May 28, 2024 • 41 mins
Host and psychotherapist Rahim Thawer talks with David, a masters student who is struggling with balancing his career with his schoolwork. Together they delve into the feelings and thoughts of dread, exhaustion, urgency, and self-criticism that emerge in the evening when David is done with work for the day but procrastinates before starting his schoolwork. They also touch on the concept of misattribution of arousal and the fear of financial decline due to academic challenges. The themes of energy, capacity, and comparison with peers emerge as central to the automatic thoughts.
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The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:26):
Hi, welcome, David.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
i'm doing okay i'm doing okay
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
oh that's good folks i'm welcoming david to this
podcast david is somebody i metin 2009 which is i don't know 15
16 years ago we were bothworking in the hiv sector i
think we were doing similar worklike anti-homophobia work hiv
prevention work We work fordifferent organizations, but
(00:52):
we're doing some collaborationtogether.
And since then, we've just beenweaving in and out of each
other's lives in this world ofsocial service work or social
work and therapy, working withqueer guys and other
marginalized folks.
He's liked to talk about bigissues and really explore them
(01:15):
with his nearest and dearest.
David, is there anything elseyou'd like to add?
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
No, I thought it was a decent summary.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
All right.
So David, what do you know aboutcognitive behavioral therapy and
have you ever tried it before?
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
Yeah.
So I'm familiar with CBT, boththrough school and like my
earliest memory was when I wasan adolescent and it was a
family therapist that I wasworking with used it on used the
modality with me.
Yeah, so fairly familiar, butit's been a while since I've
(01:54):
been on this side of theprocess.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Yeah, because you're so used to helping other people.
All right, so David.
Before today, we talked aboutwhat we might analyze, what we
might spend some time talkingabout.
And one of the things youstruggle with is
procrastinating.
And I don't know that it's justwith schoolwork, but you're a
(02:17):
lifelong learner and you'reoften in and out of different
programs.
And so you decided to talk aboutprocrastinating.
procrastinating on schoolwork.
Now I want you to give me a bitmore information about the
situation.
So think about a particular timeyou procrastinated.
And I'm curious about the timeof day and day of the week.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
So I tend to have school alongside work.
So work is also present.
And so it's about segmenting outportions of my day to attend to
assignments and readings.
I usually carve out the laterhalf of my day to school-related
(02:58):
tasks.
And I find that once the workdayis sort of done, I have other
tasks that need to get done.
And I find myself sort ofpushing further and further.
You know, there's a deferralprocess that happens.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
So you work.
and then you're like, I'm gonnado school in the latter part of
the day.
But if you're working till 4.30,I'm gonna say you're attempting
it at five, at the earliest.
I'm curious about the timebetween work and school.
Has it ever been successful thatyou're able to sit down and get
started on the next thing?
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
Yeah, I don't know if it's ever been.
Not like this.
But I feel like as I've gottenolder, the ability to transition
from one task to another getsharder for me.
and and so yeah i i've i'mdiscovering more and more a
difficulty in in managingmultiple expectations at once in
(04:01):
my in mind and then having areal poor sense of time and then
time management
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
it's overwhelming so here's what i've got david so
our situation is that it's notLike procrastination is the
behavior that tends to emerge,but it's also a label you've
given something you do.
So I'm just, I'm going to putthat in the behavior column
because the situation seems tobe about transitioning between
(04:29):
work, like paid work andschoolwork.
It's in the evening or afternoonand it's where your time is less
structured.
I'm going to call it flexibletime.
That's a bit harder to manage.
Okay.
Is that accurate so far?
Yeah.
Okay, so it's transitioning, andthe most specific is when
(04:50):
you're...
If I were to make that even morespecific, it's like, I'm about
to start the schoolwork.
UNKNOWN (05:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (05:01):
Right.
And I'm curious to know whatfeelings come up for you when
you're about to start theschoolwork.
It's about 5 p.m.
You're transitioning between...
You're in the transitioningheadspace.
What feelings are you having?
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
Dread.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
Yeah.
That's fair.
Yeah.
What else?
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Exhaustion in advance, maybe.
Yeah.
Um...
so like not so much a feeling,but an experience of like
frazzled or yeah, like a senseof like where to begin.
And so because of that feeling,then I will default to more
(05:49):
like, oh, got to walk the dogs.
Yep, I should walk the dogs.
You know what I need to do?
Wash the dishes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
So there's, an urgency about other tasks
SPEAKER_02 (06:01):
yeah often i am able usually to to get myself into
the kind of headspace that thatcan sort of uh tamp down into
whatever it is that i'm doingbut i find that then that that
energy tapers
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
As the day continues and as the day continues and
you're on your second or thirdZoom meeting or sending off your
1500 email or your team goingoff and there's something that
you forgot or whatever.
Yeah, that kind of reserve, thatinner reserve sort of...
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
It's depleted.
SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
Depletes, yeah.
Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
so we've got exhaustion.
I'll put...
depleted as well are therefeelings of like um discouraged
like feeling discouraged orfeeling self-critical in these
in this moment where you'rewhere you're about to start the
school work
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
there's a standard in my head of how things should
be and how i should be and andsome of that draws from how i
might have once been and so yeahsome there's a lot of like inner
like frustration Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
and you were about to say inner, is it critic?
SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
Yeah, like this inner...
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
Can I say critical?
Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
For sure.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
David, this is a good amount of feelings.
There might be more there.
Like, I imagine overwhelm oranxiety are also present.
For
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
sure.
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Okay.
But...
I think we're going to shiftaway from creating more
feelings.
So this is a good list.
And I want you to think aboutthis moment at 5 p.m.
You're about to shift.
You're about to start theschoolwork.
Tell me on a scale of 1 to 10,how intensely you feel each of
(07:59):
these things.
So dread.
Seven.
All right.
And what about exhaustion?
Eight.
Depleted.
Eight.
Frazzled.
Six.
(08:20):
Urgency.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Six, seven.
How
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
about uncertainty?
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Yeah, eight.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
So, the feelings we've identified are dread,
exhaustion, depleted, frazzled,urgency, uncertainty,
frustration, critical, andoverwhelm.
Now, I'm trying to, what I wantto do is connect some of these
feelings to thoughts.
(08:50):
So, for example, when you feeldread, what are you thinking?
What's going on in your mind?
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
More.
Maybe more than I can handle ormore than I, like, I don't know
if I have enough in me forwhat's needed out of me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
So this is more than I can handle.
How about when you think aboutthe frazzled?
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
Yeah, sometimes I just find myself just, and even
if you were to see my desk rightnow, just papers and pens and
notebooks and yeah, where tobegin, you know?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:36):
So I don't know where to begin.
Fair.
And then you get this urgency todo other things where you get
sucked into other tasks.
What's the thought processthere?
SPEAKER_02 (09:46):
I'd be able to think better if I tidied the kitchen
and my office.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Yeah, I can totally appreciate that.
And then we move over to likefrustration and being
self-critical.
Tell me about those thoughts.
What's coming up for you there?
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
Oh, my God.
An hour and a half has gone by.
I've read one article.
I've written three lines.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Okay.
And then what does the overwhelmand the anxiety tell you?
SPEAKER_02 (10:25):
Danger.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Danger.
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Danger.
Yeah.
Say more.
You're running out of hours.
The day's almost done.
You're...
Your inner reserve is reallylike, you're not going to make
it to.
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
Okay.
Now I'm going to go back to thebehavior column for a moment.
As a result of this, I'mwondering if you actually, do
you end up staying up later byany chance than you intended?
Often.
Okay.
I'm saying that because I'mgetting the picture of like,
(11:03):
like revenge, procrastination,bedtime.
Have you heard that phrasebefore?
SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
Not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
No, it's when you feel like your time has been all
spoken for and you feelresentful and you want revenge.
And so you stay up later to havethe me time.
So I'm seeing a bit of thatmaybe play out.
(11:31):
Do you still reserve some timefor you at the end of this long
day?
SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
Honestly, the imagery that comes to mind is
like, even I have one of thosespecial chairs, I feel like
spinning.
So when I hear that, I'm like,okay, well, maybe that means I
shluff off all the work and goand, I don't know, do something
interesting.
(11:56):
I don't.
The extra time is spent thinkingabout the things that need to
get done.
planning for the planning forthe planning for the doing.
And
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
then you're like...
Do you spend time planning forthe doing?
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Or is that like an idea that gets tossed out?
I say planning.
Maybe that's a lie.
I feel like it's...
I say it's planning, but it'sactually just like ruminating
and worrying.
Ah, okay.
Planning would mean that there'sa structure.
That it's like, okay, well, thisis what we're going to do and
this is what we're going to doand this is what we're going to
do.
Rather than...
Yeah, the worry and the...
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
So there's a part of you here that's like thinking
about creating a plan for tasks,and it turns into rumination.
And the reason I asked about ifyou have some me time at the end
of the night is because I'mwondering if there's a resentful
part of you that has a clearthought that's like, I deserve
(12:59):
me time, or...
I put too much on myself orsomething like that.
Or I wish I had something.
Are any of those kinds ofthoughts resonating with you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Like, yeah, it's now 10 o'clock.
And I'm like, I have to walk thedogs.
I, you know, really should getto sleep because I start my day,
I wake up fairly early.
But I'm like, but you didn'treally get as much done as you
needed to get done.
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
my God, what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
spiral and then you know what i'll do i'm just gonna
lay here for 30 minutes stare atthe ceiling and 30 minutes
becomes 45 okay so
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
something's wrong with me for not getting things
done now here's another questionum about that's going to help me
understand the quality of youranxiety are you also do you also
have thoughts related to yourability to get the tasks done?
Because so far we're talkingabout energy and planning, but
(14:04):
is there something about thetask itself that's hard?
Like maybe you think thisproject is too difficult, or I'm
not sure what I want to say, orI have a lot to say, I'm not
sure how it's going to pan out,something
SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
like that.
Oh, things for sure.
Help
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
me narrow it down so it's in your words.
SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
maybe it's not an absence of energy or time or
focus.
Maybe it's an absence ofcapability, right?
So then it becomes less about,there's one thing where it's a
critique of like, okay, I've notdone enough.
I've not had enough time.
I've not used my time wisely,which are all valid observations
(14:48):
and critiques.
And then it becomes, well, maybeI'm just, God, like, you know,
maybe it's just two brain cellsrubbing together.
Maybe it's a me thing, you know,like, and then it becomes, you
know, maybe I'm just a littleslow, you know?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
So I've written it out as, I might be hiding behind
tiredness, but really I'm notcapable of the academic work.
Right.
Okay.
So here are our automaticthoughts so far.
This is more than I can handle.
I don't know where to begin.
I'm going to put those twocloser together.
I'll be able to think better ifI tidy things up first.
(15:24):
Time is going by quickly.
I'm not getting enough done.
Danger, you're running out oftime and you're not going to
make it.
This seems really similar to theone above, so I'm just going to
remove it.
But I hear you.
It's like a danger signal inyour brain.
And maybe image, I'm spinning.
(15:46):
Something's wrong with me fornot getting things done, and I
might be hiding behindtiredness, but really, I'm not
capable of the academic work.
Okay, this is a good set ofautomatic thoughts.
Of course, none of them helpful,right?
Because that's what keeps youstuck.
I want to make a couple commentson them, and then I'm going to
(16:07):
ask you some follow-upquestions, okay?
So, one is, is I want to talkabout I'll be able to think
better if I tidy things upfirst.
So have you heard of the phrasemisattribution of arousal?
SPEAKER_01 (16:26):
I
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
have.
You have?
I
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
have.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
So for our listeners, because I think this
could be a fun teachable moment,when you have a lot of energy
that's built up, that'sdedicated for one task, And then
you sit down to do it, and allof a sudden, that urgency gets
transferred or attributed tosomething else.
We call that a misattribution ofarousal.
(16:52):
When I teach students about thatconcept, the classic example I
use is one of Sex and the City.
Did you ever watch that show,David?
SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
I did,
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
actually.
You did.
So there's this funny momentwhere Charlotte is crossing the
street, and she falls, right?
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
And then somebody's in a cab and they slam on the
brakes and out comes Trey,right?
So she looks at him andimmediately she's like, that's
the man for me.
Now, one, she's a hopelessromantic, so of course she
thinks that, but we can applythis theory to her as well,
(17:28):
right?
There's an arousal around thedanger situation and it gets
misattributed as love.
SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
And then it gets misattributed as something else.
So how is this relevant to you?
Well, this might end up beingsomething we try to combat later
in our alternative thought.
So we might say like a tidyapartment is good for a thinking
space, but not necessary fortoday.
(18:30):
So we'll come back to that.
And I wanted to mention itbecause I think we might need
something to combatmisattribution of arousal
because it's common for somepeople.
Does that make sense?
Okay.
Any questions about thatconcept?
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
Yeah.
So the activation that I'mfeeling around the outstanding
work to be done, I...
begin to then attribute that orplace that energy onto other
sorts of things like, ugh, thisplace is a mess or, you know, if
(19:07):
only I could deal with that,then okay.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
Yes, that's exactly it.
And so people ask, well, what doI do about that?
Do I just not do it?
Well, we need to reduce thelevel of arousal.
The arousal is really highbecause you've probably slated
yourself to do too much in thatevening.
Mm-hmm.
So the arousal comes down if wesay, I only need to do a
(19:31):
specific thing or two today.
And then you're less likely tohave to misattribute it or shift
the urgency onto something else.
Okay, I'm going to ask you somefollow-up questions with the
automatic thoughts because Iwant to get a better sense of
them or what they mean.
And so when you say somethinglike, I'm going to start at the
(19:53):
bottom of this list.
I might be hiding behind mytiredness, but really, I'm not
capable of the academic work.
Right.
David, it's a harsh criticism ofyourself, but if you're not,
let's say that's true.
You're not capable of theacademic work.
What does that say about you asa person, as a professional?
(20:19):
Failure.
I'm a failure.
Yes.
And in this context, what willthe consequence be?
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
Not being able to complete my studies.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
And then what happens?
SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
Not being able to continue in my profession.
And...
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah.
So when you say I am a failure,I can see how that comes up.
I didn't write that down, butthat's because that falls...
If later on we wanted to extractsome of your core beliefs after
doing several thought records,that might be one of the ones
that you lean into or thatyou've developed over time.
(21:10):
But when we think about what'sspecific for the situation,
you're actually thinking, okay,failure, but what does that
mean?
What's the consequence?
Oh, failure.
I'm not able to continue in myprofession.
And so if you can't continue inyour profession, what do you
worry will happen?
Money-wise, job-wise?
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
Yeah.
Becoming...
poor and losing my ability tocare for myself and to meet my
needs and to feed, clothe, andshelter myself.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
So I'll be poor and won't be self-sufficient.
Is poverty something you'veexperienced in the past?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So I'm going to say in brackets,I'll be poor.
again because there's i thinkthere's a clear picture in your
mind about what you don't wantto go back to okay now that's a
(22:26):
pretty big consequence andthat's a lot of weight that's a
big thing to carry how are youfeeling just having shared that
with me
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
um i feel a little exposed Not that it's a thought
that I haven't expressed tomyself or to those in my life,
but it's interesting to hear itsaid to you.
So even when you sort of outlaidthe succession of events that
(23:01):
this particular line of thoughtbrings about, like hearing you
say it to me, rather than mesaying it and intellectualizing
it, there was an embodiedexperience that I...
I was like, oh.
And it sort of expressed itselfin sort of that anxious
laughter, you
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
know?
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yeah.
Poverty.
Failure.
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Look, we got there quite, rather quickly.
And so it tells me that it'ssomething that you, it might be
quite central in your life, I'mnot sure.
Because when I think about thisis more than I can handle, I
don't know where to begin.
And then time's going byquickly.
I'm not getting enough done.
Something's wrong with me fornot getting things done.
(23:48):
All of those things, theyactually sound quite similar.
Right?
So if I said to you, David, whatis the consequence if
something's wrong with you?
You might actually end up at asimilar place.
You might say, oh, okay, thenit's going to be about
profession.
And then what's wrong if youdon't finish this degree?
(24:09):
Oh, I'll be poor and I won't beself-sufficient.
Now, I do want to consider if itcould also go in another
direction, right?
So when you say something'swrong with me for not getting
things done, I do wonder if Ithink about the people in your
(24:30):
life.
So your peers or classmates,maybe your coworkers or friends.
Is there like a measuring stickor people you compare yourself
to who are doing the thingsyou're doing and able to get it
done?
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
You.
Well, I say that, yeah, a lot ofthe people that I'm in relation
with, proximity to, seem tohave, seem to have mastered the
(25:04):
ability to keep all the balls inthe air.
And I also feel that themeasuring stick is not only on
and for, you know, folks likeyourself and others that I'm
connected to, but also to anearlier version of myself.
I feel maybe that's inaccurate,but there's a feeling that I
(25:26):
once was able to manage more andthat I'm not as able as I get
older and now.
And maybe there's thisconnection for me around the
like running out of time, like,you know, just not enough time
to be tripping here.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Okay.
Thank you for that.
So each of those thoughts thatyou gave are useful, and I think
we can go in a couple ofdirections here.
So the last thing that you said,I used to be able to manage
more.
I'm wondering if for you thereis another thought related to
(26:09):
that that, like, I'm losing myskills or they're going to
continue to erode in some way.
I
SPEAKER_02 (26:15):
don't know if the feeling is the losing of skill
as much as it's the losing ofenergy, of overall capacity,
which is not so much the skill.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Okay.
Now, I'm not like people I knowwho seem very productive.
And you said, you, that's me.
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
And so many others.
SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
yes, there are.
It's, God, I really used to beable to do more and manage more
and hold more and complete more.
And now there's not that samereserve of energy and capacity.
And here are a fleet ofcolleagues in this space whose
(27:03):
pace has not, like, falteredright like my pace is faltering
as time has gone on i'm slowerat this than i was i'm i get i
get tired by eight o'clock i'mready for a nap by nine and
folks that i've known and who docomparable work are endless in
their in their inner resource
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
okay this is interesting because we've got
directions that we can go in.
One is about my energy andcapacity has changed over time,
which doesn't seem to be truefor my peers.
And part of that might befactual, and the other part is
comparative.
(27:45):
The second other thought that'squite prominent is, you know, I
could be poor again and I won'tbe self-sufficient.
So my question for you, David,is when you sit down and you're
about to start your schoolwork,you're transitioning between
work and school.
It's about 5 p.m.
You've got so much ahead of you.
You've just had a full day.
(28:08):
And I'm curious to know which ofthese thoughts is the most
prominent.
We're trying to identify yourhot thought.
So what's driving the feelingsmore?
Is it about my energy andcapacity has changed over time,
which doesn't seem to be truefor my peers?
Or if I can't do this, I'll bepoor again and won't be
self-sufficient?
SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
I'll be poor.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
So that's the one we're going to look at.
For this other one, I'm going toput it in italics because when
we come to the alternativethought column, I still want us
to come up with an alternativethought for it, but we're not
going to evaluate it the sameway we're going to evaluate the
hot thought.
Does that make sense?
Okay.
So the next column is aboutevaluating this, or the next two
(28:51):
columns are about evaluatingthis.
So what is evidence thatsupports this idea that you
could be poor again and youwon't be self-sufficient, right?
This came from somewhere.
Maybe you've already seen adecline in your disposable
income as a result of I don'tknow, not being able to work as
(29:11):
much or while you've been inschool.
Or maybe you've had periods inyour life where finishing school
or the credential held you backand you were like, oh, I
couldn't get the high payingjob.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
My first go around grad school years ago and trying
to juggle work, school, home,partner projects and things
getting really tight and I hadto pull back on work.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Ah,
SPEAKER_02 (29:43):
okay.
I had to pull back on work and Iwasn't bringing in as much funds
and I had to put up my home forrent and I significantly
downsized, lived in a commune orwhatever.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Yeah, okay, okay.
So I'm going to write here, pastexperience with graduate school,
finances got really tight and Ilost some quality of life.
Okay, yeah, that, David, thatalone is quite significant.
And I can appreciate a fear ofhaving to experience this kind
of decline again.
Are there other pieces ofevidence from your life where
(30:23):
the reality of being poor againor not being as self-sufficient
showed up for you?
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
Yeah, there was an experience, you know, I ended up
moving away and I lived abroad.
And then I came home due to somefamily issues related stuff and
because I had to leave my workand my home and everything in
England and I came home and Ihad to take care of family stuff
(30:53):
but I wasn't I quickly ran outof my savings and my whatever
and was essentially homeless Youknow, what do they call it?
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Secondary homelessness.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Is that what it's called?
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, like you were couch surfing.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
Couch surfing, where you're like, you know.
And yeah, it was a really aninteresting, less than a year,
but an interesting number ofmonths.
And I was like,
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
wow.
David, not interesting,traumatic.
SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
Let me self-soothe, and let's call it interesting
for now.
But no, it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
I'm just saying it's big, right?
And I can see why this automaticthought gets activated for you,
because you've been there.
So let's move over to the nextcolumn, which is evidence that
does not support your hotthought.
What's some evidence that maybesuggests that...
you have more stability than yougive yourself credit for or that
you can bounce back fromdifficult experiences or that
(31:59):
your future does look brightfinancially or does look good
financially.
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
Like I've always, there's a resourcefulness.
I've always been able to find myfeet in some way.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
What about your employability?
Do you feel like you'reemployable?
SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Okay.
So I'm gonna put that down asevidence if that's okay?
Sure.
Any other evidence that suggeststhat you won't be poor or that
evidence that suggests you couldbe self-sufficient?
SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
Yeah, when I had no letters after my name, I was
employable.
When I had a few, I wasemployable.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
So I'm jumping over to the next column, which is
alternative thoughts, right?
Which is my skills andemployability are not
necessarily marked by academicachievement.
(33:03):
I can get a job anyway.
We jumped to this column a bitquickly, so I'm just gonna back
up for a sec.
The alternative thought is athought that takes the evidence
that we have into account andspeaks directly to your
automatic thought, or in yourcase, your automatic thoughts.
So this is something that wehope you could tell yourself to
(33:27):
reduce the arousal, to reducethe anxiety.
So, I'll be poor again and won'tbe self-sufficient.
What would you say that directlycounters that or speaks to that?
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
I'm not my education.
I'm not this degree.
I...
I have skills and utility beyondthis experience or this.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
I want to affirm, I guess, yeah, I want to affirm
the things that are outside ofmy control and then also
acknowledge the things that are.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
So which part is outside of your control?
SPEAKER_02 (34:11):
The unsurety, insecurity, all those things
that I can't.
determined, right?
But I can do the things I needto do now and acknowledge that
right now I am well, I'mcapable.
SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Okay.
Now I'm going to, we've been,we've got some good statements
that counter your hot thought.
I want to take a moment to seeif we can come up with one
alternative thought to thestatement, my energy and
capacity have changed over time,which doesn't seem to be true
for my peers.
SPEAKER_02 (34:46):
It is true.
This is the
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
thing.
So let's have a shortconversation about this.
Because we've known each otherfor a long time.
And you named me as one of thepeople.
I'm also struggling with thesame thing, actually.
I haven't been comparing myselfto other people like, oh, their
energy hasn't depleted, but Ihave my energy and capacity has
(35:12):
changed significantly over time.
So I go to bed early.
I love to have fun and I haven'tbeen having as much fun and I'm
grieving that part of myself.
I used to love to go on datesand meet guys and Romance and
dating and even casual sex wasimportant to me.
And I can't seem to find space,energy or time for it.
(35:39):
And the energy of beingseductive, being charming, and
then also being rejected issomething I have avoided.
in a huge way.
And so the energy I do have hasgone toward work.
(35:59):
But I don't know if that helpsyou in any way to know that
about me.
There was a phrase that I saw onsocial media that I thought was
helpful, which said, don'tcompare your behind the scenes
to somebody else's Highlightreels.
(36:20):
Highlight reels, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (36:22):
I very much internalize it.
It's almost, it's not, it'smore, David, what happened?
You know, what happened?
You can't stay up past nineo'clock.
What's wrong with you?
You know, why can't you focus inthe way that you used to?
And so I just wanted to saythat.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you did because I think, I think
an alternative thought emergesfrom that, which is that my
energy and capacity have changedover time.
And that means I need toschedule less.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
All of our energies are depleting and do less.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
Okay, so everyone's energy is limited.
Thank you.
I can optimize mine bycommitting to fewer things.
Yes.
David, I'm going to read youralternative thoughts out.
(37:34):
I want you to really think aboutthem as I read them and think
about how you feel in your body.
So my skills and employabilityare not necessarily marked by
academic achievement.
I'm in school to get better atwhat I'm already doing.
I have skills and utility beyondthis academic credential.
I can't determine or predictinstability for the future, but
(37:54):
I can take care of myself now.
Everyone's energy is limited.
I can optimize mine bycommitting to fewer things.
Which of these do you reallylove that really speak to you
that you believe in?
SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Usefulness is a purpose.
And so I feel more resonant withthe third.
Yeah.
And then be the last.
This optimizing energy.
SPEAKER_00 (38:23):
All right.
I'm gonna write out some of thefeelings you had listed before,
and we're gonna re-rate them.
So when you think about thesetwo thoughts, I have skills and
utility beyond this academiccredential, and everyone's
energy is limited.
I can optimize mine bycommitting to fewer things.
Where's your dread on a scale ofone to 10?
(38:43):
Five.
And exhaustion?
Five, six.
Okay, and depleted?
Six.
Frazzled.
Six.
Urgency.
Five.
(39:03):
Uncertainty.
Six.
Frustration.
Four.
Critic.
Six.
Overwhelm.
Six.
Anxiety.
Six.
(39:24):
Any new feelings coming up?
SPEAKER_02 (39:27):
Determination.
Yeah.
Excitement.
Look at you.
Get out of my head, Rahim.
No wonder you're good at this.
SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
A lot of your scores went down.
A little bit.
Not a ton, but a little bit.
And this is the first steptoward a longer-term change.
Right?
you are in a circumstance thatmight be setting you up for
(39:59):
failure.
Right?
Because if we're saying I'mgoing to optimize my energy by
committing to fewer things, thatmeans that in this moment, while
you're still in this program,you're overcommitted.
When you say this is more than Ican handle, in some ways it's
true.
(40:20):
But not because I'm notbrilliant, because you are.
it's because I bit off more thanI could chew.
Right.
So I think we're thinking it'sgoing to be a rough go for a
little bit, but in the future weneed to be mindful of how much
you sign up for and how yourecalibrate yourself,
(40:43):
acknowledging that there'slimited energy.
David, how was this process foryou?
It
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
was good.
It was, uh, It was uncomfortablein the earlier parts of this.
Sure.
But definitely it feels alittle, yeah, a little better.
SPEAKER_00 (41:10):
David, we're going to leave it there.
I want to thank you so much forbeing a guest on the CBT Dive.
This was great.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, David.
And that's the CBT Dive fortoday.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
(41:34):
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:26):
Hi, welcome, David.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
i'm doing okay i'm doing okay
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
oh that's good folks i'm welcoming david to this
podcast david is somebody i metin 2009 which is i don't know 15
16 years ago we were bothworking in the hiv sector i
think we were doing similar worklike anti-homophobia work hiv
prevention work We work fordifferent organizations, but
(00:52):
we're doing some collaborationtogether.
And since then, we've just beenweaving in and out of each
other's lives in this world ofsocial service work or social
work and therapy, working withqueer guys and other
marginalized folks.
He's liked to talk about bigissues and really explore them
(01:15):
with his nearest and dearest.
David, is there anything elseyou'd like to add?
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
No, I thought it was a decent summary.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
All right.
So David, what do you know aboutcognitive behavioral therapy and
have you ever tried it before?
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
Yeah.
So I'm familiar with CBT, boththrough school and like my
earliest memory was when I wasan adolescent and it was a
family therapist that I wasworking with used it on used the
modality with me.
Yeah, so fairly familiar, butit's been a while since I've
(01:54):
been on this side of theprocess.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Yeah, because you're so used to helping other people.
All right, so David.
Before today, we talked aboutwhat we might analyze, what we
might spend some time talkingabout.
And one of the things youstruggle with is
procrastinating.
And I don't know that it's justwith schoolwork, but you're a
(02:17):
lifelong learner and you'reoften in and out of different
programs.
And so you decided to talk aboutprocrastinating.
procrastinating on schoolwork.
Now I want you to give me a bitmore information about the
situation.
So think about a particular timeyou procrastinated.
And I'm curious about the timeof day and day of the week.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
So I tend to have school alongside work.
So work is also present.
And so it's about segmenting outportions of my day to attend to
assignments and readings.
I usually carve out the laterhalf of my day to school-related
(02:58):
tasks.
And I find that once the workdayis sort of done, I have other
tasks that need to get done.
And I find myself sort ofpushing further and further.
You know, there's a deferralprocess that happens.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
So you work.
and then you're like, I'm gonnado school in the latter part of
the day.
But if you're working till 4.30,I'm gonna say you're attempting
it at five, at the earliest.
I'm curious about the timebetween work and school.
Has it ever been successful thatyou're able to sit down and get
started on the next thing?
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
Yeah, I don't know if it's ever been.
Not like this.
But I feel like as I've gottenolder, the ability to transition
from one task to another getsharder for me.
and and so yeah i i've i'mdiscovering more and more a
difficulty in in managingmultiple expectations at once in
(04:01):
my in mind and then having areal poor sense of time and then
time management
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
it's overwhelming so here's what i've got david so
our situation is that it's notLike procrastination is the
behavior that tends to emerge,but it's also a label you've
given something you do.
So I'm just, I'm going to putthat in the behavior column
because the situation seems tobe about transitioning between
(04:29):
work, like paid work andschoolwork.
It's in the evening or afternoonand it's where your time is less
structured.
I'm going to call it flexibletime.
That's a bit harder to manage.
Okay.
Is that accurate so far?
Yeah.
Okay, so it's transitioning, andthe most specific is when
(04:50):
you're...
If I were to make that even morespecific, it's like, I'm about
to start the schoolwork.
UNKNOWN (05:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (05:01):
Right.
And I'm curious to know whatfeelings come up for you when
you're about to start theschoolwork.
It's about 5 p.m.
You're transitioning between...
You're in the transitioningheadspace.
What feelings are you having?
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
Dread.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
Yeah.
That's fair.
Yeah.
What else?
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Exhaustion in advance, maybe.
Yeah.
Um...
so like not so much a feeling,but an experience of like
frazzled or yeah, like a senseof like where to begin.
And so because of that feeling,then I will default to more
(05:49):
like, oh, got to walk the dogs.
Yep, I should walk the dogs.
You know what I need to do?
Wash the dishes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
So there's, an urgency about other tasks
SPEAKER_02 (06:01):
yeah often i am able usually to to get myself into
the kind of headspace that thatcan sort of uh tamp down into
whatever it is that i'm doingbut i find that then that that
energy tapers
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
As the day continues and as the day continues and
you're on your second or thirdZoom meeting or sending off your
1500 email or your team goingoff and there's something that
you forgot or whatever.
Yeah, that kind of reserve, thatinner reserve sort of...
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
It's depleted.
SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
Depletes, yeah.
Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
so we've got exhaustion.
I'll put...
depleted as well are therefeelings of like um discouraged
like feeling discouraged orfeeling self-critical in these
in this moment where you'rewhere you're about to start the
school work
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
there's a standard in my head of how things should
be and how i should be and andsome of that draws from how i
might have once been and so yeahsome there's a lot of like inner
like frustration Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
and you were about to say inner, is it critic?
SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
Yeah, like this inner...
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
Can I say critical?
Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
For sure.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
David, this is a good amount of feelings.
There might be more there.
Like, I imagine overwhelm oranxiety are also present.
For
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
sure.
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Okay.
But...
I think we're going to shiftaway from creating more
feelings.
So this is a good list.
And I want you to think aboutthis moment at 5 p.m.
You're about to shift.
You're about to start theschoolwork.
Tell me on a scale of 1 to 10,how intensely you feel each of
(07:59):
these things.
So dread.
Seven.
All right.
And what about exhaustion?
Eight.
Depleted.
Eight.
Frazzled.
Six.
(08:20):
Urgency.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Six, seven.
How
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
about uncertainty?
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Yeah, eight.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
So, the feelings we've identified are dread,
exhaustion, depleted, frazzled,urgency, uncertainty,
frustration, critical, andoverwhelm.
Now, I'm trying to, what I wantto do is connect some of these
feelings to thoughts.
(08:50):
So, for example, when you feeldread, what are you thinking?
What's going on in your mind?
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
More.
Maybe more than I can handle ormore than I, like, I don't know
if I have enough in me forwhat's needed out of me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
So this is more than I can handle.
How about when you think aboutthe frazzled?
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
Yeah, sometimes I just find myself just, and even
if you were to see my desk rightnow, just papers and pens and
notebooks and yeah, where tobegin, you know?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:36):
So I don't know where to begin.
Fair.
And then you get this urgency todo other things where you get
sucked into other tasks.
What's the thought processthere?
SPEAKER_02 (09:46):
I'd be able to think better if I tidied the kitchen
and my office.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Yeah, I can totally appreciate that.
And then we move over to likefrustration and being
self-critical.
Tell me about those thoughts.
What's coming up for you there?
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
Oh, my God.
An hour and a half has gone by.
I've read one article.
I've written three lines.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Okay.
And then what does the overwhelmand the anxiety tell you?
SPEAKER_02 (10:25):
Danger.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Danger.
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Danger.
Yeah.
Say more.
You're running out of hours.
The day's almost done.
You're...
Your inner reserve is reallylike, you're not going to make
it to.
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
Okay.
Now I'm going to go back to thebehavior column for a moment.
As a result of this, I'mwondering if you actually, do
you end up staying up later byany chance than you intended?
Often.
Okay.
I'm saying that because I'mgetting the picture of like,
(11:03):
like revenge, procrastination,bedtime.
Have you heard that phrasebefore?
SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
Not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
No, it's when you feel like your time has been all
spoken for and you feelresentful and you want revenge.
And so you stay up later to havethe me time.
So I'm seeing a bit of thatmaybe play out.
(11:31):
Do you still reserve some timefor you at the end of this long
day?
SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
Honestly, the imagery that comes to mind is
like, even I have one of thosespecial chairs, I feel like
spinning.
So when I hear that, I'm like,okay, well, maybe that means I
shluff off all the work and goand, I don't know, do something
interesting.
(11:56):
I don't.
The extra time is spent thinkingabout the things that need to
get done.
planning for the planning forthe planning for the doing.
And
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
then you're like...
Do you spend time planning forthe doing?
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Or is that like an idea that gets tossed out?
I say planning.
Maybe that's a lie.
I feel like it's...
I say it's planning, but it'sactually just like ruminating
and worrying.
Ah, okay.
Planning would mean that there'sa structure.
That it's like, okay, well, thisis what we're going to do and
this is what we're going to doand this is what we're going to
do.
Rather than...
Yeah, the worry and the...
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
So there's a part of you here that's like thinking
about creating a plan for tasks,and it turns into rumination.
And the reason I asked about ifyou have some me time at the end
of the night is because I'mwondering if there's a resentful
part of you that has a clearthought that's like, I deserve
(12:59):
me time, or...
I put too much on myself orsomething like that.
Or I wish I had something.
Are any of those kinds ofthoughts resonating with you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Like, yeah, it's now 10 o'clock.
And I'm like, I have to walk thedogs.
I, you know, really should getto sleep because I start my day,
I wake up fairly early.
But I'm like, but you didn'treally get as much done as you
needed to get done.
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
my God, what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
spiral and then you know what i'll do i'm just gonna
lay here for 30 minutes stare atthe ceiling and 30 minutes
becomes 45 okay so
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
something's wrong with me for not getting things
done now here's another questionum about that's going to help me
understand the quality of youranxiety are you also do you also
have thoughts related to yourability to get the tasks done?
Because so far we're talkingabout energy and planning, but
(14:04):
is there something about thetask itself that's hard?
Like maybe you think thisproject is too difficult, or I'm
not sure what I want to say, orI have a lot to say, I'm not
sure how it's going to pan out,something
SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
like that.
Oh, things for sure.
Help
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
me narrow it down so it's in your words.
SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
maybe it's not an absence of energy or time or
focus.
Maybe it's an absence ofcapability, right?
So then it becomes less about,there's one thing where it's a
critique of like, okay, I've notdone enough.
I've not had enough time.
I've not used my time wisely,which are all valid observations
(14:48):
and critiques.
And then it becomes, well, maybeI'm just, God, like, you know,
maybe it's just two brain cellsrubbing together.
Maybe it's a me thing, you know,like, and then it becomes, you
know, maybe I'm just a littleslow, you know?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
So I've written it out as, I might be hiding behind
tiredness, but really I'm notcapable of the academic work.
Right.
Okay.
So here are our automaticthoughts so far.
This is more than I can handle.
I don't know where to begin.
I'm going to put those twocloser together.
I'll be able to think better ifI tidy things up first.
(15:24):
Time is going by quickly.
I'm not getting enough done.
Danger, you're running out oftime and you're not going to
make it.
This seems really similar to theone above, so I'm just going to
remove it.
But I hear you.
It's like a danger signal inyour brain.
And maybe image, I'm spinning.
(15:46):
Something's wrong with me fornot getting things done, and I
might be hiding behindtiredness, but really, I'm not
capable of the academic work.
Okay, this is a good set ofautomatic thoughts.
Of course, none of them helpful,right?
Because that's what keeps youstuck.
I want to make a couple commentson them, and then I'm going to
(16:07):
ask you some follow-upquestions, okay?
So, one is, is I want to talkabout I'll be able to think
better if I tidy things upfirst.
So have you heard of the phrasemisattribution of arousal?
SPEAKER_01 (16:26):
I
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
have.
You have?
I
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
have.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
So for our listeners, because I think this
could be a fun teachable moment,when you have a lot of energy
that's built up, that'sdedicated for one task, And then
you sit down to do it, and allof a sudden, that urgency gets
transferred or attributed tosomething else.
We call that a misattribution ofarousal.
(16:52):
When I teach students about thatconcept, the classic example I
use is one of Sex and the City.
Did you ever watch that show,David?
SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
I did,
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
actually.
You did.
So there's this funny momentwhere Charlotte is crossing the
street, and she falls, right?
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
And then somebody's in a cab and they slam on the
brakes and out comes Trey,right?
So she looks at him andimmediately she's like, that's
the man for me.
Now, one, she's a hopelessromantic, so of course she
thinks that, but we can applythis theory to her as well,
(17:28):
right?
There's an arousal around thedanger situation and it gets
misattributed as love.
SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
And then it gets misattributed as something else.
So how is this relevant to you?
Well, this might end up beingsomething we try to combat later
in our alternative thought.
So we might say like a tidyapartment is good for a thinking
space, but not necessary fortoday.
(18:30):
So we'll come back to that.
And I wanted to mention itbecause I think we might need
something to combatmisattribution of arousal
because it's common for somepeople.
Does that make sense?
Okay.
Any questions about thatconcept?
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
Yeah.
So the activation that I'mfeeling around the outstanding
work to be done, I...
begin to then attribute that orplace that energy onto other
sorts of things like, ugh, thisplace is a mess or, you know, if
(19:07):
only I could deal with that,then okay.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
Yes, that's exactly it.
And so people ask, well, what doI do about that?
Do I just not do it?
Well, we need to reduce thelevel of arousal.
The arousal is really highbecause you've probably slated
yourself to do too much in thatevening.
Mm-hmm.
So the arousal comes down if wesay, I only need to do a
(19:31):
specific thing or two today.
And then you're less likely tohave to misattribute it or shift
the urgency onto something else.
Okay, I'm going to ask you somefollow-up questions with the
automatic thoughts because Iwant to get a better sense of
them or what they mean.
And so when you say somethinglike, I'm going to start at the
(19:53):
bottom of this list.
I might be hiding behind mytiredness, but really, I'm not
capable of the academic work.
Right.
David, it's a harsh criticism ofyourself, but if you're not,
let's say that's true.
You're not capable of theacademic work.
What does that say about you asa person, as a professional?
(20:19):
Failure.
I'm a failure.
Yes.
And in this context, what willthe consequence be?
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
Not being able to complete my studies.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
And then what happens?
SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
Not being able to continue in my profession.
And...
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah.
So when you say I am a failure,I can see how that comes up.
I didn't write that down, butthat's because that falls...
If later on we wanted to extractsome of your core beliefs after
doing several thought records,that might be one of the ones
that you lean into or thatyou've developed over time.
(21:10):
But when we think about what'sspecific for the situation,
you're actually thinking, okay,failure, but what does that
mean?
What's the consequence?
Oh, failure.
I'm not able to continue in myprofession.
And so if you can't continue inyour profession, what do you
worry will happen?
Money-wise, job-wise?
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
Yeah.
Becoming...
poor and losing my ability tocare for myself and to meet my
needs and to feed, clothe, andshelter myself.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
So I'll be poor and won't be self-sufficient.
Is poverty something you'veexperienced in the past?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So I'm going to say in brackets,I'll be poor.
again because there's i thinkthere's a clear picture in your
mind about what you don't wantto go back to okay now that's a
(22:26):
pretty big consequence andthat's a lot of weight that's a
big thing to carry how are youfeeling just having shared that
with me
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
um i feel a little exposed Not that it's a thought
that I haven't expressed tomyself or to those in my life,
but it's interesting to hear itsaid to you.
So even when you sort of outlaidthe succession of events that
(23:01):
this particular line of thoughtbrings about, like hearing you
say it to me, rather than mesaying it and intellectualizing
it, there was an embodiedexperience that I...
I was like, oh.
And it sort of expressed itselfin sort of that anxious
laughter, you
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
know?
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yeah.
Poverty.
Failure.
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Look, we got there quite, rather quickly.
And so it tells me that it'ssomething that you, it might be
quite central in your life, I'mnot sure.
Because when I think about thisis more than I can handle, I
don't know where to begin.
And then time's going byquickly.
I'm not getting enough done.
Something's wrong with me fornot getting things done.
(23:48):
All of those things, theyactually sound quite similar.
Right?
So if I said to you, David, whatis the consequence if
something's wrong with you?
You might actually end up at asimilar place.
You might say, oh, okay, thenit's going to be about
profession.
And then what's wrong if youdon't finish this degree?
(24:09):
Oh, I'll be poor and I won't beself-sufficient.
Now, I do want to consider if itcould also go in another
direction, right?
So when you say something'swrong with me for not getting
things done, I do wonder if Ithink about the people in your
(24:30):
life.
So your peers or classmates,maybe your coworkers or friends.
Is there like a measuring stickor people you compare yourself
to who are doing the thingsyou're doing and able to get it
done?
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
You.
Well, I say that, yeah, a lot ofthe people that I'm in relation
with, proximity to, seem tohave, seem to have mastered the
(25:04):
ability to keep all the balls inthe air.
And I also feel that themeasuring stick is not only on
and for, you know, folks likeyourself and others that I'm
connected to, but also to anearlier version of myself.
I feel maybe that's inaccurate,but there's a feeling that I
(25:26):
once was able to manage more andthat I'm not as able as I get
older and now.
And maybe there's thisconnection for me around the
like running out of time, like,you know, just not enough time
to be tripping here.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Okay.
Thank you for that.
So each of those thoughts thatyou gave are useful, and I think
we can go in a couple ofdirections here.
So the last thing that you said,I used to be able to manage
more.
I'm wondering if for you thereis another thought related to
(26:09):
that that, like, I'm losing myskills or they're going to
continue to erode in some way.
I
SPEAKER_02 (26:15):
don't know if the feeling is the losing of skill
as much as it's the losing ofenergy, of overall capacity,
which is not so much the skill.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Okay.
Now, I'm not like people I knowwho seem very productive.
And you said, you, that's me.
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
And so many others.
SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
yes, there are.
It's, God, I really used to beable to do more and manage more
and hold more and complete more.
And now there's not that samereserve of energy and capacity.
And here are a fleet ofcolleagues in this space whose
(27:03):
pace has not, like, falteredright like my pace is faltering
as time has gone on i'm slowerat this than i was i'm i get i
get tired by eight o'clock i'mready for a nap by nine and
folks that i've known and who docomparable work are endless in
their in their inner resource
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
okay this is interesting because we've got
directions that we can go in.
One is about my energy andcapacity has changed over time,
which doesn't seem to be truefor my peers.
And part of that might befactual, and the other part is
comparative.
(27:45):
The second other thought that'squite prominent is, you know, I
could be poor again and I won'tbe self-sufficient.
So my question for you, David,is when you sit down and you're
about to start your schoolwork,you're transitioning between
work and school.
It's about 5 p.m.
You've got so much ahead of you.
You've just had a full day.
(28:08):
And I'm curious to know which ofthese thoughts is the most
prominent.
We're trying to identify yourhot thought.
So what's driving the feelingsmore?
Is it about my energy andcapacity has changed over time,
which doesn't seem to be truefor my peers?
Or if I can't do this, I'll bepoor again and won't be
self-sufficient?
SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
I'll be poor.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
So that's the one we're going to look at.
For this other one, I'm going toput it in italics because when
we come to the alternativethought column, I still want us
to come up with an alternativethought for it, but we're not
going to evaluate it the sameway we're going to evaluate the
hot thought.
Does that make sense?
Okay.
So the next column is aboutevaluating this, or the next two
(28:51):
columns are about evaluatingthis.
So what is evidence thatsupports this idea that you
could be poor again and youwon't be self-sufficient, right?
This came from somewhere.
Maybe you've already seen adecline in your disposable
income as a result of I don'tknow, not being able to work as
(29:11):
much or while you've been inschool.
Or maybe you've had periods inyour life where finishing school
or the credential held you backand you were like, oh, I
couldn't get the high payingjob.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
My first go around grad school years ago and trying
to juggle work, school, home,partner projects and things
getting really tight and I hadto pull back on work.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Ah,
SPEAKER_02 (29:43):
okay.
I had to pull back on work and Iwasn't bringing in as much funds
and I had to put up my home forrent and I significantly
downsized, lived in a commune orwhatever.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Yeah, okay, okay.
So I'm going to write here, pastexperience with graduate school,
finances got really tight and Ilost some quality of life.
Okay, yeah, that, David, thatalone is quite significant.
And I can appreciate a fear ofhaving to experience this kind
of decline again.
Are there other pieces ofevidence from your life where
(30:23):
the reality of being poor againor not being as self-sufficient
showed up for you?
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
Yeah, there was an experience, you know, I ended up
moving away and I lived abroad.
And then I came home due to somefamily issues related stuff and
because I had to leave my workand my home and everything in
England and I came home and Ihad to take care of family stuff
(30:53):
but I wasn't I quickly ran outof my savings and my whatever
and was essentially homeless Youknow, what do they call it?
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Secondary homelessness.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Is that what it's called?
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, like you were couch surfing.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
Couch surfing, where you're like, you know.
And yeah, it was a really aninteresting, less than a year,
but an interesting number ofmonths.
And I was like,
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
wow.
David, not interesting,traumatic.
SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
Let me self-soothe, and let's call it interesting
for now.
But no, it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
I'm just saying it's big, right?
And I can see why this automaticthought gets activated for you,
because you've been there.
So let's move over to the nextcolumn, which is evidence that
does not support your hotthought.
What's some evidence that maybesuggests that...
you have more stability than yougive yourself credit for or that
you can bounce back fromdifficult experiences or that
(31:59):
your future does look brightfinancially or does look good
financially.
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
Like I've always, there's a resourcefulness.
I've always been able to find myfeet in some way.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
What about your employability?
Do you feel like you'reemployable?
SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Okay.
So I'm gonna put that down asevidence if that's okay?
Sure.
Any other evidence that suggeststhat you won't be poor or that
evidence that suggests you couldbe self-sufficient?
SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
Yeah, when I had no letters after my name, I was
employable.
When I had a few, I wasemployable.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
So I'm jumping over to the next column, which is
alternative thoughts, right?
Which is my skills andemployability are not
necessarily marked by academicachievement.
(33:03):
I can get a job anyway.
We jumped to this column a bitquickly, so I'm just gonna back
up for a sec.
The alternative thought is athought that takes the evidence
that we have into account andspeaks directly to your
automatic thought, or in yourcase, your automatic thoughts.
So this is something that wehope you could tell yourself to
(33:27):
reduce the arousal, to reducethe anxiety.
So, I'll be poor again and won'tbe self-sufficient.
What would you say that directlycounters that or speaks to that?
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
I'm not my education.
I'm not this degree.
I...
I have skills and utility beyondthis experience or this.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
I want to affirm, I guess, yeah, I want to affirm
the things that are outside ofmy control and then also
acknowledge the things that are.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
So which part is outside of your control?
SPEAKER_02 (34:11):
The unsurety, insecurity, all those things
that I can't.
determined, right?
But I can do the things I needto do now and acknowledge that
right now I am well, I'mcapable.
SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Okay.
Now I'm going to, we've been,we've got some good statements
that counter your hot thought.
I want to take a moment to seeif we can come up with one
alternative thought to thestatement, my energy and
capacity have changed over time,which doesn't seem to be true
for my peers.
SPEAKER_02 (34:46):
It is true.
This is the
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
thing.
So let's have a shortconversation about this.
Because we've known each otherfor a long time.
And you named me as one of thepeople.
I'm also struggling with thesame thing, actually.
I haven't been comparing myselfto other people like, oh, their
energy hasn't depleted, but Ihave my energy and capacity has
(35:12):
changed significantly over time.
So I go to bed early.
I love to have fun and I haven'tbeen having as much fun and I'm
grieving that part of myself.
I used to love to go on datesand meet guys and Romance and
dating and even casual sex wasimportant to me.
And I can't seem to find space,energy or time for it.
(35:39):
And the energy of beingseductive, being charming, and
then also being rejected issomething I have avoided.
in a huge way.
And so the energy I do have hasgone toward work.
(35:59):
But I don't know if that helpsyou in any way to know that
about me.
There was a phrase that I saw onsocial media that I thought was
helpful, which said, don'tcompare your behind the scenes
to somebody else's Highlightreels.
(36:20):
Highlight reels, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (36:22):
I very much internalize it.
It's almost, it's not, it'smore, David, what happened?
You know, what happened?
You can't stay up past nineo'clock.
What's wrong with you?
You know, why can't you focus inthe way that you used to?
And so I just wanted to saythat.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you did because I think, I think
an alternative thought emergesfrom that, which is that my
energy and capacity have changedover time.
And that means I need toschedule less.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
All of our energies are depleting and do less.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
Okay, so everyone's energy is limited.
Thank you.
I can optimize mine bycommitting to fewer things.
Yes.
David, I'm going to read youralternative thoughts out.
(37:34):
I want you to really think aboutthem as I read them and think
about how you feel in your body.
So my skills and employabilityare not necessarily marked by
academic achievement.
I'm in school to get better atwhat I'm already doing.
I have skills and utility beyondthis academic credential.
I can't determine or predictinstability for the future, but
(37:54):
I can take care of myself now.
Everyone's energy is limited.
I can optimize mine bycommitting to fewer things.
Which of these do you reallylove that really speak to you
that you believe in?
SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Usefulness is a purpose.
And so I feel more resonant withthe third.
Yeah.
And then be the last.
This optimizing energy.
SPEAKER_00 (38:23):
All right.
I'm gonna write out some of thefeelings you had listed before,
and we're gonna re-rate them.
So when you think about thesetwo thoughts, I have skills and
utility beyond this academiccredential, and everyone's
energy is limited.
I can optimize mine bycommitting to fewer things.
Where's your dread on a scale ofone to 10?
(38:43):
Five.
And exhaustion?
Five, six.
Okay, and depleted?
Six.
Frazzled.
Six.
Urgency.
Five.
(39:03):
Uncertainty.
Six.
Frustration.
Four.
Critic.
Six.
Overwhelm.
Six.
Anxiety.
Six.
(39:24):
Any new feelings coming up?
SPEAKER_02 (39:27):
Determination.
Yeah.
Excitement.
Look at you.
Get out of my head, Rahim.
No wonder you're good at this.
SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
A lot of your scores went down.
A little bit.
Not a ton, but a little bit.
And this is the first steptoward a longer-term change.
Right?
you are in a circumstance thatmight be setting you up for
(39:59):
failure.
Right?
Because if we're saying I'mgoing to optimize my energy by
committing to fewer things, thatmeans that in this moment, while
you're still in this program,you're overcommitted.
When you say this is more than Ican handle, in some ways it's
true.
(40:20):
But not because I'm notbrilliant, because you are.
it's because I bit off more thanI could chew.
Right.
So I think we're thinking it'sgoing to be a rough go for a
little bit, but in the future weneed to be mindful of how much
you sign up for and how yourecalibrate yourself,
(40:43):
acknowledging that there'slimited energy.
David, how was this process foryou?
It
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
was good.
It was, uh, It was uncomfortablein the earlier parts of this.
Sure.
But definitely it feels alittle, yeah, a little better.
SPEAKER_00 (41:10):
David, we're going to leave it there.
I want to thank you so much forbeing a guest on the CBT Dive.
This was great.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, David.
And that's the CBT Dive fortoday.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
(41:34):
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
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