July 23, 2024 • 31 mins
Lindsay Wynn, founder and CEO of Momotaro Apotheca, shares her experience of feeling excluded and questioned about her bisexual identity at a gay bar. She explores the feelings of self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and sadness that arose from this encounter. Lindsay reflects on her journey of self-discovery and the challenges of navigating her sexual identity. As Rahim walks Lindsay through the Thought Record, Lindsay discusses her experiences and challenges as a bisexual woman and the fear of not being queer enough. Lindsay reflects on her own privilege and the importance of ongoing reflection and awareness. Overall, Lindsay emphasizes the need for empathy, understanding, and self-confidence in navigating these issues.
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rahim (00:00):
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
Hi, Lindsay.
(00:26):
How are you?
Hi,
Lindsay (00:27):
Rahim.
I'm great.
Thank you.
How are you?
Rahim (00:29):
I'm good.
Lindsay, you and I met, youknow, online through your work
at Momotar Apotheca.
And you had invited me to writefor your blog.
And then I was in New York lastsummer and did a workshop.
And so I'm really glad we madethat connection.
I want to tell our viewers alittle bit about you.
(00:50):
Lindsay is the founder and CEOat Momotar Apotheca.
Six years ago, she foundherself looking back on a decade
of work in the commercialbeauty world as a photographer,
feeling slightly unfulfilled.
While she still had her passionfor photography, Lindsay knew
it was time for a change aroundthis time.
She was experiencing new andrecurrent issues with conditions
(01:12):
such as UTIs, yeast infections,and bacterial vaginosis.
So some very personal thingsand challenging things.
She grew exceedingly tired ofthe ineffective solutions on
offer.
She started to wonder, what aresome natural, organic, and
inclusive products in thefeminine care industry?
And then she did a fun thing.
(01:34):
She turned her body into avaginal wellness DIY project and
teamed up with her partner,Taylor, who had a biology and
sustainability background.
They set out to make effectiveand inclusive products that
could address the symptoms aswell as the stigma associated
with antiquated feminine care.
Lindsay, today we're going touse a thought record to describe
(01:58):
dive into an experience you hadnot too long ago when you were
at a gay bar.
So I'm going to go ahead andshare my screen.
So I've got several columnshere and I filled out the first
one.
This is a situation when you'reat a gay bar and a queer woman
asks you, why are you here?
And I'm guessing theimplication here is she's
(02:19):
assuming you are straight.
Yes.
Tell us a bit about that nightand maybe a little background
on...
Who are you?
What is your sexual identity?
How do you present in theworld?
Do you get erased slash misreadregularly?
Lindsay (02:36):
Yeah, so my background, generally speaking, I grew up
in an extremely heteronormativecommunity.
I myself considered myselfheterosexual.
I think or was in massivedenial now that I think and look
back to it.
Yes.
I moved to New York at 18 andimmediately started dating women
(02:59):
and hooking up with women stillin primarily heteronormative
romantic relationships, but alot of romantic sexual
relationships.
Unknown (03:09):
Yeah.
Lindsay (03:10):
I can present very straight passing and I think I
also can rock some really queerlooks.
But I think often people placeme in a very straight place as I
tend to present pretty femme.
And yeah, like that only becamehard for me once I really kind
(03:40):
of attached myself to the queercommunity and felt incredibly
affirmed.
A couple years later, I endedup having my first romantic
girlfriend for multiple yearsand realized how important those
spaces were to me, to beaffirmed and to truly feel
myself.
So now these years later, as Istill present very similarly,
(04:00):
being connected to the communityis increasingly important as I
continue to date across allgenders.
Rahim (04:08):
Okay.
And so set the stage for us.
What bar were you at?
What time of night was it?
What day of the week?
Lindsay (04:17):
I was at a gay bar in San Diego.
It was a big Mariah CareyChristmas show.
It was so fun.
I was dressed up super extra,but pretty femme, but like lots
of glitter.
Like we were, it was, it wasprobably midnight and it We were
surrounded by a lot of people.
I have a lot of community that,I even have a lot of queer men
(04:37):
that are also straight passingin my life.
I think that is maybe somethingthat comes with being in San
Diego as compared to mycommunity that is in New York.
And yeah, a random woman cameup to me and asked me, why am I
here?
And it wasn't friendly.
It wasn't like, hey, why areyou here?
It was like, why are you here?
(04:58):
Or that's the way I took it.
Rahim (05:00):
Totally.
What feelings came up for youinitially?
I imagine you were defensive.
Lindsay (05:07):
Definitely defensive.
That is first and foremost.
Anger passes very quick, and itbrings me to a place where I'm
kind of sad, right?
I'm like, ugh, you're right.
Why am I here?
And so that feels likeself-doubt.
Rahim (05:21):
Does it bring up shame, do you think, or embarrassment?
Lindsay (05:27):
I think shame, imposter syndrome, if those are related.
Rahim (05:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good list of feelings.
Any other feelings?
You have defensive, angry, sad,self-doubt, shame, imposter.
Lindsay (05:45):
Maybe frustration, definitely.
Rahim (05:49):
Yeah.
Lindsay, let's go through andlet's...
rate the intensity of each ofthese feelings on a scale of one
to 10.
So 10 is like, it's prettyintense.
One, not intense at all.
How defensive were you?
One to 10.
Lindsay (06:06):
I would say defensive is an eight.
Anger is a four.
Sadness is a four.
Self-doubt is a seven.
Shame is a seven.
Seven.
No, shame is a five.
Imposter syndrome is a seven.
Frustration is a seven.
Rahim (06:28):
Okay.
Are there any other feelingsthat we might have missed in
this column, like feelingrighteous or...
Lindsay (06:40):
Righteous is an interesting one.
Like, you know, I...
you know, if righteous isconnected to validity and my
response going to, yes, I can behere.
Rahim (06:55):
Yeah.
So righteous would be kind oflevel like five?
Lindsay (07:00):
Yeah, that sounds right.
Rahim (07:04):
Okay.
Now we're talking about yourreactions.
What was your reaction?
What did you do in that moment?
Lindsay (07:08):
I, you know, I turn around and ask the question,
why?
You know, what do you mean?
Speaker 01 (07:15):
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay (07:16):
I think this is part of me trying to be level is I'm
trying to understand why she'sasking this before I jump to
conclusions, before I getdefensive.
This is not the first time thishas happened, whether it was
about me or, as I mentioned,some of the maybe questioning
queer friends I have.
(07:36):
It was directly to me, so Itried to be level-headed.
Why is she asking?
Rahim (07:44):
And I'm thinking here, you asked, well, why are you
asking?
But I don't know that you'rebeing curious.
I imagine you're beingassertive, like you're
challenging her a bit.
Lindsay (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
There's something about me,obviously, not answering that
question in a straight line.
way, though was she asking itin a straight way?
Rahim (08:16):
No, she wasn't.
Lindsay (08:17):
Yeah, like meant to be rhetorical, probably.
Rahim (08:21):
Yes.
Okay.
Lindsay (08:23):
So I maybe was leading her where she was at a little
bit.
Rahim (08:27):
Yeah, totally.
You were matching her tone.
Yeah.
So, look, we could quickly goto a place where we would say
the other person is in thewrong.
And then we're not doing athought record.
We are doing problem solving,right?
We're saying, here are myoptions.
I can respond in option A, B,and C.
(08:49):
And let's evaluate thoseoptions and then decide which
way to move forward.
But because we're doing athought record, we are going to
try to focus on the parts of youthat that didn't feel so good.
Because my assumption is thatit activated parts of you that
don't always feel good, thatmaybe you have questioned
(09:11):
yourself or that have beendifficult.
Lindsay (09:13):
100%.
Rahim (09:15):
So when we say you felt self-doubt, tell me a thought
connected to the self-doubt.
Lindsay (09:24):
That I'm not queer enough.
That I don't deserve to bethere.
that I am tokenizing acommunity that is not my own.
I'm there for fun and it was aspecial night and I shouldn't be
(09:47):
there because I am not thatperson.
Rahim (09:52):
Wow.
And so that encapsulates, Ithink, self-doubt and imposter
syndrome.
Tell me about the sadness.
What are the thoughts connectedto sadness?
Lindsay (10:06):
I think it's because as someone who is bisexual, you're
not straight enough and you'renot gay enough is how that
feels.
And I, yeah, I don't want tohave to consider, I don't want
to have to, I don't want to feelthat way, you know?
Rahim (10:27):
Yeah.
And so in a sense, they're,Like, I imagine there's a
question or thought around like,if this isn't my place, where
is my place?
Or I have no place to go.
Lindsay (10:43):
Yeah, totally.
You don't see yourselfreflected in the community or
the community you thought youcould be safe and is no longer
safe.
Rahim (10:56):
I wonder if it took you to a headspace where you were
thinking, well, if this is arecurring thing and I'm not
going to fit in here, What doesthat mean for your future?
Lindsay (11:04):
Probably resorting to old, resorting to things that
maybe don't affirm me.
Rahim (11:16):
Like?
Lindsay (11:18):
Not honoring my wants and needs.
For me, like my intro to datingwomen was, or hooking up with
women and being attracted towomen was porn.
And I would like watch, youknow, a lot of like, you know,
gay porn.
And it was like, oh, this isit.
This is, I'm good.
But, you know, I would usealcohol to then be a conduit to
(11:43):
doing these things in real life.
And I would hopefully justchalk it up to that.
You know, like I didn't, Ididn't give myself the chance
feel the way I felt.
Rahim (12:08):
When we think about like, I'm not queer enough or I don't
deserve to be here.
There's a part of me thatthinks, well, maybe in the, like
the consequence for the futureis that I would have to go back
to either drinking to be lessaware of the exclusion or or I
(12:36):
need to hide my sexuality?
Lindsay (12:38):
Yeah, I think it would be like numbing it down, trying
to fit in into a community thatI made a very clear, I literally
moved 3000 miles away from.
Rahim (12:50):
Ah, where did you grow up that you moved away from?
Lindsay (12:55):
San Diego, which
Rahim (12:56):
is where I was.
Oh, okay, that was yourhometown, I see.
Lindsay (12:59):
So I was home visiting for the holidays and I think
that's part of it in that, I wasin a place that never felt
affirming and I was seeking thatand I've been trying to explore
finding community there andnot, you know, canceling an
entire city, an entire park.
Rahim (13:19):
Yes.
There's a thought here aboutlike how far you've come and
it's literally geographically,right?
I've come really far for...
acceptance.
And I'm going to write inbrackets, it's geographic and
emotional distance.
And I still can't count on it.
Lindsay (13:41):
Yeah.
Rahim (13:42):
Okay.
We've got a slew of automaticthoughts.
And what I usually do with theautomatic thoughts is I ask
follow-up questions to try todistill them a bit more.
And the way I ask follow-up islike, if this particular
statement is true, what doesthat say about you?
What does it say about otherpeople?
What could it mean for thefuture?
(14:03):
If this were to continue, whatwould the consequence be?
So here are the automaticthoughts and the further
thoughts that we've distilled.
So I'm not queer enough, Idon't deserve to be here.
I'll need to numb myself to fitin or to not be bothered.
I don't have a place to go.
(14:38):
Queer places don't necessarilyfeel safe for me.
So, Lindsay, have a look atsome of these automatic
thoughts.
And I want us to identify onethat feels most salient or
prominent that's driving some ofthe difficult feelings you're
having.
I
Lindsay (14:56):
actually think the one that elicits the strongest
reaction is that I'm tokenizinga community that's not my own.
And I think it's because of,one, it connects very much to
the work that I do.
I am...
constantly trying to createsafe spaces for folks within my
(15:17):
work at Momotaro Apotheca, beingthat we don't use gendered
language, all of these things.
It's literally the work, likeright now at this point, like my
life's work.
And our internal bias and ourprivilege and stuff all play
into how I act at work and thethings we do.
Speaker 01 (15:40):
And
Lindsay (15:42):
I'd like to think I carry those things through.
I do carry those things into mypersonal life, but this one is
particularly hard because itfeels connected to my existence,
right?
Like just by my existence,
Speaker 01 (15:56):
I
Lindsay (15:56):
am potentially not enough and making people around
me feel like shit.
Rahim (16:05):
So Thank you for sharing that.
You've almost jumped to one ofthe last columns, which is about
alternative thoughts.
I want us to hang on to thatbecause I think there's some
really profound things that aregoing to come out.
I want us to take thestatement, so I'm tokenizing a
community that's not my own.
I'm just like the people Iexperience violence from.
(16:26):
And I want us to just evaluatethat for a moment.
So That thought didn't comefrom nowhere, right?
And so first I want to ask,what evidence do you have in
your own life that supports thatidea, that you are tokenizing,
or that you are just like thepeople you experience violence
from?
And this could be in a smallway, it could be in a symbolic
(16:47):
way, it could be technical.
Lindsay (16:48):
Yeah, like I dress pretty femme when I'm out with,
if I'm out with like a ciswoman, you know, heterosexual
man, like, we don't, we receivevery different treatment than I
do if I was out, say, with my,like, ex-girlfriend, you know?
Rahim (17:10):
Okay, yeah, that's a great example.
Any other pieces of evidence?
Lindsay (17:15):
You know, I know that I receive, I have some privilege
in that, like, I can fade intothe background if I need to.
And that's, you know.
Rahim (17:29):
Okay.
I'm going to move us to thenext column.
These are pieces of evidencethat don't support your hot
thought, the prominent salientthought.
So this is evidence that you'renot tokenizing a community
(17:50):
that's not your own or that thiscommunity is in fact your own.
So help me with evidence thatsuggests the opposite of the
automatic thoughts that webolded.
Lindsay (18:04):
I mean, those feel objective, right?
You know, I was in arelationship for three years
with a woman.
It's the longest romanticrelationship I've ever had in my
life.
Rahim (18:15):
Yeah.
I mean, you seem to havealluded to like a kind of
awareness.
Like you're saying, I'm notsubjected to the same kind of
violence other people in thecommunity might be.
I think that awareness alonemakes it difficult to tokenize,
doesn't it?
Lindsay (18:31):
You would hope so.
Rahim (18:34):
So I'm going to say evidence that doesn't support
the hot thought would be like Iinvest in ongoing reflection and
awareness about my queercommunity.
Does that fit?
Lindsay (18:55):
Yeah, sure.
Rahim (18:57):
All right, Lindsay.
We're at the second last columnand this one is the alternative
thought.
So we're really speaking toyour self-doubt here and we're
speaking to you in an affirmingway and in a balanced way,
right?
So when you think I'm just,there's a moment where you say,
(19:19):
I'm just like the people Iexperienced violence from,
what's your alternative,especially in this context
across from this woman?
Lindsay (19:27):
For me, I want to approach the situation with
gentleness, right?
I understand how this personcould be viewing someone who
could seem heteronormative andperceive violence there.
(19:48):
It is important for me to kindof like debunk that with
thoughtfulness rather thanaggression.
So even defensiveness doesn'tfeel like the right path all the
(20:08):
time.
Yeah,
Rahim (20:13):
I can appreciate the other person's concerns.
So I want to be less defensive,but I think you're saying, you
know, from what I heard earlier,but I also want to stand my
ground.
Lindsay (20:28):
Yeah.
I, yeah.
I mean, I think it's importantjust because of my own journey
into this space that, you know,it makes me think about
gatekeeping, you know, in a bit,a bit, right.
Like, especially with, youknow, the queer men in my life
who didn't come out till lateror are still investigating their
(20:51):
sexuality and or expression, Iknow that the gatekeeping is
such a big piece for them.
Rahim (20:57):
Yes.
Yes.
Something else you talked aboutearlier, which was about your
job and the kind of work you doand the safe spaces you create.
That seems like that's verymuch a context you created
because you personallyexperienced an unmet need or an
(21:19):
unmet, yeah, an unmet need.
And while your workplace thenbecomes like this haven of
safety, I think you werereminded that that kind of
psychological safety isn'tavailable everywhere you go.
No.
Lindsay (21:36):
And it's, you know, with Momotaro and the work we
do, like, It's in everydaythings, it's in the language we
use.
Momotaro doesn't use genderedlanguage because your vagina
does not have to be feminine.
Those create barriers to entryto very affirming, sometimes
(22:02):
medical needs to emotionalneeds.
and i think yeah i mean i thinkthat stuff is very important
Rahim (22:13):
so i'm thinking an alternative thought here would
be you know this woman is askingyou this question you have a
rush of self-doubt impostersyndrome frustration and you
you're reminding yourself justbecause i challenge norms in my
daily work um that doesn't meanum i am
Lindsay (22:34):
that person I think there's a lot of self-doubt
connected to, or not self-doubt,but a lot of shame connected to
my upbringing.
And I think people that looklike me can be incredibly
fucking violent.
And, you know, like theblonde-haired, blue-eyed, like,
(23:01):
just, yeah, like the community Igrew up with, it was incredibly
violent and hateful.
And...
And I, yeah, I mean, I carry alot of that with me in terms of
not feeling, there's like a lotof inferiority complex attached
(23:21):
to that.
We're kind of like going off ona tangent.
Rahim (23:23):
No, no, no, no.
It's useful because I thinkthis is a big part of your
identity and that got activatedin this moment.
And it's connected to childhoodand where you grew up and where
you moved.
And when I think about abalanced thought here, what
makes a balance is saying peoplewho look like me can be
harmful.
And I've experienced that iswhat you're saying.
(23:45):
Yeah.
Lindsay (23:48):
And maybe my fear is that somewhere deep down, I am
just like them.
Rahim (23:52):
Yeah.
And that is something you putin the alternative, sorry, what
you put in the automaticthought, right?
I could be just like the peopleI experienced violence from.
So what's a balanced thing totell yourself here around how
you use power, how you're goingto connect with this individual,
how you engage with others?
(24:15):
I'm thinking about somethingthat reassures you in that way.
Lindsay (24:23):
It reassures me that because you know this isn't new
this isn't experimental for meit's funny I don't use the work
like the work with Momotaro asas necessarily a marker of my
(24:43):
goodwill towards the queercommunity because I mean that's
connected to capitalism and whyI feel like Can't be valid
again.
Another piece.
Rahim (24:58):
Okay.
So I've got a couple of thingshere.
Let's start from the top.
So I can appreciate the otherperson's concerns.
So I want to be less defensive,but I also want to stand my
ground.
Just because I challenge normsin my daily work, that doesn't
mean people see that about me.
Now, this next one I piecedtogether from stuff you were
saying, but let me know if it'snot accurate.
People who look like me can beharmful.
(25:20):
I've experienced that.
But I have practiced withreassuring other queer people
and myself about who I reallyam.
And the last one was, I getaffirmation from Momotaro, but I
might not get that in otherplaces.
Do these feel helpfulalternative thoughts?
Lindsay (25:41):
Yes.
And they also connect to likedeeper wormholes, right?
Like I think about the last oneand it connects me to some
toxicity within the queercommunity.
I'm like, you know.
Rahim (25:57):
The queer community can also be a source of toxicity.
Lindsay (26:06):
Yes.
So I shouldn't expect thatlike, yeah, this one, that every
person there is going to bethis like shiny, happy rainbow
flag, which we know is not real.
Rahim (26:18):
Yeah, so I can't expect all queers to be great.
Lindsay (26:25):
To be nice.
Rahim (26:26):
And all straights to be bad.
Lindsay (26:28):
Yes.
Rahim (26:30):
Okay, so my question here, my next question is, which
of these alternative thoughtsreally speak to you?
Lindsay (26:42):
i think the first one is huge right like i get it you
know i get being defensive and iget uh you know we all have
internal bias we stereotypepeople you know if i'm making
out with what looks like astraight man in a queer bar or
something like i understand likeand but also like i you know i
(27:04):
am i am going to stand my groundand i think that's important to
help people have a moreexpansive perspective
Rahim (27:10):
Absolutely.
So we've got this great list ofalternative and more balanced
thoughts, and you really likethe first one.
I can appreciate the otherperson's concerns, so I want to
be less defensive, but I alsowant to stand my ground.
I'm wanting to re-rate thefeelings that we had before to
see if they're still there, ifthey've gone up in intensity or
(27:31):
gone down in intensity.
So let's try imposter syndrome.
Where's that at when you thinkabout your alternative thought?
Lindsay (27:39):
Let's go with the three.
Rahim (27:41):
Okay, what about frustration?
Lindsay (27:43):
Also probably a three.
Rahim (27:47):
Righteousness?
Lindsay (27:51):
It feels like the wrong word now.
It might.
Yeah, like righteousnessdoesn't feel...
Rahim (27:56):
What does it change to?
I
Lindsay (27:58):
just feel like it would feel...
I just feel like maybe it goesto confidence, right?
Like self-confidence, right?
Rahim (28:07):
Yeah, that's good.
So righteousness has beenconverted into self-confidence.
And I think there's a kind ofgroundedness to like a
preparation to connect orpreparation for a conversation.
Lindsay (28:20):
Yeah, groundedness feels much more accurate.
Rahim (28:25):
Okay.
How would you rate the shame?
Unknown (28:31):
Okay.
Lindsay (28:33):
Again, I feel like that feeling doesn't arise anymore.
Rahim (28:36):
I'm going to give it a one then.
And what about self-doubt?
Lindsay (28:42):
Yeah, I think it would be like a one or a two.
Rahim (28:48):
Sadness.
I wonder if this has stayed thesame or gone up even.
I
Lindsay (28:52):
think I would say it would stay the same, right?
Rahim (28:56):
Yeah.
And is the anger still there orhas the anger morphed into
something else?
Lindsay (29:04):
I think that anger and frustration live together, you
know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're, you're just like, it's,it's more like an annoyance
now.
You're like,
Rahim (29:13):
why
Lindsay (29:13):
are we still here?
Why are we still talking aboutthis?
Why is this an
Rahim (29:16):
issue?
Yes.
I like that.
So the anger is morphed intolike irritation and it's
connected to frustration.
And the defensiveness I'mhearing you, it's hard to put a
number too.
So I'll just leave it.
I'm looking at your thoughtrecord and like a number of
(29:38):
thoughts are coming up for me interms of like your experience,
but also the alternativethoughts.
So many of the alternativethoughts speak to me personally
too when I think about relativepower, where we fit in, where we
don't fit in.
And I'm curious to know fromyou, what has this process been
(30:01):
like?
And has it helped you gaininsight around the connection
between thoughts and feelings?
Lindsay (30:14):
Yeah, I think it's a really nice process.
We are so used to...
automatic response andexpectation and stereotype.
Rahim (30:23):
All in all, Lindsay, I want to thank you so much.
Thank you.
And that's the CBT dive fortoday.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
(30:45):
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
See you next time.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
Hi, Lindsay.
(00:26):
How are you?
Hi,
Lindsay (00:27):
Rahim.
I'm great.
Thank you.
How are you?
Rahim (00:29):
I'm good.
Lindsay, you and I met, youknow, online through your work
at Momotar Apotheca.
And you had invited me to writefor your blog.
And then I was in New York lastsummer and did a workshop.
And so I'm really glad we madethat connection.
I want to tell our viewers alittle bit about you.
(00:50):
Lindsay is the founder and CEOat Momotar Apotheca.
Six years ago, she foundherself looking back on a decade
of work in the commercialbeauty world as a photographer,
feeling slightly unfulfilled.
While she still had her passionfor photography, Lindsay knew
it was time for a change aroundthis time.
She was experiencing new andrecurrent issues with conditions
(01:12):
such as UTIs, yeast infections,and bacterial vaginosis.
So some very personal thingsand challenging things.
She grew exceedingly tired ofthe ineffective solutions on
offer.
She started to wonder, what aresome natural, organic, and
inclusive products in thefeminine care industry?
And then she did a fun thing.
(01:34):
She turned her body into avaginal wellness DIY project and
teamed up with her partner,Taylor, who had a biology and
sustainability background.
They set out to make effectiveand inclusive products that
could address the symptoms aswell as the stigma associated
with antiquated feminine care.
Lindsay, today we're going touse a thought record to describe
(01:58):
dive into an experience you hadnot too long ago when you were
at a gay bar.
So I'm going to go ahead andshare my screen.
So I've got several columnshere and I filled out the first
one.
This is a situation when you'reat a gay bar and a queer woman
asks you, why are you here?
And I'm guessing theimplication here is she's
(02:19):
assuming you are straight.
Yes.
Tell us a bit about that nightand maybe a little background
on...
Who are you?
What is your sexual identity?
How do you present in theworld?
Do you get erased slash misreadregularly?
Lindsay (02:36):
Yeah, so my background, generally speaking, I grew up
in an extremely heteronormativecommunity.
I myself considered myselfheterosexual.
I think or was in massivedenial now that I think and look
back to it.
Yes.
I moved to New York at 18 andimmediately started dating women
(02:59):
and hooking up with women stillin primarily heteronormative
romantic relationships, but alot of romantic sexual
relationships.
Unknown (03:09):
Yeah.
Lindsay (03:10):
I can present very straight passing and I think I
also can rock some really queerlooks.
But I think often people placeme in a very straight place as I
tend to present pretty femme.
And yeah, like that only becamehard for me once I really kind
(03:40):
of attached myself to the queercommunity and felt incredibly
affirmed.
A couple years later, I endedup having my first romantic
girlfriend for multiple yearsand realized how important those
spaces were to me, to beaffirmed and to truly feel
myself.
So now these years later, as Istill present very similarly,
(04:00):
being connected to the communityis increasingly important as I
continue to date across allgenders.
Rahim (04:08):
Okay.
And so set the stage for us.
What bar were you at?
What time of night was it?
What day of the week?
Lindsay (04:17):
I was at a gay bar in San Diego.
It was a big Mariah CareyChristmas show.
It was so fun.
I was dressed up super extra,but pretty femme, but like lots
of glitter.
Like we were, it was, it wasprobably midnight and it We were
surrounded by a lot of people.
I have a lot of community that,I even have a lot of queer men
(04:37):
that are also straight passingin my life.
I think that is maybe somethingthat comes with being in San
Diego as compared to mycommunity that is in New York.
And yeah, a random woman cameup to me and asked me, why am I
here?
And it wasn't friendly.
It wasn't like, hey, why areyou here?
It was like, why are you here?
(04:58):
Or that's the way I took it.
Rahim (05:00):
Totally.
What feelings came up for youinitially?
I imagine you were defensive.
Lindsay (05:07):
Definitely defensive.
That is first and foremost.
Anger passes very quick, and itbrings me to a place where I'm
kind of sad, right?
I'm like, ugh, you're right.
Why am I here?
And so that feels likeself-doubt.
Rahim (05:21):
Does it bring up shame, do you think, or embarrassment?
Lindsay (05:27):
I think shame, imposter syndrome, if those are related.
Rahim (05:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good list of feelings.
Any other feelings?
You have defensive, angry, sad,self-doubt, shame, imposter.
Lindsay (05:45):
Maybe frustration, definitely.
Rahim (05:49):
Yeah.
Lindsay, let's go through andlet's...
rate the intensity of each ofthese feelings on a scale of one
to 10.
So 10 is like, it's prettyintense.
One, not intense at all.
How defensive were you?
One to 10.
Lindsay (06:06):
I would say defensive is an eight.
Anger is a four.
Sadness is a four.
Self-doubt is a seven.
Shame is a seven.
Seven.
No, shame is a five.
Imposter syndrome is a seven.
Frustration is a seven.
Rahim (06:28):
Okay.
Are there any other feelingsthat we might have missed in
this column, like feelingrighteous or...
Lindsay (06:40):
Righteous is an interesting one.
Like, you know, I...
you know, if righteous isconnected to validity and my
response going to, yes, I can behere.
Rahim (06:55):
Yeah.
So righteous would be kind oflevel like five?
Lindsay (07:00):
Yeah, that sounds right.
Rahim (07:04):
Okay.
Now we're talking about yourreactions.
What was your reaction?
What did you do in that moment?
Lindsay (07:08):
I, you know, I turn around and ask the question,
why?
You know, what do you mean?
Speaker 01 (07:15):
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay (07:16):
I think this is part of me trying to be level is I'm
trying to understand why she'sasking this before I jump to
conclusions, before I getdefensive.
This is not the first time thishas happened, whether it was
about me or, as I mentioned,some of the maybe questioning
queer friends I have.
(07:36):
It was directly to me, so Itried to be level-headed.
Why is she asking?
Rahim (07:44):
And I'm thinking here, you asked, well, why are you
asking?
But I don't know that you'rebeing curious.
I imagine you're beingassertive, like you're
challenging her a bit.
Lindsay (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
There's something about me,obviously, not answering that
question in a straight line.
way, though was she asking itin a straight way?
Rahim (08:16):
No, she wasn't.
Lindsay (08:17):
Yeah, like meant to be rhetorical, probably.
Rahim (08:21):
Yes.
Okay.
Lindsay (08:23):
So I maybe was leading her where she was at a little
bit.
Rahim (08:27):
Yeah, totally.
You were matching her tone.
Yeah.
So, look, we could quickly goto a place where we would say
the other person is in thewrong.
And then we're not doing athought record.
We are doing problem solving,right?
We're saying, here are myoptions.
I can respond in option A, B,and C.
(08:49):
And let's evaluate thoseoptions and then decide which
way to move forward.
But because we're doing athought record, we are going to
try to focus on the parts of youthat that didn't feel so good.
Because my assumption is thatit activated parts of you that
don't always feel good, thatmaybe you have questioned
(09:11):
yourself or that have beendifficult.
Lindsay (09:13):
100%.
Rahim (09:15):
So when we say you felt self-doubt, tell me a thought
connected to the self-doubt.
Lindsay (09:24):
That I'm not queer enough.
That I don't deserve to bethere.
that I am tokenizing acommunity that is not my own.
I'm there for fun and it was aspecial night and I shouldn't be
(09:47):
there because I am not thatperson.
Rahim (09:52):
Wow.
And so that encapsulates, Ithink, self-doubt and imposter
syndrome.
Tell me about the sadness.
What are the thoughts connectedto sadness?
Lindsay (10:06):
I think it's because as someone who is bisexual, you're
not straight enough and you'renot gay enough is how that
feels.
And I, yeah, I don't want tohave to consider, I don't want
to have to, I don't want to feelthat way, you know?
Rahim (10:27):
Yeah.
And so in a sense, they're,Like, I imagine there's a
question or thought around like,if this isn't my place, where
is my place?
Or I have no place to go.
Lindsay (10:43):
Yeah, totally.
You don't see yourselfreflected in the community or
the community you thought youcould be safe and is no longer
safe.
Rahim (10:56):
I wonder if it took you to a headspace where you were
thinking, well, if this is arecurring thing and I'm not
going to fit in here, What doesthat mean for your future?
Lindsay (11:04):
Probably resorting to old, resorting to things that
maybe don't affirm me.
Rahim (11:16):
Like?
Lindsay (11:18):
Not honoring my wants and needs.
For me, like my intro to datingwomen was, or hooking up with
women and being attracted towomen was porn.
And I would like watch, youknow, a lot of like, you know,
gay porn.
And it was like, oh, this isit.
This is, I'm good.
But, you know, I would usealcohol to then be a conduit to
(11:43):
doing these things in real life.
And I would hopefully justchalk it up to that.
You know, like I didn't, Ididn't give myself the chance
feel the way I felt.
Rahim (12:08):
When we think about like, I'm not queer enough or I don't
deserve to be here.
There's a part of me thatthinks, well, maybe in the, like
the consequence for the futureis that I would have to go back
to either drinking to be lessaware of the exclusion or or I
(12:36):
need to hide my sexuality?
Lindsay (12:38):
Yeah, I think it would be like numbing it down, trying
to fit in into a community thatI made a very clear, I literally
moved 3000 miles away from.
Rahim (12:50):
Ah, where did you grow up that you moved away from?
Lindsay (12:55):
San Diego, which
Rahim (12:56):
is where I was.
Oh, okay, that was yourhometown, I see.
Lindsay (12:59):
So I was home visiting for the holidays and I think
that's part of it in that, I wasin a place that never felt
affirming and I was seeking thatand I've been trying to explore
finding community there andnot, you know, canceling an
entire city, an entire park.
Rahim (13:19):
Yes.
There's a thought here aboutlike how far you've come and
it's literally geographically,right?
I've come really far for...
acceptance.
And I'm going to write inbrackets, it's geographic and
emotional distance.
And I still can't count on it.
Lindsay (13:41):
Yeah.
Rahim (13:42):
Okay.
We've got a slew of automaticthoughts.
And what I usually do with theautomatic thoughts is I ask
follow-up questions to try todistill them a bit more.
And the way I ask follow-up islike, if this particular
statement is true, what doesthat say about you?
What does it say about otherpeople?
What could it mean for thefuture?
(14:03):
If this were to continue, whatwould the consequence be?
So here are the automaticthoughts and the further
thoughts that we've distilled.
So I'm not queer enough, Idon't deserve to be here.
I'll need to numb myself to fitin or to not be bothered.
I don't have a place to go.
(14:38):
Queer places don't necessarilyfeel safe for me.
So, Lindsay, have a look atsome of these automatic
thoughts.
And I want us to identify onethat feels most salient or
prominent that's driving some ofthe difficult feelings you're
having.
I
Lindsay (14:56):
actually think the one that elicits the strongest
reaction is that I'm tokenizinga community that's not my own.
And I think it's because of,one, it connects very much to
the work that I do.
I am...
constantly trying to createsafe spaces for folks within my
(15:17):
work at Momotaro Apotheca, beingthat we don't use gendered
language, all of these things.
It's literally the work, likeright now at this point, like my
life's work.
And our internal bias and ourprivilege and stuff all play
into how I act at work and thethings we do.
Speaker 01 (15:40):
And
Lindsay (15:42):
I'd like to think I carry those things through.
I do carry those things into mypersonal life, but this one is
particularly hard because itfeels connected to my existence,
right?
Like just by my existence,
Speaker 01 (15:56):
I
Lindsay (15:56):
am potentially not enough and making people around
me feel like shit.
Rahim (16:05):
So Thank you for sharing that.
You've almost jumped to one ofthe last columns, which is about
alternative thoughts.
I want us to hang on to thatbecause I think there's some
really profound things that aregoing to come out.
I want us to take thestatement, so I'm tokenizing a
community that's not my own.
I'm just like the people Iexperience violence from.
(16:26):
And I want us to just evaluatethat for a moment.
So That thought didn't comefrom nowhere, right?
And so first I want to ask,what evidence do you have in
your own life that supports thatidea, that you are tokenizing,
or that you are just like thepeople you experience violence
from?
And this could be in a smallway, it could be in a symbolic
(16:47):
way, it could be technical.
Lindsay (16:48):
Yeah, like I dress pretty femme when I'm out with,
if I'm out with like a ciswoman, you know, heterosexual
man, like, we don't, we receivevery different treatment than I
do if I was out, say, with my,like, ex-girlfriend, you know?
Rahim (17:10):
Okay, yeah, that's a great example.
Any other pieces of evidence?
Lindsay (17:15):
You know, I know that I receive, I have some privilege
in that, like, I can fade intothe background if I need to.
And that's, you know.
Rahim (17:29):
Okay.
I'm going to move us to thenext column.
These are pieces of evidencethat don't support your hot
thought, the prominent salientthought.
So this is evidence that you'renot tokenizing a community
(17:50):
that's not your own or that thiscommunity is in fact your own.
So help me with evidence thatsuggests the opposite of the
automatic thoughts that webolded.
Lindsay (18:04):
I mean, those feel objective, right?
You know, I was in arelationship for three years
with a woman.
It's the longest romanticrelationship I've ever had in my
life.
Rahim (18:15):
Yeah.
I mean, you seem to havealluded to like a kind of
awareness.
Like you're saying, I'm notsubjected to the same kind of
violence other people in thecommunity might be.
I think that awareness alonemakes it difficult to tokenize,
doesn't it?
Lindsay (18:31):
You would hope so.
Rahim (18:34):
So I'm going to say evidence that doesn't support
the hot thought would be like Iinvest in ongoing reflection and
awareness about my queercommunity.
Does that fit?
Lindsay (18:55):
Yeah, sure.
Rahim (18:57):
All right, Lindsay.
We're at the second last columnand this one is the alternative
thought.
So we're really speaking toyour self-doubt here and we're
speaking to you in an affirmingway and in a balanced way,
right?
So when you think I'm just,there's a moment where you say,
(19:19):
I'm just like the people Iexperienced violence from,
what's your alternative,especially in this context
across from this woman?
Lindsay (19:27):
For me, I want to approach the situation with
gentleness, right?
I understand how this personcould be viewing someone who
could seem heteronormative andperceive violence there.
(19:48):
It is important for me to kindof like debunk that with
thoughtfulness rather thanaggression.
So even defensiveness doesn'tfeel like the right path all the
(20:08):
time.
Yeah,
Rahim (20:13):
I can appreciate the other person's concerns.
So I want to be less defensive,but I think you're saying, you
know, from what I heard earlier,but I also want to stand my
ground.
Lindsay (20:28):
Yeah.
I, yeah.
I mean, I think it's importantjust because of my own journey
into this space that, you know,it makes me think about
gatekeeping, you know, in a bit,a bit, right.
Like, especially with, youknow, the queer men in my life
who didn't come out till lateror are still investigating their
(20:51):
sexuality and or expression, Iknow that the gatekeeping is
such a big piece for them.
Rahim (20:57):
Yes.
Yes.
Something else you talked aboutearlier, which was about your
job and the kind of work you doand the safe spaces you create.
That seems like that's verymuch a context you created
because you personallyexperienced an unmet need or an
(21:19):
unmet, yeah, an unmet need.
And while your workplace thenbecomes like this haven of
safety, I think you werereminded that that kind of
psychological safety isn'tavailable everywhere you go.
No.
Lindsay (21:36):
And it's, you know, with Momotaro and the work we
do, like, It's in everydaythings, it's in the language we
use.
Momotaro doesn't use genderedlanguage because your vagina
does not have to be feminine.
Those create barriers to entryto very affirming, sometimes
(22:02):
medical needs to emotionalneeds.
and i think yeah i mean i thinkthat stuff is very important
Rahim (22:13):
so i'm thinking an alternative thought here would
be you know this woman is askingyou this question you have a
rush of self-doubt impostersyndrome frustration and you
you're reminding yourself justbecause i challenge norms in my
daily work um that doesn't meanum i am
Lindsay (22:34):
that person I think there's a lot of self-doubt
connected to, or not self-doubt,but a lot of shame connected to
my upbringing.
And I think people that looklike me can be incredibly
fucking violent.
And, you know, like theblonde-haired, blue-eyed, like,
(23:01):
just, yeah, like the community Igrew up with, it was incredibly
violent and hateful.
And...
And I, yeah, I mean, I carry alot of that with me in terms of
not feeling, there's like a lotof inferiority complex attached
(23:21):
to that.
We're kind of like going off ona tangent.
Rahim (23:23):
No, no, no, no.
It's useful because I thinkthis is a big part of your
identity and that got activatedin this moment.
And it's connected to childhoodand where you grew up and where
you moved.
And when I think about abalanced thought here, what
makes a balance is saying peoplewho look like me can be
harmful.
And I've experienced that iswhat you're saying.
(23:45):
Yeah.
Lindsay (23:48):
And maybe my fear is that somewhere deep down, I am
just like them.
Rahim (23:52):
Yeah.
And that is something you putin the alternative, sorry, what
you put in the automaticthought, right?
I could be just like the peopleI experienced violence from.
So what's a balanced thing totell yourself here around how
you use power, how you're goingto connect with this individual,
how you engage with others?
(24:15):
I'm thinking about somethingthat reassures you in that way.
Lindsay (24:23):
It reassures me that because you know this isn't new
this isn't experimental for meit's funny I don't use the work
like the work with Momotaro asas necessarily a marker of my
(24:43):
goodwill towards the queercommunity because I mean that's
connected to capitalism and whyI feel like Can't be valid
again.
Another piece.
Rahim (24:58):
Okay.
So I've got a couple of thingshere.
Let's start from the top.
So I can appreciate the otherperson's concerns.
So I want to be less defensive,but I also want to stand my
ground.
Just because I challenge normsin my daily work, that doesn't
mean people see that about me.
Now, this next one I piecedtogether from stuff you were
saying, but let me know if it'snot accurate.
People who look like me can beharmful.
(25:20):
I've experienced that.
But I have practiced withreassuring other queer people
and myself about who I reallyam.
And the last one was, I getaffirmation from Momotaro, but I
might not get that in otherplaces.
Do these feel helpfulalternative thoughts?
Lindsay (25:41):
Yes.
And they also connect to likedeeper wormholes, right?
Like I think about the last oneand it connects me to some
toxicity within the queercommunity.
I'm like, you know.
Rahim (25:57):
The queer community can also be a source of toxicity.
Lindsay (26:06):
Yes.
So I shouldn't expect thatlike, yeah, this one, that every
person there is going to bethis like shiny, happy rainbow
flag, which we know is not real.
Rahim (26:18):
Yeah, so I can't expect all queers to be great.
Lindsay (26:25):
To be nice.
Rahim (26:26):
And all straights to be bad.
Lindsay (26:28):
Yes.
Rahim (26:30):
Okay, so my question here, my next question is, which
of these alternative thoughtsreally speak to you?
Lindsay (26:42):
i think the first one is huge right like i get it you
know i get being defensive and iget uh you know we all have
internal bias we stereotypepeople you know if i'm making
out with what looks like astraight man in a queer bar or
something like i understand likeand but also like i you know i
(27:04):
am i am going to stand my groundand i think that's important to
help people have a moreexpansive perspective
Rahim (27:10):
Absolutely.
So we've got this great list ofalternative and more balanced
thoughts, and you really likethe first one.
I can appreciate the otherperson's concerns, so I want to
be less defensive, but I alsowant to stand my ground.
I'm wanting to re-rate thefeelings that we had before to
see if they're still there, ifthey've gone up in intensity or
(27:31):
gone down in intensity.
So let's try imposter syndrome.
Where's that at when you thinkabout your alternative thought?
Lindsay (27:39):
Let's go with the three.
Rahim (27:41):
Okay, what about frustration?
Lindsay (27:43):
Also probably a three.
Rahim (27:47):
Righteousness?
Lindsay (27:51):
It feels like the wrong word now.
It might.
Yeah, like righteousnessdoesn't feel...
Rahim (27:56):
What does it change to?
I
Lindsay (27:58):
just feel like it would feel...
I just feel like maybe it goesto confidence, right?
Like self-confidence, right?
Rahim (28:07):
Yeah, that's good.
So righteousness has beenconverted into self-confidence.
And I think there's a kind ofgroundedness to like a
preparation to connect orpreparation for a conversation.
Lindsay (28:20):
Yeah, groundedness feels much more accurate.
Rahim (28:25):
Okay.
How would you rate the shame?
Unknown (28:31):
Okay.
Lindsay (28:33):
Again, I feel like that feeling doesn't arise anymore.
Rahim (28:36):
I'm going to give it a one then.
And what about self-doubt?
Lindsay (28:42):
Yeah, I think it would be like a one or a two.
Rahim (28:48):
Sadness.
I wonder if this has stayed thesame or gone up even.
I
Lindsay (28:52):
think I would say it would stay the same, right?
Rahim (28:56):
Yeah.
And is the anger still there orhas the anger morphed into
something else?
Lindsay (29:04):
I think that anger and frustration live together, you
know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're, you're just like, it's,it's more like an annoyance
now.
You're like,
Rahim (29:13):
why
Lindsay (29:13):
are we still here?
Why are we still talking aboutthis?
Why is this an
Rahim (29:16):
issue?
Yes.
I like that.
So the anger is morphed intolike irritation and it's
connected to frustration.
And the defensiveness I'mhearing you, it's hard to put a
number too.
So I'll just leave it.
I'm looking at your thoughtrecord and like a number of
(29:38):
thoughts are coming up for me interms of like your experience,
but also the alternativethoughts.
So many of the alternativethoughts speak to me personally
too when I think about relativepower, where we fit in, where we
don't fit in.
And I'm curious to know fromyou, what has this process been
(30:01):
like?
And has it helped you gaininsight around the connection
between thoughts and feelings?
Lindsay (30:14):
Yeah, I think it's a really nice process.
We are so used to...
automatic response andexpectation and stereotype.
Rahim (30:23):
All in all, Lindsay, I want to thank you so much.
Thank you.
And that's the CBT dive fortoday.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
(30:45):
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
See you next time.
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