and
image of like the fat kid andpeople responding or, or giving
you compliments about weightloss and, and, and you don't

(52:58):
like that.
Did this person ever comment onyour body in that way?
He did.
He was actually very positiveabout my body.
He always says, oh, I can seeyour workout.
And that was something, again,that I got sucked into.

(53:21):
I got sucked into the ego playthat was there.
the affirmations that he gaveme.
And again, I consciously triedto not allow myself to do that,
but clearly I did within thiscontext.

(53:41):
And so going back to thosefeelings, it's that feeling of,
of anger and maybe despair thatI am not as, um, Elevated as I
thought in my thinking, that I'mnot as evolved as I thought in

(54:04):
my thinking or in myself-acceptance.
Ah, so let's make thedistinction here.
When you say evolved in yourself-acceptance or in your
thinking, what are you, in whatway?
What do you mean by evolved?

(54:28):
Like I don't love myself as muchas I thought I did?
To an extent.
So let me give you this context.
I've always...
I've had to make peace with mybody in my thirties.

(54:48):
If I didn't, I would have justbeen a crazy hot mess if I did
not.
So I have made peace with mybody and the journey and
trajectory that I've been onthrough weight loss and weight
gain over the years.
And so I would like to thinkthat at this point in time that

(55:09):
I, that I, am fulfilled in whatmy body is, flaws and all.
I genuinely do feel that way.
So let me preface it.
I genuinely do feel that way.
But then there's also the point,the part of me rather that feels
my body, as much as I amself-accepting of my body, does

(55:30):
not fit into what the culture,the gay culture, yes, validates
and accepts.
Yep.
Okay.
So when you say my body isn'tthin enough for good enough,
like that's one of the thoughts,I get that you've gone through a

(55:51):
process of self acceptance.
But you're also saying here thatit's not thin enough for good
enough for gay culture.
Is that right?
And yeah, for the gay culture.
So, because let's be honest,social media has also done a

(56:12):
good thing, which is say that weshould preach body positivity,
body neutrality, that our bodiesare our bodies and we should all
embrace and accept, which is agreat thing.
But that is something that is asocial media trend.
Does it translate into the mindsof what actually transpires in

(56:33):
actions and On dating apps?
I don't think so.
Okay.
So give me a moment here.
What you're saying, if we wereto bring that into this
situation, is that this guymaybe lied to me about being
into my body.

(56:53):
Is that what you're thinking?
Okay.
And...
When you think your body isn'tgood enough for gay culture, one
of the implications is thatlike, okay, so this guy lied to
me.
And if he lied to you, or ifyour body isn't good enough for
gay culture, what's one of thelong-term consequences of that?

(57:18):
Or is there a fear associatedwith that?
So the fear for me is thatyou'll never fit into Or you'll
never find happiness.
Like I said, I'm relationshiporiented.
So if I don't fit into thetextbook definition of what a

(57:40):
gay man should look like, thenmy chances diminish at finding
someone suitable for me.
Okay.
So you're thinking based on whatyou told us before, you know,
where you have this largerbelief that physical attraction

(58:00):
sparks a connection and thenthat connection gets sustained
with emotional and mentalconnection later on.
So, you know, if your body isn'tthin enough or good enough for
gay culture, what you're sayinghere is that there are fewer
opportunities for sparking.

(58:22):
Yeah.
With other gay men.
Right.
And if I were to take thatfurther, like in a moment of
despair or in a moment whereyou're feeling quite dire, you
might say, I'll never findhappiness.
That's like the underlying fear.
Okay.

(58:45):
Let's pause here for a moment.
I'm going to go.
back to a couple of the thoughtsthat we've already put down
here.
What we have been doing is we'vebeen enumerating what I would
call your automatic thoughts.
Now, because you had fourfeelings that had a rating of
10, another four that had arating of eight, right?

(59:06):
We're working with eightfeelings that are quite
prominent.
So even if it feels like thiscolumn is taking a long time, or
you might feel Sometimes peoplefeel a bit frustrated because
they're not sure where it'sgoing.
That's completely normal becausewe're working with a number of
emotions.
And with those emotions, we'vegot a lot of thoughts.

(59:28):
So now it's my job to ask yousome follow-up questions.
I want to distill these thoughtsinto something that's a bit more
basic or something that'shelping to drive a lot of the
difficult feelings.
When you say, I allowed myselfto get into the situation
despite my better judgment, likeif I were to ask you, what does

(59:55):
that mean?
Is that, again, about you notbeing attuned, as attuned as you
thought?
Yeah.
It is.
It is about that.
It's also about not trusting myinstinct.
Okay.
So, and...

(01:00:16):
Your instinct.
Now, this is tricky because yourinstinct was about physical
attraction, was it not?
Or was your instinct, was thered flag that I'm not physically
attracted to him so I shouldn'tgo further?
Or was your instinct that hefetishizes brown men so I

(01:00:36):
shouldn't take it, I shouldn'tpursue it?
It's both of those.
I know both of those things.
Okay.
And when you didn't listen tothose things, what is it?
There's a reason you did it.
You know, what were you, why didyou want to put them aside?
You were hoping that what wouldhappen?

(01:01:01):
So the reason I put them asideis because the banter, the
conversation, the chemistry andthe spark were all there.
And so I thought, let's give himthe benefit of the doubt.
And so, so what if, his previouspartner was, was Brown, you
know, and if that's his, histhing, then that's his thing.

(01:01:22):
But this is like a really niceguy that I'm having a great time
with.
Surely he deserves to have achance or he deserves to, to be,
to be part of my experience.

UNKNOWN (01:01:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:47):
So he deserves to have a chance.
And you started building up animage in your mind about what
your future could be liketogether.
Tell me just a little bit aboutthat.
Where did you picture yourself?
Like grocery shopping together,more dates, having a home
together.

(01:02:07):
How far did your mind go?
So a life together, a life asin...
committed relationship wherewhich comes with all the
accoutrements of what acommitted relationship is like
weekends away and being part ofeach other's social circles and

(01:02:32):
um cohabiting or if notcohabiting staying over at each
other's place on a weekend thosekinds of things So I thought

(01:02:57):
we'd have a life together.
Commitment, trips, what myfriend Alanis Morissette calls
flavors of entanglement.
You romanticized that, right?
And when you were ghosted, yourealized that that's not going

(01:03:18):
to happen.
And if that isn't going tohappen with this person who is
so like, they're throwingthemselves at you.
What does this mean to you?
Or how did you try to make senseof that?

(01:03:42):
Does that when you started tothink I'll never find happiness?
No.
So I wouldn't say that I'd neverfind happiness.
It's just that- I'm not sayingyou believe that.
I'm saying, is that where yourmind went?

(01:04:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
It is.
Because your pragmatic side andyour resilient side is quite
strong and that's good, but thatacts as a barrier to getting
some of these other thoughts.
Because to saythat I'll neverfind happiness.
And to admit that that wentthrough your mind might make you
feel a bit exposed orembarrassed, right?

(01:04:26):
Because you're this pragmatic,resilient person.
How could you think that?
Yeah.
Okay.
And that is true.
Yeah.
So when I look at your thoughts.
These are the automatic thoughtsthat are connected to the
feelings.
I allowed myself to get into thesituation despite my better

(01:04:47):
judgment.
Well, what does this mean or sayabout me?
I'm not as attuned to myself andpeople dynamics as I thought.
The other thought is I fulfilledhis fetish for brown men and it
backfired.
I ignored the red flags.
So part of this is like hedeserves a chance and we can
have a life together.
And if we go into that a bitdeeper, it's not about him
deserving a chance.

(01:05:08):
It's about I thought we'd have alife together.
Commitment trips, the flavors ofentanglement, and the
consequence is I'll never findhappiness.
There's this thing about notwanting to be at the mercy of
other people's likes, but I'mnot seeing that as, that's part

(01:05:29):
of the puzzle, but notparticularly, it's kind of a
standalone, I think, unless it'spart of the deception.
So I'll ask you here, when youaccept or lean into people's
praise and affirmation, is therea negative consequence of that?

(01:05:51):
Do you feel like you've beenweakened by that in some way?
Yeah, I would say weakened.
I mean, that's a great way inwhich you've described it.
But it's like I am placing my...
happiness, my contentment, andmy fulfillment of who I am in

(01:06:15):
the hands of others.
That's what that's about.
And so I would never want toallow someone else to control my
level of joy and happiness andfulfillment through their
validation.

(01:06:36):
especially if it's randomstrangers or someone that's
fleeting.
Well, this person maybe feelsrandom or fleeting in
retrospect, but at the time hedidn't, right?
In your mind's eye, you hadbuilt a life with him.
And I think this is a hardbalance where how do you not

(01:07:01):
place your contentment insomeone else's hands?
How can you be completely selfreliant?
If your end game, as you say, isaround relationships?
So one of your thoughts like aswe distill this is that i've

(01:07:26):
been weakened in some way byplacing contentment in someone
else's hands there's also thisimagery and memory around the
fat kid and people's responsesto weight loss i'm going to
remove that only because thatwas helpful to get our mind
going but the thought there wasmy body isn't thin enough or
good enough for gay culture Andwhat does this mean?

(01:07:48):
What does this say?
What does this tell us?
That maybe this guy lied to meabout being into my body.
And if my body isn't goodenough, then there's going to be
fewer opportunities for thespark with other gay men.
And again, we circle back toI'll never find happiness.
And from what you've told me,when someone else thinks you're

(01:08:12):
not brown enough or notconnected enough to your
culture, it doesn't reallybother you.
So this Like this guy might'vethought that and you're like,
whatever, who cares?
So my question to you, Joash, iswhich of these thoughts would
you identify as your hotthought?
Meaning the one that is mostsalient, the one that's most

(01:08:35):
prominent, that's driving a lotof the difficult feelings,
whether they are confused,rejected or deceived, infuriated
or sad or despair?
You're likely going to pick oneof the ones that has an arrow
next to it, because those arethe ones that I've distilled a

(01:08:55):
bit, but not necessarily.
So what stands out to you?
Take a moment.
In the context of ghosting,being ghosted by him.
On that, yes, on the Wednesdayafter date two, when you
discover the radio silence, youfeel deceived, rejected,
confused, determined,infuriated, angry, despair, and

(01:09:20):
sad.
Yeah.
I'll never find happiness.
Yeah.
You know?
And then that really is...
Because I go back to the thoughtthat I'm going to die alone on
my couch and no one's going tofind me for weeks on end.
Well, look, I've seen your couchand it's a very good couch.

(01:09:45):
And I know that doesn't bringyou any comfort in this moment.
Because we enjoy couches whenwe're alive, of course.
So look, one of...
your automatic thoughts here andyour hot thought is I'll never
find happiness.
Now, we're going to go through ashort process of evaluating this

(01:10:08):
thought.
What is some evidence you havein your dating and relationship
life that supports the idea thatyou'll never find happiness?
Because it comes from somewhere.
Say that again.
I've been dating...
I've been dating for three and ahalf years and I've not been

(01:10:31):
able to have something sustainedbeyond two, maybe three dates.
And when I have had it beyondthree dates, it was highly
dysfunctional and I knew itimmediately.
And so I curtailed it as soon asI could.
But yeah, a lot of that is basedon my current experience that

(01:10:53):
I've been single for...
period of time and there hasbeen no tangible indication
while other people have beensingle for far less time than I
have and they have went on tomerely find their version of
happiness so you kind of resignyourself to maybe it's not gonna

(01:11:16):
happen for me so when you seeother people who have found
significant relationships with ashorter interval in between is
there somebody you're thinkingabout in particular like you
could just say my friend withthis initial yeah so yeah so um

(01:11:36):
a friend and also you know my exwent on to have two significant
relationships after me and umit's like what the hell's wrong
with me i thought i was a decentperson i I'm kind of cute, but
clearly not measuring up to whatpeople, I don't know.

(01:11:58):
So yeah, that's where my mindgoes.
Look, I'm going to come back tothe automatic thoughts,
actually, because you saidsomething right now that made me
think that perhaps I'll neverfind happiness is a belief you

(01:12:20):
have, or it's a scary belief youhave, if we were to add to that,
if you were to say, I'll neverfind happiness because, how
would you finish that sentence?

(01:12:47):
Because I...
don't meet the expectations ofwhat people want in a
relationship.
And what do they want that youdon't have or that you think you
don't have?
Someone who is more masculine,because I'm the furthest away

(01:13:11):
from that.
Someone who is...
has a more perfect body becauseI'm, again, furthest away from
that.
Someone who is...
Okay.

(01:13:32):
So when you say this idea of theperfect body, is this like the
Adonis physique you're talkingabout?
Like the broad shoulders, smallwaist, big butt?
Okay.
So look, I think...
we've added a bit of meat tothis automatic thought here.

(01:13:53):
So I'll never find happinessbecause I'm not masculine enough
and don't have the Adonisphysique.
Okay.
How does it feel for you to havethat in bold letters in front of
you?
I kind of noticed your affectand your, your tone shift a

(01:14:14):
little bit.
What were the, how are youfeeling as we identify that more
specifically?
You know, the thing is, it iswho I am.
And so if someone doesn't acceptthat, it's not going to change.

(01:14:40):
That's not what I'm asking.
Joash, you're protectingyourself and I appreciate that.
I'm not going to ask you tocomment on it further.
Rather, what I will say is Inoticed a shift in just how you
were speaking when we put thisout there.

(01:15:03):
So all that to say is that ithits a difficult and vulnerable
space for you.
We know that if somebody elseisn't into you, of course,
they're the ones missing out.
We know that.
That's not the immediate thingthat goes through your mind.
That's not what makes up thedespair and sadness.
Okay.
Let's go back to evidence thatsupports this hot thought that

(01:15:23):
you'll never find happinessbecause you're not masculine
enough or don't have the Adonisphysique.
Where else do you get evidencethat supports that?
So your friend and your ex, arethey more masculine?
Do they have that physique?
They do.

(01:15:45):
Which one?
Are they both more masculine?
Oh, yeah.
Both of them are, yeah.
And they both have a similarphysique?
They both do.
What does that look like?
What are we talking about?
Muscles?
Or abs?
Or all of these things?

(01:16:08):
Yeah.
I mean, if you had to look up apicture of Adana's physique,
both of them are that thoseimages oh okay ah okay um okay
so your friend and your exthey've had significant

(01:16:30):
relationships with smallerintervals um you've been single
for three and a half years it'sbeen difficult to go beyond date
two or three and I, you know,both your friend and your ex,
they're more masculine than youand they are, they've got this

(01:16:51):
muscular physique.
So I see how that, I see howthis comes to shape the belief.
Is there any other evidence?
Like, for example, has someonetold you that they would date
you if you were more masculineor had a different physique?

(01:17:13):
I wouldn't say they've said itdirectly, but you hear the
nuances in the language.
Give me an example.
So someone in relation to yousaid, oh, I'm not really into
camp men.

(01:17:36):
Or, you know, you're cute, butyou're just...
to femme or whatever the caseis.
Oh, people have said that toyou.
So they'll say you're too femmeor too camp.
Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:55):
Ah,

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:58):
okay.
Okay.
Let's go to the other column.
Now, this one is a bit harder,but just as important.
So what is evidence you havethat doesn't support this idea
that you'll never find happinessbecause you're not masculine

(01:18:19):
enough or don't have the Adonisphysique.
So some evidence from your lifethat happiness is possible and
that people like yourmasculinity is enough or your
physique is enough.

(01:18:39):
Yeah.
I was in a relationship for 13years with someone who loved me,
whom I loved.
And so that is the evidence thatsupports that, that I've had
before and that I will have itagain.
Okay.
And he was an Adonis, so tospeak.

(01:19:02):
So I just want to put that inthere.
And yeah, Have you been on dateswhere people appreciated your,
your, your feminist or yourcampiness or where people did?
Tell me, give me, tell me aspecific time.
Are there many times or was it afew specific people?
It's been many times, you know,because I, So the funny thing is

(01:19:33):
I like camp men.
I find camp men attractive.
Well, yeah.
Yeah, I don't likehyper-masculine men.
I just think they're so boring.
So I've been with guys who arecamp, and they appreciate my
campness.

(01:19:54):
So a specific example, yeah, Iwas dating someone who– loved
yeah we again it was just like aone or two dates that we went on
who thought that my sense ofstyle was really interesting and
was fun and so he liked thatabout me and my my sense of

(01:20:18):
style is anything butheteronormative and the same
person was also very much inlove with my body You know,
everything about my body.
And so he validated me on manylevels.
And so this is, you've been witha couple of guys then, I think,
from what I've heard, that arereally in love with your body.

(01:20:41):
Including the guy who ghostedyou, right?
Including the fucking guy whoghosted me.
Okay.
Now, Take a deep breath with me.

(01:21:09):
We're going to move over to thenext column, which is the
alternative thought.
Now, alternative thoughts arenot positive affirmations.
A positive affirmation would beeverything happens for a reason.
One day I'll meet the person ofmy dreams.
I don't subscribe to thatbecause I don't think that It
speaks to your experience andwhat you're talking about here.

(01:21:33):
Alternative thoughts are gonnabe alternatives to what we have
in bold here that says I'llnever find happiness because I'm
not masculine enough and I don'thave the Adonis physique.
So given that we've gone throughthe evidence for and against,
what might an alternativethought be?

(01:21:57):
Something that's more accurateand a bit more helpful.
Is that I will continue to havea very adventurous and fun
dating life.
Okay.
And is there happiness in that?
There is happiness in that, yes.

(01:22:20):
But it's fleeting happiness.
And it's situational happiness.

UNKNOWN (01:22:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:27):
And so, okay, situational and fleeting.
What if I call that shortperiods of happiness?
So instead of saying I will, I'mgoing to say I can have short
periods of happiness.

(01:22:50):
Would you say, and that could beokay?
Or are you not ready to saythat?
No.
It is okay because so, you know,again, going back to how I'd
like to frame things, it's likeI have had a pretty fun time the
past three and a half years.
So it's not like I'm sittinghere depressed, but, you know,

(01:23:11):
while the outcome is that Iwould like a relationship, I've
had some really fun experiencesthat have given me short periods
of happiness.
It's just that beyond thosemoments, A couple of
interactions.
I would really like to getbeyond that.
Okay.
And so, yeah.

(01:23:33):
So when people ghost me, Ishould remind myself that, well,
how would you finish thatsentence?
That I need to kiss a thousandtoads before I find a prince.
Yes.

(01:23:54):
That, okay.
And because that is about, notabout what you're lacking, it's
about the process.

UNKNOWN (01:24:06):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:18):
Okay.
Okay.
When people ghost me, I shouldremind myself that it's not
about something I'm lacking, butrather the process.
Kiss a thousand tones.
You also said that you reallywant to get past date two and

(01:24:41):
three.
And when that doesn't happen andyou're ghosted after date two or
three, What's a helpful thing toremind yourself of or to tell
yourself?

(01:25:01):
If I don't get past date two orthree, then I'm also part of the
culture.
And I don't think this issomething we spoke about in the
session.
But we're part of this culturewhere you're a face in a sea of

(01:25:26):
faces.
You're a face in a gallery offaces.
And so very often we becomedisposable when you're in that
gallery of faces because yousimply move on to the next.
And so...
I'm very much aware of that.

(01:25:47):
And as I said, we didn't speakabout that in this session, but
I'm also aware of how thatdating culture plays out in real
life.
Okay.
So if I don't get past date twoor three, it's often because of

(01:26:09):
the culture of being disposablein a sea of options.
Rahim, hold on for me.
I've got someone at my door.
Is that okay?
No problem.
Totally okay.
Go ahead.
All right.

(01:26:30):
So here are our alternativethoughts.
I will continue to have anadventurous dating life.
I can have short periods ofhappiness.
When people ghost me, it's notabout something I'm lacking, but
rather the process.

(01:26:51):
If I don't get past date two orthree, it's often because of the
culture of being disposable in asea of options.
Now, you've also been comparingyourself to your ex and your
friend.
So I think you've got to putsomething in your alternative
thought that captures that.
So while other people have morerelationships, I don't know.

(01:27:18):
I don't know what thealternative thought is here.
Help me out.
So the alternative thought isthat there's someone for
everyone.
As much as people aspire to theideal of masculine, Adonis-like

(01:27:40):
bodies, there's other people whoembrace differences.
And so I may not be thebenchmark, But not everyone
likes vanilla.
Yes, totally.

(01:28:01):
So there are many guys whoembrace people like me.
Okay.
Are there any other alternativethoughts that you think would be
helpful to add there?

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:26):
that

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:32):
life as a single person can be just as
fulfilling.
So life as a single person canbe fulfilling.
feeling.

(01:28:53):
It's a tricky one, right?
Because you don't want to placeyour contentment in someone
else's hands, which says I cansatisfy all my needs, but you've
also got the fantasy that what,you know, with these flavors of
entanglement.
So I think one of the thoughtshere, alternative thoughts is

(01:29:15):
it's hard to to open up to theidea of another person when I'm
often working on beingself-reliant.

(01:29:39):
This is true.
So that doesn't have to be analternative thought, but I think
that might even have been yourinitial automatic thought, you
know, but I just thought I'd putit in there so you have it when
we're done.
I'm just going to make this abit smaller so it all fits on
one page.
All right.

(01:29:59):
Joash, as you...
I'm going to ask that you readthrough these alternative
thoughts and meditate on them alittle bit.
And by meditate, I just mean,which one do you think brings
you most comfort?
Or do you believe in the mostwhen you think about your
situation on that Wednesdayafter date two?

(01:30:42):
So having gone through thisexercise, if I was in that
situation again, how would Irank these?
Well, you don't have to rankeach one.
I want you to see if you canpick one that you, it's an
alternative thought you actuallybelieve in and that would bring

(01:31:05):
you the most comfort.
So for example, you, you, you,you mentioned you, It was kind
of in passing, you said, youknow, I think that there's
someone for everyone.
But I also know that you don'tcompletely think that because
you also said that you can livea fulfilling life as a single
person.
So this is about which thoughtbrings you most comfort in your

(01:31:27):
life and which thought youbelieve in most.
So is it, I will continue tohave an adventurous dating life?
I can have short periods ofhappiness.
Life as a single person can befulfilling too.
When people ghost me, it's notabout something I'm lacking, but
rather the process.
If I don't get past date two orthree, it's because of the

(01:31:48):
culture of being disposable in asea of options.
There are many guys who doembrace guys like me.
It's hard to open up to the ideaof another person when I'm often
working on being self-reliant.
It's the first one.
I'll continue having anadventurous dating life.
That's the predominantalternative thought.

(01:32:10):
And does that bring you, whenyou're feeling, when you've been
ghosted, does that bring youcomfort?
Oh yeah.
It does.
So why is that?
Because if you have anadventurous dating life, what
does that mean?
Or what does that say about you?
Is that there's hope.
And that while this has beenhard, it's been painful, and

(01:32:36):
it's not the outcome I wanted,I'll figure it out again.
And I'm going to try it again.
And I'm going to allow myself tobe in a situation where I could
be ghosted once more.
But I'll always allow myselfto...

(01:32:58):
be vulnerable, I'll always putmyself out there in the hope of,
in the search of something morefulfilling or something not even
more fulfilling because I have afulfilled life right now.
Something that is going to bringa new dimension to my life.

(01:33:22):
And okay, so I will continue tohave an adventurous dating life.
And that's the excitingdimension of your relationship
life.
Is that right?
That's right.
And are you saying a datinglife, there's hope that it will

(01:33:43):
eventually turn into somethinglong-term?
Or are you saying that whether Icontinue to be single or date
somebody long-term, I could behappy with both?
I'm just trying to figure outwhat you're reminding yourself
here.
That it is both.
That...
While I do want a relationship,I still really enjoy the whole

(01:34:07):
dating culture that I'm in rightnow.
And it's something that gives mefun experiences, fun stories,
but also exposes me to somereally great people.

(01:34:28):
In fact, people who've becomesome of my closest friends.
So these dating experiences havenot resulted in naught.
They have given me other avenuesof deep fulfillment and joy.
And if it doesn't work out withsomeone, it will work out
eventually.

(01:34:48):
And if it doesn't work out inthe way that I want to in terms
of a relationship, it's going toadd different textures to my
life.
Mm-hmm.
And...
Is there something you want totell yourself about being
deceived and rejected that isalso more comforting?

(01:35:20):
I don't think there's anythingcomforting about being deceived.
But I think the comforting thingabout being rejected is that...
you're never going to please100% of people 100% of time.
And I'm okay with that.

UNKNOWN (01:35:37):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:37):
So based on what we've just said, so, you know,
there's, I will continue to havean adventurous dating life.
That is true.
You believe in that.
I enumerated that a bit becauseI think that that in a context
when somebody is like grievingand feeling very sad, that might
be hard to conjure up.
More likely is this followingstatement.
Tell me what you think aboutthis.

(01:35:58):
I can want a long-termrelationship and continue to
enjoy dating life.
Dating also teaches me newthings and it's fair to be upset
about feeling deceived.
Does that, does that speak toyou?
Does that capture what you'vejust been saying?
Okay.
I'm going to put that in bold.

(01:36:21):
Now, when you read that, thatalternative thought, I want you
to think about, conjure up thefeeling of being ghosted.
We've all been there, right?
It's painful.
Tell yourself, okay.
I want a long term relationshipand I continue to enjoy dating

(01:36:44):
life.
Dating teaches me new things.
And it's fair to be upset rightnow about being deceived.
Does the intensity of beingdeceived?
How would you rate it?
We're going back to youroriginal feelings, and we're
rating them now we're re ratingthem.
So don't look at what you ratedthem before.
In this moment, when youmeditate on the alternative

(01:37:05):
thought, how do you rate theintensity of these feelings?
So deceived is still high upthere because that's still a 10.
Uh-huh, yeah.
Good.
How about rejected?
I'm okay with being rejected.
So I would put that as being afive or a six.

(01:37:30):
Okay.
Or rather a four or a five,yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:37:35):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:40):
I would say that's still high.
So eight, because again, thenotion of ghosting is that
you're not given the opportunityto understand the context.
Absolutely.
And how determined do you feel?
Oh, still a 10, honey.

(01:38:01):
And infuriated?
Um...
Probably say maybe about aseven.
Okay.
And anger?
At yourself?

(01:38:21):
Also about a seven.
Okay.
Because again, the context ofghosting is you just don't know
why.
Despair?
Yeah, like four.
Okay.
And sadness?
Also four.
Okay.
Vengefulness?
I'll show him.

(01:38:44):
you're probably less vengefulbecause again going back to one
of the points lower down on thealternative thoughts list we
know that this is part of ourculture so i would say maybe a
five yes and your level offrustration This is still high

(01:39:11):
for me, you know, because beingghosted is a frustrating thing,
especially when there's beenpositive indicators.
So I'd still put this at about asix or a seven.
How about feeling used?

(01:39:34):
About four.
Unworthy.
I would put that at four aswell.
Inadequate.
Four.

(01:39:54):
And embarrassed.
I would put that at three.
All right.
Are there any new feelings thatare emerging for you?
Hopeful.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:40:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:18):
anything else?
I'm trying to say adventurous.

(01:40:46):
I don't know if you can sayappealing.
but a sense of wonder.
I'll put down adventurous.
Is that okay for sense ofwonder?
I also wonder if you feel abit...

(01:41:07):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Hopeful, optimistic.
That's good.
I wonder if you...
are feeling a bit of like whenthe anger goes down or dials
down a bit.
And I know you rated itsimilarly, but when it dials

(01:41:28):
down a bit, sometimes there'smore room for grief and sadness.
So I'm a bit surprised that yoursadness rating went down.
I kind of suspected that youranger rating would go down and
your sadness rating would go up.
because you had built a life inyour mind with this person.
So I wonder if the feeling hereis either like mourning and

(01:41:54):
grief or it's self-compassion,right?
Because there's a loss, butthere's also self-compassion for
having the dream.
Yeah, so I tend to be a realistoptimist And so I think I'm

(01:42:14):
always going to find, firstly,the hope of any situation.
And so in that situation, thehope was there's something that
can be built here.
And when I look at thealternative thought, the hope
then comes in when there's, Icould recreate this or not

(01:42:36):
necessarily recreate, but I canfind this with someone who is
worthy of me and whom I'm worthyof too.
And so that's why the sadnesshas diminished because I see
that I'm able to remain hopeful.
Yes.

(01:42:57):
And you said something veryimportant here.
So, you know, when somebodyghosts you, it makes you feel
unworthy, but you're somebodywho has said, I would prefer a
conversation about the endingbecause I don't mind being
rejected, right?
So to me, it sounds like youmight be feeling a bit righteous

(01:43:19):
in your integrity or you mightactually be feeling worthy.
You're actually, it's not abouthow unworthy do I feel, but
there's a sense of likeworthiness and confidence in
your integrity.
How would you rate, if I saidlike, How worthy do you feel
next to this person whoshort-sightedly ghosted you?

(01:43:45):
You know, I know I'm worthy ofmany things.
So I would rate my worthinesshigh.
I would put it as a nine or a 10even.
Okay.
And then is there a kind ofrighteousness?
I would say so.

(01:44:06):
I would say that, you know, I dofeel that.
Okay.
All right.
I'm going to leave it therebecause we were adding new
feelings and that's good.
So, you know, by the time we getto the end of a thought record,
right.
Adding new feelings can behelpful because it means that,

(01:44:29):
you know, we've gone from, thedifficulty of identifying basic
emotions in a situation andexpanded, expanding to creating
space for so many more.
So you began by saying, youknow, you were deceived,
rejected, confused, determined,infuriated, angry, despair,
sadness.
You had vengefulness,frustration, feeling used,

(01:44:52):
unworthy, inadequate, andembarrassed in that order.
And now we've moved to them abit differently in terms of, um,
similarity right so give me onesecond here so we've got
deceived and rejected andrejected's gone from 10 to a 5

(01:45:16):
deceived has stayed the same butthat's fine because in your
alternative thought you've saidthat it's fair to be upset about
feeling deceived or about beingdeceived um your level of
determination is good but yourresentment and your vengefulness
has gone down.
You've discovered not just thatyou're not unworthy, but that

(01:45:38):
you are worthy.
You're optimistic, adventurous,hopeful, and you've got a bit of
righteousness, which is healthy.
You're infuriated, frustrated,angry, confused at a similar
level that you were before, butyour sense of feeling used has
gone down.

(01:45:58):
Your sense of being confused hasgone down a bit because remember
in the process of thealternative thoughts, you've
also made, you've changed theattributions.
You've said it has something todo with our culture.
It has something to do with thegrinder grid, all of this.
Yeah.
And then your feelings ofdespair, sadness, and

(01:46:18):
unworthiness went down quite abit and inadequate and
embarrassed went down just atouch.
Just tell me, what are some ofyour overall reflections?
What have you gained?
What does it feel like to gothrough this process?

(01:46:40):
So this has articulated thingsthat I've felt, but not paid
attention to.
I mean, I've not introspected atthis level to know that I still

(01:47:01):
have difficulties with my bodyand how that manifests itself in
the relationships, datingsituations that I find myself in
and how that then impacts theoutcomes that I'm having.

(01:47:24):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:47:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:25):
And so that is what this has really brought to
light.
And I mean, I've known thatsubconsciously, but I've not
known that in this way where itgives me some kind of
searchlight to make a tangiblechange.
Yeah.
And you know what really stoodout to me, Joash?
Like it's actually, it'sstriking and mind-blowing to

(01:47:48):
some degree that in your mind,you've got this formula.
You have this core belief that,that people spark with physical
attraction and then they buildsomething deeper.
And forgive me if this is anoverstep or I've gone too far,
but it seems to me like you'vebuilt a lot of your gym routine

(01:48:12):
and emphasis on gym around beingable to provide the initial
physical attraction so thatsomething deeper can be built.
But You discovered with thisperson, Ellie, that there wasn't
a physical spark to begin withand the other things could be
built.

(01:48:33):
So I think there's a largertakeaway here that the formula
might be different for differentpeople, right?
So it's not always about thephysical spark first and then
something else.
I think we maybe, Ellie hastaught us Right.
You said people teach youthings.

(01:48:54):
I think Ellie has taught us thatthe formula can be disrupted or
altered sometimes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's true.
Oh, great.
Joash, I'm going to thank youfor being a guest on the CBT
Dive.
I think your insights are goingto be quite helpful for other

(01:49:14):
listeners.
And I just want to appreciate,you know, you being here and
being vulnerable.
Maybe we'll see you again.
But thank you for going throughthis process.
Take care.
Thank you, Rahim.
Bye.

SPEAKER_00 (01:49:30):
Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to our YouTube channelat thecbtdive.ca.
You can also listen on the gowherever you get your podcasts.
To follow Rahim on social media,check out ladyativan.com.
See you soon.

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E22 The aftermath of being ghosted

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