April 9, 2024 • 40 mins
Host and therapist Rahim Thawer talks to Vance, a sex and intimacy coach, who discusses his behaviors and thoughts when he feels excluded, and his desire for a group of friends. Vance shares his experiences with friendships and the fear of being too much for others. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the isolation that can come with personal growth and the importance of being understood by a small group of people.
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRaheem Thaur.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:26):
How are you today?
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
I'm feeling pretty good.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
I am pretty good.
For our listeners, I want to saya little bit about you before we
jump into our thought record.
Vance is a sex and intimacycoach.
He is 34, lives in Toronto, buthe's originally a prairie boy
from Saskatchewan.
He's also a yoga teacher andreally appreciates movement,
(00:50):
dance, and all things embodied.
Vance, I really would like foryou to share a bit about what it
means to be a sex and intimacycoach.
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
Yeah, thanks.
So I work with mostly queerfolks, socialized men, to be
able to find deeper connectionand pleasure by practicing
skills with me.
So the somatic part of it isthat I practice emotional and
sexual skills with clients inreal time with me authentically
(01:23):
with boundaries so that they cansee how it feels in their body
to feel connection or maybe feeldisconnected or feel shame and
just see how those things showup and how we can come back into
connection.
So it's a very experientialpractice, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
It absolutely does make sense.
And I think people might hearthat and wonder if that involves
sex, but you did say withboundaries.
How do you talk about boundarieswith people?
SPEAKER_02 (01:53):
Like within my work, I'm very clear within my
boundaries of the things that wewill not be doing.
So it's funny when you mention,do I have sex?
And it's like, Like intimacy,right?
Like the goal is connection andintimacy.
So the boundaries are that likeclothes stay on.
I don't kiss.
I don't do penetration.
I don't do oral with clients,but we can use touch, right?
So we might do things likecuddling.
(02:14):
We can build arousal, maybe withrole play.
We do spanking.
We can play around BDSM stuff,right?
So we can use all those withinthose boundaries.
And so the thing with sex islike, I get a lot of clients who
are like, oh, but I would reallylove to bottom and I want to
work on that and see how thatfeels or something.
And I'm like, great and and ican help you with skills about
how to bottom but the thing islike the feeling is what we want
(02:37):
to work on and building arousalso we can do very sexual things
to create that feeling becausemaybe bottoming with someone who
doesn't want that isn't going tofeel good anyways right and so
that's like the lesson withinboundaries is like we're not
working on creating a specificsituation.
We're focusing on creating afeeling within each other, which
(03:00):
is eroticism, arousal,connection, safety.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Yeah.
I love that so much.
I really appreciate thatclarification.
And for you Vance, I'm curiousto know how does movement and
touch how do they influence orimpact your own mental health?
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
The one of the things that I've done every day,
so since I was like 18, is I getup and I dance in the morning,
but it's like a practice to getme out of my head and into my
body.
And so the goal of it is like,yeah, I notice when I'm in that
place where I feel really freewith my dancing and I'm like,
oh, I've moved out of that placeand I haven't changed anything
(03:39):
besides just coming into my bodyand calming my nervous system
down, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
And as you talk about that, I can't help but
make a connection here betweenthe way you describe your work
as a practice of inclusion andcare for people.
And yet, in the situation we'regoing to describe today or we're
going to explore, it is ascenario where you feel excluded
(04:10):
or left out.
I'm gonna go ahead and share myscreen.
You'll see a thought record showup.
So on the left side, we've gotthe situation column.
Now that is a situation thatactivates difficult feelings.
So prior to this recording, wehad identified that one thing
(04:31):
that's difficult or brings up alot for you is when you might
see a social media post about aparty that you weren't invited
to.
This is something that'shappened to you a couple of
times, I'm guessing.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Yeah, I mean, I've gone through a lot of therapy
and I do know that this is like,I know where this comes from.
Like, I'm very self-aware of thefact that I was left out a lot
when I was a kid.
And there was a few years therewhen I was a teenager where I
had no friends and also wasstruggling with family stuff.
So like being alone and notfeeling a part of something is
(05:09):
my trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And so on the one hand, it'svery useful to know where
something comes from, what thehistory of that particular thing
is.
But also there's value inthinking, OK, when it shows up,
what do I what am I going to do?
Right.
Because that isn't as clear cut.
And so hopefully a thoughtrecord will help you identify
(05:31):
the things that go on in yourmind.
when these difficult feelingscome up in a situation where you
feel left out and then you canconsider what an alternative
thought might be.
So let's, I'm gonna ask you tothink about a situation where
you felt triggered because youwere left out or imagine
(05:52):
yourself seeing the social mediapost and that's when you realize
there was something thatoccurred that you were not
invited to.
Vance, what were you feelingwhen you saw the post?
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Anger?
I feel sad.
I actually, like, I go intofight or flight.
Like, in the initial moment is avery, like, fuck them.
You know, like, that's theinitial what happens in that
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah.
And so the fuck them meansanger, but also, like,
hostility.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And frustration.
UNKNOWN (06:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Would that be frustration?
I just want to make sure I'm notmaking, putting feelings in your
heart.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
I noticed my mind going into this place of like,
oh, I'm never going to havefriends.
People are never going to likeme.
I'm never going to figure thisout.
Like I'm never going to be apart of a group of friends.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
And when you say I'm never going to be, I'm thinking
hopelessness.
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
yeah.
And the content of what you'resaying makes me think about
loneliness or isolation.
Yeah, loneliness for sure.
And you're feeling sad?
And I'm guessing you're alsofeeling hurt.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Oh, totally.
So we've got a good list offeelings here.
Anger, hostility, frustrated orfrustration, sad, hurt,
hopeless, lonely.
Let's go through and let's tryto rate each of these on a scale
of one to 10.
So when you see the social mediapost, how would you rate your
anger?
Probably a
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
10.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Yeah.
And hostility?
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
Eight.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
And frustrated?
Eight.
Okay.
And sad?
Two.
Hurt?
Ten.
Hopeless?
Seven.
And lonely?
I'll say eight.
All right.
I'm seeing the feelings arepretty strong.
What do you do in that moment?
SPEAKER_02 (07:47):
I might have a moment with myself.
Like I kind of lose it and havea bit of like losing my temper.
Like, I'll say for example, onetime when this happened, I broke
my coffee table.
So it just feels like, yeah.
So it feels like I just need toget the energy out in the
(08:09):
initial moment.
It just has this feeling oflike, fuck.
And in that moment, I punched mycoffee table and broke it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Yeah.
So you'd redirect the aggressiontoward an object.
You know, that's pretty, thatsounds pretty good.
It's quite healthy, you know?
Yeah.
Now, the next column isautomatic thoughts.
So these are the thoughts thatcome up for you when you see the
social media posts and you feelangry, frustrated, hurt,
(08:36):
hopeless, lonely.
And you already began talkingabout some of these.
Like, for example, one of thethings you said was, I'll never
have a group of friends.
Was that it?
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
So what are the other thoughts that come up for
you?
Fuck them.
Yeah.
and I just want to make factthem a full sentence.
So if I were to say like, Ireally hate them or I'm really
angry with them, would thatwork?
SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That works.
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
And when you say there, I'm really angry at them.
Right.
That's like a stance.
And I'm thinking if I were toturn that into a statement that
is about them, as opposed to howyou're feeling, I wonder if the
statement would be, um, theyhurt me on purpose or they're
vindictive or they'reinconsiderate.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
I mean, definitely inconsiderate when I can like
rationally think about it.
Like I feel really hurt that itfelt like I didn't matter.
So the thought here is like, I
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
didn't matter.
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
Yeah.
Like you don't even care aboutme.
You didn't even think about me.
Are
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
these newer friends that you would just say people,
or would you say these, this ismy, These are friends, people
that I thought were friends ofmine.
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yeah, friends for sure.
I mean, it can still be like,I'll notice it too now.
Like if I just see people that Idon't know, like I used to
always do this with groups ofgay men all hanging together
because it is a very likeprevalent thing on social media
of like the.
10 plus gay guys that gettogether every weekend or doing
(10:21):
dinner parties of at least 10people.
And I'm like, how the fuck dothey do that?
I don't even have two friends.
You know what I mean?
I could never invite that manypeople to a thing.
And so that would bother me ortrigger me.
But when it's someone that is myfriend, yeah, that is the
intense trigger.
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
So they're inconsiderate.
I'll never have a group offriends.
I didn't matter.
to my friends when they weremaking a plan.
So when you say, I'll never havea group of friends, I think
there's more packed into that.
Do you mind telling me a bitabout your experience with
friendships?
(11:02):
Have they been hard to maintainin your experience?
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
So I'm from Saskatchewan, right?
And I'm from rural Saskatchewanwhere I went to school with the
same kids, kindergarten andgrade eight.
So there was the same, like, Ithink there was like 12 or 13 of
us.
We're all like pretty close andeveryone is friends.
And around like grade seven,things shifted.
And my theory is because I thinkwe're starting to be like young
adults and maybe my queernessstarted to be more like they're
(11:29):
more aware of it, of thedifference of it.
And so it just like the entireclass, just everyone just
started treating me differently,like treating me differently.
Like they started bullying me.
Right.
So like it was leaving me out ofthings.
I wasn't included in thingsanymore.
Everyone was mean to mephysically and mentally abusive.
And so that was a moment where Inever felt like it was a part of
(11:50):
anything.
And then I felt like I felt likethis throughout my whole life
where I've noticed how I do notreally fit in with a group.
And some of it, I think it'sjust like my psychology from
that trauma is that I feel like,oh, I'm not as important.
I don't fit in with this group.
Like, I don't have this groupthat's going to call on me all
the time to like, hey, we'redoing this this weekend.
(12:12):
We're doing that.
When it comes to the I'll neverhave a group of friends, I think
that thought started to come ina lot more in the last few years
where like, you know, now I'm 34and I'm like, wow, this is gonna
be like, I'm gonna be 40 andstill not really have a group of
friends.
So then it starts to like thatfeeling of, I can't believe I'm
still dealing with this.
Like, oh, this is kind of likethe evidence is starting to show
(12:34):
that I will never have a groupof friends.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
And what has it meant to try and have a group of
friends?
Or what would it say about youif you were to have a group of
friends?
Like the 10 people you invite toa dinner party,
SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
it would mean that I feel like I'm a part of
something, that I'm included.
There has been times that I havebeen within a group, but it
always seems to like, I stilljust don't feel like I fit in.
And there are these moments, butthen I feel like as soon as
people start to get to know me,I start to get pushed out of the
group.
(13:11):
And so when I'm in the group, Ifeel like, wow, this is so
great.
Like, I'm so happy.
I love being a part of thisgroup.
but then it like doesn't seem tolast.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
I imagine you've, that's registered in your psyche
in some way.
So when people get to know me,you might say to yourself,
they'll inevitably push me away.
Is that how you think about it?
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
I don't know if I like think that clearly with it,
but I do notice that like inrelationships, certain
relationships, I'll notice likemaybe I get more anxious
sometimes.
Because I'm like, oh, they'renot going to stick around.
They're going to leave.
Or, you know, when I'm a part ofthat group, I'm like careful
with who, like how I expressmyself and how I am because
(13:57):
there is this like subconsciousfeeling of like, oh, don't be
too much because then you'regoing to lose it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Would you say like, if I'm too much, I'll scare
people away?
SPEAKER_02 (14:06):
Yeah.
And I totally, I know that I do.
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
So what does being too much mean?
Is it talking about a particularthing?
interest hobby a lot?
Is it sharing personal thoughtsor beliefs about something?
What does it mean to be toomuch?
SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
I mean, even when I, what I just said about when all
my classmates started or stoppedhanging out with me, stopped
liking me.
Yes.
My queerness was too muchbecause they didn't know how to
handle that.
Like I grew up in a place thatwas so conservative and very
redneck.
And so being gay was too much.
That was too much for people tohandle.
(14:43):
Right.
But that's okay.
And so like, Like, now I notice,like, presently, I notice that,
you know, even when I talk aboutbeing a sex coach, or doing sex
work, or whatever, or just beingsexually open, I know that
triggers people, because it istoo much for people, because,
like, it triggers their ownshame with it.
(15:03):
One of the reasons why Idon't...
I'm not for everyone, and Iunderstand that, is because...
I'm so sensitive that it'sreally hard for me to be
inauthentic.
It's really hard for me to be aslike a lot of men have learned
to like, Oh, just be stoic.
Don't say anything.
(15:24):
Don't be emotional.
Don't be sensitive.
Right.
Like those are the messages welearn.
And like, I learned that too,but, uh, apparently like it
didn't work for me and I'm stilllike this sensitive, emotional
person.
And so if I'm around a group ofguys, men who, uh, are not
comfortable with feelings, thenI am too much for them.
But the thing is, I have to bethat, and instead of being like,
(15:48):
oh, okay, I'll change for youguys and I'll make you more
comfortable, I have to just bemyself and be like, that's okay.
This is not a relationship Iwanna be in that asks us to
change who we are to be friendsor whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
You've said some really interesting things.
So one was I was trying tofigure out what too much looks
like in your adult self.
And it sounds like it's abouttalking about feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
It's a big one, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
It's a big one.
And that scares people away.
The other thing you said was mywork activates shame in other
people.
That's really fascinating.
Can you tell me just a littlebit more about how you see that
happening?
Because I think you're right.
I'm just curious about thatprocess.
SPEAKER_02 (16:44):
When I tell people what I do, there usually is
like, oh, well, that's crazy.
Or like, that's urgent,different, right?
I shouldn't say crazy, but wewere like, oh, wow, that's like,
what is that or whatever?
And when I start to kind of talkabout it, I noticed that like
the conversation ends, not foreverybody, but like I noticed
some people will be like, Idon't even ask about it because
like, I don't even want to talkabout it.
(17:05):
Because if I start talking aboutlike sex and shame and shame
with sex, like someone, which alot of people, we all have shame
involving sex.
It's just varying degrees.
And so if someone hasn't dealtwith that, that's just going to
make them uncomfortable.
So why would I or why would thatperson would be like, oh, please
tell me more.
I would love to hear more aboutyour work or how is work going?
(17:27):
Like it just kind of becomes athing of like, oh, I just don't
talk about that.
And so to me, it actually feelslike what I notice is it feels
like people aren't beingsupportive.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
I hear that.
Thank you for clarifying that.
It really gives me a sense ofthe isolation that comes with
having done a certain amount ofpsychological work.
I think a lot of people canappreciate that if they're in
therapy, talking about theirfamily traumas or attachment
(18:00):
issues, traumas, and no one elsein their family has done that
work, that personal growth endsup being very isolating.
And I'm seeing that kind ofparallel here.
But in this context, it's morewith other gay men.
And I'm guessing your experiencebeginning in seventh grade
(18:25):
propelled you toward comfortwith self, dealing with shame
and dealing like challengingyour own shame kind of head on.
And so when you say I'll neverhave a group of friends, I'm
thinking if I were to expandthat, it might be that you're
you're worried, you'll neverhave a group of friends who
(18:47):
understand you.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
Now, I want to go back to this idea of the group
of friends.
Since we all saw the showfriends i think we've all wanted
a group of friends you know andnot just that show but you know
many shows and then we all sawqueer as folk and we saw the l
word and any major television orshow with like high school kids
(19:15):
and like their core group of
SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
friends
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
yeah It's just so present.
It's such a present trope.
And I think a lot of us long forthat.
SPEAKER_02 (19:22):
But I also think that there is a thing with, I
mean, we have this obsession.
There is this overcompensating.
So like being famous or likehaving a lot of followers or
something or having as manypeople at your birthday party as
possible to show on social mediabecomes a thing of like, I'm not
worthy of love.
(19:42):
So I have to show that like Ihave love.
X amount of people that love meinstead of, even if it's not
like deep friendships, right?
It's more about like, wow, if Ifill my life with like a large
group of people all the time, Iwill feel loved.
But I think it's like ainauthentic, very surface level
love that you kind of need to bewith those people all the time
(20:05):
to feel that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
Yeah.
And you saying it that way, Iimagine feels so threatening to
so many people, right?
Yeah.
And so in a way, I think one ofyour other thoughts here that is
not quite at the surface butmight be underneath is that
people can't handle some of thethings I like to talk about or
(20:28):
I'm aware of.
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Yeah.
People can't handle the truth.
Yeah.
The kinds of honesty.
So people can't handle the kindsof honesty and analysis I bring
about.
I'm going to say to casualconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
You did say like, I'm almost 40 and I don't have
this group.
And so if you don't have thisgroup, what will that mean for
your life?
SPEAKER_02 (21:01):
Cause when I'm like 22 and this is happening, you
know, you feel like you got alot of time to like find that
group of friends.
But then when you're 34, you'relike, oh my God, six years, like
what if I'm 40?
And like, I still don't havethis, right?
And then it's, to me, thethought is, wow, there's
something wrong with me.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
It feels like maybe a bit more high stakes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Yeah, like I'll say like when I'm in the moment, in
the triggered moment of mynervous system is so activated,
I do have this thought.
And this is when like, I'mreally activated.
I do have this thought of like-If I'm still doing this when I'm
50, I don't want to be doingthis.
This is not a life worth living.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
It gets to a dark place.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:39):
Yeah.
And one of your thoughts here isI'll be alone forever.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
And you're also thinking that wouldn't be a life
worth living.
That's a heavy thing.
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
going to put that down because I want to honor
that.
Like that is a very, it's a veryvulnerable thing.
to put out there.
And I just, yeah, I want to justhold it.
It shows me how dire it can feelat times, the loneliness.
So as I look at your automaticthoughts column, the next thing
(22:13):
I was going to ask is what isthe most salient thought, like
the most prominent one thatdrives a lot of these difficult
feelings?
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Like I'm lonely is the thought.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
Yeah.
And I'll never have a, have agroup of friends.
I'm going back to the first oneand I'll always experience
loneliness.
SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
Does that fit?
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
If I were to make that the bold and like, if I was
to make that bolder and I said,that is the hot thought, meaning
that's the one, um, that drivesa lot of the difficult feelings.
Would you say that's the thoughtthat's crossing your mind?
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Okay.
So I'll never have a group offriends and I'll always
experience loneliness.
You've already given me someevidence that supports this.
I've been trying since gradeseven.
Right?
That's one of the things you hadsaid.
So that's hard.
Have you been part of othergroups that have then excluded
you beyond the one that you'rementioning here?
(23:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:21):
I mean, I think to...
varying degrees.
Like I'll say like when I was ingrade 11, I, I ended up meeting
a bunch of queer people in myschool and becoming really good
friends with them.
I mean, it was mostly queerwomen that I was friends with in
high school and they were kindof like, I love them.
You know, I was kind of like, Iwas wanting to like, listen to
(23:43):
Britney Spears and Madonna.
And like, they were very muchinto like punk rock.
And so like I was gettingexcluded from things or not
feeling like, I feel like I'mthe odd man out still.
Like I'm the black sheep ofevery group.
So I just always still feel likeI'm not, I don't just like fit
in very easily.
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
So, so felt left out of grade 11 queer group, even
though...
I was seemingly included.
You
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
know, when I was teaching in yoga, like a lot of
yoga is a very, like it's not afeminine practice, but like
mostly women do yoga.
Again, I was like, sometimesfelt like, wow, I'm the only guy
in the group.
And it's so easy for them to alltalk about like yoga for
menstruation or like creatingcommunity groups for like women
to feel more empowered.
(24:35):
And I was like, well, I'm not apart of this because like, I'm
the guy in the group.
And so it would be even in thatthat I was like, ah, I just,
where's my people?
Like, I still feel like I'mdoing these things and I still
can't find my people.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Where are my people?
And if there's somethingparticular about gay men in more
recent time that supports thisidea that you'll always
experience the loneliness.
And one piece of evidence Ithink that you have is like, In
(25:08):
your work, you've been seeingother men struggle with this.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah, with loneliness, yeah, for sure.
I mean, I see it with my peoplethat I just know, friends and
stuff, right?
SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
Ah, so in my work and friend group, loneliness is
a challenge for a lot of us.
Okay, now we're gonna switchcolumns and think about evidence
that doesn't support the hotthought.
So things that suggest that youcould have a group of friends or
you won't always experienceloneliness.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
I have been a part of groups.
It just always, it doesn't feellike it lasts.
The other way that I've alsofelt about this, like when I
talk about like not fitting in,I'm like, that's okay.
And I do think it's like, what Italk about is like, I have this
weird inability to like, belike, oh, I'll conform to fit in
with the group.
(26:00):
So even in my work, there's abig like sociology aspect to it.
And like just about how we doconform and fit in.
And what I try to teach peopleis to be authentic, to be
themselves, to like do what Ido.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
Does that strive toward authenticity connect you
to people ever?
Is it ever a vehicle ofconnection?
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
Yeah.
I mean, it's the like in mywork, like I can't have a...
client come in and then beinauthentic and not, you know,
say how I feel or how they'remaking me feel.
Cause then I'm like, well, whatdo you like?
That's not my job, right?
The job is to be myself and totell them how I feel, ask for
them to tell me how they feel.
It does connect me to people,but I understand that level of
(26:46):
authenticity is, a lot of thetimes requires more one-on-one
situations or small groups orlike a yoga class or something
where like people are walkinginto that situation being like,
okay, we're going to talk aboutfeelings and emotions, not, you
know, it can't be at someone'sbirthday dinner where I'm like,
hey, so what's everyone'strauma, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
And that is a good point.
So you've got some really strongskills around authenticity,
right?
sharing feelings and emotionsand connection with people.
You literally know how tofoster, facilitate and nurture
connection.
And when you gave this exampleof walking into a party and you
(27:33):
say, I'm not gonna say, hey,what's everyone's trauma?
It made me think, I wonder ifthere's a blind spot there.
Have some skills been developedto the exclusion of others?
So for example, the skills herewould be more social or light
conversation.
Do you find that difficult?
SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
I do find that difficult.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Okay.
And is that what you're seeingin a lot of groups of friends
that they're always kind ofsurface level?
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, you know, whenI'm, you know, having that
feeling of like I don't fit inor whatever, I feel kind of on
the outside because I know a lotof it is just, you know, Hey,
what'd you do this weekend?
Well, it was fun.
What are you up to this week?
Right?
It's just very like externalthings is what most people talk
about.
SPEAKER_00 (28:21):
And what do you long to talk about?
I think there's a need here thatdoesn't get met of yours.
And it's not just about a groupof friends, but possibly wanting
to be seen, appreciated andmore.
What is the need you have?
SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
The way I see intimacy is when we can see each
other who we authentically arein that moment.
That is intimacy.
So like, if I say to you, howare you doing today?
And you actually say how youfeel instead of saying like,
good.
And there is a feeling of like,when I get that with someone, it
(29:05):
just feels like there's thisease, like my body can relax
because it's work for me to belike, because I have to think
about like, okay, what can wetalk about?
So
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
you feel at ease, perhaps intimate when people
share honestly.
I'm seeing in our conversation,and as I said, I went a bit off
script, but there are a numberof facets to your life and your
history that culminate in thiscurrent situation where you're
(29:35):
longing for connection for agroup.
Like there's this idea of thegroup and coming to terms with
not having that.
And now we're moving to one ofthe last columns, which is an
alternative thought.
This is an alternative to thephrase, to the hot thought,
which was I'll never have agroup of friends and I'll always
experience loneliness.
(29:56):
And I think one thing you'vealready said early on is I'm not
for everyone and that's okay.
So I put that down as analternative thought because you
already use that.
But I know, based on the sessionwe've had so far, that that
doesn't directly speak to thelonging for a group of friends.
(30:17):
And so what are alternativethoughts, things you can say to
yourself that respond to the hotthought?
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
I met some pretty amazing people who also do this
work.
uh who support me um and iremind myself that i'm like
there is a small group of peoplelike a small number of people in
this world that i admire so muchthat um i don't say like me but
(30:47):
like uh support me um and that'sreally fucking cool and i just
have to think about those newpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
Yes.
So there's a small group ofpeople whom I admire and they
like slash support me.
I like the word like, I thinkthat's nice.
We want to be liked.
I know, or I'm guessing in yourimagination, you wanted the
group you always had to be withgay men.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
There definitely is a longing for intimacy with men.
I've always, it's been easier toconnect with women and feel
safer around women.
Men is a bit of a differentsituation that I've always kind
of felt like men are going tofuck me over is the feeling.
There just is this longing toreally connect with men.
And I guess the alternativethought that I would also use to
(31:34):
that is that men are not good attalking about feelings and
emotions.
Just the majority of them, Idon't know what that number is,
but the majority of men aresocialized to not be good at
this.
So the statistics of me findinga group of men guy friends who
are like all going to want totalk about their feelings and
emotions is kind of low so likeit shouldn't it's not easy
(31:58):
because there's not a lot ofthem like you know yes i always
think about how especially withus as like queer men we you know
we feel really different fromstraight men and feel like you
know they're not safe and wejust have this like discomfort
with straight men right and i'mlike you know what those
(32:20):
straight guys are like more likeyou than you know because you
could get a group of guys allwatching drag race and there is
no difference between that groupof guys but besides maybe the
clothes that they're wearingthen the group of guys all
getting together to watchfootball no one is talking about
feelings usually people aredrinking like no one is talking
about external things it's justa very superficial friendship
(32:42):
which is fine but like The groupof straight guys are doing that
too.
They might just not be as gaydoing it, right?
Or maybe they haven't talked toeveryone in the group.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
Yeah.
So I've got a couple ofalternative thoughts based on
what you've said.
Okay, so I'm not for everyoneand that's okay.
There is a small group of peoplewhom I admire and they like
slash support me.
Men are not socialized to begood at talking about feelings
and...
that's important to me.
(33:17):
I'm rightly disappointed thatgay men aren't that different
from straight men.
Because I think that was a hopeyou had from grade seven even.
And I have a longing forconnection to men and that part
of me deserves self-compassion.
Is there anything about thegroup of friends being
overrated?
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I learned this
past year, I was a part of agroup of friends that And a lot
of this stuff happened a lot.
And I was like, I don't likebeing a part of this group of
friends.
And there was a moment, Iremember, where I was with not
just the group, but it was aparty where there was a ton of
(34:01):
people there.
And I was like, I am notenjoying myself.
I keep walking around and keeptrying to interact with other
people.
And I'm just not...
I'm not like, I'm not connectingwith anybody.
There's like too many peoplehere where I just feel almost
uncomfortable.
Like, of course, no one's goingto be like talking about the
things I want to talk about.
(34:21):
This is just not my space.
I do think it's overrated.
And I think a big part of it ispart of it is that we think that
the more friends we have, themore we're loved instead of
being like, no, it actuallytakes having intimacy with a
small handful of friends thatbecause you can't be like, Like
we all have a lot of friends andit's great to have lots of
people in our lives.
Right.
(34:41):
But I mean, you need to justhave a small group, like maybe
even one or two that you canopen up to be yourself around,
talk about your feelings,actually have support when
things are struggling, they'regoing to be there for you.
Like that's one or two people,maybe five tops.
Right.
But it's not fucking 30 peoplein your life.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Yes.
So you'll see that I added somethings to the alternative
thought column.
The last two things being beingpart of a group of friends comes
with the cost.
This doesn't actually work forme.
And intimacy with the smallgroup leads to feeling loved,
not having a big group.
I love this set of alternativethoughts.
(35:26):
Now, here's the hard part.
Which one do you believe themost that is most helpful?
for you to combat or counteractthe hot thought and that you
think that would mitigate someof the feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
I'm not for everyone and that's okay.
The lesson that I've learned inthis past year is the more
authentic you are, you're goingto have people not like you and
not even not like you, that'slike even feels too strong a
word, people that won't connectto you.
SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
Okay.
So if I expanded the alternativethought that you like best, it
would be, I'm not for everyoneand that's okay.
When you're vulnerable andauthentic, you will lose people.
SPEAKER_01 (36:04):
Is
SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
that fair to say?
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
And when you think about that thought, how do you
then rate your anger?
Two.
What about hostility?
One.
Frustration?
One.
Sadness?
A four.
Yeah.
And so how would you rate hurt?
(36:28):
Four.
And hopeless?
SPEAKER_02 (36:32):
A one.
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
Lonely?
I'll give that a
SPEAKER_02 (36:38):
three.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
So most things went down, but sadness went up.
And one of the ways I thinkabout this is when we contain
some of the more challengingfeelings, we have more space for
grief.
And I think your authentic selfknows very well that you're
(37:02):
hurting and that there's lots ofgrief to be had here.
And I know that you're alsogrieving an idea you had in your
mind about what acceptance andwhat an ideal community would
look like.
But you're also adjusting.
I think if I could even add toyour alternative thought, it
might be that my dream for whatconnection looks like has
(37:26):
changed and will continue tochange.
As you look at your chart, whatare your thoughts?
What are your reflections?
I mean, you spewed out youralternative thought way in the
beginning.
So was there anything gained inthis process?
And it's okay if it's not, butI'm curious if anything shifted
(37:47):
in you, if there were newrealizations.
SPEAKER_02 (37:50):
It's interesting to put all this into a chart and
talk about it with someone.
I guess I feel...
really proud that i like becausethis is okay so everything we
put in this chart this has beenlike this has been my last year
yeah and like there was a lot ofstuff that happened this last
(38:11):
year that was to this situationthat allowed me to learn all
these things like something ithought of like oh this is my
last year and like i'm reallyproud because that last column
is kind of where I'm at rightnow in my life.
And that feels really good whenthe first few months of this
year was that second column formonths.
(38:33):
And so that's really wonderful
SPEAKER_00 (38:35):
that I got there.
It kind of shows your progressin that way.
Thanks so much, Vance.
Your sharing has got me thinkingabout how we might have certain
dreams that help us get throughdifficult times.
that it gets better campaign.
It rings in my mind sometimesbecause I think when I was
(38:57):
younger and also stuck in aplace that would have run true
for me because I would haveimagined myself also having
like, oh, a gay group offriends.
And then you get older and yourealize like, you could have
friends, but the way youunderstand them shifts a bit.
And that comes with grief,adjustment, recalibration,
(39:17):
authenticity, To hear thatthat's been your last year
brings out a lot of compassionbecause I'm just thinking, whoa,
it's not been an easy year,Vance.
Yeah.
Vance, I'm going to leave itthere for today.
Thank you for being on a CBTDive.
It was a pleasure to have you.
Thank you.
And that's the CBT Dive fortoday.
(39:37):
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and you can
follow us on social media.
The CBT dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRaheem Thaur.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:26):
How are you today?
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
I'm feeling pretty good.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
I am pretty good.
For our listeners, I want to saya little bit about you before we
jump into our thought record.
Vance is a sex and intimacycoach.
He is 34, lives in Toronto, buthe's originally a prairie boy
from Saskatchewan.
He's also a yoga teacher andreally appreciates movement,
(00:50):
dance, and all things embodied.
Vance, I really would like foryou to share a bit about what it
means to be a sex and intimacycoach.
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
Yeah, thanks.
So I work with mostly queerfolks, socialized men, to be
able to find deeper connectionand pleasure by practicing
skills with me.
So the somatic part of it isthat I practice emotional and
sexual skills with clients inreal time with me authentically
(01:23):
with boundaries so that they cansee how it feels in their body
to feel connection or maybe feeldisconnected or feel shame and
just see how those things showup and how we can come back into
connection.
So it's a very experientialpractice, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
It absolutely does make sense.
And I think people might hearthat and wonder if that involves
sex, but you did say withboundaries.
How do you talk about boundarieswith people?
SPEAKER_02 (01:53):
Like within my work, I'm very clear within my
boundaries of the things that wewill not be doing.
So it's funny when you mention,do I have sex?
And it's like, Like intimacy,right?
Like the goal is connection andintimacy.
So the boundaries are that likeclothes stay on.
I don't kiss.
I don't do penetration.
I don't do oral with clients,but we can use touch, right?
So we might do things likecuddling.
(02:14):
We can build arousal, maybe withrole play.
We do spanking.
We can play around BDSM stuff,right?
So we can use all those withinthose boundaries.
And so the thing with sex islike, I get a lot of clients who
are like, oh, but I would reallylove to bottom and I want to
work on that and see how thatfeels or something.
And I'm like, great and and ican help you with skills about
how to bottom but the thing islike the feeling is what we want
(02:37):
to work on and building arousalso we can do very sexual things
to create that feeling becausemaybe bottoming with someone who
doesn't want that isn't going tofeel good anyways right and so
that's like the lesson withinboundaries is like we're not
working on creating a specificsituation.
We're focusing on creating afeeling within each other, which
(03:00):
is eroticism, arousal,connection, safety.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Yeah.
I love that so much.
I really appreciate thatclarification.
And for you Vance, I'm curiousto know how does movement and
touch how do they influence orimpact your own mental health?
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
The one of the things that I've done every day,
so since I was like 18, is I getup and I dance in the morning,
but it's like a practice to getme out of my head and into my
body.
And so the goal of it is like,yeah, I notice when I'm in that
place where I feel really freewith my dancing and I'm like,
oh, I've moved out of that placeand I haven't changed anything
(03:39):
besides just coming into my bodyand calming my nervous system
down, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
And as you talk about that, I can't help but
make a connection here betweenthe way you describe your work
as a practice of inclusion andcare for people.
And yet, in the situation we'regoing to describe today or we're
going to explore, it is ascenario where you feel excluded
(04:10):
or left out.
I'm gonna go ahead and share myscreen.
You'll see a thought record showup.
So on the left side, we've gotthe situation column.
Now that is a situation thatactivates difficult feelings.
So prior to this recording, wehad identified that one thing
(04:31):
that's difficult or brings up alot for you is when you might
see a social media post about aparty that you weren't invited
to.
This is something that'shappened to you a couple of
times, I'm guessing.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Yeah, I mean, I've gone through a lot of therapy
and I do know that this is like,I know where this comes from.
Like, I'm very self-aware of thefact that I was left out a lot
when I was a kid.
And there was a few years therewhen I was a teenager where I
had no friends and also wasstruggling with family stuff.
So like being alone and notfeeling a part of something is
(05:09):
my trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And so on the one hand, it'svery useful to know where
something comes from, what thehistory of that particular thing
is.
But also there's value inthinking, OK, when it shows up,
what do I what am I going to do?
Right.
Because that isn't as clear cut.
And so hopefully a thoughtrecord will help you identify
(05:31):
the things that go on in yourmind.
when these difficult feelingscome up in a situation where you
feel left out and then you canconsider what an alternative
thought might be.
So let's, I'm gonna ask you tothink about a situation where
you felt triggered because youwere left out or imagine
(05:52):
yourself seeing the social mediapost and that's when you realize
there was something thatoccurred that you were not
invited to.
Vance, what were you feelingwhen you saw the post?
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Anger?
I feel sad.
I actually, like, I go intofight or flight.
Like, in the initial moment is avery, like, fuck them.
You know, like, that's theinitial what happens in that
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah.
And so the fuck them meansanger, but also, like,
hostility.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And frustration.
UNKNOWN (06:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Would that be frustration?
I just want to make sure I'm notmaking, putting feelings in your
heart.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
I noticed my mind going into this place of like,
oh, I'm never going to havefriends.
People are never going to likeme.
I'm never going to figure thisout.
Like I'm never going to be apart of a group of friends.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
And when you say I'm never going to be, I'm thinking
hopelessness.
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
yeah.
And the content of what you'resaying makes me think about
loneliness or isolation.
Yeah, loneliness for sure.
And you're feeling sad?
And I'm guessing you're alsofeeling hurt.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Oh, totally.
So we've got a good list offeelings here.
Anger, hostility, frustrated orfrustration, sad, hurt,
hopeless, lonely.
Let's go through and let's tryto rate each of these on a scale
of one to 10.
So when you see the social mediapost, how would you rate your
anger?
Probably a
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
10.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Yeah.
And hostility?
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
Eight.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
And frustrated?
Eight.
Okay.
And sad?
Two.
Hurt?
Ten.
Hopeless?
Seven.
And lonely?
I'll say eight.
All right.
I'm seeing the feelings arepretty strong.
What do you do in that moment?
SPEAKER_02 (07:47):
I might have a moment with myself.
Like I kind of lose it and havea bit of like losing my temper.
Like, I'll say for example, onetime when this happened, I broke
my coffee table.
So it just feels like, yeah.
So it feels like I just need toget the energy out in the
(08:09):
initial moment.
It just has this feeling oflike, fuck.
And in that moment, I punched mycoffee table and broke it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Yeah.
So you'd redirect the aggressiontoward an object.
You know, that's pretty, thatsounds pretty good.
It's quite healthy, you know?
Yeah.
Now, the next column isautomatic thoughts.
So these are the thoughts thatcome up for you when you see the
social media posts and you feelangry, frustrated, hurt,
(08:36):
hopeless, lonely.
And you already began talkingabout some of these.
Like, for example, one of thethings you said was, I'll never
have a group of friends.
Was that it?
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
So what are the other thoughts that come up for
you?
Fuck them.
Yeah.
and I just want to make factthem a full sentence.
So if I were to say like, Ireally hate them or I'm really
angry with them, would thatwork?
SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That works.
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
And when you say there, I'm really angry at them.
Right.
That's like a stance.
And I'm thinking if I were toturn that into a statement that
is about them, as opposed to howyou're feeling, I wonder if the
statement would be, um, theyhurt me on purpose or they're
vindictive or they'reinconsiderate.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
I mean, definitely inconsiderate when I can like
rationally think about it.
Like I feel really hurt that itfelt like I didn't matter.
So the thought here is like, I
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
didn't matter.
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
Yeah.
Like you don't even care aboutme.
You didn't even think about me.
Are
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
these newer friends that you would just say people,
or would you say these, this ismy, These are friends, people
that I thought were friends ofmine.
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yeah, friends for sure.
I mean, it can still be like,I'll notice it too now.
Like if I just see people that Idon't know, like I used to
always do this with groups ofgay men all hanging together
because it is a very likeprevalent thing on social media
of like the.
10 plus gay guys that gettogether every weekend or doing
(10:21):
dinner parties of at least 10people.
And I'm like, how the fuck dothey do that?
I don't even have two friends.
You know what I mean?
I could never invite that manypeople to a thing.
And so that would bother me ortrigger me.
But when it's someone that is myfriend, yeah, that is the
intense trigger.
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
So they're inconsiderate.
I'll never have a group offriends.
I didn't matter.
to my friends when they weremaking a plan.
So when you say, I'll never havea group of friends, I think
there's more packed into that.
Do you mind telling me a bitabout your experience with
friendships?
(11:02):
Have they been hard to maintainin your experience?
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
So I'm from Saskatchewan, right?
And I'm from rural Saskatchewanwhere I went to school with the
same kids, kindergarten andgrade eight.
So there was the same, like, Ithink there was like 12 or 13 of
us.
We're all like pretty close andeveryone is friends.
And around like grade seven,things shifted.
And my theory is because I thinkwe're starting to be like young
adults and maybe my queernessstarted to be more like they're
(11:29):
more aware of it, of thedifference of it.
And so it just like the entireclass, just everyone just
started treating me differently,like treating me differently.
Like they started bullying me.
Right.
So like it was leaving me out ofthings.
I wasn't included in thingsanymore.
Everyone was mean to mephysically and mentally abusive.
And so that was a moment where Inever felt like it was a part of
(11:50):
anything.
And then I felt like I felt likethis throughout my whole life
where I've noticed how I do notreally fit in with a group.
And some of it, I think it'sjust like my psychology from
that trauma is that I feel like,oh, I'm not as important.
I don't fit in with this group.
Like, I don't have this groupthat's going to call on me all
the time to like, hey, we'redoing this this weekend.
(12:12):
We're doing that.
When it comes to the I'll neverhave a group of friends, I think
that thought started to come ina lot more in the last few years
where like, you know, now I'm 34and I'm like, wow, this is gonna
be like, I'm gonna be 40 andstill not really have a group of
friends.
So then it starts to like thatfeeling of, I can't believe I'm
still dealing with this.
Like, oh, this is kind of likethe evidence is starting to show
(12:34):
that I will never have a groupof friends.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
And what has it meant to try and have a group of
friends?
Or what would it say about youif you were to have a group of
friends?
Like the 10 people you invite toa dinner party,
SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
it would mean that I feel like I'm a part of
something, that I'm included.
There has been times that I havebeen within a group, but it
always seems to like, I stilljust don't feel like I fit in.
And there are these moments, butthen I feel like as soon as
people start to get to know me,I start to get pushed out of the
group.
(13:11):
And so when I'm in the group, Ifeel like, wow, this is so
great.
Like, I'm so happy.
I love being a part of thisgroup.
but then it like doesn't seem tolast.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
I imagine you've, that's registered in your psyche
in some way.
So when people get to know me,you might say to yourself,
they'll inevitably push me away.
Is that how you think about it?
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
I don't know if I like think that clearly with it,
but I do notice that like inrelationships, certain
relationships, I'll notice likemaybe I get more anxious
sometimes.
Because I'm like, oh, they'renot going to stick around.
They're going to leave.
Or, you know, when I'm a part ofthat group, I'm like careful
with who, like how I expressmyself and how I am because
(13:57):
there is this like subconsciousfeeling of like, oh, don't be
too much because then you'regoing to lose it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Would you say like, if I'm too much, I'll scare
people away?
SPEAKER_02 (14:06):
Yeah.
And I totally, I know that I do.
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
So what does being too much mean?
Is it talking about a particularthing?
interest hobby a lot?
Is it sharing personal thoughtsor beliefs about something?
What does it mean to be toomuch?
SPEAKER_02 (14:22):
I mean, even when I, what I just said about when all
my classmates started or stoppedhanging out with me, stopped
liking me.
Yes.
My queerness was too muchbecause they didn't know how to
handle that.
Like I grew up in a place thatwas so conservative and very
redneck.
And so being gay was too much.
That was too much for people tohandle.
(14:43):
Right.
But that's okay.
And so like, Like, now I notice,like, presently, I notice that,
you know, even when I talk aboutbeing a sex coach, or doing sex
work, or whatever, or just beingsexually open, I know that
triggers people, because it istoo much for people, because,
like, it triggers their ownshame with it.
(15:03):
One of the reasons why Idon't...
I'm not for everyone, and Iunderstand that, is because...
I'm so sensitive that it'sreally hard for me to be
inauthentic.
It's really hard for me to be aslike a lot of men have learned
to like, Oh, just be stoic.
Don't say anything.
(15:24):
Don't be emotional.
Don't be sensitive.
Right.
Like those are the messages welearn.
And like, I learned that too,but, uh, apparently like it
didn't work for me and I'm stilllike this sensitive, emotional
person.
And so if I'm around a group ofguys, men who, uh, are not
comfortable with feelings, thenI am too much for them.
But the thing is, I have to bethat, and instead of being like,
(15:48):
oh, okay, I'll change for youguys and I'll make you more
comfortable, I have to just bemyself and be like, that's okay.
This is not a relationship Iwanna be in that asks us to
change who we are to be friendsor whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
You've said some really interesting things.
So one was I was trying tofigure out what too much looks
like in your adult self.
And it sounds like it's abouttalking about feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
It's a big one, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
It's a big one.
And that scares people away.
The other thing you said was mywork activates shame in other
people.
That's really fascinating.
Can you tell me just a littlebit more about how you see that
happening?
Because I think you're right.
I'm just curious about thatprocess.
SPEAKER_02 (16:44):
When I tell people what I do, there usually is
like, oh, well, that's crazy.
Or like, that's urgent,different, right?
I shouldn't say crazy, but wewere like, oh, wow, that's like,
what is that or whatever?
And when I start to kind of talkabout it, I noticed that like
the conversation ends, not foreverybody, but like I noticed
some people will be like, Idon't even ask about it because
like, I don't even want to talkabout it.
(17:05):
Because if I start talking aboutlike sex and shame and shame
with sex, like someone, which alot of people, we all have shame
involving sex.
It's just varying degrees.
And so if someone hasn't dealtwith that, that's just going to
make them uncomfortable.
So why would I or why would thatperson would be like, oh, please
tell me more.
I would love to hear more aboutyour work or how is work going?
(17:27):
Like it just kind of becomes athing of like, oh, I just don't
talk about that.
And so to me, it actually feelslike what I notice is it feels
like people aren't beingsupportive.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
I hear that.
Thank you for clarifying that.
It really gives me a sense ofthe isolation that comes with
having done a certain amount ofpsychological work.
I think a lot of people canappreciate that if they're in
therapy, talking about theirfamily traumas or attachment
(18:00):
issues, traumas, and no one elsein their family has done that
work, that personal growth endsup being very isolating.
And I'm seeing that kind ofparallel here.
But in this context, it's morewith other gay men.
And I'm guessing your experiencebeginning in seventh grade
(18:25):
propelled you toward comfortwith self, dealing with shame
and dealing like challengingyour own shame kind of head on.
And so when you say I'll neverhave a group of friends, I'm
thinking if I were to expandthat, it might be that you're
you're worried, you'll neverhave a group of friends who
(18:47):
understand you.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
Now, I want to go back to this idea of the group
of friends.
Since we all saw the showfriends i think we've all wanted
a group of friends you know andnot just that show but you know
many shows and then we all sawqueer as folk and we saw the l
word and any major television orshow with like high school kids
(19:15):
and like their core group of
SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
friends
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
yeah It's just so present.
It's such a present trope.
And I think a lot of us long forthat.
SPEAKER_02 (19:22):
But I also think that there is a thing with, I
mean, we have this obsession.
There is this overcompensating.
So like being famous or likehaving a lot of followers or
something or having as manypeople at your birthday party as
possible to show on social mediabecomes a thing of like, I'm not
worthy of love.
(19:42):
So I have to show that like Ihave love.
X amount of people that love meinstead of, even if it's not
like deep friendships, right?
It's more about like, wow, if Ifill my life with like a large
group of people all the time, Iwill feel loved.
But I think it's like ainauthentic, very surface level
love that you kind of need to bewith those people all the time
(20:05):
to feel that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
Yeah.
And you saying it that way, Iimagine feels so threatening to
so many people, right?
Yeah.
And so in a way, I think one ofyour other thoughts here that is
not quite at the surface butmight be underneath is that
people can't handle some of thethings I like to talk about or
(20:28):
I'm aware of.
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Yeah.
People can't handle the truth.
Yeah.
The kinds of honesty.
So people can't handle the kindsof honesty and analysis I bring
about.
I'm going to say to casualconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
You did say like, I'm almost 40 and I don't have
this group.
And so if you don't have thisgroup, what will that mean for
your life?
SPEAKER_02 (21:01):
Cause when I'm like 22 and this is happening, you
know, you feel like you got alot of time to like find that
group of friends.
But then when you're 34, you'relike, oh my God, six years, like
what if I'm 40?
And like, I still don't havethis, right?
And then it's, to me, thethought is, wow, there's
something wrong with me.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
It feels like maybe a bit more high stakes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Yeah, like I'll say like when I'm in the moment, in
the triggered moment of mynervous system is so activated,
I do have this thought.
And this is when like, I'mreally activated.
I do have this thought of like-If I'm still doing this when I'm
50, I don't want to be doingthis.
This is not a life worth living.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
It gets to a dark place.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:39):
Yeah.
And one of your thoughts here isI'll be alone forever.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
And you're also thinking that wouldn't be a life
worth living.
That's a heavy thing.
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
going to put that down because I want to honor
that.
Like that is a very, it's a veryvulnerable thing.
to put out there.
And I just, yeah, I want to justhold it.
It shows me how dire it can feelat times, the loneliness.
So as I look at your automaticthoughts column, the next thing
(22:13):
I was going to ask is what isthe most salient thought, like
the most prominent one thatdrives a lot of these difficult
feelings?
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Like I'm lonely is the thought.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
Yeah.
And I'll never have a, have agroup of friends.
I'm going back to the first oneand I'll always experience
loneliness.
SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
Does that fit?
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
If I were to make that the bold and like, if I was
to make that bolder and I said,that is the hot thought, meaning
that's the one, um, that drivesa lot of the difficult feelings.
Would you say that's the thoughtthat's crossing your mind?
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Okay.
So I'll never have a group offriends and I'll always
experience loneliness.
You've already given me someevidence that supports this.
I've been trying since gradeseven.
Right?
That's one of the things you hadsaid.
So that's hard.
Have you been part of othergroups that have then excluded
you beyond the one that you'rementioning here?
(23:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:21):
I mean, I think to...
varying degrees.
Like I'll say like when I was ingrade 11, I, I ended up meeting
a bunch of queer people in myschool and becoming really good
friends with them.
I mean, it was mostly queerwomen that I was friends with in
high school and they were kindof like, I love them.
You know, I was kind of like, Iwas wanting to like, listen to
(23:43):
Britney Spears and Madonna.
And like, they were very muchinto like punk rock.
And so like I was gettingexcluded from things or not
feeling like, I feel like I'mthe odd man out still.
Like I'm the black sheep ofevery group.
So I just always still feel likeI'm not, I don't just like fit
in very easily.
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
So, so felt left out of grade 11 queer group, even
though...
I was seemingly included.
You
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
know, when I was teaching in yoga, like a lot of
yoga is a very, like it's not afeminine practice, but like
mostly women do yoga.
Again, I was like, sometimesfelt like, wow, I'm the only guy
in the group.
And it's so easy for them to alltalk about like yoga for
menstruation or like creatingcommunity groups for like women
to feel more empowered.
(24:35):
And I was like, well, I'm not apart of this because like, I'm
the guy in the group.
And so it would be even in thatthat I was like, ah, I just,
where's my people?
Like, I still feel like I'mdoing these things and I still
can't find my people.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Where are my people?
And if there's somethingparticular about gay men in more
recent time that supports thisidea that you'll always
experience the loneliness.
And one piece of evidence Ithink that you have is like, In
(25:08):
your work, you've been seeingother men struggle with this.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah, with loneliness, yeah, for sure.
I mean, I see it with my peoplethat I just know, friends and
stuff, right?
SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
Ah, so in my work and friend group, loneliness is
a challenge for a lot of us.
Okay, now we're gonna switchcolumns and think about evidence
that doesn't support the hotthought.
So things that suggest that youcould have a group of friends or
you won't always experienceloneliness.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
I have been a part of groups.
It just always, it doesn't feellike it lasts.
The other way that I've alsofelt about this, like when I
talk about like not fitting in,I'm like, that's okay.
And I do think it's like, what Italk about is like, I have this
weird inability to like, belike, oh, I'll conform to fit in
with the group.
(26:00):
So even in my work, there's abig like sociology aspect to it.
And like just about how we doconform and fit in.
And what I try to teach peopleis to be authentic, to be
themselves, to like do what Ido.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
Does that strive toward authenticity connect you
to people ever?
Is it ever a vehicle ofconnection?
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
Yeah.
I mean, it's the like in mywork, like I can't have a...
client come in and then beinauthentic and not, you know,
say how I feel or how they'remaking me feel.
Cause then I'm like, well, whatdo you like?
That's not my job, right?
The job is to be myself and totell them how I feel, ask for
them to tell me how they feel.
It does connect me to people,but I understand that level of
(26:46):
authenticity is, a lot of thetimes requires more one-on-one
situations or small groups orlike a yoga class or something
where like people are walkinginto that situation being like,
okay, we're going to talk aboutfeelings and emotions, not, you
know, it can't be at someone'sbirthday dinner where I'm like,
hey, so what's everyone'strauma, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
And that is a good point.
So you've got some really strongskills around authenticity,
right?
sharing feelings and emotionsand connection with people.
You literally know how tofoster, facilitate and nurture
connection.
And when you gave this exampleof walking into a party and you
(27:33):
say, I'm not gonna say, hey,what's everyone's trauma?
It made me think, I wonder ifthere's a blind spot there.
Have some skills been developedto the exclusion of others?
So for example, the skills herewould be more social or light
conversation.
Do you find that difficult?
SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
I do find that difficult.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Okay.
And is that what you're seeingin a lot of groups of friends
that they're always kind ofsurface level?
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, you know, whenI'm, you know, having that
feeling of like I don't fit inor whatever, I feel kind of on
the outside because I know a lotof it is just, you know, Hey,
what'd you do this weekend?
Well, it was fun.
What are you up to this week?
Right?
It's just very like externalthings is what most people talk
about.
SPEAKER_00 (28:21):
And what do you long to talk about?
I think there's a need here thatdoesn't get met of yours.
And it's not just about a groupof friends, but possibly wanting
to be seen, appreciated andmore.
What is the need you have?
SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
The way I see intimacy is when we can see each
other who we authentically arein that moment.
That is intimacy.
So like, if I say to you, howare you doing today?
And you actually say how youfeel instead of saying like,
good.
And there is a feeling of like,when I get that with someone, it
(29:05):
just feels like there's thisease, like my body can relax
because it's work for me to belike, because I have to think
about like, okay, what can wetalk about?
So
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
you feel at ease, perhaps intimate when people
share honestly.
I'm seeing in our conversation,and as I said, I went a bit off
script, but there are a numberof facets to your life and your
history that culminate in thiscurrent situation where you're
(29:35):
longing for connection for agroup.
Like there's this idea of thegroup and coming to terms with
not having that.
And now we're moving to one ofthe last columns, which is an
alternative thought.
This is an alternative to thephrase, to the hot thought,
which was I'll never have agroup of friends and I'll always
experience loneliness.
(29:56):
And I think one thing you'vealready said early on is I'm not
for everyone and that's okay.
So I put that down as analternative thought because you
already use that.
But I know, based on the sessionwe've had so far, that that
doesn't directly speak to thelonging for a group of friends.
(30:17):
And so what are alternativethoughts, things you can say to
yourself that respond to the hotthought?
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
I met some pretty amazing people who also do this
work.
uh who support me um and iremind myself that i'm like
there is a small group of peoplelike a small number of people in
this world that i admire so muchthat um i don't say like me but
(30:47):
like uh support me um and that'sreally fucking cool and i just
have to think about those newpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
Yes.
So there's a small group ofpeople whom I admire and they
like slash support me.
I like the word like, I thinkthat's nice.
We want to be liked.
I know, or I'm guessing in yourimagination, you wanted the
group you always had to be withgay men.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
There definitely is a longing for intimacy with men.
I've always, it's been easier toconnect with women and feel
safer around women.
Men is a bit of a differentsituation that I've always kind
of felt like men are going tofuck me over is the feeling.
There just is this longing toreally connect with men.
And I guess the alternativethought that I would also use to
(31:34):
that is that men are not good attalking about feelings and
emotions.
Just the majority of them, Idon't know what that number is,
but the majority of men aresocialized to not be good at
this.
So the statistics of me findinga group of men guy friends who
are like all going to want totalk about their feelings and
emotions is kind of low so likeit shouldn't it's not easy
(31:58):
because there's not a lot ofthem like you know yes i always
think about how especially withus as like queer men we you know
we feel really different fromstraight men and feel like you
know they're not safe and wejust have this like discomfort
with straight men right and i'mlike you know what those
(32:20):
straight guys are like more likeyou than you know because you
could get a group of guys allwatching drag race and there is
no difference between that groupof guys but besides maybe the
clothes that they're wearingthen the group of guys all
getting together to watchfootball no one is talking about
feelings usually people aredrinking like no one is talking
about external things it's justa very superficial friendship
(32:42):
which is fine but like The groupof straight guys are doing that
too.
They might just not be as gaydoing it, right?
Or maybe they haven't talked toeveryone in the group.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
Yeah.
So I've got a couple ofalternative thoughts based on
what you've said.
Okay, so I'm not for everyoneand that's okay.
There is a small group of peoplewhom I admire and they like
slash support me.
Men are not socialized to begood at talking about feelings
and...
that's important to me.
(33:17):
I'm rightly disappointed thatgay men aren't that different
from straight men.
Because I think that was a hopeyou had from grade seven even.
And I have a longing forconnection to men and that part
of me deserves self-compassion.
Is there anything about thegroup of friends being
overrated?
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I learned this
past year, I was a part of agroup of friends that And a lot
of this stuff happened a lot.
And I was like, I don't likebeing a part of this group of
friends.
And there was a moment, Iremember, where I was with not
just the group, but it was aparty where there was a ton of
(34:01):
people there.
And I was like, I am notenjoying myself.
I keep walking around and keeptrying to interact with other
people.
And I'm just not...
I'm not like, I'm not connectingwith anybody.
There's like too many peoplehere where I just feel almost
uncomfortable.
Like, of course, no one's goingto be like talking about the
things I want to talk about.
(34:21):
This is just not my space.
I do think it's overrated.
And I think a big part of it ispart of it is that we think that
the more friends we have, themore we're loved instead of
being like, no, it actuallytakes having intimacy with a
small handful of friends thatbecause you can't be like, Like
we all have a lot of friends andit's great to have lots of
people in our lives.
Right.
(34:41):
But I mean, you need to justhave a small group, like maybe
even one or two that you canopen up to be yourself around,
talk about your feelings,actually have support when
things are struggling, they'regoing to be there for you.
Like that's one or two people,maybe five tops.
Right.
But it's not fucking 30 peoplein your life.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Yes.
So you'll see that I added somethings to the alternative
thought column.
The last two things being beingpart of a group of friends comes
with the cost.
This doesn't actually work forme.
And intimacy with the smallgroup leads to feeling loved,
not having a big group.
I love this set of alternativethoughts.
(35:26):
Now, here's the hard part.
Which one do you believe themost that is most helpful?
for you to combat or counteractthe hot thought and that you
think that would mitigate someof the feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
I'm not for everyone and that's okay.
The lesson that I've learned inthis past year is the more
authentic you are, you're goingto have people not like you and
not even not like you, that'slike even feels too strong a
word, people that won't connectto you.
SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
Okay.
So if I expanded the alternativethought that you like best, it
would be, I'm not for everyoneand that's okay.
When you're vulnerable andauthentic, you will lose people.
SPEAKER_01 (36:04):
Is
SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
that fair to say?
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
And when you think about that thought, how do you
then rate your anger?
Two.
What about hostility?
One.
Frustration?
One.
Sadness?
A four.
Yeah.
And so how would you rate hurt?
(36:28):
Four.
And hopeless?
SPEAKER_02 (36:32):
A one.
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
Lonely?
I'll give that a
SPEAKER_02 (36:38):
three.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
So most things went down, but sadness went up.
And one of the ways I thinkabout this is when we contain
some of the more challengingfeelings, we have more space for
grief.
And I think your authentic selfknows very well that you're
(37:02):
hurting and that there's lots ofgrief to be had here.
And I know that you're alsogrieving an idea you had in your
mind about what acceptance andwhat an ideal community would
look like.
But you're also adjusting.
I think if I could even add toyour alternative thought, it
might be that my dream for whatconnection looks like has
(37:26):
changed and will continue tochange.
As you look at your chart, whatare your thoughts?
What are your reflections?
I mean, you spewed out youralternative thought way in the
beginning.
So was there anything gained inthis process?
And it's okay if it's not, butI'm curious if anything shifted
(37:47):
in you, if there were newrealizations.
SPEAKER_02 (37:50):
It's interesting to put all this into a chart and
talk about it with someone.
I guess I feel...
really proud that i like becausethis is okay so everything we
put in this chart this has beenlike this has been my last year
yeah and like there was a lot ofstuff that happened this last
(38:11):
year that was to this situationthat allowed me to learn all
these things like something ithought of like oh this is my
last year and like i'm reallyproud because that last column
is kind of where I'm at rightnow in my life.
And that feels really good whenthe first few months of this
year was that second column formonths.
(38:33):
And so that's really wonderful
SPEAKER_00 (38:35):
that I got there.
It kind of shows your progressin that way.
Thanks so much, Vance.
Your sharing has got me thinkingabout how we might have certain
dreams that help us get throughdifficult times.
that it gets better campaign.
It rings in my mind sometimesbecause I think when I was
(38:57):
younger and also stuck in aplace that would have run true
for me because I would haveimagined myself also having
like, oh, a gay group offriends.
And then you get older and yourealize like, you could have
friends, but the way youunderstand them shifts a bit.
And that comes with grief,adjustment, recalibration,
(39:17):
authenticity, To hear thatthat's been your last year
brings out a lot of compassionbecause I'm just thinking, whoa,
it's not been an easy year,Vance.
Yeah.
Vance, I'm going to leave itthere for today.
Thank you for being on a CBTDive.
It was a pleasure to have you.
Thank you.
And that's the CBT Dive fortoday.
(39:37):
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and you can
follow us on social media.
The CBT dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
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