April 29, 2024 • 31 mins
In this conversation, psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawer is joined by José, a psychologist and poet who lives with their partner. José shares their experience as the anchor partner in a polyamorous relationship and they explore the feelings and behaviors that arise in certain situations, such as when their partner shows affection to another partner but not them. Rahim guides Jose through examining the automatic thoughts and consequences that result from these experiences, including feelings of being replaced or inadequate.
The conversation highlights the importance of open communication and understanding in navigating polyamorous relationships. In this conversation, Rahim helps José identify and analyze their hot thoughts related to feeling forgotten and unappreciated in their polyamorous relationship. They explore past relationship patterns and evaluate evidence to challenge these thoughts. José generates alternative thoughts and reassurances to provide a more balanced perspective. Rahim also suggests asking for affection or attention as a way to address José needs.
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
And each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:25):
Jose.
I'm going to tell the listenersa bit about you.
So, Jose is a psychologist.
They are a fabulous queer personof color, originally from Puerto
Rico, right?
And we met in Lexington,Kentucky, of all places, during
(00:47):
a conference called theContemporary Relationships
Conference in 2023.
And we just kept in touchbecause we were just like...
I mean, we're both just too cutenot to, you know?
And what's really fascinating isJose is really committed to
(01:07):
liberation psychology.
And I didn't know what that wasuntil I met them.
And I am so invested in somemore traditional models, which
probably...
elicit a mild disgust responsein Jose.
But we're here to see how we canlearn from each other.
(01:32):
Jose, is there anything you wantto say about yourself that I've
missed here?
I
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
used to be a hairstylist.
That's where I learned how tolisten.
I've published four collectionsof poetry as well.
So I would say I'm creative.
Literally, sensually, just abouteverywhere.
And yeah, like I think inSpanish, so I'm always
(01:59):
translating.
And yeah.
I am stuck in Cincinnati, whichis like hell for me, but I'm
going to be free from it in alittle bit.
So
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
it's fine.
I'm excited to dive in this withyou.
And I'm thanking you in advancefor your vulnerability, you
know, because there are a lot ofpeople who are therapists out
there who really shy away fromvulnerability.
And I think there's just so muchvalue in this kind of sharing.
(02:33):
So I'm going to go ahead andshare my screen.
So the situation on the leftthat we've identified, it's when
other partners of my partner arepresent, I get stuck.
But the specific situation iswhen my partner kissed his other
partner in the morning.
(02:54):
But didn't kiss me.
And this was in the living room.
It was in the summer.
You were all in the same home.
You and your partner livetogether.
Yes.
Your partner has other partnersand that other partner was
visiting.
Yes.
Correct.
Okay.
So Jose, in this specific momentin the living room, when you
didn't get the kiss, the morningaffection, what were you
(03:18):
feeling?
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Oh, I was feeling crushed.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Crushed.
Okay.
Yes.
Like a building just
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
squashed me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Oh, so I want to take crushed and I'm going to
write down crushed, but I wantto, I want to have a slightly
more refined feeling.
So let's go through a list offeelings and see what we can
generate.
And then we can erase the onesthat don't fit.
Anxious.
UNKNOWN (03:48):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
More like dread.
Dread.
Okay.
Sadness?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Is martyr a feeling?
Like feeling like a martyr?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
Tell me a bit about what youmean by that because I just– I
put it down, but I want to makesure we know what it means.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
So in that moment, it felt like I had contributed
so much to this home.
I like– I contributefinancially.
I do all of these things.
I cleaned before the otherpartner came here.
I'm keeping things spotless,typical house person things that
(04:35):
is in a 1920s marriage.
And then in that moment, it wasthis experience of like, why
can't you see my suffering?
Like, why can't you see all ofthese things that I'm doing for
you?
So invisible.
Yeah, yeah, like invisible.
(04:56):
Underappreciated.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
This is a good list of feelings.
Let's go through these.
And for each one, I'm going toask you to rate it on a scale of
1 to 10.
Now, this is...
The moment of witnessing thekiss and then it's the kiss that
you didn't get.
So crushed one to ten.
Ten.
Replaced?
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
I would say a six.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Dread.
It
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
was there, but it wasn't ass intense.
So maybe I'm like in between atwo and a threes, but I'm going
to go with three.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Okay.
And sad?
Eight.
Excluded.
Ten.
Yeah.
That martyr feeling?
Like a seven.
And then feeling invisible?
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Both invisible and underappreciated, ten.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
wow.
Okay.
Okay.
So there's a lot of intensefeelings here.
I'm an
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
intense person.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
No, no, yeah, and I'm not.
There's no judgment in that,right?
I'm just thinking about all thethings that are going through
your body.
I also wonder, like the feelingthat comes up for me, like
there's a kind of, when you saidmaybe this is martyr, but like
stoicism, like to be spoke?
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Is that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
Yes, you nailed it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
Should I say martyr slash stoic?
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah.
I was just, you know, Catholicbrain.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Fair, fair.
It took me a while to get thewords to.
So we've got these feelings.
And what did you do in themoment?
So we're moving over to the nextcolumn, which is about behavior.
And when we do the thoughtrecords, sometimes the behavior
(06:51):
column is important, butsometimes with a thought record,
we're often not trying to focuson behavior change.
We're more focusing on changingthe way we think or
understanding the way we think.
So I'm curious about yourbehavior, but we're not going to
put a lot of emphasis on it.
So what did you do in thatmoment?
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
So I do this thing with my face.
It's kind of like my eyebrowsjust get really like close
together.
And then, you know, I just looklike I want to kill someone.
So like
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
a furrowed brow.
SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Angry expression.
SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
Yeah.
I only look down at the floor.
So I don't, I don't look atpeople.
I don't look at things like myeyesight is to the floor.
I stonewall.
So I just get quiet.
And if I'm talked to, then I'manswering in one word.
Okay.
(07:48):
And I would also do like anadult tantrum.
Like, you know, I'm going tohave this mood, but I'm not
going to retreat orself-regulate.
I'm just going to stay in frontof you so you can see that I'm
in a bad mood.
Show
SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
people I'm in a bad mood without soothing myself.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Now, look, some of these behaviors have given me
made me think about otherfeelings.
So I'm just going to go back amoment.
Furrowed brow, angry expression.
Should we add angry to thefeelings list?
Self-righteous.
I love that.
Okay.
And how would you rateself-righteous?
(08:34):
Pretty high off, like a nine.
Okay, great.
And when you say look down atthe floor?
Inadequate.
And how would you rateinadequate?
Seven.
So thank you.
I'm glad we really examined thisfrom a feelings perspective.
And I think we've completed thepicture of feelings.
(09:01):
In this moment, when yourpartner kissed his other
partner, but not you, what's thefirst few things that went
through your mind?
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
So the first thing, and this is, I remember, because
I wrote it down.
Because sometimes my, and it'snot helpful, but I try to
self-regulate by texting myselfeverything that's on my head.
Very low success rate.
But I had written to myself atthat time, I'm not loved.
(09:33):
And this is it.
It's over.
So
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
those were the two things.
quickest things that came toyou, right?
And I'm thinking like, these arejust so bold and like they're
distilled, you know, they'renot, they don't speak to some
(10:00):
larger things.
It's just like, here's theoutcome.
And so that's, that's okay.
That's useful.
However, I'm going to ask a fewmore questions, I think.
When you were feelingself-righteous, for example,
right?
What's the thought connected toself-righteousness?
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
How dare he?
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
How dare he?
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
And how dare he?
You can't believe this becauseof how much you've done, how
much you've prepared.
Yeah.
Right?
So let's put those two thingsinto context.
a statement.
So something like, I put a lotof effort into this relationship
(10:45):
or I give more than the otherpartner, something like that.
How dare he not say hi to
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
me?
Like, no.
Yes.
Like I'm in your face and youjust ignored me.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Yeah.
And if he ignores you, um, Whatdoes it say to you?
What is the message he'sconveying?
Like I'm of lesser importance.
Okay.
And if you're not as importantas you thought you were, you
(11:21):
know, one of the consequencescould be that it's over.
But is there a consequence about– is there another kind of
consequence like– about youabout how you understood the
relationship
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
i i think it connects with the ex the feeling
of dread yeah um because like itplayed through my head at that
time kind of like if i'm oflesser importance what the
relationship is going to looklike if if i'm kind of like left
in the periphery um thinkingabout like will we divide our
(11:56):
finances will we live indifferent spaces.
So kind of like questioning thecommitment that we had at the
moment just because I didn't getthat good morning kiss.
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
Okay.
So this is very important.
One of your thoughts here is I'mnot sure he's as committed as
me.
UNKNOWN (12:28):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
But your mind is also going to the logistics of a
breakup.
Yeah.
Right?
Which tells me there's a bigfear around...
And I'm reaching a bit, so letme know if it's...
But there's an underlyinganxiety or fear around precarity
or uncertainty.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Okay.
So one of the other thoughtsis...
I don't know what a breakup willlook like.
And what's the fear of the,like, what would go wrong in the
division of things?
Is it that you would get less oryou would be destabilized?
Are you worried about beingdestitute?
(13:11):
Like, where does your mind go?
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
So this is like where the inadequacy comes in
because what comes up for me islike, I've always been a person
that's been with people.
I've never lived alone.
So I'm from a big family.
I've always had housemates.
So the inadequacy comes of mypartner is very autonomous and
(13:39):
independent, whereas I'm moreinterdependent and I rely a lot
on social contact to do things.
So if we were to break up and Iwere to stay here, I would feel
inadequate.
And like, how will I navigatethe city?
How will, like, I do all of thethings that need to be done.
(14:01):
You know, the relationship isover.
He's going to pick up and go,and I'm going to be here alone.
And I don't know how to navigatethe city.
SPEAKER_00 (14:11):
Right.
All right.
And if you don't know how tonavigate the city, if you
were...
single gal and your city was theother partner.
Well, what feels hard about thatfor you?
I driving
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
where to meet people.
Where are the first spaces?
That's good.
Having friends or family near.
And if we were to break upfinancially, like we would not
do with one salary like livingwhere we are etc so like that
(14:52):
would also bring morecomplications because if you're
tight financially then all ofthese things to meet people and
go places yeah just gets takenaway from you
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
so If you were trying to live in Cincinnati on
just one person's salary, whatwould that look like for you?
Would you have to changeneighborhoods, be further from
work, be further away from queerpeople?
I
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
would definitely have to move, but then, because
I live walking distance from myjob, so I walk every day.
So I could move to a cheaperarea, but then I've done the
math of like, I would need toget a car somewhere.
Considering commute, consideringlike, okay, if I commute this
(15:39):
amount of time every day, is itrealistic if I cook and kind of
like do meal prep?
Will that translate to buyingmore food?
SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
Okay.
So in a way, the thought here ismy life will be upended.
I'll have to move to a cheaperarea, get a car, think about
meal prep in a new way.
And you might not do all ofthose things because you've said
like, then those things willcost me money.
But you are thinking about ahuge life transition and you're
talking about a car right now.
(16:10):
The partner does the driving.
I imagine there's some anxietyaround driving.
I know I don't like to drive.
I don't know how to.
But you're thinking about,you're almost preparing for a
huge life transition.
Yeah.
Okay.
So all of this came from howdare he not say hi to me and
(16:32):
ignore me.
One of your first thoughts wasI'm of lesser importance and the
word lesser is a bit comparativein a way.
And so I just want to point outthat there may be–
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Something more subtle because now I'm just kind
of like– I would say things tomyself kind of like– Not, not
being jealous, but more kind oflike being envious around kind
of like they get the bestversion of my partner.
Like, you know, they don't livewith my partner.
They're not with my partner allthe time.
Like they don't have to dealwith like when they have bad
(17:10):
days or rough days, et cetera.
But I do.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
This last statement, they get the best version of my
partner while I see all sides tome says something about an
unfairness.
I think that you're right.
you're witnessing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:25):
Yeah.
Um, so three things are comingup for me.
Um, so, so one is I've been atthat time, I've been five years
with my partner.
Um, and it, it was like, I'veprepared them to date someone
(17:50):
else.
Like I've given them all theskills, um, and all of that.
So, you know, that's veryentitled right there.
The second part is definitelythat craving of like, when will
I get that treatment again?
(18:10):
Cause you know, like I used toget that type of treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Describe the treatment.
What is the treat?
It's like being prioritized orbeing
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
just kind of like receiving affection
spontaneously, like flirtycomments, physical touch.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
So when you say, when will I get that again?
It's a question.
If I turn it into a statement,would it be, I miss?
SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
So I miss spontaneous.
I miss and
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
I want this again.
Yeah.
And then the, the third thingthat came up for me is, It's
kind of like a sense of pridethat I have the privilege of
kind of like seeing all of thesides of my partner.
You know, it kind of reminds mewhy I love him.
There
SPEAKER_00 (19:00):
is something here of like it not being returned, I
think.
Yeah.
Is there something about, is theword here sacrifice?
Like I've made sacrifices orI've accommodated and then been
forgotten?
Is that kind of a thought?
Yeah.
I think that's very accurate.
(19:21):
Yeah.
Would I use the word sacrificeor accommodations or I've made
effort?
I just want to get the right.
Yeah, effort.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, you know, you wantspontaneous touch and affection.
You've made efforts to invitehis partners and then been
forgotten.
So the consequences are like,this is it.
(19:41):
It's over.
Or if I don't get these things,I'm not loved.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Right.
Now, I want you to have a lookat this column.
And I want you to have a look atthese automatic thoughts and
find one that really jumps outat you.
And we're going to call that thehot thought.
The hot thought is the onethat's the most salient or the
most prominent.
It's the one that's driving alot of the difficult feelings.
(20:07):
I'm not
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
sure
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
he's as
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
committed as me.
And...
I've made efforts to invitepartners and then forgotten.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Now, this one about I've made efforts to invite his
partners and then beenforgotten, I'm thinking.
So that sounds like I'm just abit conscientious about
analyzing that because thatcould be a fact and I'm not
sure.
So do you think that falls intoa category of unhelpful
(20:41):
thinking?
Yeah.
Or do you think that's factualbecause that's behavior he needs
to correct?
It's not factual.
It's not factual.
Okay.
So now the next column is aboutevaluating the hot thought.
So the hot thought is I madeefforts to invite his partner
and then been forgotten.
This means he's no longercommitted to me.
(21:03):
Right?
So what is evidence thatsuggests that you've been
forgotten?
Well, he did kiss me.
Yeah.
He didn't kiss me.
And there's differentialtreatment, right?
Yes.
Differential treatment.
Were there other things besidesthe kiss?
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
Not having as much conversation with me as is
typical.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
And is this your first or one of your longest
conversations?
relationships or is there aprevious relationship where
something similar happened thatcommunicated the person was not
no longer committed
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
so this is my second relationship um as also my
longest um my first relationshipwas three years long and he
ended up leaving me for forsomeone else i think like half a
year after he had left me likehe had had a conversation with
(22:06):
me around kind of like hefeeling threatened by me, like
me achieving moreintellectually.
So I think like that commitment,not just because he left me for
someone else, but because he waskeeping his feelings hidden from
me.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Okay.
So this is good evidence.
Is there anything else?
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
I mean, the forgotten piece, like not being
appreciated.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
So that is in terms of preparing the home.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Okay.
Now let's switch over to thenext column, which is evidence
that does not support the hotthought.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
So the first one is we plan beforehand, like before
the arrival, like we dosomething special.
And then after the partnerleaves...
we do something special again.
So there's kind of like, there'salready time made for us to
(23:11):
connect.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Yeah.
If they go out, like beinginvited to go out with them, to
go to dinner or the movies.
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
So prior to the morning kiss, had there already
been an instance where they weregoing to go out somewhere and
they invited you?
Yes.
Like before and after.
Ah,
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
okay.
There will still be like in themorning and at night, like my
partner will send me like very,not extremely, but kind of like
a sweet elaborated message oflike how much I'm loved.
Um, and kind of like that, um,they miss me sleeping next to
(23:58):
them and that they would like tosleep with me again.
SPEAKER_00 (24:03):
So from the other room, he's with the other
partner and sending you lovelymessages.
Yeah.
Okay.
Jose, my darling, let's come upwith some alternative thoughts.
I've made efforts to invite hispartners and then been
forgotten.
This means he's no longercommitted to me.
What's a good alternative?
(24:23):
thought for you.
And an alternative thoughtdoesn't have to be a positive
affirmation.
It's just something that's a bitmore balanced, right?
And it speaks directly to yourhot thought.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
The first one that comes up for me is like, we just
woke up.
And?
I haven't had my coffee, soeverything is more like
horrible.
Yes.
UNKNOWN (24:52):
Um...
SPEAKER_01 (24:53):
In my Puerto Rican brain, I would say, like, slow
down on the ridiculousness.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
I'm going to say, slow down and jump into
conclusions.
But I will put in brackets, theridiculousness.
Now, I wonder if there's anotherthought here that is connected
to the past partner and thepresent partner.
So the past partner...
kept feelings hidden, but doesthe current partner do that?
(25:26):
No, he does not.
So I don't know.
Is that a helpful reminder?
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, part of your hot thoughtstatement was I've made efforts
to invite his partners and thenbeen forgotten.
And is there something about,you want to tell yourself about
how you are appreciated or not?
(25:50):
How other people might recognizeyour effort.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
So I'm going two different directions.
Sure.
Like one, like this is not aboutme.
Like I'm not the guest.
And then the second route is–which is something that I've
started to do recently of kindof just like– texting, like,
(26:14):
here's what I did today aroundthe house.
And that's been very helpful inkind of like, you know, getting
that, oh, thank you, baby.
I really appreciate all that youdo around here.
I love how you make my lifeeasier.
I think an alternative thoughtthere could be like, if I'm not
saying what I did, it's notgoing to get appreciated.
(26:34):
Ah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
And I think when you said, like, I'm not the guest,
like, I think there's anotherpart to that.
I'm not the guest.
In
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Puerto Rico, being the guest, you get preferential
treatment.
You're basically treated likeroyalty because you are the
guest.
So when I say I'm not the guest,it's kind of like that reminder
to myself.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Yes.
So I'm not the guest and theguest should get top treatment.
Right.
I love that.
I love that.
That's a cultural teachingbecause it comes into play here.
So we've got several alternativethoughts and I'm curious about
which one really speaks to you.
I think the last
SPEAKER_01 (27:22):
two.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
And you'd pick two.
SPEAKER_01 (27:26):
And my current partner keeps me updated and
communicates changes andfeelings regularly.
OK,
SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
so three, three alternative thoughts.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
I'm going to copy and paste thefeelings here.
back into this box.
And I don't want you to worry atall about what your previous
rating was.
It doesn't matter to me if itgoes up or down.
It's all information, okay?
(27:53):
But I want you to think aboutthese new alternative thoughts.
And let's go through when you'reready to re-rate some of these
feelings.
So what would crushed be?
A three.
A three.
Okay.
What about excluded?
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
There's no zero, right?
It's one.
It could be.
One.
Okay.
Invisible.
One.
SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
Underappreciated.
Six.
Yeah.
Don't let it go.
Good.
Because it's there.
I want you to honor what'sthere.
What about self-righteous?
Four.
Sadness.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
One.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
The stoicism, the martyrness.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
A little bit.
I would say like a dash ofseasoning or two.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
Inadequate.
Five.
Yeah.
Replaced.
One.
And dread.
One.
All right.
So here we are.
Underappreciated,self-righteous, inadequate.
Those things are still there.
They come up for you.
But Having to play this martyrstoic role, feeling crushed and
(29:07):
excluded, invisible, the dread,which has a lot to do with, I
think, the possibility of yourlife getting upended, him
leaving you, all of that seemsto have gotten very small.
Are new feelings coming up inthis moment?
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
When I think about the alternative thoughts, I
don't know how to describe it.
I don't know if it's jolly orlike...
Jolly's great.
Yeah.
Like it's, you know, it's like,there's a fun touch to like, to
like this situation.
Like, like, wow.
Like I was ending my five-yearrelationship over a good morning
(29:46):
kiss and now I'm laughing aboutit.
Yeah.
Great.
Relief.
Yeah.
Is there too.
And like, I can access my ownagency.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Ah, yes.
Yeah.
So this is beautiful.
Jose, you are not a CBT girl,usually, but I'm curious about
your reflections on thisprocess.
What stands out to you, whatyou've learned about yourself,
ways that might have beenhelpful?
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
I've been in therapy my whole life and my first few
therapists would do CBT with meand it was not as enjoyable as
this.
And When I took the course, likethis was more of a like step
one, two, three, four.
Like there was no, you know, Ireally liked how you would go
back and kind of like connectthings and bring out the story
(30:41):
and not just staying with thethought there.
I'm a little bit surprised.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
And that's the CBT dive for today.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
See you next time.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
And each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:25):
Jose.
I'm going to tell the listenersa bit about you.
So, Jose is a psychologist.
They are a fabulous queer personof color, originally from Puerto
Rico, right?
And we met in Lexington,Kentucky, of all places, during
(00:47):
a conference called theContemporary Relationships
Conference in 2023.
And we just kept in touchbecause we were just like...
I mean, we're both just too cutenot to, you know?
And what's really fascinating isJose is really committed to
(01:07):
liberation psychology.
And I didn't know what that wasuntil I met them.
And I am so invested in somemore traditional models, which
probably...
elicit a mild disgust responsein Jose.
But we're here to see how we canlearn from each other.
(01:32):
Jose, is there anything you wantto say about yourself that I've
missed here?
I
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
used to be a hairstylist.
That's where I learned how tolisten.
I've published four collectionsof poetry as well.
So I would say I'm creative.
Literally, sensually, just abouteverywhere.
And yeah, like I think inSpanish, so I'm always
(01:59):
translating.
And yeah.
I am stuck in Cincinnati, whichis like hell for me, but I'm
going to be free from it in alittle bit.
So
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
it's fine.
I'm excited to dive in this withyou.
And I'm thanking you in advancefor your vulnerability, you
know, because there are a lot ofpeople who are therapists out
there who really shy away fromvulnerability.
And I think there's just so muchvalue in this kind of sharing.
(02:33):
So I'm going to go ahead andshare my screen.
So the situation on the leftthat we've identified, it's when
other partners of my partner arepresent, I get stuck.
But the specific situation iswhen my partner kissed his other
partner in the morning.
(02:54):
But didn't kiss me.
And this was in the living room.
It was in the summer.
You were all in the same home.
You and your partner livetogether.
Yes.
Your partner has other partnersand that other partner was
visiting.
Yes.
Correct.
Okay.
So Jose, in this specific momentin the living room, when you
didn't get the kiss, the morningaffection, what were you
(03:18):
feeling?
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Oh, I was feeling crushed.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Crushed.
Okay.
Yes.
Like a building just
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
squashed me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Oh, so I want to take crushed and I'm going to
write down crushed, but I wantto, I want to have a slightly
more refined feeling.
So let's go through a list offeelings and see what we can
generate.
And then we can erase the onesthat don't fit.
Anxious.
UNKNOWN (03:48):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
More like dread.
Dread.
Okay.
Sadness?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Is martyr a feeling?
Like feeling like a martyr?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
Tell me a bit about what youmean by that because I just– I
put it down, but I want to makesure we know what it means.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
So in that moment, it felt like I had contributed
so much to this home.
I like– I contributefinancially.
I do all of these things.
I cleaned before the otherpartner came here.
I'm keeping things spotless,typical house person things that
(04:35):
is in a 1920s marriage.
And then in that moment, it wasthis experience of like, why
can't you see my suffering?
Like, why can't you see all ofthese things that I'm doing for
you?
So invisible.
Yeah, yeah, like invisible.
(04:56):
Underappreciated.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
This is a good list of feelings.
Let's go through these.
And for each one, I'm going toask you to rate it on a scale of
1 to 10.
Now, this is...
The moment of witnessing thekiss and then it's the kiss that
you didn't get.
So crushed one to ten.
Ten.
Replaced?
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
I would say a six.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Dread.
It
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
was there, but it wasn't ass intense.
So maybe I'm like in between atwo and a threes, but I'm going
to go with three.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Okay.
And sad?
Eight.
Excluded.
Ten.
Yeah.
That martyr feeling?
Like a seven.
And then feeling invisible?
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Both invisible and underappreciated, ten.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
wow.
Okay.
Okay.
So there's a lot of intensefeelings here.
I'm an
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
intense person.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
No, no, yeah, and I'm not.
There's no judgment in that,right?
I'm just thinking about all thethings that are going through
your body.
I also wonder, like the feelingthat comes up for me, like
there's a kind of, when you saidmaybe this is martyr, but like
stoicism, like to be spoke?
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Is that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
Yes, you nailed it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
Should I say martyr slash stoic?
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah.
I was just, you know, Catholicbrain.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Fair, fair.
It took me a while to get thewords to.
So we've got these feelings.
And what did you do in themoment?
So we're moving over to the nextcolumn, which is about behavior.
And when we do the thoughtrecords, sometimes the behavior
(06:51):
column is important, butsometimes with a thought record,
we're often not trying to focuson behavior change.
We're more focusing on changingthe way we think or
understanding the way we think.
So I'm curious about yourbehavior, but we're not going to
put a lot of emphasis on it.
So what did you do in thatmoment?
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
So I do this thing with my face.
It's kind of like my eyebrowsjust get really like close
together.
And then, you know, I just looklike I want to kill someone.
So like
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
a furrowed brow.
SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Angry expression.
SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
Yeah.
I only look down at the floor.
So I don't, I don't look atpeople.
I don't look at things like myeyesight is to the floor.
I stonewall.
So I just get quiet.
And if I'm talked to, then I'manswering in one word.
Okay.
(07:48):
And I would also do like anadult tantrum.
Like, you know, I'm going tohave this mood, but I'm not
going to retreat orself-regulate.
I'm just going to stay in frontof you so you can see that I'm
in a bad mood.
Show
SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
people I'm in a bad mood without soothing myself.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Now, look, some of these behaviors have given me
made me think about otherfeelings.
So I'm just going to go back amoment.
Furrowed brow, angry expression.
Should we add angry to thefeelings list?
Self-righteous.
I love that.
Okay.
And how would you rateself-righteous?
(08:34):
Pretty high off, like a nine.
Okay, great.
And when you say look down atthe floor?
Inadequate.
And how would you rateinadequate?
Seven.
So thank you.
I'm glad we really examined thisfrom a feelings perspective.
And I think we've completed thepicture of feelings.
(09:01):
In this moment, when yourpartner kissed his other
partner, but not you, what's thefirst few things that went
through your mind?
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
So the first thing, and this is, I remember, because
I wrote it down.
Because sometimes my, and it'snot helpful, but I try to
self-regulate by texting myselfeverything that's on my head.
Very low success rate.
But I had written to myself atthat time, I'm not loved.
(09:33):
And this is it.
It's over.
So
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
those were the two things.
quickest things that came toyou, right?
And I'm thinking like, these arejust so bold and like they're
distilled, you know, they'renot, they don't speak to some
(10:00):
larger things.
It's just like, here's theoutcome.
And so that's, that's okay.
That's useful.
However, I'm going to ask a fewmore questions, I think.
When you were feelingself-righteous, for example,
right?
What's the thought connected toself-righteousness?
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
How dare he?
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
How dare he?
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
And how dare he?
You can't believe this becauseof how much you've done, how
much you've prepared.
Yeah.
Right?
So let's put those two thingsinto context.
a statement.
So something like, I put a lotof effort into this relationship
(10:45):
or I give more than the otherpartner, something like that.
How dare he not say hi to
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
me?
Like, no.
Yes.
Like I'm in your face and youjust ignored me.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Yeah.
And if he ignores you, um, Whatdoes it say to you?
What is the message he'sconveying?
Like I'm of lesser importance.
Okay.
And if you're not as importantas you thought you were, you
(11:21):
know, one of the consequencescould be that it's over.
But is there a consequence about– is there another kind of
consequence like– about youabout how you understood the
relationship
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
i i think it connects with the ex the feeling
of dread yeah um because like itplayed through my head at that
time kind of like if i'm oflesser importance what the
relationship is going to looklike if if i'm kind of like left
in the periphery um thinkingabout like will we divide our
(11:56):
finances will we live indifferent spaces.
So kind of like questioning thecommitment that we had at the
moment just because I didn't getthat good morning kiss.
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
Okay.
So this is very important.
One of your thoughts here is I'mnot sure he's as committed as
me.
UNKNOWN (12:28):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
But your mind is also going to the logistics of a
breakup.
Yeah.
Right?
Which tells me there's a bigfear around...
And I'm reaching a bit, so letme know if it's...
But there's an underlyinganxiety or fear around precarity
or uncertainty.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Okay.
So one of the other thoughtsis...
I don't know what a breakup willlook like.
And what's the fear of the,like, what would go wrong in the
division of things?
Is it that you would get less oryou would be destabilized?
Are you worried about beingdestitute?
(13:11):
Like, where does your mind go?
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
So this is like where the inadequacy comes in
because what comes up for me islike, I've always been a person
that's been with people.
I've never lived alone.
So I'm from a big family.
I've always had housemates.
So the inadequacy comes of mypartner is very autonomous and
(13:39):
independent, whereas I'm moreinterdependent and I rely a lot
on social contact to do things.
So if we were to break up and Iwere to stay here, I would feel
inadequate.
And like, how will I navigatethe city?
How will, like, I do all of thethings that need to be done.
(14:01):
You know, the relationship isover.
He's going to pick up and go,and I'm going to be here alone.
And I don't know how to navigatethe city.
SPEAKER_00 (14:11):
Right.
All right.
And if you don't know how tonavigate the city, if you
were...
single gal and your city was theother partner.
Well, what feels hard about thatfor you?
I driving
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
where to meet people.
Where are the first spaces?
That's good.
Having friends or family near.
And if we were to break upfinancially, like we would not
do with one salary like livingwhere we are etc so like that
(14:52):
would also bring morecomplications because if you're
tight financially then all ofthese things to meet people and
go places yeah just gets takenaway from you
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
so If you were trying to live in Cincinnati on
just one person's salary, whatwould that look like for you?
Would you have to changeneighborhoods, be further from
work, be further away from queerpeople?
I
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
would definitely have to move, but then, because
I live walking distance from myjob, so I walk every day.
So I could move to a cheaperarea, but then I've done the
math of like, I would need toget a car somewhere.
Considering commute, consideringlike, okay, if I commute this
(15:39):
amount of time every day, is itrealistic if I cook and kind of
like do meal prep?
Will that translate to buyingmore food?
SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
Okay.
So in a way, the thought here ismy life will be upended.
I'll have to move to a cheaperarea, get a car, think about
meal prep in a new way.
And you might not do all ofthose things because you've said
like, then those things willcost me money.
But you are thinking about ahuge life transition and you're
talking about a car right now.
(16:10):
The partner does the driving.
I imagine there's some anxietyaround driving.
I know I don't like to drive.
I don't know how to.
But you're thinking about,you're almost preparing for a
huge life transition.
Yeah.
Okay.
So all of this came from howdare he not say hi to me and
(16:32):
ignore me.
One of your first thoughts wasI'm of lesser importance and the
word lesser is a bit comparativein a way.
And so I just want to point outthat there may be–
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Something more subtle because now I'm just kind
of like– I would say things tomyself kind of like– Not, not
being jealous, but more kind oflike being envious around kind
of like they get the bestversion of my partner.
Like, you know, they don't livewith my partner.
They're not with my partner allthe time.
Like they don't have to dealwith like when they have bad
(17:10):
days or rough days, et cetera.
But I do.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
This last statement, they get the best version of my
partner while I see all sides tome says something about an
unfairness.
I think that you're right.
you're witnessing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:25):
Yeah.
Um, so three things are comingup for me.
Um, so, so one is I've been atthat time, I've been five years
with my partner.
Um, and it, it was like, I'veprepared them to date someone
(17:50):
else.
Like I've given them all theskills, um, and all of that.
So, you know, that's veryentitled right there.
The second part is definitelythat craving of like, when will
I get that treatment again?
(18:10):
Cause you know, like I used toget that type of treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Describe the treatment.
What is the treat?
It's like being prioritized orbeing
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
just kind of like receiving affection
spontaneously, like flirtycomments, physical touch.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
So when you say, when will I get that again?
It's a question.
If I turn it into a statement,would it be, I miss?
SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
So I miss spontaneous.
I miss and
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
I want this again.
Yeah.
And then the, the third thingthat came up for me is, It's
kind of like a sense of pridethat I have the privilege of
kind of like seeing all of thesides of my partner.
You know, it kind of reminds mewhy I love him.
There
SPEAKER_00 (19:00):
is something here of like it not being returned, I
think.
Yeah.
Is there something about, is theword here sacrifice?
Like I've made sacrifices orI've accommodated and then been
forgotten?
Is that kind of a thought?
Yeah.
I think that's very accurate.
(19:21):
Yeah.
Would I use the word sacrificeor accommodations or I've made
effort?
I just want to get the right.
Yeah, effort.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, you know, you wantspontaneous touch and affection.
You've made efforts to invitehis partners and then been
forgotten.
So the consequences are like,this is it.
(19:41):
It's over.
Or if I don't get these things,I'm not loved.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Right.
Now, I want you to have a lookat this column.
And I want you to have a look atthese automatic thoughts and
find one that really jumps outat you.
And we're going to call that thehot thought.
The hot thought is the onethat's the most salient or the
most prominent.
It's the one that's driving alot of the difficult feelings.
(20:07):
I'm not
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
sure
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
he's as
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
committed as me.
And...
I've made efforts to invitepartners and then forgotten.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Now, this one about I've made efforts to invite his
partners and then beenforgotten, I'm thinking.
So that sounds like I'm just abit conscientious about
analyzing that because thatcould be a fact and I'm not
sure.
So do you think that falls intoa category of unhelpful
(20:41):
thinking?
Yeah.
Or do you think that's factualbecause that's behavior he needs
to correct?
It's not factual.
It's not factual.
Okay.
So now the next column is aboutevaluating the hot thought.
So the hot thought is I madeefforts to invite his partner
and then been forgotten.
This means he's no longercommitted to me.
(21:03):
Right?
So what is evidence thatsuggests that you've been
forgotten?
Well, he did kiss me.
Yeah.
He didn't kiss me.
And there's differentialtreatment, right?
Yes.
Differential treatment.
Were there other things besidesthe kiss?
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
Not having as much conversation with me as is
typical.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
And is this your first or one of your longest
conversations?
relationships or is there aprevious relationship where
something similar happened thatcommunicated the person was not
no longer committed
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
so this is my second relationship um as also my
longest um my first relationshipwas three years long and he
ended up leaving me for forsomeone else i think like half a
year after he had left me likehe had had a conversation with
(22:06):
me around kind of like hefeeling threatened by me, like
me achieving moreintellectually.
So I think like that commitment,not just because he left me for
someone else, but because he waskeeping his feelings hidden from
me.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Okay.
So this is good evidence.
Is there anything else?
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
I mean, the forgotten piece, like not being
appreciated.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
So that is in terms of preparing the home.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Okay.
Now let's switch over to thenext column, which is evidence
that does not support the hotthought.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
So the first one is we plan beforehand, like before
the arrival, like we dosomething special.
And then after the partnerleaves...
we do something special again.
So there's kind of like, there'salready time made for us to
(23:11):
connect.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Yeah.
If they go out, like beinginvited to go out with them, to
go to dinner or the movies.
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
So prior to the morning kiss, had there already
been an instance where they weregoing to go out somewhere and
they invited you?
Yes.
Like before and after.
Ah,
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
okay.
There will still be like in themorning and at night, like my
partner will send me like very,not extremely, but kind of like
a sweet elaborated message oflike how much I'm loved.
Um, and kind of like that, um,they miss me sleeping next to
(23:58):
them and that they would like tosleep with me again.
SPEAKER_00 (24:03):
So from the other room, he's with the other
partner and sending you lovelymessages.
Yeah.
Okay.
Jose, my darling, let's come upwith some alternative thoughts.
I've made efforts to invite hispartners and then been
forgotten.
This means he's no longercommitted to me.
What's a good alternative?
(24:23):
thought for you.
And an alternative thoughtdoesn't have to be a positive
affirmation.
It's just something that's a bitmore balanced, right?
And it speaks directly to yourhot thought.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
The first one that comes up for me is like, we just
woke up.
And?
I haven't had my coffee, soeverything is more like
horrible.
Yes.
UNKNOWN (24:52):
Um...
SPEAKER_01 (24:53):
In my Puerto Rican brain, I would say, like, slow
down on the ridiculousness.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
I'm going to say, slow down and jump into
conclusions.
But I will put in brackets, theridiculousness.
Now, I wonder if there's anotherthought here that is connected
to the past partner and thepresent partner.
So the past partner...
kept feelings hidden, but doesthe current partner do that?
(25:26):
No, he does not.
So I don't know.
Is that a helpful reminder?
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, part of your hot thoughtstatement was I've made efforts
to invite his partners and thenbeen forgotten.
And is there something about,you want to tell yourself about
how you are appreciated or not?
(25:50):
How other people might recognizeyour effort.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
So I'm going two different directions.
Sure.
Like one, like this is not aboutme.
Like I'm not the guest.
And then the second route is–which is something that I've
started to do recently of kindof just like– texting, like,
(26:14):
here's what I did today aroundthe house.
And that's been very helpful inkind of like, you know, getting
that, oh, thank you, baby.
I really appreciate all that youdo around here.
I love how you make my lifeeasier.
I think an alternative thoughtthere could be like, if I'm not
saying what I did, it's notgoing to get appreciated.
(26:34):
Ah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
And I think when you said, like, I'm not the guest,
like, I think there's anotherpart to that.
I'm not the guest.
In
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Puerto Rico, being the guest, you get preferential
treatment.
You're basically treated likeroyalty because you are the
guest.
So when I say I'm not the guest,it's kind of like that reminder
to myself.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Yes.
So I'm not the guest and theguest should get top treatment.
Right.
I love that.
I love that.
That's a cultural teachingbecause it comes into play here.
So we've got several alternativethoughts and I'm curious about
which one really speaks to you.
I think the last
SPEAKER_01 (27:22):
two.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
And you'd pick two.
SPEAKER_01 (27:26):
And my current partner keeps me updated and
communicates changes andfeelings regularly.
OK,
SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
so three, three alternative thoughts.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
I'm going to copy and paste thefeelings here.
back into this box.
And I don't want you to worry atall about what your previous
rating was.
It doesn't matter to me if itgoes up or down.
It's all information, okay?
(27:53):
But I want you to think aboutthese new alternative thoughts.
And let's go through when you'reready to re-rate some of these
feelings.
So what would crushed be?
A three.
A three.
Okay.
What about excluded?
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
There's no zero, right?
It's one.
It could be.
One.
Okay.
Invisible.
One.
SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
Underappreciated.
Six.
Yeah.
Don't let it go.
Good.
Because it's there.
I want you to honor what'sthere.
What about self-righteous?
Four.
Sadness.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
One.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
The stoicism, the martyrness.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
A little bit.
I would say like a dash ofseasoning or two.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
Inadequate.
Five.
Yeah.
Replaced.
One.
And dread.
One.
All right.
So here we are.
Underappreciated,self-righteous, inadequate.
Those things are still there.
They come up for you.
But Having to play this martyrstoic role, feeling crushed and
(29:07):
excluded, invisible, the dread,which has a lot to do with, I
think, the possibility of yourlife getting upended, him
leaving you, all of that seemsto have gotten very small.
Are new feelings coming up inthis moment?
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
When I think about the alternative thoughts, I
don't know how to describe it.
I don't know if it's jolly orlike...
Jolly's great.
Yeah.
Like it's, you know, it's like,there's a fun touch to like, to
like this situation.
Like, like, wow.
Like I was ending my five-yearrelationship over a good morning
(29:46):
kiss and now I'm laughing aboutit.
Yeah.
Great.
Relief.
Yeah.
Is there too.
And like, I can access my ownagency.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Ah, yes.
Yeah.
So this is beautiful.
Jose, you are not a CBT girl,usually, but I'm curious about
your reflections on thisprocess.
What stands out to you, whatyou've learned about yourself,
ways that might have beenhelpful?
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
I've been in therapy my whole life and my first few
therapists would do CBT with meand it was not as enjoyable as
this.
And When I took the course, likethis was more of a like step
one, two, three, four.
Like there was no, you know, Ireally liked how you would go
back and kind of like connectthings and bring out the story
(30:41):
and not just staying with thethought there.
I'm a little bit surprised.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
And that's the CBT dive for today.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
See you next time.
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