April 2, 2024 • 40 mins
Psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawer and Riz discuss Riz’s travel adventures and how they have led to unique stressors and insights into his relationship with money. Riz shares situations that have brought up difficult feelings, such as feeling cheated and disappointed when spending money on experiences that don't meet his expectations.
Rahim helps Riz identify his automatic thoughts and behaviors that arise in these situations, including self-criticism and questioning his choices. Overall, this conversation explores the complex emotions and rumination surrounding money and personal experiences.
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar, and each week I
walk a guest through applyingCBT skills to real-world
situations.
(00:21):
It's good to see you today.
Riz has been traveling for 13months with his partner, and the
impetus of travel was...
in reaction to or in response tohis family of origin who has
often had big dreams but hasn'thad the opportunity to act on
them.
So through this journey, one ofthe things that's come up for
(00:44):
you, Riz, has been about yourrelationship to money.
So you've had some situationscome up recently.
I'm going to put them into athought record and then I'm
going to share my screen so thatthe viewers can see it.
And what I'd like us to do isreally think about zeroing in on
(01:04):
a situation that's brought upsome really difficult feelings
for you around money.
And prior to this recording, youhave given me some insight into
what that could look like.
So a thought record is issomething that's designed to
help you look at a situation ina linear way.
(01:25):
And we use thought records, notwhen we have a simple problem to
solve, but rather when wesuspect that there's unhelpful
thought patterns at play.
So the situation is I go to arestaurant and I eat something
that I could have made bettermyself.
(01:45):
and you feel cheated.
So this feeling of cheated comesup.
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
In the context of long-term traveling, where part
of the traveling involves, youknow, to save money, you're not
always eating out.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Part of what you're saying is jumping ahead.
So I'm just going to make a notehere that says, under automatic
thoughts, that says saving moneyis part of...
The travel plan.
If I were to go to the nextcolumn, this is our feelings
(02:20):
list.
Okay.
These are all the feelings thatcome up when you think about
this situation of going to arestaurant, you eat something
and you're like, oh, this is notgreat.
I could have made this better athome.
Right.
So you're already saying one ofthe feelings you have is that
you feel cheated.
So in the feelings column, I'mgoing to write down the word
(02:41):
cheated.
What are the other feelings thatare coming up for you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Slight unjust for sure.
Unhappiness, sadness as well.
I become angry at myself anddisappointed at myself that I
wouldn't make a decision likethis when I could have done it
differently.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
Okay.
So I really like thatdescription because I got the
other feeling words out ofthere.
It sounded like...
angry or anger was prominent.
And that leads to beingself-critical, right?
I could have done this better adifferent way.
The way you described it, itsounded like there was a feeling
(03:21):
of a failure that was alsopresent.
Would that be accurate?
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah.
If you're in the situation,failure of not having foreseen
what would have happened,knowing who I am as a person and
knowing maybe my limitationswhen it comes to money and these
aspects of it, like not havingjust diverted to what would have
been the logical path, given howI react to money and my
(03:49):
relationship to money.
So definitely failure would be abig point.
SPEAKER_02 (03:55):
Okay.
And as you're saying that in theautomatic thought column, I'm
already skipping ahead and I'mwriting down, I should be able
to foresee, help me finish thatsentence.
SPEAKER_00 (04:07):
I should be able to have foreseen what my reaction
would have been because I'vegone through this before.
Like, why do I keep going backif I know this is what's going
to happen and I'm going to haveall of these negative feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Right.
So another feeling that's comingout clear is frustrated or
frustration.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah.
Are you also
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
feeling embarrassed or humiliated or overwhelmed?
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Overwhelmed, for sure.
There's shame, I would say.
Embarrassment and shame.
That comes after.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
When you say shame, I wonder if it also is, if
there's a kind of loathing, likeself-loathing.
Shame to me says I'm inferior orI'm not good enough, but
loathing is kind of like I don'tlike myself.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
There's both.
There's both aspects of it.
Like the shame is revolvedaround like, why am I feeling
these things?
And then the loathing is like,why is this me?
SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
Right, right.
So I want to clarify somethinghere.
There are actually twosituations that you're talking
about.
One is when you first feelcheated, right?
So it's gone to a restaurant.
and you take your first fewbites of something and you're
(05:37):
like, you know what, this isn'tthe jam.
I could have done this better athome, right?
So the other one seems to beafter the event, which is when
you feel further upset orfurther frustrated that you got
(05:59):
upset in the first place And Idon't know, do the same mental
gymnastics.
Yeah.
So a couple more questions here.
Do you, they're feelingquestions.
Do you think there's a feelingof fear or anxiety?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
I would say yes.
Fear, which is fear.
The fear of like, if I keepmaking these decisions, whatever
little money I do have is goingto be gone.
The fear is representative inthat, like, I'm going to end up
how, my parents ended up wherethere's going to be struggle.
And this is exactly what I'mtrying to avoid.
I don't want to have thisstruggle.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
Right.
Okay.
So I put down a couple of wordshere and I just want to explain
them.
So in the feelings list, Itotally get that.
What you're saying here is thatfear is not so, it's not so
prominent, right?
I get that.
And so, but I think it's usefulto list that.
(06:59):
And in brackets, I put fear ofscarcity because that's, I
think, the way I heard it,right?
Yep, yep.
And there's always with fear,there's a bit of anxiety, right?
So it doesn't have to be superpresent.
It's just there because anxietyin its protective function is
almost always present when wethink there's a threat in our
(07:19):
environment.
So fear and anxiety kind of gotogether.
And then there's a bit of grief,I think.
You can correct me if I'm wrong,but anxiety.
when you said now I can't dosomething else, right.
You're thinking, I made thischoice and that means something
else has to go.
So there's like a grief or alaw, right.
(07:42):
Of a compromise, a consequenceor a self there's like grief or
self punishment.
I can't see which you're alreadylike, or something else I'm
going to miss out on because Idid this.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
A bit of both.
I would say.
And I think in like, In economicterms, something that really
stuck to me when I was learningabout it, it's called the
opportunity cost.
By doing one thing, you are notdoing another thing.
SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
We do have to focus this a bit.
So maybe we will say thesituation consists of the
duration of the meal.
And so I'm going to read out thefeeling list, and I want you to
help me rate each feeling inthis situation.
And you're rating it in terms ofintensity.
(08:26):
So one would be not intense atall.
And 10 would be quite intense.
So feeling slighted.
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Probably a five, I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (08:35):
Injustice.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
A four.
SPEAKER_02 (08:37):
Unhappy.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
Like an eight.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Disappointed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
Six.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Angry.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Six as well.
SPEAKER_02 (08:44):
And self-critical.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Easily a 10, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
Failure.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Seven.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
Frustrated.
Seven.
Overwhelmed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
A nine.
SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Feeling embarrassed.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
I would say maybe a six.
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
All right.
Shame.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
Six as well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Loathing.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
An eight, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
Fear.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
I'd probably give it a two.
That's good.
Anxiety.
Yeah, I would give that a six, Ithink.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
And so self-punishment.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
probably an eight because usually that's where
this conversation leads to whereit's like, you know, you're
unhappy, you're disappointed,you're frustrated.
And then it kind of makes sortof that turn where it's, this is
your fault.
Like you did this, you didn'tthink this through.
SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
So what you just described is self-criticism.
You didn't do this.
You didn't think this through.
But if somebody were to say,hey, why are you being so hard
on yourself?
You probably would be like, No,this is, I deserve this, right?
That's the self-punishment.
I have to do this.
This is the way
SPEAKER_00 (10:01):
that
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
I'm going to learn.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
It's part of it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
Yeah.
I really am curious about thisintensity of the grief and loss.
Is it in this moment when you'relike, I could have had something
better.
I could have made it at home.
Are you feeling better?
Like, is the grief at like a 10?
Because you said opportunitycost is something that is so
central in your mind.
Or is it in the background likefear?
(10:25):
I
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
would say like a 9 or a 10, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
So, Riz, in this situation, you go to a
restaurant, you eat somethingthat you could have made better
at home.
Or you realize that I orderedsomething that I could have made
better at home.
The situation lasts the durationof the meal longer.
After the incident is adifferent situation, but there's
some possible overlap with someof these feelings.
(10:50):
So let's pause here.
This is a lot that your body istrying to metabolize at once.
A lot of feelings.
The next column over isbehavior.
This is what you do briefly inthose moments when you're
feeling these things.
So it could be, I complain.
(11:13):
I retreat.
I start doing a mentalcalculation.
I start negotiating with myself.
I get angry with my partner.
I
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
get more so angry at myself.
But like what you listed for thefirst four is like retreating,
sulking.
I would put being negative,complaining, overthinking, I
would say maybe is a behavior.
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
So I'm writing the word conflict.
I know it's not quite conflict.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
I think I'd say conflict is still an accurate
word.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
Okay.
One of the things you named thatI want to give a different word
to, because I think it'simportant, particularly in
cognitive behavioral therapy,and that is when something
replays in your mind over andover, I would call that
rumination.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Okay.
King of illumination, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:03):
Love ruminating.
Love ruminating, great.
And so I just want to put thatword out there because that is
also something that we activelywant to disrupt, right?
If you are a researcher and youthink about something over and
over using a scientific method,what you get is a more accurate
(12:30):
or a more refined result.
When you repeatedly think aboutsomething and it doesn't come
with a method, it doesn't leadto a refined result.
It just leads to like whatcolloquially people would say, a
spiral, right?
People would be like, I'mspiraling.
I'm losing the plot is whatpeople would say.
(12:51):
And I think that's theconsequence of rumination.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
And that's a very accurate.
description of like when I'mruminating this, it's spiraling
out of control.
SPEAKER_02 (13:00):
And so the rumination becomes all
consuming.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
And now I'm moving over to perhaps the most
important column, which is aboutautomatic thoughts.
So I put notes in here becauseof some of the things you've
said, automatic thoughts areabout what comes into your mind.
in the moment.
And remember, our moment couldbe the duration of the meal.
(13:28):
So it could be when you firstrealized I got duped or I'm a
fool, I got played.
It could also be a little bitlater in the meal where you
start loathing yourself,criticizing.
OK, now I want to get thethoughts that are kind of at the
surface, the first things youthink about.
And then I will ask you followup questions.
(13:49):
And I'll put little arrowsunderneath them because those
are like part of the automaticthought there, but they're a bit
more refined.
Okay.
So here are the thoughts you'venamed already.
I'm the fool.
I got played.
Saving money is part of thetravel plan.
Food is central in my life.
I should be able to foresee thedisappointment.
(14:10):
I don't think we're going todisrupt the why I'm beating
myself up yet because But whenyou say, why did this happen?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
The thought as a statement wouldbe, this should not have
happened.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
And when you say, why did this happen to me?
If I'm turning that, if I'mextracting a statement out of
that, is there a thought thereabout being singled out or being
victimized while other peopleare not?
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
More so that aspect of being unlucky, you know, like
unlucky that it's happenedbecause like, You know, of
course this would happen to mein this thought process.
Of course I would be the one notenjoying what I got.
Tell me
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
about the of course.
That sounds like a given.
Like, of course this wouldhappen to me.
So I'm unlucky is one part ofit, but it seems to me like
another part of it is a thoughtabout this being inevitable or
you always getting the short endof the stick.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
This thought of being unlucky because I'm always
negative.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
The first thought that comes up is a question.
damn, why did this happen,right?
So if we turn that into astatement, it's actually that
this should not have happened.
Why did it happen?
I'm unlucky, but the way you'redescribing it is like, correct
me if I'm wrong, but I think thethought here is I caused my own
(15:31):
bad luck.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
I'm going to leave that particular why did this
happen there, and I'm going tomove to the next statement.
So the other one is I'm thefool.
I got played.
So I'm curious about what doesit mean for you to get played?
(15:53):
Why is that?
Like there's somethingunderlying here where there's, I
get the image I get is like of agame, right?
I got
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
played.
It's very black and white.
Yeah, it's a very black andwhite.
Either you're the winner or oryou're kind of the loser.
Like I didn't have the upperhand.
I didn't have the control.
That's what I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
Can you say more about not having control?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
I was not in control.
Therefore, what I didn't want tohappen, happened.
The bad that I didn't want isnow present.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
So the worst scenario I anticipated...
Is here.
Has happened.
Yeah, is here.
Exactly.
Okay.
The other thought you had wasyou had said saving money is
part of the travel plan.
So what does it mean for you ifyou're not able to save money or
(16:47):
you're not able to stick to thistravel plan?
SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
When you're unemployed, like when you quit
your job and then you go travelfor a long term and you're not
working during it, you reallystart off with a sum.
And every day that you are onthis trip, it gets smaller and
smaller.
And the only control that youhave is how to still do
everything you want to do, butnot lose like that, not let that
(17:14):
sum get too small, too fast.
SPEAKER_02 (17:16):
Do you feel like the fun of exploring is diminished
if you overspend or you don'tget a good deal on something or
you don't get the best value foryour money?
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yes, yes, 100%.
So
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
if I were to phrase that, I'm kind of with a tone of
punishment because I thinkthat's what's present here is
one of the things you'rethinking here is I will now have
to forego something I want todo.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
The other thing you had said was food is central in
my life.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
The most joy I have is like when I'm cooking myself
or when I'm eating somethingthat's just like so out of this
world.
There's a sense of happinessthat I think I've only ever
gotten playing like soccer whenI'm in, you know, you're kind of
in the zone.
If a meal doesn't like go whereI want it to go, then that's
(18:14):
where the negativity comes inbecause it's like, well, why,
why, why, why am I wasting suchvaluable time?
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
Okay.
This is where the fail sense offailure comes in.
Right.
So food is central in my life.
Pure joy comes only from foodand soccer.
Uh, I've been able to foreseethe disappointment is something
you said before.
I have failed in a way.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
Yeah.
It's evidence that I won't geteverything I want.
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
Part of this thought pattern or thinking style says
or suggests that other peoplewould not have made this
mistake.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
It's the comparison.
Like other people are doing allthese cool things.
And like, even though I know I'mdoing cool things, it's, Like I
said, it's always you want whatyou don't have.
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
When you're comparing yourself to others, is
there a particular group ofpeople we're talking about?
Or is it just everybody andanybody?
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Like growing up in a family where, you know, one
income, you're struggling.
You're still enjoying to adegree, but you're struggling.
And then you see people, youknow, Going on boat cruises,
people are going flying tosomewhere else for a vacation to
this remote place, you know,doing all these cool things.
And you realize like the coolestthing you did was drive a car
(19:32):
for eight hours to like anAmerican city.
And that's all you've got onyour name.
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
If I think about your money attitudes or your
money relationships, there's athought here about like, I'm
destined to repeat myself.
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
struggle.
I've just seemed to repeat acycle of struggle.
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
Look, it seems to me this last paragraph, I'm going
to move it to the top of ourautomatic thoughts because I
think we might be hitting atmore of the central thoughts
about not winning at life, notgetting to do the things you
want, being left behind.
Is that right?
Is this kind of at the core ofit?
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Yeah.
That's definitely at the core oflike my relationship to money
SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
so hoarding money is the possible fix and so the
money attitude that i wasgetting at earlier is almost
like a glorification of moneylike it'll save you it'll make
everything better
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
yeah yeah
SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
okay i think i've come up with a statement that
represents what you're saying ijust want to check it out with
you, okay?
So of all of this, the mostprominent thought or the most
underlying core belief orthought is I'm destined to
repeat a cycle of struggle andmoney will be the only thing
(20:55):
that truly determines goodlong-term outcomes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Yes, that is.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
Is that bang on?
You get it?
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
So our situation is I go to a restaurant and I
realize that I ordered somethingthat I could have made better at
home.
I feel cheated, slighted,injustice, unhappy,
disappointed, angry,self-critical, a sense of
failure, frustrated,overwhelmed, embarrassed,
ashamed, loathing, fear,self-punishment, anxiety, loss,
(21:26):
and grief.
SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
Your
SPEAKER_02 (21:28):
behavior, you're in a negative headspace, which
looks like complaining andsulking.
There's some conflict with yourpartner and you're retreating.
There's ongoing rumination,right?
Which is all continuing in akind of spiraling.
And so I say, Riz, what is thethought, the belief that drives
(21:52):
a lot of the negative feelingsand a lot of the behavior and
the spiraling in this particularsituation?
And it's not about the food.
It's about a realization.
It activates this thought thatyou have had for a long time.
It comes to the surface.
And that thought is I'm destinedto repeat a cycle of struggle
(22:15):
and money will be the only thingthat truly determines good
long-term outcomes.
Yes.
And now I'm going to move us tothe next column.
And what I want to do is toevaluate the hot thought.
The hot thought is the onethat's in bold.
You've already given me a bit ofthis, right?
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:35):
You have said the evidence I have that suggests
this is true.
You said that people with moneyhave an easier time.
And then you said somethingabout your parents.
So did they repeat a cycle ofstruggle?
(22:57):
Is there evidence that supportsthis idea?
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Being immigrants coming to Canada, right then and
there, there's a disadvantage.
Like just working, working,working so they can make the
livelihoods of myself and mysister better money for them is
like the most important thing aswell.
Right.
And spending money when itdoesn't need to be spent is
(23:21):
essentially the worst thing thatyou can do.
When I was 13, my, my fatherlost his job and he was the
primary earner and he neverreally recovered that.
Like it was kind of bouncingbetween other jobs, nothing
really secure.
So all of that, plays into thispart.
So I've seen their struggle.
I've spoken to them about theirstruggle.
(23:41):
And I know, obviously, they hadno control over that.
But I think seeing that struggleshaped me in knowing what I
don't want.
So it's like you're spendingmoney, again, is what I was
talking about, is you're losingmoney.
And if you're losing money, it'snot
SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
good.
Okay, so there are right andwrong things to spend on.
But also, any spending is bad.
SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
yeah.
These are almost like newthoughts that are emerging or
new automatic thoughts.
But really, it's about the ethosin your family.
So when we talk about evidencethat supports your hot thought,
that you're destined to repeat astruggle, and that the only
thing that determines a goodoutcome is money, you're giving
the evidence for like, how youknow that to be true.
Right?
(24:28):
And these are very real things.
Dad lost job, things were hard.
Parents gave me this message andit seemed to be true.
We were an immigrant family.
SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
There
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
was a struggle.
There was a cycle.
And you looked at people aroundyou and you're like, well, they
look like you're having aneasier time.
Why do I think it is?
Well, because they have money.
So now I'm going to move us tothe next column.
Now we're talking about whatevidence you have in your life
that suggests you're notrepeating a cycle of struggle
and that other things determinehappiness or good long-term
(25:01):
outcomes that's not money.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
So for the first part, I'm destined to repeat the
cycle of struggle.
At this current moment, I'm notdestined to repeat that because
I have saved up in my kind offury before quitting my job or
even just like existing underthe house of my parents and
learning from them is that youneed to always have money put
(25:24):
away.
So at this moment, even thoughI'm traveling and I'm spending
and I don't have a job, it's notthe end of the world.
Like I could go back and I couldstill like live.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
And you also sounds like, like what you learned from
your family were skills, right?
Like I have financial planningskills.
Would you agree?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
I have financial planning skills.
I have, I would say maybe youput financial acumen.
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
So this is evidence that suggests you're not
destined to repeat a cycle ofstruggle Other evidence, I
think, is that your parentsimmigrated to a place and had to
learn how to live in acompletely new place.
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
And that is imbued with struggle.
But actually, it's kind ofironic.
You're traveling right now.
You're born in Canada and you'retraveling the world right now.
Your experience with movementhas very little to do with
displacement.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
So, um, I, I just, the one piece of evidence here
is like, I am able to travel forpleasure.
I'm not displaced.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
I am doing the exact things I feared.
I would not be able to do.
So like I'm doing thistraveling, even though I didn't
like, I didn't want to have tolive their life where they
didn't get to necessarily dowhat I'm doing now.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
So I'm actually doing the things I worried I
wouldn't be able to.
That's great.
And one last thing.
So part of this thought, part ofthis belief is that money will
be the only thing that trulydetermines good long-term
outcomes.
What else determines long-termoutcomes?
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
Well, I would say health.
determines good long-termoutcomes.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
When you say health, do you mean physical, mental?
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Like both physical and mental.
SPEAKER_02 (27:33):
So physical and mental well-being also determine
long-term outcomes.
Okay, great.
Riz, your core belief, the hotthought was, I'm destined to
repeat a cycle of struggle andmoney will be the only thing
that truly determines goodlong-term outcomes.
We already recognize that that'sa tricky one because there's
(27:53):
two, there's really two thoughtsthere.
You've given me evidence thatsupports this hot thought.
Like we have a good sense ofwhere it came from.
Very real experience.
You've also given me evidencethat does not support this hot
thought, right?
I want you to try to come upwith an alternative thought to
the hot thought.
(28:14):
Something that is more balancedin light of the evidence for and
against.
SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
I know money is important, but it's not the only
thing maybe that dictates asuccessful outcome.
SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
So as an alternative thought, I've got money is
important, but it's noteverything.
I'm thinking about this hotthought, like I'm destined to
repeat a cycle of struggle.
I'm thinking one of yourthoughts could be, I've already
broken the cycle of struggle.
(28:51):
Of struggle.
Mm-hmm.
Which means I can afford to makesome mistakes.
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (29:00):
Another thought could be...
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
I've experienced the bad to a degree, so it's not
going to be the end of theworld.
Like, you know, things canchange.
SPEAKER_02 (29:11):
So one of the alternative thoughts I think
that's emerging here is even myparents...
Mm-hmm.
made it out to the other side of
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
the
SPEAKER_02 (29:28):
struggle.
Another alternative thoughtcould be, right, is the grief
and anxiety I have now is frommy childhood, but doesn't serve
me in this situation.
I'm thinking you're also wantingto rework the opportunity cost
(29:53):
narrative.
Something like I might not havebeen able to control this
outcome and it doesn't sayanything about me or my future.
So Riz, what I'm going to askyou to do is to read each of
(30:15):
these alternative thoughts
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
And
SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
I want you to tell me which one you actually
believe the most.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
The one I think that is most accurate would be the
grief and anxiety is from mychildhood.
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
So that alternative thought is the grief and anxiety
I have now is from childhood,but doesn't serve me in this
situation.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Exactly.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
Okay.
So I'm going to put that inbold.
I'm going to put this otherautomatic thought under it.
Because I think they're related.
So the grief and anxiety I havenow is from my childhood, but it
doesn't serve me in thissituation.
The sub point is I've alreadybroken the cycle of struggle,
(31:00):
which means I can afford to makemistakes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
Okay.
Now, I am going to paste...
All of these feelings that wefirst identified in the last
column.
I want you to think about youralternative thought.
(31:24):
And we're going to go aheadwhile you're thinking about the
alternative thought and we'regoing to re-rate these emotions.
How would you rate feelingcheated?
Maybe a two.
How slight do you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
How big is the injustice?
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
How big is the unhappiness or how intense?
Five.
Disappointed or disappointment?
SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
Angry?
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Self-critical?
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Yeah, six.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Feeling of failure?
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
One.
SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
Feeling frustrated?
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Three.
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
Feeling overwhelmed?
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
Three.
SPEAKER_02 (32:06):
Do you still feel embarrassed?
SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
So I put that as a one.
SPEAKER_02 (32:08):
Feeling shame?
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Two.
SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Loathing?
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Yeah, I would put that as like a two.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Fear.
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
Maybe like a seven.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Okay.
Anxiety.
Seven.
Self-punishment.
Three.
Lost grief.
Four.
Do any new feelings show up foryou?
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
Understanding.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Ah, yes.
To me, because this triggerswhat I would call a childhood
trauma, on a physical level, youare quite activated.
If we're containing some of thedanger, what you might be
feeling is just a bit of sadnessabout the past, but I'm not
(32:53):
sure.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
no, that's what I'm feeling.
SPEAKER_02 (32:55):
The word that's coming up to me that's a feeling
word in this context, becauseyou've now gone in and talked
about your family, the ethos ofthat family and the struggle.
I think if you're not asangry...
What's underneath that is afeeling of vulnerability.
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I would say that's a good one.
I didn't think of it, but that'swhat I was feeling.
SPEAKER_02 (33:21):
And because we talked about the control aspect,
this alternative thought helpsyou gain some sense of control
in
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
a small
SPEAKER_02 (33:31):
way.
It
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
gives me control towards not having control, if
that makes sense.
It lets me know that...
I can still go on withoutcontrol, which is I think
something I've been grapplingwith.
SPEAKER_02 (33:45):
So when I think about thriving, I'm thinking
that there's some feeling ofbeing determined and there's a
newfound following foruncertainty.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Take a look at this thought record.
It looks, if we look at thefeeling list, one of the things
I'm seeing is with thealternative thought, We move
away from the analogy of thegood and the bad, the right and
the wrong, the winner and theloser.
(34:21):
Because the things aroundinjustice and feeling cheated go
down significantly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
The
SPEAKER_02 (34:31):
feeling of being a person of failure goes down
quite a bit.
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
And I think...
That part to me is veryimportant because it would be
unfortunate for you to takepersonal responsibility for all
external circumstances.
When you talk about the familyas an immigrant family that
(34:57):
doesn't have a lot of means orfaces barriers, those are
systemic barriers.
They're not of their own making.
The information that you werefed as a child, like saving
money will determine goodoutcomes.
Any kind of spending is bad.
(35:19):
These are individual ways tocope with a systemic problem.
Right.
And the systemic problem is likeracism and poverty that your
parents would have faced.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:32):
Now, It's not that you don't face systemic struggle
because you also exist incapitalism.
You worry about money.
You're racialized.
You're worried about the future.
We're also living in a time ofextreme eco-anxiety.
We see the world is on fire.
(35:53):
We see politics are at theirmost extreme that I think we've
seen in a long time.
There's a lot of uncertaintyabout the future and I can
appreciate your desire to wantcontrol in that context.
You're like, how am I going tocarve out a life for myself in
this world of uncertainty if Ikeep making these small
(36:15):
mistakes, right?
So one thing that's similar inyour life and in your parents'
life is that there are a lot ofexternal factors, right?
that drive the anxiety and thefear.
And what I'm telling you tothink about or to consider
(36:35):
thinking more about is how muchindividual responsibility you
are trying to take for somethingthat's systemic.
There's a certain amount ofuncertainty that comes with the
context we live in.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
As we wrap this up and I stop the screen share, one
of the things I want to ask ofyou is, has this helped you
think about your own struggle ina slightly different way?
I
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
was in a square.
SPEAKER_02 (37:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
And you were showing me that really, like, it's a
giant circle.
Like, you're just, you know,you're just in this one small
part.
Like, it's huge.
Wow.
It's huge.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
So the process of the thought record helped you
zoom out and gain perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Exactly.
Bird's eye view.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
And then part of the questioning and even me
preempting some of thestatements was helping give
language to some of the thingsyou've been experiencing.
Because it's really in theweeds.
It's really muddled up.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
Yes.
Okay.
So it's been helpful.
I want to live by it.
And I think, you know, havingdone therapy before you hear it,
yeah, back to them.
SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
This has given you an example of what cognitive
behavioral therapy can looklike.
If you were in therapy doingthis kind of work, you know, the
first two sessions wouldprobably be history and
background of, like, your life.
Third and fourth sessions wouldprobably be tackling, like, more
(38:19):
immediate anxiety or symptomsthat you experience, giving you
skills to ground, to do imagerywork, to do mindfulness, to help
you more immediately.
And then you would be doing adeeper dive and querying, is
there a disorder there that weneed to work on more
(38:39):
specifically, like generalizedanxiety or obsessions or
whatever it is?
I'm not saying you have any ofthose things, but that would be
the next step.
in a therapeutic process.
And then it would take severalsessions to do two or three
different thought records andthen give yourself time to
reflect on them.
(39:00):
So by now, in that process, weare at session eight or nine.
And then we're thinking aboutsome of the core beliefs that
have emerged from doing two orthree thought records.
And now we're thinking aboutlike how to apply this to your
life and to decide, hey, is thisenough?
(39:21):
Or do we need to go deeper intosome of the childhood trauma?
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Yeah, well, it's nice to have this as a
foundation.
So it's good.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Thank you so much for being a guest on the CBT
Dive.
And yeah, I hope this washelpful.
And that's the CBT Dive fortoday.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and you can
follow us on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
(39:50):
not as a replacement forindividual to a therapy.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar, and each week I
walk a guest through applyingCBT skills to real-world
situations.
(00:21):
It's good to see you today.
Riz has been traveling for 13months with his partner, and the
impetus of travel was...
in reaction to or in response tohis family of origin who has
often had big dreams but hasn'thad the opportunity to act on
them.
So through this journey, one ofthe things that's come up for
(00:44):
you, Riz, has been about yourrelationship to money.
So you've had some situationscome up recently.
I'm going to put them into athought record and then I'm
going to share my screen so thatthe viewers can see it.
And what I'd like us to do isreally think about zeroing in on
(01:04):
a situation that's brought upsome really difficult feelings
for you around money.
And prior to this recording, youhave given me some insight into
what that could look like.
So a thought record is issomething that's designed to
help you look at a situation ina linear way.
(01:25):
And we use thought records, notwhen we have a simple problem to
solve, but rather when wesuspect that there's unhelpful
thought patterns at play.
So the situation is I go to arestaurant and I eat something
that I could have made bettermyself.
(01:45):
and you feel cheated.
So this feeling of cheated comesup.
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
In the context of long-term traveling, where part
of the traveling involves, youknow, to save money, you're not
always eating out.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Part of what you're saying is jumping ahead.
So I'm just going to make a notehere that says, under automatic
thoughts, that says saving moneyis part of...
The travel plan.
If I were to go to the nextcolumn, this is our feelings
(02:20):
list.
Okay.
These are all the feelings thatcome up when you think about
this situation of going to arestaurant, you eat something
and you're like, oh, this is notgreat.
I could have made this better athome.
Right.
So you're already saying one ofthe feelings you have is that
you feel cheated.
So in the feelings column, I'mgoing to write down the word
(02:41):
cheated.
What are the other feelings thatare coming up for you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Slight unjust for sure.
Unhappiness, sadness as well.
I become angry at myself anddisappointed at myself that I
wouldn't make a decision likethis when I could have done it
differently.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
Okay.
So I really like thatdescription because I got the
other feeling words out ofthere.
It sounded like...
angry or anger was prominent.
And that leads to beingself-critical, right?
I could have done this better adifferent way.
The way you described it, itsounded like there was a feeling
(03:21):
of a failure that was alsopresent.
Would that be accurate?
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah.
If you're in the situation,failure of not having foreseen
what would have happened,knowing who I am as a person and
knowing maybe my limitationswhen it comes to money and these
aspects of it, like not havingjust diverted to what would have
been the logical path, given howI react to money and my
(03:49):
relationship to money.
So definitely failure would be abig point.
SPEAKER_02 (03:55):
Okay.
And as you're saying that in theautomatic thought column, I'm
already skipping ahead and I'mwriting down, I should be able
to foresee, help me finish thatsentence.
SPEAKER_00 (04:07):
I should be able to have foreseen what my reaction
would have been because I'vegone through this before.
Like, why do I keep going backif I know this is what's going
to happen and I'm going to haveall of these negative feelings.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Right.
So another feeling that's comingout clear is frustrated or
frustration.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah.
Are you also
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
feeling embarrassed or humiliated or overwhelmed?
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Overwhelmed, for sure.
There's shame, I would say.
Embarrassment and shame.
That comes after.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
When you say shame, I wonder if it also is, if
there's a kind of loathing, likeself-loathing.
Shame to me says I'm inferior orI'm not good enough, but
loathing is kind of like I don'tlike myself.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
There's both.
There's both aspects of it.
Like the shame is revolvedaround like, why am I feeling
these things?
And then the loathing is like,why is this me?
SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
Right, right.
So I want to clarify somethinghere.
There are actually twosituations that you're talking
about.
One is when you first feelcheated, right?
So it's gone to a restaurant.
and you take your first fewbites of something and you're
(05:37):
like, you know what, this isn'tthe jam.
I could have done this better athome, right?
So the other one seems to beafter the event, which is when
you feel further upset orfurther frustrated that you got
(05:59):
upset in the first place And Idon't know, do the same mental
gymnastics.
Yeah.
So a couple more questions here.
Do you, they're feelingquestions.
Do you think there's a feelingof fear or anxiety?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
I would say yes.
Fear, which is fear.
The fear of like, if I keepmaking these decisions, whatever
little money I do have is goingto be gone.
The fear is representative inthat, like, I'm going to end up
how, my parents ended up wherethere's going to be struggle.
And this is exactly what I'mtrying to avoid.
I don't want to have thisstruggle.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
Right.
Okay.
So I put down a couple of wordshere and I just want to explain
them.
So in the feelings list, Itotally get that.
What you're saying here is thatfear is not so, it's not so
prominent, right?
I get that.
And so, but I think it's usefulto list that.
(06:59):
And in brackets, I put fear ofscarcity because that's, I
think, the way I heard it,right?
Yep, yep.
And there's always with fear,there's a bit of anxiety, right?
So it doesn't have to be superpresent.
It's just there because anxietyin its protective function is
almost always present when wethink there's a threat in our
(07:19):
environment.
So fear and anxiety kind of gotogether.
And then there's a bit of grief,I think.
You can correct me if I'm wrong,but anxiety.
when you said now I can't dosomething else, right.
You're thinking, I made thischoice and that means something
else has to go.
So there's like a grief or alaw, right.
(07:42):
Of a compromise, a consequenceor a self there's like grief or
self punishment.
I can't see which you're alreadylike, or something else I'm
going to miss out on because Idid this.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
A bit of both.
I would say.
And I think in like, In economicterms, something that really
stuck to me when I was learningabout it, it's called the
opportunity cost.
By doing one thing, you are notdoing another thing.
SPEAKER_02 (08:05):
We do have to focus this a bit.
So maybe we will say thesituation consists of the
duration of the meal.
And so I'm going to read out thefeeling list, and I want you to
help me rate each feeling inthis situation.
And you're rating it in terms ofintensity.
(08:26):
So one would be not intense atall.
And 10 would be quite intense.
So feeling slighted.
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Probably a five, I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (08:35):
Injustice.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
A four.
SPEAKER_02 (08:37):
Unhappy.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
Like an eight.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Disappointed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
Six.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Angry.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Six as well.
SPEAKER_02 (08:44):
And self-critical.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Easily a 10, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
Failure.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Seven.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
Frustrated.
Seven.
Overwhelmed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
A nine.
SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Feeling embarrassed.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
I would say maybe a six.
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
All right.
Shame.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
Six as well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Loathing.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
An eight, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
Fear.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
I'd probably give it a two.
That's good.
Anxiety.
Yeah, I would give that a six, Ithink.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
And so self-punishment.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
probably an eight because usually that's where
this conversation leads to whereit's like, you know, you're
unhappy, you're disappointed,you're frustrated.
And then it kind of makes sortof that turn where it's, this is
your fault.
Like you did this, you didn'tthink this through.
SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
So what you just described is self-criticism.
You didn't do this.
You didn't think this through.
But if somebody were to say,hey, why are you being so hard
on yourself?
You probably would be like, No,this is, I deserve this, right?
That's the self-punishment.
I have to do this.
This is the way
SPEAKER_00 (10:01):
that
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
I'm going to learn.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
It's part of it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
Yeah.
I really am curious about thisintensity of the grief and loss.
Is it in this moment when you'relike, I could have had something
better.
I could have made it at home.
Are you feeling better?
Like, is the grief at like a 10?
Because you said opportunitycost is something that is so
central in your mind.
Or is it in the background likefear?
(10:25):
I
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
would say like a 9 or a 10, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
So, Riz, in this situation, you go to a
restaurant, you eat somethingthat you could have made better
at home.
Or you realize that I orderedsomething that I could have made
better at home.
The situation lasts the durationof the meal longer.
After the incident is adifferent situation, but there's
some possible overlap with someof these feelings.
(10:50):
So let's pause here.
This is a lot that your body istrying to metabolize at once.
A lot of feelings.
The next column over isbehavior.
This is what you do briefly inthose moments when you're
feeling these things.
So it could be, I complain.
(11:13):
I retreat.
I start doing a mentalcalculation.
I start negotiating with myself.
I get angry with my partner.
I
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
get more so angry at myself.
But like what you listed for thefirst four is like retreating,
sulking.
I would put being negative,complaining, overthinking, I
would say maybe is a behavior.
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
So I'm writing the word conflict.
I know it's not quite conflict.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
I think I'd say conflict is still an accurate
word.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
Okay.
One of the things you named thatI want to give a different word
to, because I think it'simportant, particularly in
cognitive behavioral therapy,and that is when something
replays in your mind over andover, I would call that
rumination.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Okay.
King of illumination, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:03):
Love ruminating.
Love ruminating, great.
And so I just want to put thatword out there because that is
also something that we activelywant to disrupt, right?
If you are a researcher and youthink about something over and
over using a scientific method,what you get is a more accurate
(12:30):
or a more refined result.
When you repeatedly think aboutsomething and it doesn't come
with a method, it doesn't leadto a refined result.
It just leads to like whatcolloquially people would say, a
spiral, right?
People would be like, I'mspiraling.
I'm losing the plot is whatpeople would say.
(12:51):
And I think that's theconsequence of rumination.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
And that's a very accurate.
description of like when I'mruminating this, it's spiraling
out of control.
SPEAKER_02 (13:00):
And so the rumination becomes all
consuming.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
And now I'm moving over to perhaps the most
important column, which is aboutautomatic thoughts.
So I put notes in here becauseof some of the things you've
said, automatic thoughts areabout what comes into your mind.
in the moment.
And remember, our moment couldbe the duration of the meal.
(13:28):
So it could be when you firstrealized I got duped or I'm a
fool, I got played.
It could also be a little bitlater in the meal where you
start loathing yourself,criticizing.
OK, now I want to get thethoughts that are kind of at the
surface, the first things youthink about.
And then I will ask you followup questions.
(13:49):
And I'll put little arrowsunderneath them because those
are like part of the automaticthought there, but they're a bit
more refined.
Okay.
So here are the thoughts you'venamed already.
I'm the fool.
I got played.
Saving money is part of thetravel plan.
Food is central in my life.
I should be able to foresee thedisappointment.
(14:10):
I don't think we're going todisrupt the why I'm beating
myself up yet because But whenyou say, why did this happen?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
The thought as a statement wouldbe, this should not have
happened.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
And when you say, why did this happen to me?
If I'm turning that, if I'mextracting a statement out of
that, is there a thought thereabout being singled out or being
victimized while other peopleare not?
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
More so that aspect of being unlucky, you know, like
unlucky that it's happenedbecause like, You know, of
course this would happen to mein this thought process.
Of course I would be the one notenjoying what I got.
Tell me
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
about the of course.
That sounds like a given.
Like, of course this wouldhappen to me.
So I'm unlucky is one part ofit, but it seems to me like
another part of it is a thoughtabout this being inevitable or
you always getting the short endof the stick.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
This thought of being unlucky because I'm always
negative.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
The first thought that comes up is a question.
damn, why did this happen,right?
So if we turn that into astatement, it's actually that
this should not have happened.
Why did it happen?
I'm unlucky, but the way you'redescribing it is like, correct
me if I'm wrong, but I think thethought here is I caused my own
(15:31):
bad luck.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
I'm going to leave that particular why did this
happen there, and I'm going tomove to the next statement.
So the other one is I'm thefool.
I got played.
So I'm curious about what doesit mean for you to get played?
(15:53):
Why is that?
Like there's somethingunderlying here where there's, I
get the image I get is like of agame, right?
I got
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
played.
It's very black and white.
Yeah, it's a very black andwhite.
Either you're the winner or oryou're kind of the loser.
Like I didn't have the upperhand.
I didn't have the control.
That's what I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
Can you say more about not having control?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
I was not in control.
Therefore, what I didn't want tohappen, happened.
The bad that I didn't want isnow present.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
So the worst scenario I anticipated...
Is here.
Has happened.
Yeah, is here.
Exactly.
Okay.
The other thought you had wasyou had said saving money is
part of the travel plan.
So what does it mean for you ifyou're not able to save money or
(16:47):
you're not able to stick to thistravel plan?
SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
When you're unemployed, like when you quit
your job and then you go travelfor a long term and you're not
working during it, you reallystart off with a sum.
And every day that you are onthis trip, it gets smaller and
smaller.
And the only control that youhave is how to still do
everything you want to do, butnot lose like that, not let that
(17:14):
sum get too small, too fast.
SPEAKER_02 (17:16):
Do you feel like the fun of exploring is diminished
if you overspend or you don'tget a good deal on something or
you don't get the best value foryour money?
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yes, yes, 100%.
So
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
if I were to phrase that, I'm kind of with a tone of
punishment because I thinkthat's what's present here is
one of the things you'rethinking here is I will now have
to forego something I want todo.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
The other thing you had said was food is central in
my life.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
The most joy I have is like when I'm cooking myself
or when I'm eating somethingthat's just like so out of this
world.
There's a sense of happinessthat I think I've only ever
gotten playing like soccer whenI'm in, you know, you're kind of
in the zone.
If a meal doesn't like go whereI want it to go, then that's
(18:14):
where the negativity comes inbecause it's like, well, why,
why, why, why am I wasting suchvaluable time?
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
Okay.
This is where the fail sense offailure comes in.
Right.
So food is central in my life.
Pure joy comes only from foodand soccer.
Uh, I've been able to foreseethe disappointment is something
you said before.
I have failed in a way.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
Yeah.
It's evidence that I won't geteverything I want.
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
Part of this thought pattern or thinking style says
or suggests that other peoplewould not have made this
mistake.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
It's the comparison.
Like other people are doing allthese cool things.
And like, even though I know I'mdoing cool things, it's, Like I
said, it's always you want whatyou don't have.
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
When you're comparing yourself to others, is
there a particular group ofpeople we're talking about?
Or is it just everybody andanybody?
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Like growing up in a family where, you know, one
income, you're struggling.
You're still enjoying to adegree, but you're struggling.
And then you see people, youknow, Going on boat cruises,
people are going flying tosomewhere else for a vacation to
this remote place, you know,doing all these cool things.
And you realize like the coolestthing you did was drive a car
(19:32):
for eight hours to like anAmerican city.
And that's all you've got onyour name.
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
If I think about your money attitudes or your
money relationships, there's athought here about like, I'm
destined to repeat myself.
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
struggle.
I've just seemed to repeat acycle of struggle.
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
Look, it seems to me this last paragraph, I'm going
to move it to the top of ourautomatic thoughts because I
think we might be hitting atmore of the central thoughts
about not winning at life, notgetting to do the things you
want, being left behind.
Is that right?
Is this kind of at the core ofit?
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Yeah.
That's definitely at the core oflike my relationship to money
SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
so hoarding money is the possible fix and so the
money attitude that i wasgetting at earlier is almost
like a glorification of moneylike it'll save you it'll make
everything better
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
yeah yeah
SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
okay i think i've come up with a statement that
represents what you're saying ijust want to check it out with
you, okay?
So of all of this, the mostprominent thought or the most
underlying core belief orthought is I'm destined to
repeat a cycle of struggle andmoney will be the only thing
(20:55):
that truly determines goodlong-term outcomes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Yes, that is.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
Is that bang on?
You get it?
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
So our situation is I go to a restaurant and I
realize that I ordered somethingthat I could have made better at
home.
I feel cheated, slighted,injustice, unhappy,
disappointed, angry,self-critical, a sense of
failure, frustrated,overwhelmed, embarrassed,
ashamed, loathing, fear,self-punishment, anxiety, loss,
(21:26):
and grief.
SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
Your
SPEAKER_02 (21:28):
behavior, you're in a negative headspace, which
looks like complaining andsulking.
There's some conflict with yourpartner and you're retreating.
There's ongoing rumination,right?
Which is all continuing in akind of spiraling.
And so I say, Riz, what is thethought, the belief that drives
(21:52):
a lot of the negative feelingsand a lot of the behavior and
the spiraling in this particularsituation?
And it's not about the food.
It's about a realization.
It activates this thought thatyou have had for a long time.
It comes to the surface.
And that thought is I'm destinedto repeat a cycle of struggle
(22:15):
and money will be the only thingthat truly determines good
long-term outcomes.
Yes.
And now I'm going to move us tothe next column.
And what I want to do is toevaluate the hot thought.
The hot thought is the onethat's in bold.
You've already given me a bit ofthis, right?
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:35):
You have said the evidence I have that suggests
this is true.
You said that people with moneyhave an easier time.
And then you said somethingabout your parents.
So did they repeat a cycle ofstruggle?
(22:57):
Is there evidence that supportsthis idea?
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Being immigrants coming to Canada, right then and
there, there's a disadvantage.
Like just working, working,working so they can make the
livelihoods of myself and mysister better money for them is
like the most important thing aswell.
Right.
And spending money when itdoesn't need to be spent is
(23:21):
essentially the worst thing thatyou can do.
When I was 13, my, my fatherlost his job and he was the
primary earner and he neverreally recovered that.
Like it was kind of bouncingbetween other jobs, nothing
really secure.
So all of that, plays into thispart.
So I've seen their struggle.
I've spoken to them about theirstruggle.
(23:41):
And I know, obviously, they hadno control over that.
But I think seeing that struggleshaped me in knowing what I
don't want.
So it's like you're spendingmoney, again, is what I was
talking about, is you're losingmoney.
And if you're losing money, it'snot
SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
good.
Okay, so there are right andwrong things to spend on.
But also, any spending is bad.
SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
yeah.
These are almost like newthoughts that are emerging or
new automatic thoughts.
But really, it's about the ethosin your family.
So when we talk about evidencethat supports your hot thought,
that you're destined to repeat astruggle, and that the only
thing that determines a goodoutcome is money, you're giving
the evidence for like, how youknow that to be true.
Right?
(24:28):
And these are very real things.
Dad lost job, things were hard.
Parents gave me this message andit seemed to be true.
We were an immigrant family.
SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
There
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
was a struggle.
There was a cycle.
And you looked at people aroundyou and you're like, well, they
look like you're having aneasier time.
Why do I think it is?
Well, because they have money.
So now I'm going to move us tothe next column.
Now we're talking about whatevidence you have in your life
that suggests you're notrepeating a cycle of struggle
and that other things determinehappiness or good long-term
(25:01):
outcomes that's not money.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
So for the first part, I'm destined to repeat the
cycle of struggle.
At this current moment, I'm notdestined to repeat that because
I have saved up in my kind offury before quitting my job or
even just like existing underthe house of my parents and
learning from them is that youneed to always have money put
(25:24):
away.
So at this moment, even thoughI'm traveling and I'm spending
and I don't have a job, it's notthe end of the world.
Like I could go back and I couldstill like live.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
And you also sounds like, like what you learned from
your family were skills, right?
Like I have financial planningskills.
Would you agree?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
I have financial planning skills.
I have, I would say maybe youput financial acumen.
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
So this is evidence that suggests you're not
destined to repeat a cycle ofstruggle Other evidence, I
think, is that your parentsimmigrated to a place and had to
learn how to live in acompletely new place.
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
And that is imbued with struggle.
But actually, it's kind ofironic.
You're traveling right now.
You're born in Canada and you'retraveling the world right now.
Your experience with movementhas very little to do with
displacement.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
So, um, I, I just, the one piece of evidence here
is like, I am able to travel forpleasure.
I'm not displaced.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
I am doing the exact things I feared.
I would not be able to do.
So like I'm doing thistraveling, even though I didn't
like, I didn't want to have tolive their life where they
didn't get to necessarily dowhat I'm doing now.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
So I'm actually doing the things I worried I
wouldn't be able to.
That's great.
And one last thing.
So part of this thought, part ofthis belief is that money will
be the only thing that trulydetermines good long-term
outcomes.
What else determines long-termoutcomes?
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
Well, I would say health.
determines good long-termoutcomes.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
When you say health, do you mean physical, mental?
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Like both physical and mental.
SPEAKER_02 (27:33):
So physical and mental well-being also determine
long-term outcomes.
Okay, great.
Riz, your core belief, the hotthought was, I'm destined to
repeat a cycle of struggle andmoney will be the only thing
that truly determines goodlong-term outcomes.
We already recognize that that'sa tricky one because there's
(27:53):
two, there's really two thoughtsthere.
You've given me evidence thatsupports this hot thought.
Like we have a good sense ofwhere it came from.
Very real experience.
You've also given me evidencethat does not support this hot
thought, right?
I want you to try to come upwith an alternative thought to
the hot thought.
(28:14):
Something that is more balancedin light of the evidence for and
against.
SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
I know money is important, but it's not the only
thing maybe that dictates asuccessful outcome.
SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
So as an alternative thought, I've got money is
important, but it's noteverything.
I'm thinking about this hotthought, like I'm destined to
repeat a cycle of struggle.
I'm thinking one of yourthoughts could be, I've already
broken the cycle of struggle.
(28:51):
Of struggle.
Mm-hmm.
Which means I can afford to makesome mistakes.
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (29:00):
Another thought could be...
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
I've experienced the bad to a degree, so it's not
going to be the end of theworld.
Like, you know, things canchange.
SPEAKER_02 (29:11):
So one of the alternative thoughts I think
that's emerging here is even myparents...
Mm-hmm.
made it out to the other side of
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
the
SPEAKER_02 (29:28):
struggle.
Another alternative thoughtcould be, right, is the grief
and anxiety I have now is frommy childhood, but doesn't serve
me in this situation.
I'm thinking you're also wantingto rework the opportunity cost
(29:53):
narrative.
Something like I might not havebeen able to control this
outcome and it doesn't sayanything about me or my future.
So Riz, what I'm going to askyou to do is to read each of
(30:15):
these alternative thoughts
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
And
SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
I want you to tell me which one you actually
believe the most.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
The one I think that is most accurate would be the
grief and anxiety is from mychildhood.
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
So that alternative thought is the grief and anxiety
I have now is from childhood,but doesn't serve me in this
situation.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Exactly.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
Okay.
So I'm going to put that inbold.
I'm going to put this otherautomatic thought under it.
Because I think they're related.
So the grief and anxiety I havenow is from my childhood, but it
doesn't serve me in thissituation.
The sub point is I've alreadybroken the cycle of struggle,
(31:00):
which means I can afford to makemistakes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
Okay.
Now, I am going to paste...
All of these feelings that wefirst identified in the last
column.
I want you to think about youralternative thought.
(31:24):
And we're going to go aheadwhile you're thinking about the
alternative thought and we'regoing to re-rate these emotions.
How would you rate feelingcheated?
Maybe a two.
How slight do you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
How big is the injustice?
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
How big is the unhappiness or how intense?
Five.
Disappointed or disappointment?
SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
Angry?
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
Four.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Self-critical?
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Yeah, six.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Feeling of failure?
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
One.
SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
Feeling frustrated?
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Three.
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
Feeling overwhelmed?
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
Three.
SPEAKER_02 (32:06):
Do you still feel embarrassed?
SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
So I put that as a one.
SPEAKER_02 (32:08):
Feeling shame?
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Two.
SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Loathing?
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Yeah, I would put that as like a two.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Fear.
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
Maybe like a seven.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Okay.
Anxiety.
Seven.
Self-punishment.
Three.
Lost grief.
Four.
Do any new feelings show up foryou?
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
Understanding.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Ah, yes.
To me, because this triggerswhat I would call a childhood
trauma, on a physical level, youare quite activated.
If we're containing some of thedanger, what you might be
feeling is just a bit of sadnessabout the past, but I'm not
(32:53):
sure.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
no, that's what I'm feeling.
SPEAKER_02 (32:55):
The word that's coming up to me that's a feeling
word in this context, becauseyou've now gone in and talked
about your family, the ethos ofthat family and the struggle.
I think if you're not asangry...
What's underneath that is afeeling of vulnerability.
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I would say that's a good one.
I didn't think of it, but that'swhat I was feeling.
SPEAKER_02 (33:21):
And because we talked about the control aspect,
this alternative thought helpsyou gain some sense of control
in
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
a small
SPEAKER_02 (33:31):
way.
It
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
gives me control towards not having control, if
that makes sense.
It lets me know that...
I can still go on withoutcontrol, which is I think
something I've been grapplingwith.
SPEAKER_02 (33:45):
So when I think about thriving, I'm thinking
that there's some feeling ofbeing determined and there's a
newfound following foruncertainty.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Take a look at this thought record.
It looks, if we look at thefeeling list, one of the things
I'm seeing is with thealternative thought, We move
away from the analogy of thegood and the bad, the right and
the wrong, the winner and theloser.
(34:21):
Because the things aroundinjustice and feeling cheated go
down significantly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
The
SPEAKER_02 (34:31):
feeling of being a person of failure goes down
quite a bit.
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
And I think...
That part to me is veryimportant because it would be
unfortunate for you to takepersonal responsibility for all
external circumstances.
When you talk about the familyas an immigrant family that
(34:57):
doesn't have a lot of means orfaces barriers, those are
systemic barriers.
They're not of their own making.
The information that you werefed as a child, like saving
money will determine goodoutcomes.
Any kind of spending is bad.
(35:19):
These are individual ways tocope with a systemic problem.
Right.
And the systemic problem is likeracism and poverty that your
parents would have faced.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:32):
Now, It's not that you don't face systemic struggle
because you also exist incapitalism.
You worry about money.
You're racialized.
You're worried about the future.
We're also living in a time ofextreme eco-anxiety.
We see the world is on fire.
(35:53):
We see politics are at theirmost extreme that I think we've
seen in a long time.
There's a lot of uncertaintyabout the future and I can
appreciate your desire to wantcontrol in that context.
You're like, how am I going tocarve out a life for myself in
this world of uncertainty if Ikeep making these small
(36:15):
mistakes, right?
So one thing that's similar inyour life and in your parents'
life is that there are a lot ofexternal factors, right?
that drive the anxiety and thefear.
And what I'm telling you tothink about or to consider
(36:35):
thinking more about is how muchindividual responsibility you
are trying to take for somethingthat's systemic.
There's a certain amount ofuncertainty that comes with the
context we live in.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
As we wrap this up and I stop the screen share, one
of the things I want to ask ofyou is, has this helped you
think about your own struggle ina slightly different way?
I
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
was in a square.
SPEAKER_02 (37:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
And you were showing me that really, like, it's a
giant circle.
Like, you're just, you know,you're just in this one small
part.
Like, it's huge.
Wow.
It's huge.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
So the process of the thought record helped you
zoom out and gain perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Exactly.
Bird's eye view.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
And then part of the questioning and even me
preempting some of thestatements was helping give
language to some of the thingsyou've been experiencing.
Because it's really in theweeds.
It's really muddled up.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
Yes.
Okay.
So it's been helpful.
I want to live by it.
And I think, you know, havingdone therapy before you hear it,
yeah, back to them.
SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
This has given you an example of what cognitive
behavioral therapy can looklike.
If you were in therapy doingthis kind of work, you know, the
first two sessions wouldprobably be history and
background of, like, your life.
Third and fourth sessions wouldprobably be tackling, like, more
(38:19):
immediate anxiety or symptomsthat you experience, giving you
skills to ground, to do imagerywork, to do mindfulness, to help
you more immediately.
And then you would be doing adeeper dive and querying, is
there a disorder there that weneed to work on more
(38:39):
specifically, like generalizedanxiety or obsessions or
whatever it is?
I'm not saying you have any ofthose things, but that would be
the next step.
in a therapeutic process.
And then it would take severalsessions to do two or three
different thought records andthen give yourself time to
reflect on them.
(39:00):
So by now, in that process, weare at session eight or nine.
And then we're thinking aboutsome of the core beliefs that
have emerged from doing two orthree thought records.
And now we're thinking aboutlike how to apply this to your
life and to decide, hey, is thisenough?
(39:21):
Or do we need to go deeper intosome of the childhood trauma?
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Yeah, well, it's nice to have this as a
foundation.
So it's good.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Thank you so much for being a guest on the CBT
Dive.
And yeah, I hope this washelpful.
And that's the CBT Dive fortoday.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and you can
follow us on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
(39:50):
not as a replacement forindividual to a therapy.
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